The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Jordan and Tammy

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

As an alternative for those who would rather listen ad-free, sign up for a premium subscription to receive the following:*All JBP Podcast episodes ad-free*Monthly Ask-Me-Anything episodes (and the ability to ask questions)*Presale access to events*Premium, detailed show notes for future episodesSign up here:https://jordanbpeterson.supercast.comOver the course of 30 years, Jordan and Tammy Peterson have built an incredibly strong relationship. Hard work and negotiation have been key in taking their compatible (and not-so-compatible) traits and molding them into a stable marriage, all the while raising two kids.Through expected ups and downs to more challenging circumstances, their commitment to one another has always managed to shine through. We hope you enjoy this brief exploration of their relationship.For more information on how each Jordan and Tammy’s personalities played a role, check out Jordan & Tammy Peterson's Understand Myself Couples Report:https://youtu.be/LQwP5dIBgiM

Welcome to episode 237 of the Jordan V. Peterson podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson. Episode 237, we are doing away with the seasons. I never liked seasons anyway. Episode number makes more sense. The Peterson's are in road island. I'm currently recording this intro from backstage before dad's show. It's been so fun. We're all doing really well. This is a compilation episode on my parents' relationship. After 30 years of marriage, my parents have built an incredible relationship. One based on love, of course, but also good communication and lots of self-work. I can't stress the value of negotiation

enough as long as it's done in good faith. And that goes for everyone navigating a relationship. If you want, you can listen to the episode that was just released right before this one. On my parents understand myself, couples report. If you want to understand how their personalities play a role in building and maintaining a successful marriage. If you enjoy this episode, or at least learn something, please subscribe. And if you don't want to hear me read ads, please visit jordanbeepeterson.supercast.com if you want to sign up for an ad free experience.

It'll switch your regular podcast to the ad free version automatically on whatever platform you use. It's easy and just $10 a month or $100 a year. I hope you enjoy this episode. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing know, because this is built into marital vows. I'm not leaving ever no matter what. It's like, okay, well, that definitely puts a boundary around our arguments, right? Because I can't say every time you manifest one of your flaws, which you're likely to do just as often as me, well, enough of this. It's like, that's horrible, man. If your whole life is, well, every time you get out of line, I'm out of here. It's like, how the hell are you? First of all, you're not going to admit

to ever doing anything wrong. Second, you're going to be on your, you're like a scared cat, the entire relationship, because, well, who knows, it could just come to an end at any moment. It's like, you know, people say, well, if the possibility of divorce is open, it makes you free. It's like, yeah, that's what you want know, people say, well, if the possibility of divorce is open, it makes you free.

It's like, yeah, that's what you want. You want to be free, eh? Really? Really? So you can't predict anything. That's what you're after. It's a vow. And it says, look, I know that you're trouble.

Me too. So we won't leave no matter what happens. Well, that's a hell of a vow, but that's why it's a vow, right? That's why you take it in front of a bunch of people. That's why it's supposed to be a sacred act. It's like, what's the alternative? What's the alternative? Everything is mutable and changeable at any moment. Well, go ahead. You live your life like that and see what you're like when you're 50. Jesus, it's dismal. Two or three divorces, your family's fragmented, you've got no continuity of narrative. And it's not good for the kids, not by any stretch of the imagination.

And so it's a form of voluntary enslavement, I suppose, but it's also equivalent to the adoption of a responsibility. And there's more to it than that. If you can't run away, then you can solve your problems. Because it might be, okay, well, I'm stuck with you. So how about we fix things? Because the alternative is we're gonna be in a boxing match for the next 40 years.

That's the alternative. So, and you think you're gonna fix problems without something like that hanging over your head? There isn't a chance. You'll just avoid them because that's what people do. It's really hard to solve problems, especially in a relationship. We're having a fight and I find out that it's because you're abused by your uncle when you were five or some goddamn thing.

It's very frequent that sort of thing happens. The partner you're part in is manifesting some weird anomalous behavior. You just can't make heads or tails of it. It doesn't seem related to what you're doing at all. They don't want to talk about it. And so as soon as you bring it up, they get mad. Then you bring it up again. They even get madder and they tell you that you're not going to talk about that or they're

going to leave. And so maybe you're really, really persistent because you're kind of a son of a bitch. And then they break down and cry, you know. And then they have this horrible memory that comes flooding forward that's completely, you don't know what to do with it, and then you have to sort it out. So you think you're gonna do that

unless there's a good reason? You have to know, we better start this out, and we're gonna be carrying it around for the next 40 years. That maybe is enough motivation, so you'll actually try hard to solve a problem. It's a lot easier to say, well, sorry, we're not going there. But then good, you'll have it every day, every day, every goddamn day for the rest of your life.

See, there's some additional problems with divorce that people don't really grasp when they're young. Like, the idea that you can be divorced once you have children, that's kind of a stupid idea, because you can be divorced once you have children? That's kind of a stupid idea, because you can't. You can find a limited substitute for your initial freedom. But if you have kids and you try to get divorced, the probability that that's gonna demolish your life is very, very high.

First of all, it's incredibly expensive. So one or both of you is going to come out of that poor. And your market value has declined. Let's say you're the woman who takes the kids. Your market value has declined radically. You're going to be poorer. The man, he's just a screwed because he is now an indentured servant, and there's no escape from it.

So it's not so bad if you can negotiate a peaceful separation and some people can, but lots of times if you have a terrible relationship, it's not like negotiating a peaceful separation is all that easy. But if you're at each other's throats, good luck to you. I think it's roughly equivalent to having non-fatal cancer. It is not pleasant. It's a 10-year process, 15-year process. It'll cost you $250,000 and it'll tear a big chunk out of your life. And also it will really disrupt your relationship with your kids. And you know, you bring kids into a step-parent

family. They do not do as well. Step parents are not as good parents as biological parents, and the data on that is clear. Now, obviously, there are exceptions, because there are terrible biological parents, and there are wonderful step parents. But if you look in aggregate, it's not that easy to care for children.

