The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Bishop Barron: Catholicism and the Modern Age

Episode Date: June 23, 2019

For Ep 14, we present Dr. Peterson's highly anticipated conversation with Bishop Barron.

Welcome to season 2, episode 14 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson, dad's daughter and collaborator. If you're new to tuning in, you might not have heard of the health troubles my mom's having. Not to get everybody down, but people have been asking about what's going on in our family, so here it is. She had a kidney removal surgery about six weeks ago in May and has suffered from some serious and extremely rare post-operative complications. We've been stressed to death,

particularly dad, but mom's getting better slowly. So we have some tentative hope at the moment. I think everything will be okay, but it's been really hot on my parents. Well, it's been hard on everybody. We've received a lot of really kind messages and support, so if you are one of those people who reached out, it's mental hot. That's the update for this week. Next week is hopefully going to be a bit brighter. Today we're presenting the podcast titled Catholicism and the Modern Age with Bishop Baron. Dad's conversation with Bishop Baron was recorded on March 26, 2019. Bishop Robert Emmett Baron was a professor of systematic theology at the University of St. Mary of the Lake.

He founded the Catholic Ministry Word on Fire and has published a number of books, including Catholicism, a journey to the heart of the faith. He has a large YouTube and Facebook presence and is among the rare religious figures managing a substantial public impact in the present world. When we return, Dad's conversation with Bishop Baron. Bishop Robert Emmett Baron is a US-based prelate of the Roman Catholic Church, serving as an auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. He was a professor of systematic theology at University of St. Mary of the Lake from 1992 until 2015. Upgraded in 2008 to the inaugural Francis Cartel George Professor of Faith and Culture. He founded the Catholic Ministry Word on Fire, which employs traditional and digital media to describe the doctrines of Catholicism to the general public.

Word on Fire published the Ten Parts series Catholicism, which was broadcast on PBS in 2011, and which Bishop Baron hosted. He's published a number of books, including Catholicism, a journey to the heart of the faith, vibrant paradoxes, the both slash and of Catholicism, and very recently, your life is worth living with Fulton Sheen published on March 5, 2019. He has a substantive YouTube presence with a total viewership of 30 million and is well known on Facebook as well

with 1.5 million followers. Clearly, Bishop Baron is among the rare religious figures managing a substantial public impact in the present world. It's very nice to see you. I've been looking forward to our meeting for quite a long time. Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, well, people keep writing and saying, you have to talk to Bishop Barron and then they come up to me and they say, you have to talk to Bishop Barron and so... Well, I've got the same thing from the other side. Everyone's telling me to talk to you. So it must be in God's providence.

I suppose at least we can hope that that's the case. So why do people want us to talk as far as you're concerned? Yeah, you know, I'm not entirely sure, but I would say I think you've opened a lot of doors for people to religion in an era when, you know, the new atheists are very influential among young people. And I think you've opened doors that legitimize

at least re-approaching these great issues and questions and texts. I'm doing it, I suppose, in a more explicit way. But you're, I think, paving the way for an awful lot of people at least to reconsider religion. So maybe they find that intriguing. And probably the fact that we're both coming out of an academic background,

but then trying to reach out more widely through the social media. So there's that in common, but I just speak for myself. That's what I see in you that's been so powerful. Because in the wake of the New Atheist critique, I mean, I just find that so, such a desert opens up for young people, and I deal with young people all the time, and I hear the echoes of Hitchens and Dawkins and Sam Harris all the time, but it's such a finely bleak view, and religion

speaks to these deepest longings of the heart. I think you, for a lot of people, made that again possible, at least to think coherently and rationally about those things. So I found that very uplifting and helpful, and I think a lot of people have too. If maybe they see a point of contact there between the two of us. Well, maybe, you know, it's funny because I've received letters from people of different faiths from all of the world, like, surprising number of people, Catholics and a lot of Orthodox Christians, a lot of Orthodox Jews, a substantial number of Muslims far more than I would have ever suspected Protestants and monks and Buddhists and Hindus who are all following the lecture series idea on Genesis back in 2017.

And also, you know, a tremendous number of atheists. I would say they probably outnumber the religious people surprisingly enough and they've said that the tack that I've taken, which is I would say kind of a fine balancing line between the religious and the psychological seems to... Well, I guess it's had the same effect on the people that I've been talking to that it's had on on me, like these stories have had a profound effect on me. Well, you know, I've talked about you actually to the American bishops because I'm on this I'm the chair of the Evangelization and

Catechese's Committee. So the bishops concerned about how we propagate the faith today, you know, and I've laid out for them a lot of the grims Statistics and they are grim about especially young people leaving the Catholic Church For everyone the join six are leaving now. We have the highest rate of people leaving Anyway, I've gone through some of those stats, but then I've I've signaled signs of hope and You're one of them. I said, the fact that this gentleman who's speaking about, I'd say, spiritual things, and certainly now about the Bible in a way that is smart and compelling, especially young people, is hopeful. So many might be leaving, you know, official religion, but the religious questions have not left their minds.

And I think you're addressing that in a way that's very provocative and compelling. And it's given me a sort of renewed courage to say, well, why can't we do the same thing? Why have we, it's our book. I mean, let's face it, the Bible is the book that churches produced, it's the heart of the church's life. But why isn't it someone who's at least in a formal sense outside the church doing a better job than we are

at explicating it? And so I think it will be a mystery. I think it will be a mystery. Well, I feel too that my position outside the church is actually critical to the success of what I'm doing. You know, people have tried to pin me down multiple times with regards to my belief in God. I actually did a two-hour lecture in, I guess it was a 70-minute lecture in Australia about that question because I thought about it a lot and about... I've always felt imposed upon, I would say, and boxed in when people asked me that question, but I finally figured out that I didn't really feel that I had the moral right to make a claim about belief in God. I mean, that's not a trivial thing to, to, let's say, proclaim. You know, because it's not merely a matter of stating in some verbal manner that I am willing to agree semantically with a set of doctrines. It means that you have to live. You have to commit to living a certain way. Yeah. And the demand of that life is so stringent and so all consuming. And you're so unlikely to live up to it, that to make the claim that you believe, I think, is, to me, it's a smacks of a kind of, I mean, I understand

why people do it, and this isn't a criticism of people's statement of faith, but for me, the critical element of belief is action, and the requirements of Christianity are so incredibly demanding that I don't see how you can proclaim yourself a believer without being terrified of immediately being struck down by lightning or some such cosmic... You know, there's a lot to that. There's a lot to it. The story that I've always loved about origin, the great church father, whom Jung loved by the way.

Jung saw the church fathers as some of the first great psychologists and origin sermons on Genesis Exodus are like yours in many ways. I don't know if you've been reading him explicitly, but there's sort of psycho dynamic and spiritual reading origins all over that. But the story is about this young guy named Gregory who comes to origin to learn the doctrine of the Christians. And the origin said to him, first you must come and live our life and then you'll understand our doctrine. And that young kid, Gregory, became St. Gregory, Thalmaturgas. He becomes a great saint of a church. But he had to get into the life first. And there's a lot to that. I think the practices of Christianity, they get into the life first. And there's a lot to that. I think the practices of Christianity,

they get into your body before they get into your mind. It's also true, I think that when you take away a lot of practices that surround certain doctrines, the doctrine fades from people's minds. When I was a kid, there was still the practice around the blessed sacrament, people with genuoflections and before you entered the pew in church, you with genuoflections, and before you entered the pew in church, you would genuflect. In fact, they say that Catholics of my parish generation, when they come into a movie theater to see a movie, and the rows of seats, they would genuflect before they got into the role. But see, that means this thing was so in their bodies, but that practice was communicating to the mind the importance of what's in front of them. Well, the same is true really, all the doctrines. God in some ways is a function of this manner of life.

And so I've emphasized that actually a lot in my own work, the postmodern's who have influenced a Christianity are very strong on that two practices. I mean, might take Jordan, there's a hundred ways in to the question of God. There's all kinds of paths. One of them being just that, ritual, the body, the moral life is a way in to look at the saints and try to be a saint is a great way in. Jared Manley Hopkins, the great Jesuit poet, who was a convert under John Henry Newman, so he himself went through this process of discovering the faith.

But someone came to him and said, I'm really wrestling with belief in God. And he said, give alms. He didn't provide an argument or a proof. He said, do something. And of course, if you play a whole thing out, I mean, if God is love, that's what God is, then performing an act of love gets you closer to God

than almost anything else. And so the giving ofling of arms can lead you into that sacred space. Now, the questing mind, I mean, then wants to ask all kinds of questions about it and ground it. So, you know, Fida's Quarance and Delectum of Anselmite faith seeking understanding. That's where theology, philosophy will come in. Well, you know, when I've been talking to my audiences practically about certain elements of, let's say, Judeo-Christian fundamental belief, so, and, you know, I spent, I think, two and a half hours, the first biblical lecture I did on the first sentence of Genesis, and then tried to take the opening chapters apart in great detail, but it's a very interesting

propositions from a psychological and philosophical perspective in Genesis. I mean, I look at it sort of technically in some sense as a statement about the nature of being. I mean, in some sense as a statement about the nature of being. I mean what Genesis reveals to me is that there has to be a structure to encounter possibility or that there is a structure that encounters possibility. That's part of that's built into reality itself and that structure is God the Father and that structure uses a process and the process is the logos, and the logos is something like courageous, truthful communication. It's the word, but it's much more than that, and it uses that to encounter this potential and to generate order. And it seems to me that that's

psychologically akin to what human beings do with their own consciousness. You know, the new atheist types and the materialist scientists tend to consider human beings deterministic organisms, but my understanding of neuropsychology is that the only time that we are deterministic organisms is when circuits for specific tasks have been built up through lengthy practice and can be run automatically. And much of the time in our lives, and I talked to my audience about this, what we do is we wake up in the morning, our consciousness reappears on the plane of being, let's say, and what we face in front of us is an unstructured and potential filled chaos. And and our consciousness determines the manner in which that

potential transforms itself into the actuality of order into the present and the past and I think everyone understands that we treat each other that way like we treat each other we way. Like, we treat each other, we treat ourselves as if we are responsible for what we bring into existence. That's part of our moral responsibility. We treat each other as if that's part of what makes us worthwhile as creatures, right?

