The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - The Revolution of German Farmers | Eva Vlaardingerbroek & Anthony Lee | EP 416

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson speaks with German farmer Anthony Lee and journalist Eva Vlaardingerbroek. They discuss the ongoing farmers' protest, the war on efficient agriculture, what is now being panned as the failed German state, the ludicrous net-zero goals creating excess electric vehicles while cutting off the generation of power, and how a grassroots movement can make genuine change at the local and national levels.Eva Vlaardingerbroek is a Dutch journalist and previous YouTube host of the “Let’s Talk About It” program on the channel Riks. Vlaardingerbroek has published opinion articles in newspapers such as the Dutch weekly Elsevier Weekblad and appeared on programs like Tucker Carlson's show on Fox News. She advocates for a cultural return to faith and a rejection of the WEF manifested, globalist ideology. Anthony Lee is a German farmer who has become outspoken in recent months as he followed news of farmers struggling all across Europe. Now affecting his home country, the time has come to take a stand, and not just for German farmers and workers, but for everyone. 

Hello everyone. I have the opportunity today to speak with Eva Vladingerbroek and Anthony Lee. Eva is a political commentator from the Netherlands. She was integrally involved in the Dutch farmer protests in recent years and has recently been with the German farmers and truckers and dock workers and railway workers who've basically brought Germany to its knees in the last week. Even though you may not have seen much of that in the so-called legacy media circles. seen much of that in the so-called legacy media circles. Anyways, I talked to Eva today, and to Anthony about just exactly what's been happening in Germany and the Netherlands and many other European countries as well.

With regards to these essentially populist uprisings, similar say to the Trucker Convoy in Canada, we discussed the scope of that movement, who was involved by group, the aims, the consequences, and the likely outcomes on the German and broader European political front in the upcoming years and beyond. Join us for that. So where are you, Eva, and what are you doing? I'm in Berlin right now in Germany, and I've been on the road here in Germany

all over the country for the past seven days, because for the past seven days, the country has witnessed some of the largest farmers' protests that Germany has ever seen. This protest wasn't actually just joined by farmers, but was what I would call massive uprising of blue-color workers, ordinary citizens, people who are just fed up with the German federal government, people that are fed up feeling like they have no

right to exist, being taxed into oblivion, and just wanted to make a fist and say we're done with you guys. That was the general sentiment that I've witnessed around here, and I've been reporting general sentiment that I've witnessed around here. And I've been reporting on it. I've been going out on the roads with the farmers, cheering them on. And on the first day, on Monday last week, I was on the A2, which is the busiest highway in Europe,

where I met farmer Anthony Lee, who is sitting right beside me, who was part of the organization. And they conducted one of the largest roadblocks of the highway there that, well, I mean, I have ever seen, but I think Germany has ever seen. And this was a roadblock that went on for kilometers, miles and miles on end. And I can still get emotional thinking back on it because it really reminded me of the

Dutch farmers protests and even the Canadian Freedom Convoy. At a certain point we saw all of the tractors going onto the road because the German truckers came to help them block the road and it was just the most massive thing that I've seen in a while. And so I met this hero of a man who's sitting right next to me, former Anthony Lee right there. And now we are in Berlin because today was the grand finale of the protests of the past week. And he actually spoke today on stage at the Brandenburgator next to the federal government to tell the German government who's boss, essentially.

So Anthony, why is it that you're involved in this? And I'd like you to speak personally first. Like what is it that has disrupted your life to the point where you're willing to use your valuable time, energy, and machinery to engage in political activity and protest instead of doing what farmers usually do, which is like working 16 hours a day. So how long have you been doing this? And exactly what's going on as far as you're concerned? Let's make it personal to begin with. Well, yes, thank you first of all for

having us on the show. It's a great pleasure. Well, personally, I'm just afraid of the future. A future for my kids, I have three kids. And like, I think every other farmer on this world, they want the next generation to carry on doing the job, which has been going on through dozens of generations in some of our cases in Germany. I know friends who are in the 15, 16th generation. And now we have a policy, not only now actually, I would say the last 10, 15 years,

we have a policy in Germany and all over Europe actually, which is especially not farmers friendly to be polite. And we started in 2019 with around about 15,000 tractors who came to Berlin to start this protest. And we've been carrying on the last four years. We spoke to politicians on all levels and since two years, the last two years, we have a, I would say, green dictated government in Germany which is making life actually not only complicated for us farmers or for, like Eva said, the ordinary workers, the blue-collar workers. So yeah, this is why we started on the 18th of December last year with a new massive protest and this is special now because all organizations are united like they've never been.

And we are standing together against this kind of policy. And like if I said today was one of the, I'd say it was even bigger than 2019. I don't have the numbers, but I came to Berlin this morning and I passed, I would say, probably 15, 20 kilometers long, well, yeah. A convoy. Convoys of truck drivers, farmers, and this was only from one direction to Berlin, and we came from all over the all directions, and many didn't even make it into the city because it was packed.

Okay, so there's a bunch of mysteries there to unpack and the first thing I'd like to know and that everybody who's watching and listening needs to know is what exactly has what green policies in particular, like why do you characterize the policies as green first and then what green policies are making your life as a farmer and farmers' lives in general untenable? And why is it having the impact that it's having? Provide me with some details about what it is that you're facing. Well, our European government, the last years, I'd say, they came up with ideas of a green deal.

They call it a green deal. Everything which you pronounce green is supposed to be something good. Nobody really wants to ruin the environment. Everybody wants to protect the environment, which is good. Don't get me wrong. But I'd say it's kind of an agenda to get rid of us, like we saw in Holland the last two years. And we have a thing in Europe, in the European Union, which is a part of the Green Deal, they call it Farm to Fork Strategy.

And these four things you have to remember or know about this strategy. 10% of the whole European farmland, they want to get out of use. So we're not allowed to use anymore. I mean, 10% of Europe, which is kind of quite a lot. 50% of a chemical protection, chemical plant protection, they want to cut down 50%.

I don't know how they made up this number, but it's a hell of a lot. It's like if you go to a doctor and the doctor is only allowed to use 50% of the medication, it's ridiculous because we need medication for our plants, which is actually totally normal. And then they want us to have 25% of the European Union, the farmland, only to used by organic farming,

which I don't really have a problem with organic farming, but you use the double of space or land, or you only harvest 50% if you're lucky. And this fourth thing, what was the fourth thing? I think I already met him. Well, I mean, what I think what's important to know is that just like with the Dutch farmers protest, we have, there is a sort of a structure to the attack on farming that isn't just on a national level. There's definitely, as you said, there's a European Green Deal that we're working with,

which is pushed forward by unelected bureaucrats, in this case, forgive me, but a Dutchman, Frans Stimmermans, who is the mastermind or the evil mastermind, I would say, behind the European Green Deal. And then in every national country, there is a different set of policies that is used to target the specific farming groups, right? So in the Netherlands, when we last talked, Jordan, about the farmers protests there, I told you that it was about nitrogen, right? The courts ruled in the Netherlands that

we are facing a nitrogen crisis. They are using European legislation for that to get rid of our farmers. Here in Germany, what the mainstream will tell you was the main reason why the farmers now were particularly angry or what sparked these protests was the elimination of tax breaks on agricultural diesel. The backstory to that is that the German government