You need everything you can binding you to them. And if there's someone else's children Mostly they get in the way of the person that you love right Well, if I'm let's say you have a child I'll be right out. Let's say you have a child and I want to go out with you Every second you spend with that child is the second you don't spend with me and And there's gonna be a price for that. I'm not going to be happy about that. And if I have a child, you're gonna feel exactly the same way.

You might say, well, no, I love children. It's like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure you do. I doubt it. You might love your child. And, you know, it's pretty specific the way that people love children. So, and the rate of abuse for kids in step-parent families is way higher than it is in biological families.

There's not even any comparison. When did you meet dad? I was eight years old. He moved on to the street when I was, when he was seven, I guess, because he's a year younger than me. He lived right across the street in an orange house. His dad was a teacher at the elementary school and George was this very skinny little kid. He was a skinny little sandy herred. He had straight sandy hair.

He had straight hair when he was little? He had straight hair. He didn't curl till he was in puberty. Same with my son, right? Same with Julian. Julian has curly hair. Julian's hair. It didn't curl till he was in puberty. Same with my son, right? Same with Julian. Julian has curly hair. Julian's hair. Well, it's a bit curly, but he never had any curl until he went through puberty. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah, I met George when he was eight, seven, eight, when I was eight. And we did things that kids do. We played games on the street. We played baseball in the empty lots that were behind our house. We lived right on the edge of town and he was in the same grade as me, so we hang out with some of the kids at school too. And I was very good friends with him, you know, until grade seven when I matured and he didn't because boys don't mature as fast as girls.

He was also younger, right? And he was a year younger. So I left him to his group of friends and I went on with my group of friends. And we didn't really hang out again until high school, until late in high school. And I was actually going out with another fellow, but I wanted Jordan to be my grad escort because he was my best friend. And so my boyfriend had to go away around graduation. So I asked Jordan to be my escort and he said yes. So that was our first date. And that was pretty cool. He didn't spend it at any time with me though.

He spent time with his friends at graduation. Yeah, he was still, well, he was a young guy. He was probably nervous. He was probably nervous too. Yep. He was probably nervous. OK, so what happened in university? Where'd you go?

First of all, I went to Edmonton. And that was, you know, a good six hours away from home. So it was away from home. Where is Fairview? It's Fairview is where you guys met. Yeah, it's far up in Alberta. It's in Northern Alberta. So it's, you know, six hour drive north of Edmonton, near an hour from the BC border.

So it's nearly into British Columbia. It's in, it's on the prairie, so it's a, you can see, we could see 40 miles from the hill in our town. Our town was called Fairview, and if you drove up on the hill west of town and looked, you could see communities, lights from communities at night that were 45 or 50 miles away. You would just see a string of lights like a string of pearls. It was a beautiful place and you know the, you could see so far that the stars would come down and then you would see the lights of the towns. So you could see the sky and the ground meet in this little cascade of light.

It was a beautiful place. That's nothing like Toronto. No, but you know, when we moved to Boston, when George was at Harvard and when Dueling was born in Boston, you were too when we moved there. We went to the ocean every weekend, and that kind of reminded me of the prairie because I could see so far. And so that really, in a way, although it was the ocean, it reminded me of home.

And there's wind at the ocean, and there's lots of wind in the prairies. So in some ways, the ocean and the prairies have a lot in common, at least the immense sky that you can get on the prairies is similar to when you go to the beach. I remember the ocean in Boston. Yeah, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. Yeah, I was. George used to build out of sand.

He would drag his foot around and make a house with rooms and you and Julie would play a house playing those games. I can remember that. It would have been like four or five. That was a really good game. Drag your foot and draw a house. And then you can play in like the bedroom or the kitchen of this sand house.

That was a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. So you went to, where did you go to university? I went to university of Alberta for a year, but I didn't want to live in Edmonton. Oh no, let's see. When it first didn't want to live in Edmonton. Oh, no, let's see. When I first, yeah, I went to Edmonton.

I just took one course. I took a psychology course and I worked full time because I didn't quite know what I wanted to study. I was very creative and it was difficult for me to decide on one career. You're open. As really open. And so it was very difficult to hone in on exactly what I wanted to do because everything looked interesting. But driving a bus looked

interesting, you know, as well as, you know, being a painter. So all these things looked interesting. So I took one course and I worked full time. And then I decided, actually, I met someone who was going to McGill and we drove out to Montreal and I went to McGill for a year and I studied arts. So I studied general arts with French and philosophy and English and I really had a good time there. It was really fun to be in Montreal although that was about 1980 and the separatist movement was very hot then and when we arrived in town we arrived in town we'd driven across the country I got food poisoning on the way and they died.

That's a fun trip. Well, when you're living out of a picnic box, you know, sometimes what we didn't have a, we didn't have a lot of ice or anything to keep things cold. So you remember those things? I got Sam and Ella. I remember those things. I got Sam and Ella two years ago in January.

You, oh, and I had Scarlett and she was still in her crib, like young enough that when she wakes up in the morning, I have to go in there and pick her up. And I was so sick. I couldn't move. You were so sick. And I had to get you to come over. Oh, I remember.

Remember to get scarlet up because I had like a fever and I couldn't. Yeah, you were really sick. Yeah, it was like three days of, I thought I was going to die. And then the fourth or fifth day I could eat again and was like, huh, well, that was nasty. But I, that sounds like what you got. I wonder if it was Salmonella. Except for I was sitting in the bush. That's so much worse. and was like, huh, well, that was nasty, but that sounds like what you got. I wonder if it was Salmonella. Except for I was sitting in the bush.

That's so much worse sitting in the bush. Anyway, it wasn't that big deal. I think I had had my ankle replaced, re-replaced then. So I think I was still hopping around. Oh, he's right. I think I was still hopping around. So I wasn't in the bush, but I did have a surgery and ankle.

Okay. Well, I think you went. I think you went. I don't know, man. The bush doesn't sound good either. Anyway, I think the food poisoning. We went, we got to Montreal and I recognized Sherbrook Street. And I said, oh, let's get off here.

