The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 540. Masculinity Saves the Weak | Tim Tebow

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

In this episode, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with athlete, philanthropist, and speaker Tim Tebow to discuss the connection between competitive drive, personal virtue, and Christian compassion. Tebow recounts the life-changing encounter that inspired his foundation — a moment in a remote Filipino village, where he met a disabled boy hidden away from the world. From that day forward, his focus shifted from MVP titles to serving the most vulnerable. Together, they explore the demonization of masculinity, the crisis facing young men today, and how athletic excellence, when rooted in higher purpose, can become a force for good. This is a conversation about strength, faith, responsibility, and redemption — and what it truly means to win at life. Timothy Richard Tebow, born August 14, 1987, in Makati, the Philippines to missionary parents Bob and Pam Tebow, is an American professional baseball player, former professional football player, 3x NY Times best-selling author, international speaker, and ESPN sports broadcaster. He played college football for the University of Florida, and in 2007 became the first player to win the Heisman Trophy as a sophomore. Tim is also a 2x BCS National Champion. In the NFL, Tim played for the Denver Broncos, the New York Jets, the New England Patriots and the Philadelphia Eagles. He is currently playing baseball as an outfielder and designated hitter with the New York Mets MLB team. This episode was filmed on March 23rd, 2025.  | Links | For Tim Tebow: On X https://x.com/timtebow?lang=en On Instagram https://www.instagram.com/timtebow/?hl=en Website https://timtebow.com/ The Tim Tebow Foundation https://compassionatehope.org/timtebowfoundation/?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAABM6BBU95BaedJ8-zfMQSVSkUtHVa&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2ZfABhDBARIsAHFTxGxiCKuzXFniMi5BZRYo20ZALjZpF92xqpW9waeBdqVhdstSTSqAlmgaAvFHEALw_wcB 

I'm very curious about how you see the relationship between the competitiveness that has characterized your athletic career and this calling to higher service. To sum it up, it's the fight for people that can't fight for themselves and competitiveness is not the problem. It's where you steer it. So you saw a lot of people who were suffering and you knew that that was wrong. I see the boy laying on the cot, I see his legs, I see they're on backwards. And so I get a little bit emotional but I hold it back and Sherwin is the name of the boy looks at me and said, I've been told my whole life that I'm not impressive. Let's go back. I don't understand how you developed your athletic ability in relation to team sports and were home schooled. How did that come about?

Can I back it up even to my birth? There was issues with the entire pregnancy. The placenta wasn't properly attached. She had amoeba dysentery. She went into a coma. The doctor who had finally helped my mom get birth, he looked at my parents and said, I don't know how your baby boy is alive

and God's got a special plan for your life. Do you know what happens when you hear that over and over and over again? You start to believe it. So what did it mean to believe that when you were little? I had the opportunity today to talk to one of the world's premier athletes, Tim Tebow, and we had a very interesting conversation. And I would say the crux of the matter is the relationship between masculinity, masculine competitiveness, masculine striving for excellence, and virtue, all things considered. Our culture is set up now in large part on the presupposition that competition and that

masculine striving for dominance and excellence is in itself a form of patriarchal oppressiveness. And that's wrong. And it's not only wrong, it's wrong in a deadly way because it demoralizes young men. And when that happens, well, then young women don't have anybody to partner with. And so that's just a complete bloody catastrophe. And Thibaut is a very interesting case

because he's an excellent athlete and in multiple different athletic domains. And he's extremely competitive and averse to failure. But at the same time, he's a very good man and he's figured out how to take that competitive striving and that desire for excellence and that hatred of losing and to transmute it into a form of high level motivation aimed at not only the good of winning, let's say in local competitions like athletic competitions, but the aim of winning at the higher order purposes of life.

And so a lot of our conversation revolved around putting masculinity in its proper place so that everything beneficial about it can flourish at the psychological relationship and social levels. And so this is a crucially important conversation and I think we got to the core of the matter. Now that was embedded in a broader framework because Tim started out as a stellar athlete and then a stellar team player, but he's expanded his endeavors into the business and philanthropic realm. And so we were able to have an abstract

discussion about the relationship between competitiveness, let's say, and virtue, but we're able to ground that in something very solid, which is his transition from athlete to businessman and philanthropist. And so, well, these are important issues to sort out. And if you want to develop your clarity of mind in relationship to such things, and if you want to become a good, what would you say, a good motivator for your own purposes and a good father to your own sons and a good leader to the people who are around you, then these are issues that you have to be straight about, and this discussion can help you figure out

why you should do that and how you could go about it. So join us for that. So your team sent me a video detailing out the operations of your foundation and I thought we might as well start by talking about that. I was struck by its breadth and so I'm very curious about, well, I'd like to know more about the foundation. I'd like to know where it's distributed, what it's doing and also how you set it up and

keep an eye on it. So tell me about the foundation, Tim Tebow Foundation. Well, I think I'd probably go back to the first time I was inspired that I really felt like I was called to start a foundation or be involved. And I wouldn't even say I even knew as a foundation, but that's when I was 15 years old and I was on a mission trip to the Philippines.

And as a country that I love very much, I was actually born there, lived the first five years of my life there. And then went back with my dad and a group of people to the Philippines. And on this trip, we got to do a lot of amazing things. But one of the islands I got to visit was a very remote island. You know, Philippines is made up of over 7,200 islands and many of them are extremely remote and I got to go to an extremely remote island and on this island, we get to share our faith

and encourage the people. But one of the things that radically impacted my life was I had the privilege of meeting a boy who was born with his feet on backwards and because he was born this way, he was treated as less than insignificant and cursed. And he was a throwaway to the people there. And my heart broke for him.

And I knew he wasn't a throwaway to God, but I just felt like God was pricking my heart saying, okay, then what are you gonna do about it? If you know he's not a throwaway to me, and you know he's not cursed, you know that he's actually fearfully and wonderfully made, you know that He's one of one, He's loved, what are you gonna do about it?

And I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what that looked like in a practical. I just knew going down that mountain that day and leaving that island that I was somehow supposed to fight for boys and girls, to fight for people that couldn't fight for themselves. And I'm only, was it maybe finishing my sophomore year of high school and I'm trying to figure that out. What does that look like?

And I get through high school and college and we were involved in different ministries and orphan care and my dad's a missionary. And so I got to grow up on the mission field and seeing a lot of that. But the first thing I did when I graduated from the University of Florida was start the foundation with the mission statement to bring faith, hope, and love to those needing a brighter day

in their darkest hour of need. When I wrote that, all I did was think about that boy, where he was in his life and what he needed to bring faith, hope and love to someone in their darkest hour of need. To sum it up, it's to fight for people that can't fight for themselves. And when we presented this and when we launched

the foundation, there were some people that wanted to be supportive, like, oh, that's a good heart, thank you, good intentions. But there were a lot of people that said, it's too broad. You won't be successful. You can't do all the things we were talking about because it started in orphan care

and then a hospital and special needs and wish granting organization. And that's kind of how it started. And so many people, I even remember at our first press conference to say, this is our heart and our starting and this is what we're calling the foundation. This is our mission statement and one of the this is what we're calling the foundation,

this is our mission statement, and one of the first questions, but don't you think it's too broad? So that was a strategy objection. I think so, and my response to it was, this is what I feel like we're called to do, and every door that God opens, that he wants us to run down,

I don't wanna say, oh no, because we wanna be successful, we're only gonna go down this. No, we wanna get to as many hurting people as possible. And one of the ways that I like to share it is I knew when I got to that island and I met that boy that I love sports. I loved the game, I loved baseball, basketball, and football. I loved competing, I love sports. I loved the game. I loved baseball, basketball, and football. I loved competing.

