The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Playing the Hierarchical Game - Part two

Episode Date: February 9, 2020

Part two of Jordan Peterson's 2019 lecture from Melbourne, AU Thanks to our sponsors: http://trybasis.com/jordan/

Welcome to the Jordan B Peterson podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter. I've put up a YouTube video on my dad's channel that goes into detail about the last year of how the Peterson's had to experience. If you listen to this podcast often, you know I usually give family updates. I haven't for the last month and I'm about to tell you why. You can go to YouTube to check out the most recent update, but I'll also just read the script I used for the video to make it easier for you.

So here goes. The last year has been absolute hell for the Peter Sense. Dad was put on a low dose of a benzodiazepine a few years ago for anxiety, following an extremely severe autoimmune reaction to food. He took the medication as prescribed. Last April, when my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer, the dose of the medication was increased. Became apparent that he was suffering from both a physical dependency and a paradoxical reaction to the medication.

Paradoxical reaction means the drugs do the opposite of what they're supposed to. These reactions are rare but not unheard of. For the last eight months, he's been an unbearable discomfort from this drug made worse when trying to remove it because of the addition of withdrawal symptoms stemming from physical dependence. He experienced terrible acuthesia, which is a condition where the person feels an incredible endless irresistible restlessness, bordering on panic, and an inability to sit still. The reaction made him suicidal. After several failed treatment attempts in North American hospitals, including attempts at tapering and microtapering, we had to seek an emergency medical

benzodiazepine detox, which we were only able to find in Russia. It was incredibly grueling and was further complicated by severe pneumonia, which we've been told he developed in one of the previous hospitals. He's had to spend four weeks in the ICU in terrible shape, but with the help of some extremely competent and courageous doctors he survived. The decision to bring him to Russia was made in extreme desperation, when we couldn't find any better options. The uncertainty around his recovery has been one of the most difficult and scary experiences we've ever had. So, finally, dad is on the mend, even though there's a lot of physiological damage that he needs to recover from. He's improving and is off of the horrible medication. His sense of humor is back. He's smiling again for the first time in months, but he still has a long way to go to recover fully. It appears that

we're going to get through this by the skin of our teeth, so let me make a couple of things clear. One, neither our family nor the doctors here believe that this was a case of psychological addiction. Two, benzodiazepine physical dependence due to brain changes can occur in a matter of weeks. It can be made even worse by paradoxical reactions that are difficult to diagnose and can be extremely difficult. We've been told and hoped that dad will recover fully, but it will take time and he still has a ways to go. We are extremely lucky and grateful that he's alive.

The next update will come from him directly on YouTube. Thanks again for all the support. I wouldn't wish the hell dad experienced this year on my worst enemy. So that's why we're in Russia, and that's why there have been no updates for a number of weeks. We really didn't know if he was going to survive. He did though, thank goodness. So today's episode is a 12 rules for life lecture called playing the hierarchical game part two The first part was last week. It was recorded in Melbourne, Australia on February 13th 2019. Enjoy the podcast. Thanks for the support Playing the hierarchical game part two a a Jordan B. Peters and 12 rules for life lecture. We have to be more sophisticated than the economists were 150 years ago when we talk about inequality.

And when we talk about hierarchy, we also have to be more sophisticated because we have to start to understand what it means for there to be a human hierarchy. And the basis upon which hierarchies actually establish themselves, if they're going to be a human hierarchy. And the basis upon which hierarchies actually establish themselves, if they're going to be playable, iterable, civilized, productive, sustainable, what? What? Voluntary.

That's an important one. What are the characteristics of such things? And I think that if we use a little bit of sense, we can figure that out too. And I like to use the example of plumbers, because I actually happen to like plumbers, partly because I don't like it when my basement is full of sewage. And that's happened once or twice, and you call a plumber, and then that doesn't happen. And I'm pleased about that, like I'm sure most of you are, you know. And plumbers have done an awful lot for the world. And there's a big difference between a good plumber

and a bad plumber. I've had two bad plumbers. And the first bad plumber was in Montreal. And my tap was leaking a little bit. And so he came into fix it. And I know what the hell he was doing, but he was using a torch. And he was burning something, maybe taking some solder off some pipes underneath the the sink but he lit the

wall on fire which wasn't helpful because the wall wasn't on fire before he showed up and so and then and then he forgot to shut the water off at the main pipe when he took the tap apart and so then apart from the fact that my wall was charred, my bathroom was completely covered with water. And then he sort of panicked and he put the thing back together, the tap back together with the with the washer, which was now extraordinarily damaged. And he shut it off and he turned, he had figured out to turn the water off at the main valve by then. And he turned it back on, and he left. Now the wall was on fire, and the floor was covered with water.

And there was five times as much water running out of the tap. This was not an improvement. I joked with my wife that he was an anti-plumber. An anti-matter plumber. And if he ever met a real plumber on the road and shook his hand, they'd both disappear in a puff of light. So that was one plumber. And then another plumber, we were redoing our house in Toronto.

And it was the day before the drywallers were supposed to come in. And so we were working like mad. Because drywallers, they're fun to watch, man. They zip in, they lift up their piece of drywallers were supposed to come in and so we were working like mad because drywallers like they're fun to watch man. They zip in, they lift up their piece of drywall, they zip it up with their screws and they're really fast at it and it's quite a skilled operation and but they're really fast and they don't muck about and so you have to be ready for the drywallers and so this guy had redone all our pipes, PVC, plastic pipe and you put this that together with a kind of solvent case, so you just put solvent on one end of the pipe, the male end, and you put it into the female end with some solvent, and they stick together, and hopefully it seals.