So we go down Sherbrook Street. And I'm like this little town girl, right? I'm a rural girl. I lived in Edmonton for a year. But I'm a little, and we down Sherbrook Street and I'm like this little town girl right I'm a rural girl I lived in Edmonton for a year but I'm a little and we down Sherbrook Street and I see this guy walking down the street and he's got on leather shorts and a leather vest and that's about all you know and and boots on and I was just complete my eyes were just I was just glued to this guy I couldn't believe what I on and I was just complete. My eyes were just, I was just glued to this guy. I couldn't believe what I saw.

And I thought, wow, I've, you know, I've finally moved somewhere, we're something's happening. And then we stopped to the light. The light was red and the car in front of us turned right, right into the park car inside of, and I was just like, what kind of places this? You could go to a bar and you could carry your drinks around. You could stand up in a bar.

In Alberta, you can't stand up in a bar because if you stand up in a bar with a drink, you're going to fight. So you get kicked out. Really? Yes. So when I came to Ontario, of course, that was only five foot two. So it didn't do me any good to stand up, but you could stand up and walk around and talk and Montreal, whatever you wanted.

People three in the morning, people socialized like crazy in those bars. Yes. They wander on the streets. I think I'm on the streets. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and Alberta, no, that was like no goal. You could have fight, no goal.

That's right. So it was quite a, so then I got to Montreal and I just loved it. And I loved Miguel too. It was wonderful. It was a wonderful year. It was strange to be in a place where I couldn't get a job because my French wasn't good enough. And if you spoke English, it was tense.

The atmosphere was tense. So when I finished that year, I moved to Ottawa and I finished my degree in Ottawa and I went to University of Ottawa. It was a bilingual university so I took half my courses in French and I got a science degree, a kinesiology degree and I studied with a massage therapist for a while because I wanted to do massage afterwards. And I didn't go to the massage school, but I took weekend courses and read a lot and started offering massage therapy to people. And at that time, there weren't that many massage therapists around because it was about

1987. And I got people, I got people coming out of hospitals who were dying, coming to me for massage, for some relief. It was really quite a time to be offering those services. I had one woman, she did pass away, she had lupus and passed away. I had another woman, she was in a cancer treatment. She came to see me. She, you know, she was okay, but herding. And I had a lot, and I taught yoga. I taught yoga out of my house, too. When I first went to university, I'd studied yoga since I was 13 years old.

My aunt introduced me to yoga one summer, when we were tearing down the pig barn and doing yoga lessons in the morning. It was quite a summer. I took the yoga and went home and I just did yoga every day. That is so cool. I thought, I don't know, it seemed like something to do. And I thought I might need this someday. Yeah, well, right? That's for sure. So I always had that in my mind that I would need to know how to take care of myself when I was older. That life would get, I didn't know life would get complicated, but I didn't know that, but I sense that there would be a time where life would be too much for me, and I would have to have skills to cope. Right?

And yeah, well, that certainly happened. Thank goodness I did those things because I think those things have, well, they took me through high school successfully and otherwise I don't think, I don't know how successful I would have been. You know, I'd come home at night after drinking and do a yoga pose or two and realize I'd drank too much. You know, I mean it would bring me back to myself all the time about just where I was. So it's like, you know, when you balance, when you weigh something, you get it to stop at zero, zero first and then you weigh it. That's what I was like when I do my yoga, it would bring me back to myself and I could reflect, okay.

I'm not, I'm doing okay today or I'm really not balanced today or I could and then I did that all through high school so that I didn't ever really go too far one way or another, it kind of centered me. And I'm really grateful for that because high school can be a disaster for some people. High schools really hard. High schools really hard. I mean, people, high schools are, even the teachers have seemed to be confused. I mean, it's not just the kids are confused and I don't know, you know, I grew up in a very rural place in a public school, but I don't think it's all that different anywhere you go.

That kids are trying to find their way and there isn't a lot of guidance that they can listen to unless it's, I mean, this was old sage. You know, the yoga, this is centuries old. It was something that had some staying power and it wasn't the church. And the church, you know, I went to the church, but I didn't get a lot from the minister that was there and there wasn't. And they're just, although my grandmother's were religious, my mum didn't practice. So we went to church as little kids and then as teenagers, not so much and then left the church.

And when I went to Montreal, I went to church for a year there, through a United Church and at Easter I went to a Catholic church and it was all in French. All they said was, you know, forgive me. I'll see in your through the whole thing. They were all all these Frenchmen were wearing pastel suits and walk. It was really it was Easter, you know, they all looked like Easter eggs. It was quite an experience, but I went all by myself right, so because George wasn't a church schooler. Okay, okay, so let's go. So you were in Ottawa. You finished your degree. You're doing massage therapy. You're now fairly bilingual. Now I'm fairly bilingual and Jordan gives me a call.

He said when was last time you talked to him. I Used to see him at Christmas. You know, I'd come home at Christmas every year and then I didn't for a couple of years and then he said it was going to move to Ottawa and I thought oh that'd be nice. And then he didn't he got a job in Edmonton so he didn't come so then I kind of thought well. I'm just going to pick up my life and go forward. Yeah. So I went out with a fellow and lived with him for a couple of years and then I was finishing my degree And I got a phone call from Jordan that he was in Montreal that he was doing his PhD and he was going in McGill

And so I went there for Thanksgiving in No in 1986 And he looked like he was doing all right. And he was a lot taller. Well, he was a lot taller a year after high school. I met him in Fairview. He got out of his car. And he got out of his car for like a second or two longer than usual.

Because he was the output dollar. And he still wasn't mariable at that point though he was pretty much a wild man at that point. But once I got to McGill he looked like he wasn't quite as much of a wild man and that he was getting a life in that he had a plan and I thought that it was a there was a possibility that maybe we could make a go of it, because he'd already asked me to marry him a couple of times by then. When?

