The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 554. What One Billionaire Knows About Outlasting a Dollar Collapse | Michael Saylor

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

In this exclusive Sessions interview, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Michael Saylor explore the evolving relationship between the U.S. government and Bitcoin, Donald Trump’s growing recognition of cryptocurrency as a strategic commodity, the visionary impact of Bitcoin’s founder Satoshi Nakamoto, and the looming convergence of digital currency with our everyday lives. This episode was filmed on May 30th, 2025.  | Links | For Michael Saylor: On X https://x.com/saylor Website https://www.michael.com/ Read “What is Money” https://a.co/d/c1t4izi 

On average, the currency collapses every 30 to 40 years in most political jurisdictions for all of human history. Your storehouse of value, whatever it is, is going to be deflated terribly during your lifetime. The best currency of the last hundred years is the dollar. The winning currency of the 20th century, the best currency in the world, lost 99.9% of its value. That's a winner. Okay, now you come across Bitcoin and you talked about it as if it was abstracted gold. If God's not going to set up Divine Bank and solve all your monetary problem, what's the second best idea? We don't trust a government, we don't trust a local bank, we don't trust each other, and we want the bank to last for a thousand years.

Let's go ahead and build out this Bitcoin network. My guest today, Michael Saylor, started a number of successful companies, successful by almost every standard. It wasn't sufficient to expand out the full scope of his ambition, and I would say that in the most positive sense. He became deeply interested in 2020 in Bitcoin in consequence and has been at the forefront of a revolution in finance. His company now owns 3% of the Bitcoin in circulation and the successful company that he built with blood, sweat and tears, let's say 10 years ago, has become a hyper successful company in consequence. He's been an evangelist for Bitcoin.

He's used religious symbolism and terminology to describe it. He's on fire for Bitcoin and we talked about things you really need to know today. You need to know who Michael Saylor is, where he got his ambition, how his grounding in fantasy and science fiction allied with the encouragement of his parents to produce the ambition in him that has culminated in this consequence. You need to know that Bitcoin is increasingly becoming an accepted monetary standard like gold around the world. That's their revolutionary transformations on that basis in the last year, not least because of the new Trump administration.

If you're young or if you're middle-aged or if you're old and you're trying to understand how you will store the work that will comprise much of your life, you need to listen to this podcast and hear what Michael Saylor has to say. So you discovered Bitcoin, as I understand it, in March of 2020, which was relatively recently, and it had been around for a while, and you had been doing a lot of other things, but it moved your life laterally, as I understand it, And I'm curious, you're an engineer and a software engineer, I'm curious about what it was that you discovered and realized that produced this profound change in your orientation and why you think it's justified

and why you evangelized for it as well, I guess. I discovered Bitcoin 30 years into my career. So I started a company late 1989. For 30 years, I had been running an enterprise software company, Microstrategy. We brought it public on the NASDAQ in 1998. Initially, we were focused upon one line of business, which is to sell software that allows banks

or large retailers or insurance companies to analyze all of the data in their databases and assess risk and come up with marketing campaigns or if you wanted to figure out what sells with what and do market-based analysis or any kind of risk assessment and you're a large enterprise, you would want to build a proprietary analytical system. We call that business intelligence. So that was successful. Then I was in my expansionary era in my 30s and in my 40s

and I wanted to create lots of things and so I launched 10 other businesses. I bought up all the domain names like angel.com and alarm.com and strategy.com and hope.com and I launched businesses and some of them were singles, some were doubles. I bought voice.com, I sold it for 30 million dollars, I sold the angel business for about a hundred million. The alarm.com business, we spun off, it's a multi-billion dollar publicly traded company today.

And then I launched, I don't know, half a dozen, a dozen other things. They just whiffed. They failed. What was your hit rate just out of curiosity? Can you estimate it? I would say that the thing I started with turned out to be the biggest success between 1990 and 2020. And then the next idea was a small, you know, was a double and the next one was a single and the rest sputtered out. I spent a lot of time, they were my favorite idea, great idea, I loved them, I invested a lot of money in them. It turned out the world didn't think the same way I did.

I even overcomplicated it. And so it's an important part of the story because by 2010, we had over expanded as a company and we'd launched, I wanted to be the conglomerate, like the 10 different things. And I found that the one thing worked and the other nine things didn't work and I needed to focus. So we refocused on the core business and for the next decade, I had two dual experiences. I had the experience professionally and I had an experience personally in finance.

Here's the professional experience. I worked 2,500, 3,000 hours a year with 2,000 people doing 100,000 things right. I tried everything under the sun. We had a $500 million enterprise software business and we found that we were the winner. 99 out of a hundred of our competitors or 99 other competitors had gone bankrupt

or left the industry. We were the winner and we were competing against Microsoft and Microsoft is Microsoft. And so we were the pure play, call it the David against the Goliaths. And so for the next decade, I spent huge amounts of money on development, it didn't work, I spent huge amounts of money on marketing,

it didn't work, I rebuilt every information system in the company, it didn't work, I obsessed over systems for HR, obsessed over systems for sales, for marketing. I spent huge amounts of money on digital advertising, everything you could imagine. I would fly around the world. I flew around the world for a month and I talked in every city, everywhere in order to get the message out. So I had tried every conventional thing imaginable and ten years later the company was still about a $500 million company. We were like in order to get the message out. So I had tried every conventional thing imaginable

and 10 years later the company was still about a $500 million company. We were like a very low growth and we were banging our head against a company, Microsoft, which is more, you could more easily leave the United States than you could leave the domain of Microsoft. They're just everywhere. So my professional experience is I figured I'm not

a stupid guy. I worked very hard. I had brilliant people working with me. We tried everything imaginable, but we could not dent the digital monopolies of the world. And we were this, we were this, I'll call us a zombie company. It's a publicly traded company that makes money that won't go out of business that's uninteresting because it's not growing 20% or 30% a year. It's not Google, it's not Facebook, it's not a monster. But you know, there are 10,000 companies like ours.

Most companies are like ours. So we were there. And then here's my personal experience. I got very fascinated with technology. I wrote a book called The Mobile Wave. And in The Mobile Wave back... That was 2012? I published it 2012.

I wrote it 2010, 2011. And the theme of the book is what happens when software dematerializes, when the software runs on a phone, when the computer goes from under your desk to in your hand, when it's no longer solid state or liquid state but it's vapor state and you go to sleep with the phone next to you, what kind of software would happen in the mobile world? And of course, we know all about it, right? The Instagrams, the Facebooks, the Ubers,

all of these things became possible during the mobile era. They were inconceivable when the software ran on a computer. So the theme of the book is, you know, software is going to leap from under our desk to our clothing, we'll wear it, we'll hold it, and it's going to become ubiquitous 24 7 365 and it's going to change. We're going to dematerialize 27,000 devices. 20,000 device companies died so Apple could live. We're going to crush 20,000 retailers because everybody's gonna want the Amazon. You're gonna see 20,000 newspapers crush because

Google and Facebook eats them and You know the message of the book is you know You probably ought to just buy the Amazon stock or buy the Apple stock and as an investor I Took you know a decent amount of money I took a decent amount of money, call it $25 million that I'd made over the previous 20 years as a CEO and as the founder of a company. I invested in these stocks and I 20x'd it. How do you make money in the tech world? You invest in something everybody needs, nobody can stop, and very few people understand.

Like most people would, in the year 2010, if you had said, hey, I really think that Amazon's going to work, people would have said, you're crazy, Amazon's losing money, no one's going to do this, you know, and they would have thought you're nuts. And if you had said, I remember with Apple, you say, well, Apple, I think this iPhone's a cool thing. They would say, well, no, eventually it'll go to the price of $25 a phone like Nokia. It's gonna be commoditized.