doesn't have their finances in check and has a huge hole in their budget and was also trying to fill that gap. And they said, well, let's go after what they call klimafeindliche Subvention, so climate unfriendly subsidies. And so they said, we need to cut back on the tax break that the farmers get for agricultural diesel, which those taxes normally only involve for diesel, for people who go out on the road,

that's what that tax is for, and farmers obviously just use it for their on their own land. So the fact that they came after the farmers now and try to fill their own gap in their own budget due to their own mismanagement, and they target now the people that provide us with our daily meals, that initially sparked a lot of anger. But I would say, and I think you would probably agree with me, Anthony, is that there is a general sentiment within the German population that was very much reflected at these protests of just feeling like the German government and not just the German government, also the Dutch government and European Union is constantly acting contrary to the interests

of ordinary people who in fact pay their salaries because they are taxed already into oblivion, right? So the general theme that we constantly heard there was a slogan basically saying the government needs to go, right? This wasn't just about these tax breaks. This was really a general dismay, great dismay with the federal German government and the policies that they stand for. So Ava, let me ask you about that in more detail than Anthony. I'll go right back to you. When the protest or the truck protest in Canada emerged,

there were, while there were all sorts of idiot rumors, many of them spread by the federal government that this was like a MAGA style January 6th insurrection and it was funded by MAGA Republicans, which is about the stupidest thing I can possibly imagine, or even by Russians. But underneath that, there was a fear, you might say, as well as manipulation.

There was a fear that this sort of popular uprising was anti-democratic in its fundamental essence. And, you know, when you say things like, the government has to go, I'm wondering how the two of you reconcile the fact, and you can help me straighten this out, reconcile the fact that Germany is led by a democratically elected government, and yet these massive protests are emerging with the proposition that the government has to go. And question is, in a

democracy, what does it mean that the government has to go and how do you see what's happening on the protest front in Germany Acting in a manner that's commensurate with democratic principles? Eva, maybe you can start that right well I feel like it couldn't be more democratic what we are seeing right now because you are seeing people exercising their democratic rights to protest Against a government that doesn't represent their interest anymore. I think the general support for the government has sunk to about 30% according to the polls here, right? So there are people in power right now who have been in power for the past two and a half years, who were elected by the German people, of course, democratically speaking, but who have, I would say, messed up so majorly that they've lost the support of the people. And that's exactly the opinion that those people have now gone out to voice and at their own expense.

Because, I mean, like you said, farmers are hands-on people that absolutely do not want to spend time away from their farms, usually, because they simply can't afford it. And the fact that they've now gone out in such large numbers to protest and make use of their democratic rights, to me, this is the epitome of democracy. And what you see is that instead of celebrating that, the mainstream media, exactly the way that you described the Canadian process, they are now saying, well, this is an insurrection, these are people that are in democratic, this is extremely far right. They constantly set the far right, they go on it. And especially in Germany,

in the historical context of this nation, that label holds a lot of power. I mean, we all understand why, right? So being called far right is not something that you want in Germany, but it's been overused by the mainstream media and establishment so much so, that clearly people feel like,

well, whatever, then I'll be labeled far right. But apparently they have nothing to lose anymore. So it's laughable to me that, but I understand why they're doing it, that they're trying to label these people as extremists. What I've seen are people who are just fed up with not being heard, who actually want more democratic legitimation to the government. They want to be represented by the people in power.

They feel not just unwanted and unheard, they feel like they are being threatened in their existence. They feel like they are ruled by people who essentially hate them. That's all I've seen. I've just seen ordinary, heart-working people who are fed up and came to exercise their democratic rights. Anthony, Ava makes the case that you have to have a fair bit of gall or desperation in Germany

to ally yourself with a movement that's been pelleried as far right, not least because of the historical precedence of that terminology for Germany. And so I'm wondering how you regard yourself politically and maybe how you regard the majority of the people who are involved in this protest politically. What set of descriptors do you think might reasonably be applied to them? And why is it that you decided that you would overcome the risk associated with being tarred with the far right brush

to continue the pursuit, to continue the protest that you have been engaged in? Well, I say my personal advantage is that I'm half British. My dad was in the British military. So I mean, I was born in Germany and raised in Germany and I went to German school, but I'm not afraid of the typical right agenda they are trying to force, foresee in Germany.

But many people still are. Actually, it's getting less now because the media's overdone it and people don't really care anymore. And you asked about our government. I mean, this government's been in charge for more than two years. And Germany is one of the economic motors, I'd say the biggest in Europe. And we are the only country, industry of the country, which has a, they call it a negative growth in Germany.

I mean, they even try to make that nice. It's ridiculous. I mean, how can you have a negative growth? And they blame it on Putin, on Russia, or on the environment, whatever. But it's all house-made because this country is one of the, and was one of the wealthiest countries in Europe and in the world. And they managed to ruin our economy in less than two years.

I mean, they switched off the most efficient and safest nuclear power plants on the world. And this is all because the Green Party in Germany, that was their main goal since the early 80s, and they managed that. And from the day we switched off these super efficient nuclear power plants, we became, we have to back for electricity, especially in France, which is mostly nuclear power plants in any way. And you can carry it on with so many things. We are reducing our best industry

in the world, I'd say, our car industry. They are losing, what's the right word for it, contact to the Japanese cars and so on. And people see that and people lose money. Our inflation rate is the highest in Europe and it's not going down. And you cannot say it's Russia to blame or anybody else. If all the countries around you are having growth, even UK has growth, even though everybody said in Germany, well, now after Brexit, they will get poor.

And it's not the case. So people see that. And even like Aifa said, every worker has to pay more and earns less. So that's why it's turned. And there's so many people who are fed up of this government. So I've observed a variety of things. First of all, it's not easy to get coverage of the protests in Germany on legacy media. It's as if really nothing is going on. And it's a strange

thing because watching you guys from the outside, and I think the same is probably true of what's happening in Spain and what's happening in Poland, it's so minimized and invisible that the only place that I've really been able to track it is Twitter. And so that makes it seem in some real sense that it's conspiratorial thinking, even to admit to the fact that it's happening at all. So we've outlined, but it is happening,

and we've outlined some of the causes, and we've noted that it's happening in many countries, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Poland, Germany, and we'll continue to do so. We've outlined the fact that there are factors at work, so it's an overarching, bureaucratically imposed, top-down, hypothetically green agenda that's aiming to make a moral virtue out of the so-called degrowth that's indistinguishable from economic failure and catastrophic guidance. And that's now being touted as a moral virtue, which will do nothing but impoverish poor people

and make them unbelievably desperate and reliant on places like China and India that'll take the forefront in the leadership and industrial development and very rapidly if we don't get our act together. Now you guys have noticed, now some evidence for that I would say for what we're laying out as the causes can be seen in the fact that as you guys pointed out, it's not just the farmers in Germany that are part and parcel of this latest protest. And so, Ava, can you give us some insight into how widespread the participation has been

and what other groups of primarily working classes, my understanding, what other primary working class groups have become involved at what scale? Right. Yeah. Well, so let me paint the picture again of the moment where we met on the A2. So we actually walked alongside the farmers on their tractors on a dark side road next to the highway, where it was almost like a thief in the night.