At Christmas? Mm, at New Year's? I think at New Year's I said yes, that was the last time. But I don't remember hearing about this. I thought he wrote it to you in a letter. He did, he wrote me a letter and asked me to marry him there. And I thought, is this guy for real. Yeah, it's kind of. That's not very romantic. Where's the knee?

And the ring. Yeah. It's like, well, we did live 3,000 miles apart. Yeah. And then, you know, back then, to call home was, it wasn't, you didn't have a cell phone. You didn't have a cell phone plan or anything. It costs money for a long, long distance. And we didn't have a cell phone, you didn't have a cell phone plan or anything. It costs money for a long long distance. And we didn't have it. I didn't have any extra money. Neither did he. Yeah. And it is kind of romantic. Yeah, you wrote me, I think that used to be the way it was with the board, right letters. I imagine. Yeah. A lot of letter writing. You know, love letters. Remember? You've heard of that. Yeah. Yeah. So he wrote me, I think he was probably going to Europe and wanted to know if I wanted to get, go with him and also get married, but I thought maybe

he was joking because it was written in kind of a joking way. He's not really nervous. Yeah, he could have passed it off as a joke if you said no. So I didn't quite know how to take it. So I didn't quite know how to take it. So I just kind of left that there. And one time he asked me and I said, maybe. I wasn't ready. I didn't want to say no, but I wasn't ready to say yes. I still had to see which way is like when. Well, when we got married, I was 27.

So did you ask you the first time when you were like 25 or something? Oh, maybe 23. Oh, okay, that's pretty young. That's pretty, yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. You know, it started like that early.

Like the asking. The asking? Yeah, the asking started kind of early. You just tortured him for like four years. When he started to, it looked like he was going to start to have some girlfriends. I married him. Ha, ha, ha. As soon used to have other women moving in.

That's funny. Yeah. He was, and he was just starting to feel like confident and everything and I married him. Desperately and definitely want to hear about your wife, Tammy. And also, you're so well-known for your views on men or how your ideas have been taken up, so enthusiastic, good by young men, but we want to talk to you about women. Yeah, that's good. So, but one of the things you and I share is that we both grew up in Canada. I promised Christine I would not do my Canadian accent, so all you were here.

But you grew up in rural Alberta, I grew up in Toronto. And you are what the country's most famous guru now since Marshall McClellan. And, but is the fact that you came from Canada have any effect on your views do you think has it formed you in any way? I mean what it what would it would it be the same if you think you'd grown up in rural Texas? How is Canada contributed to your world view? She's always looking to the Canadian angle Canada So hey, we have this

Well, I think the particular part of Canada I grew up in probably was formative to some degree. I mean, the town I grew up in was only 50 years old, you know, and the particular part of the world that I grew up in was really the last settled part of the North American Prairie. This was outside of Edmonton Graham, both 400 miles north of Edmonton. Oh, 400 miles. Yeah, yeah, it's right at the tip of the tip of the... That's the short-distance short-distance.

Yeah, so the prairie stretches up that far north. It stretches up farther north than Alberta than it does anywhere else in the North American continent. And so we were at the tip of viable farming, essentially. And so it was a new place and it was a rather raw place. And it was a rather harsh place in many ways, especially because of the winter. And it was fundamentally a working class place,

although a prosperous working class place, right? Because most of the industry there was related to the oil and gas industry, although it was cyclical when things were good, working class people could make a very good living. This was during 70s, so through the middle. Yeah, that's right. Was it fun to be a kid in 400 miles outside a small town?

I liked it when I was a kid. I wouldn't say it was as fun when I was a teenager. But I'm not convinced that the majority of people who are teenagers necessarily have the most wonderful time of it. I think adults often look backwards at the past through rose-cutter glasses. I think that's what the cartoonist Trudeau cues Reagan of doing continually. Gary Trudeau. I think the right institute, Tom.

Go ahead and solve Mr. Reagan. No, no, I'm kidding. I think the words you used for. No, no, I'm kidding. I think the word used for it in your book was Teenage Wasteland. I think. Yeah. But it's Canadianness. How does that form you or affected you, if at all?

It's hard to say. I've lived in lots of different parts of Canada now, and Canada is quite different. I lived in, well, Alberta for a while, and it had this particular flavor of existence. I mean, mostly, in Fairview, I was striving to leave and to move ahead, let's say, or to move. I hesitate to say up, but somewhere different,

somewhere more urban. But that's the case with many people. I mean, the small towns all across the West, in the U.S., and in Canada are dying. They're down to nothing, because everyone's moved to the cities. I lived in Montreal for a good while, and that was interesting, because it was a very, very different culture. It was a culture that was, to some degree, stratified by language and by class. None of that was true in Alberta,

because it was so new that there's no class structure. So that was quite interesting. Right, you worked. What I loved, I pulled a passage because I think, as you say, people are born in small places everywhere and someone to leave and some don't. You said, I wanted to be elsewhere. I wasn't the only one.

Everyone who eventually left the fair view I grew up knew they were leaving by the age of 12. I knew, and my wife who grew up with me on the same street, knew, what was that thing? What would you call that? What's the thing that makes you want to leave? And sets you off because you point out there was no class system.

Education was cheap in Canada compared to it. Oh yeah, it wasn't cost that was talking people. You were from a what middle class? Yeah, my father was a teacher and my mother was a librarian, though she had trained as an nurse. So, you know, we had a comfortable, I would say, suburban lifestyle essentially, you know, moderate middle class suburban lifestyle.

