The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 356. Narcissists, Frauds, and Enablers: Trans Women and Women's Sports | Riley Gaines

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and twelve-time All-American female swimmer Riley Gaines discuss the insemination of men into women's spaces. Gaines breaks down the breach in security that women face when forced to share vulnerable spaces with biological men, the purpose of athletic achievement, why segregation of the sexes has genuine merit, and what exactly went down at San Francisco State University. Riley Gaines is an American athlete and female rights activist. Gaines is a graduate from the University of Kentucky, where she was a twelve-time All-American swimmer. She competed and tied with trans-identifying swimmer Lia Thomas at their NCAA championships and was unfairly sidelined from the awards ceremony. She has spoken to numerous teammates and administrators who do not think this attack on female sports is fair, and more importantly, do not feel this invasion by men into female spaces is remotely safe. Gaines has become an outspoken female rights activist, advocating for the protection of women's spaces, sports, and achievements, and has proven herself unshakable even when faced with a dangerous mob. - Links - For Riley Gaines: Website: https://rileygaines.com/ Twitter https://twitter.com/Riley_Gaines_?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor  Ep.356

One. Today I'm speaking with American athlete, top ranking swimmer, and now campaigner for genuine female rights, Riley Gaines, in our conversation, we're going to cover her career thus far, how she's navigated leadership positions and female sports, and otherwise, how those sports have been co-opted by men claiming to be women, the ideological capture they're in, and of course, her recent experiences

at San Francisco State University. I, Riley, I understand that it's about four in the morning there in Nashville. I'm in Portugal, so you know, time zone trouble. It's real good of you to stay up so damn late and agree to talk to me and to everybody else here. So let's start with this. Let's talk a little bit about your life over the last couple of years. Like what is your life consistent? I presume you're studying and you're aiming at

something. You're also an athlete. So tell me what how your life should be, let's say, and what you're aiming at and and how your life actually is. And then we'll start talking about what happened to you most recently at San Francisco State. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So what have you been up to the last few years while you were pursuing the pathway, let's say, of a normal person? I had every intention of finishing my collegiate career of swimming, graduating and going to

dental school. That's always been my passion, was dentistry. Specifically, I wanted to be an endodontist, which is someone who performs root canals, essentially. I graduated with a degree in human health sciences and health law from the University of Kentucky. I was set to be in dental school this year, but with everything that really happened,

and I know we'll dive into that, I decided I really realized that dental school That's something that will always be there But the relevance and the importance behind the issue we're gonna talk about It's not gonna always be there and I understood if if someone with the same powerful testimony that I have the same voice Someone who's unafraid to speak the truth I have the same voice, someone who's unafraid to speak the truth, doesn't stick up for this. I really just saw what's at stake. And so I put my life on hold for a year.

I've reapplied for dental school in the fall. I'm set to go to the University of Tennessee, but I'm still kind of wavering with the idea of if that's right for me at this time. Right, right. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, well, your performance as a student, but then also your athletic career. So what makes you, let's say,

what makes you a credible competitive swimmer? And then off of that, what makes you a credible voice for, let's say, athletes in general, but for female athletes in particular. So how good an athlete are you? What's your record? And you know, what are your credentials? So I've accomplished some really amazing things that I'm really proud of over my career. I qualified for Olympic trials in 2016. I was only 15 years old at the time. So I was one of the youngest ones there, again, in 2020, to which translated into 2021 because of COVID and such. I have one five SEC

championships. I'm a 12 time in St. Louis, all American. Let's see, I'm the SEC record holder in the 200 butterfly, which means. And what is that? That's SEC, did you say that? Yes, that's the Southeastern Conference, so which is the most powerful conference in my opinion, of course, on bias. But I am the SEC record holder in the 200 butterfly, which means under this shirt, I have really big shoulders that I've tried to cover with my hair,

making me one of the fastest Americans of all time in the event. So I've really done some incredible things that I will forever be proud of. These are memories I can always look back on. And I think that's what gives me the credibility in my sport. What gives me the credibility that allows me

to use my voice and be heard is the fact that I have firsthand experience competing against a male. I got to personally witness and experience the ingestus that we face. I felt the effect that this infringement had on myself and my teammates, and how this affected us,

how it affected our performance, how it affected our health, our mental health, and what that looked like from our perspective as female athletes who were directly impacted. The content I've created over the past year represents some of my best to date, as I've undertaken additional extensive exploration in today's most challenging topics, and experience the nice increment in production quality courtesy of DailyWire Plus. We all want you to benefit from the knowledge gained throughout this adventurous journey. I'm pleased to let you know that for a limited time,

you're invited to access all my content with a seven-day free trial at DailyWire Plus. This will provide you with full access to my new in-depth series on marriage, as well as guidance for creating a life vision, and my series exploring the book of Exodus. You'll also find there the complete library of all my podcast lectures. I have a plethora of new content in development that will be coming soon, exclusively on Daily Wire Plus. Voices of Reason and Resistance are few and far between these strange days. Click on the link below if you want to learn more and thank you for watching and listening. Okay, so let's delve into, people aren't going to know this. So you are competing at extremely high level on the athletic front.

And, you know, I've worked with some stellar athletes as a clinician, and I've worked with lots of people who were at the top of their game professionally, let's say. And usually what that takes on the professional front is something like, well, extreme ability, extreme native ability in whatever area happens to be under consideration. And then dedication that goes above and beyond the norm. And so the typical great scientist, for example, is absolutely 100% obsessed with what they do. It's a 16-hour day job, essentially seven days a week, generally for decades. It's the only way that you get to the top of a profession, let's say, or an endeavor that has any degree of rank order by merit and competitiveness, right? You have to be as able as anyone else or more able, but then you have to be dedicated

beyond, well far beyond the norm because otherwise you're not going to be at the top. So when did you start swimming and what did you have to do on the discipline front? And also I suppose what sacrifices did your family make to make that possible so that you could compete at this level? So I started swimming when I was four years old. I am 22, so I've dedicated 18 years of my life to my sport.

By the time I was eight years old, that's when I really started, I transitioned to swimming year round. So this meant that in second grade, you're swimming two hours every single day, and it really only gets harder from there. Because by the time you get to middle school and high school, you're practicing before school,

then you go straight to school and straight from school, you go back to practice. After practice, you go home, you eat your dinner, you do your homework, you ice your shoulder, you go to bed, but you wake up and do it all again the next day. And I love what you said about being willing. No one forced us to do this, but we knew that's what you had to do to compete at that top level. I was very blessed. Why in the world did, why in the world did you do it? I mean, you know, there's a lot, well, first of all, it's a very,

it's a very focal application of time and energy over a very long period of time, right? And you could argue that there's many things to do in life and why concentrate so obsessively on that single thing. What was it about your family, your situation, your psychology, that or your ability that made this attractive to you? Why did you spend so much time and energy? I think a couple things.

I come from a family of athletes. My dad, he was an SEC football player and went on to play in the NFL. All of my uncles were, they played in the NFL for 10 plus years. They've won Super Bowls done really incredible things. My youngest brother, he's in college playing football. My mom, she was a division one softball player. So I think sports is something that I've always been

almost infatuated by. And it's weird because swimming, of course, it's, there's not necessarily a good word to describe it other than it's treacherous. It's miserable, but in the best way. So it is an interesting dynamic. It is truly this love, hate relationship. You love the team. I love setting goals. I love achieving goals. I loved winning. And in a sense, I loved practicing. Of course, it's painful. It's hard. You wake up at 5am

to go swim three hours right before you go to class all day. There's a lot of, I'll say negatives that go into competing and training at this level, but the positives, they outweigh the negatives 10 fold. There's no better feeling than achieving your goal, winning. I think I'm this person who's driven, I'm competitive, and I think a lot of that stems from my family, from going up with three siblings.

We were always on each other's backs. But it's a blessing. I'm very fortunate for really how I grew up and how my parents raised me. OK, so there was a lot of value in your family placed on athletic accomplishment. But then also on, you talked about two fundamental sources of motivation. And I would say both of those sources of motivation have come under heavy

criticism in recent years. The pleasure that you take, let's say, and achieving goals, that's associated with ambition. And as our culture has been torn apart by this current state of ideological idiocy, people have done everything they can to identify ambition. Or let's say that desire for achievement both with ambition and with dominance and with power. And then you also make a case for enjoying winning, you know, and there are movements in the education field that have been, you know, bandied about probably for a

century, but particularly since the 1960s, predicated on the insistence that all competition is intrinsically wrong and that any endeavor that requires the victory of one and the defeat of many, let's say, which is typically the case, is somehow inappropriate and maybe even at its base immoral. And I suppose that critique can be extended to the whole free market enterprise, you know, where there are clear winners and losers in different domains. So why do you think, and why is this being true for your personally? Why do you think that it's a valid ethical endeavor to be ambitious and to attempt to achieve these higher order goals? And why is it, do you think, that it's appropriate to take pleasure in both competition and competitive

victory? I don't look as ambitious as something that's selfish. I have had my fair share, of course, I am an ambitious person. Again, I like to achieve my goals, but there are many times where I've fallen short of achieving my goals. So it sounds as if you're doing this to win, to compete at that high level and whatever that looks like. But I take value in not achieving my goals.

How can we build from that? How can we continue to use your failures, your shortcomings as a way to continue building up? So as much as I do take value and winning, I think there's a certain aspect to losing that is also beneficial and has really thrusted me into the position that I'm in. That's it's given me the confidence to do what I'm doing, the leadership, the security to take the

arrows that I've been taking. And so I think it's a balance being ambitious. Yeah, well, that's a really good point, you know, on the resilience front, because one of the things that people need to do to develop in their lives is well, you could say grace in victory, but you can also say grace and resilience in defeat and the reason for that is that as we progress through life, as you pointed out, on all fronts, things are not always going to turn out the way we want them to turn out. And we're going to all suffer harsh defeats of one form or another, sometimes justly and sometimes unjustly. And because of that, one of the things that we need to learn and to learn early is how to take defeat in stride. Now, you made a case that not only did you learn to take it in stride,

but that you also learned how to extract value, let's say, from your failures so that you could then proceed to a new level of striving and attainment. You know, when we see someone who's a good sport, and generally that's someone who we might spontaneously admire, we see someone who's a good sport and generally that's someone who we might spontaneously admire, we see someone who doesn't take too much, who doesn't try to become vain, glorious, let's say, as a consequence of winning, but even more importantly, that can take a defeat in good humor, can learn from it and can move forward nonetheless. And the reason we admire that is because we all need to learn how to do that. And you do learn that in the context of competition.