They can't hold, their margins are too high. They're gonna actually have their margins collapse like Dell or like Nokia. And of course, the conventional wisdom was Apple's not a good investment, Amazon's not a good investment, Facebook, what is this goofy thing? And of course, for the next decade, here's what happened. I work an hour a month as an investor and I get rich. Make half a billion dollars. Not working, embarrassing. All you gotta do is just buy the magnificent seven in 2010.

And the conventional wisdom of Wall Street is, if the stock doubles, you should diversify. You should sell half of it. If Apple doubles in price, go buy some IBM and some HP and some other computer company. If it doubles again, you sell some more of the portfolio and you buy the thing. And their thought was, you gotta stay diversified,

but the problem is Apple won, everybody else lost. At one point, Apple made all the money in the mobile phone business. Everybody else collectively lost money to compete with them. Amazon won. Samsung as well, all of them? Yeah, if you look at the winners in this era, right? I mean, Apple was a winner, Amazon was a winner, Google, Facebook were a winner.

Samsung is the winner in the Far East. Walmart kept up. Every other retailer, it's like there's two or three that kind of keep up. Maybe a Walmart, maybe a Target, but there's 20,000 that went out of business. Do you think that's partly a consequence of the... Is there a radically centralizing tendency of the mobile world? There is. And so it's increasingly a winner-take-all. Because when everyone's connected, the preto distribution goes out of control.

That's what it looks like to me. There's like one person occupies each niche or one company because everything's connected. There's no micro markets anymore. These all became dominant digital monopolies and they became dominant because Apple can ship a new feature to the iPhone over the weekend to a billion people

for the cost of the electricity. And before Apple, you would have to, Kodak or Polaroid or fill in the blank, would have to create a new device, it would take a year and then they would have to sell it and it would take another year and there's a variable cost to it, so when the functionality becomes software, there's a 99% gross margin and you can give it to 100 million a billion, right?

Apple could do Apple music and give it to Y.I. and people. It's where BIP ownership matters. Right. And so they, they dominated the rails and they be, and they had these, you know, I used to say Apple's going to be the most valuable company in the world because it's the most valuable company in the world because it's the first time one company could deliver a feature to a billion people overnight Now, you know, we never had that 30 years ago or 40 years ago

So there are all these natural monopolies that built and at some point, you know Microsoft dominated, you know business software and how did you see that early? I mean you the companies you listed off that was pretty good That was a pretty good hit list. And like you said, you worked yourself half to death, but all the money that you made or the majority of the money you made was actually a consequence of an hour, you said an hour a month in investment strategy. But like what, and this is germane to the Bitcoin question because one of the things

you're doing is setting up the circumstance. You saw the direction the digital world was going. You bet money on it, which is actually an indication of commitment to it. And the bets that you made paid off. And they paid off in some ways more than your hard work on the business front. You know, you got to roll back to, you know, first grade. My parents told me they'd give me a dime for every book I read and I had a comic book addiction. So one summer I read a hundred books and won some reading competition.

I started reading in first grade and that led me to a love of science fiction and fantasy, especially science fiction. And I read the big three, Heinlein, Clark, and Asimov, and my entire generation, you know, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, a lot of us were influenced by that. So yeah, I was reading 10 a week when I was, well, in grade three and four, my neighbor across the street had a wall of science fiction. And he'd let me come in once a week and take, you know, as many books as I wanted. And this, I was reading exactly the same crew that you described. I liked Ray Bradbury too. One of the, well, the famous book by Heinlein is Have Spacesuit Will Travel, and in the book, Precocious Youth builds a spaceship, gets picked up by bug-eyed monsters or by space aliens, gallivants around

the universe, saves the human race from bug-eyed monsters, comes back, and because he saved the human race through his courage and his capability he gets full tuition scholarship to MIT. Well I read that I guess by sixth grade and I just thought I was going to MIT. Oh yeah. So I you know I liked you know and then Meijer you know we used to play Dungeons and Dragons. We used to do board games. We play all these simulation games and and you and when you play these games they give you a 64 page set of rules and a set of dice, and you're creating a simulation

of a naval battle or an army battle or whatever it might be. That was just before computers got big. So I got very interested in all that. That drove me down a path where I went to MIT. I studied spaceship engineering, or astronautics really, and while I was there, you know, studying astronautical engineering, I stumbled across another course at the School of Management there called System Dynamics, and I became fascinated with that. It was the computer simulation of human behavior.

So people were building- Who were the big names in system dynamics? Jay Forrester founded the school, and the idea was build a computer simulation that shows what happens if you change the dynamics of a traffic system in a city. I mean, the classic example is I build a beltway around the city and I build a hub and spoke system and I build super highways

because I want to speed up travel time. But invariably what happens is the city increases by a factor of 10 and the travel times go back to what they were. Yeah. Because of the feedback, right? If you built the roads and then no one reacted to it, then you would be able to get around faster, but-

The world would be a much simpler place. Yeah, another classic example is, you remember the Club of Rome study, they declared that the world was gonna run out of resources within 10 years, and they declared it because all the oil reserves were for 10 more years. But if you thought about it,

you would realize that an oil company only has an incentive to identify 10 years worth of reserves and everything after that's a diminishing return. So we always have 10 years worth of reserves. And so if the time horizon issue, not a resource issue. If you see the world as a dynamic, nonlinear feedback system, if you see the world as a dynamic nonlinear feedback system and you consider the human behavior or the reaction

to what you do, then you're much more sophisticated. And you start to realize the simplistic linear models don't work. And you have to consider human behavior and economics and urban planning and business planning. And so I studied that, I did my thesis in it, I started building computer simulations, I learned from the computer scientist

in the school of management, I got very fascinated in the school, got very interested in politics, philosophy, economics. I ended up taking another degree in the history of science. And, you know, as I started- Where did you take that? MIT. It was at MIT too.

At the same time. When were you there? 1983 to 1987. And when I was there, I was also an Air Force cadet. You know, the Air Force paid for my education to go through MIT. I was very fortunate in that regard. So this is all just backstory, but I had the background as, as, you know, a

cadet and commissioned officer in the Air Force. I, I grew up on Air Force bases my entire life. My father was career non-commissioned officer. So I lived on military bases. Move a lot. Moved a lot. So I saw the world. I had the science fiction background.

I had the Dungeons and Dragons, the fantasy background. I got very interested in the history of science. That's all about paradigm shift. How do people embrace new ideas, whether it's the Copernican Revolution, or whether it's relativity and embrace new ideas, whether it's the Copernican revolution, or whether it's, you know, whether it's relativity and Einstein's ideas, or whether it's quantum physics, or whether it's, whether it's what happens when I introduce railroads or electricity or crude oil or radio,

how does it change the culture? How does it change the culture? How does it change the politics? How does it change the economics of the civilization? So, that was my academic background. And so, I always was fascinated by science and technology. I was surrounded by technologists at MIT. I got into the space, but the fantasy background was very important because in fantasy, there's this idea that if you know the name of a demon, you can summon them, you can control them, names are very

powerful. And when the internet hit, I was typing out sailor at microstrategy.com in my email and I thought, well, it'd be a lot better if I just typed out sailor at strategy.com. And I started thinking about domains, and it inspired me to go and buy up all the domains I could. So I bought Hope, you know, like, how would you like to own Hope? Like, the nice thing about owning Hope is-

That was when, what year was that? Between 94 and 98. Right, so pretty early. Pretty early on. And so I thought... How many domain names do you think you bought? I bought a bunch, but I bought about 30 of the classics. My idea was the most valuable thing

is a constructive word in the English language that has a positive connotation that everyone understands, everybody can spell. So I bought Emma, I bought Michael, Michael.com, I bought Mike.com, I bought Hope, I bought Voice, I bought Angel, I bought Alarm, I bought Speaker. How did you pick the words? I mean, you laid out some other criteria. Oh, I bought every good word that I could buy.