That's part of our value. We treat ourselves as if the nature of what we bring into being is determined by our choices between good and evil. And we treat other people the same way. Like, you can't have a friendship with someone. If you don't believe that they have that power of choice and that capacity for morality, you don't have any respect for them and they won't interact with you. And so you can't found a friendship on that and you can't found a family and you can't found a society or without the fundamental presupposition that individuals, this is another element, of course, of the presupposition in Genesis,

that the individual is somehow made in the image of God. If God is that which confronts potential and generates order, and more, you know, because God says to in Genesis that every time He constructs something that's new and orderly, using the locals, you know, because God says too, in Genesis, that every time he constructs something that's new and orderly, using the locals, he says, and it was good. And that's so fascinating to me, because it's repeated so many times, because what it implies is that if you confront if the potential of being is confronted with what's good and truthful and courageous, then what emerges as a consequence is good. And I also believe that to be the case for individuals. If you confront the world in a matter that's came like bitter, incapable of making the proper sacrifices, enraged jealous, outraged out the

suffering of existence and its essential unfairness. Then you become vengeful and bitter and murderous and genocidal and yeah, that seems like no positive way forward. That's so hard. Yeah, with the with the new atheist types, you know, they demolish the metaphysics without really thinking it through, I think, and they leave people with with nothing. And the nothing is so empty that it just produces, it really produces pain for people. Like I've talked to many, many, many people, including atheists who have been vastly relieved

to find some deeper meaning in the archaic stories that are cultures predicated on. And day, I deal with that. It's people that they feel obligated intellectually to accept the new atheist conclusions, but then their whole soul is rebelling against it. And I would say for obvious reasons. You know what's very interesting to me, Jordan,

is I got a colleague, Chris Kessor, who teaches at LMU, he's written on your stuff. And he said, what Peterson is doing is what the church fathers would have called the tropological reading of the scriptures, you know, the four senses. You got the literal historical interpretation. You've got the allegorical, The church fathers would have called the tropological reading of the scriptures, you know, the four senses. You got the literal historical interpretation.

You've got the allegorical, so it has to do with Jesus. You have the anagogical having to do with the journey to heaven. But the tropological, they would have seen as the moral sense. So what it has to do about our moral lives, and I think in our categories, say maybe the psychological life, et cetera. And so I think what you just proposed there is a cool, sort of, troplological reading of those texts. I mean, without denying it, I'd press on the more metaphysical stuff.

Joseph Rotsinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI, did a wonderful meditation on Genesis, saying that, to say, I believe in God, to say, I believe in the primacy of logus over and against mirror matter. It's over and against a merely materialist view. Then what's more metaphysically primordial is Lagos. And he would stress intelligibility, that the fact that God speaks the world into being

means it's marked in every nook and cranny by something like intelligibility, which in turn would ground anything like the sciences. I mean, any scientist goes out to meet a world that at least he or she assumes is intelligible, you know? So the intelligibility of things, the rational structure within being is coming from the logos.

But the other thing that I think is really intriguing about the genesis that opening move is the dethroning of all the false claimants to divinity. So all the things that come forth from God, you know, from sun and moon and the animals and so on and so forth were all things that were worshiped in various cultures in the ancient world. So the author is saying, no, no, no, no, these things are not themselves ultimate. They're not the logos from which all things come. But then the cool twist to me, it's not just a no because,

I see Catholics get this because the way that text is structured, it's liturgically structured. It's like a liturgical procession. Everything coming forth in this ordered way. At the end of the procession come human beings, right? So at the end of a liturgical procession is the one who will lead the praise. And so the point there, and this goes back to Augustine and people like that. The point is none of these things is God, but all these things belong in a chorus of praise

of the true God led by us. So, and there's the human role is to give proper praise to God. Well, I mean, there's critics, for example, there's a critic in Canada, a well-known environmentalist, David Suzuki, who believes that one of the sins and the the philosopher the German philosopher what's his name? You have to narrow that one down? Yes, the phenomenologist. Whistler? No, his student. Heightiger. Heightiger, you know, believed that the Judeo Christian texts had given us the right to treat the world as if it's produce, you know, there.

But that's getting exactly backwards, isn't it? Yes, well, it's this deep respect for our fellow creatures as part of the core of surprise and the dominion is not domination. I think it's that kind of right ordering. And the thing there is, there's been a lot of interesting studies recently of the temple, the ancient temple and how it was covered inside now by symbols of the cosmos, you know, animals and plants and planets and stars and so on. The idea being when Israel gathered for right praise, it was the whole universe being gathered for right praise. Now look at that in the Gothic churches.

You go up to Notre-Dame and all that. It's not an anthropocentric thing. You've got the planets and stars and astrological signs and animals galore because the cathedral was a successor of the temple, the place of right praise. And it's drawing creation in. See, I think it's much more modernity that is rough on nature and rough on the animal kingdom. Thomas Aquinas is not. I mean, go back to the pre-modern Christian thinkers. They're not anti-nature on the contrary, because the biblical vision is salvation is a cosmic reality. God's

trying to save all of his creation. That's the Noah story. The ark is like a floating temple, right? So it's a little microcosm of the right order of things led by... By a family. Yeah, by a family. It's property order. And what are they concerned about? The animals. They're concerned about life that God created. That's why the ark becomes a symbol of the church. So all the churches are meant to look like ships, you have like, nave, right? The ship, the central aisle of the church. But there meant to be a little floating temple where creation is honored and preserved. So no, I was also interesting to note

that in the Noah's story, that there's a tremendous emphasis on the idea that Noah, who's someone who, like Adam before the fall, walked with God, was capable because he could act nobly and courageously and truthfully and also put his family together. He was actually capable of shepherding the complex creation of being in its totality through a period of absolute chaos. And when I look at the environmental challenges, let's say, that we face today because of the complexity of the 9 billion of us, or the 9 billion that there will be, and the necessity of making sure that everyone has adequate security and shelter and food and freedom. I see that the proper pathway forward to dealing with that is for people to put themselves together and to

put their families together and their communities together and that the consequence of that, the natural consequence of that adoption of ultimate responsibility would be the extension of care beyond the immediate, beyond the social even, and so that everything does depend, I would say. And this is something I learned from young, from you, was that far more than we think depends on the orderly progression and care of the soul. All of it depends on it. And you know, when I talk to my audiences, it's so interesting. And I think it might be something that the church is missing if I could be so good. Well, you know, I've talked to about 150 live audiences now about this sort of thing,

independent of all my classroom lectures. And I'll tell you, I tell people, I suggest to people that the really the ancient idea that life is suffering and that it's tainted by malevolence, that there's no more true ideas than that, in some base sense, and that that's something that everyone has to contend with. And if you don't contend with it properly, then you become embittered and you work to make things worse.

And everyone understands that. Everyone knows that's true. And then I suggest to them that the proper way out of that isn't the pursuit of material satisfaction or impulsive happiness or rights from the individual perspective, but the adoption of responsibility. And I'll tell you, every single time I talk about that, you can hear a pin drop in the auditorium. Yeah, I believe that. And I think one of the things that the church has failed to communicate properly is that You need a noble goal in life to butchers yourself against its catastrophe. And I mean, he labels a good example of that in the Abel and Cain's story, because he devotes

himself property to God and things work out for him. Well, they work out for him. It doesn't end for him. No, it doesn't, but I mean, good is sometimes defeated by evil, but I mean obviously he lives a proper and admirable life and It it needs to be communicated to young people right with actually young men the biblical key is always right praise And that's I go right back to Genesis one is is when we give praise to God, drawing all creation together, then our soul becomes ordered properly, and then around us, a kingdom of right order is built up.

In the Catholic Mass, we have that wonderful prayer of the Gloria, we say, glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will, and it's like a formula that if I can go on the highest, then there will be peace around me. It's like a condensation of the sermon on the mount because that's exactly what that that sermon seems to see that sermon seems to me, and I also believe it to be psychologically true, is that true is that it's necessary for you to aim at the highest value that you can conceive of.

And that has to have something to do with the amelioration of suffering and the constraint of malevolence. It'll express itself in a way. Yeah, at least as a negative and then once you concentrate on that and Focus on that and decide that that's your your primary aim then Things do start to order themselves around you because well everything that you see and do directs itself towards that aim But that's the yes, this you I'd, strangely and uniquely Christian thing is that we say, okay, the, the God that we're worshiping, the God revealed in the Old Testament, but then finally revealed in Jesus Christ as I'm looking over my computer screen right now,

I'm looking at the crucifix of Jesus, right? So my praise is directed to a God who is entered radically into suffering, not just physical suffering, but the whole brokenness of the world of stupidity and cruelty and injustice and hatred, that's where God has gone. So the God that I worship is that God who himself is dedicated to the amelioration of suffering

or of healing the suffering of the world. But that's the way it's gonna express itself in a fallen, conflictual world, Right praise will end up looking like love, looking like love for those who suffer. But see, I think that's the mass to me, the master theme of the whole Bible. Israel always goes wrong without exception when its praise goes wrong. It starts praising the wrong things. Now that's what happens in Exodus when Moses leads the Israelites to the desert, right? They're in the same position we're in in the modern world. Welcome to season two, episode 14 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

I'm Michaela Peterson, dad's daughter and collaborator. If you're new to tuning in, you might not have heard of the health troubles my mom's having. Not to get everybody down, but people have been asking about what's going on in our family, so here it is. She had a kidney removal surgery about six weeks ago in May and has suffered from some serious and extremely rare post-operative complications. We've been stressed to death, particularly dad, but mom's getting better slowly. So we have some tentative hope at the moment. I think everything will be okay, but it's been really hot on my parents.

Well, it's been hard on everybody. We've received a lot of really kind messages and support, and so if you are one of those people who reached out, it's meant a lot. That's the update for this week. Next week is hopefully going to be a bit brighter. Today we're presenting the podcast titled Catholicism and the Modern Age with Bishop Barron.

Dad's conversation with Bishop Barron was recorded on March 26, 2019. Bishop Robert Emmett Barron was a professor of systematic theology at the University of St. Mary of the Lake. He founded the Catholic Ministry Word on Fire and has published a number of books, including Catholicism, a journey to the heart of the faith. He has a large YouTube and Facebook presence and is among the rare religious figures managing a substantial public impact in the present world. When we return, Dad's conversation with Bishop Baron.

Bishop Robert Emmett Baron is a US-based prelate of the Roman Catholic Church, serving as an auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. He was a professor of systematic theology at University of St. Mary of the Lake from 1992 until 2015, upgraded in 2008 to the inaugural Francis Cartel George Professor of Faith and Culture. He founded the Catholic Ministry Word on Fire, which employs traditional and digital media to describe the doctrines of Catholicism to the general public. Word on Fire published the Ten-Part series Catholicism, which was broadcast on PBS in 2011, and which Bishop Baron hosted. He's published a number of books, including Catholicism, a journey to the heart of the faith, vibrant paradoxes,

the both slash and of Catholicism, and very recently, your life is worth living with Fulton Sheen published on March 5, 2019. He has a substantive YouTube presence with a total viewership of 30 million and is well known on Facebook as well with 1.5 million followers. Clearly, Bishop Baron is among the rare religious figures managing a substantial public impact in the present world. It's very nice to see you. I've been looking forward to our meeting for quite a long time.

Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, well, people keep writing and saying, you have to talk to Bishop Baron, and then they come up people keep writing and saying, you have to talk to Bishop Baron, and then they come up to me and they say, you have to talk to Bishop Baron. Well, I've got the same thing from the other side, everyone tell me to talk to you. So it must be in God's providence.