And he said, my joints never leak, and so we tested them. We went up on this roof, three floors up, and filled the pipes up with water and his joints leaked. Like 32 joints leaked. We had four inches of water in the basement. And this was the day before the drywall was supposed to show up. And then also we found that he had put a lot of the pipes outside of the wall where the drywall was going to be, which actually also constitutes a mistake, right? Because I don't know about your house, but my house isn't a house where there's plumbing sticking randomly out of the walls. So we had to spend the whole night redoing all the joints and cutting the pipes and putting the way they were supposed to.

And so that's a bad plumber. And so we're going to make the case that there are bad plumberes, you know? And they don't know what they're doing. And so they don't have any skill, or maybe they're worse than not skilled. They make things worse, because that's worse than just not skilled. And then you could say, well, maybe they lie to you when they deal with you, and maybe they overcharge you,

and maybe they don't treat their employees very well. And maybe they're not good to live with at home, either, who the hell knows. but they're not good plumbers. And so we're going to say that just in the plumbing domain, which is an important domain, skill matters. Right? That seems reasonable. And then we might say the same thing about, well, what?

Probably matters in law. If you ever need a lawyer, I would recommend that you get a good one. Because if you get a bad one, it's going to cost you a lot more than if you get a good one. Like everything. And, you know, there are good teachers and not so good teachers. And there are good massage therapists, and there are good nurses, and there are horrible nurses. And there are great surgeons, and then there are surgeons that will definitely kill you.

And you want to go to one that won't kill you. And you'd assume difference in skill, you know, and whatever your occupation is, you know, bloody well, maybe you're a shorter to cook at a diner and like some shorter to cooks can whip up a pretty damn decent breakfast in three or four minutes and you're pretty bloody happy to sit there and eat it. Another shorter to cooks can produce some godful mess of burnt eggs and wretched toast and rancid bacon and orange juice that's like had a crayon dipped in it for the color and with with a really ordinary waitress and coffee that's been cooking since like 1953 and there's

a that's a big difference in short-order cooks. There's qualitative difference in skill. Okay, and so one of the things we might point out is that part of the reason that we have hierarchies in the West is because people actually differ in skill, not power, skill. Some people are better at whatever it is they're supposed to be doing than other people. And we think that what they're supposed to be doing is important so that it matters that they're better at it. And what are we going to do? We're going to deny that skill plays a role. All the evidence suggests that it does.

Like if you look at what predicts long-term success from a psychological perspective in a given occupation, conscientiousness is the best personality predictor. And conscientious people are beautiful and hardworking and they have integrity and they do what they say they're going to do. And so that's the best predictor, second best predictor, and the best predictor is intelligence. And so it looks like in a relatively complicated occupation, if you're going to be successful in a Western culture,

the best predictors of your success is whether you're intelligent, skilled, and conscientious. And that's pretty good. Like how else would you want it to be? If you're going to set it up. And it isn't power because agreeableness is another dimension. You can be disagreeable, men are more disagreeable than women, by the way. And if our society was fundamentally based on power, then the most disagreeable people would be the most successful, and they're not. They're the ones that are most likely to be in prison. So, so that evidence

just doesn't support that. And then you know, the other thing is is you don't have, you imagine, well, our society is fundamentally an oppressive patriarchy, and everything's based on power. It's like, okay, so you need a plumber and so what you do is you go out in the street or maybe you don't, maybe you cover at home and these like gangs of plumbers come to your house and they're armed to the damn teeth with their pipes and they say, look, I don't know whether you need like some plumbing work done or not, but maybe we'll come in here and break a few things so that you do need it. But even if we're not going to do that, it's like, were the plumbers that are going to take you out unless you call us? And so the next time the toilet overflows, man, here's the number and you better put it on your fridge,

or there's going to be hell to pay, or the case of like gang-affiliated massage therapists, exactly the same thing, tattooed to the hill, right, armed to the teeth, and roaming the streets, making bloody sure that if you have a stiff neck, that the most powerful massage therapist is the one that you're going to call first. You know, it's complete bloody rubbish. It's absolutely not the case. Now, it is the case that, even in a hierarchy that's functional, the thing can go sideways, and it does.

You get companies that get too big, they start to get corrupt, people who play politics, and who are going to manipulate and start to rise up the hierarchy. The structure stops performing its function. It's useful function in the way that it should. It starts to degenerate, but generally then it dies. You know, like the typical Fortune 500 company only lasts 30 years, and the typical family fortune

only three generations. It's not that easy to keep a functional enterprise going. You have to be awake. And so, no, it's not an impressive patriarchy, our culture. That's wrong. It's based on competence, fundamentally, imperfect as that is. It's not like we don't make hiring mistakes. It's not like there aren't people who are foolish and blind and higher and fire based on attributes that have nothing to do with competence, but that's a sign of the deterioration of the system and the corruption of the system and not an indication of its

fundamental function. And it's also the case that, and this is partly what I try to outline in rule one, which is pretty much the rule we're going to discuss today. Part of your goal, if you want to take your place in the hierarchy properly, is to be a good person. And that was the argument I was trying to make in the chapter. Not that you're supposed to be like the most brutal crustacean on the block. You know, it's so foolish. I was Kathy Newman, I think, to ask me in the UK. So you're saying that human society should be organized along the lines of lobsters. It's like, look, lady, if you're going to insult someone, you might want to try accusing them of something, of believing something,