If the competition is structured fairly and as a consequence of like task-specific merit, let's say, which is clearly the case in an athletic realm. Absolutely. So, right. So you think now, you think that you said that you made a lot of sacrifices on the time and energy front, let's say, to engage in this competitive enterprise, but that the rewards, despite the effort, the rewards were much greater than the cost of the sacrifice. So, and you've alluded to some of the rewards. You said that you've been able to discipline yourself and push yourself and you've also

got resilient in the face of defeat, which is crucially important. How do you think that's generalized to the rest of your life? And do you think that's typically the case for people who engage in athletic competition? Like what do you think that does for people in general? I think the higher you compete in terms of what level you're competing at athletically, whether that be high school then college and then whatever sport that you may be doing, Olympic level, I think the higher you compete the more benefits you reap, typically. You learn more about determination, grit, resiliency. Of course, you are able to the athletic achievements continue as well. But the lifelong skills and characteristics you develop

outside of just the athletic achievements. These are skills that will translate far beyond that into your whole life forever. And that's something again that I'm witnessing in myself. I think if I didn't play sports, if I didn't have that sense of teamwork, that sense of, I was team captain at University of Kentucky for two years. So if I didn't have that sense of leadership accountability, really, I think accountability and responsibility is a good word than I don't think I would feel confident enough to take a public stance and the way that I have this past year, which it sounds silly because my stance is so simple

and it's rooted and of course, truth and common sense and science and logic reasoning, all the things. So it sounds silly to say I might not have the confidence and leadership and the security and enough myself to take the arrows that I'm taking. If it weren't for sports, I really do a credit that to being an athlete. There was an Ernst & Young study that said, I think 94% of sea level executives, so CEO, CFO, COO, that are females, we're one's female athletes. And I think that shows how the skills that you develop translate far beyond your sport. Yeah, well, it might, it might seem silly in one sense for you to make any claims to the necessity

for training for just saying the things you're saying, but there aren't that many people saying the things you're saying in this public a manner as you're saying them. And so obviously there's difficulties there that are beyond the typical person's athlete or not, the typical person's ability to withstand. So even if the topic is in some ways surreal, it's definitely the case that it's unlikely that people are going to take a public stance. Now, and so you said you learned to have a certain degree

of confidence in yourself, but also to be able to tolerate a certain amount of stress as a consequence of this highly competitive training. But I would also ask you, you are the team captain, you said, for a number of years. And so what do you think the attributes, what are the necessary attributes of a team captain? Now obviously you have to be very skilled athletically and competitive and that means that you're striving

to for victory, you're striving to be the best on your team, you're striving to break the appropriate records. But you have to modify that, obviously, if your team captain. And so, like, how do you think, how did you reconcile the demands to be the best on the team with the necessity of being a team leader?

And what did you have to learn in order to be an effective captain? I think the thing that I knew, I wanted to implement as a captain. My team at University of Kentucky, there's 40 girls. Obviously, when you're dealing with 40 girls, there's a lot of different personalities, there's a lot of different ways people communicate,

how they handle situations, how they deal with pressure, how they like to be motivated. And so, as a captain, number one, I wanted to be someone that everyone felt like they could talk to. Again, when you're dealing with 40 girls, of course, there's clicks. There's people on the team who are best friends, there are other people who don't necessarily like each other. You work together, but you won't be friends outside of your sport. And so I wanted to be someone who could unite everyone in a sense. I'm not, I don't want to make anyone be friends with someone

they don't want to be friends with, but how can we come together to achieve our goals? And what that looks like in terms of communication, which again, I'm seeing that translate now into my life and how I deal with what I'm dealing with. But I think communication is huge too. I think what strived me to help us all achieve our goals, our goals we set as a team,

was to constantly remind the team of the goals we set. I think it's very often in sports where you talk about big things and then you kind of forget about it. And when it comes championship season or whatever that looks like, you're not geared up to achieve what you've set because you haven't worked towards it, really. You talk about it, but talking about it isn't enough.

So in practice, I would constantly remind people, hey, you know, this is the goal you set for yourself, personally, which can help us achieve our goals as a team. Don't forget that. And I always saw that. Right, so that's that alignment line. Well, one of the most effective leadership strategies, although I hate to reduce it to a strategy because it's more than that is to produce an organization predicated on the intrinsic

alignment of interests, right? And so what you really want, if you set up an organization is you want each person pursuing a goal that they personally value and so are willing to work for and to sacrifice for and to dedicate themselves to. And then you want each of those goals to be serving a superordinate goal that unites and moves the entire team ahead. And then you don't have to use coercion and so forth. And you can imagine if you're doing that helping each athlete become the best they can be on the personal level for whatever personal gain

they might manage in terms of being more resilient and in terms of achievement status and all of those things, comparative status. You're also doing the same thing for the team. And you can see perfect, you can understand with out much effort, how useful that would be in executive management, for example. Like I work with a number of extraordinarily good managers

in the business realm, especially on the legal front and then also in academia. And the really great managers, they had a very light touch. They tended to go around and remove problems before they started. And so it often looked like they were doing almost nothing. But they were also extremely good at aligning people's interests so that everybody was moving in the same desirable direction. And so what do you think you did badly on that front

and had to learn to do better? And what do you think you did well? I think the things I did well, were the things I mentioned. It's especially as a woman, it's difficult to hold each other accountable. Typically women, they don't like to be assertive in that way.

They think it's mean, they think it's, they take it personal. And so something I always tried to do well was hold people accountable in a way that made them want to do better. And I think that falls along with, again, helping people develop personally to reach those team goals, which again,

it's, I don't think even a male can understand necessarily It's, I don't think even a male can understand necessarily how women, how, especially a room, a group of 40 women, that dynamic is hard to navigate. And so holding people accountable, I think it's crucial. And I feel as if I did that relatively well, what I think I could have probably improved on is being a little more understanding. It's hard for me to put myself in someone else's shoes sometimes to consider what they have going on outside of, you know, the sport because we truly did put so much of our identity, so much of our self-worth into our sport that I oftentimes would forget to look at anything other than what's going on in the sport.

If someone was having a bad practice, it was very quick for me to get snippy at them without remotely and thinking about other factors that could contribute to the bad practice, whether that be sleep, diet, school. That's a hard psychological dynamic. And you made a sex-specific comment there too that we could delve into. Well, if you're focused on a particular goal and you're competitive and achievement oriented and you want to win, then your focus tends to narrow to that particular domain. Absolutely. What that means is that you'll sacrifice other interests and concerns for

that particular, what would you say, ability to progress along that particular axis. And as you said, well, that can come across as harsh. Now, on average, women are more agreeable than men. And so that means on average, there less harsh, at least overtly. And you know, it's an open question, and I don't think anybody knows exactly how to answer this question, then what effective leadership on the female front looks like. Now you've faulted yourself, and I would say you've faulted yourself in some sense for taking a more masculine perspective on those sorts of group endeavors, because it's typical among men for a group of men to concentrate

on the goal at hand and to say to hell with all the other concerns, which is something like don't bring your bloody troubles to work, just do your damn job. Now you made the point that that was perhaps differentially challenging when working with women. You think why do you think that? Why isn't that just a sexist claim, for example? I mean why do you think that's the case? Where have you run into that? How would you justify it? And what did you do about it? Right, yeah this is solely based off my experiences. At the University of Kentucky, of course there's a men's team and a women's team. And what did you do about it? Right. Yeah, this is solely based off my experiences.

At the University of Kentucky, of course, there's a men's team and a women's team. My husband now, who I've married, he was on the men's team at Kentucky, just watching their interactions, watching how they can communicate with each other, brush it off, come back to the next practice, and be totally fine.

That doesn't work with girls. Again, based solely off of my experiences, this isn't to over generalize, this is to share exactly what I have seen firsthand. Girls tend to be more moody, they tend to not take constructive criticism as well. Whether that be from the coach or from other teammates or from whoever, but the men men on the other hand especially at the University of Kentucky, which again, I was able to witness

They could get on each other's backs. They could say personal things to each other that even didn't necessarily apply to their sport when they were getting on one another as Women there would be cat fights if we did that, which again, sounds silly, but that's truthfully what I experience on a day-to-day basis. Well, you know, the other, so one of the temperamental differences between men and women is that difference in agreeableness, let's say. And so there's less of a tendency for overt conflict among women. Now that doesn't mean there's less of a tendency for overt conflict among women. Now, that doesn't mean there's less of a tendency

for covert conflict. And actually, what you do see is that anti-social women, right, the ones who can't cooperate well and who can't work together in a team, they use underground strategies like reputation savaging and gossip to what would you say, promulgate their aggressive behavior. Now, men are much more likely to do that up front, and there's some simplicity in that.

But also, women have a proclivity to experience more negative emotion than men, and so for each unit of stress, they manifest more psychophysiological response. That seems to kick in around puberty, and so that additional, call it volatility is the technical term. That's an aspect of trait neuroticism, by the way. That volatility, also that increased volatility, also makes it more difficult, arguably, for women to brush things off the same way

that men who are cooperating in a team might. And I mean, the reason I'm talking about this, by the way, and delving into this is because we are going to get into the topic of sex and gender very soon, because well, that's where we're headed, given that that's the root of the conflict that's made itself manifest around you. And so it's useful to establish and to start to explore the territory that's relevant with regard to sex differentiation. Now obviously, when you were competing, you weren't competing in a co-ed situation.