I suppose at least we can hope that that's the case. So why do people want us to talk as far as you're concerned? Yeah, you know, I'm not entirely sure, but I would say, I think you've So why do people want us to talk as far as you're concerned? Yeah, you know, I'm not entirely sure, but I would say, I think you've opened a lot of doors for people to religion in an era when, you know, the new atheists are very influential among young people. And I think you've opened doors that legitimize, at least, re-approaching these great issues

and questions and texts. I'm doing it, I suppose, in a more explicit way, but you're I think paving the way for an awful lot of people at least to reconsider religion. So maybe they find that intriguing, probably the fact that we're both coming out of an academic background but then trying to reach out more widely through the social media. So there's that in common, but you know, I just speak for myself. That's what I see in you. That's been so powerful. Because in the wake of the New Atheist critique, I mean, I just find that so such a desert opens up for young people. And I deal with young people all the time. And I hear the echoes of Hitchens and Dawkins and Sam Harris all the time. But it's such a finely bleak view.

And religion speaks to these deepest longings of the heart. And I think you've, for a lot of people, made that again possible, at least to think coherently and rationally about those things. So I found that very uplifting and helpful. And I think a lot of people have, too. Maybe they see a point of contact there between the two of us. Well, maybe, you know, it's funny because I've received letters from people of different faiths from all of the world, like, surprising number of people,

Catholics and a lot of Orthodox Christians, a lot of Orthodox Jews, a substantial number of Muslims, far more than I would have ever suspected Protestants and monks and Buddhists and Hindus who are all following the lecture series idea on Genesis back in 2017. And also, you know, a tremendous number of atheists. I would say they probably outnumber the religious people, surprisingly enough, and they've said that the tack that I've taken, which is, I would say, kind of a fine balancing line between the religious and the psychological seems to. Well, I guess it's had the same effect on the people that I've been talking to that it's

had on me, like these stories have had a profound effect on me. Well, you know, I've talked about you actually to the American bishops because I'm on this I'm the chair of the Evangelization and Catechese's committee. So the bishops concerned about how we propagate the faith today, you know, and I've laid out for them a lot of the grim statistics and they are grim about especially young people leaving the Catholic Church. For everyone that joins six are leaving now. We have the highest rate of people leaving the Catholic Church. For everyone, the join, six are leaving now. We have the highest rate of people leaving. Anyway, I've gone through some of those stats,

but then I've signaled signs of hope. And you're one of them. I said, the fact that this gentleman who's speaking about, I'd say spiritual things, and certainly now about the Bible in a way that is smart and compelling, especially young people, is hopeful. So many might be leaving official religion, but the religious questions have not left their minds. And I think you're addressing that in a way that's very provocative and compelling.

And it's given me a sort of renewed courage to say, well, why can't we do the same thing? Why have we, it's our book. I mean, let's face it, the Bible is the book that churches produced, it's the heart of the church's life. But why isn't it someone who's at least in a formal sense outside the church doing a better job than we are at explicating it? And so I think it's a mystery. I have some mystery.

Well, I feel too that my position outside the church is actually critical to the success of what I'm doing. You know, people have tried to pin me down multiple times with regards to my belief in God. I actually did a two-hour lecture in, I guess it was a 70-minute lecture in Australia about that question because I thought about it a lot and about, I've always felt imposed upon, I would say, and boxed in when people asked me that question, but I finally figured out that I didn't really feel that I had the moral right to make a claim about belief in God. I mean, that's not a trivial thing to, to, let's say, proclaim. You know, because it's not merely a matter of stating in some verbal manner that I am willing to agree

semantically with a set of doctrines. It means that you have to live. You have to commit to living a certain way. And the demand of that life is so stringent and so all-consuming. And you're so unlikely to live up to it, that to make the claim that you believe, I think is a, to me, it's a smack of a kind of, I mean, I understand why people do it, and this isn't a criticism of people's statement of faith, but for me, the critical element of belief is action. And the requirements of Christianity are so incredibly demanding that I don't see how you can proclaim yourself a believer without being terrified of immediately being struck down by lightning or some such cosmic...

There's a lot to that. I mean, there's a lot to it. The story that I've always loved about origin, the great church father, whom Jung loved by the way. I mean, Jung saw the church father as some of the first great psychologists and origin sermons on Genesis Exodus are like yours in many ways. I mean, I don't know if you've been reading him explicitly, but that sort of psycho dynamic and origin sermons on Genesis Exodus are like yours in many ways. I don't know if you've been reading him explicitly,

but that sort of psycho dynamic and spiritual reading origins all over that. But the story is about this young guy, and in Gregory, who comes to origin to learn the doctrine of the Christians. And the origin said to him, first you must come and live our life, and then you'll understand our doctrine. And that young kid, Gregory, became St. Gregory Thalmaturgas. He becomes a great saint of a church. But he had to get into the life first. And there's a lot to that. I think the practices of Christianity, they get into your body before

they get into your mind. It's also true, I think that when you take away a lot of practices that surround certain doctrines, the doctrine fades from people's minds. When I was a kid, there was still the practice around the blessed sacrament, people with genuoflections, and before you entered the pew in church, you would genuflect. In fact, they say that Catholics of my Paris generation, when they'd come into a movie theater to see a movie, and the rows of seats, they would genuflect before they got into the role. But see, that means this thing was so in their bodies, you know, but that practice was communicating to the mind, the importance of what's in front of them. Well, the same is true really all the

doctrines, you know, God in some ways is a function of this manner of life. And so I've emphasized that actually a lot in my own work, the postmodern's who have influenced Christianity are very strong on that two practices. I mean, my take Jordan, there's a hundred ways in to the question of God. There's all kinds of paths, you know. One of them being just that ritual, the body, the moral life is a way in to look at the saints and try to be a saint is a great way in. Jared Manley Hopkins, the great Jesuit poet,

who was a convert under John Henry Newman, so he himself went through this process of discovering the faith. But someone came to him and said, you know, I'm really wrestling with belief in God. And he said, give alms. He didn't provide an argument or proof. He said, give alms. Where he didn't provide an argument or a proof, he said, do something. And of course, if you play a whole thing out, I mean, if God is love, that's what God is, then performing an act of love

gets you closer to God than almost anything else. And so the gifting of alms can lead you into that sacred space. Now, the quest thing mind, I mean, then wants to ask all kinds of questions about it and ground it. So, you know, Fida's Quarant's intellectual of Ansel might faith seeking understanding. That's where theology, philosophy will come in.

Well, you know, when I've been talking to my audiences practically about certain elements of, let's say, Judeo-Christian fundamental belief, so. I spent, I think, two and a half hours, the first biblical lecture I did on the first sentence of Genesis, and then tried to take the opening chapters apart in great detail. But it's a very interesting proposition from a psychological and philosophical perspective in Genesis. I mean, I look at it sort of technically, in some sense, as a statement about the nature of being. I mean, what Genesis reveals to me is that there has to be a structure to encounter possibility, or that there is a structure that encounters possibility. That's part of that's built into reality itself.

And that structure is God the Father, and that structure uses a process, and the process is the logos, and the logos is something like courageous, truthful communication. It's the word, but it's much more than that. And it uses that to encounter this potential and to generate order. And it seems to me that that's psychologically akin to what human beings do with their own consciousness. You know, the new atheist types and the materialist scientists tend to consider human beings deterministic organisms, but my understanding of neuropsychology is that

The only time that we are deterministic organisms is when Circuits for specific tasks have been built up through lengthy practice and can be run automatically and much of the time in our lives And I talked to my audience is about this What we do is we wake up in the morning, our consciousness reappears on the plane of being, let's say, and what we face in front of us is an unstructured and potential filled chaos. And our consciousness determines the manner in which that potential transforms itself into the actuality of order, into the present and the past.

And I think everyone understands that. We treat each other that way. We treat ourselves as if we are responsible for what we bring into existence. That's part of our moral responsibility. We treat each other as if that's part of what makes us worthwhile as creatures, right? That's part of our value. We treat ourselves as if the nature of what we bring into being is determined by our choices between good and evil. And we treat other people the same way. Like you can't have a

friendship with someone. If you don't believe that they have that power of choice and that capacity for morality, you don't have any respect for them and they won't interact with you. And so you can't found a friendship on that, and you can't found a family, and you can't found a society without the fundamental presupposition that individuals, this is another element, of course, of the presupposition in Genesis, that the individual is somehow made in the image of God. If God is that which confronts potential and generates order, and more, because God says too in Genesis, that every time he constructs something that's new and orderly, using the locals, he says, and it was good.

And that's so fascinating to me, because it's repeated so many times because what it implies is that if you confront, if the potential of being is confronted with what's good and truthful and courageous, then what emerges as a consequence is good. And I also believe that to be the case for individuals. If you confront the world in a matter that's came like bitter, incapable of making the proper sacrifices, enraged jealous, outraged out the suffering of existence and its essential unfairness, then you become vengeful and bitter and murderous and genocidal. That seems like no positive way forward. So with the new atheists types, they demolish the metaphysics without really thinking it through, I think. And they leave people with nothing. And the nothing is so empty that it just produces, it really produces pain for people. many, many, many people, including atheists who have been vastly relieved to find some deeper meaning in archaic stories than our culture's predicated.

And, hey, I deal with that. It's people that they feel obligated intellectually to accept the new atheist conclusions, but then their whole soul is rebelling against it. And I would say for obvious reasons. You know what's very interesting to me, Jordan, is I've got a colleague, Chris Ksor, who teaches at LMU. He's written on your stuff. And he said, what Peterson is doing is what the church fathers would have called the topological reading of the scriptures, you know, the four senses. You got the literal historical interpretation. You've got the

allegorical. So it has to do with Jesus. You have the anagogical having to do with the journey to heaven. But the topological they would have seen is the moral sense So what it has to do about our moral lives and I think in our categories say maybe the psychological life, etc And so I think what you just proposed there is a cool, you know, sort of tropological reading of those texts I mean I without denying it. I'd press on the more metaphysical stuff without denying it, I'd press on the more metaphysical stuff. Joseph Rozinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI, did a wonderful meditation on Genesis, saying that to say, I believe in God,

is to say I believe in the primacy of logos over and against mere matter. So over and against a merely materialist view, then what's more metaphysically primordial is logos. And he would stress intelligibility, that the effect that God speaks the world into being means it's marked in every nook and cranny by something like intelligibility, which in turn would ground anything like the sciences, I mean any scientists goes out to meet a world that at least he or she assumes is intelligible, you know, so the intelligibility of things that the rational structure within being is coming from the logus.

But the other thing that I think is really intriguing about the genesis that opening move is the dethroning of all the false claimants to divinity. So all the things that come forth from God, you know, from sun and moon and the animals and so on and so forth, were all things that were worshiped in various cultures in the ancient world. So the author is saying, no, no, no, no, these things are not themselves ultimate. They're not the logos from which all things come. But then the cool twist to me, it's not just a no because, as he Catholics get this, because the way that text is structured, it's liturgically structured. It's like a liturgical procession.

Everything coming forth in this ordered way. At the end of the procession come human beings, right? So at the end of a liturgical procession is the one who will lead the praise. And so the point there, this goes back to Augustine and people like that. The point is none of these things is God, but all these things belong in a chorus of praise of the true God, led by us. So, and there's the human role is to give proper praise to God.