that someone somewhere believed at least once in the entire history of the human race. And not that, yes, absolutely. Lobsters for everyone, you know? That's how, how I was trying to make the case was that we have this very old system in our nervous systems, which is very old, which keeps track of where we are in hierarchies, and that regulates our emotions because of it, because it's really important to you and you and you and you. If you're not completely bloody psychopathic, that you have a place in a social hierarchy, and that you're admired and respected and valued by other people. And it's so important that the neurochemical system that keeps track of that regulates your

other emotions so that if you're low on the totem pole, because, well, for whatever the reason happens to be, sometimes you deserve it, sometimes it's accidental, sometimes you've been hurt, there's lots of ways that this can happen. Your serotonin levels plummet like a defeated lobster, and then you feel way more negative emotion about everything, and way less positive emotion about everything. And that's absolutely dreadful. It's clinical depression, it's a terrible, terrible condition. And so it's absolutely crucial that you maintain a tenable position in a hierarchy,

and not at one of power, but one of competence and At least even if you're not in a position that's tenable you're moving upward towards one that's tenable because that at least gives you hope You know because maybe you're young and useless and you don't know what the hell you're doing You're just getting started and so you're a low-man on the totem pole But it's not like you're stuck there forever. You do some decent work I had some kid tell me the other day. It was really nice. It was just last night. Is it a comedy show? I went to here and A lot of the comedians knew us a day to you Rubin and I went in there And so a lot of them knew us which was quite interesting and one of them said

God, you know, I was in a rough shape two years ago. I was just getting married I just got married. I was nihilistic as hell and depressed and bitter and things weren't going well for me at all. And I was unemployed. And one of my friends got me a job. And he said, I'd really like to bloody job. I didn't want to have the job.

And I was kind of dragging my ass to the work and not doing it well. And I listened to one of your lectures and it said, look, if you haven't got anything going for you but you have a job, don't quit your job. Whether you hate it or not, it's like, man, that's what you're hanging on to the edge of the world with your fingertips, you know? Don't let go. If you can find a better job, okay, fine, but you don't just quit. Because then what? You're done. And he said, and another thing that I had mentioned was, why don't you just try to work as hard as you can at your damn job for like six weeks, right? All flat out. You know, if you work 10% longer hours, you make 40% more money. That's something worth thinking about. You know, you've got

a job, maybe you show up 15 minutes early and you leave 15 minutes about. You know, you've got a job, maybe you show up 15 minutes early, and you leave 15 minutes late. You know, and you actually work, and your boss notices, because he would probably notice, and then maybe someone's gonna get promoted, and maybe it'll be you, because something's gonna tilt the scales, and that little extra bit of work done without cynicism and resentment might be enough. Well, he said he started at 21 bucks an hour, and in six weeks he was making $37 an hour,

and it's not a king's ransom, man, but it's a hell of a lot more than zero, and it's quite a lot more than 21. He said his life had turned around substantially, because he learned if he put some damn effort into it, and I'm not trying to be joe-optimist here, like I know that people hit hit runs of bad luck and that things can take you out of life, right? Unfortunately, illness is and betrayal. There's no shortage of randomness and horror that can wipe you out even if you're doing your best. But you don't have a better bloody plan than to do your best.

And it tends to work a lot better than you think. And what's so interesting about the hierarchies that people set up is that that's how they're set up. They're not set up on power. They're set up on reciprocity and skill and trust. Not always. And if you're in a job where you work hard and you're a good guy and you're doing your best and your boss is a bloody tyrant and you never get a break it's like okay fine you're in a Foucault world. Get the hell out of it. Get your resume set up, write your CV, fill in the educational gaps that you have, send out your 25 resumes a day and prepare to make a lateral move, because you're in a bad place.

But almost everywhere, and this certainly means the case, virtually everywhere I've worked, and I've had like 50 jobs, you know. If you go above and beyond the call of duty, you know, and wake an intelligent way, interpersonally, socially, with regards to the diligence of your work, with regards to the truth of your attitude and your courage and all of that, that will work. And if you try it for a year and it doesn't work, then go somewhere else, because you can, right?

You're free, I mean, it's not easy. You can't just walk out the door and instantly find another job, but you're not enslaved. You could make a move. You could even decide that you're going to make a move and double your salary. It's not a bad goal, and it's certainly a possibility. It's like, it isn't hierarchy.

It's ethics that determines success in a functional society. It's ethics that determines success, not power. The rest of it's a bloody lie, and that doesn't mean that all our systems are perfectly ethical. You know, you've got to be awake if you're in a system there's going to be some corruption in it. Part of what you're supposed to do is keep your damn eyes open for the corruption and your mouth speaking truth. So when the corruption starts to take root, you object to it so the whole damn system doesn't turn into a pathological power play. And that's part of your ethical responsibility as a conscious being, an ethical being,

a religious being for that matter, and a citizen, you know? And you're charged with that. That's why you're, that's why you vote. That's why you're the cornerstone of your state, man. You're the, you're the, you're the, what would you call? You're the, you're the wellspring of the ethical actions that replenish the dying world.