It was a real estate, a digital real estate gold rush. If you would sell it to me, I would buy it. I figured, what did I think? I think if a billion people learn to speak English, I'll give you an example. A billion people learn to speak English, how many of them know how to spell strategy? How many of them have a positive impression of strategy?

Now, now I name my company MicroStrategy. Let me tell you for 30 years, half our customers mispronounced it, MicroStrategy. Like when you pick a word that's not in the English language, if you teach it to third graders or sixth graders, the education system is burning the word. What does hope mean to you? Right? That's different than naming a company Celebrelix. You know, Celebrelix is not a word we can spell and it's not a word that has a meaning, but hope. Angel? Pretty strange opportunity to be able to buy words, which is essentially what happened. And it happened in the internet era. Yeah, right. Now if we go to mobile, my

fascination was this idea that if software goes from the back office to the desk to my pocket, it goes from solid state to liquid state to vapor state, it's all around me. What happens when I can talk to it? What happens when it can talk back to me? Well, you know now you have to you have to have an imagination science science fiction It's valuable because it says if you learn science and engineering you can you can figure out like what's the optimal way to get? To Mars from the US you will start to understand gravity. Well as you stand understand physics a way to get to Mars from the US. You will start to understand gravity well as you understand physics. That's very important for one part of this story, but the other part of the story is fantasy. I'm creating something in cyberspace. I'm an engineer and I can imagine throwing a baseball in orbit and if I throw it fast enough it stays in orbit and if I throw it fast enough, it stays in orbit, and if I throw it harder, it breaks Earth's gravity field

and it orbits the sun, and if I throw it harder, it breaks the sun's gravitational field and it spins off into, you know, Milky Way. Well, that's what science fiction or engineering teaches you. Fantasy teaches you I can throw the baseball and will it to be a flock of seagulls that land on my head and turn into a flock of seagulls that land on my head and turn into a pot of gold.

So those are little paradigm revolutions, that fantasy, right? Because they're frame breaking. The significance is, in the hardware world, you're subject to thermodynamics and physics and you better know it. But in cyberspace, you're not subject to thermodynamics and physics. So you could imagine, you know, I look at mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all, right? And Snow White gave you the answer, right? Because, you know, when that happens in a fairy tale, the mirror talks back to you. It comes to life, you know?

And eventually we got to, you know, Zoom and video, and pretty soon your iPad became a magic mirror, and pretty soon you could talk to, you know, a relative of yours 8,000 miles away, and that was pretty magical. But then when you put the AI behind it, and the AI generates an AI image, you're not talking to a person,

you're talking to an angel or a demon, right? And so now, if you wanna design that stuff, if you wanna design magic software. Why those words? An angel or a demon? Yeah, yeah, cause you see, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today was the use of imagery, the your use of imagery in your tweets and your marketing for Bitcoin, because

like you you have a strange mind in many ways because you're you have your engineering background and you think that way but you also have a foot in the world of fantasy and that's a that's not a that I mean, there's a lot of, well, there's lots of engineers that are sort of possessed by the world of fantasy. They live in a Star Wars ethos, right? And many of them had their philosophy shaped by the science fiction that they read

when they were in their early adolescence. And that really produced the religious and fantasy substrate of their thought. But there's not a lot of Examination of that but you thought about fantasy by all appearances a lot more in a lot more detail than that Yeah, well when I was in MIT I was surrounded by some of the most brilliant mathematicians and engineers in the world, but what distinguished me is I in the world, but what distinguished me is, is I was a pretty good engineer. Like I probably wasn't like a fields metal mathematician.

Right? I wasn't like that, but I was a good engineer, but I had a liberal arts bent. And the truth is if I could have afforded it, I would have gone to Yale and studied history as an undergraduate. I just didn't have any money and they didn't have an ROTC program

or the government wasn't paying Air Force cadets to go study history at Yale. So my love was history, that you know, history, science fiction, imagining the future, fantasy, imagining an alternative future. But do you say you think in pictures or words? Images. You think in images too? I'm a synthesis, so I generally, I'm the person that would tell you why the steam engine, you know, and the governor of a steam engine are similar to a political process that was implemented in medieval Russia.

Like I'm thinking about the mechanisms and how they function in the physical world, the political world, the economic world, the fantasy world, the magic world, the whatever world. So I would always be thinking simultaneously across that. So when I went to MIT, most of them were there to do engineering. I was actually half liberal artist, half engineer, and that was what was different about me.

And of course, when I came out of MIT, I didn't want to work for someone else doing something they told me to do. I wanted to create something. And I think that, you know, when you're in that entrepreneurial bent probably goes along at least to some degree with that proclivity to appreciate fantasy because well, entrepreneurial activity is associated with trait openness, which is the creativity dimension. And so it, it, it, it, it makes sense that you would have that entrepreneurial bent

combined because you have to imagine possibility to be an entrepreneur, right? So that's the fantastic element. You have to conjure up something that doesn't yet exist and then you have to pursue it and it has to captivate you. So you have to have the temperament for that. So you've got, do you still read fiction? I do not as much as I used to.

In my current stage in life, I spend a lot more time reading history, like cover to cover Durant's story of civilization, every volume, all 15,000 pages, or all the history of America, conceived in Liberty, Rothbard's history of America before the Revolutionary War, or history of economic thought. So a lot of history, a lot of biography,

a lot of monetary theory. And of course today, I spend my time reading legislation at all of the developments in the political economic world relevant to digital assets, digital technology, because there's a flood of it, and I'm expected to have an opinion on it. But when I can sneak away, I'll go read history. Artistic interests? Landscape architecture. Residential architecture. When I first came here, I went to Tallahassee West.

I see. Blancoid rights architecture, all architecture, everywhere in the world. Right, well that's a good blending of aesthetic and engineering as well. So, yeah. Very much. But to address two of your points, they're important. One, in fantasy, there's this idea of casting a spell, right? So if you can imagine it, you can cast it.

That's a very interesting idea. Can you make the world a better place? Can you shape it in a certain way? And the second point you brought up about metaphor, right, imagery, that was in relationship to the angels and the demons. You know, if you write a book about something, you know, write a book about Bitcoin and it's 200 pages long, I wrote the book about something. What I discovered is 1% of the people will read the book in five years, maybe 0.1%. It's very, you know, and when

they read the book, if you wanted to explain something in 200 pages or 500 pages, they might have forgotten what they read on the first 50 pages by the time they get to the end. And so a 200 page explanation isn't nearly as powerful as to say, oh, that's a demon coming out of cyberspace. Well, that's the power of poetry. Because it's like, oh, what is that? That's an actor in cyberspace with hostile intent that I should be afraid of.