Well, I mean, there's critics, for example, there's a critic in Canada, a well-known environmentalist, David Suzuki, who believes that one of the sins of the Judeo-Christian perspective is that it gave human beings dominion over the world. The German philosopher, what's his name? You have to narrow that one down. Yes.

The phenomenologist. Whistler? No, his student. Heightiger. Heightiger. You know, believe that the Judeo-Christian texts have given us the right to treat the world as if it's produce, you know, their fault. That's getting exactly backwards, isn't it?

Yes, well, it's this deep respect for our fellow creatures as part of the chorus of praise. And the dominion is not domination. I think it's that kind of right ordering. And the thing there is, there's been a lot of interesting studies recently of the temple, the ancient temple, and how it was covered inside now by symbols of the cosmos, you know, animals and plants and planets and stars and so on. The idea being, when Israel gathered for right praise,

it was the whole universe being gathered for right praise. Now, look at that in the Gothic churches. You go up to Notre-Dame and all that. It's not an anthropocentric thing. You've got the planets and stars and astrological signs and animals galore because the cathedral was a successor of the temple, the place of right praise, and it's drawing creation in. See, I think it's much more modernity that is rough on nature and rough on the

animal kingdom. Thomas Aquinas is not. Let me go back to the pre-modern Christian thinkers. They're not anti-nature on the contrary because the biblical vision is salvation is a cosmic reality. God's trying to save all of his creation. That's the Noah story. It's God, the ark is like a floating temple, right? So it's a little microcosm of the right order of things led by the family that's yeah, by a family that's properly ordered and what are they concerned about the animals They're concerned about life that God created That's why the ark becomes a symbol of the church So all the church's are meant to look like ships. You have like nave right the ship the the central aisle of a church

But there meant to be a little floating temple where creation is honored and preserved So I was also interesting to know that in the Noah's story that there's a tremendous emphasis on the idea that like Noah, who is someone who like Adam before the fall walked with God was capable because he could act nobly and courageously and truthfully and also put his family together. He was actually capable of shepherding the complex creation of being in its totality through a period of absolute chaos.

And when I look at the environmental challenges, let's say that we face today, because of the complexity of the nine billion of us or the 9 billion that there will be and the necessity of making sure that everyone has adequate security and shelter and food and freedom. I see that the proper pathway forward to dealing with that is for people to put themselves together and to put their families together and their communities together and that the consequence of that, the natural consequence of that adoption of ultimate responsibility would be the extension of care beyond the immediate, beyond the social even and so that everything does depend, I would say. And this is something I learned

from young, from you, was that far more than we think depends on the orderly progression and care of the soul. All of it depends on it. And you know, when I talk to my audiences, it's so interesting. And I think it might be something that the church is missing if I could be so good. Yeah, go ahead. Well, you know, I've talked to about 150 live audiences now about this sort of thing independent

of all my classroom lectures. And I'll tell you, I tell people, I suggest to people that the really the ancient idea that life is suffering and that it's tainted by malevolence, that there's no more true ideas than that in some base sense. And that that's something that everyone has to contend with. And if you don't contend with it properly, then you become embittered and you work to make things worse. And everyone understands that. Everyone knows that's true. And then I suggest to them that

the proper way out of that isn't the pursuit of material satisfaction or impulse and happiness or rights from the individual perspective, but the adoption of responsibility. And I'll tell you, every single time I talk about that, you can hear a pin drop in the auditorium. Yeah, I believe that. And I think one of the things that the church has failed to communicate properly is that you need a noble goal in life to butchers yourself against its catastrophe. And I mean, he enables a good example of that in the able and and cane story because he devotes himself property to God and things work out for him. I mean, well, they work out for him. It doesn't end for him. Well, it doesn't, but I mean, good is

sometimes defeated by evil, but I mean, obviously he lives a proper and admirable life and it it needs to be communicated to young people. Right, with such a young men. The biblical key is always right praise. And I go right back to Genesis one, is when we give praise to God, drawing all creation together, then our soul becomes ordered properly. And then around us, a kingdom of right order is built up.

In the Catholic Mass, we have that wonderful prayer of the Gloria. We say, glory to God in the highest. And on earth peace to people of good will. And it's like a formula that if I take God in the highest, then there will be peace around me. It's like a condensation of the sermon on the mount because that's exactly what that that sermon seems to see that sermon seems to me and I also believe it to be psychologically true is that it's necessary for you to aim at the highest value that you can conceive of. You know, and that has to have something to do with the amelioration of suffering and the constraint of malevolence.

It'll express itself in a way, naturally. At least as a negative. And then once you concentrate on that and focus on that and decide that that's your primary aim. Then things do start to order themselves around you because everything that you see and do directs itself towards that aim. But that's the, I'd say strangely and uniquely Christian thing is that we say, okay, the God that we're worshiping, the God revealed in the Old Testament, but then finally revealed in Jesus Christ, as I'm looking over my computer screen right now, I'm looking at the crucifix of Jesus, right? So my praise is directed to a God

who is entered radically into suffering, not just physical suffering, but the whole brokenness of the world of stupidity and cruelty and injustice and hatred. That's where God has gone. So the God that I worship is the God who himself is dedicated to the amelioration of suffering or of healing the suffering of the world. But that's the way it's going to express itself in a fallen, conflictual world. Right praise will end up looking like love, looking like love for those who suffer. But see, I think that's the mass to me, the master theme of the whole Bible. Israel always goes wrong without exception when its praise goes wrong. It starts praising the wrong things. No, that's what happens in Exodus when Moses leads the Israelites through the desert, right?

They're in the same position we're in in the modern world where we've escaped a tyranny of sorts, let's say, or we believe we have and entered into this domain of untrammeled freedom, and there's nothing but false idols calling to us from every direction. That's the diversity idea as far as I'm concerned, because unity is certainly as profound moral necessity as diversity. There should be diversity within unity. And I fight it all the time in the Church too, because we've bought into that ideology. And I actually looked at,

it's the oldest problem in philosophy, the one on the many, but all we do today is we completely valorize the many. We never see it shadow side. We denigrate the one and never see its positive side. The one is extraordinarily important. Well, that's part of the death of God. Yeah, I think so. It's the death. It's the death of that over our community. It's the same thing that drives constant, thoughtless criticisms of hierarchy, even though all the biological evidence suggests you can't even

organize your perception without using an ethical hierarchy, because you have to select from all the things that you can choose to look at, those things that you value high enough to attend to. And that's our point about worship, isn't it? What's the highest value to you? Everything else will follow from that. Yes. I've read Paul Tillick, the great Protestant theologian, but he said, all you need to know

about a person you can find out by asking one question. What does he worship? And everyone, of course, I mean Sam Harris worship something, it's a worth ship. What's of highest worth to you? So then your life will be organized accordingly. The biblical idea, it seems to me, is if it's other than God, you will disintegrate on the inside and the society around you will disintegrate. Yes, well, that's where the idea of the logos has been so helpful to be. And partly as

a consequence of reading you, like if the logos is that element of being, let's say, that's aligned in some sense with consciousness that does in fact confront potential and that does cast it into reality as a consequence of ethical choices, then I can't see how it can be otherwise, then that has to be regarded as the ultimate value because it's the thing that creates continually creates the world and new, and you know, we know perfectly well that, you know, you can take the opposite tack. Let's say I don't worship courage and truth in the face of the potential of being, and that I worship instead cowardice and deceit and vengefulness. Well, then we know where that goes. We had the entire 20th century as a template for that whole thing. We went in and the template from every perspective. It mean, every, it's obvious, it's obvious beyond the shadow of

arguable doubt that human beings as individuals are capable of generating something around them that is so akin to hell, even metaphysically speaking, the difference is, is, is, you have to be The difference is, you have to be piquet-une, let's say, to quibble about the difference. And I do think there's something metaphysical about it. I mean, these things that we see on Earth, let's say, seem to me to be reflected continually at deeper and deeper levels of reality. You know, I mean, I don't tend to talk about specifically religious issues because I think that would in some sense compromise that the approach that I'm attempting to take, you know, which is a conciliatory approach in some sense between those who are possessed by

the scientific viewpoint, but curious about the religious viewpoint. But if you abandon those initial presuppositions, the sovereignty of the individual, the necessity for courage in the face of being the moral imperative to struggle uphill with your cross towards the city of God, I mean, people understand these things if they're explained carefully, and they know in their souls that they're true. And yeah, and they're all over the culture. That's been a pre-substantial of mind doing this work, is I tend not to begin with, you know, direct instruction or moral finger wagging, but I tend to begin with something going on in the culture. And you've talked about this. The hero myth is

in practically every move you watch. But the Christian themes are every place. One of the most remarkable to me being, I just saw it on TV the other night, was the Clint Eastwoods Grand Torino. If you want to see the best exemplification, I think, in fiction of what the church fathers meant by the meaning of Jesus' cross, in other words, a move of self-sacrificing love that exposes evil and liberates those who are under the tyranny of evil. That's how they read the cross in a very clever way. Expressing more mythic language, you know, but the ideas are very powerful and they're beautifully exemplified in that movie. The move that Eastwood's character makes it the end. And of course, as he dies, he's in the figure of the Christian Jesus, blessed with this

the point. Right, and he's such an... He's so interesting, too, because he's... I actually made a video where I used a picture of Christ delivering the sermon on the mount, I think, and I put Clint Eastwood's face, I superimposed it on top of his. And it was, for exactly that reason. It was that the reason that that's exemplified in Graham Torino. Yeah. Because I mean, Eastwood in that movie is, he's a very harsh character, very very judgment. He's like, he's like the Christ that comes back in revelations, right?

He's very, very, very judgmental. And he cuts no one a break, except that he actually does, like he does separate the wheat from the chaff. And he's even interestingly in that movie, you know? He ends up being more akin to the foreigners who he hypothetically hates, like the, um, who's the good Samaritan. It's the same idea as the good Samaritan. He becomes more family to these people that he hypothetically hates than to his own children because he guards them as ungrateful and unworthy and whereas these new immigrants are striving to be good people. It's a very interesting movie.

It is. It was a good example of a principal, one of my professors years ago, said, the once integrated Christian vision, let's say a Reformation Enlightenment sort of blew up, and the pieces flew every place. And they're kind of twisted and they're charred and everything. And they've landed here and there. And so as you go through the cultural landscape, you see them all over the place. Well, there's a bit of eschatology or there's Christology or there's the Trinity and so on. But they're usually in distorted form.

So that's a good example of, there's the Christus Victor theory to give it his proper name. The Christ is the victor over sin and death. He's conquered the dark powers and liberated us in the process. There it is, but it's in somewhat distorted form, of course, but that's been the game I played a lot is to try to find these things everywhere. It's so common that it's, well, it isn't merely common, it's universal because, and this is, of course, one of the reasons that I became so deeply interested in archetypes is that

if the story doesn't have an archetypal foundation, then it's not a story. I mean something makes something a story. It's not just a random collection of statements or images and so it has an archetypal structure and or images. And so it has an archetypal structure. And, you know, I think what's happened in the modern world, at least partly, is this fractionation that you've described, but also something that a student once made me think deeply through, she came up and asked me after a class, well, if these archetypal stories are the fundamental element, let's say, of psychobiological reality, then why not just tell the archetypal story over and over again? And I thought, well, first of all, to some degree, that is what cultures did for a long time.