That's what you are. And if you, if you act, that's really, that's what you are. And if you act that out properly, then things work. And that's why that's always been described as ethical behavior. It's not because you're supposed to be good. You know, and being good isn't that easy anyways, and it certainly doesn't be nice and harmless. It's not an easy thing to be good. You have to be tough as a damn boat to be good, because you have to stand your

ground when you need to stand your ground, and you have to be able to say no when it's time to say no, and you have to mean it. And so then you have to think and plan strategically so that when you're going to say no, you can mean it and it will stick. And that takes a certain amount of, that takes a certain amount of integrated malevolence, I would say. And once it's integrated, it's not malevolence,

it's strength, it's strength of character, it's the ability to stand your ground. And you have to cultivate that. And you cultivate that at least in part by telling the truth And so you take your place in the world as a decent person and as a decent citizen and then and you play the higher Oracle game properly and that is to stand up straight with your shoulders back It's like the world's an onslaught. You've got the tyranny of culture to deal with you've got the catastrophe of nature You've got your own damn

malevolence and ignorance, right? All coming at you. Plus the incredible, complicated, indeterminate potential of the future. That's all coming at you. And it's all your responsibility. And you can cringe away from it and be afraid of it and be victimized by it and be bitter and cynical about it. And no wonder, because it can be painful or you can turn around and you can say, man, bring it on because there's more to me than there is to the catastrophe. And this is what I discovered from looking at what I looked at. I looked at the darkest things I could look at, really, for 30 years. I was really a lot of fun to be around. I can tell you.

I looked at the darkest things that I could think of, right? Not only what happened in Auschwitz and what happened in the Goulag, fun to be around. I can tell you. I looked at the darkest things that I could think of, right? Not only what happened in Auschwitz and what happened in the Goulag, but personal issues. You know, it's like I wasn't so much interested in the totalitarians as a group. I was interested in the people who undertook the terrible acts that the totalitarians required. You know, the people who I was just rereading ordinary men, and it was a story about a police battalion in Poland that trained ordinary policemen to take naked pregnant women out into the fields and shoot them in the back of the head.

It takes a lot of training, by the way, before you can bring yourself to do that. And you aren't the same person by the end of it. It's pretty goddamn horrific. You know, when I was trying to figure out, what would it be like to be that person? Because we are that person. And then what would it be like to not be that person, right? To refuse to do that, to not participate in that. You know, and what I've discovered by making that totalitarian proclivity personal

was that there was, there's more to us than there is to the horror. You know, bad as nature is, bent on our destruction. Bad as culture is, tyrannical and bloody, back as far as you can look, as malevolent as you are in the darkest part of your heart, and that's plenty malevolent. The possibility that's within you that can well up, the courage and the truth and the ability and the skill and the willingness to set things right, if you are willing to set them right, is more powerful than all of that.

And so it's so interesting. It was proof for me of an old saying I read from Carl Jung, it's an alchemical motif in stir-quilinus inventor which is what you most want to be found will be found where you least want to look essentially and it's so interesting because it means that if you're willing to turn around and to stand up say and stand up straight and face the darkness like fully what you discover at the darkest part is the brightest light and that's something that's so much worth discovering because there's going to be terrible darkness in your life and it's going to make you cynical and bitter and it could easily

be that you're just not looking at it enough, because if you looked at it enough, and you didn't shy away, and you brought everything you had to bear on it, you'd find that there was more to you than there was to the horror. You know, I watched my father-in-law. I'll end with this. And you know, you don't know it, because you're not bringing your A-game to the table with all that cynicism, bitterness, and resentment, and willful blindness, and avoidance. Maybe you're playing at 60%.

It's not good enough, because there's too much of what's bad for 60% to be good enough. It's like you need 90% or 95% or 100%. When about 15, 20 years ago, my mother-in-law developed prefrontal temporal dementia, which I wouldn't recommend. It's one of those degenerative neurological diseases like Alzheimer, and those bloody things are... Like they're in the top echelon of awful. You know, you watch a person deteriorate before your eyes. It's a lengthy, lengthy death. And it was slow. And her husband, he lived in this little town that I grew up in,

about 3,000 people. He was quite a character, man. Everybody knew him. I bought him a foghorn, leghorn, t-shirt once, because that's kind of what he was like. He's loud and sort of bombastic, but he stood up straight, I can tell you. And he played the fool a little bit, mostly for the amusement of people, but he was no damn fool. And I always admired him and liked him. And the feeling was mutual, thank God, since I married his daughter. And he drank a lot with his crazy friends up in Northern Alberta,

and he wasn't at home a lot, because he was working a lot. And he was kind of a party animal about town, but a good businessman and a good man. And then his wife got sick, and they moved to another town. And he took care of her for like 15 years. It was unbelievable as she deteriorated you know and she got more desperate to have him around her love for him never never went away even and even as she lost herself almost completely she would always light up when when he into the room, you know, and he took care of her

right till within weeks of her death. He had to finally put her in an old folks home because he was no longer strong enough to lift her up from the chair. And we interacted with him a lot, you know, because we were trying to help him figure out how to cope. And we had signs put up in the house electronic signs that would tell her when she when he was leaving so that she would know where he went and we had recordings in the bathroom so that she knew what to do when she went into the bathroom and we tried to do everything we could to not make this absolutely bloody atrocious experience complete hell and he participated the whole way. You know, and it was really something to see.

It was really, I left it with a tremendous sense of admiration for him, but not just for him, but for people who can do that. You know, and if there was a new decline, he took it on, and he didn't complain about it, and he tried to do what he could. You know, and like it was no picnic, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't hell. And then we were all gathered around the deathbed. Her mother's, my wife's mother's deathbed, and the family was there.

