The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 564. The Moral of the Story with JBP: Hansel & Gretel

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

In this narrative analysis, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson breaks down the Grimm Brothers’ “Hansel and Gretel,” revealing the psychological and symbolic dimensions hidden within the classic tale. From the selfishness of weak fathers and malevolent stepmothers to the false promises of hyper-solicitous care, Peterson explores how the abandonment of children into the unknown mirrors moral failure at home—and how faith, courage, and sibling love can redeem it. With echoes of biblical stories and and all too modern warning about overprotective parenting, this fairy tale becomes a rich allegory for navigating betrayal, scarcity, and emerging maturity. This episode was filmed on July 5th, 2025.

Hello everybody. So in the past I have told or read stories for children and offered an analysis and I recently released a new episode of that sort discussing the Grimm's brothers Snow White and people seem pretty happy with that. I'll read you a couple of comments. Can we have a whole psychoanalytic series on fairy tales? So many hidden lessons. It also reminds me of the Peterson lectures I listened to on The Lion King, Peter Pan, and Pinocchio.

That was some years ago. Yes, more of these. Please do more of these. All the best from the UK. Story time with Dr. Peterson. Too awesome. Well, the episode proved quite popular and people's responses were very positive. And I like doing narrative analysis. And so we're going to try another one today. Hansel and Gretel.

And you all know that story. so we'll see how it goes. Hard by a great forest dwelt a poor woodcutter with his wife and two children. The boy was called Hansel and the girl Gretel. He had little to bite and to break, and once when great scarcity fell on the land, he could no longer procure daily bread. Now when he thought this over by night in his bed and tossed about in his anxiety, he groaned and said to his wife more about her in a moment. What is to become of us? How are we to feed our poor children when we no longer have anything even for ourselves? Now, you see, there's something troublesome right there already, because his priorities

are backwards. He says, when we no longer have anything even for ourselves, well, a father with his priorities right would be more concerned about his children's hunger than his own. And so, the teller of the tale, the writer, the author of the tale, sets up the situation for us with that foolishness. This woodcutter is selfish and, as we'll see, also weak, and that places his children at great risk. How are we to feed our poor children when we no longer have anything, even for ourselves? Prioritizing himself first. I'll tell you what husband answered the woman, early tomorrow morning,

we will take the children out into the forest to where it is the thickest. There we will light a fire for them, and give each of them one piece of bread more, and then we'll go to our work and leave them alone. They will not find their way home again, and we shall be rid of them." "'No, wife,' said the man, "'I will not do that. How can I bear to leave my children alone in the forest? The wild animals would soon come and tear them to pieces.' "'Oh, thou fool! said she.

Then we must all ford, I have hunger. Thou mayest as well plane the planks for our coffins." And she left him no peace until he consented. "'But I feel very sorry for the poor children all the same,' said the man." Well there's quite a tale of domestic catastrophe in that opening paragraph, because his wife, who turns out to be the children's stepmother, as we see in the next paragraph, is quite the horrid piece of work and he doesn't stand up to her. He proclaims that he feels sorry for his children, but he doesn't throw his wife out of the house, which would be approximately the appropriate move under such circumstances,

when her proclivity is to not only ensure that she's fed first, which makes her a very bad mother, but also to trick the children, take them to where it's maximally frightening, the darkest part of the forest, leave them there, and then harass her weak husband to death until he agrees. Now another thing we might give some thought to with this opening is why the poverty exists. And we could feel sorry for the poor woodcutter and his poor new wife, or we could note very carefully that their poverty might have something to do with their misplaced priorities and their selfishness. So let me give you a counter example. In the story of Elijah

in the Old Testament, Elijah is the first prophet who identifies the voice of conscience with the divine. It's a major psychological transformation, right? Now Elijah is the enemy of the nature worshippers who are led by an evil queen named Jezebel, who's an arrogant and narcissistic foreign malign foreign influence on the Israelite nation and she in her arrogance and haughtiness brings the nation to ruin and she persecutes Elijah for his forthrightness and his willingness to stand for the one true God against the nature worshipers which is something to think about in these most modern of times.

