The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Prophecy, Revelation, & the Spiritual Battle | John Rich

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Dr. Jordan Peterson sits down with country music artist John Rich. They discuss his new independent song release “Revelation,” the balance of artistic and commercial merit, recognizing constraints that detract from your proper orientation, discerning the spirits from the shadows, and what terrifies Jordan about the biblical Christ. John Rich is a multi-platinum hit generator and music industry leader whose creative talents are matched only by his business savvy. He is also a proud father of two sons and recently celebrated his 13th wedding anniversary. Whether through a raucous party anthem or a sober reflection on hard times in the heartland, Rich’s ability to capture the American zeitgeist in song has made him one of the most successful and prolific entertainers in the music business today. In 2011, Rich impressed Donald Trump and American TV audiences with his business acumen and leadership skills, becoming the winner of Donald Trump’s Celebrity Apprentice and raising $1.5 million for St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital. Now, Rich is applying his talents to his latest venture, a lifestyle brand called Redneck Riviera that launched in 2014 with an apparel line geared to what he dubs the “work hard play hard” crowd. This episode was recorded on July 26th, 2024  - Links - For John Rich: On X https://x.com/johnrich?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor On Insta https://www.instagram.com/johnrichofficial/?hl=en “Revelation” on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/album/2d4WSrynmAtScmsuVvzffn “Revelation” on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk6YPFCUaqA 

Hello everybody. So I had the privilege of speaking with musician John Rich today, and we really focused on a new song he released called Revelation. And I guess we hit that from two different perspectives because by John's testimony, the song came to him like a revelation, the lyrics and the music sort of pre-made, and that's a fairly common phenomena among expert musicians. And I wanted to delve into the psychological preconditions for that to occur. It's a very religiously oriented song. And so we talked about his movement away from the typical studio musician relationship and his foray into being an independent musician, why that happened and what it meant and how it freed him up creatively. And we also talked about the psychological and theological or spiritual implications of the song because the song itself, Revelation, is a,

what is it? It's a revelation of the spirit of the book by that name. And so we talked about all of that and the personal elements of it too, because Rich regards himself as somewhat of a prodigal son who went way out as a young man into the domain of extreme temptation and then straightened out his life. And so we also discussed why he did that and how he realized that that was necessary and what that has meant to him as a man and as a father, as a musician and as an agent of public influence as well. So, join us for that. Hello, sir. Well, we might as well jump right into this.

I listened to your song, Revelation, three or four times on the way over here. And I guess I'm kind of curious, you made some references to it, making the case that it kind of came to you in a way that was different. If I understand properly, it was different from many of the songs that you've written. And so you want to lay out the structure of the song for people who haven't heard it yet. And then we can talk about the inspiration behind it and also what it is that you're trying to

either understand or convey. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. I've watched you a long time and I've written over 2000 songs in my career. So I'm 50. I started right on the road at 19 years old. So I've got 31 years of being on the road and writing songs and making music videos

and all those things. And this particular song, it was November of 2023, minding my own business, not thinking about writing a song of any type, much less this one. And out of nowhere, it felt like a, it felt like almost like a wave hit me from behind, like something you didn't expect,

felt like a hammer hit me in the back of the head. And I had this melody with these lyrics rolling with it, firmly implanted in my mind, almost like a download that hit my brain. And it was saying, oh, revelation, I can feel it coming like a dark train running. Oh, get ready, because the king is coming, the king is coming back again.

And it just was rolling over and over, almost like when you've heard a song before and it gets stuck in your head, that's what it felt like except this song didn't exist, except it's stuck in my head and rolling. And so I thought, okay, I guess I should probably write this down. I mean, the hair on my arms was standing up at that point.

So I pulled the guitar off the wall, grabbed a pencil, grabbed a notepad, went to a quiet room in my house, and I sat down and started to write what I was hearing in my head. Wrote the chorus first, and then spent some time writing these verses, and in not very much time, the song, Revelation, was written.

Well, that's when you, as a songwriter, that's when you pull out your iPhone, you turn on the voice notes because you don't want to forget what you just played. So you make a little work tape is what we call it in Nashville, you turn on the record button and I sang it into the phone and then put my earbuds in

and just walked around the house listening to it over and over and over again. And I had this, just this like, basically chills all over myself hearing this thing coming back, because I felt like I didn't even write that. Truly, that's what it, like, where did this come from? How did, why did this happen? Where did it come from?

And after about an hour of listening to it, walked over to the window of my house and I looked up and I said, what do you want me to do with this? Because this is, this is not Because this is not a hit song. Like this is not something you would write ever and if you did, you definitely wouldn't probably put that out. What do you want me to do with it?

Because I knew where it came from. And the message I got back, the phrase that hit me was take it all the way to the mat. Take it all the way. Meaning, what I took from that was, every bit of skill you've got, every bit of know-how you have over these past 30 plus years,

make that audio as great as you possibly can, and make a video that is as compelling as you can possibly come up with. And when you get those two things done, blast it out to the world as wide and as far and as loud as you possibly can. That was the task. I felt like I'd been tasked with this.

And so, wrote the song in November, in February of 24, we shot this video, which if people haven't seen this video, I urge you after this interview to go find it. It's just look up John Rich Revelation and you'll find it. And the video is depicting spiritual warfare. It's depicting what's going on on the other side of what the Bible calls the veil. If you could see on the other side of the veil,

what would that look like? What would it look like to see good and evil actually battling it out, outside of the physical realm? So the video is actually my attempt anyway, of showing people what it would look like if that was happening. So we got that done. And then the thought was, okay, how do we get this out there?

Because I don't have a record deal, I don't have a publishing deal, I don't work for anybody, doctor, nobody. Which I used to think was a bad thing. You know, when you grow up your whole life and your American dream is I wanna land a big record deal, I wanna be on country radio, I wanna write hit songs, which I did all those things.

And so to not be on a record label, to step away from that industry at the time seemed like a terrible thing. But what I've realized, especially with a song like Revelation, is that if I still had a record deal, if I was still answering to a big company, this song would have never been heard by anyone.

They would have taken this song, shoved it off on a shelf and said, okay, cool song, John, what else you got? They would have never promoted this. So I don't have that physical machine behind me, but I do have a spiritual machine behind me. And I did what he told me to do. He gave me the song. He told me to make it as great as I could. I did that. Then he said blast it out there. So I did that. So at that point, I said, all right, what's on you now? Do what you will.

You're my booking agent and you're my marketing director. So I have at it boss. And next thing I know, doctor, this thing has got millions and millions of views. Tucker Carlson is calling. I'm going on his show, did his show, people like yourself start reaching out and going, hey, let's talk about this for a minute.

And then online, it's unbelievable what has happened with this. And I think that speaks to the nature of where it came from, that it was thrust upon me. And trust me, it's somewhat of an unnerving experience to take a song like that about that subject and just blast it right out, especially knowing how our culture works these days

and how much pushback you're gonna get from people or look at you funny or whatever. But nevertheless, I was told to do it, so I did it. So that brings us to this conversation where, to me, the song is what it is and it says a lot. I mean, it says a whole lot and we can go through those lyrics. What it's really done is it crowbarred the door open

just enough where we get to have the big conversation, the really big, more than just a three and a half minute song. We get to go in depth now and talk about what that song really means and where we really are today. Well, let's do that. I got a couple of questions from what you just said, but then I would like to walk through it lyric by lyric and discuss that. I think that would be very, very interesting. I do some piano improvisation for what it's worth, and one of the things I've noticed that's quite strange is that if I haven't played for a while and I sit down, I usually have something new right at hand.