It was women competing against women and men competing against men. And it's been set up like that for a long time. So given the claims in our society for radical equality, both in actuality and as a desirable outcome, first of all, do you think that there's any, what is if any the justification for not making all sporting events,

let's say radically coed? Well, because I think we know how this would turn out. Time and time again, regardless of the sport, regardless of if it's an individual sport, a team sport, what that might look like. We've seen example after example where a mediocre male or a mediocre men's team, no we're near ranking the top. Let's say this could be nationally,

this could be whatever level you're comparing here. Unanimously, these men, these men's teams, they dominate the women. So having a co-ed team that would not be beneficial to women by any means. So I think that's why I believe there's value to having co-ed instructional teams when, you know, you're younger, when you're learning. But once you've gone through that puberty, it's irreversible. Men are, of course, on average, taller, faster, stronger, more powerful.

They jump higher. There's so many different attributes, advantages that men have in comparison to women. And so I think co-ed teams, in a sense, if that's what you're looking for, of course there's value to it. But at the competitive level, where you're competing again to win, that's what your goal is. Having men compete against women is very obvious. It's unfair. is very obvious. It's unfair. Okay, so let me push this, I'm going to push this as far as I can push it because things are being pushed in our culture as far as they can be pushed. So we might as well go in for

a penny and in for a pound. I could say, well, why don't we just scrap women's sports altogether? Like if the goal is faster, stronger, better, more powerful, and on average, that's not happening in the female domain. Why don't we just give up the entire enterprise on the female sports end and just let the men take over the playing field? If that's the point, you know, if the point is to foster the highest possible level of performance. to foster the highest possible level of performance. So to what? What do you? To say that men are stronger, to say that men are faster, taller, whatever.

That's not to say that women are inferior. That's not to say that we're not capable of amazing things and we're not strong and we're not, again, all of those words I previously mentioned, but we have different physical ceilings. I believe we deserve to be celebrated on our uniqueness. That's what makes the women's sporting category special. And there are still phenomes in women's sports, just like there are male sports. Look at Venus and Serena Williams. While by no means could they compete with the best male tennis player. They're phenomenal. They are, it's amazing

what they've accomplished. They've set themselves apart from every other female in the world. And that deserves to be recognized. So to say we're different. Yeah, let's let's delve it. Let's delve into that. So because you might say, well, there's two reasons for high level competition. And let's say on the athletic front, one would be to extend the domain of what's possible in terms of performance and to model that for other people. And then you could make a case, well, you could make the case that the absolute records are the best example of that.

So the fastest person in the world, the fastest swimmer in the world. And most of the time, that's going to be man. But then you could make a more sophisticated case, which I believe is the proper case that actually what you're doing as an athlete or as any expert in a competitive realm is modeling the ability to push the envelope and to further transform and develop. And unless you believe that that's less important for women, which is a preposterous thing to believe, then you have to believe that setting up a situation where women can push the envelope consistently

in whatever directions they're pushing, you have to presume that that's a psychological good and a social good. And then you have to presume that the spaces where that can occur have to be protected. But that also opens the can of worms, doesn't it? Because since the 1960s, in particular, we've blown off the barriers between men and women in terms of general participation in society. And so we've decided that all things considered, spaces isolated to a given sex are suboptimal.

The schools are co-ed, like the public schools, the universities are co-ed, all business enterprises are co-ed, so to speak. And then, of course, so that raises the question, well, should any domains be left sex-saggregated? If so, how do you walk the fine line between sex-saggregation for the purpose of facilitating development and sex segregation that turns into prejudice and oppression, right?

Just rejection on the basis of sex. And then also the thorny question of, well, if most enterprises should be completely open to both sexes, which enterprises should be protected? Do you have any, obviously, you believe that athletic performance, athletic competition per se, should be one of those protected categories. But do you have any sense of how we as the society should draw the lines? Like, are there spaces that should be male only? Like, one of the things I really wonder about, for example,

I talked to Tulsi Gabbard about this a while back, is like, it isn't obvious to me at all that our society would benefit by having women in frontline combat. Right. Like, and it isn't that I can generate an immediate coherent argument for why I believe that. There's something about it that strikes me more deeply and emotionally, I suppose, that that just, there's something preposterous about that.

Maybe it's partly because, look, it isn't obvious to me that professional frontline combat, that's pretty damn hard on anyone. That's even really hard on extremely well put together and extraordinarily strong and brave man. And so to also presume that that's going to be open to women just seems to me to be taken the whole bloody shirad too far. Now you know, you could say, well, that I'm old-fashioned and prejudice, I don't actually think I'm either. But, you know, it is a thorny question, right? It's like, well, if men and women are equal, then why should there ever

be sex-segregated spaces of any sort? And we're certainly seeing that on the bathroom front. We're seeing that on the change room front. We're seeing that on the athletic front. So what do you, where do you think that the line should be drawn so that there are female spaces and male spaces and that those are protected? And how do you think we manage that like legally and conceptually? I think where any place where either of the sexes is vulnerable, whether that be in regards to privacy, in regards to safety, in regards to anything that relies on your physiology because, of course, men and women are physiologically different.

I think that's where that sex protection-based rights are important. So prisons, that's an area where women specifically are vulnerable. Of course, shelters, again, bathrooms, locker rooms. No woman should be subjected to having a male in that space. So I think it's areas where sex is important. So it's important. Okay, so it's something like, there's a subset of areas where the fact of the biological difference between men and women becomes paramount.

Correct. Right? And so those would be, well, in change rooms is a really good example of that. But you extended that also to say women's shelters and prisons and so forth. So there's something there that's sort of what would you say? It's reminiscent of the idea of nakedness, I suppose, because you mentioned vulnerability, right? So when you're stripped down to your most vulnerable, that's when the segregation is most necessary. It's something like that, right? I believe it seems that way. Yeah, I believe there's value and understanding that I truthfully think anywhere where sex

is relevant. There are certain places, let's consider the workplace. There are certain places where sex isn't necessarily relevant. There are certain places where it are, like how you mentioned military. That's a very good point. Men and women, there are differences there. That would, again, make anything that requires sheer strength. Make men be advantageous and make that more achievable.

That's what we're wanting, right? We want to be this powerhouse. We want men at the forefront. So I think where sex plays a role, that's where we kind of have to draw that line. There are certain... So it would be where the biological differences are germane number one to performance, like specifically germane to performance, but also number two specifically germane to differential vulnerability. So anywhere where women are sexually vulnerable

or anywhere where the physical differences in performance actually have a substantive effect on the performance itself. So here's an example. I mean, there's no evidence that men and women differ in IQ. There are micro differences in IQ, and some of them are arguably important in some micro domains. But overall, the evidence is quite clear that on average men and women have the same level

of intelligence. And so then we might presume that in any domain where intelligence is the fundamental marker of potential merit, there should be no sex segregation. But if we're looking at something like, let's say, military battlefield rescue, that might be a good one, where physical strength and becomes a paramount marker of the actual ability to do the job, then sex-based discrimination starts to become appropriate and morally required. And then you could make the reverse case, which is, well, where women are particularly

vulnerable on the sexual front, so that would be in locker rooms, for example. That's also a place where sex segregation is reasonable. So those are the basic rules, something like that. Not just is it appropriate and morally responsible, it's beneficial. It's something that is good for the greater good of society in general. So yeah, I agree. Okay, okay, okay. Well, that seems to be a reasonable set of rules of thumb.

Okay, now let's talk about one more question about the discipline that was required for you to become a high level swimmer because you said that the benefits were worth the cost, but I'd like to talk a little bit more about the costs. And the reason I'm curious about this is because we're going to talk about Lee Atomis soon, and we're going to talk about the entrance of men into the female competitive realm. And I want people to understand just exactly what's on the line here. So when you are in junior high, which is the time when teenagers start to become, say, more hyper-social. They're spending most of the time with their peers.

They really care about that social time with their peers, they really care about that social time with their peers. They adjudicate almost all of their status and self-confidence in relationship to their peer relations. You're spending what, four hours a day swimming. So what did you, what did you have to give up in order on the social front, let's say, maybe on the relationship front for that matter. What did you have to give up to pursue your single-minded devotion to your sport? It's impossible to put into words what you have to give up. By no sense is this a normal childhood, shall we say?

You don't get to go to prom, you don't get to go on vacations, you don't get to have sleepovers with your friends. And again, no one't get to go on vacations, you don't get to have sleepovers with your friends. And again, no one forced us to do this. My parents didn't force me to play my sport. It's just what I knew I had to do. And so you pick one thing to prioritize.

And for me, it was my sport. But there was a lot of social sacrifices. At the collegiate level, you're missing weeks of school at a time. So right there, you're sacrificing your education in a sense. We're very fortunate that we have resources like tutors and different things that help us not miss out too much. But the amount of things that are altered because of your sport, it's impossible to put into words. the amount of things that are altered because of your sport.

It's impossible to put into words again, my world essentially, all of our world competing at that level. It has to. There's no other option. It revolves around your sport. That that is your priority and everything else really falls in line behind. I missed out on funerals of loved ones because I couldn't leave college to go home, which sounds of course morbid. It sounds toxic. It sounds as if this is crazy. But again, that's just what you have to be willing to do, especially in a sport like swimming. Swimming is obviously unnatural for human beings. We don't have gills. It's not a natural ability. So taking a day off, that's not allowed, especially over COVID. This was a really hard time because again, we never

got sent home. I was at University of Kentucky all summer long. We were there over Thanksgiving. We didn't get to leave for Christmas. You never got to go home. You got to week off in August each year. But over COVID, of course, we did get sent home. This was a struggle, not just physically, but the amount of the toll this had on one mentally, naturally. You've dedicated your life to your sport suddenly, very abruptly. That's taken away. And so when we get sent home, no pools are open, no gyms are open.

We got sent home three days before our national championships my sophomore year. So it felt as if we had trained all year to get to the fastest meet in the world because that's what this meet is, especially short course. The fastest meet in the world you train all year, all your life, you get sent home three days before. That was hard. That was a hard period of time. But being sent home, no pulls, no gyms, nothing is open, constant stress. I was very fortunate to be from Tennessee where there's lots of lakes. So every day, my only option was to put on a wet suit and swim miles aimlessly up and down the lake.