They were trying to make their way onto the highway, which obviously is not easy to do even in the early hours of the morning. I thought to myself, how are they going to manage this? How are these tractors going to make their way onto the highway with all of these cars passing by? Then from the corner of my eye,

I saw a huge confoy rocking up of these truckers, who all had joined the protest and made sure that the road was safe for the farmers to go onto. And that really moved me. That was such a special moment to witness. I mean, my video on Twitter, you can hear me scream, you know, enjoy and excitement, because it was such a true moment of solidarity from this one group in society to the other. And at the protest itself, we saw, I mean, yeah, the truckers were there,

the farmers were there, all sorts of blue-colored workers, but also citizens in their cars who either were there on purpose because they wanted to support the farmers or who got stuck in traffic, but who we asked, hey, do you mind being stuck here? And I kid you not, like nine out of 10 times, they were like, absolutely not, I don't mind.

I know exactly why these people are protesting and I agree with them. So the support was huge. And even going around at the protest, looking at the signs that people were holding. You know, there's a nice word in German, mittersunds of, yeah, I guess you would translate into the middle class, you know, the working class.

The class that I would say is being absolutely obliterated by the globalist agenda under the pretext of this green morally, morally, virtually see, I mean, utopia that they're trying to impose on us, which obviously is a dystopian world if you look at the consequences. But so the middle class, the hardworking, ordinary people that indeed have become increasingly poor as a result of conscious choices that were made by an elitist government,

a globalist government, that do not have the best interests of the people at heart and actively work against their interests. I would say that was the general image that I got. I felt like we are witnessing an uprising of ordinary hardworking citizens who are being branded by the mainstream media, unrightfully so, as far right extremists, when in fact all they want is just, you know, to be able to exist, provide for their family, and do their job without being crushed by bureaucracy, without being crushed by taxes, without being crushed by the rockatory labels.

You know, the deplorables, as Hillary Clinton called them, those were the people that were out on the street, and I would say that they were everything but the pluribals. I take my hat off for you. I know where my food comes from, and I'm very sad that the people in power seem to have either forgotten it or, and this is obviously the stance that I have taken,

know exactly where food comes from, but want to be able to control it in such a manner that they then also can exercise control over the general population. I think that that's ultimately the goal behind the climate agenda, and using the green deal and all of these ideas as a pretext in order to gain control over people's lives, and they're creating crises to do it. Because if you have a population that is dependent on you for their food, in order to gain control over people's lives, and they're creating crises to do it.

Because if you have a population that is dependent on you for their food, if they can't eat, what is a better way than that, than to gain control over them? Yeah, well, it seems to me that it's an easy move for any given bureaucrat to proclaim his or her alliance with the planet, with blessed mother nature, to virtue signal in the direction of a green agenda and to thereby ratchet him or herself not only up the moral hierarchy and pat themselves on the back, but also to

use that as a means of advancing their career, even in micro steps. Then you can imagine that the aggregate consequence of that across the entire bureaucratic class, able to use this agenda as a get out of jail free card, as an excuse and explanation for every failure, we're only pursuing degrowth because of the green agenda. You could imagine that all of that collective activity going on in the background acts in a quasi-conspiratorial manner to put this agenda forward.

And then, just so that we don't assume that I'm only thinking about quasi-conspiracies, you know, I've looked very carefully at the so-called C40 consortium agenda. This is a consortium of the 40, some of the 40 largest cities on the globe, all allied together at the level of local municipal government who are literally pursuing an agenda that includes no more than three articles of clothing per citizen per year, a 95 percent, 95 percent in private car ownership, which is why we're all being encouraged to produce the electric cars that we won't have enough electricity to run anyways because you don't need electricity if you actually don't get to own a car. And if the goal is a 95% reduction

in private automobile ownership, then it doesn't matter if there's no damn grid. One short haul flight per person every three years, which will completely obviously decimate the entire travel industry, plus all of the tourism industry that Europe depends on absolutely and all possible manners. And then overall, although this isn't directly from the C40, the fundamental goal of something

approximating an 85% reduction in Western living standards, which is the calculation of the green virtuous globalist utopians as to what's necessary in order for us to inhabit a green planet. And so all of this means, to me it means not only are the bureaucrats who are using this get out of jail free card to advance their careers and the conspiratorialists who are radically left using it explicitly as an agenda. It also means that the bloody radical leftists are 100% willing to sacrifice the working class and the poor to their ambition and their green agenda. Now that has backfired in the Netherlands. So let's concentrate on that for a moment, Eva. So the last time we talked, it was in the midst of the farmer protest in the Netherlands and that produced a genuine political upheaval. Now maybe you could lay out for everybody

what happened in the Netherlands, what the situation is now, and what you think that implies for the future of European political action in general. Right. Well, what I think we can see, or what happened in the Netherlands, was we had the last major farmers protests in March. Right, and then right in March, at the end of March, we had general elections in which the farmer's citizens movement,

a relatively new party, got a landslide victory. And then about a month ago, we had general elections for our parliament, in which the PVV, which was originally branded as the far right, again, we can fill bingo card with this. The far right party won a staggering number of seats for Dutch standards, at least people have to understand we have

a system in which there are multi-parties. We don't have a two-party system, we have plenty, and they always have to form a coalition. But this party, the PVV, the far-right party, won about a fourth of all votes, and now in the polls they're even looking at a third, because they're only rising in popularity. And I really think that this farmer's protest, and that's why I think it's so important what you guys are doing here in Germany, and that's why I wanted to be there, is that the farmers are in the vancourt

of this political change. It's you guys, because anybody with a functioning set of eyes and brain cells, we talk to you, we go out in the streets, and if you actually see the people that go out there, you know, we talk to you, we go out in the streets and if you actually see the people that go out there, you see that those are not extremists, those are normal people. And so if you come after those,

if you come after the people who provide you with food, that's something that I think most ordinary people can't really comprehend. It's like, why would you come after the people who provide us with food? That doesn't make any sense, you know? And they don't stand for that. So I think that the farmers uprising in the Netherlands has had a great impact on our

elections. So much so now that, yeah, the for-right quote-unquote has won. And obviously we're not out of the woods yet because we still have to form a coalition, but it is a major political shift where I feel like really something in the hearts and minds of the people has changed, where they're no longer afraid of the usual intimidation tactics of the mainstream media and the establishment. They're, like we said, they have nothing to lose anymore. Do you think there's a danger?

What might be the danger if any of normalization of the so-called far-right agenda? I mean, there's two ways of looking at this, right? Because one way is looking at it, the way you guys have been looking at it, which is that the terminology of far-right itself has been weaponized, and now that weapon is using it losing its potency because Your claim fundamentally is that it's been applied to the obvious

What would you say to those who are obviously at the bedrock of society and that would be? Certainly the truckers and the farmers like self-evidently and if truckers and farmers just going about their business have become far right, then the terminology itself loses its meaning. But then you could also say, well, there has been danger in the past presented by the far right. And the fact that the term no longer has any validity as a weapon also means in principle that people who have a genuinely far-right agenda, such as they are, can now use this populist movement to their own advantage to put forward their hypothetically nefarious agenda. And so I'm wondering Eva, how you've worked through those complexities in your own mind,

what you think far-right means now, and if you see any dangers in this populist uprising, let's say, and the transformation of the political scene that's emerged in consequence. Well, there are a few things to say to that. I think indeed the one danger that I could imagine is that because this term is so overused and has become so trivialized in that sense, it's like, okay, if there is a far right subgroup that wants to do all sorts of evil things, then maybe we wouldn't take it as seriously anymore because it's so overused on ordinary people with valid, totally justified opinions.