It's as if there's something operating in the background that's continually working that I'm not really aware of, but that's available. Like I only play out, I suppose, every couple of weeks because I'm on the road so much and moving around. But there is a stream of melody that's running in the back of my mind. It appears to be constant in some ways because it's there when I play. And that's running in the back of my mind, it appears to be constant in some ways because it's there when I play. And that's very interesting. It's interesting to speculate about why that might be the case.

You said with this song that it was both melody and lyrics that came to you. And you said that that was different from other experiences of musical writing that you've had. So I would like to know how it differed, but I'd also like to know, there's something else you said that's quite curious, which is that when you wrote the song,

and perhaps at the moment, I don't know your contractual arrangements at the moment, but that you're not beholden to any record label or any industry. And so I guess one of the things you might suppose is that you think that freed up your creative imagination in a way that was new and allowed this to sort of spring forth. Like do you think there's a relationship between the fact that you're not bound by industry contractual obligations or even by the necessity of serving a particular market that increased

the probability that you would have a song like this enter the theater of your imagination? Yes, so let me take those questions. So first question is, why is this, how do you normally write a song? I think basically is your question. Yeah, yeah. I've written over a couple of thousand songs in my career. Generally, when you're writing a song

to try to write a hit song, which is what I have always tried to do, you've got a particular thing, you kind of looking at the trend in my world to be country music, you're looking at the trends of what hit songs are sounding like right now. You look at the top 40, go what's hitting,

what's not hitting. And so you try to land in that kind of a vein of a song and then you'll sit around and think up song titles or think up some angle of how to come out a love song or a sad song or a party song or whatever it is you're trying to write. And then you'll go after it. And you may write eight or 10 trying to land

that perfect one that sounds like it's a hit where all the factors are about it, it's just got that hit factor to it. I've also written a lot of songs for other people. So I've had songs, everybody from Taylor Swift to Faith Hill, Gretchen Wilson. I mean, if you go look me up, it's a lot of songs. And those instances, they'll come to me and say,

I want you to write me a song about that, about this. I want it to sound like this and talk about that and be X, Y, Z. Like they gave you really specific instructions as to what they're trying to cut. So I call that sniper songwriting. That's like, okay, they showed me the target. Now I gotta find that target and I gotta hit it

with this song, whatever that is. And I've had a lot of success doing that as well. Revelation was neither of those things. Revelation, I wasn't even in a songwriting frame of mind. Like you're talking about your music. That hits you as a musician. Sometimes you're just in the frame of mind. It's just, wow, I just, okay.

I feel like my mind has opened up right now on the musical side. I feel the incoming. It's like Tom Petty. I got to sit with Tom Petty one time at a songwriter conference in Los Angeles. And a lady out in the audience says, Mr. Petty, how do you get your ideas for your songs?

And Tom Petty goes, he slouched back in the chair and he goes, well, I just stretched my antenna out there and wait for a song to pass across it like that. He has stick my antenna out and wait for one. And there's a lot of truth to that when you're a songwriter or a musician. Revelation was none of those things. This was something that hit me out of nowhere.

I used the word thrust upon me. It was downloaded to me. And I had no choice but to sit down and put pencil to paper and try to capture what this was and bring it into the physical. All right, so number of things there. So one of the ways that you distinguished what you had been doing previously from whatever

happened when you produced this song or when this song came to you was that it was funny while you were talking, I wrote down the word target before you said the word, right? So one of the ways you can think about your imagination operating is that your imagination and your verbal thoughts are what would, they search for abstract ways of moving you forward to a goal. And so you specified the goal, you said that you were attempting to hit with your more commercial work.

You said you familiarize yourself with what was popular. So that means you're communicating with your audience. Comedians kind of do that when they go to their clubs before they do a big tour and they try out jokes, right? You kind of want to see what's hot in the popular culture and hit that. And then you said as well that you're listening to Top 40, you're aiming at something commercial, and that's the target and that people are actually hiring you for that. And then you said as well that you were, you're listening to Top 40, you're aiming at something commercial,

and that's the target, and that people are actually hiring you for that. So in some ways, you're harnessing your imagination to that end. And obviously that's been extremely successful, as you pointed out, because you've written, you can do that, you have the ability to do that. But it also means that, and this isn't a criticism,

it's an observation, it also means that, and this isn't a criticism, it's an observation, it also means that you're subordinating your creative imagination, or you're directing your creative imagination to something approximating a commercial goal. Now, you know, there's artistry in that. I have a friend named Greg Hurwitz, who, very, very smart guy, and he writes popular,

slick, popular, movie-oriented fiction. You know, and that's his niche. And that's a valid niche. It's sort of the niche that film noir came out of. And there's art in hitting that target squarely. But that is quite a lot different from, you might say, that's quite a bit different from letting your imagination or the revelation take you wherever it will.

Now you said, you also didn't exactly have the luxury, so to speak, to do that if you're bound by contractual obligation to people who expect you to produce hits, and you can understand why, because things have to be commercially successful. So when did you stop being bound by those sorts of contractual obligations

that were directing you more in the specifically commercial direction? It's been probably six or seven years at this point. And the way that that began, that relationship began to unravel was for a long time, I played their game. People think Nashville, Tennessee is, that's all the good country boys and girls.

And what they don't realize is, is Music Row, Nashville, Tennessee, it's owned by the same, basically the same big three companies that own Hollywood. It's Sony, Universal, and Warner Brothers. And between those big three conglomerates, you got 90% of every record label wrapped up there. So it's the same ideology of the Hollywood companies

just now in Nashville. And so because of that, the presidents, those labels, the head of their A&R departments, now not all of them, but most of them that are in charge. It was coming down to me that, hey, we really don't want you to go on that network. We really don't want you to talk about that subject. We really don't want you to post about this.

Hey, John, we you to post about this. Hey John, we need to have a meeting. This is too controversial. And I played that game with him for a while because you know, you got a lot on the line there, man. I mean, you've been working at this your whole life. You've got records coming out. You've got band and light guys and sound guys

and bus drivers and you know, all kinds of people's income depend on you maintaining your career. And so I played that game for a little while, but at one point it got to the point where I said, you know what, my two sons were getting old enough to really start paying attention to me. They're 14 and 12 now. This point they were probably seven and nine.

And I said, well, what kind of example is that for me to set for these boys? I mean, I'm gonna sit here and rant and rail against the system and how bad it is, but then I'm gonna shut my mouth and put on my gear and walk down a red carpet with these people and still go in here and do what they're telling me to do. So at that point I said, so my integrity is for sale

and my freedom of speech apparently is for sale. It has a price tag because that's the game I'm playing right now. And when my boys got old enough where I realized they saw what I was doing, it hit me really hard, man. I mean, really hard because if it's this bad for me, what's it gonna be like for my boys when they grow up and leave?

They're gonna run right into the buzzsaw and their blueprint is, well, how did dad handle it? Well, dad just rolled over and kept taking the paychecks, what dad did, so I guess that's the right way to do it. I said, yeah, we're not gonna let that happen. So we broke away from that system, broke away from the record labels, the publishing companies and all those levers of power that exist over music.

