The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 324. The Protest in Iran and What It Means | Masih Alinejad

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

Dr Jordan B Peterson and Masih Alinejad discuss the current situation in Iran, the growing unrest as revolution beckons, and the need for support from the world stage. Alinejad recounts her personal experiences growing up in Iran, being exiled, and multiple kidnapping attempts orchestrated by the current regime.Masih Alinejad is an Iranian-American journalist, author, and women's rights activist. Alinejad is an outspoken critic of the Iranian government’s human rights abuses and its treatment of women and political opponents. She is the founder of the My Stealthy Freedom campaign against compulsory hijab. Since its launch in 2014 has become the largest civil disobedience campaign for women’s rights in the history of the Islamic Republic. Alinejad currently lives in exile in New York City under FBI protection since a coordinated kidnapping attempt by the Islamic Republic of Iran's Intelligence Ministry was foiled in 2021. 

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and oppressive treatment of women, she's the founder of the My Stealthy Freedom campaign against compulsory hijab, which since its launch in 2014 has become the largest civil disobedience campaign for women's rights in the history of Islamic Republic. In 2022, the American Jewish Committee awarded her the Moral Courage award for speaking out fearlessly in support of the Iranian people who are still being oppressed to put it mildly by their own institutions. She currently lives in exile in New York City under FBI protection since a coordinated kidnapping attempt by the Islamic Republic of Iran's intelligence ministry was foiled in 2021.

Hello, Macy. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. Thank you so much for having me Jordan. Yeah, so I don't know. Are you a brave person? Are you a foolhardy person? Can you just not control yourself? Like you're putting yourself at an awful lot of risk here and so I will walk through why that is and

Why do you think you're compelled to do that and it looks like you'd be doing that to some degree almost your whole life Right, even as a very young person. Yeah, So what is it about you that makes you unable to, what would you say, behave properly? That might be a way of thinking about it. That's funny. I mean, when you put it in that way, that maybe you cannot control yourself or you're really brave.

This is what my mom used to say that. Because I remember that in my tiny village, I was a troublemaker and people were like telling me that you cannot control yourself. And that was the way that they were actually describing my, you know, my attitude towards, I've been told all my life what to do, what not to do. So I had two options in my tiny village to listen to those who make decisions over my

body, or everything, or to be a rabble. So for me being brave or being fearless, it's something that I grew up with it. You know, otherwise I had to feel miserable. Every single day here in America, people might take every single freedom for granted, but I had to fight for every single thing that I have now. Everything, everything.

You know, I had a little brother who was able to jump in the river in my beautiful village who was able to go to stadium, to play football, to go everywhere that he wanted, to dance, to sing, everything. But I was banned from doing all those activities just because of being a girl. So that's why I had to fight for every single thing and now I had to be brave.

You know? Yeah, well, it is clear that most people under those conditions will submit to being obedient and to stay silent. And certainly, that's been the case in Iran for 30 years, almost 25 years anyway since the revolution. And although obviously more and more women are speaking out now, and of course more and more Iranians in general, but the run of the mill situation after the revolution was that most women bore their, what would you say, forced submission and something approximating silence. And so, and that is the normal run of things. And I do think there is something temperamental about it.

I mean, when you, when I read the accounts of your childhood, it's pretty obvious that right from the beginning, you are a hard person to push down. And it's very interesting to see how different people react under different situations. Do you wanna walk us through your origins and talk about your early life a bit so that everybody understands where you came from

and what your life was like? So, and we'll talk about that in parallel with the political situation in Iran. Sure. I mean, to be honest, I don't think Iranian women can be like obedient at all. Women in the Middle East, I mean, all of them, they are rabble because to us, it's the way to get our dignity back, our identity back. There is a famous saying actually in Persian that if you want Iranian women to do something, tell them not to do.

So anyway, we'll practice our civil disobedience. And look, I was only two years old when this dynamic revolution happened. I remember I used to actually challenging my parents that why you overthrew the regime? And they were saying that because of poverty, we wanted to have a good life. And now what happened?

Poor or getting poorer every day. And the corruption, I mean only the relative of the mollas are getting richer. And I was actually challenging my fellow journalist activist editors that why did you overthrow the regime? Why did you were part of the revolution? And they were saying that because we wanted to gain more political freedom, what happened, the Islamic revolution became a revolution against women. So clearly, we lost all the freedom that we already had. Like, remember, allowed to go to stadium, remember, allowed to choose whether they want to wear a job or not.

Women were allowed to choose any kind want to wear a job or not, women were allowed to choose any kind of sports that they wanted to join. We had female judges, we had female ministers, we had female singers, Jordan, in 21st century, now women are not allowed to sing. So you see, didn't gain any political freedom, but we lost all the social freedom that we already had. So that is why for women in Iran, every single day, it's like you are part of the war that has been imposed on us by the clerics, by the Mullahs, by the Islamic Republic. And it's not a fair battle, it's not a fair war because they have guns and bullets,

they have power, prison, money, they can execute you. We only have our body. We only have our voice. We only have our social media. And I had to use every single thing thing like my body, my voice, my hair, my social media to fight them back. So that is why I don't think Iranian women or women in the Middle East, women in Afghanistan as you see right now can accept everything.

I mean, our body became like a political platform for Taliban Islamic Republic and ISIS and they write their own ideology on our body and we have to carry it every day. We don't accept that. So that is why this isn't now nature. Let's walk through the situation in 1979. So I'm about 20 years older than you, I believe. And so I can remember a lot of what happened in that period. And in the west, the state that was run by the Shah of Iran was very unpopular, especially among left-wing activists. They regarded it as a corrupt petro-state and believed that the Shah was fundamentally an oppressive autocrat. And certainly by Western standards, his government could have been radically improved. But the consequences of the Iranian revolution, as you pointed out,

were certainly not what anyone had hoped for except the tiny minority of people who actually instigated the revolution. And so the world went in relationship to Iran from a the world went in relationship to Iran from a autocracy that was much more liberal in the manner that you described, especially in relationship to women, and where a fair bit of economic progress had been made, despite the flaws of the regime, to an unbelievably repressive theocratic state. And one of the things that you point out is that one of the elements of this Islamic revolution, a peculiar element, was the focus of repression on women. And so I'm very curious about that.

What do you think it was about the doctrine that drove the Iranian revolution, that caused the primary consequence, perhaps, or arguably at least, the primary consequence, perhaps, or arguably at least the primary consequence, to be the large-scale elimination of women from the from well from almost every form of freedom. What was it about the doctor and that produced that? Yeah, it's not only about women. Let me actually give you an example about how minority being oppressed right after the revolution mass executions happened. And I remember that when the Jews were being executed, people were saying that right after the revolution that we're not Jews, so we're not going to get involved.

Then Bahá'í minority got executed. Look, Abraham Ray C., the butcher of Iran, who is now the president, which we don't call it president, but he was in charge. He was the one actually who ordered massacre, mass executions. More than 5,000 people got executed by his order. And then women, and then women. So it's just, it's very heartbreaking. I cannot even believe that.