I loved winning. I hated losing even more. I was nth degree competitive. And I had the chance to be somewhat successful at sports and win some championships and even MVPs sometimes. And one of the things that I really felt like was pricked on my heart, and I don't even know Dr. Peterson, if I could have explained it verbally then, And one of the things that I really felt like was pricked on my heart,

I don't even know Dr. Peterson, if I could have explained it verbally then, as much as it was just in my heart. But now the way I'd explain it was, I was chasing trying to be my best and every now and then being the best. And you could say chasing an MVP of most valuable player, but God pricked my heart that day and said,

I have a more important MVP for you to chase. It's not the most valuable player, it's the most vulnerable people, because they're worth far more than some other MVP. There's a weird paradox in your story because, well, many of them, but I'm very curious about why this boy in particular. Now, you know, so what you just said, there's a bunch of paradoxical elements to it because

you're obviously very competitive. You really like winning. You said you hate losing even more. And that's, that's actually an attitude that many people think is at odds with an attitude of compassion, for example, right? Because there's, there's a huge movement in our culture to demonize competitive sports because they're oppressive and aggressive.

And you were spectacularly successful as an athlete and you describe yourself as very competitive. And yet you also were highly motivated to start this foundation. And the boy that pricked your conscience, like you said you were on your father's missionary ventures in many places and yet it was this particular boy and you could think of him in a way as exactly the opposite of you because literally his feet were on backwards and I'm curious about why you think it was

him in particular. I mean, you were in the Philippines and other places, so you saw a lot of people who were suffering. Like, why do you think it was that it was his existence per se that stood out for you? And then the other thing I'm curious about in that regard is, you know, you said that as far as the people in his village were concerned, he was a throwaway, and you knew that that was wrong. And so the first question might be, why do you think that it was obvious to the people in the village that he was a throwaway, so to speak? And why do you think that grated against you? Like, what's the difference in perspective there? So, well, that's a bunch of different questions.

So they're great questions. I would start with my opinion on probably why they believed he was cursed and less than, because that's what they had been told for a long time. That's what they had believed, that because he was born this way, he was cursed. Right. And it was a belief that he was less than.

And actually, to tell more of the story, when we got there and we gathered all the people to share with them, to share our faith, it was my opportunity to share. And I think it was probably around 1200 people total in the whole village. And I actually saw three boys leaving. And you gotta understand, this is weird because the Filipinos love Americans.

I mean, they were fighting to get as close to us as possible, they're so excited. They have visitors, many would say, tell us that we're the first visitors that they had ever seen in their entire life. And so they're so excited. And I see these three middle school age boys leaving. And it just caught my eye, like, why?

People are, I mean, they're literally as close to us as possible as we're sharing. And I finished and I just had it on my heart. I wanna go see about these three boys, why did they leave? And to make a long story short, I walked around the corner and one of the boys came, it's walking up to me and he grabs me by two of my fingers

and I try to say, hey to him, he says nothing. He just grabs me and he pulls me back to this tiny little bamboo hut. And he walks in there and then I get on my knees and I crawl in there, and I see the other two boys, and one of them's sitting there, holding a boy's hand like this, and the other one's laying on the cot,

and it looks like everything's fine, but then I see the boy laying on the cot, I see his legs, I see they're on backwards. And it was really the first time I had ever seen anything like this that close and personal. And so I get a little bit emotional, but I hold it back and I'm sitting there and I'm talking with these three boys and I'm sharing why we're there

and God's heart and love for them. And at the whole time, I just had to ask though, I don't know why, I just felt like I had to ask, why did you leave? When everybody was so excited to see the Americans, why did you leave? When everybody was so excited to see the Americans, why did you leave? And Sherwin is the name of the boy with his feet on backward and looks at me and said,

because our principal really wants to make a good impression and impress the Americans. And I've been told my whole life that I'm not impressive. And I just knew that I was here now for a reason. Right, so he had to be hidden from you. Yes. Right, because it would bring the village into disgrace. Yes. Right.

See, there's a very interesting, it's not surprising that that had such an impact on you because the attitude that you're describing that would lead that boy to be isolated, that is, you could say in a way that that's the standard human attitude towards abnormality. And I would say that was particularly true in the pre-Christian world, is that if there was, if someone was deformed or abnormal in any way, that the conclusion would be that they were cursed and that they were less than, and the evidence would be the fact of their

disability, right? And a huge part of the impact of the Christian revolution was that the last will be first, right? And that the most appropriate target of true power is service to the people who are hurt most. It's a complete redefinition of what constitutes sovereignty. That's an unbelievably revolutionary proposition, right? That the king of everything should serve those who are most in need. And that the symbol of true sovereignty was the ability to engage in that service.

And so then you had a direct encounter with someone who was the opposite of what you were celebrated for, really, right? That's a good way of thinking about it. And these boys that were with him, were they his friends? Like why? They were. And I would say Sherwin radically impacted my life,

but I also wanna mention these two boys radically impacted my life too, because they weren't told to leave. They left because they were not gonna leave Sherwin. And- So he didn't get to come to the group meeting. So he didn't get to come. And he was shunned.

He was there and they said, you need to leave so you don't disgrace everyone. And they left too with him. And so then when I'm with them, our team comes and they'd been looking for me. They found me in this bamboo hut. And they're like, Timmy, we gotta go. And I'm like, no, I'm never leaving.

They're like, yes you are, let's go. And so as I'm getting ready to walk out, Sherwin says with such hesitation, but would you carry me? And I'm thinking like, dude, of course, like, yes, like no problem. So I pick him up. When I pick him up, one of his friends grabs a hand

and the other grabs one of his feet and they hold onto him. They're so close. It made such a mark on me. And we walk out of the bamboo hut and there was some of our team and then some of the Filipinos. And when I step outside carrying him,

you could literally hear an audible gasp. Oh, and at first I'm thinking, what's, what? You know, like looking around. But then I realized they were gasping because I was carrying the cursed boy. Yeah, right, right. And that's how they were gasping because I was carrying the cursed boy. Yeah, right. And that's how they were still hearing. Even though they had also just heard

the good news of the gospel that God loves everyone, that every single one is fearfully wonderfully made and I'm carrying him through some of the crowd. And you could see some of the people like almost watched them contemplating, wait a second, is he cursed or is he loved and valuable as the Americans were telling us? And you see some don't know, but then finally, one of the elders of the village, as we're walking by,

walks up and puts her hand on his shoulder as to say, sort of, you're now welcome here. And then another one did it, another one, but still somewhat back off, like we're not still sure. And then team saying we gotta go, so we walk over to the Jeep and I set Sherwin down, I put his arms around his two friends, I get on my knees and I pray with these three boys

and I tell them I don't know when I'm gonna get to see you again, if I'm gonna get to see you again in the Philippines or if you'll get to see me in America, but I totally believe one day I'll be get to see you again, if I'm gonna get to see you again in the Philippines or if you'll get to see me in America, but I totally believe one day I'll be able to see you in heaven and Sherwin looks at me and says, kuya timi, which means brother, I can't wait to run with you in heaven. And it's a boy who's never walked a day in his life,

but somehow the first thought he had was, I can't wait to run with you in heaven. So what became of Sherwin? How did that? I don't know. I so wish we would have been able to get back to that island and that village and meet him. But I do know now that many boys and girls in the Philippines

because of our amazing team and partners, that there's a hospital that cares for boys and girls just like him, that we bring them in from all over the country. And many times they're wheeled in or carried in, but they get to walk out and they get to be loved and cared for along the way. And I'm so grateful because that happened

because of Sherwin. Right, right, right. All right, so now you also talked about the other paradoxical element here was this issue of competition. And so you said a couple of things. You said that you were very motivated to become the best football player, the MVP.

And you said you're also called to serve the most vulnerable people. So that's kind of a nice analog. But I'm very curious about how you see the relationship between the competitiveness that has characterized your athletic career and this calling to higher service. Because as I pointed out, people often believe that that competitive spirit is the antithesis of the, yeah. So.