They just repeated the archetypal story. But in our modern culture, what literature seems to do is to take the archetypal story and to bring it closer to the individual. It's like it's brought closer to earth. Almost like the Renaissance paintings brought the divine figures closer to earth, closer to the actual individuals, say, than the broke paintings did. And so you have this meeting place of the divine, the archetype, and the personal, that constitutes something like popular culture.

And there's some utility in that because it reopens a doorway to the presence of what's missing that's been closed by whatever has happened to the church over the last, well, what, 150 years, 200 years, and the accelerating degeneration of the church over the last 200 or 150 to 200 years. So I see it as a good thing, although it is obvious that people understand that it's happening. I explain movies like The Lion King and Sleeping Beauty

and so on to my audiences. And they don't know the, they don't consciously see the Christian symbolism or the Christian symbolism in works like Harry Potter, which is unbelievably deep symbolic structure. I mean, she did that so beautifully. This is a big of true grit when the colon brothers did it and they brought, I'm beautifully brought out these religious themes that were not in the John Wayne version. I saw as a kid. Or even like there was a remake,

Kenneth Brannett of Cinderella, and you say a charming, sentimental story, but it's a deeply crystallological telling, and he got all that and brought that out. I mean, so those are there for sure. I mean, within the Western framework. Well, it seems, it doesn't seem in part look, like I've been accused, let's say,

although I've stopped apologizing for it, I should have stopped long ago of fundamentally speaking to young men. You know, I mean, most people on YouTube are men, so there's a baseline problem. But you know, it seems to me that partly what I'm suggesting to young men is that there really is a enobling heroism about the fundamental Christian vision, which is to accept with gratitude your privileges and your limitations. The privileges, those are talents. You have a responsibility to make the most of them. That's the price you pay for the talents, the obstacles. You're limited being and you pay a price for being and the price is that limitation. And so you have to be grateful in some strange sense for your limitations, maybe the same

way that you're grateful for the idiosyncrasies and peculiarities of the people that you love. And then that you're task, And so it's extraordinarily difficult task. There's no more challenging task than to accept all that, with gratitude and with goodwill toward being and to attempt to work towards making things better than they are, or at least not worse. And people, I understand that, you know? No, for sure.

But see, let me press something here, because I think all that's true from the sort of psychological and human side. The hero's journey and our call to move toward a transcendent moral good, et cetera, to give ourselves for the sake of the other. But see, and that's all there within the Christian and the biblical framework. But see, what I think is really interesting, where the fireworks really start,

is that God has gone out of heroes' journey, you know? So it's not just the story of this human being, Jesus, going heroically to his cross, et cetera, but that strangely, it's Jesus going heroically to his cross, et cetera. But strangely, it's God going heroically to that place. It's God going into dysfunction. And whatever heroism we can summon is predicated upon this primordial grace that was given to us. Because the danger, look, I'm a Catholic.

Catholics like faith and reason. So we like to operate both sides of that divine. So Thomas Aquinas constructing cosmological arguments, well, good. Those are, I think they're fine, but that's from our side of the equation. We're kind of moving our way toward God. But the fireworks start when God moves toward us, God, God acts and grace is operative. The thing I can't manipulate, I can't control. It comes as a gift, you know?

And so at the cross of Jesus, it is Clint Eastwood. So there's a human being imitating this great move and that's indeed what we're called to, to become other Christ. But he's also, if you wanna press it, that's God. That's what God does. God enters into our weird dysfunctional off-kilter world and suppresses evil, awakens our freedom.

And that's when it really gets interesting, you know? Well, it seems to me that this has to do with this theme. I've also popularized about rescuing your dead father from the underworld. Well, you know, if you take on a heavy burden of responsibility, then that changes you. It calls forth from you things that would never be otherwise called forth. It partly because you encounter new things and learn, but also because the demands, the

psychophysiological demands of the confrontation. And we know this biologically, turn on new parts of you that are coded genetically. And you know, there's, there's an immense potential that lurks inside of human beings. And it's, it's a potential of unlimited scope in some sense. And I think that that's alluded to in the idea that there's a relationship between logos, Christ and God and man. And the way that you become closer to God in the literal sense is by adopting that burden because that transforms you into what it is that you could be. And I think that's a, you know, you look, the other thing you said that was really interesting. You talked about the fragmentation of Christianity. And you know, in the old Egyptian story, when Osiris is overthrown by Seth, who's the precursor of Satan etymologically and conceptually. Osiris is willfully blind and Seth is his

evil brother and Seth waits for the opportune moment and he chops Osiris up into pieces and he distributes him all over the kingdom. And so Osiris can't pull himself back together. Like he's still there in nascent form because there's no destroying something that's divine, not permanently, but you can make it very difficult for it to get a act together for some period of time, let's say, and that fragmentation, I think,

is, has occurred in our culture, is the death of God, I think Nietzsche occurred in our culture, is the death of God. I think Nietzsche is wrong about that. I think it's the dismemberment of God and not the death. And something that's dismembered can be remembered. And what we need to do is to remember. And we do remember in our literature and our art and our popular culture, that's all a form of remembering.

But we also remember when we act in a way that works in accordance with our conscience and that sets our soul into a configuration of peace, you know, it's been fascinating. I've had hundreds of, and mostly young men, I would say, come and talk to me after my lectures, and many of them had been in very, very dark places, you know, addicted, alcoholic, suicidal, suicidal, chronic pornography users, incapable of settling into a committed relationship, vengeful, nihilistic, cynical, and also possessed by a kind of inertia that made them immobile during the most vital part of their youth. And, you know, they told me, look, I decided I was going to develop a vision for my life. I was going to imagine what things could be. And then I was going to try to tell the truth,

and I was going to try to act responsibly and not in a praying and public manner but in a manner that began with cleaning up my room, say a fairly humble act. And then comes the kicker and this is one of the things that's kept me going through this entire 150 city tour. They all say and my life is way better. It's like I'm healthy. My job is going well. I've had three promotions. I'm making twice as much money. I've spoken to my father. I haven't talked to him for 10 years. I'm putting my family together. It's like good things are just happening left, right, and center. I mean, I heard amazing stories. You're in touch with the deepest rhythms of reality.

It's an ethical move, but it's a metaphysical move. As you mentioned, the sermon on the Mount of the Lord, I mean, that's how I look at it. It's not just giving, you know, moving ethical recommendations, it's trying to get us aligned to the fundamental nonviolence of things, I mean, the fundamental move of God as he gives rise to the world. And so, of course, your life comes together. Again, right praise gets you online and knits you back together.

That theme to me is really strong in the spiritual tradition of the knitting back together of the splinter itself. It's the coming together of things. Do you, I mean, as a psychotherapist, you deal all the time with this, but like in the scriptures, so you mentioned Satan, you know, Hussatana says the accuser,

and there's a lot to that, but the other great word for the dark powers, the Diabolos, right, the scatterer, the one that divides and separates. And so the demons always speaking in the plural in the New Testament, and Jesus bringing them back to themselves, back to the center. But that's all of us, sinners. I mean, we're all over the place. Our mind and will and passions and

sexuality and body. They're all going different directions. And that is very disorienting for people. It's very confusing and anxiety provoking to be going in all those directions at the same time. Yes, right. And that's what do you want of us Jesus of Nathalie to become to destroy us? You know, I mean, answer is yes, I have come to destroy this disparate reality and knit you back together. So, you know, I can need you for a second because I'm going to ask you about that. My conviction is atheists both old and new, so the Hitchens of Dawkins and Sam Harris today, but then go back to the Feuerbachs and Nietzsche's and company.

They're rebelling quite properly against a false god. What I would characterize as a false god, the god who's posing a threat to our freedom, the god who broods over us in this moralizing and dehumanizing way, the god who I would say is a supreme being among other beings. All of that, I applaud them. I mean, the atheist old and new are rebelling against that. But it's partially because, I think Jung saw this in his own father, who was a Calvinist minister, that we got so bad at proclaiming the true God who is not brooding over our

freedom in this sort of moralizing and oppressive way. He was not competing with our flourishing, but the glory of God to human being fully alive says Irenaeus. That's the biblical idea. The burning bush, the father's love bed is the bush that's on fire, but not consumed. Well, that's the way the true God relates to creation. He makes it beautiful and radiant, but doesn't burn it up. We're like, if so many of the Greek and Roman myths,

when the gods break in, things have to give way, or they're incinerated, or they're destroyed. But the Bible presents this very unique and humanizing view of God. And then culminating in the incarnations, with God becomes one of us without, that's why it's so beautiful to me in those seemingly abstract formulas about the two natures that come together in Jesus

without mixing mingling in confusion. You say, well, that's a lot of these Greek abstractions, but no, that's very powerful, that God and humanity can meet in such a way that humanity is not overwhelmed and destroyed. See, but that's what the atheists quite rightly, old and new, are objecting to, is precisely that false understanding of God. Well, and I've always thought of Nietzsche as a... It's a very disturbing analogy, but I've always thought of Nietzsche playing the same rule as Megets do when they're cleaning out a wound.

You know, I mean, he's a very sophisticated thinker, and to think of Nietzsche as simply as an atheist, I think, is a terrible mistake. I mean, he certainly had plenty of good things to say about Catholicism, about the fact that Catholicism was an anti-diabolical movement that united Europe. You know, under the rubric of a single mode of thought and discipline the European minded. And he also had wonderful things to say about Christ as a figure. You know, he said, well, Nietzsche believed that the only true Christian was Christ, and his criticism was essentially saved for the dogmatic structure of the church. Now, you know, I actually

have more sympathy for Darstiewski, who I think thought more deeply about this than Nietzsche, which is quite a frightening thing to say, because Nietzsche is such a deep thinker. But, you know, in the grand inquisitor, when Christ comes back to Earth and is then arrested by the Savile, by the grand inquisitor of of Sevilla during the Spanish and Cousin, the Grand Inquisitor takes Christ into the cell and tells him why it's necessary for him to be put to death again. He says, the Church has worked diligently to humanize the impossible load that you placed on people. To make it bearable for the common man,

and the last thing we need is someone as perfect as you and terrifying as a consequence, as a judge, because something that perfect is a judge, coming back to mess up all our work. And you know, that's a sympathetic portrayal of Catholicism, I would say, or maybe Orthodox Christianity as well, that it had that merciful element that the demand for perfection was antithetical to.

But then, of course, Dostoevsky has the brilliance to when the Grand Inquisitor leaves hypothetically having sentence Christ to death, he leaves the door open. And I've often thought that that's so true of Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity, Protestantism as well, is that for all their faults and for all the faults that people like Nietzsche and Hitchens and Dawkins, etc. Lay at the feet of these traditions. They at least did preserve the tradition and leave the door open, and that's not an easy thing to do over the course of centuries. I think the institution's deserve a certain amount of sympathy, even though I'm very concerned that they're degenerating and disintegrating in a manner that doesn't look easily

for stallable. Can I let me ask you a quick question about the brothers' care months off because twice in my life, I tried to read it and I think I just got bogged down with the Russian names and stuff. So I failed both times. I got a little further the second time.