I'm sitting here in 21st century and talking to you and telling you the same person who ordered mass executions right after the revolution, the Islamic revolution, was the one welcomed here at the United Nation. I cannot believe that because he is actually the one right now, right now, saying that the young prisoners, the young protesters who were peacefully protesting over the brutal death of Massa Amini, the 20-year-old girl who got killed because of a little bit of her hair was visible. Now, all those protesters are in prison, and Abraham Ray C saying that we're going to be

tough with them. They have to see the punishment. So you see, back to 40 years ago, the whole world was supporting their revolution. They were actually congratulating the Islamic Republic right after the regime was overthrown. But now, many people, they blessing the Shah of Iran in the streets, and many people believed that, yes, of course there was something like, should be reformed, but not revolution. But now, we need a revolution. Many people in the West saying that, you know, buying, actually buying the wrong narrative of the Islamic Republic,

and it's a lobbyist and a apologist and saying that, let's wait for the reform. No, this is the time. We need a revolution because the Islamic Republic acting like an ISIS, like ISIS. I mean, two millions of Iranian people, women, minority, Islamic Republic is an ISIS with oil. ISIS just behead people, the Islamic Republic, hang people. ISIS took hostages like, you know,

this is what the Islamic Republic did 40 years ago when they took American diplomats hostage. Yes, of course they released them all, but they still, they still having women like hostage. We are, we are like hostage in the hand of the Islamic Republic. If we don't cover ourselves, we won't be able to get any kind of education or job or we won't exist if we don't cover our hair in Iran in 21st century. So it means the Islamic Republic took the whole nation, the

took Iran hostage. So you said this is ISIS and we have to understand that in 21st century, we have to overthrow the regime. A lot of what you write about in the in the early part of your book, that's the wind in my hair, is the increasing range of restrictions that you experienced as you grew up. You talk about when you were quite young playing with your brother, and having a reasonable amount of freedom when you were extremely young, but then as you grew up, and became more conscious as well, the number of things that you couldn't do started to increase, and your range of options started to decrease. And so maybe we could walk through that.

And I'm also curious, what do you think drives the antipathy towards female freedom that characterizes the Iranian state? Do you see that? Do you see the roots of that in something that's formally religious? Or do you see that as something more associated with, I don't even know how to understand it exactly

with a particular kind of man's terror of female attractiveness, or it's very mysterious to me that there's a whole culture predicated now, predicated on the oppression of its own women. It's like you're so afraid of your women, are you what are you afraid they're gonna leave you or are you afraid they're not gonna be attracted to you?

Have to control everything they do. And how did you develop a theory like that? And you said, there was some of that in your own family, is your father wasn't exactly an advocate for female freedom? Yeah, it's linked to religion. It is a religious dictatorship, to me and millions of other people. About my own family, my mom was able to choose what she wanted to wear before the revolution.

And I remember she was wearing colorful dress, colorful scarf, but immediately after the revolution, when you see her picture, you get shocked. I could only see my mom's nose. That's all. I mean, she was all black. So you see, that was the religious government. They took everything away from us, and they made men like the owner of the women and their family. So it's not, maybe for years and years I've been hearing that people saying that this is part of the Middle Eastern people's culture, like wearing hijab or not going to stadium

or not dancing, not singing, this is part of your culture. It's not, it is the culture of a religious dictatorship. So for millions of Iranians who experienced Sharia laws, it's very clear that the Islamic Republic, right after the revolution, tried to control the whole society through women. And that is why they use our body like their own political platform to write their manifest on it. See Afghanistan right now. What is the main picture of Afghanistan

which was being taken over by Taliban, covering women's face? What was the main image of women when they got, Yazidi women when they got free from ISIS? You remember the picture of women burning the compulsory valing. So you see for us, it's not about a small piece of cloth. When we talk about compulsory hijab, compulsory hijab is like the main pillar of religious dictatorship. It's like, as I always say,

it's like the Berlin Wall, you know? And that is why the Islamic Republic really like not willing to let it go, you know? They rather kill teenagers, but they don't wanna actually say that we're gonna get rid of morality police, we're gonna get rid of compulsory a job because they know that we, the women of Iran, are not just fighting to get rid of morality producer

compulsory job. We see this compulsory job like, like it's in the DNA of religious dictatorship. It's in the DNA of a gender or a partite regime. So for us, clearly, we want to get, we want separation between religious, religion, and politics. And this is the 21st century, and I don't think this is too much to us. Well, okay. So, okay. So, so there's the sharia law issue, there's the religious issue, then there's a psychological issue that I want to delve into momentarily to see if we

can sort these things out a little bit. It's still a mystery to me in some regard because it appears to me, and this is maybe just my Western liberal bias, that the optimal relationship between a man and a woman is one of, well, first of all, it's voluntary. And second of all, there's an element of playfulness about it, if it's running optimally, right? So there's love and playfulness and care and all that associated with it. But the most radical, the most relevant part of all of that is the fact that it's a voluntary association. And that's part of what makes it

what both tolerable for both parties and maybe enjoyable for both parties. But it's also something that speaks to the heart of the proper social contract in relationship to long-term, well, to any long-term arrangement between men and women. So then I'm trying to think about what it has to be like to be a man who believes that women have to be controlled in this manner. And it has to be, and this is psychologically speaking, it has to be something like the

belief that unless you police women entirely, in all of their behaviors, especially anything that might be attractive on the sexual front, that they'll want nothing to do with you, and they're completely untrustworthy. It has to be something like that, because if you leave women to their own devices, well, then they're not going to have anything to do with you and they're going to flaunt their wares, so to speak to other men and everything will fall apart. And I can't really imagine a more cowardly attitude towards women than that. The attitude is unless you tell them what to do all the time, they're going to have nothing to do with you and run off. Yeah, it's utterly pathetic.

And I don't think that's exactly religious. It seems to me to be in some real sense, it's even deeper than religious. It's this appallingly second rate psychology of some notion of the relationship between men and women, unless it's based on strict control and power, there's no possibility of an optimal relationship. Because women are untrustworthy and they're sexually provocative and they'll just run less it's based on strict control and power, there's no possibility of an optimal relationship. Because women are untrustworthy, and they're sexually provocative,

and they'll just run off on you if you don't police every bloody thing they do. And that's so pathetic, and if that's the basis of your entire polity, which is the point you're making with regards to the hijab, you can't see that a political society like that could be anything but ultimately repressive.