I totally disagree. Okay, okay, so I wanna hear why. I believe wholeheartedly that competitiveness is not the problem, it's where you steer it. Now if that competitiveness is steered with the ultimate goal of just win or success or a game or championship, then you're missing the mark. And I don't even think those things are wrong.

It's not that they're wrong, but are those first place in your mind and in your heart? Are those more valuable? How do you figure that out? By failing a lot at it, I think. Okay, well, I'm very curious about that. Okay, so now you said by the time you were 15, you were already in a position psychologically

so that when you went to the Philippines, you could have the experience that you just described. So you're already reasonably awake. Now, let's go back. Like you were homeschooled, I understand. I'm reasonably awake, I love that. Well, you know, how awake can you be at 15? You know, I mean, hopefully you're more awake now

like we all are by the time we're older. So let's go back. Now, you were homeschooled. Yes, sir. Okay, so tell me about, and everybody else, about how your athletic ability developed and how that related to being homeschooled and then how that came about. And then I want to take that thread and I want to tie it to what you just described, which is... See, because you said something that's very profound.

So my son is a very competitive person, and he was an ornery little kid, and he was a lot of fun to have around because he was a really tough little kid. He basically had his mother defeated already when he was nine months old, and she's tough. And so, you know, he was very goal-directed, and he didn't like anything getting in his way,

and he had a will. And what he managed to, he was very goal-directed and he didn't like anything getting in his way and he had a will. And what he managed to do, and very young, by the time he was three, this was already pretty much in place, he managed to integrate that competitiveness into a very disciplined personality that was also very diplomatic. And then he became a very good athlete

and he became the sort of athlete that people also really wanted to have on their team. And so what he did with that competitive masculine drive was put it in the right place. You know, when God calls on Adam, this is Adam's job as the spirit, the human spirit that continues the process of creation. God calls upon Adam to name things and to subdue them, which means to put them in their

proper place with relationship to one another. And your claim was that that competitive spirit, if it is directed only towards victory, only towards victory and say self-aggrandizement, then it can become a curse. But if it's put in its right place, subordinate to something higher, then it's a benefit. And that's, that's intelligence is like that too, you know, when it's king of the castle, it's Satan himself, it's Lucifer. But when it's in the right place, it's the highest of all serving angels, you could say. So, let's go back. I'd like to know how your athletic ability developed,

especially given that you're homeschooled, and then I want to know how you figured out how to keep that in the proper place given, you know, you had so much success that it could have been, it must have even been tempting for you to become narcissistic about that. I mean, that's an easy path for people to take when their ability makes them stand out in such a spectacular way. And so, but it seems to me that even by the time you were 15, you knew that that was, there was something deeply inappropriate about that. So let's go back. Like how did, I don't understand how you, how you developed your athletic ability in

relation to just team sports and were homeschooled. How did that come about? Can I back it up even to my birth? Yeah, yeah, yeah, start at the beginning. I think that plays a lot into it. When in 1986, my dad was preaching in a remote village in the Philippines. And before he went on stage to preach,

he just started to weep for all of the babies that were being aborted around the world. And just this almost uncontrollable weeping and mourning. And my mom and dad had four kids at the time living in the Philippines. And as he was weeping, he felt God put it on his heart to have another child. And if it was a boy that God put on his heart,

his name would be Timothy, which means honoring God. And he went home and told my mom that God had put this on his heart. My mom's like, well, God didn't put it on my heart, so I don't know what you wanna do. And she started- Seems like she's really, she's really involved in the whole deal.

She started to pray about it, and not long after, God put it on her heart, and not long after that, she became pregnant, at least they thought she was pregnant. But then some of the doctors said, no, it's not a baby, it's a tumor, it's a massive fetal tissue. And then they found out, long story made short, it was a baby and they wanted her to have an abortion or it'll cost her her life and my life.

And I'm just so grateful for my mom and my dad because in the middle of this, they trusted God and loved me and gave me a chance. And there was issues with the entire pregnancy. The placenta wasn't properly attached. She had amoeba dysentery. She went into a coma, all sorts of different things in the pregnancy.

And the doctor who finally helped my mom get birth had done this for thousands and thousands of women. And he looked at my parents and said, I don't know how your baby boy is alive because the placenta is barely attached. All of these issues, it's the greatest miracle that I've ever seen and I was malnourished, but I did make up for it pretty quickly.

How old was your mom when you were born? Oh my goodness. Probably closer to 40. No, no, no, probably a little bit younger than that. But she wasn't older, I was a baby of five. So probably around 35 maybe. Okay, okay. And I think that was very impactful for me,

not just for that time as a baby, but then growing up, my parents would say to me almost every night, Timmy, we want you to know God spared you for a reason. You were a miracle baby, and God's got a special plan for your life. Do you know what happens when you hear that over and over and over again? You start to believe it.

And I should- So what, you start to believe it. So what did it mean to believe that when you were little? That you're not here by happenstance, that you're not here by accident, that you're here on purpose, for a purpose, with a purpose. Right, right. So you have a destiny. Yes, and I've also fell in love with sports

at a very early age. My whole family, insanely competitive. You would love them, they're awesome people. My parents are two of my biggest heroes. But if we all sat down and played like Monopoly or Risk, you would think we hate each other. We're so competitive. But it's just, our whole family's that way.

And when we moved back from the States, we moved right here to Jacksonville, Florida. And they were like, we gotta sign him up for sports. So they signed me up for a tee ball at Normandy baseball park. And I was so excited. I show up to the first game on the White Sox, the number 35, just like my favorite player, Frank Thomas.

And Coach Langley gathers us together before we take the field for the first inning. He says, okay guys, now it doesn't matter whether you win or lose. It's only about having fun. I gotta be honest, we've only been in America for a little bit and I'm thinking, is this what America's about?

Is this sucks? I say, you ain't gonna assure. And I say, no coach, you're wrong. It's only about winning. That's when you have fun. Right. And he doesn't know what to do with me. So this is a really important point.

So there's a developmental psychologist named Jean Piaget, who was the world's greatest developmental psychologist. And he was very, very interested in the relationship between games and socialization and social order. And so Piaget believed, proved, I think, especially in light of later research, that the games that children play are a microcosm of society.

And that the idea that children play are a microcosm of society. And that the idea that competition is wrong is predicated on a misunderstanding of the relationship between competition and cooperation. So, because if you have, imagine a typical basketball game, you have two teams and obviously the teams are competing with one another. And so then you can take one team and you could say the players are competing with one another. And so then you can take one team and you can say the players are competing with one another

to be the best player. And so the whole thing is saturated with competition and that's patriarchal and oppressive and aggressive and all those terrible things. But what people who undertake that analysis fail to understand is that while the basketball teams are competing with each other at one level, but at a higher level,

they're cooperating because they're playing by the same rules. So the overall frame is one of cooperation. We've agreed to abide by the same rules. And then within the team, the same thing applies. It's like, we're all struggling to be the best, but we're struggling as a team. And so what that means is that each of our struggles to be the best can

support the whole team and they can support each of our individual attempts to struggle to be the best. Now you related that to your family. And so the first part of the story is we have a really tight family and everyone's aiming up and they're oriented properly. So that's the cooperative frame. And then the competition frame is, well, once we've established the foundations of upwards driving cooperation, we can scrap like mad dogs and that makes us better and that makes

the game fun. And the coach that you described, he didn't understand that. He thought that fun was what you had when you weren't being competitive. Right, well, and every kid knows that's nonsense because if kids have the opportunity to select their own teammates, you know how the captain picks and then the other captain picks,

the kids will automatically pick the best out of each or the most competitive. Yeah. You're not gonna pick the worst ones. No, definitely not. They want to win. Yeah, yeah, well, and it's also a betrayal of the principles of the game to not try to win

because the question immediately arises. Every child understands this intrinsically is, well, if you're not trying to win, what the hell is the game for? That's right. Even when they say don't keep score, every kid still keeps score in their head. Yeah, don't keep score.