And so there's a lot of over explaining in the world. And what I've discovered is in the modern world, we live in an age of abundance and there is so much infant information. I watched your podcast on YouTube. I came to know you before COVID and I was fascinated by them, but then I stumbled across chess videos and then I found you could spend your entire waking day watching chess videos and then I realized you could spend your entire life watching Magnus

Carlsen chess videos and then I realized you could probably spend an entire day watching different chess commentators covering one Magnus Carlsen game from 30 different points of view. And if you want to go down that rabbit hole, whether it's, you know, diets, the carnivore diet or chess or pocket knives or someone sailing around the world, there is literally infinite depth content. Yeah. You know, and, and, you know, then comes along Netscape and YouTube,

and all these other streaming, and then Lord help you, you fall into a TikTok hole, you know, and you're like, you start swiping, and then YouTube decided to steal it, and they have these shorts, and when you pull up the YouTube short, you know, the algorithm is thinking, what is the statistically most likely thing

to capture your attention and punch your buttons and Hit your dopamine and you find yourself going. Yeah, is that an angel or a demon that algorithm? Yeah, and you're you know, you're stuck and it's an addiction if you're not careful and and yes Well, it's optimized to grip short-term attention, you know, and that's there's something really there's something really distressing about that because And that's, there's something really distressing about that because the more immature a mind is, the more it's gripped by short-term attention. And these bloody algorithms maximize

for short-term attention and the attention fragments are getting shorter as the content gets shorter. And so we're literally training super intelligent AI systems to hook us in keeping with our hedonistic drive. So that's a demon, I would say. And that that tech you know that it's not a fair fight. It's not a fair fight. It's a 16 year old boy against the smartest you know AI in the world trying to addict the boy

to the imagery they feed right and and so yeah the smartest the smartest engineers and the smartest AI systems that are actually operating in ways that we don't even understand Because they're reinforced they learn by reinforcement, but so they understand things about us that we don't understand they understand Coming back to my communication style then what I realized is people just don't have the time like you you can for example and Life you can equivocate. You could say, well, you know, you might do this and you might do that and do your own research. And if you think blah, blah, blah,

then this might happen and read these 82 pages. Or you can say, this is digital gold, but it's gonna crush real gold by a factor of 10. Okay, so let's leap ahead into the Bitcoin issue. Cause I still wanna know, cause you set up the background now. You've described how your mind works, you described the fact that you recognize patterns

and that you see possibility. I want to hear how that translated into your discovery of Bitcoin and where that went. Okay, it's March of 2020. And in March of 2020, Michael Saylor, the CEO, is slaved for a decade, working infinitely hard, working his 2,000 employees infinitely hard to compete against Microsoft and Magnificent 7, and to put growth back into this public company called MSTR.

The company is perfectly fine company, but a're, you know, a company growing one, two, three, 4% a year is uninteresting to every professional investor in the capital markets. And we've tried everything under the sun and we cannot break free and our employees are paid in stock options and the stock's not going anywhere, right? And so I am at a dead end there, very frustrated, my wits in. And then Michael

Saylor, the individual, occasionally buys some Apple and Amazon stock and he's made a fortune. And I'm thinking, this is not good. Why is it not good though? Like, because, I mean, let, let, because I want to dig into that a little bit. You had a company that was growing moderately, let's say, it wasn't spectacularly interesting, there were stock problems, but the company is quite functional and it's doing quite well and it does its thing well. And then as an individual, you've made these like home run investments. So what is it that's dissatisfying you exactly? What's dissatisfying is to think that you peaked 10 years earlier.

You've hit a plateau and you could not go any further. I see. So it's a plateaued adventure. Right? We plateaued, we can't break free. What's the- And work isn't fixing that. What's the satisfying is to see the Elon Musk's or the Mark Zuckerberg's, you know,

of the world have extraordinary success. And you grow up in that generation and you feel like you hit the wall. They launched the Instagram, they launched the Facebook, they launched the, you know, electric car and you somehow have created this, it's a successful business, but it's now a low growth business, which is comparable to... Why do you think that ground at you? Because by many indices, you were multidimensionally successful already. Now you talked about the fact that the big league leap, so to speak, didn't occur.

But why in the world do you think that particularly disturbed you and drove you to seek other avenues of expansion? I just thought is this all there is? There's got to be more. I wanted to change the world. You know, when you, you know, you start and you think you can change the world, and you get to some point where you realize you fulfill one, two percent of the demand of a given niche of the world, which has now become a mature cash cow business, and the world's done with you. Do you have any idea where that ambition came from? Oh, must have come from my mother. But when I was, my first job was as a paperboy.

And, you know, so I'm delivering papers in Dayton, Ohio, through the bitter cold, the blizzard is 78. And at some point there's going to be a competition for the best paperboy of the Dayton daily news. And my mother enters me in the competition and she creates this book of entries. I'm the musician, I've got the book collection, I'm the gamer, I'm a this, I'm a that.

And I swear she must've thought I was God's gift. And it never occurs to me to being the number one honor paperboy in Dayton, Ohio, isn't necessarily the pinnacle of achievement? But in her eyes it was, and she entered me in the competition and I ended up number two. But I thought, you know, she thought I was the greatest person on earth.

She's like, you're gonna change the world. Freud's mother thought that about him, and he said that it had given him a tremendous advantage. You know, it's really something to have a parent who has like unblinking faith in you, especially if they've actually identified those elements of you that are useful. Look, I was a smart guy. Like I was like number one in my class normally, but being number

one in your class in a public elementary school in middle Ohio is no statistical justification for thinking someone's going to grow up and change the world. But my mother believed it, she believed in me, she imbued it in me, and for whatever, if your parents think that about you, they program you and it works. So somehow in my head, I was programmed at an early age, you know, by an inspirational figure,

to believe I could do it. Do you think that was ambition exactly, or do you think that was faith in your ability to solve problems? Because those aren't the same thing, right? I mean, you could imagine a situation like that that would produce someone who is narcissistic. That's a very different outcome than someone who believes that if they hit a problem hard

enough they can crack it and move forward. You know, if you combine the influence of my parents and my mother, especially with my father, he's a very inspirational figure as well. He's the Air Force Sergeant, you know, at 6.30 in the morning saying, hit the ground running son. Oh yeah, okay, okay, that's interesting. So that's the work ethic. He was the work ethic. Okay, okay, okay, that's interesting. So that's the work ethic element of it. He was the work ethic. Okay, okay, okay.

Straight arrow, work hard, you know, and do your job and do your duty. And my mother was, I have the smartest son in the world, he's gonna change the earth, right? And so that was the two. But, you know, once I got into reading, you know, if you read Heinlein, Heinlein's, you know, stories, his juvenile stories and his stories are, here's a teenage kid that's going to go off, go to Mars and

make peace with the Martians and change the course of human history. Right. Right. You know, and you name them, every one of his- So you found that hero mythology in your science fiction. You know, like all of his figures are inspirational figures, you know? Yeah, right. If you think about the Heinlein ethic, right?

It's like self-reliance, resourcefulness, you know? Oh, well, he was a libertarian too. Very much so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know the lefties used to think of Heinlein as a fascist. I remember that. It shocked me. I never realized when I was like 13

that the science fiction I was reading had political implications. I didn't think that, and that's It shocked me. I never realized when I was like 13 that the science fiction I was reading had political implications. I didn't think that, and that's not my takeaway. My takeaway is he says, when wherever you're living gets too crowded and there's too many bureaucratic busybodies telling you how to live and how to breathe and what to do, it's time for you to go somewhere else.

Go west, go to cyberspace, go to out, in his case, go to outer space. Right, yeah. It's, you have to, you know. Well, there are frontiers everywhere, and you found them in the digital world. And something, you know, it's always a struggle, but something good always comes of it, right, in all of his books. Right, right.

Right, and so you have the inspiration of him as kind of a figure, and then you have the inspiration of your parents in a different way, and then of course, once you start reading books, right, if you read enough, you're inspired by the lives of human beings that came before you. So I think all of that, maybe think I was put here to do something. Okay, okay, okay.