Of course, look, but at the end of the day, in my country, Iran, in Afghanistan, in the Middle East, we see that if the religion leave men alone, leave women alone, we know how to handle our life, we know how to deal with any kind of discrimination if we see through culture or to men among our family controlling us. But when the law is actually promoting violence and calling men to be the owner of women, then it's getting worse and difficult. You know, I remember that for years and years, Iranian regime actually were like brainwashing

the whole society, especially through educational system, educating young boys that you are the owner of your sister. So when we grew up in such society, for instance, we've been told that men, according to Sharia law, can marry four wives. They can have as much as women that they want. And oh my God, women cannot, I mean, as a woman, if you show your hair, it's a crime, but men are allowed

to actually do whatever they want to do. And in the name of honor, men, father, can kill his daughter. I mean, these are facts that I'm telling you. Like a girl in Iran who removed her job, Sabok or Daphshari, received 24 years prison sentence, just because of removing her her job in Iran. But a father who actually beheaded his daughter

received only eight years prison sentence. So here, clearly we're talking about Sharia laws actually allowing men to control women, to own women. So as a feminist, I believe that in my country, men are very progressive. I see that how men now are walking in the street toward morality police, toward security forces, with open arms, and saying that we are ready to die, but we are not going to live our sisters

who are fighting for their dignity. So the society, a men are more progressive, than the law, the establishment. And that's very, very frustrating that you see that through educational system we're being told that, hey, you can kill your sister. But now the same men are shouting in the street like Mi Miram, Mi Jangan, Zellat Nehmi Paziram,

saying that we rather die, but not live with emulation, because men think that this is an insult to them when the whole world actually is saying us, like, this is your culture, Iranian men cannot control themselves, they can get excited if they see men's women's unveiled, women's hair, women's body, this is an insult to men. And to be honest, I'm very proud of like Iranian men and women now shoulder to shoulder, saying that we want to get rid of this religious dictatorship because it's not just an insult to women, this is an insult to men as well. And that scares the Iranian regime.

So you started to really work as a political activist when you weren't a very old teenager, right? You started writing pamphlets and meeting politically. How old were you when you started doing that? Like, you left your village, if I remember the story correctly, you left your small village and went off to school. How old were you when you started doing that? Like, you left your village, if I remember the story correctly, you left your small village and went off to school. How old were you when you started to become politically active?

I mean, when you say that you left your village, it just breaks my heart because I got kicked out from everywhere. I never had a choice. I got kicked out from everywhere, just because of wanting to have dignity and freedom. First I got kicked out from high school, just because of spreading pamphlets. Then I got kicked out from my village because it was a scandal as a woman. I was the first one who got divorced. I was the first one who got divorced. I was the first one who got kicked out

from Iranian parliament. I was the first one who got pregnant before officially being married. And that was huge scandal. And in my village, I don't have any space to stay because it was not easy for my parents. I was really a scandal for all my family. And then I became a columnist.

Oh my God, no, I became a parliamentary journalist. I got kicked out from Iranian parliament just because of exposing the corruption. You receive a word if you do that in America, if you publish their pay slips, the salary that the member of the parliament received, you will be, you know, appreciated, you receive a word, I got kicked out from Iranian parliament. At the end, I got kicked out from from my homeland Iran because, you know, I had two options to stay in my country and impose self-sensorship on myself and just stay quiet or leave Iran and be loud.

You know, Jordan, I remember that I was a naughty girl and troublemaker in my village. My mom used to say that when your uncle aunties, everyone were around, you were making noise, your father was just kicking out from the room, but you were able to find a window and sneak into the same room. So my government kicked me out from everywhere, but I was able to find my window to sneak to my homeland. And now my window is my social media, you know? They kicked me out from Iran, but they couldn't take Iran away from me. Through my social media, I'm there.

I have like more than 10 million followers, more than the Ayatollahs all together. And I'm not an actress. I'm not a model. I'm just giving voice to voiceless people. And I'm being in touch with them every day. So clearly, yes, I didn't leave it on. They kicked me out, but I am there every day. As a teenager, in a very small village, poor family,

I had black and white TV. I was the one watching Mollas, telling me what to do, how to think, what kind of lifestyle to follow. But now all those Mollas, through their own TV, they're watching me. And they know me by my name. Now you were also, you were also the target of a kidnap plot, I understand, that was orchestrated by the Iranian government, or at least that's the theory. So do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yes, because that actually shows you that when we, the people of Iran, are fighting against

Mollas, we are not just fighting for ourselves here in America. Miles away from Iran, I was not safe. I was the target of the Islamic Republic. Yes, if it was not the FBI stopping the kidnapping plot, I would have been in Iran and executed. Like many other activists, just maybe Americans, maybe your audiences, maybe people here one day, listen to this story, they think it's like part of fiction.

I mean, kidnapping, American citizen, or trying to assassinate American citizen on US soil. For you, maybe it's like Hollywood movie or fiction book, but for us, it's the reality. Disassionating, kidnapping, executing is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic and millions of Iranian Family, they experienced this just two years ago, Iranian regime did the same they actually Trick one of the journalists from France to Iraq they kidnapped him from Iraq to Iran and they executed him Ruhu Lazaam father of two children, so that could have happened to me and they executed him. Rahul Lozam, father of two children. So that could have happened to me.

And actually, I remember when the FBI came to my house and they said that this time was not about kidnapping. This time, the guy with loaded gun was arrested in front of your house. I was shocked. I was like, wow, I was shocked. I was like, wow, here in America. I'm not, don't get me wrong,

I'm not a scared of my life at all. But it is a scary that you see that the Iranian regime dare to challenge the U.S. authorities on their soil. That's a scary happening in front of the eyes of free world, that the Iranian regime tried to kill people, abroad. So why aren't you afraid? To be honest, I don't want to say that I'm not

afraid at all because, look, it's not just about me. It's about my stepchildren. It's about my husband. It's about my neighbors, my beautiful neighbors in Brooklyn. Of course, I'm scared of their lives as well. Imagine if the guy had opened fire in Brooklyn. How many of my neighbors would have been killed? It is a scary, but I'm not scared of my life because to be honest,

I have only one life. I love the way that I scared that regime. I don't have guns and bullets. You see that I'm a very tiny woman. I'm even called here. I couldn't like protect myself from a cold here. But look, they're scared of me. They're scared of me and that's why they sent people here to kill me.

So that gives me power, you know? And there is no difference between my life and the life of teenagers in Iran. I see that teenagers posting on their social media and saying that I'm not sure whether I'm going to come back home or not. Oh my God. When teenagers are getting killed, I go to their social media and I read their posts. Some of them post on their story. Unbelievably brave saying that this might be the last day of my life.

But the good day will come. Maybe I'm not alive. You laugh on behalf of me. I see that teenagers riding on their social media that this land Iran didn't give me anything but I give my life my head to free this land from all of us. These are not me saying that, teenagers, writing these words and going to the streets

and facing guns and bullets, then you tell me, what is different between me and them? I see them and I tell myself, I have only one life. I don't wanna to live like like miserable and being scared and living paranoia. Oh, my heroes are women of Iran, men in Iran, facing guns and bulletin, saying that we're not going to live under humiliation. So that's why I'm not a scared of my life. and their humiliation. So that's why I'm not a scared of my life. So when you talk about the Iranian political state,

post-revolution, post-1979, you describe a society that sounds like the radical leftist caricature of Western society, right? It's intensely patriarchal. It's extremely misogynistic. It's anti-woman. It's repressive. It's intensely patriarchal. It's extremely misogynistic. It's anti-woman. It's repressive. It's hierarchical.