It's like, what that means is, don't keep score means what you're doing is irrelevant because no matter what you do, at what level, it's all the same and it's equal fun. And there's no excellence in that, right? Agreed. And I think one of the interesting things that I believe the story touches on is

then he doesn't understand me, let's the rest of the kids go to their places and he says, well, you wait right here. And he walks down the first baseline to where my dad is and he says, Mr. Tiba, will you come in here? My dad walks down and he said, Mr. Tiba, I think we have a problem with your son. And he said, oh, what's the problem?

And he said, he's overly competitive. And so- Right, so that was your first day. That's my first day. Oh, great. And so my dad comes walking around the chain link fence, you know, and I'm thinking, oh no, like I just screwed up. I'm about to get in trouble.

And I look at my dad and I see he's got a belt on and I'm like, oh no, I'm about to get a spanking on first base. Oh no, this is terrible. This is not a good day. This is not a good day. Like to me, it's a World Series Super Bowl, all makes into one.

He opens the chain link fence, he comes walking over, he's got, my dad, especially then, was a pretty stern looking, intimidating looking guy and he walks over, he leans over, he looks me in the eye and he says, Timmy, it's okay, he just doesn't understand. He doesn't get it. And I was like, yes, that's good.

Well, that's so important because I don't know, like I've interviewed a lot of people, well, in my clinical practice, but then 500 people, I guess, as part of this podcast. And one of the things I'm always curious about is, because all the people I interview have been outstanding in one way or another, and I'm very curious to see what makes them tick. And one of the things that's pretty much universal among them is that both their parents had their backs. You know, and I think if you look at

that developmentally, what you see, this is a cliche, I suppose, but it's basically right, is that what you get from your mother is, especially really early in life, is this embodied sense of your ultimate value, because a mother, especially in the first year, has to sacrifice everything to indicate to you that it's a good thing thing that something as small and useless as you actually is around, right?

So she subjugates everything to establishing that relationship and enticing you into the world. So, you know, if you take babies and you give them food and shelter and warmth, like material security, but they don't get attention and they don't get touch, they die, right? 100% but they don't get attention and they don't get touch, they die, right? 100% of them die without maternal attention. And that's even the case for complex animals like rats.

It's like maternal attention and touch, love is a primary need. So a baby's eyes literally have the natural focal distance of eye to breast. That's where they see most naturally. And so the mother sets that inclusion foundation. But then the father's goal is to have your back in situations like that.

And to say to you, particularly, particularly this, see, you see this in the story of Abraham, because God comes to Abraham as the spirit of adventure. So God comes to Abraham, he's like in his 70s and he's being dependent and infantilized and overly secure his whole life because his parents are rich so he doesn't have to lift a finger. And God says to him, you go out in the world and have your adventure and everything will come to you. You'll be a blessing to yourself, you'll establish something of permanence. You'll be, your name will become known among everyone and validly.

And you'll do that in a way that will bring abundance to everyone else. If you're adventurous, if you strive forward, and that's what your father did for you that day. You know, he said, even in the face of your coach, he said, no, your desire to put everything behind it and to become victorious, that's correct. And that's a very complicated thing to get right. You know, and you guys had just come back

to the States too, eh? Yes, but I wanna add to that because I think it makes a powerful point. So that game we play and ultimately, I mean, we have teammates that are in the outfield looking for four leaf clovers and half the kids just care about what color snow cone they get after the game and they find out I'm a decent athlete.

They didn't know, because we were overseas, but they find out I'm decent at the game and I did pretty good. But my parents also found out how easy it was for me to become extremely arrogant and proud. Because that's on a Saturday. And the first thing I want to do after the first game is tell everybody how I did. Hey, guess what?

I had this many hits, I had this many home runs, I made this many plays and I wanted to tell everybody. And so the first thing my parents did was instill a rule for me and my siblings, but specifically really for me that before we were allowed to play a sporting activity, we would have to memorize scripture verses, but specifically on humility. And I'm so grateful, even though I couldn't understand a lot of them at the time or maybe what they all meant,

and I'm still maybe don't always understand all of what they mean, but they started to instill that, not just about the balance of competition, but no, be competitive, go win. Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might. But it's not everything. And I remember one of the first verses I did to memorize,

the greatest among you will be a servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled. Whoever humbles himself will be exalted. So they were teaching me to go compete or allowing me to go compete and supporting me. But then they would say, winning at this isn't everything. And then try to use that as an example. How did you understand that as a kid?

Because that's a very paradoxical thing to hold in mind, right? It's like, well, if winning is crucial, and if I should throw everything behind it, then why aren't I the greatest thing in the universe if I manage that successfully, right? That's a very difficult thing to figure out. And you see kids, you know, my son participated

in pretty advanced hockey and soccer, because he was a pretty good athlete. And oh man, a lot of the parents, we saw the worst displays of human behavior at hockey games and soccer games in Canada that you can possibly imagine. Like the parents were just utterly demented right and a lot of them, they were just crazy like we went to. There's probably a few parents like that here in the South for baseball, basketball and

football as well. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, we went to a hockey game at one point where this character whose son was a pretty good player. So in a hockey arena, you have the glass, of course, that stops people from being brained by random pucks. And between the glass, there'd be a space about this big between the sheets of glass.

And this guy would park himself with his mouth between those spaces and do nothing the entire game except yell insults at the referee. And that was his contribution to the game. Like Tammy and I used to go sit somewhere empty to be away from the parents because they were pumping up the egos of their kids. And you could see that they were acting out

their own unlived dreams. That's a good way of thinking about it, which is not something you should do with your kids. But it does point to this underlying paradox, which is why you want to encourage your children to be the best at what they do, and that might make them socially dominant and intimidating and admirable.

And if they are all those things, then why shouldn't they be narcissistic and self-aggrandizing? Because after all, they're wonderful. And that's a really hard thing to get right. Now your parents, you also described your dad as a, so he's a missionary, but he doesn't sound to me like someone who's naive or soft. I mean, you said...

No, my dad would not be someone that was soft. My dad is one of the most courageous people I've ever met in my life. If one day I could ever get to a tenth of his courage, it would be a good day. So what made him? Any idea what made him what he is? I think his belief, his faith in Christ, and that propels him, and the confidence and the hope that it gives him. And my mom, both of them were willing to go to the mission field with four kids, have one more while they're there, go to really hard places.

My dad was put into jail multiple times in different countries when he would go and share. And I think one of the greatest things I could say about my dad is he gave the majority of his adult life to help people that could never do anything for him. And my mom was there to support and handle and love so much while he's gone. And, cause they knew they were called to do that. to support and handle and love so much while he's gone.

Cause they knew they were called to do that. And what I mean, courage, is that my dad would go into places and they would say, hey, if you share, then we want you to know we'll kill you. And he would get up and still tell people how much God loves them. And remember one time there's a guy that shows up to where my dad's preaching and he has a machete and he walks from the back to the front

and my dad just starts feeling compelled to talk about forgiveness. And by the time he gets to the front, he says, Mr. Teepa, I want to ask for your forgiveness because I was sent here to kill you. I wanted you to ask if you would forgive me. And two times in my young life overseas, I got to see my mom say to my dad, we only have a couple of dollars left.

And my dad says, it's okay, give it away. And they give it away. And they give it away. And both times we had neighbors that felt compelled, didn't know anything, but both times come over, knock on the door and say, hey, we don't know why, we just felt like we were compelled to bring you guys dinner tonight. And as my wife says, it's just a God wink moment.