That's all I knew I could do because again, that's how dedicated I was and that's not unique to me. It might be unique in a sense where I had lakes around me, but any of us competing at that level. If you're dedicated to achieving your goals, that's what you would do. So that's what I did every single day for months. Okay, so now we could, let's take a look at your situation. So you're playing a game, you're playing this game of competitive swimming,

and let's lay out the broader social rules. So the rules are something like this. Contribution is the sacrifices you're willing to make and the discipline that you're willing to impose on yourself and the leadership roles that you're willing to take on to help other people do the same thing. That's your contribution. Now the game rule is that if you do your part, then you can compete against other people who are basically facing the same limits you are intrinsically. So those would be people of your sex. And then all of you are competing to transcend your limitations, to become better losers,

to become better winners, to become more resilient people, to become more focused and disciplined. And that's the payoff for you. But all those rules have to apply fairly in order for that game to be justifiable. Now, you're objecting because some of that contractual bargain, let's say, was violated by the COVID pre-prohibitions. But we're now going to turn to a more specific case. So the rules are you're competing against people who have the same limitations you are, so that all of your attempts to transcend your limitations are fair and then equally rewarded. But now we throw a monkey wrench into the works. We decide that a biological male who undergoes a certain amount of psychological and or physiological transformation can now be deemed a woman.

And so let's turn to that. So when were you and your teammates first faced with the necessity of competing against someone who was at one point 100% a biological male. This is something we did in practice oftentimes. So in a sense, we were relatively used to, at least we understood the differences between men and women because we would practice together in the mornings. At nights, we would have different practice times the men and the women's team, but in the mornings, we would practice together for the most part.

So we knew what that looked like. I mean, the worst men's swimmer on the men's team, University of Kentucky, could easily beat the fastest girl on our team. So we knew what that looked like, but in terms of facing a male and competition, that did not happen until our Ensoble championships in March. For my team, there were other teams within the Ivy League, other schools that this was something they dealt with all year long starting in October.

That was what year? That was what year? This was, it started in 2021 to 2022. So 2021 and that you said in March? So it was in March of 2022, but the season began and about October, September of 2021. Okay, okay. Now, so now two questions that come out for that. The first is, when you're practicing with the men in the morning and you see that the worst man on the

male team can swim faster than the fastest woman on the woman's team, can swim faster than the fastest woman on the women's team. What's the appropriate psychological reaction to that? Because you could imagine that, you know, you could imagine two roots. You could imagine on the one hand that it would be demoralizing because it is in terms of absolute performance. Or on the other hand, you could think, well, it's irrelevant because that's not the game, right? The game is that you're competing against people who have your limitations, not people

who have this other set of limitations. I mean, if you're in the pool with Adolfin and it swam faster than you, that wasn't, well, that it's not going to be demoralizing because it's not the same game. So was there any sense of demoralization among the women with regards to the apprehension of the superior performance of the males? Or was that off the table, was that irrelevant? Yeah, that was irrelevant. Of course, we expected to get beat,

but in a sense, it gave us kind of a driving factor. If we were racing next to a male, or whatever that looked like if we're practicing next to a male, you could almost strive to keep up with them because you knew in a sense that you couldn't, but you could kind of set that barrier, let's see how close I can get. So by no means was it demoralizing, it was more so irrelevant if not... I mean, it could be seen as beneficial to competing or not competing training with males, because you're training next to someone who's better than you.

And that's always a good thing, right? If you're dedicated to pushing yourself and bettering yourself. So it was not demoralizing by any means. It was more so a relevant. Okay, okay, okay. So now March 2022, you're at a championship. Maybe you can fill us in on the details here. And is this the first time that you come up against Leah Thomas, particularly?

This is the first time I had swim against Leah Thomas. A little earlier. Okay, tell us that story. Tell us that story. And how did you find out? Tell us the whole story. How did you find out that this was even going to happen? So how did you respond? and how did your team respond? So in about November of 2021, November, December time period, this is about the middle of our season. It's my senior year. I had made it my goal to become a national champion. The year prior, I finished seventh in the country and I knew I could do better. There was a lot of girls who finished above me who were graduating or who They weren't competing in the same events for whatever reason so I knew I could perform better than I had the year before

About November December I Was on track to do so. I was ranked third in the country behind one amazing female swimmer who I knew very well. Because like in most sports, your top tier athletes, you know each other regardless of where you compete in the country, which school you go to, what events you even swim, because you've grown up competing against each other. And she was of course ranked second. And the person who was ranked first was, this was the first time I became aware of Lea Thomas. But at the time, unbeknownst to me, this was a male.

There was a lot of red flags, one of which being this was a swimmer from University of Pennsylvania, which is not a school that historically produces fast swimmers. Think of basketball. You have your schools that historically are pretty good. I've never heard of anyone come from University of Pennsylvania and be a decent swimmer. Two, this person was a senior, which was bizarre. Swimming is a sport where typically you peak when you're younger, to peak when you're 22 years old, that's not common.

Three, this swimmer was ranked at the top and everything, all the free-selevens from the 100 free-sele, which is a sprint, everything in the top and everything, all the free salivants from the 100 free sal, which is a sprint, everything in between to the mile, which the mile is long distance. And so think about your Olympic runners. Your best 200 meter runner is not your best marathon runner, but that's what we were seeing in this individual. Those are totally different systems.

Lots of head scratch, eh? Right, so that's we should concentrate on that for a second, because I think your comments there are particularly germane, because when you're competing at a very high level, small differences in specialization are going to loom large. And so, as you said, in the Olympics, the people who win the sprinting events aren't the people who win the long distance events. Those are even though both of them are running, there's enough difference between those formats

of running and the strategies to completely differentiate the athletes. Now, but you're seeing someone who is all of a sudden far above the average on a whole sequence of events that shouldn't be associated in that manner. Right. And so there's something in the wood pile that isn't just exactly right. And so, and you said at the moment, at that time, you didn't know that this individual Lee Atomas was male. No idea. Lots of head scratching. You know, who is this person?

I talked to my coaches. He knew my goals and he knew this person was a threat to my goals. And we're trying to figure out, you know, why have we never heard of this girl we thought at the time? Why have we never heard of this person? You know, we talked amongst our team. Just it was this feeling. How the hell did you not know?

How is it possible that you didn't know and that your coaches didn't know that this person was mailed? Like this is, this is so weird because it's not like you wouldn't normally, as you said, know who your competitors are. How was this little secret, let's say kept secret? I think it was something the university kept under wraps for a while and I didn't compete again directly

against this person. I had no idea what this person looked like, no idea that this person was six foot four. And it just seemed so far fetched that this could be, that this could be a male. It never even once crossed my mind, never once I was more apt to believe that this was just someone who appeared than it being a male.

I thought that would never happen, especially at the level we were competing at. But it was only a few days after these nation-leading times that it being a male, I thought that would never happen, especially at the level we were competing at. But it was only a few days after these nation leading times were posted that an article came out, and I'm talking in a very brief sentence, as if we were supposed to just read over it and continue on, and the article didn't say this.

Very briefly, the article says, Leotomis is formerly well-tomis and swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania before deciding to switch over to the women's team and then continued on. And so my coach sent me the article and he says, you need to look at this. And I read it and I have to read it again. And I was shocked naturally, of course,

when I read this, but truthfully, it felt like a sense of relief. You know, it made it all make sense. It makes sense why this person is dominating everyone. Again, I'm relating back to my experiences in competing and training, I guess, practicing with men. Naturally, this person is dominating. That's why I say it felt like relief because I was then able to look up who Will Thomas was. I was curious, was this a lateral movement? Was this someone who went from ranking first to continuing to rank first? Which is, of course,

not what we saw. We saw someone. No, no, let's talk about what we saw. Yeah, because this is, this is absolutely relevant psychologically. And this is where I think the rubber really hits the road because it would be one thing, perhaps, to have someone who was outstanding in their fair competition, then become outstanding in your competition. But although Will Thomas was a decent swimmer, he was by no means outstanding. So you could say that comparatively speaking, it wasn't exactly as if he was a failure, because he was a competitive swimmer, but he was no bloody champion. And so to me, and I'm speaking

as a psychologist here, that begs the question, is that, well, he wasn't spectacularly successful on the male front. And so you might ask, well, exactly what are the motivations for choosing to be spectacularly successful on the female front? And that doesn't strike me as part of the bounds of fair competition in any sense of the word, whatsoever, psychologically or socially. Okay, so let's talk about Will Thomas' pre-female record as a swimmer. Absolutely. So what we saw, the year prior, at best, Leo, when Leo was will, was ranked 460 second nationally among the men, at best. So of course, that's why I felt relief because I thought, of course, it was obvious just looking at what's on the paper in front of us.

This was not a lateral movement by any means. I thought the NCAA, which is, of course, the governing body who would ultimately decide if Thomas got to compete with the women, I thought they would see it exactly how I saw it. Nothing opinionated, nothing hateful, nothing rooted in hate, the facts of it. What we were looking at, that is not how the NCAA saw it. They saw absolutely nothing wrong with allowing Thomas to go from a mediocre male to now the fastest woman in the country. Okay, so let me ask you a question here. mediocre male to now the fastest woman in the country.

Okay, so let me ask you a question here. This is gonna require some speculation on your party. So we might say, well, it's all about winning. And so why not set up the contest so that you can win? And I know this is preposterous. Imagine you wanted to play one-on-one basketball for entertainment and you decided that what you were going to do is win. And maybe you're... So you decided to play basketball with your... I could do this, even though I don't know how to play basketball with a damn. I could pick my three-year-old grandson to play basketball against,

and I just stomped the hell out of him, man. Pretty regularly, right? And pretty convincingly. And I would be the winner. And anyone with any sense would look at that and say, well, that's pretty pathetic kind of victory there, buddy. You know, why don't you pick on someone your own size? And anyone with any sense would also point out, well, you know, it's probably the case that if you pick the wrong opponent, which is someone that you can trounce regularly without effort, that's really not going to be very fun. And that's partly because you're not pushing yourself in any real sense. You're not breaking, pushing the boundaries. You're not developing yourself. You're certainly not helping them develop. You're demoralizing them. So I could say, well, Riley, why don't

you, why don't you enter yourself into like a contest, swimming contest for girls, but in the like 10 year old division. You know, you could win hands down quite handily. I would presume you could make quite the fools out of those 10 year old girls. And so now, and this is what I would like you to speculate on. Like, what kind of mental gymnastics do you think you would have to perform internally? So that if you did that and you won, you would think that in any way you were actually a winner.