That's what fair of you looked like. It looked like a suburb that was built mostly in the 90s, say, between the 1950s and the 1970s. So the young Jordan and the then young Tammy, and you have to tell us that story how you meant, but wanted one and more. Well, you know, I think that's one thing that is different to some degree about class. My father and my mother had both left the town so they were from and they were forward future-looking people. And, you know, most of my friends who quit school and who didn't attend university,

they didn't have that sense, I would say, that more developed sense of a world outside of what they knew. And the other thing is that my father took us on long trips when I was a kid. He was a teacher and so he had summer holidays and we drove all over Western Canada and down into the US, long driving trips, thousands of miles. And you know, that also gave us the sense that the world was a bigger place. But I knew way before I was 12, I believe, that I was off at least to university. And I think generally in your family, if you're liable

to go to university, people don't even really talk about it. It's just a given that that's what's going to happen. It's something that you take in with every breath almost. It's an often an unspoken expectation. And maybe people make casual reference like, well, when you go to college, but it's not like there's a question about it. Whereas if you're from a working-class background, especially if your family hasn't pursued post-secondary education, that isn't in the realm of unspoken or spoken expectation. And it wasn't like lots of my friends, including many of them who dropped out

before they hit high school. They weren't by no means the dimest people in the class. Like they were plenty smart, but they weren't oriented towards the idea of pursuing a career that involved intellectual, what intellectual engagement wasn't in their worldview. And you know, when you hear people on them, let's say, more socialist end of the distribution, talk about barriers to education, they often talk about cost.

And sometimes cost is a barrier. And it's more of a barrier. Yeah, and it's more of a barrier, although there's still plenty of community colleges, and state colleges where you can get educated for a perfectly reasonable amount of money. But for my friends, it was never a reason that money was never a reason they didn't pursue post-secondary education. It was more like a truncated view of time, I would say. You know, there was more of an emphasis on the here and now.

And there were jobs of plenty I can't say. Well, there was also that, yeah. And well-paying jobs. It wasn't obvious that you were in better shape economically to go to university than you were to. Oh, yeah, especially if you were doing something like working on the oil rates. Right. But, you know, that was rough, cold, harsh work.

And it wasn't once you had an in, you could stay employed, but it wasn't that easy to land an entry-level job either. And so, yeah, well, it was wise for lots of working class people to work in those jobs because they were unbelievably lucrative. And they should have been, because they were very difficult and dangerous and frigid cold and rough, so you know it's not like the people didn't earn their money. Well just tell us quickly like how you met your wife you were, you met her when you were

seven or eight or a little three. And grade three. Yeah. And you did you fall in love with her? In grade three. In grade three? Yeah. And was it mutual? Mm. And not in the beginning. She wouldn't admit it if it was. There were lots of the boys in grade three. We're in love with her. She had a whole little crew of guys that were perfectly willing to follow her around.

And she was perfectly willing to exploit that. Oh. She was very good at it. Yeah, she was very popular. It's just so wonderful that you met his children. We were friends for a long time. We used to play chess together in Croquet. She was a vicious Croquet player. I don't know if you've ever played Croquet. But if your balls touch, then you can stand on your

is a racket and then the other person's ball will vanish off into this stratosphere And she liked to knock it all the way down the street Then she laughed and you know, so she she always had a good sense of good vicious sense of humor So one of the things I actually admire about my wife when when we've had our verbal disputes, which you know Have certainly happened she can string together a sequence of insults that's so hair-raising that you know have certainly happened. She can string together a sequence of insults that's so hair-raising that you have to laugh. Did she have brothers? She did. She has a brother, much older, eight years older. Because I have a peaceful person. And I guess I grew up with brothers.

Yeah. And I guess I grew up with brothers. Yeah. And I can get along with guys. Because they show love and affection by insults, and jabs, and jeers, and I had a brother, and I sort of learned, okay, I can do it. But if you don't have brothers, girls are like, oh, that's so rude, that's so hard. So she was... Yeah, well, she has a naturally... Or maybe it's a surveyed twist. She did.

Well, and her father is quite sharp-witted, and well, he was a real town character. He's still alive. He was a real character in the town, a real hyper-extravert. Everybody knew him. And he had a pretty good wit on him, and she had some of that.

Well, it still does have some of that. So she was a, you know, side from her, a cervic humor and her ability to whack balls. And I just don't want to go further on that description. That could have many, many things that tells us about you. But what else, what else brought, what else attract? I mean, you've known her pretty much your whole life. So some of the other qualities that not just attracted you, but enable you to sustain.

I mean, I think every young person in this room will want to know, and maybe there isn't one, but what's the secret? What's it like to be with someone that long? How do you sustain that? Well, I think if you're fortunate, some of it's good fortune. You know, and I would say this is true. I've watched people in their relationships, you know, personally for a long time, but also as a professional, because I've done a in their relationships, you know, personally for a long time, but also as a professional,

because I've done a lot of clinical counseling. And I mean, there's some things that need to be a given about the relationship, I would say. It doesn't hurt to find the other person very attractive. You know, and that's a mysterious thing. We're not exactly sure what it is that produces, let's say, chemistry between people, although chemistry is definitely part of what produces it. There's subtle things that attract people to one another that are way below the level of consciousness.

So, for example, women don't like the older of men who have R.H. blood factors, who, if they had children with, would be likely to produce a stillborn infant. Well, that's definitely a category at match.com. Yeah, right. Right. Well, it's so strange though, because you even know. How does that, how do you even know?

Well, that's a good question, and you know, you know, by order, apparently. And so there's also... You're wearing cologne. Well, that, then it would depend on what type of cologne it is, but... R-H, what was it called? Right. Smell is a very strange age, what was it? Right. Smell is a very strange sense, and it's very deeply tied to very profound emotions, including memory.

And so you find people attractive for reasons that you can't always determine. And so that was part of it. I mean, I've always found her very attractive, and that continues. And I liked her combativeness, you know, like I think that there's, you want someone, I think, in a relationship

that you can spar with. And it's partly because you have hard problems to solve. And if the person that you're with isn't willing to put forward their opinion, then you only have half the cognitive power that you would otherwise have. You know, and hopefully you find someone who's interestingly different from you, like not so different that you can't communicate and you have to be careful of that, but interestingly different. And then hopefully they have the ability and the will to express their opinion and then

well then it's you know then your interest stays heightened and there has to be that tension in a relationship. You know people think well I want to get along perfectly with my partner and it's like no you probably don't. You just get bored and then you go looking for trouble. And so you want a little bit of trouble in the relationship and a little bit of mystery and a little bit of combativeness and the ability to exchange opinions forthrightly. And I trust her, which is a huge element. I mean, when we finally did decide to get together permanently,

we were both in our later 20s. And one of the things that I had learned by that point and insisted to her about was that we had to tell each other the truth. And she took to that wholeheartedly. And for better and for worse, because truth can be harsh. Does that include, like, does this outfit make me go to bed like that? Yeah, well, the truth will answer to that is I don't answer questions that are likely to get me in trouble.