And you'll be able to see that faith. Right, so your parents were willing to live on the edge. They were willing to live out that faith in a way that I've never had to, I never have. They've done it with such courage and conviction that it's why they're such heroes to me. It's so grateful. All right, so they saw that you were good

at baseball right away. And you said you were getting puffed up about that pretty quick. Very quick. And their response. It's insane how fast you become arrogant, especially as a kid. Yeah, well it's not. It's instantly.

But it's also not surprising, right? I mean, if you're good at something and you get a lot of attention from your teammates, and that's obviously the natural place that you'd go. And trying to figure out what to do about that, so you keep the competitive edge without becoming narcissistic. That's pretty tough.

And I was also a terrible teammate. I was a terrible teammate because I thought winning was just about my performance and how good I could do for the team. And I didn't realize it's also about building everyone up so it would be better as a team. Like it was the frustration. Why are, you know, why did these,

why do some of the kids care just about finding a four leaf clover? Don't understand the rules. Why do you care about a snow cone? And there's still, and they, my parents really did a good job. Well, to me, not everybody's competitive as you. Not everybody cares as much about the game as you.

But one of the things that I always, always, always share to me that doesn't mean they're any less valuable. It doesn't mean any of them are any less. They just care about it a little less. They're not less. Right. But that still leaves you with a terrible conundrum, right? Because, so let's walk through that too.

Because if you're trying to train to encourage your child to become a great athlete, let's say, or great at anything for that matter, there is two things they have to learn. And one is to develop their skills to the degree that that's possible. But the next thing is to pull the team together and have them all work in the same direction, right?

And encourage them. But then the situation you're in, you, and this is like a randomly aggregated sports team, you're going to have half the people who actually don't care that much. And some of it's because they have other interests and some of it is because- Their parents made them go play. Yeah, sure, sure. Or they just are out there, you know? Sure, or they have no discipline. Like there's real problems. So, okay, so how did you learn to,

and then your parents are saying, well, those kids are equally valuable, but then they're not focused on the game, so that leaves you with a conceptual problem. But their value doesn't come from how you do in a game, your value comes from being made in the image of God, and the worth and the value all humanity has. And so, you might be- That's a hard thing

to figure out when you're eight. That's right. You might be disappointed in how someone plays, but you can't be disappointed in who somebody is. There's a difference. Right, right. And it's always trying to keep that in mind. Something that's so easy for me as a competitor

to lose sight of is the balance between us two. Okay, so how did you bridge that gap and like, what did you have to learn? And so you said to begin with, you weren't a good teammate. No, I don't believe so. Okay, so what were you like when you weren't a good teammate? I think because it was too much about me. And I was thinking, well, how can I go win the game

versus how can I be a better teammate and believe and uplift and encourage others even when I may be frustrated because they're not paying attention. Right, right. Or they're doing something else. But if I really want to give our team the best chance to win then I need to build them up, not tear them down.

Yeah, definitely. I need to be able to encourage them. I need to try to put myself in their shoes. I need to try to understand. I need to find a way to actually pull us together versus just try a little bit harder. Yeah, right, right. Okay, and did you learn that?

I think I learned it, but I think just when you learn something doesn't mean you do it well. And so it's constantly trying to practice that. Yeah, well it's very difficult to get right. And grow and improve, and then still sometimes I feel like I would take steps back in it. And as I grew up and playing so many different sports and leagues and championships and everything

that there were, I think highs and lows that came with that. Because then I got to play on other LMS teams when I was young, and we would compete for championships, like national championships in baseball and in football, and some very competitive teams in basketball as well. And so then everybody was all in. It was win at all costs type, even from a very young age.

How old were you when you started the team sports? Five. Five, okay, okay. So you're in there very early. And how the team sports? Five. Five, okay, okay. So you're in there very early. And how many different sports? Three, baseball, basketball, football. And were you equally good at all three? When I was young, probably.

And then as I grew, probably got slightly better in football and baseball than in basketball. Okay, okay. And so, okay. And so, okay, so you're in a highly competitive environment. When do you start to emerge as a team leader rather than as an individual star? I think still at a pretty young age, but that's not because you're a good leader. It's just because as a better player or a competent player, people would look to you.

And so I think at an early age, but I still don't believe that I led in a really good way many times. But you said that skill developed across time. What had to change about how you were interacting with your teammates to make you a better team player? How did that skill develop? And did your parents, what role did your parents play

or your coaches for that matter? Or your own reflections? They played such a pivotal role in it, conversations with my mom and my dad about it, trying to learn, learn from failure, talking through it afterwards with my dad, talking through it with my mom, trying to be patient, trying to be understanding.

Right, so they're paying attention to how you're doing on the field and they're watching you and they're listening to you afterwards and you're strategizing together. Yes, and I would say one of the most special things is the whole time they're always reminding me but it's not the end of the world, things is the whole time, they're always reminding me, but it's not the end of the world.

It's not everything. And there was always that balance that to me, sometimes where I would fail or I still fail is when it becomes everything. Then it's not in its proper place. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's also a hard thing to get right though too, because you wanna win.

And so that means losing matters. But then the thing about losing. But what do you wanna win at most in life? Well, I would say one of the things you wanna win at is you wanna win at learning how to lose so that you don't stop, right? I mean, the other real advantage to competitive sports is losing, because you lose say roughly half the time. Okay. And you might say, well, why do you need the experience

of losing? Why can't everybody just win all the time? And the first answer to that is you don't win all the time in life. That's right. Like you're going to get set back a lot. And so one of the things you have to learn, maybe the most important thing possibly is how to be resilient and grateful and upward striving in the face of failure. Yeah. Right, and so. How to deal with it.

And at the most competitive, that's why the competition should be heightened too because you wanna learn how to lose gracefully and in a resilient manner, when the stakes are super high. Right, because then you're tough. And so that's a great victory. And it's one of your greatest motivators.

Those scars from losses are also some of the things that motivate you the most. When I look back on my career, especially in college, like it's hard for me. So for example, we had 12 rivalry games in my four years at Florida, we went 11 and won. I think about that one more. Define a rivalry game.

So three biggest rivalries for us is Florida versus Georgia, Florida versus Tennessee, and Florida versus another team in the state, Florida State, I hate even saying their name. Right, so these are high stakes games on a reputational level. Oh yes. And your fans have a lot at stake. Yes.

And we went 11 and won in those games. And I think about the one more than I think about the 11 combined. And because it makes a mark and I, it gave such a weight to me. I was so hurt and sad, not just for me, but for my family and for my team and for my teammates, for my teammates family because it mattered that much.

And I think that scar can either cripple you or propel you. It can cripple you by just sitting and saying, what a terrible loss or it can propel you and say, I never wanna go through this again. What I'm representing, who I get to represent, my teammates, my care for them, my coaches, my family, all of it, I never wanna go through this again. So now I'm gonna double down on my work.

I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it again because I don't wanna go through this again. So now I'm gonna double down on my work. I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it again because I don't wanna go through this again. I don't want my teammates to go through this again. I don't want my family to look at me like that again with the sadness on their eyes because they know that I'm hurting. Like all of that can propel you if you let it,

if you use it as fuel. And one of the things I like to encourage young people is you either win or you learn. In the story of Cain and Abel, so Cain makes sacrifices to God and they're rejected. And he gets angry in consequence. And he goes to God to complain about the structure of the world.

And God says to him, you've got nothing to complain about. If you did well, you'd be accepted. And you think that you're bitter because you lost, but you're bitter because you lost and you invited the spirit of resentment and bitterness to inhabit your heart. That's why you didn't learn. You didn't rectify your behavior. You didn't change in the

face of your loss. You decided you get better. Exactly. And improve. Now you did that famous speech, I presume that was in the aftermath of one of these rivalry. It wasn't a rivalry game, but it was a shocking loss. That was my junior year at the University of Florida, and we lost to Ole Miss, a team that, so much respect for them, but we just shouldn't have lost to them. But I promise you one thing, a lot of good will come out of this.