And I get to 2020 and I'm frustrated and it's a very pivotal point in my career. I'm just deciding, am I gonna sell this company? Am I gonna retire and drift quietly out of history? How old are you at this point? 55. Right, right. Okay, lots of people stop at history, right? How old are you at this point? 55. Right, right. Okay, lots of people stop at 55, right?

They decide they're retired, whatever that means. And then they're, well, looking, they're looking for purpose for the next 20 years, which is not a good fate. It's not a good fate. I've watched this many people at right around that age, you know, they decide in a way that they're old and they stop looking for further adventure. And generally that's

a catastrophe. But you, when you hit it, you thought you hadn't hit an apex. They hadn't had the apex that you wanted. And then you, you found Bitcoin in 2020. Yeah. Well, you know, I felt like I'm not done yet, but I had invented 10 things and that didn't work to invent something. And then I had tried 10 different business strategies and not bit small. Like I bought $300 million of my stock back. I was like, I'm gonna spend hundreds of millions of dollars

and this is against a company that made 75 million a year. I spent huge amounts of money to try to fix it. I literally rewired every single IT system, rebuilt everything, rethought every business process as the, you know, thinking if I just work, if I work harder and focus more. That's your Air Force dad. Yeah. Yeah, well, the thing is, the funny thing is,

so that's the contradiction between conscientiousness and openness, right? Because the conscientious types are managers and administrators, incrementalists. Their solution to a problem would be make what we're doing better. But the fantasy people, the open people think, no, no, like no matter how efficiently we go down this road, it's not the right road. There has to be something else. There has to be a radical transformation. Now we get to some very transformational things. So Thomas Kuhn, in the structure of scientific

revolution, he introduces this idea of the paradigm shift. And what he notes is that when a new paradigm comes along, it's embraced by the youth. Yeah. Or all the people who had the old paradigm. And the only reason the adults ever embrace it is a war. So you know, you know, and there's the famous phrase, science advances one funeral at a time, right? Yes, exactly. So we're waiting for the old guard to die, but the one time when it's possible for an old dog to learn new tricks, if you will, is when there's a war. So when I first saw Bitcoin, I was 2013,

I was fascinated by Apple, fascinated by Amazon, making a lot of money in my private investments. That was my tech ride. And I was working hard in my business, and I had 20 things that I thought I was gonna do to fix that business. And I looked at Bitcoin, I was like, well, this is an interesting thing, you know,

some decentralized monetary system, but right around then, the government shut down, there was an online betting site called Trade Sports, and you could go and you could bet on the outcome of anything, you could bet on the outcome of elections, you could bet on sports, you could bet on whether it's gonna rain. And it was kind of a cool idea,

the government shut it down, because a lot of times when they're, remember they shut down online gambling. I was watching this in 2013, I looked at Bitcoin and I tweeted very famously. This is back when I tweeted but no one cared. So I aired my opinion and my opinion was, Bitcoin's interesting but I think

it's gonna go the way of online gambling. Okay. Oh you think it'd be shut down. I thought it was gonna be shut down. Oh yeah. I dismissed it. Well that was a likely outcome. Yeah and in my defense, right, a lot of good arguments.

Why? And it wasn't until 2014 that the IRS designated Bitcoin as property. 2013 it was unclear what it was gonna be designated as. But in any event, I did it. I forgot about it for the next seven years. I went off and we roll into March of 2020. And in March of 2020, you know, this entire COVID thing developed, right? So first, the world shut down, and I'm not happy about it. And I don't agree with it. And the second thing that happens is we all go remote and the third thing that happens is is

all of the big tech companies the Amazons the Microsoft's their number one disadvantage in recruiting away our employees is all of our employees would have to get up move across the country take their kids out of their schools, sell their house, and their wife would probably have to get a new job, or their husband have to get a new job. And our advantage was we had a tight group, and we all had lunch together, and we met in the office, and we had a face-to-face community.

So imagine how you feel when your best engineer is basically sitting at a house in Arlington or Vienna and they can simply point their computer to a Microsoft server, change jobs, get a pay raise. All these mega companies are going to steal all my employees and if they hire away all my engineers then maybe my product's good now. I have a better product but I'm fighting against monster corporations with a better product but I'm not going to be better once they've hired my best engineers away and they're going to slurp them you know off. So the company had one more ace the thing that we had in our back pocket that kept us, that we had relied on was, we had $500 million in cash.

I have 2000 hardworking employees, I have a operating business that's a cash cow and I have 500 million in cash. And that cash, you know, in the best period, back in 2010, just before the great financial crisis or in that range, interest rates got to 5%, 5.5%. And maybe you can make 25 million a year on that. And then interest rates got hammered down, the central bankers kept printing money and they actually forced the interest rates down.

I didn't understand that they were manipulating the interest rates to make them lower during that decade. I was a techie. I would say I was very technically sophisticated and I was very good at running a business. I was in the category of work very, very hard and know my business. But what I didn't understand was money

and I didn't understand banking and I didn't realize that as hard as I was working, they were taking it out the back door through inflation. So the interest rates are maybe two and a half percent as we roll into the year. And here's what happened. COVID lockdown takes place. There's a massive panic.

All of these stocks crash because we're shutting down the world for the next two years. Of course they should crash. And the administration looks at it and the hue and cry comes from the mainstream media and from the leaders in business and from the politicians, lower the interest rates. So Jerome Powell turns around and lowers the interest rates and lowers the interest rates and pretty soon we've got

interest rates going from 250 basis points like overnight rates to zero. Well what happens to the stock market? And this is the most perverse thing imaginable. By the summer of 2020 all of the stocks have recovered. It's like oh we had a crisis but we solved it by taking the interest rate to zero. We printed money and the stocks recover. Amazon's recovered, Apple's recovered, Disney is trading higher. People are basically taking Disney up to double

and they're trading it based upon forward expectations of Disney streaming video revenue in year 2024. And I'm watching this. And this was a, what happened in 2020, I would characterize as a bifurcation of Main Street and Wall Street. What you saw was Main Street was destroyed by these policies, right? Main Street got shut down, the private manufacturer, the person that works with their hands,

the guy that shows up, the small business, the mid-size business. This is the Trump constituency, by the way. These people get destroyed, right? And they're wiped out, like, okay, it's illegal for you to open your gym. You're going to jail if you go to work. Okay?

And then Wall Street was, you got guys running $5 billion equity investment funds living in New York and the Hamptons. They had the best year of their life, Jordan. 2020 was the best year in 30 years for these investors. They're making all you had to do was beholding the stocks or playing the market. When interest rates go to zero, the P to E of any company that generates cash goes, it doubles, it triples.

The cap rates on real estate doubled. So the perverse irony is you own a building, no one's in it, the value of the building doubles in four weeks. You're owning a company, all the customers are being bankrupted, the value of the company doubles. So what happened was the government printed money, we had hyperinflation Not in consumer products not in producer products. We had hyperinflation in financial assets That hyperinflation meant that the stock market rallied Real estate rallied if you owned a portfolio of real estate or before a portfolio of stock you got rich and

portfolio of real estate or portfolio of stock you got rich and The thought that I had which is this investment manager sitting on his floaty at his house in the Hamptons Is having the best year of his life and I'm having the worst year of my life He's not working at all He's literally not working at all. He's watching television getting rich Taking high-fives and I'm watching all these people I care about wiped out He's literally not working at all. He's watching television, getting rich, taking high fives. And I'm watching all these people I care about, wiped out, destroyed, jailed, abused, bankrupted, fired, stripped of all hope.