Yeah, so. I have a son who'll answer honestly and it's infuriating, but then I realize if you want the truth, talk to Tam and tell you. Well, that's the thing, you know, it's useful to know. The truth is empowering. Truth tellers are charismatic. And you know, actually both my sons are brutally honest, which is disconcerting them. But I can see that it's made them very formidable

because of the people trust them and the friendships and just it gives them a, and you've written a lot about this. Well, you know, if I tell my wife that she looks good in an outfit, she knows that I mean it. Yeah. And so there's some utility in that. And then if you're silent and say, I don't answer questions that she goes and she knows it.

Well, sometimes, sometimes, you know, she'll say, you know do you like this, and I'll tell her that I don't. And that doesn't necessarily make her happy in the moment. But if I do say, I like it, she knows that I mean it. And I actually like her sense of style a lot. So it turns out that 90% of the time it's pretty easy for me to say, look, I think you look great and mean it. And, you know, she's a fairly harsh standard bearer too, like she's insisted that I stay in whatever reasonable physical shape I happen to be in, you know, that was that was something that she's very demanding of. And I would say that it's the same from my side. And,

and we've been good at negotiating, which is, you know, what do you want from a partner fundamentally? What do you want need? I mean, the first thing is, is that, well, hopefully, like I said, you're blessed with the fact that you find each other attractive. And I think it's very difficult for the relationship to begin or proceed or sustain itself without that and I think of Tammy and I think of you and we don't hear a great deal of Tammy but you guys are I'm sure

Working really hard you're contending you're confronting all this stuff and you're processing it and I'm sure your marriage is strengthening I trust it is and I'd love some insight on that if you if you can speak to what you're learning about marriage in this season of your life. Well, the first thing we're doing is the Tammy is traveling with me. So that's very helpful. And she's paying attention. You know, so, and we talk a lot about what is going on, but also a lot about our family, because there's complicated things going on in our family, like there are in most families. And we do our best to communicate, and she says what she thinks. And I say what I think,

and we don't always think the same thing. But we do our best to listen. We do our best to assume that just because the other person has a different opinion doesn't mean that they're wrong, even though it would be lovely if they were. And then we try to come up with a negotiated solution that's mutually acceptable. And we discuss strategy as well. I mean, for example, when we started this tour, which was more than a year ago, we thought, you know, there's a lot of competing things that you could think about a tour,

especially when we had no idea how long it would be. Like, what was this? Was this a vacation? We were going to, you know, spectacular cities all over the world. Was it time for us to spend together? Like, what was it? What were we doing? And we spent two hours thinking, it's like no, this is work. We have a remarkable opportunity here. And we're going to do the work. We're going to hit as many cities as we can.

And so what does that mean? It means we get the hell up in the morning. We make sure we're packed. Our suitcases aren't too full. We don't carry anything that goes underneath the plane. We make sure that I don't get hungry because then I can't perform properly. We make sure that I'm at the theater at the right point in time. And we make sure that our eye is focused on the fact that it's a great privilege and it's very unlikely that we can do this. And so we thought, okay, that's the deal. And then we thought, well,

and then we can take an hour or two here and there. If we're fortunate to see some of the city and to take a break and to do that when we can. And, you know, we've negotiated other details about exactly how intense the scheduling was going to be, but it's a constant negotiation, and it is a contentious negotiation, which is good because these things are complicated, you know, and to think something complicated through, you need a good argument on this side, and you need a good argument on this side, and then you've got to have at her and see if you can come out with an even better argument as a consequence. And so that seemed to work. Now there's other advantages.

It turns out that Tammy is very suited. I'm sorry I'm speaking for her, but she doesn't have a microphone. It actually prefers to stay in the background to some degree for various reasons. She's very suited to a life like this. She's quite stable emotionally. So she, she doesn't suffer from a lot of anxiety. She likes to travel.

She likes meeting new people. She likes the adventure, and she's supporting what I'm doing. And so that's working, and thank God for that. And then she also keeps an eye on what I'm doing, and lets me know when it's going well and when she thinks it needs improvement and and and she helps me figure out where I'm going next because for the last two years my schedule has been so busy that I don't know what I'm doing next usually, maybe the next day and so her job

because we've also parceled out jobs, is to make sure that I get wherever I'm going next on time and ready. And so far, that's brought, I would say, incalculable benefits, fundamentally. And because we agreed on it, we had our little constitution in place. We were able to handle the stress because I think we've been in a hundred and it's damn near 150 cities in 350 days. And so it's very heavy traveling

schedule. And the other thing too is I trust her. She tells me the truth. It isn't necessarily what I want to hear. Well, you can tell. That's the truth, man. What you don't necessarily want to hear. But so she's a very good counselor. And that's turned out to be exceptionally helpful. So, and I'm with my wife. I've been with her for, well, I've known her for 50 years and we stuck together through good times and bad times and it's definitely worth it. It's continual negotiating and effort but you know we have a we have a narrative of our life that's complete and unbroken and it's that's unbelievably valuable. and unbroken and that's unbelievably valuable. If you're told your parent or your wife of almost 30 years,

has no chance and is going to be dead in the next 10 months. That's what we were told. That surgery doesn't help and that chemo doesn't help and that this is a fast growing cancer and your screwed no matter what. That's what we heard in one day. So yeah, anxiety went all over North America to New York and to Houston and to LA looking for different opinions before we decided to settle on surgery, but and everyone gave us the same opinion. Yes, which was that nothing is going to help, but surgery was probably the best, the best low probability bet. Well, you know, when I was

first diagnosed with cancer, they told me it was treatable. And so I thought, okay, it's treatable. I'll just do this and move on. And so I came home from Australia. I had surgery six weeks later. I was walking from midtown to the lake front and back. I was in good shape.