You have never seen any player in the entire country play as hard as I will play the rest of the season, and you never see someone push the rest of the team as hard as I will push everybody the rest of the season you never see a team play harder than we will the rest of this season. God bless. After the game I felt such shame and disappointment not because we lost the game Dr. Peterson but because I knew it was my fault. It was my fault as a leader.

It was my fault as a captain. It was my fault in the way I played, in the focus. What do you think you did wrong? Or what did you think you did wrong? I think that, you know, we throw around phrases like you're all in or being locked in or focused or all these things. And I think that there was a tiny bit, just a tiny bit that I thought today we could just go through the motions

a little bit. Oh yes, a little bit of contempt for your opponents. Rather than being all in. And the whole time we thought, well, we'll still win. We'll still win. And we were behind and we come from behind and we're down a touchdown, but it's like, it's okay. We're still going.

And we drive down the field, we score a touchdown and then kick, supposed to kick the extra point and tie the game. They block the extra point. But then our defense goes out there and does an unbelievable job, gets a three and out. We get the ball back and we have a chance to score and win the game.

And it's a fourth and out, we get the ball back, and we have a chance to score and win the game. And it's a fourth and one. And we call 96 Q Mickey, which is a Q power play. It's a, I carry the ball, it's downhill running. And very few times, it would be like our identity play. Very few times that I can remember. I'm sure there's some times we got stopped on it, but very few in four years, very few. If there was, I mean, if there was one play you said,

we are getting this, it's, I'm running behind some of our best offensive linemen, the Pounseys and some amazing guys, and I'm running right behind them and we're like, we get this, this is what we do. Like this is what we train for. And I get stopped and we lose. And just the disappointment, the shame, and it's not just because we lose, it's how we lost.

And knowing that I should have done something different, I could have done something different. I just wasn't as focused or willing to as I should have been. So is that a pride error? Because you said that... I think it's a pride, I think it's a lackadaisical, I think it's a taking it for granted. And after the game I'm sitting in the locker for a while, probably over an hour, and I

have to go do the press conference, talk to the media, and I just don't know what to say. I know that what I did was wrong. I just really believe that. Right, yeah, well, I watched the speech and you lay out the diagnosis which is like a form of confession, and then you describe your faults, which is the extension of the confession, and then you proclaim your conviction that you will make better sacrifices and do better in the future. Obviously that struck a chord with people, but I think the reason for that is that it

ties in with many of the things that we've discussed. One of the things you just pointed out that's crucially important is that you can take these negative emotions that are associated with loss, that could be crushing, and that are viewed by people who are anti-competitive as necessarily crushing, you can take shame and guilt and disappointment and you can, and fear even, and you can transmute those into motivational forces that can make you work harder in the future.

So, you know, when Christ is tempted by Peter, I think it's Peter, and he says to him, Get thee behind me, Satan. And Peter, I believe it's Peter, has put forward a bunch of reasons that Christ might lose his faith, for example, given the terrible obstacles that are in his path. And the reason that I think that Christ says that, it's very specific statement,

which is that you can take things that could stop you, and that would be all the negative emotions. You can take those and if you put them behind you, then they push you forward instead of being in front of you, frightening you. And we know this to some degree from animal experiments. So here's an example, It's a very basic example. So imagine you have a hungry rat and so he's down to three-quarters of his body weight. So he's pretty motivated to work for food.

Typical situation with laboratory rats. And you teach this rat how to run down a little runway to get some food. So he knows the food is there. And then you can clock how fast he'll run if you open the little gate and he's hungry and he can run. So now he's motivated by the desire to attain the goal, right, so that's kind of like a competitive motivation. So then you can clock how fast he'll run.

But then imagine that you do have the same rat in the same situation and when he's preparing to run down to get the cheese, you pipe a little bit of cat odor into the air, and rats, they hate cats. Like, from birth, it's innate, they're terrified of cats, they'll do anything to stay away from a cat. And so now the rat smells a cat and he's hungry, and he runs down that runway a hell of a lot faster. And it's because now the negative emotion that could stop him is motivating him to move ahead. And so, this is another thing. So, you want to be resilient in the face of loss,

and you have to learn that repeatedly by losing, and you have to be socialized so you can do that with grace and not lose faith. And so, but more than that, you have to learn to take that shame and guilt and so forth and turn it into resolve. And I don't think you can do that without competition and loss. And I don't think you can do it without intense competition and loss that matters. And then you can see it.

All you have to do is think this through as far as I'm concerned is that, you know, you're gonna face situations in your life outside the playing field where your competitors are getting the best at you in your business, or you're facing a terrible illness, or some bloody awful undeserved catastrophe comes your way on the family side and it takes you out.

And if you get desperate and you can't tolerate negative emotion, then you're gonna get angry and bitter and you're gonna collapse and alternatively, you could have learned to deal with defeat, like really deal with it, to be grateful for it even, to consider it an opportunity. Right, which is it?

Well, I also believe that's even scripture too. Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance and let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete lacking in nothing. So we also get to consider it joy when we go through trials, knowing that it's building, it's doing, it's working,

God's working in us and through us, that it's not just a negative, it is a growing. Like we also think about when you wanna get stronger, what do you do? You literally tear down your muscles and they come back stronger. There is also such a fear for us about discomfort. We want to be comfortable. We want to find areas of comfortable.

I want to work hard enough so we can have a retirement so that one day we can be comfortable, right? Yeah, yeah, terrible goal, by the way. There's a- Terrible goal. It really is. It just kills people. And because we seek comfort so much. Yeah, well, that's what the story of Abraham is about too, because he has comfort to begin with.

And we have to fight that. God says, go outside the zone of comfort continually and voluntarily. Because when we seek comfort, I really believe that we miss so much of other purpose and meaning and significance when we just seek comfort. And growth.

Yeah, well, there's a very deep analogy between seeking comfort and seeking unconsciousness and death. I'll give you an example of that. So in the story of Jonah, right? So God comes to Jonah and tells him that he has to speak words of redemption to his enemies in a very dangerous way, which would be kind of what your dad was doing, for example. And Jonah, being a sensible person, thinks that sounds like not a very good idea at all. And he makes tracks in the opposite direction, right?

And so he hops on a boat and heads for a city that's as far away from his enemies that he's supposed to talk to as possible. But the first thing he does on the boat is fall asleep. And there's a meaning of that, you know, and the meaning is that if you shrink away from your calling or your conscience, then really what happens is that you're seeking a form of unconsciousness,

which is like you're comfortable when you're asleep, but you're not there, right? And then you might say, well, I only wanna be awake during periods of joy, I only wanna experience happiness. And you can understand that, but then there's no developmental impetus in happiness, right? It's developmental impetus is only in challenge

and in adventure. And so, and you know, you said we seek comfort, but it's weird. We think we seek comfort, but if you give people nothing but comfort, this was Dostoevsky's great observation in notes from underground. He said, if you gave people nothing but comfort,

like Abraham, the first thing they would do is get angry and bored about their comfort. Not at all. No, and they'll break it and they'll seek false adventure because people aren't built for comfort. They're built for challenge. And then there's one more observation about that.