All the power is aggregated into the hands of a very small minority of people. And that's the reality on the ground in Iran. And that's not the reality in the US and in the Western world. But the West is often accused of that. What sort of response have you got from the progressive side of the political spectrum in the US in relationship to the sorts of claims that you're making about the Iranian state? To be honest, it was a long road. We passed the time that we've been ignored We path the time that we've been ignored for years and years. For years and years, the progress even left were quite lost.

When I was saying that compulsory hijab is not part of our culture. When I was saying that as a woman who grew up under Sharia laws, I have the right to be scared of Islamic ideology. For years and years I have been ignored by many people in the West saying that you're causing Islamophobia when you talk about compulsory hijab. But to be honest, now because of the bravery of Iranian people within the society, making awareness, finally, I see that the media left liberal progressive celebrities. Feminists, finally, are hearing us.

Finally, we are being heard. I mean, recently when I saw that CNN covered the story of Iran's new revolution exposing that how women are getting raped in prison, I was sitting in my house watching the news. I was crying, but at the same time, I was really proud that finally, my people in Iran made the whole world to hear them, to understand that this is a feminist revolution being supported by many in Iran and the Western liberal, the Western feminists

are paying attention to this, finally. So I really appreciate that now, especially when I see that because of the pressure from celebrities, from media, from activists, from feminists, finally, the leaders of democratic countries are changing their tone as well. But of course, we need more. But of course we need more. Of course we need actions. Now all we see that by the administration are changing their tone,

they actually took the leadership to kick out the Islamic Republic from United Nations top women body. And I was like sitting in my house and I was like, wow, this is happening. This is happening because just two years ago, when four democratic countries voted for the Islamic Republic to have a sit on women's top body at the United Nations, we, the women of Iran, were alone.

We were shocked. We were like, how come you're voting for a country that do not even allow women to be their true self? Just being our true self is a crime. And you're voting for our oppressors to monitor women's rights globally. It's like voting for Taliban to monitor human rights globally. But now it's just unbelievable that the U.S. government took leadership to kick out the Islamic Republic

from United Nations, top what. But this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning. So we need more. Well, so there's a couple of mysteries there. I mean, one, you just pointed to, we can expand on that a little bit. I mean, I don't know if there's anything more preposterous that's happened internationally, although that's a hard contest, than the UN's decision to appoint Iran or to allow Iran

to have a permanent seat, hypothetically permanent seat, on the international body that was fundamentally responsible for the monitoring and regulation, let's say, of women's rights. So we have a mystery there. It's like that's so utterly preposterous that it's almost impossible to believe that the West ever agreed to it to begin with. And then we have another mystery underneath that,

which is that it's been an uphill battle for you and for the people who are fighting for freedom in Iran to convince the more progressive end of the spectrum, including Western feminists, that the regime that you're fighting against has all the hallmarks of the terrible patriarchy that hypothetically they oppose. And so what in the world is the reason that, well, first of all, that there's been this pro-Iranian mula sentiment in the West, which is almost completely incomprehensible, and then allied without this incompletely, what would you call it, willful blindness on

the part of Western feminists for like 30 years with regards to the crimes against women that had been occurring in Iran. Like, how do you account for that? I mean, it was heartbreaking for me, not for me, for women in Afghanistan right now. Right now, girls are being kicked out from school just because of being girls. Women are being kicked out from university, but still we don't see in the West like women take to the streets. Like, you know, there was a campaign called Bring Our Girls Back when I remember when Michelle Obama actually launched that campaign.

I was like, this is the US that I have been dreaming to live. When women's march happened here in America, I was like, yes, I was part of the women's march. I took to the streets and I was like, yes, I was part of the women's march. I took to the streets and I was calling my fellow activists in Iran with joy saying that I cannot believe. I'm shouting my body, my choice without getting arrested, without getting harassed, without being bullied in the street, without being killed, without being killed. That was like, oh my God, this is the America

that I had dream to live. But suddenly I was shocked that when I, I'm saying my body, my choice, the same feminists, go to my country and they wear a hijab in front of the Islamic Republic, not even going to my country and they wear hijab in front of the Islamic Republic, not even going to my country. Here in the West, here in the West, some of the female politicians, the US envoy for Afghanistan wore hijab in front of Taliban in the West. Why? I don't get that. I don't get that. So that's why maybe I'm really appreciative now when I see finally the young girls and teenagers

risk their lives. They paid a huge price to make the whole world especially the global feminist movement to understand that this is the time, that you have to recognize this revolution, which is taking place in Iran. And now they are paying attention. Finally, I heard that President Obama actually said that he regrets. Hillary Clinton said that she regrets by not supporting the green movement in 2009. So we, the people of Iran, actually now calling on the free world, that this is the time we have to see international women's march for women of Iran and women of Afghanistan. because otherwise the history will judge every single

democratic country who could actually support girls and women in Iran and Afghanistan, but they kept silent. So I see the progress, I see that we are being heard, but we need more actions. First, the democratic countries must actually recognize this revolution and recall their ambassadors. This is not me saying that. One million Iranians signed a petition and asking the leaders of G7 democratic countries to kick out Iranian diplomats. to kick out Iranian diplomats. You know, there is Iran's intersection in Washington, D.C.

Jordan, I challenge every feminist to come with me, to go to Iran's intersection, to see that how here in the U.S. we get kicked out if we don't cover our hair. In 21st century, they don't even allow us to go to Iran's intersection. Why? Because we have to cover ourself according to Sharia laws.

Why? My people, my woman in Iran, they risking their lives, they practicing their civil disobedience, they removed their job. Why should we keep silent? We can do that here. We can practice our civil disobedience in Iran's intersection to show the rest of the world that how barbaric this regime is.

So let me argue this a bit from the side, the hypothetically more progressive side, because there's some thorny issues here. I mean, one of the things that people who tilt towards the left in the West are concerned with is that any negative press, let's say, in relationship to the more tyrannical elements of Islamic fundamentalism, has the negative consequence of shedding a dim light on the religious practices as a whole. And so people are rightly concerned, I suppose, that about distinguishing between valid criticisms

of the excesses of the fundamentalists and generating a kind of more global, let's call it Islamophobia that would inflame religious tensions between the Christian world and the Jewish world and the Islamic world. And so there's this very thin line in some sense that has to be walked such that we can distinguish between the fundamentalist totalitarianists, totalitarians, and leave some respect for the alternative, from the Western perspective,

for the alternative Islamic culture in place. And I've talked to a lot of Islamic moderates, people who are working to put forward a vision of Islam that's more commensurate, say, with a liberal democracy, and they're also concerned about a kind of Islam that's more commensurate, say, with a liberal democracy. And they're also concerned about a kind of blanket Islamophobia. And I think some of the resistance on the part of the left to criticizing regimes like Iran is this fear that a more generalized, quote, Islamophobia might develop. And so to what degree, and there's an open question

in relationship to Iran too, like you associate the totalitarian prescriptions with Sharia law, and there's a religious element to that. I mean, and people like, she wrote in Fidel, Ian Hershey Ali, I mean, she's come out very strongly as an anti-Islamic crusader in some real sense and also a great promoter of women's freedom, someone I admire remarkably. But it does leave us with this thorny question, right, is that on the one hand, we have these

fundamentalist proclivities that seem to manifest themselves in Islam and also in other religions. And then we have the problem of having to maintain peaceful relationships with the Islamic culture as a whole. And it's not easy in the West to figure out how to do both of those at the same time. Why, so I mean, I don't, I don't get, I don't get it. I don't get it. Why? Okay.