But then just about six months ago, I got an audio of it, because I'm in the car all the time in California, I'm going back and forth. And then just about six months ago, I got an audio of it. Because I'm in the car all the time in California, I'm going back and forth. And I just about finished with it. I love it, love it. Finally, it's just, it's sang to me as this guy read the thing, you know?

Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing how powerful it is on audio. It's wonderful, wonderful. How do you read first of all the silence of Christ and the presence of the inquisitor? But then secondly, hit the kiss, the kiss on the lips at the end. You know, so he sits in silence as this great accusation is read, but then kisses him full

on the lips at the end. Well, I think he accepts the accusation. Like, one of the things Jung said about Christ in the Gospels, which I thought was indescribably brilliant, was that Christ, not entirely, but is presented as a figure of mercy. And Jung was wise enough to know that, and he used religious sources for this idea that God rules with two hands, with mercy and with justice, because if it's just mercy, then, well, all is always forgiven and you have new responsibility and you're an eternal infant. But if it's all justice, then look out because every single transgression you commit, you'll

be held to account for in some infinite manner and people are so fallible that Well, you kind of see that happening on Twitter now, you know if you if you make a mistake Of any sort at any point in your life You're you're yeah roasted over the open calls for it and no one can stand that because everyone makes mistakes And so there has to be this balance between mercy and justice. You regarded Christ's return in revelation as psychologically necessary because any figure of perfection has this element of the judge because any ideal is a judge. Yeah. And so, you can't bracket that in the name of, of,

because the master category is love, right? And not to be sentimental about it. Love means to will the good of the other. So that always has a judge mental to mention. Of course it does, because if you have a child or a friend or yourself, it's like, and I felt this when I was a psychotherapist practicing as a psychotherapist, I mean, Roger said, well, you had to have unconditional love for your client. And I thought, no, I have unconditional, positive regard for the part of my client that's striving toward the light. And I make co-enemy with that part against the part that's trying to drag that person down. And that's a, can I tell you that an entire generation of Catholic priests was formed

under the Rogerian assumption because that's what my generation got. Now I mean, I learned things from Rogers and that whole, me too, it works in a way when I was doing pastoral ministry and counseling early on as a young priest, you know, that whole idea of just kind of mirroring back to someone what they're saying and giving them the, I mean, I get it, I get it, but I agree with you. There's a severe danger in that. If that's all we're doing with people, we're not moving them in the manner of a spiritual teacher. I just student years ago said to me, what we're missing from the church is Yoda on our shoulders. You know, he meant Yoda on the shoulders of Luke Skywalker, instructing him and pressing him

and telling him what he's doing wrong and how to get going, you know, that we were all Rogerians. We just were unconditionally positive regarding everybody. Well, it's a great compliment. See, the other thing that's made me popular among young people, this is so perverse. I have a hard time believing any of it, really. I mean, the first thing that I have a hard time believing

is that I can attract audiences of 5,000 people and tell them that the problem with their lives is that they're not bearing nearly enough responsibility and that's where they're going to find the meaning that sustains the so pretty rough message. And the second thing is especially with young people because the message has been 5th for 50 years and this is part of the humanists from the 1960s is, well you're okay the way you are. And I think there isn't anything more damning that you can tell a young person that,

well, you're okay the way you are, especially if they're suffering and nihilistic. It's like, well, you're okay the other way. I want to get out of the state. That's right. They want to crawl right out of their skin and so you tell them instead, no, look, man, you don't know anything.

You're barely beginning. You're suffering because, in a sense, because you are steeped in sin to an almost unimaginable degree. And I'm saying that compassionately, judgmentally, and that if you want to put your life together, you have to start small and you have to be careful and awake. And if you do it carefully, then you can eliminate these flaws in your character that no one should be celebrating. And then people light up when you tell them that. They're so strange. It was a real pastoral failure on the part of the church as I was coming of age because we were

reacting against maybe a hyper stress on sin. So my parents' generation probably got that, especially sexual sin. So I understand that there was a hyper reaction, but that is exactly the problem. As you ended up with a generation of Catholics, it felt like, okay, God is love, I'm okay, everything will be fine. And there's no energy, there's no directionality, there's no sense of purpose, there's no sense of spiritual struggle. There's no evil. Right, there's no real problem with your dealing with situations like Nazi Germany. Right, right, but no, that was a huge pastoral failure.

One was intellectual as coming of age. We became very deeply anti-intellectual and this problem of a hyper kind of rajarianization of our pastoral practice. I like Roger so a lot because one of the things that Roger's really taught me to do was to listen, you know, like his advice about listening and then restating to people what you heard. So that they agree with you that that's unbelievably powerful because it does force you to listen. But Rogers was a

seminarian and he did dispense with the idea of evil and the devil fundamentally. And he fell into the trap of Rousseau where you know the idea was that people were basically good. And that's just, it's such a devaluation of people to say that they're basically good, because it's clearly the case that people have an unbelievable capacity for malevolence. That, and to me, that's, that's heartening, you know? Because again, I can talk to my audience

and I can say, look, all of you guys just, you lay a sit on edge of your bed and you think about all the things that you're doing wrong, that you know that you're doing wrong, the way that you're leading yourself and other people astray. Those things will come to your mind momentarily and imagine briefly where that would take you if you allowed your imagination to take you to where it could in its depths. And everyone nods their head because they bloody well know.

And I say, imagine just for a moment that if you have that capacity for absolute mayhem and malevolence, that the opposite is also true because if there is that darkness and that evil, then obviously the opposite also exists. And then it's also possible to make a case for people, to people that they can believe that good has the capability of triumphant over evil. But you don't do that by minimizing evil. You do it by maximizing evil.

That's right. I would say part of spiritual direction is helping people see what they're really capable of. And I mean, in the negative sense, helping people to see that they're really capable of. And I mean that in the negative sense, helping people to see, like, I'm really capable of some really wicked business. And if I'm hiding from that all the time, I'm suppressing it all the time.

That's not the thing, because from now a religious standpoint, you wanna say, Christ goes all the way down. Now that's the descent and the healthy, but that happens in us. He goes all the way down in me to the bottom of my dysfunction. And people like Dr. Ostewski are really good at showing that to much of life. Yes, that's for sure.

But if we don't do that spiritually, then we're not understanding the cross, right? Our standing redemption, salvation that we're healed by this downward journey of the Son of God. But he goes with us. There's Dante now. There's the journey downward through all the levels of our dysfunction. Till you find, I think he's dead right about that, you find some originating dysfunction. So the Satan who's wings beat the air and create the atmosphere of hell, there's something in me that's generating all the different levels of dysfunction.

But until I find that, I'm not going to solve it. I've got to go all the way down. In Fernow's right, there's just like there's a hierarchy of good, there's a hierarchy of evil. I mean, Dante places the betrayers at the bottom with Satan. And I think that's true because one of the fundamental necessities of positive interpersonal existence, even with yourself, much less or let alone other people, is trust, like essential trust. And it's a form of courage.

Another thing I talked to my audience is about is trust because like, we tend in our society to worship naive trust by making the claim that people are basically good. And the problem with that, and this is what entices so many young people into that nihilistic atheism is that they're taught this idea. And then they're betrayed very badly by themselves

or by some other person. And that's the death of innocence. And so then they go from naivety to cynicism. And cynicism is actually an improvement over naivety. But it's not the end. And then they don't know that because the next step is to trust as a consequence of courage and to say, look, I'm going to extend my hand once again to myself or to my friend or to my

family member despite the fact that I've already been betrayed and hurt. Because by extending that hand again, I allow the person the possibility of redemption and I open up a space for us to rekindle a productive relationship. But that's predicated on courage and not naivety. I know that it's like stretching out a hand to a dog that's frightened and barking and looking like it's going to bite. It's still the best way if you're careful to establish peace, let's say, with that animal. And the problem with the betrayers is that they take trust, which is the most fundamental necessity for interpersonal relationships.

And then they violate the very principle of trust. It undermines everything. And so- And that's why they're at the bottom of hell. That's why- That's why Brutus and Judas are there. It reminds me of that story of Francis in the Wolf of Gubio. Francis, you know, it's like a dream at story. Francis reaching out to the animal that's been threatening the town

and frightening everybody. But Francis has the trust to reach out to the animal and they tames it and then makes a deal. If you feed the animal, then he won't harm you and so on. But it doesn't yung say a lot of dreams and animals function that way of dimensions of ourselves that we're kind of in. Well, that's a dream for sure. Because what it means is, there's a lot of dreams and animals functioning that way of dimensions of ourselves that we're kind of aware of. Well, that's a dream for sure because what it means is that, you know, there's a part of you that's ravenous and malevolent and not being fed properly.

Right, and that's often because you're not attending to it. You're putting it in a blind corner and it's acting out because it demands recognition. And like people do this with their own, with the power that gives them integrity. You know, I've had clients, and I would say they were more often female than male, who had this particular problem, but who had a very acute and judgmental intelligence,

very, very bright people. But they were also unbelievably agreeable. And so their intelligence would report to them something that was not positive about someone. You know, it would see around a corner, it would see into a hidden motivation and reveal a negative truth. And the person temperamentally was so shocked by the revelation that instead of regarding it as a genuine insight, they felt that there was something wrong with them for thinking

that way. And then that's the same thing as keeping that ravenous wolf unfed. It's like the particular client I'm thinking about, I spent hours talking to her about what she thought about people because she was a very pleasant person and it caused her a lot of trouble. She was far too much mercy and not nearly enough justice and God, her insights into the malevolent motivations of people were unbelievably accurate and deep. But she was almost completely incapable of allowing that to be real. You have to be nice. We have, we mentioned the colon brothers earlier, their remake of True Grit. Do you remember the young girl in that who's just, she's seized by justice.

She wants to get revenge because her father was killed. Then she just, and people, people are dying around her, corpses are piling up because she's just going to get what she wants. And then of course, she's bit by the snake, which has a certain archetypal overtone, and she loses her arm, you know. But she's carried, after the snake bite, she's carried in the two arms of Rooster, Cogburn, you know, who's a law man, he's a man of justice, but you find out that he's he's also a man of mercy He's a man of of deep human connection and

The the story is prefaced by the line. There's only one thing in the world that's truly free And that's the grace of God and I just thought it's that wonderful It's that the grace of God is not just mercy and not just justice. It's the two arms of it She ends up she's all justice. So the one arms missing, Brewster's got the two arms able to carry her, you know? But I think that's what we've been missing a lot in the church is the two arms.