The oldest story we have, likely, is the dragon fight story. It's really old, thousands of years. And so the idea is a quest into the unknown to find the dragon that guards the treasure, the voluntary confrontation with the dragon and then the receipt of the treasure. And so there's a core idea there, which is that there are treasures,

but the treasures are guarded and they're guarded by something terrible. And so you could say, well, wherever there's a treasure, treasures, but the treasures are guarded and they're guarded by something terrible. And so you could say, well, wherever there's a treasure, there's going to be a dragon. But you can reverse that equally and you can say, wherever there's a dragon, there's going to be a treasure. And so now you walk through your life and some horrible dragon emerges like you have an old child, for example, or something arbitrary and terrible,

and you could be crushed by that and get bitter and resentful and no bloody wonder. But you could also think, okay, dragon, there's gotta be a treasure around here somewhere. And that gives you a completely different stance on the problem, which is the stance of a contender. It's like, oh, we have a major league challenge here, and that could force us to develop. It's like, oh, we have a major league challenge here and that could force

us to develop. We know too, you know, there's psychophysiological studies that show this. It's very, very cool. So imagine you take two groups of people, right, random assignation to groups. So there's no difference between the groups. And one group you impose a challenge on involuntarily. They have to do it. Okay, and the other group has a choice and they choose to do it. Then you measure their physiological responses and their emotions. They're completely different in the two groups.

The group that has to do it in an obligatory way, they turn into prey animals and they produce a lot of stress hormones. So now they're frozen and they have the spirit of a prey animal. But the people who do it voluntarily, well, they're now a lot more like predators. They're a lot more like it's voluntary and it's challenging.

And so the whole pattern of activation changes and this cascades all the way down to the genetic level. So if you take on a confrontation voluntarily, you turn on genes that wouldn't otherwise be turned on and they code for new proteins and build you really from the cells upward into a whole different creature. So this attitude towards challenge,

which is developed if you are confronting competition, that attitude towards challenge determines even the way you develop physically, much less spiritually, emotionally. I love that so much, because it reminds me of one thing I love to say is, we get the choice of living a have to or a get to life. Yeah, right.

Like even for sports, that you could see certain teammates, people I play with or against, their joy might be taken at times because they would feel like, man, I have to go do this. I have to get it early. And you could see burnout versus those that, man, their mentality, even though it could get hard

and disappointing and frustrating, and there's trials and tribulations, but I get to do this. There's a difference. And in this faith journey, it's not a have to, it's a get to. And it totally changes the mindset. It changes the joy in it, the difference between,

man, I have to go do this every day, or I get to go do this. I get to go do these things. Well, that's the difference between gratitude and resentment. So you could think, well, pride is a terrible sin. It's a terrible missing of the mark and it makes people arrogant and self-centered and bitter and incapable of learning.

So that's all pride. And the religious practice that's the antithesis of that is humility. And that's something like, no matter where I am and what I'm doing, I have a lot more to learn and I'm grateful for the experience to learn. And that might even be when I'm radically corrected and fail, right?

I wanna be grateful for that because it's an opportunity. And that's something you have to practice. And then with regards to gratitude, it's the same thing. It's like, I have this difficult enterprise in front of me and I can regard that as an impediment and a rebuke, or I could say, well, I'm going to look for the way in which this is a remarkable opportunity and I'm going to be grateful for that, right?

So that's a practice that makes you immune to resentment. So to be immune to pride and resentment, that's the target of much genuine religious practice so that you continue to learn and so that you don't become bitter. And then that seems to produce this transformation that we already described, which is, you know, it makes itself manifest psychologically, but it cascades all the way down to the cellular level. And that is a matter of attitude. And so you said your parents were very good at that and that they had you … Do you remember

the scripture verses that they concentrated on having you … Oh, so many. The one I just mentioned, the greatest among them, it would be a servant, whoever exalts himself would be humbled, whoever exalts himself would be humbled, whoever humbles himself would be exalted. That was one of the first verses I had to memorize, but then we started going through a lot of Proverbs that my dad really believes in Proverbs

and he would press it into us to the extent, I'm so grateful now randomly I'll be reading the Bible or I'll be with teammates or friends and we'll be looking at it. And I'll be like, I didn't memorize this. And all of a sudden, because I had to memorize it to play games, even though I didn't want to, I had to to play and I would be willing to do

whatever it took to play. And now I'll be like, wait a second, I memorized this. Like it just, you know, the other day, we were reading in Proverbs five or six, and I'm sitting there and I'm like, wait, I know so much of this, because I had to memorize it. You know, go to the end, O slugger,

observe her ways and be wise, which having no chief officer or ruler prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest. How long will you lie down, O slugger, a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding hands and rest, and your poverty will come in like a vagabond

and your need like an armed man. And you can keep going. And I don't even remember. Say that slowly. Which part of it? The whole thing. Let's see. Go to the ant, O slugger, observe her ways and be wise,

which having no chief officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest. How long will you lie down, O slugger, a little sleep, a little slumber, a little floating, and hands to rest, and your poverty will come in like a vagabondy, or need like an arm man.

A worthless person, a wicked man, is one who walks with a false mouth, and winks with his eyes, or signals with his feet, who with perversion in his heart devises evil continually, and wonder spreads strife. Therefore, his calamity will come suddenly, instantly, and there will be no healing. There are six things that the Lord hates,

yes, seven are abomination to him. Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, heart that devises wicked plans, feet that will unrapidly to evil, a false witness who others lies. Okay, so that's a very interesting. I say that it's not because I wanted to memorize that,

it's because my parents kept putting that in my head over and over and over again, so that specifically, you know, in this Proverbs, because my dad didn't want us to be lazy. Go to the Antoslogger, look for ways to be wise. And then you get to closer to the end of the chapter and you're saying, man, these are the things that the Lord hates, you know?

And so there was such a plan, my parents, in putting these thoughts in our head so that you would meditate on them, even though we didn't want to. But eventually when it's in your head and it's in your heart, God can bring it to your memory and you can start to- Yeah, so I'm curious about two things there. So first of all, that's a very telling passage because there's this subplot in the Old Testament where the Israelites, they escape their slavery and they escape the Pharaoh who's the tyrant. So now they're a free people, right? And they're trying to organize themselves.

And so, they organize themselves in a responsible hierarchy. This is the, following the suggestion of Jethro, who's Moses' father-in-law. So the Israelites are trying to figure out what they do if they're not ruled by a tyrant. And Jethro says, well, you divide yourself into groups of 10, you elect a representative, you have the 10 erect another representative, elect another representative,

all the way up to the 10,000s. And so he describes a hierarchy of responsibility as the alternative to tyranny and slavery, right? And so, but what that means is that in that hierarchy, everybody has to act responsibly, and then you don't need a king. And so this proverb passage that you just described zeroes in on that, says that

if everyone pulls their weight voluntarily, like the ant, and isn't a sluggard and isn't lazy and waiting for someone else to do it, then there's no need for a tyrant and no one's a slave. But more than that, in that responsibility is tremendous meaning and opportunity. So you get to have your cake and eat it too. You don't need a tyrant, you don't need to be a slave, but your life has meaning now because you're actually pulling a weight

That's worthy of your efforts, right? So that's beautifully put so it's a very important lesson but now you were required to memorize that and so and you said even to some degree against your Intrinsic desires at that point. Yeah, we don't wanna do that all the time. I just wanted to go play. What do you think having memorized those things did for you? Because you didn't necessarily understand what they meant to begin with.

Some of them, I think kids understand a lot more sometimes than we give them credit for. You would know this better than anyone, but I feel like there's parts of you taken. But some of it, you don't take all of it, right? Yeah, so it had some utility right away. Absolutely, absolutely. You know, if I treat someone a certain way

that is wrong or mean or unkind, you know that it's bad. I missed the mark on it. Like, you don't, like kids know the difference between right and wrong in a lot of ways that we have to sometimes feel like we teach them, but they know that. You know that bullying is wrong.

Like at a very young age, you know that. You know being mean, you know pushing someone is wrong. But then there's other things that I'd constantly work through or think about, or in meditation you would think it would one day click. But that was one of my parents' hopes is that there would be the scripture put in your head and put in your heart,

whether you wanted to or not, it was irrelevant. You were gonna memorize it if you wanted to play. How much did you memorize? We would have to memorize before most games for a long time. And sometimes we did not always like it. We did not always want to, but it really made an impact to where now I'll be reading it up at,

oh, I remember that. I remember I had to memorize that. I'm so grateful to my parents. So, so like beyond grateful, cause I'm like sometimes those different scripture will pop in my heart. I would be playing a game and let another praise you not your own mouth, a stranger and not your lips.