You know what I mean? Like, how do you have to twist and dement yourself to the point where you believe that having done that and accomplishing your aim, which is the devastation of your opponents, that you're now someone who can celebrate themselves, here's my trophy. And that others celebrate, and that anyone who refuses to celebrate is now bigoted. So how, what kind of mental state do you have to be in to do that? I think what that boils down to is, of course, selfishness and entitlement. That's the word I think of when this whole trans movement, it's as if they feel owed something, they feel entitled to winning. And they have another disregard towards everyone

else. For everyone else's happiness, feeling, safety, privacy, dignity, as long as discipline, sacrifices, right? All of the things that you that you put into this, the thing that I find so utterly appalling about this, although there's many things is that, you know, you really spent, as you said, 18 years preparing yourself for this. And that came at an entrepreneurial cost. And I mean, I'm not feeling sorry for you, but what I am thinking is, well, you know, you were playing a straight game.

And the consequence of that was that you were then subjected to a crooked championship, like hyper, hyper crooked, hyper moralistic. Yeah. And that you were, you were thrown into the ring with someone who's an unrepentant narcissist. And then because of your objections, we're also pilloried morally, which is just, you know, the icing on the cake. Okay, so now you find out that Leah will, is a man, not was, but is a man. And he's decided that he's a woman and the people who are enabling this idiot narcissistic delusion have also decided that he's a man and so now you're facing him in competition. So what sort of Shock waves, let's say does that send through you psychologically, but also through your team? It's, um, swimming is, of course, a physical sport.

There's a lot of, there's several physical aspects that go into it. But just like any sport, there's so much mental that goes into it as well. So I can't even tell you what this distraction, because that's ultimately take away the unfair competition piece. That's ultimately what this was. It's ultimately take away the unfair competition piece. That's ultimately what this was. It was a huge distraction. It was all anyone could talk about. There was so much media attention, which I think we can all agree swimming is not a sport that typically garners media attention. There was awkward whispers on the pool deck of people who felt so uncomfortable and wrong, but didn't

feel comfortable enough to say it loudly. There was side eyes, eye movements. There was so much that just kind of made you feel as if you were living in this twilight zone. So that's what that piece looked like from the mental aspect. So what do you mean living in a twilight zone? What was that like psychological? I have a specific reason for this,

which I'll tell you about, but what do you mean, what do you mean it was like a twilight zone? It felt as if in my perspective, two years ago, maybe a man enters a woman's locker room, he's immediately arrested and charged with voyeurism and decent exposure, sexual harassment. I'm sure the list could go on.

But now, not only was it happening, it was being celebrated, it was being encouraged. It just felt as if so quickly, again, maybe I was naive to how rapidly this was happening or if this had been happening for a while and now kind of doing more research and studying up on this I realized it Happened quick in a sense, but this has been it's been happening for a while and this was their ultimate goal for a while now So there's a there's a marker for traumatic stress by the way One of the markers for traumatic stress is a phenomenon called de-realization. And so if something happens to you and you can't believe it's happening, then that's a marker for the development of traumatic stress disorders. Now it's not an invariable marker, but it's a pretty

good marker. And so you're talking about a situation where you'd play a straight game and we're in a straight game for 18 years. And then one of the most fundamental rules of the game was flipped. And not only with regards to swimming, and that's not nothing because you devoted your life to it. And so had your other, has so had your teammates. But also with regards to the locker room, because right, there's two things going on here. Not only are you competing against Will Thomas, who now calls himself Leah and has his idiot accolades going along with that, but there's the locker room issue too. So let's fast forward to the competition itself. Tell me about the locker room situation and then also tell me about

what it was like to compete that day. I'll start by kind of feeling you in on the competition. So that first day of competition was I don't have any events that fall on this day. So this was a day that I didn't compete. But this was the 500 free style was one of the events, which was the event that Leah swam the first day. Again, being an event I didn't compete in, I got to sit on the side of the pool and watch this. And if you don't know how swimming works at this level, you swim in the morning, you have to swim prelimbs, but you have to qualify for finals

to come back and swim again at night. So top 16, make it back and swim again. And so I'm watching prelims in the morning. And there's several heats, maybe eight or so heats. And so this girl comes up next to me. She had just swam in one of the earlier heats. She, her name is Reika. She swam for Virginia Tech.

She's a fifth year because of COVID. We got an extra year of eligibility to which she took. She was from Hungary. And she stayed in the US. I asked her, I was like, why, why did you take your fifth year? And she said, I wanted to become an all-American. And so she was standing next to me. She was out of breath. Her heart rate was high. And she was watching the result board to see if she made top 16. And she realizes as the last heat dives in the water, which this is the heat that Leah is swimming in in the morning. She realizes she's going to be right on the cusp of making it back. She watches Leah dominates, beats everyone in the water

by seconds, which in swimming even one second is a ton, but Leah beat everyone in the water by multiple seconds, body links, and these are Olympians. These are the most impressive female swimmers of all time. But again, beats everyone. Raka looks up to the result board, and she realized she placed 17th. And I knew her relatively, I didn't know her well, but I knew her name, and we're know her well, but I knew her name.

And we're standing next to each other and she grabs me, grabs my hand, looks at me with tears coming down her face. And this is when my feelings shifted because up until this point, I felt kind of mad, just confused, I felt mad that the NCAA frustrated, they didn't see it how I saw it. But she grabbed my hand, tears rolling down her face.

And she says, I just got beat by someone who didn't even have to try. And that's when my feeling shifted to heartbreak. Seeing how this affected her, knowing she put in the same work to a level that I did, knowing she stayed an extra year from her home country and Hungary in the States. So she could achieve this goal. And she just had that stripped from her. And again, that's when it felt like I'd been punched in

the gut. And so we come back that night, and of course, Leot Thomas swims to a national title, beating everyone. The time Leah went this year would have beat everyone in the country again, or sorry, the time Leah went last year would have beat everyone in the country again this year. or sorry, the time Leah went last year would have beat everyone in the country again this year. By seconds. So Leah became the first male to win a national title for on the women's side. That next day of competition, this was the day that Thomas and I competed against each other in the 200 freestyle. We both swam in the morning, we qualified top eight, we came back that evening, and we raced, and almost impossibly enough, we tied. So we went the exact same time down to the hundredth of a second, which I won't say never

happens in swimming, but that's rare, right? To touch the wall at the exact same time. And so we actually tied for fifth place. It wasn't a best time for either of us. I didn't perform my best and Thomas, I can speculate. I like how you use that word. I can speculate in a minute about what I think. But we go behind the awards podium after our race, and the NCAA official looks at both Thomas and myself, and says, great job. You guys tied.

We don't really account for ties in terms of trophies. We only have one, so that trophy goes to Leah. And so I was, of course, taken aback by this, not because I wanted the tangible trophy. I'm a 12-time All-ican, so I have lots of those. But it was the principle of him outright looking at me as if it didn't matter and telling me that Leah got the trophy. And so I questioned- So what was the justification- yeah, exactly.

What the hell's the justification for that decision? I questioned- I mean, minimum you'd expect a coin toss- Absolutely. ... to randomize it. So what the hell's going on there exactly? And I asked exactly that. I said, you know, why?

I understand we tied. I understand there's one trophy. But why are you adamant on Thomas having this trophy? And he was not prepared to answer this. They hadn't been questioned. And when I say they, I mean the NCAA. They hadn't been questioned for anything they had done thus far. So he kind of stumbled on his words and said, oh, well, we're just

doing this in chronological order to which I press back again. Okay. I said, what are you being chronological about? Because we tied. And if you're referring to our names, I'm certain that G comes before T. So what are you being chronological about, to which he didn't have an answer. And he says, back, well, Leah has to have the trophy for photos. You can pose with this one, but you'll have to give it back

and you go home empty handed and Leah takes the trophy home. We can eventually- Oh, so Leah has to have, Leah has to have the trophy for photos. Okay, so that's the rationale. Okay, so let's, let's just delve into that for a second. So now I'm going to put myself in Leah Thomas's place and Will Thomas's place.

And I'm going to think, well, you know, I'm six foot four and I'm a man. And I just tied this young woman who's been working her whole life to become a fast swimmer. And comparatively speaking, she's a much faster swimmer than me because I was 460 second among my peers and she's third. And now I've tied her and now these people have come up. And there are arbitrarily going to award a trophy to me, even though there's no evidence that I deserved it.

At best, there's a 50% crack, 50% chance that I'm the deserving party here. So what that would mean is that if Leotomus was being a proper gentleman, let's say, he would have done one of two things. He would have said, well, we have to flip a coin. Or I won't take the trophy. Or he would have said, well, I'm not going to take the trophy because it's unfair that you gave it to me under these circumstances. And yet he did neither. Instead, he took the trophy and he went posed for the damn photographs. And so it's very difficult for me as a clinician to see anything in that other than all the

hallmarks of extraordinarily narcissistic and entitled behavior. Because it is such a violation of what would you say, the minimum professional athletic standards that it's a kind of miracle. And the fact that the NCAA would promote that kind of pathological narcissistic behavior is really quite the bloody miracle. So, and anyways, that's what happened. So, so now he's out there, what, parading around with this trophy, towering over the girls. And we are watching him do this, like, what the hell are you thinking? Is he actually enjoying himself?