We become just too much for mercy church, you know. Well, I don't, that's what I think of it. I don't think that you guys, ask enough of your people. You're you're not you're not giving them hell Yeah, no, I think there's something right about that and that's the Yoda on your shoulder So he's there's someone who's kind of pushing me and telling me and teaching me and bringing me on that downward journey like The Virgil move that you're gonna accompany this person all the way down now importance, here's like Pope Francis is really good because a company met and the church is a field hospital. He says, for people deeply wounded, that's really

right. And we got to accompany people all the way down. My generation got, I think, a very superficial sort of, you know, everything's okay. God is love and you'll be fine. But that led to a lot of drift. And see, when my generation came of age and we got hit by life, I can testify. There to a lot of drift. And see, when my generation came of age, and we got hit by life, I can testify, there's a lot of my classmates, they left religion in a heartbeat because we got a very superficial, childish, one-sided approach. But then life hits all of us inevitably. And the religion had nothing for them. Right, right. Well, and that's exactly when it's necessary. Yeah. And, you know, love is a terrible thing. Right. It's demanding. You know, if you love your children, you, you don't let them get away with anything. Right. You call them on their transgressions and that's very, I remember, you know, this situation

with my son when he was about four or five and I really have a really good relationship with my son. I've always assumed that he had the capability to make intelligent judgments and expected him to do so from a very early age. And when he was four, he was talking to me, and I thought he was lying to me. And I didn't know because I couldn't tell, but that internal Damon was saying, there's something that's not right here and I wasn't going to let him get away with it because I couldn't let him learn that it was acceptable to do that or

that I would put up with it. And so I told him in this weird thing it's kind of like Pharaoh or it's kind of like God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I, kid, here's the deal. I think you're lying to me. And we can't have that, but if you're not, I want you to put up like a tremendous fight here to defend yourself. Because if you're being honest, well then, I want to know that, but I'm not going to back off because I don't believe that what you're saying is true. And so I went after him for a good long while, and it did turn out that he was telling me something that wasn't true, which hardly came as a relief.

But by me, children do that, and it wasn't a surprise to me. But that love is, if you really love someone, you can't tolerate when there less than they could be. It hurts, and so when someone comes into the church and it's all forgiveness, there's no care there. It's like, what the hell are you doing? Look at you. You're addicted. You're hooked on pornography. You cheat on your wife. You're doing a terrible job at work. It's like you don't take care of yourself. It's like, what the hell's wrong with you? It your wife, you're doing a terrible job at work. It's like you're, you don't take care of yourself. It's like, what the hell's wrong with you? It's like, where's the real

you? The person, anyone who is subject to that, as long as it's done with care, you know, and not, I'm better than you, which is a whole different thing. It's like, God, man, you're, you're nothing like you should be. Yeah. And if you don't do that, you're not willing the good of the other. In fact, you're trying to move into an easy space. If I am nice, this person who be nice to me and will all be happy, but that's not right. That's right. It's a no conflict. It's a no conflict conversation. If we know, at the beginning of the inferno, when Dante, you know, he sees the hill with light on it. Oh, there, that's where I need to go.

I know I'm lost. I'm in the wood, but that's where I need to go. Off he goes, but then he's blocked by the three animals, right? That's a wolf and the leopard and the lion, I think. So there's no easy route, that's the point. There's no easy route to that hill. You've got to go down and all the way down. But I think we probably did tell our people

that there was too easy a route, you know. Everything's okay, you're okay, God is love. But then everyone goes. Well God is love and love is nice. Love is harsh and dreadful, right? That's the most beautiful thing. Yeah, that's the thing. Love is harsh and dreadful, right? That's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing. Love is harsh and dreadful.

Right, and they'll find out soon enough that the road is blocked. Everyone does, but then what's the way forward? And there should be spiritual masters in play that know exactly what to do, the virtual move. I know what we gotta do here. We gotta do a searching moral inventory and go all the way down.

No, wait down. Well, and that's the descent before the ascent. Right. And that's a classical, full of man story. It's the story of Exodus. It's part of the reason that people aren't enlightened. If you're going to go up, man, every up is predicated by a down of equivalent magnitude. Right. Because look, if you're going to improve, you're going to discover that you're wrong about something. First, and then to be wrong about something means you're going to fragment.

And it's going to be painful to recognize the fact of that error, to recognize the consequences of that error across your life, to have to reformulate yourself so that that error is no longer acting out as part of your personality in your life. It's an unbelievable dissent. So that's another thing that this is part of the reason why, for all, the respect I have for Joseph Campbell. You know, Campbell says, follow your bliss. And that is certainly not something that Jung said. Because Jung said, you search out what you're most terrified of and what you're most disgusted

by. And the place you least want to go, where you have to bow the lowest. And that's the place where salvation might be found. And that's like, and I believe that's true. And I believe it's terrifying. The pathway to redemption is through recognition of error, not through bliss. Right. It's that that was where Campbell got enamored of a kind of mindless Buddhism.

Yeah, the only way up is down. And that's in all the spiritual teachers. Or go back to origin, you mentioned Exodus. You know, where he says that the Egyptians and the Israelites symbolize the best of us is often enslaved to the worst of us. The Egyptians, the slave masters, represent the worst instincts in us, and the most twisted and dysfunctional aspects of us. And the Israelites symbolized he felt the our creativity, our intelligence,

our courage, all these good things, our friendship. Our willingness to move forward. Yeah, but the best of us is enslaved to the worst of us. And so you gotta come to terms with who are the Egyptians in you, and they're making you do two things. He says, they're making you do two things. He says they're making you build fortified cities for them. So we take the best of ourselves to build fortifications around the worst of ourselves to protect them. And they build monuments. Yeah. So he looked at me. So I mean,

how much of life he says is spent doing those two dysfunctional things defending the worst of ourselves and then building monuments to the worst of ourselves. What if we got free of that and get to the promised land? But I mean, he was the original master of all that psychodynamic reading, I think, of these texts. Well, it's also surprising that so few people know what a multiplicity of readings the Bible has actually, with the spirit. On this goofy fundamentalism, which is a 20th century phenomenon,

the scope, Straal stuff and all that, in America, especially, but in the West, we got hung up on it. You read a gustan who is deeply indebted to origin. You've got these very creative interpretive strategies in place around Genesis, for example. It's not literalism by any means. And we're talking in origin, we're talking in the 3rd century,

in the 20th century, Augustin 4th century. And these are really early figures. Well, these were mystical figures. They were not high to... They were not high to... Right, so yes, we need to recover that, I think, even as Christians, our own biblical interpretive tradition. So what are you hoping for in the coming year for you and for what you're doing?

I'm hoping for them. What would you like to see happen as a consequence of what you're doing? And what do you think you are doing? I mean, you're on this public, I wouldn't call it a crusade, doing. I mean, you're on this public, I wouldn't call it a crusade, but you're engaging with the public in this new way. And it seems to be, it seems to be quite successful. And what do you think it is that you're doing right? And what would you like to see happen as a consequence of that? I think what I'm doing right is beginning with the semi-Navarbi. It's the church father's idea, the seeds of the word,

the seeds of the word are everywhere. Or that's the bits of the fragmented Catholicism that are found in the culture. So I tend to begin with the culture and lead from there. And I think that is more wholesome. So I tend not to begin with a lot of preaching or a moralizing approach, we begin with a cultural approach. And I think that's been more appealing.

I mean, you've wanted to, my ultimate goal is I wanna bring people to faith in Christ in the Catholic Church. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. I'm an evangelizer. But I'm using certain methods to try to draw people to that point. Realizing that there's an awful lot

of obstacles in the way, you know. I'm trying to kick open some doors. I'm trying to, part of it is to help people with their intellectual blocks. There's so many, especially younger people, they're just stuck because certain intellectual objections have occurred to them and they've heard them from their university professors or whatever.

To clear up some of that, to not over some of those obstacles, that's part of it. But then to open up, and I think that's what you're doing too, I mean, open up the richness of the spiritual tradition, because it makes people, it's not just an intellectual feast, it saves your soul, you know, that's what I want to do. I want to help people, you know, your fellow Canadian, Charles Taylor, the great Catholic philosopher,

talks about the buffered self, the self that's caught in this little space, and there's no sense of a link to the transcendent. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to knock holes in the buffered self and let in some light from a higher, you know, dimension of reality. So I mean, ultimately, it's to bring people to salvation, I just say what I want to do. But noxem holds the buffer itself. I want to keep doing that. And I said this, I was an enrollment. I told we're read this month long synod with the pope on young people. And I was elected to go to that synod. And it was interesting. You know, like, what's our strategy for reaching young people? And I said, I think a miracle of providence right now is we have this massive problem of young people leaving, but we have

this new tool of the social media, which we didn't have. I mean, 10 years ago, we couldn't do this. And now we can reach out to young people into their space, because Catholic, we tend to say, what programs can we develop, you know, lecture series that we can develop? Well, people aren't coming to our institutions for all kinds of reasons, but we can sort of move into their space with the social media.

So that's kind of how I see what I'm up to and you know, trying to do. Be nice to see if something could be done with all those beautiful cathedrals. Yeah, well, that's, I wrote about them years ago. I studied in Paris. I know. I studied in Paris and I used to give tours at Notre Dame and I was a doctoral student.

I was a priest, but a doctoral student. And we were told by the tour guides, now don't talk about religion. So we were just meant to talk about how tall the building was and what it was still. But I used it to sermonize, really, to talk about the Christian faith. And I've written a little book on the spirituality of the cathedrals, you know. I'd like to, I'd like to read that.

I mean, is there a decent bibliography in that book? Because I'm really interested in cathedral architecture. No, and I am too. The little, I wrote this years ago. It's a little book of kind of spiritual meditation. So it wouldn't be, you know, with I am too. The little I wrote that's a year ago. It's a little book of kind of spiritual meditation So it wouldn't be you know with a academic apparatus But I read a lot of those books at the time and love the cathedrals too because they're they're just talk about You know like moving into a dream space of the archetypal realities are all over the place

Shart is my favorite place in the world maybe my favorite Covered space in the world is Shard Cathedral. Why, why that cathedral? I don't think anything is richer. I've ever spending a weekend there. I went down from Paris on a Friday, just got a hotel room and I stayed there till Mass on Sunday.

And I made sure I saw everything in it. I walked all around the outside, all through the inside. And my old Testament imagination was so engaged by Shard, you know, because there is your thing about the allegorical. They read the Old Testament in constant relation to Christ, you know, as the fulfillment and the sculpture. And the sculpture is just incomparably beautiful and it's execution.

But then the windows, there are no better windows and their most similar are real medieval windows from the 13th century. Nothing sings to me more, just the way it's situated, the topography of it, you know, you kind of come up to shard, and when you go back behind it, you take the pilgrims route up to it and all of that, the pilgrims journey is implicit there.

But the windows look like, they look like diamonds on a black velvet background. They're like jewels. And it's the shining jewels of the new Jerusalem. So there's the anagogical sense. It's all about the journey to heaven. And then the the labyrinth, which unfortunately has been kind of co-opted by a new AG spirituality, but the original labyrinth that most of the ones we see today imitate is there, it's sharp. Yes, I know. I know. The labyrinth is an amazing thing. Extraordinary. I walked it, walked it several times, and it's a very powerful experience.