In any case, Elijah is running away from Jezebel and her forces after having defeated the worshipers of nature, and God sends him to a poor widow, and who, if I remember correctly, he meets by a well, and she offers to share her remaining food with him. She just has enough flour for one meal for her and her son, and enough flour and oil for one meal for her and her son, but she offers to share it with this stranger, this strange prophet. And then it turns out that if she hits the barrel of flour, more flour appears and the oil magically refills so that the prophet and the woman, the widow, the poor widow and

her son, subsist on virtually nothing for a very long period of time. And you might ask, well, what does that mean? Apart from the, let's say, childish magical element of it, it means that those who are generous in their attitude, and that might be particularly true of food because human beings share food are Most likely to be provisioned appropriately over the longest period of time. So if you're generous and hospitable then The probability that you'll stand at the center of a productive and abundant community is stand at the center of a productive and abundant community is radically elevated. Whereas if you're only concerned about yourself and you ensure that you're the one that's

fed first, let's say even before your children, then that's reflective of an attitude that's going to do nothing but keep you admired in poverty forever, you and your society. So strangely enough, paradoxically enough, an attitude of generous hospitality and sharing is the best way to facilitate social interaction in such a way that everything becomes abundant. And the wife of the woodcutter

is certainly selfish and cruel, and at minimum the woodcutter himself is a weak push over. That's very much also reminiscent of the situation with Eve and Adam because Eve is the primary sinner let's say or the initiator of the fall but Adam is too weak to stand up against her. And you know if there's ever a time for a father to make a stand in relationship to his children, it would be at the time when his new wife, who is not the children's biological mother, is harboring selfish and murderous thoughts towards them. So that kind of sums up the domestic situation. The two children had also not been able to sleep for hunger and had heard what their stepmother, there we go, had said to their father.

Now why is that relevant? Well, your risk for being abused in a domestic household if you're a child is radically elevated if you have a step-parent. I think the risk for abuse is a hundred times greater. It's some ridiculous amount. And so these old stories point out the danger of non-biological relationship in the hothouse of a domestic situation, especially under conditions of scarcity and privation. And that's not particularly politically correct, but raising children is a difficult endeavor and you need everything that you can possibly have working for you to ensure that you do it properly.

And one of the things that is useful to have working for you is biological relationship with the children whose care you're charged with. The two children had also not been able to sleep for hunger, unfortunate as they are in this poor and selfish household, and had heard what their stepmother had said to their father. Gretel wept bitter tears and said to Hansel, now all is over with us. Be quiet Gretel said Hansel. Do not distress thyself I will soon find a way to help us. Now you see that contrasts Hansel and Gretel with the stepmother and the woodcutter, the father, because the parents look out for themselves.

That's their first impulse, even in a murderous way. Whereas Hansel and Gretel make a team and Hansel's response to Gretel's distress is to say that he will find a way to help the both of them, so he doesn't concern himself with his own immediate survival. He extends a hospitable hand and a brave hand to his sister. And when the old folks had fallen asleep, he got up, put on his little coat, opened the door below, and crept outside. The moon shone brightly, and the white pebbles which lay in front of the house glittered like real silver pennies. Hansel stooped and put as many of them in the little

pocket of his coat as he could possibly get in. Then he went back and said to Gretel, be comforted, dear little sister, and sleep in peace. God will not forsake us." dear little sister and sleep in peace. God will not forsake us." So Hansel is emblematic of the boy who can find the shining path even in the darkness. And he lay down again in his bed. When day dawned, before the sun had risen, the woman came and awoke the two children, saying, Get up, you sluggards! We are going into the forest to fetch wood. She gave each a little piece of bread and said, There is something for your dinner, but do not eat it up before then, for you will get nothing else. Gretel took the bread under her apron as Hansel had the stones in his pocket. Then they all

set out together on the way to the forest. When they had walked a short time, Hansel stood still and peeped back at the house and did so again and again. So he's a thoughtful boy and he's planning his return home, right? And that's often the end of a story. How do you return home like the Hobbit does at the end of the, well, the Hobbit and at the end of the Lord of the Rings, right? To wander out into the world and to find your way home transformed.

Then they all set out together on the way to the forest. When they had walked a short time, Hansel stood still and peeped back at the house and did so again and again. His father said, Hansel, what art thou looking at there and staying behind for? Mind what thou art about. Mind what thou art about, and do not forget how to use thy legs." "'Ah, father,' said Hansel, I am looking at my little white cat, which is sitting up on the roof and wants to say goodbye to me.'