I don't see them though. I don't see them out on the streets. I don't meet them. So what I have personally done in my own life, I've had my fair share of slander and the Dutch mainstream media, when I started out in my political career, called me the shield maiden of the far right. I was 23 when that happened to me

and I was terrified because I thought to myself, well, okay, I can forget a normal life. I can forget ever having a job. Like Google never forgets. So if somebody Googles you and the first thing you see about you, shield made of the far right, well, that's not good. But I've now come to the conclusion that there is no point in being afraid of a label that doesn't actually apply to you.

So I just run with it now. It's in my bio on X because I think it's funny and I want to show to other people don't be intimidated by people who use that label to silence you. Because nowadays, to me, what I find is that they put far right on just about anybody who is somewhat right-wing to the center, who has conservative views, maybe doesn't cut their hair short and dyed purple and

scream destroyed a patriarchy, people who oppose mass immigration, which clearly didn't have the best effect on Europe. So if you have those, I would say completely legitimate, valid opinions, you earn that title nowadays with the mainstream media. So the best thing you can do is stop caring.

Because if you stop being afraid of it, then they lose their power over you, and we can demand actual change, which nowadays would be labeled as far right, but 30 years ago would be just a Christian democratic ideal. I've certainly seen in Canada and elsewhere that everything right now definitely includes everything that was even 10 years ago regarded as classically liberal.

And everything far right includes everything that 10 years ago would have been regarded even as moderately conservative. And so, and given that the radical left actually occupies only about 7% of the population, and I think that's probably an overestimate. That really means that 93% of the population have been thrown in by them, by them, by the way, has been thrown into the category either of right or far right. Now, you would think, Anthony,

that this would be a particularly significant problem in Germany. And so the fact that ordinary people have chosen to rise up nonetheless in spite of being labeled with these epithets indicates in all probability that something of dead seriousness is going on. And so what is it that you guys who are protesting want? What do you think your protest has accomplished and where do you think this is going in the immediate and longer-term future in this rapidly deindustrializing and failing German state?

Well, the first thing we want is just politicians who have common sense. It's very simple. Let me just go back one thing about this green agenda we have. In Germany, everybody's trying to get rid of CO2. So CO2 is the worst thing it will kill us. And we have young people gluing themselves onto the street, especially here in Berlin, to demonstrate that we have to cut down on CO2, otherwise they call themselves last generation, otherwise we will die.

It's so silly and the media is honestly cutting down a bit on it now, but it's still onto it. And this is the main agenda, especially to us farmers, because we have to cut down on CO2. That's why this green deal, these four things I told you about, and especially the main reason, whatever I just described, to tax our diesel. And I only live about 150 kilometers away from Holland.

In Holland, or in in Belgium or in France, they don't tax diesel at all. So it's an unfair thing for us in Europe to compare. We can't compete, obviously not. And anybody should know that we in Germany, our farmers use one liter diesel so efficient like nobody else can do it on this planet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously if we don't produce the food, we will have to get it from

somewhere else. And we had some very good passage last year in an Austrian newspaper. And they said the green deal from the European Union is a bad deal for the planet. Because if we do these things that I told you a few minutes ago, we will have to, we need 8 million hectares somewhere else on the world to feed us, which will mean we have to use big ships to get the food to us, Germany, which is bad for the environment, because we will pollute the air with CO2, which will kill us, and we will take poor people food away.

And anybody who says, especially from the Green Party, who says, well, it's a good idea to do the Green Deal, he should reflect himself and think, it can't be. It's absolutely contrary to that sense or that meaning we want to do to protect the planet, to get real to you too. You're doing the opposite by far. And people more and more realize this nonsense we're doing, and they fed up of it because it's costing us money, it's costing us our economy, like I told you. And I mean, it's the same.

We cut down, I mean, we got a lot of gas from Russia until the Ukraine war, and it was quite cheap for us, which was good for our economy. So we cut down, we said, well, we don't want it anymore. By the way, let me explain this so anybody from outside Germany realized this, Spain, for example, which is a member of the European Union, imports double the size of gas from Russia than before the Ukraine war. So which is silly because, I mean,

we all have the same rights in the European Union, but we in our government says, no, we don't want it because we don't want to give Putin money. And so even though I live in a state which is called Lowest Saxony, it's in the middle of Germany, we have gas, we could, frack, is it fracking? We could frack. Yeah, fracking, yeah.

We could frack gas for 30 years for the German economy. We don't want to do it because it's bad for the environment. We rather buy it from the US or from the Middle East and pay five times as much and we are dependent on governments from the Middle East or from the America, from the United States. And then we have to we have to import it. It's so silly, which is obviously bad for the environment. But they say it's green, you know, it's so, I mean. We're doing the exact thing.

You're doing the exact thing. And it is so. Well, so are we in Canada. So Quebec, the province of Quebec in Canada has enough natural gas in Quebec to supply all of Quebec for 200 years or the EU for 50. And they refuse to frack any of it because fracking is so dangerous.

And by the way, I grew up in Northern Alberta, and they had fracked there for like six decades with no problem whatsoever. And so I know all of that is absolute bloody nonsense, but the advantages of this green virtue signaling at the local bureaucratic level are so astounding that all of this idiocy can pass by as green legislation, even though it flies in the face of both common sense

and facts. So I know for a fact, for example, that not only is Germany electricity in Germany something approximating five times as expensive as it should be, which, given the dependence of industry and everything else, all of commerce on cheap energy is a bloody catastrophe, I know as well that you guys are producing more carbon dioxide and more waste per unit of energy than you were 10 years ago because you shut down the bloody nuclear

plants and have substituted instead lignite coal plants, which is like utterly insane. So just so that everybody watching and listening is clear here, not only are these green policies devastating to the working class and to the poor and to the economic stability of Europe as a whole and then to the stability of the world in general. They are counterproductive by the standards put forward by the green advocates themselves in that as you pointed out, well, first of all, you have to import your bloody power at a tremendously high cost.

And then you're gonna shut down local production of food in favor of imports. And it was only a few years ago that all the green revolutionaries were jumping up and down, screaming about the fact that you should buy local, exactly to decrease the kind of transportation costs that you're pointing to. And so it's such a mystery, because the policies that are being pursued don't even suffice to service the goals that are hypothetically

trumpeted by the formulators of the policies themselves. It's a bloody miracle, miracle of stupidity and blindness. I've given this so much thought because so many people have asked me why, you know, why would they do this? It doesn't make sense. Explain it, you know. Why would you come after the most hardworking sector, the most lucrative sector, the people that provide you with food?