Now, because of that, I've never had another hit song at country radio. I've never had another song that, you know, blew up like that, like some of our big career songs. But the inverse of that is, the people out there, the American people that know I don't have that system in place behind me anymore,

if I give them content that strikes them, whatever that is, if it moves them, here they come. And I would say that I think that the amount of support I have today out there amongst just the general public as compared to back when I had a record deal has multiplied three or 400%. I mean, I wouldn't go back for anything in the world, never. And so as far as freedom goes, Dr. Peterson,

I've never been more free to do what I wanna do than I am right now. And I will say that a song like Revelation, like I said before, if I still had a contract like that, you guys would have never heard it. And to me that is disconnecting, that is short circuiting what God's plan is for me and for the abilities he's given me and the talent

and the opportunities he's given me. If I'm still connected to some nasty record label that doesn't believe in what I'm doing and what I'm saying that can stop that, well, that had to go away. Even though at the time I really, I hated to lose it because I knew how powerful that is and I'd been at it my whole life. But it wasn't too long after that,

a matter of weeks that I realized, wow, I'm actually free at this point. I'm actually a free man. I can say whatever I want, sing whatever I want, promote it however I want to. And that led to answer your question from earlier, that led to yes, my songwriting, my artistry, and what I wanna do literally became wide open

at that point. I could do whatever I wanted to do, which brought us to this song, Revelation. Okay, okay, okay. So let me, let me weave my way through that a bit here. So you started by talking about the fact that when you wrote the majority of the 2000 songs that you wrote, you did have commercial top 40 success in mind,

and we're often commissioned specifically to do that. And we talked about the fact that there can be real artistry involved in that. Now, but then it sounds like the additional necessity to toe the party line, let's say, started to put constraints on your creative ability, but also on your conscience that began to plague you.

And you said that one of the things that plagued you about that in particular was your sense that you were giving the wrong message to your boys. And they were pretty young when you started thinking about that. So let me ask you two questions about that. The first is what risks do, See, the reason that it bothers me so much to see creative people become ideologically possessed is that the only thing that creative

people have is the genuine creativity of their production, right? And that's really the goose that lays the golden eggs. And that's rather a fragile beast. I mean, first of all, most people don't have it. High level creativity is relatively rare trait. And then it's easily crushed and it only flourishes under some conditions. And one of the conditions it flourishes under by all appearances is something like freedom, right? Now you can, you could, well, you can maybe put a couple of constraints on it as we discussed with regards to your commercial aim.

But if you keep piling on the impossibilities or the arbitrary restrictions, the arbitrary restrictions, then you risk doing yourself damage. So, so two questions there, like what did you notice if anything happening to your ability to write creatively under those constraints? And also like, how did you become aware, for example, that you weren't setting a good example for your boys?

And like, how did you discover that or come to realize that? So under those constraints, your songwriting at that point is completely superficial. It's only to make a check. It's only to make a dollar. It's only to get a plaque. It's only to further yourself, which is highly superficial to me. And so when you start talking about my two sons, well, man, that's as deep as you're

going to get. I mean, there's nothing more important than that to me. And so when I saw that the example I was setting and that they were gonna be following was superficial in nature that, wow, we know dad's a real McCoy, but dad's willing to go superficial if it means he keeps getting that money

and getting those plaques. That is no way to live. I'd rather you be completely broke in your life, poor as a church mouse, but have your constitution about you and have integrity about you and be a real McCoy as we would call them in the country. I'd much rather my boys be that.

I don't care about them what they do when it comes to financial stuff. And so turning that corner and getting away from those shackles of what the industry was limiting me to, turned me loose. I mean, it turned me loose. And for a minute, it's almost like, what, you mean I can actually step over here

and nobody's gonna pop me? Okay, and so I step over there. Well, can I take another step? Yep, and nobody popped me then. As far as the nobody popped me now the press and other people they come at me all the time But the way I look at at people attacking what I have to say is it's validation that I hit the mark It's validation that I said it correctly, you know If everybody likes what you have to say, you're not saying it correctly That's the way I've always thought, and that's the way I feel today.

So it loosened me up, doctor, in such a way that I could, I think, be more of a, just a wide open instrument for whatever comes in that I think's important, that's been laid on me, that's important, then I can make that happen. There's no guarantee it's gonna be a, quote, success, but I can make it a reality. That's all you can really ask for.

I think about the Declaration of Independence when it says we have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't say we have the right to be happy or the right to be successful, the right to be rich or any of these other things. It says you have the right to pursue happiness, to go after it.

The word pursuit in itself means in motion. That means happiness is a moving target. I'm sure you would tell me what's happiness to you in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. Well, it does change as your life changes. So those are the principles that I look at. And at the end of the day, I know who gave me the ability to do it in the first place.

I yielded to him a long time ago. And so if you're yielded to him, to the Lord, and then he knows that you're willing to run through a door that he opens for you, he'll give you stuff, he'll send you things. And revelation is one of those things. Okay, so a couple of questions about that. The first one is, I guess I have three questions really, like

what gave you the sense that you were leading your boys astray? I mean they were very young and the sorts of things that you're talking about are relatively subtle and so was it guilt on your part or was it something that you think they could actually see or was it something that you were afraid they were going to be able to see? You know, like I I'm not clear about the actual details, but what was plaguing your conscience now? I can understand that you were increasingly uncomfortable with the constraints on your free speech and obviously that's at least in part because those constraints pose a danger to your creative ability That's at least in part because those constraints pose a danger to your creative ability

But I still don't quite exactly understand how it was that you became convinced that you were setting the wrong Wrong model. Let's say for your sons. What do you think it was that they were seeing? Was it reflected in the way you were talking to them or or in a bitterness like what what what was going on? Yeah, well, I think we've all found ourselves watching the evening news and going, can you believe these people? Can you believe what's going on in our country right now? Or, you know, they'd overhear me talking to my wife about, can you believe what this record label is doing? Or I just got in trouble for doing an interview

with this guy and they're hearing these things. But then I'll gear back up and walk right back out there and go play ball with the exact same people that I've been yelling at at the house. That's called being a hypocrite. That is the essence of being a hypocrite, which is probably the worst thing you could be. I mean, even in the Bible, it says,

I'd rather you be hot or be cold, but if you're lukewarm, I'll spit you out of my mouth. That was from the son of God himself said that. So you do not wanna be lukewarm. If you're gonna be a bad guy, be a real bad guy. If you're gonna be a bad guy, be a real bad guy. If you're gonna be a good guy, be a really good guy. Don't be in the middle. There's a lot of fence riders.

And so I felt like just looking at myself, I'm trying to ride the fence here with this deal. And I'm commanded to not do that. And so knowing my boys were on the edge of really starting to maybe put those things together bothered me. But what bothered me at that moment was knowing I was bothered by it. I realized that's who I had become

and that's the game I was playing. And I'm not really much of a game player, as you can probably tell. So I said, yeah, I think I'm gonna exit this game. Now I know that means I gotta let go of what I've been doing for 25 years at a high level in this town and I don't know what's what what I'm going to be able to grab onto when I let go of

this one. I'm in free fall for a while, but hey, you got it. So make something make something be there that I can grab onto and he certainly did. So that's really how it played out. I was bothered by it. It was bothering my played out. I was bothered by it. It was bothering my conscience and my spirit was upset by it. And if you can't sleep well at night because you know you're being a hypocrite, you better fix that.

Yeah, well, you see, that's a very interesting observation because I've just written a new book called We Who Wrestle With God and it comes out November 12th. And it's a journey through the characterizations of God in ten Old Testament stories, about ten. There's some forays into New Testament material, but I'm saving most of that for another book. And God is characterized in these stories at least in part in two ways. And one is as the spirit of what calls to you.

So grabs your interest, compels you forward. It fills you with enthusiasm, makes you wanna move towards a goal, makes you wanna hit the target properly. And the other, another characterization is the constraints of conscience. You know, and I think about this biologically and instinctively too, because I think the thing that those things dovetail. It looks to me like conscience, the voice of conscience is something like the voice

of the longest possible term game. So you could imagine that in your situation, there's two forces that are striving inside of you. And one is the forces that say maintain your relationship with what's essentially high level commercial success that comes at the price of pleasing the marketplace and also not displeasing the people who control your access to that. And that's not nothing, as you pointed out, but then your conscience comes up and it's saying something like,

yeah, but you might be giving up something more important here. And you don't want to do that because that's a bad long-term game. Bad for you, bad for your kids, bad for society. It's a bad social game too. And if you play the longer-term game, you might pay a short-term price, right? That's the price you pay for speaking your mind when there's a certain amount of pressure against doing so. But it's an unbeatable long-term game in my estimation if your conscience is clean. Now you said something interesting though too, from the practical perspective, you know, two things.