Why? Look, I'm coming for a Muslim family. I'm not against my mother. I'm not against my mother. I'm not against my father. I want separation between religion and politics is that difficult to understand that I get attacked by some people in the West saying that when I criticize Shariah Lord,

when I criticize Islamic ideology, they're saying that, oh, you're anti-Muslim. You're, I mean, actually, I wrote an article to criticize Ilhan Omar's legislation. Her legislation is to gather information of those who are causing Islamophobia. I wrote an article for Washington Post. I challenged her that if we criticize Islamic Republic, we criticize Shariah Laos, we criticize Taliban. Does it, in your point of view, does it, I mean,

is it going to cause Islamophobia? I wanted her to clarify what she means by causing Islamophobia in the West. Because in my country, if we criticize Islam, we get hanged as more tact, moharab, means you're waging war against God. Right now that I'm talking to you, more than 50 people are in prison waiting to be hanged

More than 50 people are in prison waiting to be hanged because of waging war against God or, oh my God, spreading corruption on the earth. So these are all according to Sharia laws, legal. So it's legal. People get killed, hanged, executed in the name of Sharia laws in Iran. So if I criticize that in the West, then I'm causing Islamophobia, or I'm anti-Muslim. So for me, look, I'm not scared of being labeled of Islamophobic at all. The revolution is taking place in Iran. It's against Islamic Republic

and gender apartheid regime, which actually, the Islamic Republic is against minority. It's against LGBT community. It's against environment. It's against Bahá'í, Jewish, all minority. It's against Bahá'í, Jewish, all minority, it's against Kurds, Turk, Baloch, it's against women, it's against our dignity. So these are the values that we share with the Western left and liberals. These are the values that all these values are universal. So what is wrong here in the West, in my opinion, it's like Democrats and Republicans cannot see human rights abusing Iran, like bipartisan issue. For me, I get attacked if I come to your show by left and liberal. If I go and ask the left and liberal to support our cause, I get attacked by right wings.

So this is wrong. To be honest, when it comes to Iran and Afghanistan, we should only care about universal values. I'm gonna be very honest with you. I really don't care whether Trump is in power, Biden is in power, or Obama is in power. What I care that these Islamic states should not be in power in Iran and Afghanistan, because at the end of the day, here in America, we have First Amendment, we have freedom of expression,

we have free media, we can criticize whoever we want. But in my country, when you criticize harmony, you pay huge price, which is your life. So that's why it's that too much to ask, I mean, for media, for policymakers here, politicians, that when it comes to Iran, when it comes to Islamic Republic, we have to get united, we have to get all together and give voice to Iranian people who want to get rid of this Islamic Republic. Because this Islamic Republic is not only a threat for Iranians.

Believe me, the Islamic Republic, if they want to kill Americans, they never ask you whether you are Republican or you are Democrat. Whether you support LGBT community or you don't support gay people. They kill you anyway because you are American. So that is why I call on Americans every day, every single corner that I go, that when it comes to Iranian fight against Islamic Republic, you have to see this as bipartisan issue. Otherwise, believe me, this Islamic Republic will get united by Putin, with Putin, Madhura, China, all the dictators, and they will end democracy.

How good are your connections in Iran right now? How much of a sense do you have of what's happening on the ground? What is the situation in Iran right now? How widespread are the protests? Who's participating? What do you see as the most likely outcome? Right now, the revolution in Iran, which is taking place, is it's like a marathon. You know, I'm not saying that we're going over through the regime overnight. We have really tough road ahead.

As you see, that 18,000 people are in prison and more than 50 of them are in death row. They are like two of them got executed recently. And the family members of the political prisoners that I'm being in touch with them, they really worry about their beloved one. I mean, Jordan, really worried about their beloved one. I mean, Jordan, just think about it. You go to prison just because of chanting for freedom, and then every morning, you have to be concerned

that you're the next one that you're going to be hanged for wanting freedom, democracy, and dignity. That's very scary. And when I talk to the members of those political prisoners, they really frustrated, but what amazed me, immediately when people get executed or get killed in Iran, oh my God, they're family members, turning the funeral like massive protests against the

whole regime. That's very unique. And it's very shocking that the more that Iranian regime kill people, the more people get determined to take back to the streets. So that is actually a significant sign that the Iranian people are fed up with this Islamic Republic and they have a clear message that we are going to end this regime. I mean, it's not easy actually to say that when teenagers, when children are getting killed, their family members are being forced to go on TV and do false confessions.

Like, the family members sitting in front of camera and denouncing their beloved one. So this is what's going on right now in Iran. But a lot of people are hopeful. They're very hopeful. I mean, the Iranian regime took everything away from people, not hope. They believed that with the help of the Western countries, less people will get killed and we will win this battle. We will end this barbaric regime. Let's talk a little bit about what might constitute a path forward because you could imagine that the regime is overthrown, that it falls apart in tatters, let's say. But, well, one of the themes that's developed in the biblical story of Exodus is the notion, the narrative notion that when you escape from a tyranny and you've been slaves, you

don't go to the promised land, you go to the desert, right? And that's a period of interminable wandering and confusion. And we've seen this time and time again where an oppressive centralized regime will collapse. And the consequence of that isn't the recreation of a functional polity, but the descent into something like unbridled chaos. And I mean Iran could fragment. There's all sorts of tensions that are pulling it apart. And one of the things that I'm curious about are your views about what might happen that would actually be productive in the Iranian context.

If the centralized oppressive regime collapsed, like why wouldn't Iran just become a failed state then? What do you, why are you optimistic about the fact that a new form of governance might emerge? That's actually very good questions because I often get this questions from journalists, even ordinary people in the West saying that how you're that sure that Iran is not going to be Libya. Iran is not going to be Syria, you know what?

But let's just compare Iran with our own history. Like back to 40 years ago, why shouldn't we compare Iran to our own history, that women and men were together, they had social freedom, and it's so sad that the Iranian regime is trying to sell this narrative to the Western media and saying that if you support this revolution chaos can happen. This situation is chaos. Where women are getting raped, where minority getting killed, where the family members are going to prison just because of asking, why did you kill my son? Why did you kill my daughter? This is Syria. So the only reason that Iran can be like Syria is the Islamic Republic is this barbaric monolous. So for me and millions of Iranians, it's clear that we know what we want.