Why would you shut down your nuclear plants if you are to import electricity for, I don't know how much more the price? Why, why, why? And I think it was Carl Jung actually who said, if you can't understand someone's actions, you have to look at the consequences and infer the motive. And that's what I've done with all of this. If the consequences of their policies are that we become poorer, you know, we, not they obviously, but we, if we become poorer, we become more dependent on them, we basically

essentially would starve if this is put through, and we don't have the financial means anymore to import our food. And well, I don't know, God forbid a disaster happens, we've outsourced everything, we could be in real trouble. Well, if those are the consequences, then apparently that's the motive. Maybe I've become too cynical, but I find it very difficult to explain it any other way, because this is not a one-time mistake. These people are, the net zero scam,

and I would really call it a scam, is something that they- It's a criminal scam. Yes, well actually- It's a criminal scam. It's not just a scam. It is criminal, and I think that it is of the worst type of injustice if a government and the people are supposed to represent us,

talking about democracy, liberal democracy and all, if those people turn their backs on their own population and not just turn their backs, but actively again go against their interests and allow them essentially if things go wrong to become poor and to starve. And I can't see, I see true evil behind these acts. I don't just see incompetence anymore.

It's worse than that, Eva. It's worse than that even, because I was speaking with someone the other day, one of my podcast guests, who said that their sampling has indicated that young people now think about climate apocalypse three or four times a day.

They're literally obsessed by it, and we know perfectly well that that demoralizing insistence that all human striving is planet destroying, you know, patriarchal ambition and has to be brought to a halt, not only does it risk economic catastrophe, really right down to the fundamental level in the way that we've been describing. But it's also demoralized an entire generation of people and made them afraid, terrified, like chicken little that the sky is falling, even when the IPCC itself, who are hypothetically the people that are on top of the appropriate data, have indicated nowhere in their documentation

that we're facing anything approximating a true emergency. And so, well, and so that does beg the question, as you said, you know, just exactly what the hell is going on. And I think that your method of inferring the motivation is actually the case. I think the proximal cause is the fact that just as in Nazi Germany, let's say, that any old mid-level bureaucrat could ratchet himself up the hierarchy by identifying, at least in principle, with the overarching Nazi ideology. It's absolutely the case with these bureaucrats who bear no immediate economic consequences

for the idiocy of their actions. If they put forward this green agenda and they're celebrated by the radiant peers for doing so, that's definitely good in the immediate present for their career development. And they're, you know, they're self aggrandizing moral proclamations of virtuous self. And in the aggregate, we get exactly this sort of thing. Anthony, what consequences do you think that these protests are going to have, have had? Let's start with that. What consequences have they had and what do you think is going to unfold? Because this is a relatively new government in Germany and it isn't obvious to me that it's going to fall apart in consequence as

the government in the Netherlands did. Certainly the Canadian government sailed right through the trucker protest as if it never even happened and the probability that Justin Trudeau is going to rule with his velvet fist for the next year appears to be extremely high. So what do you think is going to happen in Germany as a consequence of these protests? Well, it's very hard to predict. The government didn't learn its lesson yet. That's obvious. We had our finance minister on stage today, and it was obvious he didn't learn anything

about our actions we did. But what we already achieved is that we are, like I said in the beginning, so united, like I honestly never thought we could be. If I said that, I mean, I would say 80 percent, and this is an official poll of our mainstream media, 80 percent says they are behind our actions, behind our, it's not a strike, it's a protest. And that's amazing. That's honestly amazing, especially getting in front of this agenda, what we were talking about. And like I said, people are realizing that now, and they're realizing it for one reason. They believed everything, or most of them believed all this agenda agreed, we have to save CO2 to save our

lives and all that nonsense. But now it's costing them money. Everybody's paying for this. And we are paying a big price. And we didn't talk about even, I mean, with the war in Ukraine, obviously Ukraine produces a hell of a lot of wheat and crop for the poorest in the world. And if you look into where the wheat, if it gets out of the Black Sea region, goes to,

it mainly goes to European countries, Turkey and China. It doesn't really go to Africa where it should go. And it comes to us. Poland, Hungary, they said, we don't want it. They shut their borders. So it's coming straight through to Germany. And the Danish government only recently checked if it's contaminated with chemicals

which are not allowed in the European Union. And they said, yes, it is. It's also is official official but nobody cares. So we are not getting the price we should get for our crop our grains and we are getting over flown by grain from the Ukraine which is really bad. I mean obviously it's bad. First of all poor countries aren't getting it. We can't get rid of ours.

And the government's even paying some parts of the transport to Germany. So they are obviously using our tax money to make sure we get a bad price for our crop. Well, I think we were already talking about how demoralizing this agenda is. And food, of course, if you want to demoralize a people, I mean, it's done by feeding them bad food as well. I mean, Jordan, you know, I don't have to tell you about this, but the importance of good meat, of healthy animal fats, it's huge. And if you make people feel like the only thing that they deserve is, you know,

bad, bad meat or bugs, insects or synthetic meats, you know, feed, literally food that will make you weak. I think that says something about our establishment, you know, it says something about the way that we are governed. It says something about the way that we are ruled, that we are supposed to live as if we are livestock, that it can only eat insects or basically trash.

And who produce carbon dioxide simply by breathing, let's say, and produce children who are a net burden on the ecosphere, et cetera, et cetera, and want to travel and want to buy things and want to have a standard of living. Yeah, how dare you want to have a nice life? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. When everything you do does nothing but muck up the planet

and mar the future. Yeah, it is an absolutely bloody dismal view of humanity. That's for sure, and bordering on murderous. Yeah, it's Malthusian to say the least. And I mean, you know, we're getting about, we're joking now, but there was an actual headline not too long ago in the press here in the UK and in Europe quoting a study that said that breathing causes climate change. Yeah, right. But you know, what's the consequence of that then? Do you want me to stop breathing?

That's the only answer to the problem then, right? So, yes, it's absolute content. So, you know, the human progress people have documented the fact that every baby born will produce seven times the economic resources that every baby consumes. And so the idea, that's the historical average at the moment, the idea that more people means more poverty and more environmental degradation is not only a lie, it's an anti-truth. And here's another. So imagine, first of all, if every baby consumed more than it produced, then people on average would starve.

And on average, a far smaller proportion of people are starving than has ever been the case in the entire history of the planet. We're going to peak out at about 9 billion, and it's crystal bloody clear that we could manage that. And then there's going to be a precipitous decline. That's the demographic outlook, and that's within this century. Then here's some, so the idea that each person born produces less than they consume is a complete bloody lie. It's out by a factor of seven. And then here's the clincher.

This is so staggering. The best data indicates quite clearly that if you can get poor people, so absolutely poor people, not relatively poor people, so people in danger of food privation, let's say, and lacking opportunity for their children. If you can get them up to a point where they are producing $5,000 US GDP per year, they immediately start to take a medium and long-term view of, let's say, environmental stability and sustainability

because they have enough wherewithal and enough resources at their disposal so that they don't have to be in a permanent state of crisis that incentivizes them to burn up and consume everything around them. So the best data indicates very very clearly that if we drove energy prices down or allowed them to decline as we could if we used intelligent nuclear technology, for example, we could raise the planetary standard of living to the point where everybody locally would start to become

concerned about environmental issues and act naturally in a manner that would provide for a more sustainable world. Instead, we're doing the opposite to virtue signals stupidly. We're cranking energy prices up, claiming that all the industrial activity has to cease, making poor people even poorer and putting them at risk of starvation. All that's going to do, as it's already started to do in Germany, is make both the economy and the environment worse, and it's going to breed,

well, more and more uprising of the sort that we're seeing everywhere. You couldn't imagine a more counterproductive agenda, and to say it again, counterproductive, even by the standards of the people who are hypothetically putting the agenda forward. It's like, why the hell would you oppose nuclear power? That's utterly insane, especially in a place like Germany, especially when you Germans then have to import nuclear power from the Scandinavians and the French.