They got along pretty well. Her sisters, appellate of caroners, and the other ones, a pharmacy, a pharmacist. None of them are particularly afraid of illness and death. They're a pretty tough group. They made sure their mother's lips were wet while she was no longer eating or drinking and tried to make her comfortable and they're around the death bed and they were kind of getting along, you know. It wasn't family-fued at mother's death time. And that was kind of nice. And she died. And that was that. But it wasn't just that, because the fact

that the family had coped with it well and nobly, and honorably, I would say, brought them together. They were closer afterwards than they were before. And they all had more respect for their father. And then in the old folks home, he met another woman who had a husband there who had Alzheimer's. And they got to know each other. And he died after a while. and she died after a while and then a few months later they started going out and then eventually they had a relationship and now they lived together and so he gained something.

Like it wasn't that he replaced what he lost, you know what I mean because he still has pictures of his wife up in his house, and she was the love of his life, and that's not going away, but his family respected him more, and everybody pulled together more, and it wasn't hell at the death that it was just tragedy, and the family pulled together more. And that was a good example of how you can extract at least a certain amount of light out of what's dark, even at a personal level. And it's worth asking yourself. It's like, drop what you're doing that's foolish,

that you know is foolish. And pick a name that's worthwhile, you know? To make things better for yourself, like you're worth taking care of, like you're worth something, you know? And to surround yourself with people who believe the same and who are rejoicing in your accomplishments and unhappy when you fail, right? And you're comparing yourself to your accomplishments of yesterday and not to someone else's today so that you're

not jealous and bitter. And you put your own house in order so that you're not cursing the world when some of its disarray might be your fault. And you're trying to pursue something meaningful and you're doing your best to tell the truth and all of that. And then you see, what happens? Who the hell are you? You know, you think you're a miracle of some bloody bizarre sort? We've been around for three and a half billion years. You know, every single one of your relatives propagated successfully.

And here you are against all possible odds in this world of hell in some sense, and bitterness and tyranny and malevolence. And yet God only knows what's inside you, this capacity for consciousness, the capacity to confront potential and to turn it into something good. That's us, man. That's the Western story. That's the individual as the cornerstone of the state. That's our responsibility, and it really is who we are.

And so we need to know that and we need to remember it and we need to act it out. And then maybe we can see what we can do about it, you know? And see how good we could make things. And maybe that would be the purpose of your damn life, right? Not to be happy. It's like, there's problems to be solved. Be happy after you solve the goddamn things, right? So I learned because I looked at dark things that I learned that the light was more powerful than the darkness as far as that I was concerned and that people were

capable, each of us have remarkable things, and that we need to know that that's what we are, where this consciousness that confronts potential with all its catastrophe, that's what we are, that's what makes us in the image of God, that's what gives us our intrinsic value. And that idea that we have intrinsic value, that's the bedrock presupposition of our state. We're gonna question that, or we're gonna live it out, better to live it out, find out who you are.

Thank you very much. I'll be right back. Thank you very much. That is a long way to come enjoy the state. That is right. I mean, you were not messing around tonight. That was incredible. Those last 20 minutes. It's just incredible. Thank you, sir. Alright, so now we're going to try to plow through as many questions as we can, all right? Okay, okay, I'll try to pull up. Here we go. I thought this was the most important one that I saw.

I got 73 upvotes, which was the most tonight. Do you think Joe Rogan is as deep and sophisticated as he seems or is he just a stoner? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha those characters who's not a formal intellectual, but often really smart people who have taught themselves, you know, and sort of come up in the world through their own devices, have an original intelligence that's not so obvious among, say, the more classically university educated, more cookie cutter. And Joe is a, he's a remarkable guy. I mean, you think he's tough as a boot. That's the first thing. He's a fighter. That's, that takes a lot of bravery. He's damn funny. Like pro level funny. His net and, and, and, and often viciously funny. The thing he did on the Kardashians, that was just, man, I just couldn't believe that he would go he did on the Kardashians, that was just man.

I just couldn't believe that he would go that far. It was just, my jaw just kept opening more and more as he became more and more of, he was just like what gargoyle on a bedpost, right? Whispering in, in Jenner's ear. Yeah, God, very politically incorrect, very funny. And he's very brave and he knows that there's a lot of things he doesn't know, so he's got a really intelligent humility. So I'll ask intelligent questions, and you know, so he's been successful at like five things. So he's certainly not just a stoner, that's for sure.

I got lots of respect for him The quick follow-up on that obviously is will the two of us smoke a blunt on stage Did you have one? Sure it could be a rain No, no probably that wouldn't be I think it's still illegal here, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. One guy said no. It's not illegal in Canada. I'll tell you, we just made it legal.

And now everyone is stoned all the time, especially in the winter when you should be stoned. Do your best Aussie accent saying, good day, might? No way. I'm not doing that. No way. No, I can't do jokes on command. It makes me turn red and then I sweat and I have this rule that I don't say things

that make me turn red and sweat. So I'm doing now. They went funny, this group, who would win in a cage fight between a serotonin-filled lobster and a petted house cat? And a what house cat? A petted house cat. A petted house cat. That's all the time. Well, I would defend on the size of the lobster. And a what house cat? A petted house cat. A petted house cat.

Well, I would depend on the size of the lobster. Right, I mean, equal weight. I bet on the lobster. Equal weight, I bet on the lobster. It was a 60 pound lobster that there'd be no competition. One snip, that'd be that. But equal weight, the lobster would win. I like how he can give a scientific answer to you

than that. Especially underwater. That's what. That's what. Ha, ha, ha. This is a good one. What does the B in Jordan B? Peter's instead for.