The wife said, "'Fool! That is not thy little cat. That is the morning sun which is shining on the chimneys.' Hansel, however, had not been looking at the cat, but had been constantly throwing out one of the white pebble stones from his pocket onto the road. When they had reached the middle of the forest, the father said, Now, children, pile up some wood and I will light a fire that you may not be cold. So he's couching his malevolence, his cowardly malevolence in a facade or patina of

Benevolence he's out in the forest taking care of his children and that's a motif that echoes through this story the contrast between the false facade of Parental paternal maternal care and the underlying malevolent reality. Hansel and Gretel gathered brushwood together as high as a little hill. The brushwood was lighted and when the flames were burning very high the woman said, now children lay yourself down by the fire and rest. We will go into the forest and cut some wood. When we have done we will come back and fetch you away. So the same thing, another sign of persona, another sign of virtue signaling, another sign of false morality, another indication you might say of, it's a variant of using using God's name in vain, the acting out of acclaim to moral virtue, obviously the woodcutter and his wife are just being good parents taking care of the children while pursuing their

own narrow, selfish, and even malevolent aims. Very bad. Hansel and Gretel sat by the fire, and when noon came each ate a little piece of bread. And as they heard the strokes of the wood axe, they believed that their father was near, so they'd been lulled into a false sense of security. It was not, which is another indication of the depth of the betrayal. So the stepmother and the weak father set their children up to assume that they're safe in the darkest place of

the woods, but they skittered off and left them to their own devices. When they heard the strokes of the wood axe, they believed that the father was near. It was not, however, the axe. It was a branch which he had fastened to a withered tree, which the wind was blowing backwards and forwards. So that's another indication of his treachery and malevolence in the service of his cruel and heartless stepmother slash wife. He's actually set up an additional trick to lull his children into a sense of security

so they won't follow and will stay lost in the forest. And as they had been sitting such a long time, their eyes shut with fatigue and they fell fast asleep. When at last they awoke, it was already dark night. Gretel began to cry and said, How are we to get out of the forest now? But Hansel comforted her and said, Just wait a little until the moon had risen, and then we will soon find the way. And when the full moon had risen, Hansel took his little sister

by the hand and followed the pebbles, which shone like newly coined silver pieces and showed them the way. They walked the whole night long." So again, you can see that Hansel is taking care of Gretel and making manifest that spirit of reciprocity and mature care that actually saves the children in the final analysis and contrasts them quite dramatically with the appalling conduct of their parents. They walked the whole night long and by break of day came once more to their father's house. They knocked at the door and when the woman opened it and saw that it was Hansel and Gretel, she said lying immediately as is her nature. So you know and that pertains to what we discussed before, the reasons for her poverty. She's cruel and selfish and prone continually to deceit and no doubt she believes that the world is a hard place dooming someone like her to abject poverty such that she can't feed herself, her husband and the children who aren't her children, but

given her character her socioeconomic circumstances are hardly surprising. You naughty children, why have you slept so long in the forest? We thought you were never coming back at all. The father, however, rejoiced, for it had cut him to the heart to leave them behind alone. Yeah, well, it might have cut him to the heart, but he didn't do much about it. Not long afterwards, there was once more great scarcity in all parts, and the children heard their mother saying at night to their father, Everything is eaten again. We have one half loaf left and after that there is an end. Those children must go.

We will take them farther into the wood so that they will not find their way out again. There is no other means of saving ourself Well, so the children have managed to fend for themselves quite adequately at this point following the silver road back home in consequence of Hansel's positive conduct his attentive attitude and his willingness to take care of his sister, but they are just children and so it's possible for the adults to

circumvent even the Wisest actions of children and betray them Effectively which is what happens next the man's heart was heavy and he thought it would be better for thee to share the last mouthful with thy children. Yeah, you think? The woman, however, would listen to nothing that he had to say but scolded and reproached him. And then the author adds a comment. He who says A must say B likewise and as he had yielded the first time he had to do a second time, he had to do so a second time also. Well his wife pokes and prods him to find his weakness of character and once having established that initially, she knows the points to leverage

and so does that again. And the authors make reference to the fact that once you've given up in relationship to a fundamental principle. The first time, it's much more likely that you'll do the same the second time. The children, however, were still awake and had heard the conversation. When the old folks were asleep, Hansel again got up and wanted to go out and pick up pebbles, as he had done before. But the woman had locked the door and Hansel could not get out. Nonetheless, he comforted his little sister and said, Do not cry, Gretel, go to sleep quietly. The good God will help us. So Hansel is also a boy of some upward

orientation and faith. And that makes itself manifest in his attitude of reciprocity towards his sister, which, as we said, contrasts with the parents, but also turns out to be the saving grace in the story. Early in the morning came the woman and took the children out of their beds. Their bit of bread was given to them, but it was still smaller than the time before. On the way into the forest, Hansel crumbled his in his pocket and often stood still and threw a morsel on the ground." So he's trying the same, a variant of the same strategy that he used last time, to leave a pathway so that when his parents lose him purposefully, he still has the wherewithal to get home.