And then I have this $500 million asset and the interest rates go to zero. And Jerome Powell goes on television and he gives a speech and these are his words. We've taken interest rates go to zero and Jerome Powell goes on television and he gives a speech and these are his words. We've taken interest rates to zero, I'm not even thinking about thinking about raising interest rates to the year 2024. But my observation was I had an asset it's now non-performing. You know, my finance is non-performing, my equity is dead in the water, my chances of turning this around are zero because after doing a hundred things for a decade,

they're zero. My human capital is about to be stripped away. And so I have a choice between a fast death or a slow death. And so it was time to make a decision to choose a side. And I felt like if I give the money back to the shareholders, conventional wisdom is give the capital back to the shareholders because you idiot, you're getting 0% interest and us brilliant investors are getting, S&P's up 25% this year. Okay so I could just give the money away well I took 30 years to accumulate the money why should I give up 30 years of my life? 2,000 people did a

million things right and I'm just gonna give it up and slink into my hole and disappear from history I thought that's not very appealing. Well, I can keep the money at 0% interest, but I'm boiling, right? The environment is boiling my employees off and it's just a slow death, not a fast death, but it's a slow certain death or I can fight, right? And so paradigm shift war, it wasn't the war on COVID, it was the war on currency combined with the war on COVID. And in that circumstance,

I'm standing there and I'm thinking, I wasn't put on the earth to lose like this, like this is not how I'm going to go out. And so I started looking for a solution and I said, well it's pretty obvious operating companies are discriminated against, people that do things are being discriminated against. I wanna be one of those guys that owns things.

But I don't wanna own sovereign debt. If I'm owning the T-bill, the government's just told me T-bills are worthless, I better go find something else to own. So I started thinking, well, what can I buy? Am I going to buy art? Am I going to buy a building? How much time were you spending thinking about this at this point? Like is this like 16 hours a day? So I was there and I thought, well, what can you buy? It's like, can I buy real estate? And the answer is, well, real estate just doubled in value over a few weeks because Jerome jacked the price of interest to zero. So that's not good. Can I buy a portfolio of stocks? They just went to an all-time high because we jacked the interest to

zero. That's no good. Can I buy a portfolio of collectible art? Oh yeah, good luck with, like, how do I find $500 million of Picasso's and Monet's attractively priced? That's not and and by the way, we're now meet we're struggling with you're looking at a guy after 30 years in business and an engineering education Reasonably educated but not a classically trained economist not an Austrian economist I am struggle with struggling with the time honored question, what is money? I need a liquid fungible asset,

which will store my economic energy for an indefinite period of time. And so what is money? I'm looking for money. And eventually I get to gold, and I'm thinking, should I buy $500 million of gold? And you know, my attorney, he looks at me and goes, you know, Mike, I remember when gold was $800 an ounce

back in the 70s or the 80s and then it went nowhere for 20 years and you should be careful about that. And it might not, it's kind of dead money. And then I, so I'm sitting at this table and I'm watching the world burn While all the Wall Street guys get rich and the talking heads on CNBC Say what they're saying and I'm looking out at Miami Beach I'm looking at Collins Avenue and every car is not there's no cars on the road except for an Amazon truck

Which just makes me angry for an Amazon truck, which just makes me angry. One Amazon truck going by. And I've got 82 birds in my backyard and they're hunting for worms because all the restaurants in Miami Beach shut down. So they're whatever, whoever is feeding them is not feeding them. So I'm watching us strip the world back to the stone age, right? A devolution. And I'm, I'm staring over my poll, I look at Eric, and I say, Eric, tell me about that Bitcoin thing again. And Eric was a crypto entrepreneur, and he had been investing in digital assets and crypto. And I had dismissed him two years earlier in 2018. I was like, oh, that's probably just a scam coin that's gonna collapse. But you know everybody finds this when you you know if I tell you you got six months to live you would go looking for a cure and if I told you every asset that you hold in Canada is going to be

seized from you within six months that could happen you would think about how you're going to get your money out of Canada. Yeah, we already thought about that. You know, and like, and the point is, you didn't think about it for the 20 years of your career when it just wasn't the priority. And then when you're faced with a crisis, a challenge, you start thinking.

So I said, Eric, tell me about that Bitcoin thing again. And he started describing it And I started thinking how can I get more information on that? And he said well you can go and watch this podcast and you can learn anything on YouTube Mm-hmm you can learn it if you want to learn all right. I learned a lot from you on YouTube I learned a lot a lot about diets and ketogenic diets and the carnivore diet, and I learned a lot about food politics, and I learned a lot about food politics and I learned a lot about psychology and also I started studying up on crypto and I and I started speed watching and intensely watching and I went and I saw

the work of Andreas Antonopoulos and I saw the podcast of the early crypto developers and I started looking for the books and I read the Bitcoin standard and I I got quote-unquote dragged down the rabbit hole and and I came to the opinion that that the solution was was a non-sovereign store about value bearer instrument of which gold had been the best of those. But then I applied my engineering mind and I thought the way Heinlein would have thought about it.

And I said, okay, over a long enough timeline, what's the mortality rate? Okay, short, you know, people that think short time, think about weeks or months or years. I thought, well, let's try a hundred years. I looked over a hundred years and I realized that at a 2% inflation rate, and that's the rate at which we mine more gold, at a 2% inflation rate, that means the half life of gold is about 36 years, which means that the value of the gold you hold is cut in half three

times over a hundred years, which means that if you started the gold you hold is cut in half three times over a hundred years. Which means that if you started with a hundred, you ended up with twelve and a half percent of the money you started with over a hundred years. Explain that in a little more detail. How does that happen with gold? Say you owned a hundred percent of the supply of gold this year. The gold miners produce two percent more gold every year at Compound, which means it takes 36 years before they've doubled the supply of gold. Got it, got it. You own half the supply of gold in 30 years.

You own a quarter of the supply of gold in 70 years. So the relative scarcity decreases as you hold it. It's inflating. Okay, okay, got it. And so gold, although it's quote unquote sound money, and the Austrian economy school of thought it was the best money, it's not perfect money. The reason that you had stable prices throughout the gold era, you know, the gold standard age, is gold was inflating about 2% a year,

and the economy is growing 2% a year. And so if the output of goods and services grow at the rate of the money supply, the price is constant. Okay? Okay? If the money supply is fixed and the economy grew 2% a year, prices will fall 2% every year.

Right? Right? Then that, when, and by the way, in technology, when you look at technical products where the company grows productivity faster than 2%, in a gold world, the price would fall very fast. Okay, so what's going on is, there's a race between productivity and money supply, and if I can drive the price of the product down 20% a year,

I can inflate the amount of money 10% a year, and the price of that thing will fall 10%. But if I didn't inflate the price of money, it would fall 20%, you see? So I looked at gold, I said, I need something like gold, but the problem with gold is it's a conventional asset, it had kind of recovered a bit, and I thought, it's not perfect,

it's the best idea in the 19th century, and it's not quite working in the 20th century. And so I started thinking, what if someone designed digital gold? Now we go back to the engineer saying, can you perfect gold? And the engineering idea, how do you fix gold and make it perfect?

Well, you make it impossible to mine anymore. And then we get into the fantasy thing. What if, you know, what if God came down, and there's a bit of theology here, if you, allow me. If God came down and wanted to fix gold, it's impossible to make any more gold, right? How can you make it better? It'd be really great if it was weightless. How do you make it better? I'd be really great if it was weightless.