You know, it's so blind that it's a miracle. But it baffles me already that we live in a time apparently where we have to justify our existence with data. You know, that's something that deeply bothers me. It deeply bothers me. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, and you know, this will of course

lend me another label in secular Europe, but I think that the death of God that you so often discuss as well is ultimately the main reason for that. You know, if you forget that people have intrinsic value because they are created in the image of God, and they're just a number, and we have to work to net zero, and we need to now see if you add something or take too much, and you have to justify to net zero and we need to now see if you add something or take too much and you have to justify your own existence by quoting scientific studies. I think we've gone off the road, man. And bad time.

Are we China now? Is that what we are? These people have their mouths full constantly. They're always talking about human rights here and there. But now we have come to a point where we have to justify our entire existence to our Malthusian overlords and I'm not okay with it. I'm not okay with it. Yeah, I'm not okay.

I'm not okay with it either. And the whole Malthusian proposition, so let's just walk through that a second. So that's a biological metaphor. So let's just walk through that a minute, just to show exactly how wrong it is. Okay. So now there's lots of situations in which the use of biological metaphors can shed light on human nature and even the nature of human, what would you say, striving and thriving.

So psychologists use mouse models all the time, and that's partly because the neurochemistry of a mouse brain, for example, it's very partly because the neurochemistry of a mouse brain for example is very similar to the neuro chemistry of a human brain. There's all sorts of analogs in behavior and function that are relevant but the Malthusian doctrine is based on a very low-level analogy. So the analogy is essentially this, if you put a microorganism in a petri dish so it has enough agar, enough food substrate so that it can thrive, it will multiply to the point where, and rapidly, geometrically or

exponentially, to the point where it consumes all of its resources and then it will catastrophically collapse. Okay, and so, and you can see that same thing occurring in some natural populations. If you provide a natural population with no predation and a plethora of resources in a constrained environment, then the population will grow until it consumes all the resources and collapse. Okay, so why aren't people microorganisms in a petri dish? Well, there are some constraints on what we can produce and consume. Like there's different, what would you say, scarcity of different fundamental elements, for example, such that some things will always be more expensive than others or almost others,

almost always. There's some natural scarcity. But here's the fundamental difference between human beings and other creatures. So we can produce, we can innovate and we can produce variants of ourselves that can die instead of us. So on the innovation front, the innovation front and these things are tied together because we can think, because we can transform cognitively, we don't have to die or vary genetically. We can transform cognitively, that's our niche.

And the fact that we can transform cognitively means that we can make constant scarcity into variable plenitude. And we've done that constantly. Things we regard as natural resources, hydrocarbons, for example, oil, gas, those things were of zero value in 1820, zero. They weren't natural resources at all.

It wasn't until we figured out how to use them, how to substitute them for whale oil, for example, that they became this unbelievable source of wealth that was immediately available everywhere. It was a cognitive transformation and revolution. And there's no end to the degree to which we can use that cognitive revolution to increase plenitude. And that's exactly why, for example,

that every baby born today will produce seven times as much as they consume. Now, you might say, at some scale, there's going to be some limit to plenitude but it isn't obvious at all that what that's going to be and it certainly isn't obvious that we've reached that limit. That's especially true when you consider

the possibility of computation. Because we're in this situation now where our computing resources, which take up comparatively little resources and energy, are multiplying at a rate that's absolutely beyond comprehension. And we have no idea how much we're going to know in 10 years. So the Malthusian notion, there isn't anything about the Malthusian notion that's correct except for yeast and bacteria. And if you're going to treat people like yeast and bacteria,

then we're gonna be in the same damn situation that we're in now, right? Where we have to justify our existence by data because the world is full of scarcity and maybe the only the elites who have our best interests in mind are going to be allowed to thrive. Yeah.

I think I can think of a far right ideology that talked about people as being dirty and bacteria. And now we are dealing with a left-wing ideology that is doing the exact same thing and making us justify our existence. And yet they call the people who opposed to it far-right. So we're full circle. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I saw recently that Trudeau's minions are now, what would you say, working behind the scenes to ensure that the public health officials at the World Health Organization, who are so concerned with the control of the next pandemic, just like they were with the last one, are also now moving to ensure that climate catastrophe will be included within the domain of public health concern that the global overlords are going to be able to manage.

Your comment about far-right totalitarian governments treating people as if they're infectious agents, right? Cancers on the planet, let's say. We know perfectly well, again, from the data, that that drives a totalitarian agenda. As soon as you use language of contamination, pollution, and disgust to characterize someone, let's say human beings, you immediately elicit the unconscious and conscious activations of the discussed systems that

protect us from contamination. And those are very dangerous once they're activated. They aim at destruction, right, at the destruction of the pathogen. Yes. And those people, those are the ones that the farmers, the truckers, the people that we've seen out on the streets today have protested against. That's why they were out on the street. And when I said that earlier in this conversation,

we have been speaking to people who feel like they are ruled by people who hate them. And that's maybe they can't voice exactly why. You know, they can come up with examples. Obviously they are feeling it in their own finances, but they can tell. And I think that people ultimately on a human level, on a soul level can feel when they are being despised by others.

And this exactly this notion that you are just describing right now, Jordan, that I think is the motor behind this protest. People can sense that they are being hated, people can sense that they are being despised, and they are done with it. Because they realize that they are the hated, people can sense that they are being despised, and they are done with it. Because they realize that they are the ones paying for it, and that the state should be here to serve us, not the other way around.

Anthony, just out of curiosity, you and Ava have just talked about the breadth and depth of this protest and its positive effects, but you closed by pointing out, for example, that the finance minister that you guys talked to or that spoke to you right at the close of the protests doesn't seem to have learned a damn thing,

which doesn't surprise me in the least. And so that makes me question just how effective what you've done so far is, and I want your opinions about that. And then I'm also curious, like, why didn't your now-united organization, given your 80% level of public support, call for something approximating a general strike and just bring the whole bloody thing to a halt? Yeah, but that would be the obvious thing, but our...

Well, how should I explain it? Well, actually it's against the law to do this general strike because it obviously is against the law, but I reckon we have to come to the stage where we have to break the law sometimes, which does not mean in violence, it's like just... Several disobedience. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's probably the next stage. But we have to talk about that between us, between the organizations. But you're completely right. I mean, we gave the government two options or they are two options. Either they turn back to a policy which is for the people, like if I said, which is definitely not. I mean, we forgot loads of things which are going completely wrong in Germany. I mean, we have a farming minister who's telling us we should only eat, and this is not a joke, 10 grams meat per day. Right?