And he's also willing to sacrifice his meal to ensure that the future remains secure and predictable. And that shows a kind of preternatural maturity on his part because he's a hungry child after all, a starving child even under in dire straits and he still has enough self-control and discipline to sacrifice his bit of bread to ensure that his sister and himself can make their way home. So that's also a testament to Hansel's character. Hansel, why dost thou stop and look round? said the father.

Go on, I'm looking back at my little pigeon which is sitting on the roof and wants to say goodbye to me, answered Hansel. Simpleton, said the woman, that is not thy little pigeon, that is the morning sun that is shining on the chimney. Hansel, however, little by little threw all the crumbs on the path. So he's thinking ahead. The woman led the children still deeper into the forest where they had never in their lives been before. Well, this description works on two levels because there's the concrete level where there is in the story the house in the forest and the forest is the place of danger and the unknown

Danger possibility in the unknown and so that's really the structure of the world a stable secure center That's the house or in principle secure. Although in this case it's inhabited by, you know, evil stepmother. The home surrounded by the unknown and the children are taken out into the unknown by the acts of their parents, but metaphysically they're abandoned to the unknown because their parents do not provide them with the security that is appropriate from the moral perspective with regard to parental conduct. So children who are the target of malevolent envy and jealousy, even murderous, on the part of their parents, motivated by

exceptionally selfish reasons justified by reference to self-induced poverty, do find themselves abandoned in the unknown." They're parentless children. "'The woman led the children still deeper into the forest where they had never in their lives been before. Then a great fire was again made. That's another sense of false security. And the mother said, "'Just sit there, you children, and when you are tired, you may sleep a little.' She's so wonderful. We are going into the forest to cut wood, and in the evening when we are

done we will come and fetch you away." When it was noon, Gretel shared her piece of bread with Hansel, who had scattered his by the way. And so Gretel is also part of a reciprocal and reciprocally altruistic duo. You could imagine a scenario where she had secretly skittered off to eat her lone piece of bread by herself, leaving her brother with nothing. But despite their privation, they prioritize sharing, and that makes them a unit, a unit with two minds, let's say, and as such a cooperative unit, they're able to deal with the unknown circumstances that present themselves to them much more effectively. That sharing hospitality is the sacrifice of momentary benefit for the advantage of long-term communion, play, communication, strategy, and mutual support.

And that is the foundation of community. Sacrifice as foundation of community. And Hansel and Gretel understand this. Then they fell asleep and evening came and went, but no one came to the poor children. They did not awake until it was dark night, and Hansel comforted his little sister and said, Just wait, Gretel, until the moon rises, and then we shall see the crumbs of bread, which I have strewn about, and they will show us our way home. When the moon came, they set out, but found no crumbs.

For the many thousands of birds which fly about in the woods and fields have picked them all up." So Hansel is stymied this time in his attempt to circumvent the machinations of his evil stepmother and his weak father, reference to his, the limits of his childhood strategizing. Hansel said to Gretel, we shall soon find the way, but they did not find it. They walked the whole night and all the next day too from morning till evening, but they did not get out of the forest and were very hungry, for they had nothing to eat but two or three berries which grew on the ground. And as they were so weary that their legs would

carry them no longer, they lay down beneath the tree and fell asleep. So they've come to the end of their own devices and they've been abandoned and betrayed by their parents and so that places them even deeper in the woods as we find out in the next paragraph. It was now three mornings since they had left their father's house. They began to walk again. But they always got deeper into the forest, and if help did not come soon, they must die

of hunger and weariness. When it was midday, they saw a beautiful snow-white bird sitting on a bough, which sang so delightfully that they stood still and listened to it. And when it had finished its song, it spread its wings and flew away before them. And they followed it until they reached a little house on the roof of which it alighted." And so the evil witch, who we'll encounter soon, sends out an attractive and welcoming avatar, familiar, you might say, to attract the children. And so this is the second time, third time in the story where we see the facade of beauty and