You said that you let go of a sure thing, although you were paying a price for that, but what you gained in consequence were two things. You gained an increase in creative freedom that was at least in part unexpected, right? That you could now make forays into various, in various directions that you had hesitated to tread on before. I was kind of wondering about how that might have made itself manifest musically, because you can imagine that you might have been restricting yourself with regard to the content of the lyrics, but you might have also been restricting yourself with regard to the plethora

of musical forms that you might introduce into your music. One of the things that strikes me about your music is that you cover a very wide range of genres. So I'm curious about whether your willingness to detach yourself from the dictates of the politicized marketplace increased your musical creativity as well as your lyrical creativity.

And then what was, there was one other thing. Oh yes, the other thing you said was that, the other advantage was that you established a more genuine connection with your audience. And so let's take those apart step by step. So the first thing is when you freed yourself and you stop being in your own words, a hypocrite, what happened to you on the musically creative side

as well as the lyrically creative side? And then let's talk about why the effect that had on your audience and why you think that happened. Do you know what a Tennessee walking horse is? No, what's a Tennessee walking horse? Go look that up after we get through talking. So a Tennessee walking horse is a big, powerful black horse and they start these horses off when they're colts,

and they put these really heavy weights on their front two feet, and they make those horses walk with those for years and years and years and years, even when they're adults. But when they want the Tennessee walking horse to do what the Tennessee walking horse is known for, they take the weights off the feet of the horse,

and they get up and they spruce the horse up and the Tennessee walking horse walks like this and their front feet are just going up and down. And it's one of the most impressive things you've ever seen. And it's because they finally took the shackles off that horse and that horse is like, look at me now. And the rest of the time the horse is like, man, I wish somebody to get this weight off my feet.

I can't, I'm not doing what I'm capable of doing. Please get these off. And then they do. I think it's possibly somewhat cruel, honestly, to do that to those horses. But the same thing would be how I felt, is that, yeah, I could still, just like the horse, I could still walk, I could still run.

You're just weighed down with it. And so the second you break away from that and the chains and the shackles are broken, now you're free. You almost don't know what to do with it. And so the second you break away from that and that the chains and the shackles are broken, now you're free. You almost don't know what to do with it for a little while because you're not used to being able to do what you want to do and say what you want to say without somebody trying to restrain you. And so what that does on the creative side and being a musician, you know this, can you imagine what that does? I mean, once you finally figure out, I can write a song like Revelation if I want to. Like if that's something that hits me hard,

I can write that and I can actually put that out. Yes, you can actually do that. And so, you gotta know this, that when you go look at Jesus Christ and what he talked about, he talked a lot about freedom. He talked a lot about it. He talked about the truth, he talked about, he talked a lot about freedom. He talked a lot about it. He talked about the truth, he talked about freedom.

And he says, the truth will set you free. I mean, what a statement that is. The truth will set you free. So if you look at my situation, was I living truthfully at that point when I was shackled down? No, I wasn't, because I was playing a game. I was living a hypocritical existence at that point.

That's not truthful. So the second I was able to be totally truthful and come on with it exactly how I wanted to do it, which was, that's the truth, here comes the freedom part. They coexist, the truth and the freedom. The truth will set you free. And so that's where I find myself currently, is that we're speaking the truth

and I've never been more free in my life. Now, it doesn't mean it's easy and that everybody likes it. It doesn't say that at all, but it does say those two things absolutely coexist. So what you're seeing in this song, Revelation, and what's happening with that song right now is a result of the truth will set you free. Right, right. Okay. So that, well, that makes sense to me. It also, psychologically, it makes sense to me too,

because, you know, you describe the appearance of that song sort of as a unit and also as a surprise. And because thought and imagination serves aim, I was very curious about what must have or might have transformed in your aim to make that sort of thing possible. The song is reminiscent to me of two other songs that I really like. It's reminiscent of a song, Democracy by Leonard Cohen, which is a very revelatory song. I mean, Leonard Cohen had a lot of revelatory songs, but that's definitely one of them.

And Johnny Cash recorded a great song, When the Man Comes Around, which, but that's definitely one of them. And Johnny Cash recorded a great song, When the Man Comes Around, which is, that's a deadly song. I don't know where the hell that came from. That's a killer. Johnny Cash wasn't playing around with that one. No, that's for sure. That's for sure. That's definitely a hair stands up on the back of your neck song. And that's actually, by the way, that feeling of having your hair stand up on the back of your neck, that's piloerection. So the reason that happens, at least biologically, the reason that happens is for the same reason that a cat puffs up when it sees a big dog. Right. It's an instinctual reaction to something that inspires awe. And people who are high in openness, which is a dimension of creativity, are much more likely to experience

that particular phenomena. And it is a phenomena that emerges when people are in the presence of something that inspires awe. So that's very cool. That's another place where the biology and the divinity seem to unite. Okay, now, all right, so we got that established. So you changed what you were aiming at. Now, you said that that's put you in touch with your audience in a different way,

and also in a way where a lot has come to you in consequence, right? It's been a positive thing. So walk me through that. What's changed, what's changed in how you treat your audience? What's changed in how your audience treats you? What's that meant commercially on tour? What's that meant in terms of how you're promoting and presenting your music in the new media landscape?

Well, I think we all realize now, regardless of your politics or anything else, that we are being lied to, have been lied to, and will continue to be lied to this entire time, your entire life. You've been swimming in a sea of either lies or contorted versions of the truth. And people know that now.

They really have woken up to this. I think when COVID rolled through and we saw and busted them on a lot of their lives, people just were in shock that these people actually would lie to us like that. And they all realize that now. So to answer your question, they know I'm not lying to them. And they know when they hear that song,

for instance, Revelation, you don't write that song as an angle, as a lie, as an angle, as a maneuver, as a way to have a hit. I mean, really? I mean, who would do that? It makes no sense to even do that. I mean, really? I mean, who would do that? It makes no sense to even do that.

So they know that what I'm telling them in my music and also what I talk about in interviews like this one we're doing right now, they know I have absolutely nothing to gain from saying those things. Nothing, nothing this world is gonna bestow upon me. Thank you, John, for singing about revelation. Thank you, John, for talking about spiritual warfare.

Thank you for doing all this. That's never gonna happen. It's quite the opposite of that. So I think my audience has grown because they know I'm not lying to them. They know that if I say it, I mean it. It's an authentic position and I won't back up off of it. Cause they see me get banged up pretty good.

You go on social media and read the comments. It's pretty nasty as I'm sure it is for you sometimes, but you keep coming. And the bigger point of that is when you do what the Lord tells you to do, and it is a difficult thing to do, but you do it anyway, He's told us time and time again in the Word,

if you'll do what I tell you to do, go where I tell you to go and be who I told you to be, if you'll do those things, the world's gonna hate you. A lot of them are gonna hate you, but I'm gonna reward you, and you'll get your reward whenever you get it, but trust me, it's coming. So there's your marching orders.

Now that's a tough set of rules because that is an uncomfortable position just as a human being to step into those things. But my position is I fear him a lot more than I fear them. There's a scripture that says, do not fear the one who can only kill your body. Fear the one who can kill your body and kill your soul. Fear him.

Fear the creator. Fear the alpha, the omega. Fear him. And that is who I fear. And so even though it's an uncomfortable thing sometimes or a nerve wracking thing to come with something like Revelation and then do an interview like this where we're talking about it. It's a lot less scary to do that than not doing what he told me to do.