Like, it's so preposterous, right? Because I can't, I just can't imagine how anybody can be foolish enough to think that what they've done actually constitutes an accomplishment. And then to get all that false attention, you're such a hero, you've made such sacrifices, it's all, it's lies at every single level of analysis. And yet he's basking in the glory. You know, and also claiming that anybody who might object is nothing but, you know, a prejudice bully. When in fact, he's 100% and obviously the bully abetted by the NCAA. So you're watching this, what the hell are you thinking?

It felt as if I had been reduced down to a photo op. That's how I felt. I felt like, again, everything that I'd worked my entire life for was reduced to this photo opportunity to validate the feelings of a male at the expense of my own, not just my own, every female swimmer at that meet. It felt as if, of course, I understand the implications of Title IX, which was just to ensure equal opportunities and prevent discrimination on the basis of sex. It felt as if we were totally throwing it out of the

window in that moment. We were doing a 180 in the guise of being progressive. We were moving forward. This is progress. This is not progress. This is taking us back at least 50 years in time, 51 years in time to 1972 when Title 9 was enacted. This is not progress.

How can we sit here and actually say that women losing out on opportunities, women losing spots on the podium to a male is progress. That is quite literally the opposite. That's how I felt. I felt as if it was at this point, truthfully, when I realized that was fed up, because I knew up until this point,

I knew the unfair competition was wrong. This wasn't trivial. I knew up until this point, I knew the unfair competition was wrong. This wasn't trivial. I knew this. I knew the locker room was long, which I know I'm going to touch on because I think it's important. I knew that was wrong, but this piece, this whole trophy incident. And again, it wasn't about the tangible trophy for me. It wasn't about something as simple as holding it.

That's, it was the principle behind it. So, okay, so a couple, now it sounds to me, you know, because part of me thinks, well, I have no idea why the women's team, your women's team, for example, agreed to compete against Lea Thomas to begin with. Now, I'm going gonna modify that a bit. I think the reason, in all likelihood, that you agreed is because you guys were confused and you didn't know what was hell was going on

and you couldn't believe it. And so I think you were thrown into a situation that required more preparation and philosophical finesse than would have been reasonable to expect from you. But I have been struck by the fact that the vast majority of female athletes seem willing to, there are no worse than university professors on the woke front, by the way. It's the same bloody thing. But it is striking to me because it isn't the least bit unreasonable for the female athletes just to get together and say, we're not competing against men.

Like, period, if you want to do that, we're not going to attend the meets. We're not going to play that idiot game. And so, now, you've decided in many ways not to play that game, but you're obviously still representing at least formally a minority position. I know that behind the scenes, like the probability that the vast majority of female athletes feel that this is a travesty, you know, unless they're doing some idiot woke virtues signaling at their own expense, That's 100%. But why do you think that people who are doing what you're doing given the vast and self-evident injustice of this situation? Why do you think they're so

rare? And why in the world are you different? It's, I think they're rare for a couple of reasons. And these are some pieces I want to touch on. a couple of reasons and these are some pieces I want to touch on. One, the silencing aspect that has gone into this. I've talked to many of Leotomus' teammates at Great Links, one of which only just this week has alerted me. She's really ready to use her name behind speaking out. It's taken her four years to recover from everything. And when I'm talking to her, I'm asking her, you know, why are you so scared? What they went through is nothing short of chilling. I mean, it's truthfully scary to think of the suppression.

They had, they were forced to go every week to mandatory LGBTQ education meetings to learn about how just by being cisgender, they were oppressingly atomis. Yeah. How long per week did they have to attend the Maoist re-education camps? I know what— I'm not sure what the time looked like, but they alerted me. It was every week.

They had to go. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's good. I see. So, not only did they get to be defeated unfairly, but they had to go learn about how immoral they were for being annoyed about it. Well, that's exactly because when they sent an email to their administration, expressing, along with their parents on the email, expressing their discomfort in the locker room, their administration responded back with, if you feel uncomfortable seeing male genitalia

in your locker room, here are some counseling resources that you should seek. They were told that they are not allowed to take a stance because their school has already taken their stance for them. They were told you will never get a job, you will never get into grad school, you will lose all your friends, you'll lose playing time,

you'll lose your scholarship if you speak out. They were told that if you happen to speak out and any harm whatsoever comes toward Leotamas 's way, whether that be physical harm, emotional harm, whatever that looked like, then they were solely responsible, which that's a big way to put on anyone. These girls were emotionally blackmailed. They were gassed into making themselves feel wrong for feeling as if they wanted fair competition, which is traumatizing, right? I mean, these girls who is this, who is this teammate? Or can you reveal her name yet or not?

I don't know if she wants me to reveal her name. Yeah, okay. There are several. I'll track that down separately. Yeah. There are several of them. And I think you would be a great outlet for her to even just... Tell her I'll talk to her when she... Behind the scenes. ...behind the scenes. ...whenever she wants. This girl in particular, actually, she disclosed to me again privately that when she was in

high school, she was raped, which again is traumatic. And when she began to share that locker room space with Leah, who would, she disclosed shower in their locker rooms, would undress, of course, fully exposed in their locker rooms. That was very... He's quite the scum, he's quite the scum rat, all things considered. No, I'm, I'm dead serious about that. There is 100% no excuse for that. And what those administrators did to the teammates of Leotomus is it goes way beyond immoral. It verges on it. It's evil. It's just on criminal. Oh, man, it's really something. But this girl when when she went with her background and being sexually assaulted,

she went to her coach immediately and said, this is really hard for me. Is there something we can do? And he said, I'm sorry, you have to be inclusive. That's what they were doing to these girls. So that's why a lot of these girls are terrified of this. If you watch what happened to Nicole Asturgeon, the minister of Scotland, she tried to be inclusive with the serial rapist?

Absolutely. Turns out there are some people, you just can't be that inclusive with. And psychopathic serial rapists who are claiming to be women so they can get access to women, turns out Sharon a locker room with them is probably not in anyone's besties. It's not kind.

Isn't that a shock? No. Yeah, yeah, no, it's really quite something. Yeah, so let her know I'd be happy to talk to her. And if she wants to round up a couple of her teammates, we could do a nice podcast. They would love that. And lay bare everything that, well, let's do it. And we'll lay bare everything.

The idiot, virtue signaling, woke administration laid on them when they were doing nothing, but trying to defend themselves. Absolutely. It's okay. Okay, so let's talk about the locker room situation. So now, not only are you and your teammates being stomped by this second rate male who is narcissistically claiming to be a female, so he can get his photo ops and aggrandize himself, but you have to share a locker with him as well.

So what the hell do you think is going on in his mind when he's stripping down next to these women, apart from the fact that he's extremely fortunate to be there, let's say. But no, seriously, what do you think is going on with him? How is he acting? How is he behaving? Does he have the good graces to at least look somewhat embarrassed? Does he go change somewhere where he can't be seen or is he right there out in the open flaunting his package, let's say? He was in the open, granite in a corner relatively, as if that's supposed to make anything better, it doesn't. But I'll kind of set the scene.

First of all, swimming locker room is not necessarily a place of modesty. Locker rooms are uncomfortable in general for anyone, bar adding someone of the opposite sex into that space. But growing up a swimmer, you almost feel comfortable being vulnerable in that environment. These suits you put on, they're skin tight. So it takes about 15 minutes to really tuck and poke and prod yourself into these suits, 15 minutes of which you're fully exposed. But this locker room, it's also a place of buzzing and chatter. You get to see your friends from all over the country who

you haven't seen all year. It's an exciting place. Lots of lots of talking, lots of laughing. place, lots of lots of talking, lots of laughing. But I can't even tell you the dead silence in the room when all of the sudden, well first it got silent. I turn around and unsure why it got so quiet so quick. I turn around, there's a 6 foot 4, 22 year old male, dropping his clothes and is fully intact with an exposing male genitalia. So let me be clear, we were not for warned, we would be sharing this changing space, no one told us, no one asked for our consent, we did not. So what did you think?

What did you think in that situation? I mean, what went through your mind? The first word that went through my mind was betrayal. Yeah, right. That's the first thought I had. The people who were supposed to be ensuring our privacy protecting us failed on every front and bare minimum did not tell us.

So I immediately left the locker room. I immediately left and I went to one of the officials on the Poldec who just one of the officials and I went up to him and I said, you know, I understand the guidelines for the meat, which was at the time it was only 12 months of hormone suppression. I said, I know that, but what are the guidelines

for the locker room? In word for word, this is what he says. Oh, we actually got around this I said, I know, I know that. But what are the guidelines for the locker room? In word for word, this is what he says. Oh, we actually got around this by making the locker rooms unisex. So I'm thinking I'm like, okay, unisex. Okay, so this means that any man could have walked into our locker room.

Any man, not just a self identifying woman. Any man, a coach, an official, I guess, a parent, if they could be on the pool deck. A fan seeking opportunity? And no one told us. That's why I say it felt like. That's a nice touch. I like that.

I really like the fact they didn't tell you that. That's real sweet of them. Yes. So, that's why I say it felt like betrayal. It felt like belittlement. Of course, it's awkward. It's embarrassing. It's uncomfortable.

There are so many feelings. Yeah, it didn't feel like betrayal, by the way. It was 100% was betrayal at the deepest possible level. And not only was it betrayal, it was conniving, cowardly,, sneaking subtle camouflage betrayal. Absolutely. Because they didn't have the goddamn good graces to come out and tell you. Right.

You know, they sprung it on you, so to speak. And so that is absolutely 100% unforgivable. And then to do that under the guise of making the locker rooms unisex, that's just cherry on the, that's just icing on the cake, man. It takes a real, what would you say, conniving malevolent underground genius to come up with something that sneaky and pathetic?

Absolutely. Oh, so that was quite the fun meat for all you female athletes, right? You got stomped real nicely on the competitive front. You got to have such good time in the locker room too, with this six-foot-four narcissistic wannabe who's parading around not only his parts, but his virtue in this absolutely contemptible sense. And then, of course, if you object to it, you're now the bad guy. Let's talk about that a little bit.