attractiveness, the white bird and its attractive song, serving as the camouflage that hides something much much darker and more malevolent. So this is a, this whole story is a warning about vice presenting itself as virtue and the bird is a representation of that. The children are attracted by something that's beautiful and apparently welcoming, and it entices them in their desperation into the evil witch's lair. Now that motif of the positive being used as camouflage for the negative is immediately positive being used as camouflage for the negative is immediately re-presented in the form of the house itself. They followed the bird until they reached a little house on the roof of which it alighted,

and when they came quite up to the little house they saw that it was built out of bread and covered with cakes, and that the windows were of clear sugar." "'We will set to work on that,' said Hansel, and have a good meal. "'I'll eat a bit of the roof, and thou, Gretel, can eat some of the window. It will taste sweet.' Hansel reached up above and broke off a little of the roof to try how it tasted, and Gretel leant against the window and nibbled at the panes. Then a soft voice cried from the room." Okay, so what might we conclude at this point?

This looks a little too good to be true. So you have children who are lost in the wilderness in consequence of their parents' maliciousness and weakness and malevolence, and they are as deep into the woods as they possibly can get, which means that they're in real trouble, and a beautiful bird appears and leads them not only to a house, but a house that's made out of, that's literally made out of candy. And so that all screams too good to be true. And it's a warning to everyone, children included, that it's often necessary to look behind the facade, especially in a circumstance where

things do seem to be too good to be true. Then a soft voice cried from the room, Nibble, nibble, gnaw. Who is nibbling at my little house? The children answered, The wind, the wind, the heaven-born wind, and went out eating without disturbing themselves. Hansel, who thought the roof tasted very nice, tore down a great piece of it and Gretel pushed out the whole of one round window pane, sat down and enjoyed herself with it. Suddenly the door opened and a very, very old woman who supported herself on crutches came creeping out. Hansel and Gretel were so terribly frightened

that they let fall what they had in their hands. The old woman, however, nodded her head and said, Oh, you dear children! Who has brought you here? Do come in and stay with me. No harm shall happen to you.' She took them both by the hand and led them into her little house. Then good food was set before them, milk and pancakes and sugar, apples and nuts. Afterwards, two pretty little beds were covered with clean white linen, and Hansel and Gretel lay down in them and thought they were in heaven." There's a deep motif here of, as I alluded to earlier, of the pathologies of camouflaged virtue signaling. So children are very dependent, and they're

dependent primarily on maternal benevolence. And what that means is that that maternal benevolence can be gamed by pathological actors who can accrue to themselves all of the reputational virtue of the positive mother. You can think about this politically as well. The maternal force that cares for everything and including the planet and everything on it, but in reality is doing nothing but serving its own malicious and carnivorous or even cannibalistic urges. It's a very dark story. And so the worst evil takes the greatest good and perverts it to the worst possible end. And that's what we see happening here.

The old woman had only pretended to be so kind. She was in reality a wicked witch who lay in wait for children and had only built the little house of bread in order to entice them. When a child fell into her power, she killed it, cooked it, and ate it, and that was a feast day for her. Witches have red eyes and cannot see far, but they have a keen scent, like the beasts, and are aware when human beings draw near. When Hansel and Gretel came into her neighbourhood, she laughed maliciously and said mockingly,

I have them. They will not escape me again now there's an another motif here apart from the pathology of glorious maternal compassionate virtue signaling, masking, carnivorous or cannibalistic urges. And that is the danger of maternal hyper-solicitude. So human beings have the longest developmental period of any creature and it can last almost two decades, let's say. And what that means is that a force that powerful can easily go wrong. A mother shouldn't be so kind. She should take care of her children, but not offer them too much, too much being a

convenient house in the midst of danger, but not only a house, a house literally made out of candy and cake. The mother who offers her children too much who does everything for them who Goes above and beyond the call of duty to announce to the world her virtuous compassion as the highest possible moral virtue is also the hovering helicopter mother who ends up Devouring her own children. So if it looks and sounds too good to be true, there's some real possibility that it is. I remember my mother told me once, my mother she died very recently last year,

she's a very agreeable person and a compassionate person, but she had a spine and she didn't overindulge her children or overprotect them. And I left home when I was about 16. I'd been having some friction with my father, which was some him and some me, perhaps even mostly me. And then once I left and went to college, our relationship renormalized and maintained itself quite positively from that time forward. My mom said to me after I had returned from college, when we were talking about having left and the fact that things had settled up, she said, you know, and the conflict that

accompanied my leaving, she said, you know, if it was too good at home, you'd never leave. And I thought that was my mother in a nutshell because she was a very pleasant person and a very caring person and hospitable, but she had enough sense to know that a little bit of pushing her children out of the nest was actually a very positive thing and this evil witch is all too good and announcing that continually Early in the morning before the children were awake She was already up and when she saw both of them sleeping and looking so pretty, with their plump red cheeks, she muttered to herself, That will be a dainty mouthful.