Anyway, sharp has all of that in it and more, you know. Yes, well, it's such a shame that these buildings that, you know, you see what happened in Europe, but I don't understand it, is that Europe went through this several hundred years long period of time where beauty was worshiped in a profound way, and you see them manifested in the construction of these great cathedrals that took centuries to build, and these people were were, well the brick layer wasn't just laying bricks, the brick layer was building a cathedral to go on. Which is how our lives should be, right? And every little thing that we do should be imbued with that higher vision, which is possible,

if you have that higher vision. And you know, the contribution of that vision to Europe and to world culture is absolutely priceless. I mean, people make pilgrimages from all over the world to view these insanely beautiful and complex buildings and they were driven by a spirit that was, well, hopefully uncconquerable, but certainly of sufficient potency even in a fundamentally atheistic age to pull people in for reasons they don't really even understand, just the sheer awe at the daring of the architects.

And to talk about a door or window transcendent, and that's the way of the architects. And it talked about a door or window of a transcendent. And that's the way of punching through the buffered self, those cathedrals. And don't get me started on church architecture the last, you know, like 40, 50 years. When we largely adopted a kind of brutalist modernism within catholicism and built, what vaults are called, the great barns, you know,

these big spaces. And we wonder, you know, why are the young people leaving in droves? The church building itself didn't sing to them in any way, which they used to do. Even the imitation gothic buildings from the 1930s. But man, a young Catholic coming of Asia that time was, I mean, look at the, I'm just surrounded

by the imagery of the faith and the whole narrative of salvation. I was just talking about that. Well, then the incarnation of the faith and the whole narrative of salvation. And I was just talking about... Well, and the incarnation of the song in stone. You know, you talked about part of the goal of salvation, let's say, to bring everything together, to have everything come together in a kind of integrity and with a kind of integrity in any union.

And of course, music portrays that better than anything else as far as I'm concerned. And those cathedrals were symphonies in stone. And so then they portrayed or, contextually, exactly what music attempts to portray orally. And it works. I mean, it works. Oh gosh, yeah. It works for someone who has no belief. Right, absolutely. And it's a big of a cliche to say it, but the summa of a coinist and the divine comedy of Dante

are like that. They have that same kind of quality of integration and like the whole of life being on display. And that's part of what fell apart. That we needed the critique of enlightenment for sure. I mean, I get it. We needed that in a lot of different ways. But sadly, often that critique got overstated, and we, baby bathwater phenomenon, and a lot

of the integrity was compromised. How do you keep the critique without throwing out the substance? You know, it's been one of the struggles. And much of the theology of the last couple hundred years has been so conditioned by the enlightenment criticism. I mean, I get it and take it in for sure, but don't so condition your theology by that critique

that you lose all this stuff that we're talking about now that has the soul-transforming power. Well, that's it. You know, it seems to me that it's, and this is so necessary, is that there's something what's required is a re-emphasis on the potential nobility of the human being

and the moral responsibility to make that nobility a reality. We don't even talk about words like that. Like I use the word nobility in my lectures, and it's such an archaic word. It's like we should have a noble goal. It's like, who? What child is told that now?

Yeah, no. And we're built for nobility. Well, I mean, you're a psychotherapist, obviously, but it seems to me that we're so concerned about people's feelings and that the feelings getting hurt or getting repressed or something that were afraid, if we use that language of a noble aspiration or come on, you can do better or a K, you've got a serious problem, that it'll awaken such negative feelings, leading eventually to, you know, self-mutilation or suicide at the limit, that we're so afraid of that, that it'll awaken such negative feelings, leading eventually to self-mutilation or suicide at the limit.

They were so afraid of that that we're reluctant to use the language of nobility. Yes, well, we're afraid of hurting people's feelings in the present and willing to absolutely sacrifice their well-being in the future. And that's the sign of a very immature and unwise culture because the reverse should be the case. You know, it's like, look, you said already there's no up without down. And that initial conversation, when you lay things bare and you put everything out on the table and you discuss what the problems are and maybe the potential solutions.

Man, that's a rough conversation. You know, it's almost more than people can bear, but if it's a discussion of reality, well, they're already bearing it and at least placing it on the table indicates that, well, that there's someone who's willing to listen and that it isn't so terrible that like Voldemort can't be named. Right. You know, that's been exactly my argument. I alluded to it earlier that when you say, oh, we got too much for people to take. See, but life is going to force itself on them.

Life will force them into this. And then there won't be any wisdom or guide to help them with it. So if we say, look, I'm so concerned about sparing people's feelings, heck, life doesn't care about your feelings or nature doesn't care about your feelings. Well, it's kind of the things I learned from you. He was very, very, and I think this is a psychotherapeutic truism is that if you're going to confront a monster and you most certainly are, then you do it at a time and place of your choosing.

Because otherwise it waits until you're at your weakest and most vulnerable and then it attacks. And so there is no monster-free pathway forward. No, that's right. To prepare as a knight of Christ, let's say, so that when it comes, you're there, or in fact, confronting it at its weakest point, or you cower and you wait, and it devours you. And those are your options.

And we don't have the wisdom of the kind of pessimism that enables us to view life that way. We think, well, if we're careful and we're quiet, well, the monster will avoid us completely and everyone knows that's a lie. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Do you find this? Because sometimes when I use this language, people say, well, yeah, that's great for the young men, but the young ladies don't respond to it. But years ago, my niece, who's now, she's what, almost 30, I guess, when she was about 17, they took her on one of these, these nature things, you know, where they took the kids out into the woods and they had to hike and they had to build their own campfire.

And then they had to afford streams and they had, you know, it's one of these really demanding things where they were up against nature and up against life. Manage, she come back utterly transformed as a human being in a way that religion had never done. She'd the Catholic all her life gone to mass, her uncle's a bishop There's nothing in in our faith that changed her the way that experience clearly changed her. There's a serious that changed her the way that experience clearly changed her. There's a serious conversation to be had with young women. You know, I will ask me a question on my Q&A this month. She said that her friends are really down on her because she claims to not be a feminist,

but even more importantly, because she wants to have children. And they're telling her that only an evil and cruel person would bring a child into a world this terrible and worse to do the damage to the planet that that child will inevitably do. And the people are very serious about this and they're very hard on young women. And like I always think of the piety, you know, because I kind of think of it as the Christian equivalent of the crucifix. You have Mary there with her broken son in her arms.

I think that the great adventure for women at least in part, this is the maternal adventure, is to bring a child into the world, knowing full well that the consequences, the consequence is a crucifixion like brokenness, and that it's still a mark of faith in the possibilities of being to participate in that, and not to hide from it, and to say, well, despite everything, I'm going to act out my faith in life and in the possibilities of being, and I'm going to bring someone into the world who will be a net force for good rather than evil. And that's my moral obligation. And I think to present that to young women as a major part of the adventure of their life, which is certainly the truth, is something that's attractive

to far more of them than would be likely to admit it in today's time and age. Yeah, I'm glad to use the word faith there because just a couple days ago we had the Feast of St. Joseph, you know, and Joseph in the New Testament is like Abraham in the Old Testament, he's the paradigmatic person of faith, right? So I was talking to a group of high school kids and I said, okay, listen to me, everybody. I know you're gonna hear this from your professors in college and you probably hear it already that faith means, being uncritical and you accept any old nonsense

on the basis of no evidence that it's superstition. And I just said, look, we're against that. And I was speaking, I as a Catholic faith and reason. We don't want anything subrational, anything that it's a lie and you know it, that's irresponsible. Anything that's stupid and you know it, it's irresponsible to accept it.

So that's not faith, you know, but I said, what close to what you just said, faith in the Bible is this willingness to risk under the providence of God, some great adventure. Yeah, that's exactly right. Here's Joseph, you know, that's a great phrase. Yeah, no, I think that's it.

And that's what faith means in the Bible. It doesn't mean, oh, I'm an idiot and just tell me any old nonsense and I'll believe it. It means that adventure. It's that's the other thing is that one of the things I really learned from reading the Abrahamic stories is that the fundamental call

is to, is it called to adventure? Not to ease or to happiness and even the adventure, the part of the relationship with God that's part of that adventure is wrestling with God. I mean, that's what Israel itself means. It's another aspect of that strange element of belief is like, what does it mean to believe? Well, it means to adopt this moral burden, but it also means to wrestle with God, right? And not to blindly accept preposterous blantishments that no one with any sense would ever swallow. Right, but I think we've been, again, pretty bad at propagating that. If the new atheists have got an awful lot of traction with that idea that religious people are just sort of naive and superstitious and uncritical, then we haven't explained very well what we mean by faith.

No, we certainly haven't explained the element of it that's associated with courage. No, right. And then under the guidance of a spiritual master that will help you through that and push you toward the edge and help you navigate those waters. And that's Don take out that. All of our great spiritual teachers have it. But we've not been good at that in my judgment, you know. Well, maybe we'll learn before it's too late. That would be nice. I guess I should probably stop. We've gone for about 90 minutes.

Oh my gosh, we have gone for one time. It was really a pleasure talking with you. Yeah, I loved it, Jordan. Thank you very much. I just delighted. I'd like to have another conversation, a darker one I would say. I've been reading a book recently.

Let me just find the name of it here. Just give me one second. Ah, well, I'm not having the luck. Oh yes, here we go. Have you read in the closet of the Vatican? Oh, okay, I did, yeah, I did read. It's a bad book. But I mean, well, let's, we can here we go. Have you read in the closet of the Vatican? Oh, okay, I did read. It's a bad book. But I mean, well, let's, we can talk about it.

I'd be happy to. I would like to have a conversation about it. I'm more prepared for it because I don't think I am prepared for it enough yet. I did read it because I figured everybody would be talking about it. And it's, it's a bad book in many ways, meaning I think it's poorly researched and all that.

But, sure, let's talk about it. All right. All right. Well, let's call it a date. All right. All right. Great. Thank you for having me on. Well, thank you for coming on and we'll get this up and out as soon as possible, both in YouTube and audio forum. Nice. And I guess we'll see what the consequences are.

We'll see. You do find out on YouTube pretty quickly. You do. More power to you as far as I'm concerned and and thank you very much for spending the time speaking with me today. Yeah. God bless you. Thanks. Bye-bye. If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up dad's books, maps of meaning, the architecture of belief, or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life, and Antidote to Chaos. Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B Peterson podcast. See JordanB Peterson.com for audio, e-book, and text links, or pick up the books at your

favorite bookseller. I really hope you enjoyed this podcast. If you did, please leave a rating at Apple Podcasts, a comment or review, or share this episode with a friend. Next week, podcast is going to be the first in a series of three in a row. It's a surprise, though. We'll talk to you next week, have a wonderful day. Follow me on my YouTube channel, Jordan B. Peterson, on Twitter, at Jordan B. Peterson, on Facebook, at Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, and at Instagram at Jordan.b. Peterson. Details on this show, access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events, and my list of recommended books can be found on my website,

JordanB. Peterson.com. My online writing programs designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand themselves in the present, and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future can be found at selfauthoring.com. That's selfauthoring.com. From the Westwood One Podcast Network. You