You were at San Francisco State University, right? So that's fun. Don't go to universities, because they're pretty damn pathological. So now you went there and you were invited to go there. So you're actually a guest. So in principle, they should treat you nicely since you're a guest and you're taking your time and energy to go talk to people. Who invited you? And why? And what happened when you went there? I was invited by the Leadership Institute, which is an organization that tries to advance, really they uphold the freedom of speech. They do, they try to advance the conservative movement

on college campuses. And so I spoke at a turning point event. I'll kind of fill you in step by step of what this looked like. I got there. I was supposed to meet the campus police department in hour and a half before the event. We were set to meet at this parking garage and then walk over to the event together. The police never showed up.

I didn't think much of it. There was still an hour and a half before, so I figured I could just walk over and I'm sure they would make their way over. We would talk about an exit strategy if something were to happen, which I thought I knew what I was getting myself into. I knew this was San Francisco,

I knew this was a different environment, which almost excites me, not because I want controversy or because I'm looking for arguments, but because this is an opportunity to get in front of people who don't agree with me. I was more hopeful that they would come with somewhat of an open mind to which they simply didn't.

There were some. There were some civil. Yeah, that was definitely naive. That was definitely naive. I'm really excusable and acceptable while you were going to University campus, did you think you were conservative? I am sorry, did you say did they think or do I think? No, no, do you? Well, you know, you talked to Turning Point. That's Charlie Kirk's organization. Right. It's definitely a conservative organization. Did you have before all of this, did you

consider yourself a political creature? Did you have a political home or an affiliation? I am. I've always been politically in tune. I've always been pretty up-to-date and knowledgeable about the different issues we face and what that looks like. And typically, my views do align conservative. That's not to say, I review. I'm not someone who is going to feel like I have to lean a certain way because that's how I align. That's not me.

But I like to be well versed. I like to be knowledgeable about what's going on. So I've always been in tune, shall we say, but by no means did I have any sort of political background or any sort of ulterior motive to where I wanted to be in the position that I'm in. Right, right. So you weren't a political actor. Oh goodness, no. But always tried to be knowledgeable. Who's where? Who's doing what? I always watch the news and things of that. But by no means did I feel equipped for the position I'm in? I still don't. I'm learning. No, no, I bet. I'm learning every day.

Okay, so back to, back to SFU, you're there. The police who are supposed to help you don't show up. And so you're looking forward to this event. And so let's continue walking through the days events. So we walk over to the room. It's in a building. It's on the third floor. Very quickly, the room, it's in a building, it's on the third floor. Very quickly, the room fills up.

It's about 50-50 supporters versus protesters in the room. But they very quickly reached the maximum capacity to which the administrators who were present said, you know, we're not allowing anyone else in the room. And I was cool with that. allowing anyone else in the room. And I was cool with that. I understood up at this point that there was some counter events going on, some protests around campus, one of which they organized this big sign-making event where the protesters, they got together and they all made signs and they all walked over together. They were assured to sit in to where they sat in the speech, which again, I'm, I understand that's your right to

protest, you have the right to organize. By no means do I think that I'm worthy of stopping that. That's understandable. As long as again, it's it's civil and somewhat respectful, right? So I was able to deliver my speech.

I talked for probably 40 minutes and let me read or able what my speech was. I talked about what it takes to compete at that level. My background, how this is a lifelong journey, I talked about the competition, I talked about the locker room, I talked about the silencing piece, not just from the female athletes, but parents, administrators, medical professionals, even. Nothing opinionated. Really, my speech, there's no opinions in it. It's strictly my experience. So I was able to deliver the speech. I answered questions afterwards to which I was met with lots of questions and oppositions, which I find extremely easy to answer, whether they take my answer, that's on them, but they're all easy to answer.

But it was only after the speech. I just had concluded it had been probably an hour. Everyone was standing up to leave. And as people were standing to leave, first of all, I should mention, while I was giving my speech, I could hear people outside the building. I could hear them chanting, and it was a large group of people you could tell. I could hear them chanting things such as trans women or women or other chance they could

come up with. But as I continued my speech, I could hear chants getting closer and closer to when I concluded I could hear these people right outside the hallway to where one side of the hallway would yell, trans rights are under attack, where one side of the hallway would yell, trans rights are under attack, the other side of the hallway would yell back, what do we do, we fight back? And so I could hear this, which was a bit unnerving

just to know that they were right outside the door. But again, I didn't really let it bother me, that's not something that necessarily shook me at the time. But everyone stood up to leave. All of a sudden, a mob of people enter into the room, they rush into the room. They flicker the lights, they turn the lights off. And this is when they rush to the podium where I was

and some other members of the Turning Point chapter were. And this is where we were met with assault and violence. And I- So they turned the lights off, so how dark is it in there when the lights are off? This period is a blur to me. It all happened so quickly. I felt so disoriented, I felt so jostled,

I felt so confused, you know, what is happening? I was told, Grinit, I never talked with the police before this, but the turning point members told me, you know, the police said they're going to lock the doors at a certain time. There should be no problems. We'll be good. So I was under the impression that the doors would be locked, which they were not.

So it all just happened so quickly. But yes, they turned the lights off and it was nighttime outside. So it's pitch black in this room, which of course you have to imagine. So it's really dark. Oh, so that was a sneaky little move. You have to imagine. Yeah, the campus police are completely, they're, oh, of course it's intentional. They know exactly what they're doing. And, and the campus police are 100% unprepared for any real aggression. Absolutely. You know, they Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, to some degree, that's on them and it's on the administration, but it's

also outside their normal course of training and activity. They have no idea what to do. So the idea that you're going to be protected by campus, police on campus, you can bloody well, just forget about that. That's not going to happen. Okay, so now it's dark. And who is it that's rushing you exactly and how many of them are there a mob of trans rights activists whether that be Trans individuals themselves whether that be people within this LGBTQ community whether that be

Someone who just considers themselves and allied to this community. There were so many different I Don't want to say combinations of a person, but there were men dressed as women and women dressed as men and everything in between. So it was very, again, disorienting. It was like, who am I being met with? What is happening? So as the lights are flickering, the lights are on, they're off. An officer approaches me very quickly and she grabs me.

And she's wearing nothing that indicates she's an officer. And again, I hadn't met her. She never alerted me. She was in the room. Her face is covered with a mask. And she tells me very quickly trying to pull me along. As more people are filtering into the room, she says, come with me.

I'm with the police. And I didn't believe her. Why would I believe her, right? So I was very hesitant. I was reluctant. But truthfully, I had no other choice at this point because I was being we were being rushed at the front of the room. So we kind of navigate out of the room. We're only met with more protestors once we get into the hallway. We couldn't even come out of the door of the classroom because there were so many people filtering in that we had to go out this backdoor that led us to another classroom to get out that way.

To which when we got to the hallway, you looked down to the staircase. There's hundreds of people. You look down to the other staircase, of course, which is your exit path to get out of the building, and it's hundreds of people. So ultimately, we had no other choice

than this officer led me to another room along that same hallway and it's hundreds of people. So ultimately we had no other choice than this officer led me to another room along that same hallway where I was barricaded for three hours, over three hours, which was interesting. It was, I mean, you, in those moments, in those hours, you fear for your life, hearing what these people are yelling, hearing the things they want to do to you.

An array of things, all of which were violent and vengeful and hateful and all of the words, of course, in the Let's hear them. Let's hear them. What did they tell you? Some of the things they were yelling? One of the terms they kept using, which I think is so ironic, they kept saying we fight back. And I thought about this and I thought the day before think is so ironic, they kept saying we fight back. And I thought about this. And I thought the day before this event, the day before the press secretary of the Biden administration and a press conference

said the words, our trans community, they're resilient and they fight back. And so it just kept replaying in my head. Wow, they're using verbatim, the same verbage that Jean-Pierre, whatever her name is, is using. They were yelling things. I see. So this is right from the top.

That's one of the things that really makes you wonder just exactly what country you're in at a time like that, doesn't it? Absolutely. When the people who are threatening you and barricading you in, because you're objecting to being, what would you say, subjected to an unfair competition by any reasonable standard?

And now you're being mobbed by half-demanded lunatics, directly who are directly acting out words that have come up, come from the highest possible state, or well, federal authorities. Yeah, that's real cute. There's a betrayal for you. That's a nice one. They were yelling things, um, such as to the officers who were standing outside. They were saying, you know, you're only protecting her because she's white. They were yelling things

which is, they were yelling things such as, you know, you shouldn't have come here. You should have known what you were getting yourself into. You knew we would write it, let her out of that room so we can handle her ourselves at a point. Mm. But do you think what had happened, what do you think would have happened just out of curiosity or what were you imagine would happen if they would have got access to?

It's a scary thought. You have any sense? Like realistic, yeah. It's scary thought. But we saw what happened to Posey Parker in New Zealand. Absolutely. I mean, she got mom quite nicely and she had tomato soup, doused owner.

It never got to the point of, you know, permanent physical violence, but they would have. But what did you, what do you think would have happened? I think just that. I think these people based off of what they were saying. I mean, they were explicitly saying they wanted to hurt me. I don't know to what extent that looks like, but I'll tell you, these people are, they

were unhinged. They were relentless. And that's something they kept saying is we're not letting up. Right. Well, and they're in a mob too, which is always a bad thing, right? Because even if each of those people was only 5% insane on their own, in a mob, they're 100% insane. And so, yeah, so how many people are in there barricaded in with you?

And why were the barricades effective? Why didn't they just hammer down the doors and have out? It was just in terms of people in the room other than the officers. It was just me in that room. There was a few officers who would filter in and out, but there was a few campus officers who stood outside the door who kept people from, I guess, tearing down the door. How did they treat you? How did the officers themselves treat you?