Honestly, what they are trying to tell us, 10 grams. Right? Which is nothing. Yeah, when the politicians start telling you what you can and can't eat, we've crossed a line. It's like, you don't get to tell me where I set my thermostat. You don't get to tell me what I can drive and when, and you certainly bloody well don't get to tell me where I set my thermostat. You don't get to tell me what I can drive and when, and you certainly bloody well don't get to tell me what I can eat.

Like fundamentally and seriously to hell with you. And what it also indicates to me, and increasingly clearly, is that once you're waving the flag of planetary savior on the environmentalist front, once you've turned 100% to that kind of nature worship, there is absolutely no level of control whatsoever that you won't stoop to and justify by your moral pretension, right?

Redounding to your credit and increasing your power at the same time as it does. So all right, so they're perfect. So this begs the question though, doesn't it? Like I watched Claudine Gay resign from Harvard and I've watched the moderate left wingers flap about now in increasing consternation, recognizing as they do the absolute danger of the diversity, equity

and inclusivity idiocy that's part and parcel of this, what would you say, radical leftist line of anti-human thinking. But at the same time, I see that I don't believe that Harvard as an institution has learned a damn thing. And I don't believe that the moderates on the Democrat side in the United States, for example, have any idea whatsoever how deep

the ideological corruption and rot has become. And so you've pushed forward this protest, but as you said yourself, you still have members of the government firmly in charge who think that we should eat 10 grams of meat a day and who don't believe that they're going to throw you a bone or two maybe in the near future. But the probability that they're going to revisit the ideology upon which they've based their political empire strikes me to be close to zero. So again, you said the future's uncertain and unpredictable. What do you think is going to

happen and what should happen? We have three elections this year in East Germany, and East Germany, the polls show that the far right party, the AFD in Germany, is by far in the lead in these polls, and which will be like an earthquake in our politician in Germany, because we never had this situation. And if this happens, and I reckon it will because like you said they will not change their policy things will change rapidly in Germany because like you know politicians they want power and to get power you have to compromise and now and even though they now they now say we will we never compromise we never go together with this party I reckon just because they

want the whatever the power they will and that will be a landslide it will be never compromise, we never go together with this party, I reckon just because they want the, whatever they want the power, they will. And that will be a landslide, it will be completely changed in Germany. But that, saying that, that might even still, I still have hope, I don't know if hope's the right word, that our actual government will change the way they govern. Not by 180 degrees, which we need, but maybe a few degrees. And these two options are on the table, and only these two options. Okay, well something similar to that has happened in the Netherlands. So now, Eva, what's the status of the government in the Netherlands?

And is Gert Wilder is going to head up the new government? Is that how it looks? And what do you think of him? And what do you think, again, let's talk about this a little bit. What do you think the dangers are that present themselves in consequence of that in the Netherlands? The same thing applies to Germany. We could also talk about the AFD to some degree because they're certainly pilloried as far right

in Western media, certainly in North America. They're viewed as to right of Viktor Orban, I would say. And he's definitely persona non-gratit to the legacy media. So let's start with the situation again in Netherlands and then move to what you see Eva as being most likely in Germany. I'd like to hear your thoughts about the AFD as well.

Okay. So we are still in the process of forming a coalition right now. As I said, we have a very scattered political landscape. And so all of the parties that one will need to form or have negotiations and form ultimately a coalition to have a majority in parliament. So without that, it's going to be difficult to have a majority in parliament. So without that, it's going to be difficult to pass any legislation, obviously. So this process is very important. What is now happening is that the, let's just say the legacy parties, the establishment parties that have ruled the Netherlands, and I would say destroyed it actively for the past 30 years,

are doing everything in their power to stall that process, because Heard Builders is becoming increasingly popular. As I said, he got one out of four votes in the elections just a month ago, and now he's polling at one in three votes. So the last thing that they want right now is the coalition formation process to fail, and for new general elections

to be called because then he's going to become even bigger. So what I think the political strategy at home is, is they're going to stall that process for as long as possible. The parties, the moderate right wing party, the centrist parties, they're going to pretend to be willing to work with him and then they're going to drag it out so long, and they're going to say at a certain point, well, this man is just impossible, and they're already saying that he has said

things that go against the Constitution, and that are a threat to the rule of law, etc. So they're building their case. I think that that is something that we see everywhere, is that this is a war of attrition, essentially. So we have to be prepared for all of these games. However, I think something similar might happen in Germany, but what I do think is that the genie is out of the bottle

with the people. And that to me is ultimately the only thing that matters. I don't put any of my solace in the political party system anyway. What I do care about is the willingness of people to stand up for what they believe is right and to not be intimidated by people who lie about them and about what they stand for, right?

So what I think is going to happen in Germany with AFD, the people that I have met from AFD, what I've seen about AFD is they are conservative people who essentially are saying, well, the idea, Merkel's idea to let 1.2 million migrants in in one year in 2015 might have not been the greatest idea. You know, to me, that's a very legitimate standpoint, extraordinarily legitimate, especially because there is no alternative, no pun intended, in Germany really, aside from, precise from the parties that have destroyed the country

very actively. So I think that they are going to win by a much larger margin than the polls suggest right now, just like what happened for us, because the PVV was also not, you know, they weren't pulled at the extent that they now have won the elections with. And I think that that will change something in the mindset of the Germans. Because like I said, if even in Germany, that label doesn't hold enough power anymore to deter people from voting for change, then you really know that the government is messed up. You really know the establishment has messed up and that the people are fed up.

So I personally, I think that Germans who want change have no choice really, but to vote for the right-wing parties. And I would say essentially not for any party that has governed the nation in the last 10 years. Okay, so do you see, and I'd like both your opinions on this, it's so difficult to get a handle on any of this, say, because, you know, It's so difficult to get a handle on any of this, say, because I've been watching the political landscape for a very long time. And certainly the idea of Geert Bilders has raised my hackles in the past. And I would say that's because I'm profoundly, at least,

because I'm relatively ignorant about politics in the Netherlands and still susceptible to the consensus view developed by the low resolution pictures presented by the legacy media. And so I don't know what to make of that and exactly the same thing applies to the AFD. And so I'd like to know from both of you, what dangers if any, you think this tilt towards this more, we've already taken apart the notion of the right.

God only knows even what that is anymore, given the overuse of the term. But do either of you have any qualms about these political transformations? Do you think that they could, just because you're fighting something that in and of itself is reprehensible and destructive doesn't mean that the weapons that you use to fight it can't also pose precisely the

same danger. So, Eva, maybe you could start by commenting on that, especially with regards to the AFD and then, Anthony, you could chime in with regard to Germany. Well, I mean, these are both the upsides and the downsides of democracy in general that we're discussing, I think. So of course, the the instruments or the alternative can also turn bad. But then that's inherent to democracy and the fact that we have to form coalitions in our democratic systems at least, that's somewhat of a safeguard in a sense that they are going

to have to work together with other parties anyway. So let's say, God forbid that these parties turn out to have crazy ideas that we absolutely didn't want and didn't vote for. We have to either trust in the fact that the system will correct it, or I think you can throw away the entire concept of democracy almost all together. Right? So, I think that a lot of people here are trying to use the possibility of maybe IFD going too far in certain aspects or not having, I hear another argument often that they say,

oh, well, they don't have good people. They don't have enough people with enough qualities to govern the country. I'm like, well, I don't have good people. They don't have enough people with enough qualities to govern the country. I'm like, well, I don't know if the people who are in power right now do. Like, clearly, you guys have a bit of an issue on your hand. So you might as well try. And I think that that is essentially what this country needs.