Oh my gosh. And there would be so much scripture that would pop in my head and my heart. Less so after wins, even more so after losses. And I could, and so many times I would also hear my mom's voice in my head, because my mom would also put scripture to tune and sing to us as we would go to sleep.

Right, right, so that's a real aid to memory. It's a aid to, my mom would always say, what's put in tune is remembered long or something. Yeah, definitely. What's put in song is remembered long. A lot of the Bible verse poetry set to music for that reason, much more memorable that way. I mean, one of the things I realized about my kids,

I didn't take them to church when they were kids. And like we had a very philosophically structured household, let's say, and they learned to aim up, but they didn't get this memory training that you just described, and they don't know the biblical stories as well as they should have. And so, there's some real advantage to that repetition that's effortful, because it provides you, it gives you these things at hand, it gives you something to focus and think about in times of trouble. It's a tool. Yeah.

It's a tool in that moment. And it's a truth in that moment that I can rely on. It's, I get to remember my worth wasn't dependent on this game. My value is not dependent on this game. Yeah. That in the highs, when everybody is saying, oh, congratulations, Tim.

Yeah. That doesn't change my worth. But in the lows, when everybody is saying, Tivo, you suck. Yeah Tim. That doesn't change my worth, but in the lows, when everybody's saying, Tebow, you suck, it also doesn't change my worth. My identity. That's right, so your eyes are set on something above the game.

Trying, trying to. Trying to, trying to, yeah. Which is very hard. I remember at the University of Florida, it started out, we were doing really well my freshman year. I was getting to play, we were being successful. And one of my favorite parts was the Gator Walk. You would drive the bus up there and you'd get out

and you'd walk and there'd be thousands of fans cheering for you. And as you'd walk through, it's awesome way to get ready for a game. Like all these people are going crazy as you walk into the stadium. But one of the things that started to happen to me was I would have all of these thoughts.

I would even say like voices, like walking in, I would hear, I'd see people wearing my jersey and I would have these thoughts of arrogance, like, man, like you are somebody now. Yeah, right. And then you'd keep walking and a mom or dad would say, hey, Timmy, just want you to know, you're our son's role model,

or you're our daughter's role model. And then I would have these other voices, these other thoughts, and really a shame of, no, not if you knew me on my worst day. I wouldn't be their role model. Not if you knew my worst words, my worst actions, my worst thoughts, I wouldn't be their role model. Not if you knew my worst words, my worst actions, my worst thoughts, I wouldn't be their role model. That's the shadow side of that arrogance.

Yes it is. You pay on both sides, right? You get self aggrandized, but you're brought low at the same time. That's right. Right, because there's a, you can see where you're not, what you're being worshiped for, and that's shameful. And how much you've missed the mark.

Yeah, yeah. And then you'd have thoughts of other teams, and anger, and pride, and then there'd always be, near the end, always the cameras then you'd have thoughts of other teams and anger and pride. And then there always be near the end, always the cameras as you'd walk into a stadium, right? And even though they're not supposed to be there and they'd ask you these macro questions. Are you ready for the day?

Are you ready for the world? Whatever, you know, these big, and you would think, man, in the next three hours, I'm gonna be viewed and evaluated by most of the country. And it'll either be way too many people praising me for something I don't deserve or a whole lot of criticism. Right, right, right. And you would have feeling like I'm not enough.

I'm not prepared for that. I don't want to handle nor do I like that. Yeah. And I started with the old iPod thing, iPad, iPod thing, back in the day. And I started putting on a song every time I'd get off the bus by a group called Casting Crowns, this song called The Voice of Truth.

And as I would get ready to walk through the Gator Walk, I would hit play on The Voice of Truth. And it would say to the extent of, The Voice of Truth tells me a different say to the extent of the voice of truth tells me a different story. The voice of truth says, do not be afraid. The voice of truth says, this is for my glory. Out of all the voices calling out to me,

I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth. Right, right. The voice of truth that I'm not defined by this game, good or bad. The voice of truth that I'm not defined by my sin, I'm not defined by my scars, I'm defined by his scars. The voice of truth says, this is just a game. You can compete.

The voice of truth says, all of these things, and I'll make a list of God's promises and the truth so that when all of these things are calling out to me and I'll fail at a lot of them, I get to go back and remember the voice of truth, that I'm not defined by this game, that I was created in love, by love and for love, that God has a purpose and a plan.

That's not just something we put on bumper stickers as a catchphrase, but that I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. And you would go over all of these truths so you could remember that this doesn't get to define me. It's not earned the right nor the ability to define me. King Jesus did that on the cross. That's what I'm defined. That's where I get to listen to the voice of truth.

And it's so hard in life because we let so many things define us. And I feel like for me, I probably do that more than most because I'm naturally a people pleaser. I am baby of five. I just, I always wanted my parents and my siblings to like me. I want people to like me.

I would always be so like my dad, he is just this courage. I would be like, it's crazy, but so many people disliked him for it. And I remember early on at Florida, I was getting criticized by a lot of people. At least it was a lot to me. And I was reading a book, a lot about Winston Churchill,

and he had a quote in there where he said, if you have enemies good, it means you stood for something at least once in your life. And I thought, what? How could it be good to have enemies? Like, that didn't make sense to me. But you see, one of the things he understood in that moment was sometimes other people

might not get it at the moment. They might not, but he cared more about doing what was right and living by his convictions and standing for what he believed was right than giving in so that he would be liked. And now you look at how people talk or the reverence or the honor they talk about Winston Churchill. And that was so convicting

and multiple things were convicting to me where it was trying to make the choice, okay, am I gonna choose? Am I gonna strive to choose my convictions or strive to choose what's right over strive to be liked? And it's still something I battle, but it's, I work on daily because I need to, because I know that's an area where I fall short.

I think we're going to draw this part of the conversation to a close. Although there's many other things I would like to talk to you about for the broad public. I think what we're going to do for everybody who's watching and listening is on the daily wire side, I would like to talk to you about the applications of what you've

learned to the building of this charitable organization and how you manage your team and what you've accomplished and what your goals are. And so we can easily flesh out a half an hour discussion with that. But I think that made a nice piece and that was a very good ending. So this is a good time to bring this to a close. And so for all of you watching and listening, give some thought to joining us on the Daily Wire side. There'll be a practical evaluation, although much of this was practical,

with regards to how you set up an organization so that you can do far more than you could do alone and how you pick people and how you evaluate them and how you encourage them and what your goals should be. Tim has put together a stellar organization that's helping people all over the world. And that's a very complicated thing to do, help people. And especially to do that without also falling

into the pit of self-aggrandizement with all that false display or all that display of false charity. And so we'll just delve into that for half an hour. Join us on the daily wire side. Thank you very much. That went by like instantly and I appreciate it. I think it was an extremely useful discussion

on the relationship between competition and attitude and resilience, which is something that everybody needs to hear in this world where competitiveness and masculinity for that matter is demonized to a degree that's almost incomprehensible, extremely demoralizing for young men and for women as well. So it's very useful to have sorted that out. Great to meet you.

Appreciate you, my friend, thank you. You bet, man. Yeah, and thanks to the film crew here in Penn, where the hell are we? Jacksonville. Jacksonville, yeah, yeah are we? Jacksonville. Jacksonville. Yeah, yeah. Jacksonville, Florida.

I much appreciate you guys helping us out, making sure we got this right. And shout out to Joy Hom to my producer who's been, you know, stellar at making sure that we can do these things and to The Daily Wire for the support so that we can bring these discussions to everyone. Thanks again, sir. Thank you, brother. Yep.