If we get rid of the Islamic Republic, we want to have fair and free election. Then we can choose the kind of government that we want them to run the country and believe me when you open the doors of prison, all those political prisoners right now are being suffering under the Islamic Republic, they can run the country better than these backward mollas. Many educated people outside Iran, many intellectual elites who were forced to leave Iran. Now they are ready to run the country

and believe me they can run the country better than clerics, better than more loss. So this is to me clear that the Iranian regime trying to sell this narrative, but believe me, as far as the Islamic Republic is in power, the whole world cannot be safe place. Right now that I'm talking to you, these Islamic Republic sending drones to Putin to kill innocent Ukrainians. Right now that I'm talking to you, U.S. citizen, British citizen, U.K. citizen, German citizen, Swedish citizens, they are all, they are in Iranian prison, being used like bargaining chip to get nuclear deal. And then here, I keep, I keep here from some of the analysts, some of the apologists, some of the media and policy makers

saying that we have to stick with our policy to negotiate with the same regime because Iran with bomb is a very dangerous regime for everyone. But believe me, Iran without Islamic Republic can make the whole world much safer place. And you can actually, we can, we, Iranians and Western countries, we can achieve our goal when the Islamic Republic is gone. Because Iranian regime is a, it's a, it's a, it's a cheater broker. They are cheating. You can not trust them. You cannot negotiate with them when they lie.

But they keep lying about their nuclear activities, everything. So, for millions of Iranians, it's clear that if the Western countries understand that, they can achieve their goal. If the Islamic Republic is gone, then Iran is going to be a secular democratic country. The young generation smart and intellectual leaders inside and outside Iran, they can run this country better than Khatami, Khamin A. You have enough faith in the educated and competent section of the Iranian population, dispersed though it may be, to put forward a form of governance that's going to be far superior to what's happening now. And you think that's a realistic possibility?

It is, it is, it is a good luck. Let me tell you something. For years and years, Iranian regime were trying to say that if you don't cover yourself, you want to be safe in public, you will get raped by men. Oh my God, this is their mindset. They even actually made a fake news about myself,

as well, saying that on Iranian national television, that Masih Alina Jot got raped by three men in London. Guess why? Because she undressed herself. So this is the mentality of this regime. It believes that even about the me-to-movement in the West, I remember that the Supreme Leader Ali Hamid, he said that on the Western feminist,

the Western women who are now complaining about getting raped and sexually harassed, it's because they don't know Islam. It's their fault because they don't wear a job. They don't cover themselves so they deserve to get raped. This is the mindset of this regime. So of course, the young generation are more progressive than this backward mode lost, and they can run this country better than those who believe

that if you get raped, it's your fault. So let's go to the particulars of your individual experience and the individual experience of Iranian women. You talked a bit in this broadcast so far about the morality police. And so what did that mean in your day-to-day life? Who are the morality police? How widespread and prevalent are they?

What sort of people are they? And what do they do? I cannot believe it again. In 21st centuries, we talk about morality police. What kind of moral that you walk in the streets and you look around and you see like a teenager's, oh, cover yourself, cover yourself. If you don't cover yourself, then I'm going to punch you on your face.

Yes, morality police are a bunch of officers, men and women. They're receiving money from the regime, walking in public, and monitoring that whether people behave properly, whether people follow Sharia laws appropriately. I mean, I mean, Mahsa Amini, who got killed the 22-year-old woman, she was not even unveiled. A little bit of her hair was visible, and that's why she got arrested.

You know, I really want you to go and check the hashtag called My Camera is My Weapon. For years and years, I have been receiving videos from women inside Iran, filming morality police. If you really want to know what morality police mean in 21st century, go and watch their videos that bravely filming the officers and a bunch of back-work agents of the Islamic Republic harassing women for the way that they've been dressing in public. And it's beyond sad. It's beyond sad that for years and years women are being harassed, getting bitten up,

getting arrested, or receiving lashes for not wearing appropriate hijab for years and years. And now the whole world, now finally they're paying attention to us, but believe me it didn't need for teenagers to get killed for the whole world to understand that When we fight against compulsory hijab we fight against one of the most dangerous regime who dare to kill innocent people for just you know being their true self and what sort of people do you think are attracted to the job of morality police? Like, how would you characterize them?

To be honest, sometimes it's all about money, but sometimes they're being brainwashed. They're being brainwashed that you're doing for good of the people. I mean, my own father. I mean, I love my father. I love him. It's not even easy to talk about it.

But my own father was trying to take me to heaven by force. All my life. All my life. I can... he was kind of morality police. And millions of Iranian women had this experience having morality police inside their own house. Like, father, brother, telling us that cover yourself. It's for your good.

I'm protecting you. So you see, my father didn't have any chance to be educated properly. So he was the one being brainwashed by all the Moldas, clerics through educational system, through TV, all the propaganda tools, media that you know, you are the owner of your daughter. If you don't force her to cover herself, then you will be responsible as well. I mean, my father and I was told through all the clerics, through TV, that women will get hanged by their hair if they don't cover

it. So my father was like, okay, so I'm gonna protect my daughter. That's kind of brainwash can make people to please their own daughters, to please women in public. So what, what's your, if you don't mind me asking and feel free to reject the question, what are your parents

attitudes towards what you're doing now and the profile that you've established? I mean, you're not only experiencing the division in Iranian society at the political and sociological level, it's being acted out in your own household, which is typically the case for deep political issues. So, how do your parents and your family respond to what you're doing at the present time? To be honest, not only my family, millions of other Muslim people, millions of other, you know, older generations who have been supporting this regime, they have changed, but just watching that how brutal this supporting this regime, they have changed, but just watching that how brutal is this regime. I mean, I can talk about myself again

that the Iranian regime intrigated my 70-year-old mother for what I have been doing to stop her from sharing her love with me. It was really sad watching my own sister on Iranian national television, disowning me publicly. And it's beyond sad that the Iranian regime actually asked my own family to take me to Turkey.

They were trying to kidnap me from Turkey. So for me, it's heartwarming that my mom didn't go to TV to denounce me publicly. It's heartwarming that my mom didn't want me to be kidnapped. So that's why she didn't actually cooperate with the regime. My brother, my brother, Ali, oh my god, they put him in prison for two years, just because he didn't want to actually, he didn't want to see his sister being trick from America to Turkey and being kidnapped from Turkey. So that was the plan of the Islamic Republic. So you see, I have been working really hard. Now I have my family on my side, which maybe they're not saying that in public,

but by not taking me to Turkey, by not going on TV and denouncing me publicly, I love them, you know, I love them. Many other people in the street that I see that they wear a job, but they're supporting their daughters. Many other fathers that I see that they believe in Islam, but they don't believe in political Islam and they don't want to support the Syrian regime. So that is scarce, the Iranian government. That finally, finally, people like my mother, people who actually

were part of the revolution to overthrow the Shah's regime, taking to the streets and saying that we made a mistake. We overthrew the Shah's regime. We made a mistake, you know. Many people chanting in the streets saying that it's a big lie that this Democratic Republic say that our enemy is America. Our enemy is right here. It is the Islamic Republic. So this is the victory. So that's why I'm very, very optimistic because I believe that even those who supported the Islamic Republic, now they know now they know it very well. That the Islamic Republic is against the dignity of everyone.