Then I went to my six week doctor's appointment, and they told me, actually, no, we were wrong. What you have is a type of cancer that's, I mean, we never see, because everybody dies so fast, you're gonna die in 11 months. If we have to do surgery like right now, and there's no chemo or rate, we don't know how to treat this.

So all we're going to do is is take your kidney out and all your lymph out and hope for the best. And I thought, oh, I'm going to die. When I got that terminal illness, prognosis, I was at the hospital with my husband. We came home and I thought I was thinking on the way home. I'm 57. I had many ants that lived this long. Many uncles, they died when they were in their 50s. Maybe I'm one of them too, you know, so I can accept that. If I'm going to die now, I can accept that. I've lived a good life and I've always thought I was in control of my life and I always thought I was a tough person that I could do whatever I wanted to do and I decided I'd make this decision as well.

But when I got home and told my son and my daughter. The looks on their faces made me think, oh, oh, I'm not thinking about this, right? This isn't about me. None of this is about me. This is about my loved ones. And I'm here for them. And they need me. And so I'll do it. That's why people go through surgery and and radiation and chemotherapy. That's why people will have limbs removed and everything you think, God, that's awful. Why do people do that? Because of people that they love. That's why we live is because we are social creatures like we were speaking before our arms are made to hug. We are here to serve others and I all of a sudden it was really quite a

serve others. And all of a sudden it was really quite a momentary change for me that I understood that this was a whole different story than I had thought in the beginning. So when I went back in the hospital and had surgery and I was I wanted to live. You know, I and I said I would do anything and I would be grateful for all the care and the help that I was getting. Like as far as I'm concerned, I died and came back to life. So and probably and spiritually, I've been reborn and I think I understand what reborn means now. And I think this is something that when you get sick, and it looks like there's no way back, then you have to prepare yourself for what might happen.

And I was put in a position where I was at the mercy of medicine and luck, really. And so all the prayers that came through all the people that Jordan and I had met on tour, I breathed in those prayers, you know, the night before my surgery. I breathed in gold prayers to myself and I asked myself why I turned against myself and like why these little cells, it was like they had turned away. That's what it was like. It was like, hey you guys, like where'd you go? We have a job to do here. We, everybody else is keeping me alive. You guys, what do you turn to right way for? But they were turned away for good. And I couldn't turn them back to me again. And then I realized, you know,

through this meditation I was doing that I had to give the cancer to the universe because because, Council is too big for one person. And so, after that moment, anybody who would offer me any prayer or any relief of any kind, or just a smile or anything, I would take it. I would take it and bring it to myself. And I realized that it wasn't, that it wasn't, it wasn't doing it exactly for me. I was doing that to survive so that I could be someone who could be of service to Jordan, right? Be of service to you. Be a grandmother for my grandkids. So I had these other things in my life that were important. And maybe I was

going to die, but I was going to do whatever I had in my power to do to stay alive. And really prayer was a big part of what I did. You know, I had a very good friend come to the hospital. When I was in the hospital for five weeks, every day she came up and attended the morning and we prayed for two hours a day. And I just cried and told her my life story really and prayed. And I still pray every day. She taught me the rosary, and I'm not Catholic, but she taught me the rosary, and I memorized it, and I read about it, and I understand it, and I pray at every day to start my day,

and I meditate every day to start my day and my intention, always is that I will be done. I'm in service for God's will and that doesn't mean that I'm not taking part in life. I am, but I'm not the person who's making the decisions. I'm not playing God anymore. Tammy, my wife has always taken the idea of truth very seriously. Her recent brush with death has deepened her religious sense and impelled her towards a life that's more consciously focused on service to others, her family in particular, but not only her family, people beyond the family.

And I also think that's a function to some degree of our stage of life. She's a grandmother now and her children are grown and able to take care of themselves and so she can turn her attention to other people, maybe farther afield from the immediate family. I'm watching what she's doing and listening to her and watching her practical application of her faith.

And that affects me just as everything she does affects me because I watch what she does and take it seriously. And her recent actions have indicated she's helped a number of people quite substantially to a group that she's been communicating with. And all of that's very interesting to me. She's showing me, I mean, I've taken the idea of God seriously for a very long time. And I've said on multiple occasions that I try to act as though God exists and that's essentially my definition of belief. When people say, do you believe in God?

Belief is a multi-dimensional word. And the question, one question is, well, what do you mean by belief? And for me, the proof of belief is to be found in action. And I decided that I would act as if God existed a long while back. And of course, I'm imperfect in that inevitably. Now, she's doing that more explicitly as well. Not she wasn't doing it quite well to begin with.

She's doing it more explicitly and also more within the confines of traditional religious conceptions, although she's not attending church, she's associating with a number of people who are formally religious and all of that's informing the way that she conducts herself. So it's watching her do that has also highlighted for me the missing practice in Western Christianity. If you want to be a Christian, let's say if you think that's necessary. It's not exactly obvious what you should do. You should go to church. But that's not enough. I don't think. I find it useful to contemplate

the highest good on a continual basis. I'm trying to keep myself oriented in that direction. It's a religious orientation fundamentally. It's an overwhelming orientation. But there's no escaping the questions of the ultimate meaning of life. When Jordan first asked me to marry him, he told me that if we didn't tell the truth, our relationship couldn't work. And so that was going to be, and that was when he was 25, something like that.