Right, right. Well, that's interesting. That's very interesting. You know, people often compliment me on my bravery, let's say. And that doesn't sit very well with me fundamentally because that's not actually accurate. It's, I'm just afraid of different things. So for example, like I spent a lot of time

studying totalitarianism, like a lot of time. I spent half my life likely for 40 years studying the psychology of totalitarianism. And what that meant for me was by the psychology of totalitarianism, I was very interested in what it was like to participate in a totalitarian state, to let that take you over. And totalitarian states take you over by requiring your submission to the lie. Like we like to think of a totalitarian state as a state where an evil charismatic leader like Stalin or Hitler or Mao takes over the state and forces otherwise freedom-loving people to over the state and forces otherwise freedom-loving people to bend the knee and and shut their mouths. But that's not how it works. What happens is that a society starts to become possessed by

lies and then everyone starts to lie and eventually everyone lies about absolutely everything they're saying and doing to everyone including themselves and everyone they love, 100% of the time. And that's hell. And if you know that, then you're way more afraid of that than of anything else, because there isn't anything worse than that, including death. And there's plenty of death that accompanies it too. And so part of being willing to abide by the truth, let's say, is getting your fears in order. I kind of think that's what Christ means in the gospels

when he says, get thee behind me, Satan. It's something like you want to have your fear, it's more than this, but it's something like you want to have your fear behind you, pushing you forward in the right direction rather than your fear in front of you stopping you and making you cowardly. It doesn't mean you get rid of the fear, but it's put in the right place. Now, I'm curious about

something here that's quite personal. Like you made a comment earlier about yielding and then obviously you're motivated by religious considerations and so and then you talked more specifically in our last about our last exchange about the truth setting you free and also you being afraid of the judge of your soul, let's say more afraid of that than afraid of public opinion or loss of financial stability or opportunity. How did you come to these conclusions and when? Well, when I was a kid, my dad has been preaching since he was about 19.

He's now in his early seventies. Preaches in a lot of prisons. My dad did a lot of street preaching. Now you wanna talk about a challenge. My dad hit about 34 Mardi Gras in a row, standing on the French Quarter as the parades are coming by, got a guitar around his neck, a little speaker standing next to him,

and he's singing and he's preaching. And the ridicule coming back at him was like a tidal wave. And I've asked him, why did you keep standing there letting them do that to you? And he said, because about one out of a hundred of them would stop and ask me what I was talking about. And then I had a chance to witness to that person on the street. And he goes, the reason I'm not in some big church

somewhere is because the people that really need to hear it are never gonna walk into one of those church buildings. They're out there in the world. They're stuck behind bars. They're at Mardi Gras, wherever they are. So his calling was to go to where they are, go out there in the middle of it and do it. You talk about courageous.

I mean, that's something else. And so I come from that. You gotta understand that if you look at Jesus Christ himself, he went to where the people were. He had a real problem with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the religious elite of his day. He had a real problem with them and they obviously had a real problem with him too. And so he would speak the truth and he was performing miracles. He was drawing big crowds

and man, it was driving them crazy because what are we going to do with this Jesus guy? And so if you follow the example of what he said, we are supposed to speak the truth and go out boldly and speak it knowing that that they're not gonna like it. Matter of fact, he said, if they persecute me, what do you think they're gonna do to you? And he says, rejoice when you're persecuted for bearing my name. Not have a grin on your face or clap your hands, rejoice,

like be exuberant when you are persecuted for bearing my name. Jesus Christ saying this, I mean, that's quite a thing to ask people to do. That runs counter to the entire human condition. But that's the point, that's the point. You can't do those things on your own, doctor. You can't, I can't do it, my dad can't do it,

Billy Graham couldn't do it, anybody you wanna name. It's humanly impossible on your own speed to do those things. But when you accept Jesus and you really do, and I use the word yield on purpose with you, knowing that Jesus existed, knowing all those things, well, the devil knows those things. The devil's been battling him for millennia.

You think he's going to heaven? I don't think so. Knowing it is one thing, but yielding your will, turning yourself over, turning over all authority to him, as it refers to it in the New Testament, as basically being a bond servant to him. You become his property at that point where your will no longer matters.

What your aspirations are do not matter. If you get to that point, that's what an actual saved person is. Okay, well, I got some more questions about that. So you said that one of the influences on you was your father. And so I presume that you respected and admired your father. And so we could talk about that

because that's an important detail. But then, I'm also curious about two other things. How do you distinguish between doing your will, let's say, and pursuing the path of truth? How do you distinguish between those two? I think it was St. Paul who said that we have to test the spirits to see if they're of God, right? And I suppose you might say that there's a certain proportion of religious hypocrites who truly believe, perhaps truly believe, who certainly have told themselves and tell other people that they're walking the straight and narrow path, even though they're not.

You know, deception can reach very deeply into people's hearts. And so I'm curious what it means to you, okay, why exactly you admired what your father was doing and what other sources of revelation led you to the religious realizations that you had. I'm curious about how you know the difference between your will and what should be done, right?

What's the prayer to do the Father's will on earth as it is in heaven? Now it's different than pursuing your own short-term interests, but that doesn't mean, I mean, you can be deluded about that. So how do you know, how do you test your own motivation to determine whether what you're doing is truthful or just another snare of deception?

Let's see, I think one place with respect that I think you are wrong on this subject and that you miss it is that you think human beings have the capability to divine between, decide between left, right, truth, lie, all these things that are going on, and we're just not capable of it. I mean, we are, I'll put it to you this way,

I am not looking at the real Jordan Peterson, I'm looking at what Jordan Peterson lives in for a while. You're not looking at John Rich, I just live in this thing for a while. The real Jordan Peterson lives forever, he's an eternal being, he was created by the creator, and he was put in that body that you're in right now to last as long as it's gonna last,

and then that body's gonna die, and then the real Jordan is released from that body. Same way it goes for me. So the only way a human being can discern what is true and what is a lie is you better have Jesus inside of you because he's the ultimate truth. So when things come at you that are lies, which is every single day, including lies,

you might tell yourself or make yourself think something that's not true, have a notion about something and it seems really strong. You ask him, is that true? Like, am I thinking about this right? And you pray about it and you go, if this is wrong, man, don't let me do that. You know, put me in the right spot.

Even though it seems totally obvious that I should do this in my own eyes, and he will, but the only way that works is if you have yielded to him, turned over the entire control to him, become a bond servant to him, he's the ultimate truth. If a lie comes into contact with the ultimate truth, which one is more powerful at that

point? Is the truth more powerful than the lie? Of course it is. It's the ultimate power, is the real truth. So if you've got the real truth living in you, which is not something you have on your own, we're inherently evil, doctor. We are born into sin. Sin is anything that is less than perfection.

You don't have to be a murderer to be a sinner. You don't have to be something terrible to be a sinner. Anything less than absolute perfection in the eyes of the Lord is sin. So we are sin. We are in a continual state of it and you can't escape it. But the only way you're able to navigate through that and go to heaven when you die

is that you brought the Son of God. You've asked him to come in and turned over your will to him. And so when this body that I have to live in here for a while finally kicks the bucket and I'm out of here and I take off and I stand before the ultimate judge, before the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,

you're standing there looking at them. They're not looking at them. They're not looking at nasty old John Rich in his sinful form. He sees his son. He sees his own son there because you invited him in, you gave your will over to him, and that's who he sees. Well, you think he's gonna let his son into heaven?