Everyone. And this is the same regime that actually asking people to say death to America. I mean, they brainwashed me, my family, to say death to America, but they send their own relatives to America. Jordan, right now that I'm talking to America, but they send their own relatives to America. Jordan, right now that I'm talking to you, the children of the hostage takers,

those who talk American diplomats hostage, they send their children here. They live in America, they live in New York, in LA, having their luxury lives. So my parents and the older generation, they're watching this hypocrisy. And finally, they're supporting the older generation, they're watching this hypocrisy. And finally, they're supporting the young generation. And they're saying that, yeah, they like to us.

They like to us. Their children, their relatives are enjoying freedom. They go to parties, they dance, they sing. They're happy in the West, but here the voice of Iranian people crying for the same freedom, crying to have the same dignity. It's just unbelievable. You talked as well about the corruption of the Mullahs,

and so there's a biblical injunction, it's one of the ten commandments to not take God's name in vain. And people think that means don't swear. And that isn't what it means. What it means is don't use the name of God to justify your own instrumental agenda. Don't claim to be doing holy work and good work when actually what you're doing is promoting your own narrow self interest? And so we have a regime in Iran that's unbelievably corrupt, the Mullah regime, on the financial level, and they're justifying their machinations with reference to a transcendent authority.

But can you talk a little bit about corruption in the Mola establishment and how that plays itself out in Iranian society? How do you see that on the ground? This regime is corrupted and for years and years they were saying that we overthrew the Shah's regime because we want to help the poor people. But believe me, now the relative of the Mollas, their own older, you know, big companies in Iran, they actually the one receiving all the monies that the American government actually won the lift up sanctions, they sent billions of dollars to Iranian government. The money goes directly to the revolutionary guards, to the relative of the Ayatollahs.

And for many years, the Iranian regime put the blame on the U.S. sanction. But can you believe that while we, the people of Iran, were suffering from sanction, the Islamic Republic actually increased the budget of two well-known institutions which belongs to the son of the Ayatollah Khomeini and the son of Ayatollah Khomeini. So the money directly goes to 51 religious institutions including morality police while they put the blame on your sanction.

Right, so they're running a shell game to enrich themselves financially, enrich themselves and their relatives in a dynastic and autocratic manner, while simultaneously claiming to be acting in the name of God and persecuting people who object as if they're satanic objectors. That's basically the game. And so that's using the Lord's name in vain, let's say. But not only in Iran, not only inside Iran. Look, just a few months ago, Salman Rojdhi was the target of assassination plot. Right, right. Why? Why? Because of the fatfall from the Ayatollas,

from my own country, I was shocked. I was shocked when I heard some of the media in the West were saying that the motive behind this assassination plot of Salman Rojtih is not clear. Why? It is clear. Yeah, right, right. It is clear.

Because when you go to the page of this person who was trying to kill Salman Rushdie, it's full of the pictures of Ayatollahs. And the front page of the newspaper in Iran right after the assassination plot was the picture of Salman Rushdie. And they were celebrating. They were celebrating the assassination plot

and they were actually saying that the next should be Massie Alinejad. So you see, yeah. Assassinating is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic, the Supreme Leader of Islamic Republic Ali Hamid, he actually promoted the fatwa against Salman Rochty, just three years ago on Twitter, on his Twitter account.

And then you still saying that the motive behind this assassination plot is not clear? It is clear. That's why I'm angry. It's very clear. With the tech companies, I'm very angry with the tech companies still allowing Khamenei and his gang of killers

to enjoy freedom of expression through social media. While 18 million people are banned from using the same social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, they're all filtered in Iran. But those who order filtering, they are enjoying freedom on social media. Iranian people are calling every day the tech companies, the Twitter,

kick out the Ayatollahs. Until the day we have the same freedom to use Twitter. Is that too much to ask? Yeah. Well, it appears to be, I mean, when I saw what happened with Salman Rushdie, it must have been 25 years ago, and the fat one was laid on him.

I thought the Western response was unbelievably weak need and cowardly. I thought, we have a real test case here. The idea of freedom of expression is being directly challenged by this terrible regime in Iran with a price being laid on the head of an outstanding writer who's made his reputation in the West. And all the West did was cow-tow and become extremely apologetic.

And I thought, oh, oh, we're in real trouble because we're too stupid to notice that an attack on Salman Rushdie is a direct attack by the Iranian fundamentalists on the fundamental notion of freedom in the West. And that's been unfolding over 25 years. And as you said, it culminated in this most recent nearly fatal attack on Rushdie. And not only that, and the West has not only that the professor at Obernin College, Mahal Loti, right. He is the one actually promoted the fatwa against Salmandroshti. And I don't get that how he is welcomed by the US government to be a professor and teach peace and democracy

at Oberlin College. Another professor, Mohad Jirani, who was the minister of a culture in Iran, who left Iran and now he lives in England. He actually wrote a book and promoted the fat boy against Al-Mandrojdi. So you see, I don't get this contradiction that at the same time you are saying that you care about democracy and safety of Americans and Western people, but at the same time you allow those who promote the fat boy against Al-Mal-Rashri to enjoy their freedom and educate the young generation at universities in the Western countries.

They are going to ruin the mindset of the young generation in America. That's why there is a huge campaign against Mahal Lothi and asking the Overling College to kick him out, because he was actually the one hiding and covering up the mass executions, because he was actually the ambassador of United Nations during the time when Abraham Raiz see ordered the executions of more than 5,000 political prisoners. He was the one actually here in America covering up the mass executions. And now it's still nobody here, the cry of Iranian people, saying that he was the one promoted the fat throw against Al-Mandrushdi as well.

You know, this is something that I strongly believe the American policy makers, Republican and Democrats should see this like bipartisan issue and help us to be happy. Right, right. Well, what would you like more in more detail? What would you like Western leaders to do in relationship to the ongoing events in Iran? What do you think would be most helpful as far as your concern? So if I could sit down and talk to my Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball lasting on the Sun, by the way, what do you think it

is that he should be doing that would actually be helpful to the women and men in Iran who are trying to fight against this fundamentalist tyranny. Simple demand. I call on Justin Trudeau to put the revolutionary guards on the terrorist list. Look, three years ago, I was in Canadian parliament. I was actually begging the policymakers

to put revolutionary guards in the terrorist list to sanction revolutionary guards and to sanction all the oppressors. Three years ago, what happened? I was ignored. I was actually under attack by some of the Islamic Republic apologists in Canada, and they're calling themselves activists, human rights activists, but they were echoing the voice of the Iranian regime and attacking me, bullying me, why because I asked Justin Trudeau

to actually sanction revolution regards. What happened? By ignoring our demand, the same revolution in a guard shot down the Ukrainian airplane and killed 176 innocent Iranian and Canadian people. So our Prime Minister is hypothetically a progressive sort of person and is hypothetically on the side of women. And so how do you account for the fact that, despite your attendance at the Canadian Parliament and your request for support that you never got it?