How do you make it better? I'm gonna cast a spell and allow you to teleport the gold anywhere on earth. If God said, you know, I'm gonna implement a system of 21 million gold coins, but we're gonna call them God coins, and I'm gonna keep them in a bank in heaven, and I'm gonna let you transfer any amount. I'm gonna let you subdivide it by 100 million

and we'll call them Satoshis. And I will let you transfer peer to peer and pay anybody any time instantly at the speed of light and I will keep track of the ledger of who owns what. In an incorruptible way. I will never cheat you and I will do it forever for free. You know, if God offered you that kind of divine bank and you were sitting in Argentina when the currency was collapsing to zero, the Argentine peso went from a dollar to the peso to a thousand pesos to the dollar over 20 years.

And it did it five times over the century. Right, right, right. Or if you saw it happen in Russia, where their currency collapsed. The currency collapsed in Brazil, not 25 years ago. Currency collapsed in Germany a few times. If you read the history of civilization, read Durant. Durant's talking about currencies collapsing in Russia in 16th century

Yeah, you know the Roman emperors were flipping the coin. It's a substantial lifetime risk Pretty much on average the currency collapses every 30 to 40 years in most political jurisdictions for all of human history And if you get a currency to last for by the way of human history. And if you get a currency to last for, by the way, the best currency of the last 100 years is the dollar. The US won every war of the 20th century.

My house in Miami Beach traded for $100,000 in 1930. It would trade for $100 million 100 years later. 99.9% collapse in the value of the dollar. The winning currency of the 20th century, the best currency in the world lost 99.9% of its value. That's a winner. If you do the math fast, just for the viewers, it works out to 7% a year.

Inflation over. In the best currency. And how do you calculate the inflation? The inflation calculations have always been to me because. The easy thing to do is take the number divided into 72, and that means that you're halving or you're doubling every 10 years.

Seven into 70 is a 10 year half life. So the issue is what's the half life of your money? Against what basket of goods? Okay, and that is the trick, right? That's for sure is what's the half-life of your money? Against what basket of goods? Okay, and that is the trick. That's for sure, that's the trick. Because what's the yardstick? The government wants to calculate inflation by constructing a market basket of consumer goods.

And then the trick is they just keep changing what's in the basket. So they call it a hedonic adjustment. Yeah, exactly. Well, I create a basket of, by the way, I create a basket of goods that are not likely to go up in price as I print money and I put that into the basket.

You know, it's like, if I said- So it's inflation of the inflation standard. Organic grass-fed, this pops up in organic diet or carnivore diet or diet in general where people note that if everybody ate meat and if it was all organic, then we probably couldn't support the eight billion people on the planet.

We could support 800 million people. So it behooves us to convince everybody that they should eat biscuit. And that's what the Egyptians figured out 5,000 years ago. That, you know, if you grow grain and you feed the population biscuit, you can raise an army and it's very cheap. How does the army travel? They travel on biscuit. So, you know, is this good for 40, 50 years? No, your teeth are going to fall out, it's awful for your health,

you're gonna die 20 years early. But it doesn't matter when the people fighting the war are between the ages 15 and 30. Like you won't kill yourself with an awful diet fast before the age 25. By the way, in a war, you're gonna die from influenza, you're gonna die from influenza, right? You're gonna die from the pathogens first, if the bullet doesn't get you, second,

you're not gonna die from malnutrition except that I can't give you a cow. So I can only give you the biscuit. So at the end of the day, the government's view toward inflation is it's in their best interest to construct, to construct a single number. There's the old phrase, you can't tell people what to think, but you can tell them what to think about. Right? And so I want you to think that inflation is CPI,

it's not. I want you to think that 2% is acceptable and you estimated at 7 now This is where you got to come back to me an engineer when you look out at a bay and the wind is blowing on the bay and you see all the white caps and the water is Moving and I ask you in one sentence to describe the motion of the bay you there a semantic representation is imperfect way to describe fluid flow. You know, watch, you know, water

and it's spinning like this going down a drain. How do you describe fluid flow? Well, the answer is every component of the water has a different velocity, it's a different vector, right? They're all moving like, and it's dynamic, and now blow some bubbles in it, describe that with words. Give me the number. There's no number.

That's a field, it's a vector, right? So my background at MIT, I studied thermodynamics. I studied very hard math. I mean, the math you use to design a jet engine, the math you use to design a jet engine, the math you use to design you know anything that goes supersonic through the air, the math is complicated you know you need vector calculus, you need you need nonlinear dynamic systems of equations, you need field theory. What's the gravitational field of the earth? Tell me that in like a number. Well, you know, like it's it's different

everywhere. It's changing, but no, but but that's too complicated, right? For the rank and file. So what is inflation? Inflation is a vector. There's a different inflation rate for every single thing in this room, and it would be a different rate for this room if I put this room in Toronto, right? And it's changing every week, it's changing every minute. So the inflation rate of, there's a hundred thousand things you might want and the rate of inflation on all of those hundred thousand things is changing minute by minute and it's different in Hong Kong than it is in China.

It's like, okay, there's a war going on, guess what? We shut down the economy, there's a war, World War I, World War II, there's no inflation, why? Because it's illegal to buy anything, okay? There was no inflation in 2020 when we printed money, except what are you allowed to buy when you're under home arrest? You can buy stocks. The inflation was in the stocks.

The inflation was in Amazon stock in March of 2020. It wasn't in restaurant bills because it was illegal to go to the restaurant. It wasn't in the cruise lines, it wasn't in the airlines. And so I want you to think, oh, this 2% inflation is okay. So let me abstract back a bit here. So just, okay, so we laid the groundwork for why this Bitcoin revelation hit you hard, and then

you laid out an economic argument, which was that your assessment of the situation was that the standard story with regards to the reliability of currency and the inflation rate is radically off-kilter. The most successful currency hasn't been particularly successful at all, and the inflation rate that's reasonably estimated is much higher than the official inflation rate, which means that your storehouse of value, whatever it is, is going to be deflated terribly during your lifetime. Okay, now you come across Bitcoin and you talked about it as if it was, you know, this abstracted gold with the properties that you already described. So it has the rarity of gold.

Let me ask you a couple of questions about that because some people have actually asked me about this. Is quantum computation going to break the Bitcoin passwords? Like I can imagine, are there two things that would take it out? What about a solar flare that wipes out the electronics? Does that wipe out Bitcoin? What about quantum computation and cracking the passwords? Yeah, so I mean the short answer is no, and this is the most anti-fragile, indestructible thing in the world.

Because of its distribution. and destructible thing in the world. The longer answer is Bitcoin is an ideology that is manifested as a protocol that has materialized as a network across which an asset runs. So, start you... Is the most real aspect of ideology? Let me say it's like, is quantum computing, if it hacks your email account,

going to destroy the English language? See, is quantum computing going to actually break base 10 math? Base 10 math is a protocol. If you have a computer program and it becomes insecure, you have to upgrade the program. But the reason that we use numbers one through nine or zero through nine is because over the course of about 900 years, Western civilization realized

that we could actually calculate things more efficiently with that protocol, but it's not the only protocol, Jordan. There's base two, there's base 16, right? Why do we have 12 months in a year? Why do we have 360 degrees? Because the Babylonians had other systems of math. We have a system of math. There's other languages, why do we use English?

Well, we all decided, the scientists, the economists, Western civilization, there's a lot of reasons why. We could trace it to geography of England and the English Channel and a bunch of stuff. We don't have time for that. It's a protocol. Bitcoin, it's a protocol. What kind of protocol?