What was their attitude towards you like? I was, I of course, respect law enforcement and applaud them for their job because it's a hard job and it's a thankless job. But these officers were, I don't know if pitiful is too harsh, but they were terrified. They were terrified. They were scared to be seen as anything other than an ally to this community. There was one person in the mob who was African-American who, I guess the officer just had to push around a little and to which this person yelled back, you know, you're only doing this

because I'm African-American. I'm going to sue, and so these officers, they don't want to put themselves in that position. They've seen how that's gone in the past, again, to a much greater extreme, but they don't want to deal with this. They want all hands off deck. So it affected how they did their job. They were terrified of creating a safe exit strategy for me, using force by any means. I missed my flight home,

to which I told them, you know, I'm gonna miss my flight. Is there something we can do? I wanna go home. I don't wanna be stuck in San Francisco anymore. To which at this point, I wanna go home, I don't wanna be stuck in San Francisco anymore. To which at this point, I began to get upset. So you're essentially, at that point, you're essentially kidnapped. Well, it gets even better from there because,

inside this room, I could hear these protesters on the outside, and probably two hours are so in, maybe two and a half, these protesters, the dean of students shows up. These protesters are trying to negotiate if I make it home safely. They're saying if she wants to make it home, she has to pay us. To which the Dean of Students is negotiating with them. They all claim... Pay, pay you. What, pay you, meaning what?

I had to pay the mob. That's what they were claiming. What, what did you have to pay them? A couple of suggestions made. But was the idea? One person suggested, you know, if she wants to make it home safely, she has to pay us $10 each, which is so silly. It's not silly. It's kidnapping.

It's not silly. It's horrible. It's beyond reproach. And so it's beyond surreal. Well, that's amazing. And so the dean of this, the dean of students didn't take names and decide that those were some students that could be easily dispensed with and removed from the campus permanently. She decided she'd negotiate with them play nice because after all they were doing was kidnapping you and extortion and engaging in extortion with the threat of violence. That's all they

were doing. Whereas you were complaining about the fact that you'd been subjected to an utterly unfair competition by officials that had betrayed you. That's your crime. Their crime is kidnapping and extortion. And you'll love this. Cute. Because after this event, I can, and I can talk a little bit about how I actually got out, but after this event, rather than releasing a statement saying we condemn violence or we have to uphold the freedom of speech, the vice president of student affairs, her name is Dr. Jamilla Moore. She sent out an email to their student body. And this email, it says, we applaud our brave students. They were in a situation where they were met with adversity. They were met with, um, they were put in a very hard circumstance listening to someone who spreads violence.

And we applaud their bravery and their peaceful protest, sent an email to their university describing what I went through as peaceful. And so I read this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so curious. You know, that's a real, that's a real backhanded compliment that you're a sufficiently terrifying horse to have oppressed, you know, 200 rampaging mobsters, you know, you really are quite the monster if you were able to manage that. Exactly.

Well, you're, well, you're being barricaded in a room and essentially kidnapped and extorted. So, you know, that's definitely a compliment. Totally. Most backhanded possible way. Yeah, yeah, well, it's quite something to watch this, to watch this, this offer of an extended sense of victimization to the perpetrators themselves, you know, had to undergo all the trauma

of having to listen to you, describe how you would be traded by the NCAA and by the Biden administration and by all the virtue signaling dimwits who thought that forcing you and your teammates to compete against a man was actually acceptable and morally justifiable. And so now we're in a situation where your mere attempts to defend yourself are regarded as some variant of hate speech and provocation of violence. Yeah, that's perfectly goddamn delightful. That's a lovely way to think about it. So, yeah, I don't suppose you heard

from anyone like Kamala Harris, for example, complimenting you on your bravery. I know she sent off a mis of a while back to Dylan Mulvaney, you know, letting him know what a brave soul he was for doing whatever the hell it is that he's doing. I don't suppose you heard anything from from anybody up in the Democratic authorities. I sure have not. You're bravery. Absolutely. Yeah, I bet you haven't.

No, yeah, that is, I'm not holding my breath. That's no, no, no, no. Okay, so let's look, we should wrap this up. We've been going for about 90 minutes. That's a lovely story to conclude with. And so, wow. So one final question, perhaps, and maybe there's something else you want to add as well. That's quite the experience you went through at SFU. I experienced something like that at Queen's University. We were barricaded into, I had 500 people in there with me, but the mob came and barricaded the doors and they were

pounding on the windows, which they eventually broke. It was quite the mob scene. And so, yeah, yeah, so I'm familiar with that kind of thing, although you were outnumbered a lot worse than I was, let's say. So that's another existential shock, to go go through something like that and to see just exactly how corrupt these bloody institutions have become and how eager they might be to throw you to the wolves. And so, you know, you've already been through your fair share of inverting experiences, let's say, what did this do to you?

It was interesting because at At first, naturally, this almost deters you, right? I mean, when you're met with this kind of force, it's terrifying. Again, based off of what they were yelling, how they orchestrated all this, how the officers did nothing, how the administration applauded it.

It just makes you feel as if you're doing something wrong. But after, of course, the next day, I step away from the situation and I'm thinking to myself on my flight back home eventually, I made my flight back home. And it just occurred to me, they have nothing else to diswade from my argument other than reacting that way. They don't have truth, they don't have science, they don't have any logical points, they don't have reasoning, they don't have anything that would allow them to have an argument that's substantial enough to go back and forth with mine. So that's why they react the way they do. So then it hit me. This can't be something that silences me. If they act this way, it only means you're getting closer.

You're right over the target. That being said, it's not going to deter me. It's only going to encourage me to continue. I have now increased my security. So I guess I can thank them for that. And I can thank them for, truthfully, I think this whole situation backfired on them, because again, while this shouldn't be a political issue, it's inevitable that it is. And this is made even a lot of liberals, a lot of people who typically lean left, really

open their eyes to what the left, again, I hate this is political, but it is what the left is really doing here. This is how they react when they, when simply they don't agree with someone. This is what they're willing to do. And so it's opened a lot of eyes. It's only increased my social media following. It's only increased my platform to continue sharing my message, which that's never, I never want to advance myself personally. Again, it's not about me, it's not about my social media following. It's about getting the message out to whoever will listen, whoever

wants to hear it. I'm willing to talk. What do you want? What do you want? If you could have what you wanted, let's talk about the NCAA, let's talk about the sports organizations. Like, what are your terms of peace? What do you think should be done? Of course, I want change. What I've been doing this past year is traveling state-to-state, testifying a different state legislature. I'm going back to Texas on Monday to testify, testifying in front of Congress in just a few weeks. So whether that be the state level, the federal level, upholding Title IX, that's a big ordeal right now.

Doing everything in my power to combat this movement. So I'm hopeful there, in regards to sports-specific governing bodies, it's interesting because you have many sports going many different ways. Swimming, track and field, they've taken a good approach, but what about rowing and FIFA and other sports? They've taken the total opposite. Mixed martial arts fighting.

They've taken the total opposite approach. And so while I might not have much expertise in cycling or disc golf or whatever that might look like, I still want to do everything I can to fight for those girls and women. Again, they might not have the confidence. They might not have the personal testimony I have. They might not have the security to speak up. So doing what I can for them, so ultimately change is what I want to enact. No girl should have to go through what we went through.

Regardless of what level, regardless of what age, regardless of what sport. Two, I think there needs to be a sense of accountability. Whether that be from universities, whether that be from administrations, whether that be from the government, there needs to be a sense of accountability of how this is harmful to women

because the people who are in opposition of this right now of protecting women's the people who are in opposition of this right now of protecting women's sports specifically, really women in general, but we're talking about women's sports. These people who are doing everything in their power to advocate for male trans inclusion in these spaces, they're not acknowledging how this is hurting women and therefore it's overall harmful. I believe there needs to be a sense of acknowledgement from all of those different entities that I

listen or listen to understand why this is harmful to women. So that's what I've been trying to communicate to anyone and everyone who will listen. Yep. Well, it kind of looks to me like you're doing it with a fair degree of effectiveness. And so, you know, congratulations on that front, Tom. I'm sure you've got no shortage of surreal adventures in front of you over the next while,

because, you know, this is a crazy situation that you found yourself in. And you certainly saw that at San Francisco State, you know, because this is a crazy situation that you found yourself in. You certainly saw that at San Francisco state to be mobbed like that, and then to have the administration feel sorry for the mobers and to acclaim their virtue for having the courage to stand up to such a reprehensible, powerful individual as you. It's quite the bloody charade. It's very much emblematic of what's going on in the universities. They have many sins on their conscience. That's for sure. And this is one of them. And this whole spectacle is so surreal that it's, you know, it's a form of

black comedy. And it's quite something to be in the midst of that maelstrom. But you seem to be holding your head up quite nicely. And if you're careful and you've been smart enough not to apologize or backtrack, and that's a big deal. So tell the people that you're in touch with, especially Leotomus' teammates that I'd be more than happy to talk to them if they'd like to share with me exactly what has happened. That'd be great. happy to talk to them. If they'd like to share with me exactly what has happened, especially with regards to the administrators of the athletic events and the university administrators, especially,

I'd really like to talk to them about how it was that they got finagled into taking mandatory ethical retraining programs as a way of redressing their complaints. Because that is so inexcusable that it's, well, it's a whole new level of miraculous and malevolence stupidity, right? Oh, you don't have a problem. You're actually mentally ill. And if you were just a little bit more compassionate, you wouldn't mind sharing your locker room with a demented male narcissist. Absolutely. Right, right, right. So we

could have a fun conversation about that so you can let them know. I will. I will. I love that. All right. All right. Okay. So Riley, well, thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. That was quite fascinating. And, you know, congratulations on your hard one resilience. It seems to, you seem, it seems to all that dedication seems to have paid off in a very strange way. And God only knows where that'll lead. And to everyone watching and listening on YouTube, thanks for your time and attention to the Daily Wire Plus people for facilitating this conversation.

Thank you to the film crew here in Porto Portugal. Thank you for making this so smooth and making it work. And we're going to continue to talk to Riley for another half an hour on the daily wire plus platform side of things behind the paywall. If any of you who are listening are inclined to throw a little sport in their direction, you might want to consider doing that because we are in something approximating pretty deep cultural war. And you might want to, you know, do what you can to support those people who are, well, let's say who are supporting the proposition that women shouldn't compete against giant men in their own sports just for starters.

So all right, Riley, good to meet you. Yes, you too. Meet again here right away. Okay. All right, Riley, good to meet you. Yes, you too. Meet again here right away. Okay. Hello, everyone.

I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com.