It stands for Barrent. Now, it's a Norwegian name. And it means bear, and not the naked kind, the other kind. It was my great grandfather's name and he built a boat and sailed it from Norway to New York with like 14 other people. He was so, and he was quite the cool character. He was a blacksmith and a bit of a mechanical engineer. He built farm equipment for his farm in Saskatchewan. He homesteaded there. They built a log cabin.

They cleared the land. It was tough work, tough life. And he raised my father mostly. My father admired him greatly. He died when I was fairly young, but I remember him. And so, that's where the bearant comes from. You're stuck on an island, and you can only bring three things. What are they? Well, a powerboat with a lot of gas.

Peterson. Three things. Well, an axe, like obviously, you definitely need an axe, a knife, that would be good. Knife axe axe, Flint, that would be good. Hey, isn't it the Australian guy? I might be wrong about this, but there's this YouTube show I watch about this guy who goes out and I think I'm out back,

like with nothing. He just wears shorts, and he goes out there and builds little cities. You know, what's it called? Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. I mean, I think that guy is absolutely unbelievable. You know, it's so fun to watch him. It's like, well, I've got some shorts, then he goes out and he gets a stick and a rock and he makes an axe and then he cuts down a bunch of trees, small trees, and he makes a house, and then he builds a floor, and then he builds a, like a heated floor, which is really quite cool,

and then he builds a water wheel, and it's, it's amazing, it's amazing to watch him, but I'd still, I'd still go for the axe. I'd like the axe and the knife and the flint, and I think I could maybe not die instantly if I had those three things. I'm going to read this one just because it's like, man, they've got the most influential public intellectual we've got, and this was the question they came up with. So I just have to read it. I guess I'd bring my wife, too, but I don't think that would make her very happy. It's back when I was having my wishes. I'm on the island.

A genie shows up. You get three wishes. Axe, Pooth, Knife on the island, a genie shows up, you get three wishes. Axe, poof, knife, poof, wife, poof. It's like, what the hell did you bring me to this island for? I don't think that'd be good. All right, well, wait till this one. Who is your pick to win the WWE Universal Championship at WrestleMania this year,

Seth Rollins or Will Brock Lesnar retain? It's Brock, it's Brock for sure. It's Brock. I have no idea who Brock is, by the way. The main thing that is out there. All right, let's shift gears a little bit. How many upfotes did that question get? That one got 12.

12. That's really what 12 of you wanted to know. You don't want to know how many you're asking what kind of underwear you wear. I'll tell you what kind of underwear I'm wearing. All right. I've never done this before. It's funny. My wife bought me underwear with mousse on them.

I have to tell you that because that's a Canadian thing. Like underwear. Not underwear. Like underwear with mousse. I just couldn't believe she bought me these. They're actually quite nice, so I just couldn't believe she bought me these and they're actually quite nice which I also can't believe because I don't understand how red underwear covered with mousse can also be nice but as far as underwear go they beat the hell out of tidy whiteies says the guy wearing a blue tie with

lobsters on it hey well I keep getting these as gifts, man. You don't can't believe how much lobster-themed clothing there is. All right, let's shift gears a little bit. Has the sudden rise to fame over-inflated inflated your ego and if so, how do you regulate it? Oh, I married. LAUGHTER APPLAUSE Well, you know, more importantly, I married to someone who's very sensible. And she doesn't let things go to her head, really. She doesn't get overly upset and desperate when things are overly upsetting and desperate.

And she doesn't get overly enthusiastic and narcissistic when things are going well. She's very level-headed. And when we've been through a lot, we're not kids, my wife, and I were both damn near 60. And we've had our kids, and we have grandkids, and we've traveled all over the world, and met all sorts of people, and done all sorts of things.

And so we're reasonably sensible, and to the degree that we're not, we sort of butt up against each other and try to make ourselves slightly more sensible than we are. And so that's helpful. And also over the last couple of years, you know, I've had people, I've been watching very carefully because, well, especially for the first year and a half, because I was always one utterance away from complete, bloody disaster. And so, I was watching what I was saying and doing very carefully,

but I had people around me who were doing the same, you know, my wife being foremost, my two kids who were both awake, you know, and careful, and they were keeping a close eye on things, and my parents are still alive, and they were keeping a close eye on things, and my parents are still alive, and they were watching as well, and I have a group of friends, some whom I lost some friends, but I kept a number of them, and they were watching very carefully and letting me know when I was not, you know, a little too angry maybe, or a little too a cervic or arrogant, all those things, they'd let me know right away.