Well, of course, because you belong to him. That's what it means to be a child of him. He's gonna let his kids come on in. Perfection is not even anything you can shoot at. Matter of fact, understanding that you live in a constant state of imperfection, that's the point. And for human beings and psychologists and anybody else to go, well, there's a moral compass,

blah, blah, nonsense. Humans don't have the capability, in my opinion, on their own to be moral. We are inherently immoral. We were put in these situations as a test. Even if you live to be 200 years old, it's just like that. He takes something that is eternal, which is your spirit and my spirit.

He takes an eternal situation, places it in a very, very temporary, badly made, very flawed human body, and then the whole entire world is turned loose on us. We can make any decision we wanna make. And the toughest one we have to make is to give up our own control over to the one that created us in the first place.

Okay, so that's the question. That's the place I'd like to drill down into. Two things. So one more practical, which is when you were deciding to move away from the studio and record label life, how did you come to the determination? You mentioned prayer, but how did you come to determine that that was the appropriate path?

That it wasn't just another form of ego game, let's say. I know you said part of it, well, why would anyone do that? There's a big risk in it. And obviously you were, so there's an obvious sacrificial component to that, which speaks of its truth, but I'm really interested in the details.

And then the other issue that I'm curious about is when you talk about prayer and you're using your prayer to discern the truth, let's say, what is it that you're praying for that enables you to benefit from that discernment? What a great question. for that enables you to benefit from that discernment? What a great question. So the Holy Spirit, it says in the Bible that He will send to His children, the real ones,

the ones that have turned it over to Him, that He will send the Holy Spirit to help you and guide you and navigate for you. You have to ask for that. You have to say, you know, you pray and say, please send the Holy Spirit to me because I can't figure this out. I'm having trouble. I don't know what to do. What am I supposed to do right now?

You ask for that and he will send it. And then in your being, you feel if something is, if I'm making a wrong move, am I supposed to go left, right, straight, or not move at all or step back? Which one am I supposed to do? It will become straight, or not move at all, or a step back? Which one am I supposed to do? It will become very clear to you.

It's called discernment. We're told, we're commanded multiple times. If you read Proverbs, you read what King David wrote, discernment was everything. I mean, that's like King Solomon asked for that. King Solomon asked for wisdom and discernment. He wanted to be able to discern,

because it's the hardest thing for a human being to do. How do I know what I'm supposed to do? And if you're only relying on your own physical self to figure that out, you're never gonna get it right, ever. You're never gonna get it right. And so the Holy Spirit, that's who comes in and that is the discernment that you're asking for. Now, he may not tell you the seconds you ask for it,

but if you ask for it and you're serious about it and that's what you really want, he'll send it to you and you'll get it. And so I think to your conversation about the music industry and all that stuff, I could feel it. I could feel he was telling me, it's time for you to get out of here, bud, time to go. Time to go.

And he was things like my kids reacting to things, my wife reacting to go, time to go. And he was, things like my kids reacting to things, my wife reacting to things, me personally reacting to things. That was his way of going, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, pay attention, John, time for you to move. I know you've been doing this your whole life. I know this was your American dream. I know this is what you think you were built to do,

and maybe you were for a period of time. I got something else for you to do. And it's gonna hurt a little bit, but rip and pull you away from it and then put you on the path he wants. It's like, do you know what repentance is? I'll give you a great analogy for repentance. Repentance is, let's say I'm driving down the road

and I look over there on the side of the highway and there's Jesus Christ standing there on the side of the highway and he needs a ride. And I go, that's Jesus standing on the side of the highway and there's Jesus Christ standing there on the side of the highway and he needs a ride. And I go, that's Jesus standing on the side of the highway. So you pull over and you roll down the window and you go, hey, Jesus, come on in, you need a ride? And instead of him getting in on the passenger side, he walks around to your window,

knocks on the window and says, scoot over. And so you do and he takes the steering wheel and does a U-turn and now he's driving the car and he takes you wherever he wants to take you. That's what repentance actually is. It's like, what's the difference between belief and faith? You're sitting in a chair right now, I'm sitting in a chair right now.

The only reason we're sitting in these chairs is because first of all, we walked up to the chairs and we looked at them and we believe those chairs would hold us up. Looked like a pretty good chair, pretty strong chair. I believe that chair will hold me up. But until we sat down in the chairs that we're sitting in right now,

we didn't have faith that the chair would hold us up. That's the difference. A lot of people in the world believe in Jesus. They believe he's real. They believe he existed. They believe, they read the Bible and they go, okay, yeah, I mean, I believe that, but so does the devil.

So does every demon that ever existed. They all believe in Jesus. Do they have faith in Jesus? Now, that's a totally different question. Do they lean on him? Do they rest on him? Do they give their own security up? I gave my security up for this chair

I'm sitting in right now. You gotta give your security up? I gave my security up for this chair I'm sitting in right now. You gotta give your security up all the way around to him and you'll never get it right. It is a constant struggle because you always wanna grab the reins and pull it back. That's just your nature. So it's a constant exercise of letting,

you're gonna grab and go, ah, okay, I'll let it go again. It's a constant, constant position. How much of your decision to leave the, say, traditional commercial confines of the music industry behind, how much of that dovetailed with the development of your faith? I mean, did those occur at the same time? Or what's time? Or is it a constant sort of unfolding? What's the sequence there? Because I'm still curious about why you decided to... you made a very important distinction there. It says in the Gospels, Christ says to his followers that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. And what he means by that, at least in part, is the

mere proclamation of a conscious belief is not sufficient to ensure redemption or salvation. It has a lot more to do with, let's say, putting your money where your mouth is. And that's the faith that you described. You used the analogy of the hitchhiker and the You used the analogy of the hitchhiker and the passenger and the driver, right, to let something that isn't your narrow self-interest take control. Well, you obviously made a decision when you decided to say and create what you needed to say and create instead of staying within the confines of your contractual obligations. How is that related to the revelation or the development of your faith?

Well, listen, there was a long time that you know the story of the prodigal son. I'm sure you know that one well. Well, man, I was the embodiment of that. I mean, imagine what my dad, the street preacher who had been to Mardi Gras 34 times must have thought when he sees his young son saying, I'm not gonna go to college,

I'm gonna go out on the road and play in places I'm not even old enough to be in all over the United States because I wanna have a career in country music. Can you imagine what my dad must have thought? I mean, and then to make matters worse, I was really successful at it and I lived that lifestyle for a very long time, very long time. And at one point it got to the

point I think I'd upset the boss so bad because I knew what the truth was. I was just going, some other time I'm busy doing what I want to do. I upset him so bad. I remember I was sitting in

a hotel room and felt like I got abandoned. I felt like all of a sudden I was sitting in a hotel room and felt like I got abandoned. I felt like all of a sudden I could feel like something left the room, like completely unprotected at all. Like the Lord just walked out of the room. He had had enough. Okay, you know what to do. You're going to call your own shots.

Good luck with that, buddy. Like that. And walked out of the room. And I felt it like ice water rolling down your back. You could feel it. And that persisted for several months. And it was horrible. Matter of fact, in Psalms, David writes about that a lot.

He said, I cry out to you, but you don't answer. Because David did a lot of things wrong. I mean, he did some really bad stuff that he had to repent for and come back from. But stuff that his punishment was God just left him standing there, just left him. And so I felt that, I felt that many years ago and I didn't want to ever feel that again.

And so I realized at that point, okay, it's time to put this nonsense away and go be who I'm supposed to be because otherwise what's the point of life? How old were you when that happened? I was in my late 30s. Oh yeah, oh yeah. So you'd been on the road a long time by then. Been on the road a long time by then.

Yeah, I certainly had. People say, well, I'm a good person. I'm a good person. I'm gonna go to heaven, I'm a good person. I feed the homeless, I give money to charity, whatever. I go to church every Sunday, I'm a good person. The problem with that is, if you believe that the words of the Bible are true,

which I do, it says, all your righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God, meaning there is no such thing as a good person. None of us are good, nobody. Not even the ones that wrote the books of the Bible, they're not good either. The only good in any of us is him.