And so that was the first thing that we were to tell the truth. And I hadn't really understood what that meant. I first took that to mean my truth in what the truth in my relationships, where my goals are, to make sure that that was all truthful. So that was the first so honesty. Honesty was paramount. And he still talks about that as being very, very important. And so that is what got us started and really took us. Through the, the other thing was that not we we didn't let we didn't. If there was a problem,

we didn't just let it go. It might have taken three days in the beginning to uncover what was happening because we both were pretty strong headed and probably didn't really want to admit that we had done anything to cause the trouble. So in the early days but we didn't give up on it. He was very good at even though he doesn't like conflict. He's a very soft-hearted, very compassionate person. As you can tell through his public image, he would still insist that we talk about it until he understood it. And that was really good. We got through a lot of trouble by perseverance. And you know, at the end of every mystery in the rosary, you pretty much pray for perseverance. It's all about trying again and getting up and trying again and getting up and trying again, no matter what. Well look I'm old now, I'm 60 and my wife is 60, okay so we're grandparents

and I can tell you what makes our lives worthwhile. Go on. Well, I'm really attracted to my wife. Get a girl. Well, and we've been sorry. Don't be sorry. We've been isolated from each other for a long time because we wrote so sick. It's been two years, really. And the physical intimacy element of our marriage is extremely important. We're very careful about that. In value, extremely highly and pay a tremendous amount

of attention. It's really important that the sexual element, the romantic element, those two things, when they're properly handled, they're indistinguishable. And if you think that sex is okay without romance, you don't know anything about romance because sex is so much better with romance that it's not even the same thing. So, so that's all important. But as you get older, what's important is that, well, you have a family, you have your children, you have your grandchildren, you have a continuity of narrative, you have a long term relationship that you've built. That's what's important.

When you're doing things impulsively, when you're young, you're not paying attention to the old you in mind. You're going to be old and you have to be building towards that or you're going to be old and things are going to be a catastrophe. We were very close friends. We enjoyed each other's company when we were kids. I thought he was smart back then. He was fascinating to be around. He had different ways of looking at things and dissecting problems. When we were really little, we played with the chemistry set.

You know, we liked that. And he really liked that. And I got to be a part of that. He taught me how to play chess when I was a little kid. That was really great. And I was five years younger than my siblings. So I didn't really grow up with my family. I grew up with my friends. And he was one of the friends that I grew up with. with my family, I grew up with my friends, and he was one of the friends that I grew up with. And I never got tired of being with him. And then when I left home when I was 18, and didn't really see him that much until I was in my 20s or my mid 20s. And he called me and had moved within a couple of hours of where I lived

when we were in our twenties. And I went to visit him. And he was getting his PhD. So it looked like he was getting his life together. He was taking responsibility for himself and moving forward. And I thought, you know, if I don't marry him, I won't know what happens in his life. How did I meet my wife and why did you marry her? Well, I'll tell you one of the earliest memories I have of my wife because it kind of tells you what she's like Okay, so she lived across the street from me in this little town that we grew up in called Fairview, Alberta and I think I fell in love with her the moment that I saw her and Although I don't think the feeling was necessarily mutual and so I was about like seven I think something like that so I've known her for like

48 years and Here's one memory, because this is, there are two memories I'll tell you. So one of them was, when I was in grade five, I got glasses. And I was pretty proud of these glasses. They were horn-ringed glasses, you know, and I was pretty proud of them.

And I went out and I, she came out onto the street and she looked at my glasses. I said, what do you think of those? And she says, I think you look really funny in those. And then she pointed at me and ran into her house. And it was like 20 years later that she finally told me that she had always wanted to have glasses. And she was jealous about it. But you know, she decided she'd give me a good teasing and a good poke. And so that, and then we used to play croquet together. And one of the great delights she

would take is, I don't know if you've ever laid Croquet, but you know, you're sometimes the one person's ball that they're hitting and another person will come together. And then you can stand on your ball and you can nail it with the Croquet mallet and like knock the other person's Croquet ball halfway down the block and she used to think that was pretty damn amusing when she did it to me. And let's see, what else can I remember about her? But yeah, I mean, I told my dad when I was in grade five, I was sitting with her on this big armchair in our living room.

And she was sitting beside me on the armchair, which I was pretty damn thrilled about. And she was being chased around by all the boys in the school at that point, even though she, that was in the elementary school, you know, so she was very Hawk property, let's say, among the elementary school boys. And so I was pretty happy to have her sit by me. And so Anyway, she left and I told my dad that I was gonna marry her And I remember that and he told that story at our wedding, which was quite cute. And then I'll tell you one more story, which I really think is funny. This is so funny. So we were friends when we were kids and then, you know, girls mature faster than

boys and she's a year older than me because I skipped a grade in school. We were in the same grade in school. And so, you know, when she had about 13 or so, we kind of went our separate ways a little bit, although we still remain friends. And she had a paper route, and I took her paper route over when she hit 13 or so, and I like quadrupled the damn thing, I think, which I think is pretty funny. But I also delivered paper to her house, and one day she was there with another other her friends,

and who was kind of a cute cute chick too, and I liked her quite a bit. And they were sitting around talking about how they were feminists, roughly speaking in. They were talking when I walked in about the fact that neither of them were going to take their husbands last day when they got married. And Tammy, my wife, I think, said to her friend, well, that really means I'm gonna have to find some wimp and marry him. And she

turned around and looked at me and smiled evilly and said, hey Jordan, do you want to get married? And of course I'd heard the whole conversation. And you know, she knew I liked her obviously. And so that was nice little comical dig. She has a very vicious sense of humor and you know I kind of laughed and I thought okay yeah okay so funny. So then when we were I was like 28 and she had come to see me in Montreal and we were talking about getting married and she said we were talking about what that would mean and then we were talking about what that would mean. And then we started talking about what the name would be. And I said, Hey, I've got a story for you. Remember when you were

13, and I was delivering papers to your house. And because I suggested that she take my last name, and she wasn't so sure about that. And I said, well, you remember that little story that, that little episode that we had when you were 13. And I came over to your house and you told me that you weren't going to take your husband's name and that you're going to have to marry some wimp said okay well you know here I am but you know if we're going to get married you're going to take my name and that's the end of that argument and so you know she had the good graces to go along with that but that was actually you know extraordinarily comical and ridiculous so so yeah so that's a good one. extraordinarily comical and ridiculous, so yeah, so that's a good one.