And so, and I've been a psychologist for a long time and I know, especially from reading Carl Jung about the danger of ego inflation, it's not something that you want to mess with, it's very dangerous. And, you know, I tell these archetypal stories a lot. And I learned from young 30 years ago that knowing the stories doesn't make you the archetype. And that's very, very, very important to understand. And so I try to be cognizant of my shortcomings, which are

manifold and to be grateful. That's a good thing, you know, like tonight, here you all are, and I'm really happy about that. Please do about that. And I would say, grateful is a rough word to use, because it's kind of, it's been overused, you know, it's been, it's been used by people who, it's been used to signal a virtue that is non-existent often. But I am grateful for this because it's so unlikely, you know, that there's 5,500 of us here sitting together in peace and tranquility and harmony, trying to think hard about what we should be doing in our lives and how we can make ourselves better in a non-naive and non- what would you call it? It's that there's a kind of striving for goodness that isn't virtuous and I think it's the praying and public kind. I'm against poverty, sign kind. I'm hoping what this is is that it's the old original sin

kind. It's like, yeah, Christ, there's plenty wrong with me. And I include myself in this all the time. I know there's plenty wrong with me. It could be done about it even a little bit, and maybe that would make things a bit better for everybody. And maybe that's a noble goal. And maybe we can come and have a serious conversation

about that for two hours and think hard about it. And maybe we can turn around our lives a little bit. And because I think we can do that, and that it's possible for each person to make things around them way better than they are. You know, not always because sometimes you're in such a dire goddamn situation that basically all you've got is a hope for slightly less hell. But man, you can make a huge difference in your life to take care of yourself properly

and a huge difference in your family's life and a huge difference in your life to take care of yourself properly, and a huge difference in your family's life, and a huge difference in your community's life. And it would be so good if we could, people wonder, well, what's the meaning of life? Like, what's it all about? What's, what justifies the suffering, and the misery, and all of that? It's like, well, that's what justifies it.

It's like you put yourself up against that. You think, okay, with all of this pushing against me, how much can I push back? Could I move the horror and inch back with all the strength that I have at my disposal? Man, an answer to that is, yeah, you can. It makes you better with regards to yourself, but it also makes the world a better place.

And so, well, so, you know, more of that. And you don't want to be, you don't want to be, you don't want to be narcissistic or egoistic about that, because it just gets in the way. You know, and one of the things I learned from Solzhenits and this was an unbelievably useful man, this is a pronoun thing. This is a pronoun thing. About 30 years ago I came across this website that was that had been produced by this guy who was a paranoid schizophrenic and he was an aerospace engineer in England and he was no fool. He's a real genius. He put together a really interesting site. And he had this delusion, he had developed this delusion that he was the center of the world.

And he had this really complicated explanation because he lived in the geographic center of England. And he thought of England as the center of the word that it spread around the world. And he lived right in the middle of the town that was in the geographic center. And so his schizophrenic fantasy had put him at the center of the world, the center. And he'd made a very elaborate web page about all of this. And then, and so I was thinking about that, the center of the world. I was also reading Solzhenitsyn at the same time in Solzhenitsyn said, you know, that the world is constituted.

And this is one of the fundamental axioms of Western civilization is the world is constituted so that each person is a center of the world. Like literally, we can understand this because we can't understand how something could be constructed so that that could be the case, because we're used this because we can't understand how something could be constructed so that that could be the case because we're used to things having one center. But the universe isn't like that, it has multiple centers. Every conscious being is a center and a center of infinite scope in some sense, you know, like bounded but infinite, which is also very difficult to understand. And there's a big difference between being the center of the world and the center of the world. So if you remember that you're the center of the world, then you stay sane.

But as soon as you start thinking that you're the center of the world, well then, you're just done. And it's not going to be helpful. And even if you are doing the best you can, you invite everyone else along. It's like, I'm doing the best I can, but there's way more work to do, man. Everybody needs to participate. And everybody's participation, that's the other thing that's so weird about it. Everybody's participation is vital. There isn't anybody that it is not okay for anyone not to be in the game. You know, and I don't understand that exactly as well, but that also has something to do with our like our being made in the image of God and the central value and divinity of our consciousness. The consciousness that gives rise to being itself.

These are truths. These are truths. It's consciousness that gives rise to being from possibility. And that's us, that's what we do. And we decide, is it going to be better, is it going to be worse? And if it's better, well, that's on you, man. Because you made it a little better. And if it's worse, that's on you too.

And that's your destiny every day. And that's what gives you your intrinsic value. And the meaning of your life, the significance of your life, and the effect of you on the structure of reality itself. That's all you. and it's a miracle. And that is why I believe fully, that's why it says in Genesis, that human beings are made in the image of God. God is what extracts order from chaos, from potential.

I don't think that can be said in any way that's more true than that. And it's a hell of a thing to contemplate. And especially when you think that you actually believe it, you know, because you do believe that you have intrinsic value. Our whole legal system is predicated on the idea that you have intrinsic value. Even if you're a murderer, even if you're accused of something absolutely high-ness, there's still something about you that has value outside of the dictates of the state, and you treat other people like that, that you know if you're gonna have a friendship with someone or an intimate relationship or

love for a child or a parent, you treat them as if they have intrinsic and transcendent value. It's like well is it true or not? And if it's true, well, maybe it's an inexhaustible source from which you can draw. It's possible. It seems to be the case. So that's that answer. Well here's a segue. Will you run for Prime Minister of Australia? People ask me that in People ask me that in different places. I've talked to lots of politicians, and I'm talking to more of them all the time. And I'm not interested in politics so much. I don't think I have the temperament for it to tell you the truth, because I don't

think I could take the... I don't really think I could take the, what is it? It's sort of the vicious boxing. You know, like I have a reputation, I guess, of enjoying conflict, but I don't enjoy conflict at all. It really bothers me actually, but I don't shy away from it either. And that's because I know that sometimes, and this is what I've learned from being a clinical psychologist in part, a serious clinical psychologist is like, if I walk into a room and there's trouble, I'm not going to pretend

that the trouble isn't there. I won't do that. I'll point it out. And so that kind of makes me annoying often. And but I can't stand it. If I can see it and everyone's pretending, you know, there's an elephant under the carpet and everyone is shifting in their chairs as the elephant moves and they're all smiling away stupidly as if everything's okay. It's like, I'm not doing that. I'm going to point it out. And I don't like that because if it's usually not an elephant either It's usually some god-awful monster and it's been there for a long time and no one wants to admit to its existence And so that makes for difficult conversations, but I don't enjoy them But I know perfectly well that things that you hide grow and I enjoy that a hell of a lot less