Then she seized Hansel with her shriveled hand, carried him into a little stable, and shut him in behind a grated door. He might scream as he liked. That was of no use. Then she went to Gretel, shook her till she awoke and cried, Get up, lazy thing fetch some water and cook something good for thy brother he's in the stable outside and is to be made fat and so that's an interesting twist in the story too because mothers obviously

feed their children and that's part of maternal, but to overfeed a child is again to make a pathology of care, right? To make a show of that maternal solicitude at the cost of the child's health and wellbeing. And so that's the meaning of the motif that she's fattening up her, Ersat's son, her temporary son, for no other reason than to devour him. He is in the stable outside and is to be made fat. When he is fat, I will eat him. Gretel began to weep bitterly, but it was all in vain. She was forced to do what the Wicked Witch ordered her. And now the best food was cooked for poor Hansel, but Gretel got nothing but crab shells.

Every morning the woman crept to the little stable and cried, Hansel, stretch out thy finger that I may feel if thou wilt soon be fat. Hansel, however, stretched out a little bone to her, and the old woman who had dim eyes could not see it and thought it was Hansel's finger, and was astonished that there was no way of fattening him. Well, that's another indication of Hansel's self-sufficiency. He's attentive enough and intelligent enough to notice what the old woman is up to, quite clearly not to deceive himself about her intent, and in consequence of that careful attentiveness and refusal to deceive himself, he plays a trick on her and indicates to her that he is by no means optimally positioned to serve as a meal.

When four weeks had gone by and Hansel still continued thin she was seized with impatience and would not wait any longer Hola Gretel she cried to the girl be active and bring some water. Let Hansel be fat or lean tomorrow I will kill him and cook him How the poor little sister did lament when she had to fetch the water and how her tears did flow down over her cheeks, again an indication that she really loved her brother. A contrary attitude might be that she was quite relieved that it was Hansel who was serving as main course rather than her. Dear God, do help us, we should at any rate have died together.

That's hammering home that motif of union in the face of adversity. Just keep thy noise to thyself, said the old woman. All that won't help thee at all. Early in the morning Gretel had to go out and hang up the cauldron with the water and light the fire. We will bake first, said the old woman. I have already heated the oven and kneaded the dough. She pushed poor Gretel out to the oven, from which flames of fire were already darting. Creep in, said the witch, see if it is properly heated, so that we can shut the brand in. And when once Gretel was inside, she intended to shut the oven and let her bake in there then she would eat her too

But Gretel also being an awake child properly taken care of let's say by her brother Unwilling to deceive herself about the motivation of the woman who's just too good to be true to deceive herself about the motivation of the woman who's just too good to be true. Gretel saw what she had in her mind and said, I do not know how I am to do it. How do you get in? Silly ghost said the old woman, the door is big enough. Look, I can get in myself. And she crept up and thrust her head into the oven.

Then Gretel, who's an enterprising young woman, gave her a push that drove her far into it and shut the iron door and fastened the bolt. Oh, then she began to howl quite horribly, but Gretel ran away and the godless witch was miserably burnt to death." So Hansel and Gretel are awake enough to defend themselves against the evil machinations of the camouflaged witch, the witch camouflaged in virtue. And you know, one of the things Carl Jung said about pathological families was that children are also often offered an easy way out by an over-solicitous parent, for example, but that they don't necessarily have to take the bait.