It's a monetary protocol. Why? What's it informed by? An ideology, what is the ideology? Sovereignty, truth, thermodynamic soundness. Why thermodynamic soundness? Because one plus one has to equal two, and if one plus one equals three some days, or one and a half other days, you can't solve any problem. In engineering, in aeronautical engineering,

there's a phrase called adiabatic, an adiabatic system. An adiabatic system means a closed system. And so whenever you're building anything, the problem always starts with, assume an adiabatic system. And so whenever you're building anything, the problem I start with, assume an adiabatic system. If I introduce this heat source, if I fly through, what they're saying is, assuming it's a closed energy system, there's no external factor, right? Assuming an adiabatic system,

how long will our podcast go? About two and a half hours. If Godzilla steps on your studio in the next 30 seconds, the podcast will go shorter because of new energy. So when Godzilla shows up to the playground, all bets are off. Right, right, right. So if I have a bathtub

or I have a swimming pool with a leak in it, you can't jump into the swimming pool without risking breaking your neck, right? If I have a leak in a fuselage of an airplane, we can't fly, explosive decompression. You can, if you're an engineer and you're engineering airplanes or internal combustion engines or space ships

You have to do the engineering properly and that includes make it a closed system or a thermodynamically sound system What is not there's leakage, right? There's either a friction cost or there's a leakage cost and you have to account for the leakage and a replenishment or there's a leakage cost and you have to account for the leakage and a replenishment if you want the machine to work. The machine will not work if you don't actually solve the problem. So when we come to this idea of the ideology of Bitcoin, Bitcoin is based upon engineering engineering principles, mathematical soundness, consistency, integrity, truth, right?

And those are all the principles of the- And that's the interruptibility of the ledger. Those are the principles of libertarians and Austrian economist, right? And those are also, that is someone that believes that we should be governed by natural law, right? So we go back to John Locke and we go back to natural rights and natural law, right?

Nature governs, right? Whether nature, nature gives you gravity. If you tip the glass there, it's falling to the floor. You don't get to break the rule. That is just the rule. You have to comport yourself accordingly, knowing that there's a gravitational field in this room right now.

You can't wish it away, right? A lawyer would like to wish it, you'd like to, if the politicians could pass a law, they'd pass a law suspending gravity rights, you know, for the time being in certain places, but that you can't, as Elon Musk says, you don't get to break the laws of physics. Right? So, so Bitcoin starts with this ideology of the engineers, the scientists, the mathematicians,

right? And we create a protocol. The protocol is what if a bunch of smart people in the world, what if they wanted to keep their money? What if, or in this case, I gave you the example of the divine bank that God gave you, except if God's not going to set up divine bank and solve all your monetary problem, what's the second best idea? The second best idea would be a smart engineer takes advantage of semiconductors, the internet and cryptography, and you create a system where 21 million bitcoins circulate, subdividable

by 100 million Satoshis each. That system is protected by public and private key cryptography and should you actually have possession of the private key you have control over your coins. That means that you've created a bank in cyberspace. Now imagine a hundred rich families. They live all over the world. They all get together one day and they say, well, you know, God won't solve our problems for us. So we got to solve our problems ourselves. Let's go ahead and build out this Bitcoin network.

And this is a bank and we're all gonna be able to deposit our money in this bank. Why? We don't trust the government. We don't trust a local bank. We don't trust each other. We don't, you know, and we want the bank to last for a thousand years. Okay. Who's going to run the software? Well, the answer is everybody's going to run the software because nobody's, I trust you, you trust me, but your idiot great-grandson, I might not trust.

Or maybe my idiot great-grandson might not get along with your idiot great-grandson. So, you know, and this is where history of science comes in. You know how we study longitude? Or longitude was the breakthrough that gave the British control of the seas. And the Longitude Prize was instantiated by the parliament. They offered 10,000 pounds so whoever could figure out how to calculate longitude on the ocean.

Every physics professor at Cambridge and Oxford tried it. They all failed. Every mathematician failed. They could not figure it out. A clockmaker by the name of John Harrison makes clocks. He solved the problem. Just like the Wright brothers figure out how to fly without their aeronautical engineering degree,

the bicycle makers figure out how to fly. The clockmaker figured out how to solve the problem. He created a perfect clock. He gave you two clocks. And when you get in the British ship, you sail past Greenwich, which is where the Royal Observatory is. You set your first clock to Royal Observatory time,

Greenwich Mean Time. That's where we got universal time. The second clock is set to local time. The ship sails to the West Indies. You look up, you figure out what high noon is. You compare the second clock to the first clock, you subtract two hours, you multiply by 15 degrees, you've got your longitude on the ocean. Now, what's the breakthrough? No one could make a perfect clock. How do I create a perfect clock? Because the metal

in the clock expands and contracts. John Harrison created a perfect machine from imperfect materials. What he realized is, yes, the metal does expand and contract. We can't stop it from expanding and contracting with humidity and with temperature. What we can do is take two identical pieces of metal and put them in tension with each other. So this one

is contracting the same amount that one is contracting. They actually compensate, neutralize each other, and you end up with a perfect machine. That is brilliant engineering, not through math, not through science, but through practical engineering. Harrison creates a perfect clock. The clock inadvertently gives us longitude. Longitude gives the British Navy command of the seas, and we're speaking English right now. Right, got it. Satoshi has to create a perfect monetary network,

and you got to create it with imperfect components. The imperfect components are the people The governments the actors the computers they're going to fail what happens if the power goes out What happens if that gets hacked? The answer is I create a machine that's running the protocol This one's running the protocol this one's running the protocol. They're all running at the same time They're all hashing in order in order to guess the answer to that's required to build the next block One out of a million of these things will win

The entire thing is a fault tolerant shared nothing, you know mission critical nuclear hardened system, because what is it? It's a virus, right? It's an internet virus, a monetary virus, an ideological virus, and everyone that chooses to run the node is feeding the network, you know,

participating in the network. All of the miners are defending the network. People will, but once you understand it like that, then you realize that what's going on with Bitcoin is a bunch of people with the same ideology, we just all like to keep our money, Running a protocol, have instantiated that protocol in software that runs on mobile phones, that runs on computers.

We should also say, you know, it's not exactly that you wanna keep your money. It's you wanna keep the fruits of your labor and you wanna keep your reputation. And you wanna do that over the longest amount of time possible with the least amount of parasitism and corruption Manageable and so, you know because when you say you want to keep your money

It's got that kind of evil capitalist ring to it But you know if you spent your entire lifetime building up a storehouse of value and you did that in a way that also brought Prosperity at other people it's only natural justice of the sort that keeps hardworking people working in everything abundant in order to not allow people like that to be parasitized and taken out. If you would indulge me, this is where we should probably veer off into libertarian politics and philosophy. Let's wait. Let's do that on the daily wire side because we should bring this part to a close. Well, you had a good landing there with regards to, you know, your summary of how Bitcoin worked and all the things that we talked to culminated into that. And on the daily wire side, we'll talk about the relevance of this for young

people. We'll talk about what you think is going to transpire in the next five to 10 years on the Bitcoin side and we'll flesh out the libertarian discussion. But that's an excellent place to stop. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much for the thorough investigation and explanation. And so we're gonna continue on this road on the daily wire side for all of you watching and listening. And so you might feel inclined to attend to that

so that we can delve into this. I wanna hear Michael's thoughts on, well, what's gonna happen in the next five years and what you should do if you're young, concretely speaking. And so join us there. Thank you everyone here today in Scottsdale Film Crew. And thank you very much for showing up and talking.

It's been a real pleasure and very informative. That's for sure. So thanks everybody. We'll see you on the daily wire side. ["Dio e Zingaro"]