How do you explain that? It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart. But as you actually got to know me during this interview, I'm not that kind of person to give up my fight. I'm not that kind of person to give up having hope to convince the leaders of democratic countries that this is your turn now. You have to recognize Iran's revolution and call your allies, get United, kick out

these Islamic republic diplomats, recall your ambassadors from Iran and publicly announced that the nuclear deal is dead, is dead, because you cannot condemn the killers, the murderers, but at the same time, trying to negotiate with them, sending billions of dollars to the same murderers. Can we talk a little bit about the nuclear deal? Is that a reasonable place to go? I think there's nothing else to add.

The nuclear deal is already dead, but what we want, we want the US government and it's allies clearly and publicly announced that because this is the only thing can help the Islamic Republic to survive. Islamic Republic always put the blame on us saying that this revolution, the new revolution is being supported by Western government, but believe me, for its own survival, the Islamic Republic is begging for support

to get support from the Western countries. We don't actually ask for much help from the leaders of democratic countries. What we want is just to, we want them to stick with their own values. That's all. And not save the Islamic Republic while the Iranian people manage to shake this regime, don't go and shake the hand of the same regime.

That's all we want. Because we believe that this Islamic Republic is a threat for the region and for the democratic countries as well. And if the Western countries looking for stability in the region, they cannot go and negotiate with one of the most unstable regime. They have to recognize the civil society. They have to recognize this modern progressive revolution, and they have to stick with the people of Iran.

We are better allies than the Islamic Republic for the Western countries. Right, right, right. So do you believe that the revolutionary spirit that's now manifesting itself in Iran is that growing or are the mullahs successfully repressing it?

Because it looks like a pretty... It doesn't look to me like it's spreading exponentially. You know, I can't tell, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you today. I mean, the mullahs have a lot of control, and they have a lot of power and authority on their side.

And so, what's the situation on the ground in Iran? How widespread are the protests? What percentage of the population is taking part? I mean, the Chinese successfully have clamped down on their people time and time again, and maintain their terrible totalitarian regime. And so, I don't understand the balance of power in Iran at the moment. Do you think that the protesters have any chance here, or are they just going to get shut down? I strongly believe that this time the protesters are going to win the battle.

Because, look, first of all, the level of the brutality is very high. I mean, people are facing executions, but it's still, every single person get killed, people get back to the street and turn his or her funeral, like a massive protest against the same regime. But don't forget that, they have money and they can actually buy some of the people to shut down the protest and to oppress the

protesters. But at the same time, the more that the Iranian regime killed, the more that the Iranian people get determined to overthrow this barbaric regime. For me and millions of other people, this time is different. This time is different because this time maybe it's like not 2009 demonstrations. In 2009, it was mostly about election. It's not like 2019 demonstrations because it was mostly about economic. This time is mixed. People who believe that this regime is against

every minority, it's against men, women, LGBT community, environment, it's against Bahá'í Jewish people, Kurds, Turk, Baluch, they're all got united. But for years and years, the Iranian regime was successfully could execute Kurds. People were like, okay, we are not Kurds, we are not going to get involved.

They were successfully executing Jewish people, execute curts, the people were like, okay, we are not curts, we are not gonna get involved. They were successfully executing Jewish people, Bahá'í minority, Arabs, Turks. But now, immediately when they killed Masa, I mean, people were like, we're all Masa, we're all united. People didn't say that we are not women, so we're not gonna get involved to that.

So this time is different because we see a sense of unity among Iranians inside and outside. This time is unique because we see a sense of unity among Iranians and non-Iranians outside Iran. You see that finally people are supposed celebrities are echoing the voice of Iranian people. And this is the first time in our history that we see Iranian well-known athletes quitting their jobs and supporting Iranian uprising. This is the first time that we see Iranian well-known actress saying that we don't want to be part of the propaganda tool.

They're removing their hijab and they're saying we want to be part of this uprising. So that makes it different. Right, so you're making the case that this series of protests, this revolutionary movement, in some sense is more fundamental and also more united. It's not about economics only, it's not about the political situation and corruption. It's about the fundamentally totalitarian nature of the state and the fact that it's oppressing people so broadly that everyone can be united in their opposition to that oppression. Exactly. So you see it as striking at the heart of the totalitarian state.

Exactly, and as I told you, this is the first time in the history that people are united in a beautiful way. And it actually empowered many people in autocracy, like Chinese people, when they took to the streets, they were actually showing their support to Iranian people using the same slogan, woman, life, freedom. People in Afghanistan, they got empowered by the slogan of Iranian people. So clearly, this uprising is encouraging everyone to be part of it, It's beautiful. It's very progressive.

It's very beautiful that you see mothers and fathers immediately when they lose their beloved one. They take to the street and say that this revolution needs blood. And our beloved one, I know, I mean, I get goosebumps. It's not easy for parents to say that. It's not easy. I'm a mother. I cannot even imagine losing my son when I see that brave mothers for justice in Iran,

immediately when they lose their son, they get the picture of their beloved one, and they're like leading the revolution and saying that this revolution needs a blood and my beloved one sacrifice her life, his life, to free Iran. This is a revolution. The revolution happened inside the heart of Iranian people. It's very, very powerful that you see people know that this is not free, but they are ready to pay the price. These are like, to me, I'm walking in the history. In the history you see about, you read about heroes.

But now we actually see the real heroes in the streets of Iran saying that freedom is not free, but we are ready to pay the price to get rid of this Democratic Republic. place to end, I would say. We've talked for 90 minutes on YouTube. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. I hope you continue to be able to do what you're doing and I'd like to thank you for talking to me. I'd like to thank everybody who is watching and listening on YouTube and the associated platforms too. And if any of you have been particularly taken by this story today, you know, you could always put pen to paper and write your congressman or your senator and let them know that you're not all that happy about the situation in Iran and that if the politicians got their act together and were stalwart in their opposition to this fundamentalist totalitarian misogynistic brutal regime, that maybe it could be pushed over,

and that would be a nice object lesson to totalitarian tyrants everywhere in the world. And so you'd think the West could get their act together in relationship to that goal. And so I'm going to talk to Massey some more on the Daily Wire Plus platform, probably more biographically, which is what I tend to do on that,

in that 30-minute segment. I'd like to thank the Daily Wire Plus people for setting up the production for this today and facilitating the conversation. And once again, I'd like to thank you very much for talking to me today and wish you the best of luck in your, well, let's say first, your continued existence and your continued safe existence,

but then also in your attempts to well, allow your voice to ring out despite the, what would you say, the cost that you have and are likely to continue to bear? Thank you so much. I hope we're gonna win this battle on one day. I'm gonna invite you to my tiny village in Iran, and you will be able to see beautiful Iran and beautiful people of my country.

It's a date. Yeah, that would not be something. That would be something to look forward to. It's a dream coming true. Thank you so much for having me. That's for sure. You bet. You bet. Very good talking with you.

Hello, everyone. I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation That's for sure. You bet. You bet. Very good talking with you. Hello, everyone. I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com.