It's like we talked about earlier, how do you discern what a lie is? The only way you can discern what a lie is, is to put it up against the actual truth. When you put it up against the actual truth, it's obviously a lie at that point. And Jesus Christ said, I am the way, the truth and the life,

and no man comes to the Father except by me. He said that. So there you go. So if you really wanna know what the truth is, you gotta bang those lies up against him. There's a lot of people that get in these comfortable positions, and I think that the churches in America

are largely to blame for it, that they will not preach what I would call the hard parts of the Bible. They will not preach the parts that prick the hearts of the people that are sitting in those pews. They won't say the things that make them uncomfortable. They wanna keep the church full. They wanna keep the offering plates full.

They want the money to keep coming. Right, but that doesn't work. Well, ultimately. Certainly not working in Europe, that's for sure. Well, no, I mean. The churches still have some people in the US, but the Christian church is having a hell of a time most of the West.

And I think it is in part because the demands aren't high enough on the people who are attending. Well, they're not- The road's been made too easy. Yeah, they're not preaching and teaching things that convict people, that make them have to step up to the plate and realize, oh, wow, I'm not doing what Jesus wants me to do.

I'm not living up to what he said. I haven't really given my will over to him. I've just been lip service this whole time and feeling good about everything. And that is so dangerous, doctor, because when your body dies and that spirit is cut loose, and the next thing you see is him. He's not gonna care how many times you went to church. He's not gonna care how many times you went to church.

He's not gonna care how much academia or intellectualism or any kind of things that you applied to him and what he said. He's not going to care. All he's gonna do is say, do you belong to me or not? Did you ever yield to me? Did you turn yourself over to me or not? And there's a lot of people gonna be disappointed when that day happens.

And that is a dangerous thing for people. There's so many people with so much potential in this world that have swallowed that lie and swallowed versions of it. And they put themselves in a state of being comfortable about it and go, you know, I think I'm good. I think I'm good. Yeah, I checked my IRS statement. I gave a lot of money last year to charity think I'm good. I think I'm good. Yeah, I checked my IRS statement.

I gave a lot of money last year to charity. I'm good. I'm good with them. That's what they think. That is not how that's gonna work. And so the reason people are so afraid to turn their will over, to become a bond servant to Jesus Christ

is because it scares him to death. Because I'm used to controlling, I'm in control of what's going on and to turn that over to him, he's gonna control what I'm doing? Well, what's he gonna do? How am I gonna change? What's my life gonna be like at that point?

It scares him to death. And a lot of people have a lot of built up barriers around them. A lot of people, as you well know, were abused when they were a kid, for instance. They were treated terribly. They were abused. Some people abuse so bad,

you wouldn't even mention it in this interview. It's so horrible. It's going on right now and you're talking about an epidemic of this has happened. And a lot of people then wrap themselves in various things to protect themselves from anybody ever being able to get to them again, including the son of God, including him.

They don't wanna give it over to anybody because it scares them too much to think about what would that be like. I actually watched a lot of your stuff and there was one time it said it was three years ago, I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I actually wrote down what you said and I wondered if you'd let me quote you for a minute.

Oh. Can I quote you in our, in your, it's your interview, can I quote you? Okay. Hey man, go right ahead. I appreciate that. All right, this is Dr. Jordan Peterson here, a quote from him. "'What you have in the figure of Christ

is the actual person who actually lived plus a myth. And in some sense, Christ is the union of those two things. The problem is that I probably believe that, but I'm amazed at my own belief and I don't understand it because I've seen that sometimes the objective world and the narrative world touch. That's union synchronicity. And I've seen that many times in my own life.

And so in some sense, I believe it's undeniable. You know, we have a narrative sense of the world. For me, that's been the world of morality. That's the world that tells us how to act. It's real. We treat it like it's real. It's not the objective world. But sometimes the narrative and the objective world touch.

And the ultimate example of that in principle is supposed to be Christ. And that seems to me oddly plausible. But I still don't know what to make of it, partly because it's too terrifying of a reality to fully believe. I don't know what would even happen to you if you fully believed it. Yeah, Matt.

So what struck me about that when I heard you say that was the terrified part. Because to me, I would think it'd be the greatest thing in the world if Jesus is who the Bible says he is, if that is true, then you should go running straight to him because he controls heaven and hell. He created the universe.

He's the Alpha, the Omega. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He's every answer you ever wanted to have. Every answer to every question. He is the ultimate. He loves you more than anybody will ever love you. He created you. You are his creation.

The last thing he wants to see happen to you is for you to go and follow the other way and wind up in eternity separated from him. So I know it's your interview, but I wanted to ask you, what terrifies you about the notion that Jesus might be who the Bible actually says he is? Well it's been, as you pointed out, a number of years since I said those things, and I

know more and understand more than I did when I said those words. I've reconceptualized my perspective, I suppose, or deepened it, partly as a consequence of writing these new books, because I have three books finished and one of them is coming out soon, and they're all analysis of the biblical narratives. This is something we can talk about in relationship to what happened to you after you decided to leave the confines of the safe confines, let's say, of the music industry. See, I started to understand in the story of Abraham, for example, God comes to Abraham as the voice of adventure. Right? Because Abraham is an old man by the time God shows up, and he's living in comfort and he has everything you

might need if all you wanted to be is a satiated infant. And God is really what calls Abraham out into the world and he has the whole catastrophic adventure of his life, right? He encounters famine and totalitarianism and war and malevolence and the destruction of cities and the necessity to offer up even his own son. I mean, Abraham's life is quite the spectacular catastrophe. And that, what would you say, the religious injunction, the deepest religious injunction

is to have exactly that catastrophe of adventure. And there's no real limit to that. And that's part of what's terrifying. You know, you said, if the terror wasn't there, that holy terror in a sense, you wouldn't have had any compunctions about giving up your contractual relationships and the financial stability and the fame

that that offered, right? You already had that. There's a terror in letting that go, let's say, and only doing what would you say, what you're commanded to do, or what you're invited to do by the spirit of the truth. But the payoff is an adventure that's so disproportionately greater

than whatever you would have gained by staying with your, what would you say, your hedonistic comfort that they're not even in the same universe. And that is, it's the kind of terror. So, you know, when God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden or when they separate themselves from God, God puts a sword to bar the way back to the eternal garden and the sword is on fire and it turns every which way. And what that means is that it's a sword that cuts and burns away everything that isn't worthy of being in the kingdom of heaven. And everything that's not worthy is a lot. And there's a terror in being subjected to that,

even though it's a necessary subjugation. It's the most necessary of subjugations. And so- So what's the bigger gamble though? I mean, what's the bigger terror? Is the bigger terror- Wow, that is the question terror that in this very temporary body that we sit in, this very short span of time

we have to live in it, that we don't, that he's gonna take over and he's gonna burn and cut and move things off of us. And by the way, for everything he burns and cuts off, he adds back, by the way, okay? He adds things on where he cut things off. More. Oh, much more. Multiples of it. back, by the way, okay? That he adds things on where he cut things off. Oh, much more, multiples of it.

Is it a bigger terror to undergo that process or to roll all the way through your life and the second your heart stops and your eyes open up, you're standing in front of him and you knew the truth and you rejected the truth and now what? Now he says, depart from me, I never knew you. And then it's eternal terror. Then it's eternal terror forever and ever,

and there's no coming back. You don't get a second chance at that. That's the ultimate terror. So I would ask you one more question. If, use the word if here, for you, if Jesus is truly who the Bible says he is, he is the creator, he is the one who exists and creates existence, which is how he's defined.