So you could imagine a lonely mother with a child who has, oh, maybe a cold, and the mother is hoping that the child could stay home from school so that she has company. And she suggests to the child verbally and non-verbally that his or her state of physical health is sufficiently compromised so that staying home from school might be justifiable. And the child knows full well that he's not particularly sick, but takes the bait and then enters into a pathological covenant with the mother such that he exaggerates his proclivity for illness and brings illness onto himself in so doing and

She benefits from the fact that she can make her maternal solicitude Manifest publicly benefit from that display of virtue and also not have to be alone and so Hansel and Gretel are not playing games of that sort there Maybe because they're bonded together and taking care of each other, maybe because they're oriented properly. They're capable of fending for themselves and taking action when necessary and not falling machinations of the over-demonstrative mother figure who in truth wants to devour them. Children have a moral responsibility too, you know, I mean, and that's a tricky thing to manage, but it takes two to tango, and that doesn't mean I'm blaming the child in

situations where the family becomes pathological No, I had people in my clinical practice who were offered pathological invitations, let's say by their parents and they resisted instead of falling prey to them and managed to free themselves from the situation and so, you know, everybody has their destiny and that includes children and we make our beds even when we're very young and then are required to lie in them. Gretel ran like lightning to Hansel, opened his little stable and cried, Hansel we're saved! The old witch is dead! So immediately her

first response is to go rescue her brother. Then Hansel spr we're saved! The old witch is dead!" So immediately her first response is to go rescue her brother. Then Hansel sprang out like a bird from its cage when the door is opened for it. How they did rejoice and embrace each other and dance about and kiss each other. And as they no longer had any need to fear her, they went into the witch's house." You know, and that's, that, that, that, that is indication of some real bravery on their part as well in some curiosity because You could easily imagine that their first impulse would be to get the hell away from that place as rapidly as possible But they're they're courageous enough to investigate and what they find is in every corner

They're stood chests full of pearls and jewels These are far better than pebbles said Hans Hansel, and thrust into his pockets whatever could be got in. And Gretel said, I too will take something home with me, and filled her pinafore full. But now we will go away," said Hansel, that we may get out of the witch's forest." So why did the children find a great treasure in the witch's house? Well, they found a great treasure in the defeated Witch's house, right? That's a crucial distinction and the greatest treasure that

children can find is the Means of assuring their own mature independence you remember now mature independence. You remember now, Hansel found pebbles that would help him, used pebbles that would help him find his way home and he makes an allusion here to the fact that these pearls are better than the pebbles that he had and that's an indication that, like it's an echoing or a parallelism indicating that the treasure that they have now found is the treasure that always helps everyone adventure and return home. Well that's a genuine maturity and it's a maturity that an independence that the children found in being forthright, in maintaining their union in love, and in defeating the over-solicitous maternal embrace.

When they had walked for two hours, they came to a great piece of water. We cannot get over, said Hansel, I see no foot-plank and no bridge, and no boat-crosses either, answered Gretel but a white duck is swimming there if I ask her she will help us over then she cried little duck little duck dost thou see Hansel and Gretel are waiting for thee there's never a plank or a bridge in sight take us across on the back so white well it's a magical transition back to the familiarity of household and father, and the water serves as that bridge and the duck as the magical means of transport from the ultimately unknown where the evil force of maternal devouring lies in wait.

It's a transition point back to the normal world. And then there's an echo here again of the thoughtfulness of the children, because the duck came to them and Hansel seated himself on its back and told his sister to sit by him. No, replied Gretel, that will be too heavy for the little duck. She shall take us across one after the other So even under those circumstances The children are looking out for each other

Hansel invites Gretel to sit by him, but they're also paying attention to the circumstances even in the midst of their good fortune So that they don't take undue advantage of what's being offered to them. And so they're patient, they allow the bird to transport them one at a time, and that also ensures their safety. So they're actually very wise little children and things work out reasonably well for them. The good little duck did so and when they were once safely across

and had walked for a short time, the forest seemed to be more and more familiar to them, and at length they saw from afar their father's house. Then they began to run, rushed into the parlor, and threw themselves into their father's arms. The man had not known one happy hour since he had left the children in the forest, well, I should hope not. The woman, however, was dead.

Gretel emptied her pinafore until pearls and precious stones ran about the room and Hansel threw one handful after another out of his pocket to add to them. Then all anxiety was at an end, and they lived together in perfect happiness. My tale is done. There runs a mouse. Whoever catches it may make himself a big fur cap out of it." Hard to tell what that ending means.

So well, the children have an adventure. It's an initiation. They go into the depths of the forest in consequence of a profound betrayal. They encounter the one of the darkest extant spirits, that devouring force of maternal over solicitude. They keep their wits about them. They see through the facade. They defeat the evil witch. They maintain their partnership, they capture the treasure of great price in consequence of their maturity, bravery and attentiveness, and they make their way home. And that's the end of Hansel and Gretel. Music