So anyways, I'm not I'm not interested in politics. I don't believe because I don't think I have the temperament for it. But I am interested in aims. And I am interested in trying to figure out what we should be aiming at because we need a new story. We're all bloody petrified in one way or another and cynical about the possibility of multiple apocalypses because one isn't enough, and we don't have a counter story. It's like,

okay, well here's a bunch of ways that things could go to hell in a hand basket. It's like, well, what could we build instead? You know, who knows what we could do? We could irrigate all the world's deserts. You know, that might be a good thing to do. I mean, maybe we want some desert. That'd be, we can keep some desert, but we could irrigate the dam deserts if we could get our, if we could become sophisticated enough with regards to our technological use of energy. It's not like we're going to run out of energy. It's like the world's, the universe is made out of energy and matter. We're not gonna run out of it. You know, I mean, and we could make sure everybody had

a high quality education and that child mortality was cut to almost nothing and that we were taking full advantage of everyone's talents to the best of our ability. And like, I'm interested in establishing these aims. And so, and I'm working on that with all sorts of people in Canada and the United States into some degree in Australia and in other countries trying to understand, well, we need a no-believe for Christ's sake. What the hell? We've got all this technological

power and it's multiplying like mad and all this wealth, it's like, what could we make the world into? Let's find out. What the hell, you know, we've got to stake our lives on something and that's better than politics that. It's better than it's a better role for me. All right, so we got time for one more. What is a great day for Jordan Peterson look like? Well, there's a couple of kinds of great days, I would say. It's a great day if I have a chance to spend it with my wife and my kids. That's generally a great day. I get along very well with my wife and my kids. That's generally a great day.

I get along very well with my kids and I get along as well as anybody would want to with my wife. And so, well, and I say that specifically because if you're fortunate in your partner, you have someone to contend with, not someone that you just always get along with. You have someone that you're contending with.

There's a story in the Abrahamic stories where it's Joseph, Jacob becomes Israel. I believe I'm hoping that's right. He's kind of a trickster and and and he causes all sorts of trouble and at one point When he's going back to reconcile himself with his estranged brother He sends his family across the river and is laying on the banks alone and an angel comes to wrestle with them It's actually God and they wrestle all night and Weirdly enough Jacob wins and God dislocates his hip because he's God. He's not going to let you just walk away. So he dislocates his hip and then he renames him Israel and Israel

means he who struggles with God. And that's something really worth knowing, man. You know, because what that means is that at the basis of our most profound stories is the notion that the founder of the holy state is the person who wrestles with God. And that doesn't mean believe in God, you know, that doesn't what it means. It means contends. It's like this is this reality that confronts us is a rough and harsh place. It's not for the weak of heart. It's not for the faint of heart. It's for the person who wants to step forward and contend.

And it turns out that if you're that person, you wrestle with God, which means that you try to defeat it. Defeat, there's a victim to be to attain victory, even over God, of all the strange things. And that's what makes you part of the holy state. It's like it's an unbelievable idea. And I think it's so realistic that you want something to contend with. And if you have a good marriage, and maybe if you have good friendships for that matter, you have someone to contend with,

and in my wife I have someone to contend with, and it's the case with my children as well, not to the same degree, because they're my children, but it's a good day when I have a chance to spend it with them. And then this is a good day, you know, which is why we keep doing this. You know, like, I think all the days we've done this have been good.

Don't you think? It's been unbelievable, man. I mean, and I do mean literally unbelievable. Every night, you think, wow, wow, really this is going to happen again. We're going to bring 3,000 people together. And this is what we're going to talk about and It's going to be serious and we're going to like aim high and and and think critically and have a genuine discussion and and everyone's going to be Like locked on to that. That's amazing and so yeah, these are good days Which is why we keep doing them and so those are two kinds of good days.

And I'm fortunate to have them with a fair degree of regularity. So. Well that right there is how you circle up a show. So I'm gonna get out of the way and make some noise for Dr. Jordan Peters and everybody Thank you guys for coming out tonight Thanks Steve Thank you everyone. Much appreciated. It's very good of you to take the time to come out tonight. It was a great pleasure to be here in Melbourne.

And I'll be back, I guess, in two weeks. Good night. If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up Dad's books, maps of meaning, the architecture of belief, or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life and Antidote to Chaos. Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B Peterson podcast. See JordanB Peterson.com for audio, e-book, and text links. We'll pick up the books at your favorite bookseller. Remember to check out JordanB Peterson.com slash personality for information on his new course.

Follow me on my YouTube channel, Jordan B Peterson. On Twitter, at Jordan B Peterson. On Facebook, at Dr, Jordan B. Peterson, on Twitter, at Jordan B. Peterson, on Facebook, at Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, and at Instagram, at Jordan.B. Peterson. Details on this show, access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events, and my list of recommended books can be found on my website, JordanB Peterson.com. My online writing programs designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand themselves in the present, and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future can be found at selfauthoring.com, that selfauthoring.com, from the Westwood One Podcast Network. from the Westwood One Podcast Network.