He is the Alpha and the Omega, he holds the keys to life and death, to heaven and hell. If he is that person, would you ever turn your life over to him? If you truly believed he was, would you turn your life over to him? Well, if you truly believed that, turning your life over to him under those conditions would be exactly the same as believing it. Belief isn't, as you already pointed out, belief isn't a set of statements about what

you believe to be true. It's a way of living. Well, but I'm asking- Very outlining what that way of living is. Well, but I'm asking you is just as one of the most, I would say one of the smartest guys in the world, one of the most intellectual people alive today, it's why people watch you. Someone like yourself,

if you became absolutely convinced, yes, that's real. Wow. It is terrifying. It is terrifying. It is terrible. But you said, if you told him, I am turning my life over to you, do what you will with me.

And you really did that? If you were willing to do that, Matt, what a situation. Long time ago. You did? I did that a long time ago. Yeah. So how is it that- I know the truth sets a situation. Long time ago. You did? I did that a long time ago. Yeah. So how is it that, how is it that-

I know the truth sets you free. Yeah. I understand. So in your life, in your life, it's not the doctor calling the shots. Not when I'm oriented properly. What orients you? Holy terror. What orients you?

Holy terror. Look, I'm trying to say the things that I believe serve the truth. And I have reason for that, because I know what the alternative is. The alternative is bleak, like bleaker than you can imagine. And so step carefully. That's my presumption. And hope and pray that you're careful enough to walk the straight narrow path. But it's impossible.

You can't do that. I can't do it. You can't do it. Oh, I understand. I understand what you mean. I don't take any issue with what you've said. Yeah, no, I don't think you do. And I'm not trying to have an issue.

I'm just- No, I understand that. I've studied what you've been saying. And I know you look at the Bible, it seems at least very metaphorically and very intellectually, you look at it in those kinds of terms. And at the end of the day, it's not a metaphor

and it's not intellectualism. Like when you die and you see him, what's he gonna say to you? What are you gonna say to him? I mean, that's the ultimate question that everybody watching this interview is gonna have to deal with. Everybody. It says, every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee, including John Rich and Jordan Peterson and the devil himself and everybody else,

every knee is gonna have to bow. And so whether you believe that or not doesn't change the fact that that is what is going to happen. And I happen to believe because it says in the scripture that the Lord reveals himself to every man. Every man knows it. He says, I stand that the Lord reveals himself to every man, every man knows it. He says, I stand at the door and knock. And if any man hears my voice and opens the door,

I'll come in with him, I'll sit down with him, I'll dine with him, I'll have dinner with him, and he with me. And so you hear him knocking on that door and you walk up, you open it and you let him in, that is what that means. You invited him into your house, let's call your body, this is my house. I invite him in, he sits down, he becomes,

he's living in my house now. That's what that means. It also says he won't knock forever. He will not knock forever. If you reject him. You said you experienced that. Yeah. You experienced that when you felt abandoned.

Yep, yep. He won't knock forever. At some point, if you reject him long enough, it says he'll just turn you over to your desires. And go, well, we gave it a good shot. Move on. And brother, you don't wanna get to that point. So anybody watching this,

if you feel him knocking at the door, open the door. It's very simple. You don't need a preacher. You don't need a priest. You don't need anybody to sit down with to give your life to Jesus and go to heaven. You don't need anybody. You can sit there all by yourself

and you can reach out to him. You can give your life to him right there. Anytime you want to. That's one problem with religion. You've used the word religious about me. There's nothing religious about me. Religion, in my opinion, has built these constructs where they make people think,

you have to go confess your sins to this person, or you have to go through a preacher, you have to go through some other earthly sinful human being. I mean, tell me where it says that anywhere. It doesn't, it doesn't say that anywhere. That's their way of keeping people under control, making them come through those doors.

They think if they don't do it that way, then they're not gonna get there. And that's another one of the big deceptions that are out there. That's why I don't like that old notion of religion. Jesus was not a religious person. The religious people persecuted Jesus back in the day. So it's important for people to know these distinctions.

I mean, you can have one-on-one with him. He's right there. He's literally right there. It's as simple as that. We don't have to intellectualize everything about him and try to figure out every single nook and cranny of every single word that he said. Just go look at what he said.

He made it real simple. And again, we're all gonna have to go to that point. Everybody's gonna die, everybody. And the second you die, it says to be absent from the flesh is to be present with God. Like boom, just like that. And you're standing in front of the boss and what are you gonna say to him?

What's he gonna say to you? That's the only conversation any human being should be concerned about. John, that's probably a good time to end this part of the conversation. I wanted to talk to you about the meaning of the lyrics that you wrote down in this song. But I think we'll do that on the daily wire side, because that'll be a good additional half an hour,

and this is actually a very good time to end. And so, I guess what I would say in closing to what you said is that, obviously, you have a specific idea about what constitutes faith and your faith, and you use the metaphor of the driver to lay that forward. And that seems to me to be a very good representation of what constitutes faith, because it does come down to, let's say, who you invite in to take charge. Mm-hmm, exactly right. And that's not the same as stating words of faith, right? Correct.

So, well, so that's a good thing. Doctor, that's the whole point. Doctor, that's the whole point. You said the whole point right there. Exactly right. Yeah, well, that's what do you say? That's the protection against religious hypocrisy as well. You know, part of the reason I'm loathe in many ways to talk about directly about what I believe, let's say, is because I'm not really that interested in taking credit for what I believe, let's say, is because I'm not really that interested

in taking credit for what I believe. You know what I mean? For me, it's something to kind of hold secret because it's not for public display. Because the problem with public display is that that's the pathway of the Pharisees. And so it's dangerous to pray in public and to make your case known in the streets, let's say. So that's- Well, that's, well, but it does say, and I know you wanna wrap up, so obviously we will,

but it does say go out and preach the gospel to every nation, every human being out there. And now what the Pharisees and Sadducees did, we look, look how holy we are. We're given all this money. Look at us, we're so benevolent, we're so holy. It says, give your gifts in secret. That's what it's talking about.

When you make a donation or you help somebody, don't advertise it all over the world. He doesn't appreciate that. But when it talks about go out and tell everybody about the truth of who I am and what the Bible says and what the stakes are, the eternal stakes out here, you are supposed to go say that. And let me tell you something, Dr. as we wrap,

you could be one of the most powerful weapons in the hand of God that he ever slung, ever, because of the intellect that you have, because of the platform that you have, because of the millions of people and what you've learned. You've read every word of the Bible, you've dissected it, you know what it is. And the day that becomes absolutely life and death real to you, you, sir, could be one of the most powerful human beings, in my opinion opinion that ever walked the face of the earth. Well, I think you'll like my new book, John.

Looking forward to it. All right, sir. Well, thank you for the conversation today. Thank you. Thank you to everybody who's watching and listening to and paying attention to this. And as I alluded to, I'm going to continue to talk to John for another half an hour on the Daily Wire side. And I think we'll delve more into the lyrics of his song, Revelation, since we've uncovered

the motivation behind the song and also the preconditions for it to make itself manifest, you might say. And so, yeah, well, it's complicated, eh, how these things come about. And I'd also like to talk to you a little bit more about how it's being received. So for everybody who is watching and listening, you could join us on the daily wire side to complete this conversation.

That'd give you an opportunity to throw some support their way too, because at least in my experience, they are a platform that promotes free speech. They've left me the hell alone to do exactly what it is that I do and also enabled me to bring most of it to people while on YouTube for public consumption, which is a very generous offer on the part of the company. So in any case, you can join us there if you're inclined to. Thank you very much, sir.

That was extremely interesting and yeah, well, thanks for letting everybody know how you came to the conclusions that you've come to and what that's meant. Much appreciated. Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it, sir.