Something needs to happen. And like I said, I'm not one to put all of my solace and trust and hope in the political system anyway. But it is very clear to me that Germany and Europe in general is on a path of national suicide. So might as well try something else for once. And I, you know, because I find myself in the position so often that I've been called far right for what I think are perfectly valid opinions that that I care a little bit less at this point. I'm like, no, I think something just needs to change here.

I try to trust in the democratic system and that it will affect itself. That terrifying specter Maloney in Italy, who everyone and Sundry was warned about in no uncertain terms forever. You know, tantamount to Mussolini and her fascist proclivities has turned out to be a hell of a lot more moderate even than the people who voted for her might have hoped. So these specters of fascism that keep looming turn out to have a lot less teeth than feared when they end up, what would you say, when they end up acquiring a certain degree of political power. Now, you know, Orban has been the most successful

conservative figure in some ways on the European scene, and he's still demonized roundly and continually in the Western media, but it's also been my apprehension with regard to Hungary that things are nowhere near as dismal there as they might have been given all the fear that was engendered around Orban's policies. And so what do you think about that? And then Anthony, we'll turn to your feelings about the AFD in Germany.

Yeah, I think you're very right. I mean, when I go to Hungary, for example, personally, and when I speak to other people who go there, a lot of people feel like they can finally take a breather. It's like, oh, that's nice. This is what Europe used to be like 50 years ago, 30 years ago in some countries, even less. And I am upset as a 27-year-old

that I have never experienced Europe as safe, as functioning, as sane, normal, dare I say, you know, as I find a city like Budapest to be. You know, my parents had that experience. My grandfather sure as heck had that experience, but I never had it and I never voted for it. You know, I have always growing up had to be afraid going out after dark. It's just that's our reality right now and that's our reality not because it happened like a natural disaster, but because people in power made the wrong decisions actively. the wrong decisions actively. And I think that everybody can agree to the fact that a country like Hungary is not the

dictatorship that they make it out to be in the media. What I saw the time, especially the last time I was in Budapest, I was there for a symposium on promotion of the family, which seemed to be a relatively positive and certainly a non-Malthusian concern. I mean, if you're in the airports in Budapest, for example, what you see are plethora of posters celebrating the family as the core bedrock social institution of the polity. And that just doesn't strike me as particularly Nazi

and it's derivation, especially. And so this, and I know the president of Hungary to some degree, and she's a woman who is quite admirable in my estimation, who spent most of her career trying to figure out how to protect the family and how to economically incentivize the role that women play in reproduction, in keeping with opening up the opportunities for them on the economic front in general, and has produced policies that have decreased abortion substantially without force,

decreased divorce, increased the marriage rate, and also increased the rate at which women are participating in the broader general economy. And so none of that particularly screams fascism to me. And the fact too that we've seen, well, that the consequences of the election of Bologna and also one of the so-called far-right parties in Sweden seems to me to indicate that there's a lot more fear there than is justified by the consequences, especially in contrast to this absolutely insane utopian self-serving moralizing green agenda that provides an absolute excuse for everything you can possibly conceptualize. Anthony, in terms of the AFD, how do you think it is being perceived by the protesting class now,

the people that you've been talking to, the truckers, the farmers, the people who work for the railways, the dock workers because they were all involved in this protest as well? What dangers do you as a German citizen, see on the fascist side, so to speak, as a consequence of these populist movements? Well, me myself, I'm in politics for the last eight years, and I was in the CDU. That was a party from Angela Merkel. And I left the party about a year ago and I moved to the parties called Freyja Vila. I would say they are the old CDU as I knew

it 20 years ago. And the AFD, yes, it's a far right party, which is gaining on popularity massively. And the main reason is, I think, is the same reason like in Italy and in Sweden migration. We have a massive migration problem in Germany. We have, I say, around about five to six million people since 2015 who came to Germany. And at the moment, we are way over 300,000 this year and It's it's not the problem with my migration

The problem is who is coming and we don't even know who is coming up to 2010 I was police I was a police officer in Berlin We had a massive problem with migrants in them days because out the migrants who come now are mainly young men from Muslim countries and Like I said, we don't even know who is coming because they come in they are they are allowed to stay here Even though it's against the law and we don't obey the law the government doesn't obey the law like it like it should be and Governments like Sweden. I mean, Sweden is very liberal, as I know it. Even Denmark, you didn't mention Denmark because Denmark isn't governed by a right-wing party, but they are governed by a female president who is social democrat, but what she did is she uses the same methods, the politics, the right-wing

party kind of is. And that's why the right-wing parties in Denmark aren't existent anymore, to be honest. So it's not who runs a country, which right or left-wing, it's what policy do you do in your country? Talking about the AFD, it's very, very strong in East Germany because the East Germans, I think they have, we say they're better antennas, which you know me because they come from the DDRs. So the older people who lived in a climate like they did, they know if something's not going right in your country. And that's why they turn to the AFD more than we in the West do.

And many say they should be forbidden the party should be forbidden and And I don't and I say who am who are we the people to say it's not It should be forbidden or it's not the Democratic Party for me only one Institution could say that that's a high court in Germany If they say yes, they should be forbidden, okay. But me or the press, aren't the people or the institutions to say that? So like I said a few minutes ago, it will be very interesting to see how the AFD and the CDU, if they compare with each other, if they go together after the three elections we have in East Germany, that would be very interesting.

Well you talked about antenna, you know, and I've traveled extensively with my wife through Eastern Europe in the last years, multiple times, many, many different countries, meeting with many, many people. And certainly one of the things I saw was that the survivors of the Soviet regime, which is all those people, are much more sensitive to the dangers posed and the reality of the radical leftist agenda that is sweeping over the Western world in the hypothetical guise of the continuance of liberalism. And that's antennae, and much more likely as they did in Hungary in consequence and to Poland in some degree, although not recently. But in Hungary, to favour modes of apprehension and governance that keep the communist specter, that specter of centralized planning, for example, at as much bay as possible. And so that seems to be reflected, for example,

in the attitude of the East Germans that you just described toward the globalist, utopian quasi-green agenda that we've been discussing. My sense has been quite strong in recent years that the bastion of European civilization, that would be Judeo-Christian civilization in Europe, is now shifted to Eastern Europe rather than Western Europe. With the UK playing a rather ambivalent role in that regard because it's this country that's very split with the Brexit people more aligned with the Eastern Europeans and the, well, the Labour Party, which is most likely to be the next government, much more aligned with the globalist Utopians in Brussels. So, Eva, what's on your slate now? The protests in Germany have come to the protests in Germany have come to their current conclusion. And then, Anthony, maybe you can tell us,

what's the next move that lays in front of the protesters? So, Eva, what are you up to next? And what are you working on, and what do you hope to have happen in the near future? Well, talking about communism and the agenda and the similarities with the agenda that we are facing right now, I've spoken very often about the global war on farming, right?

That's the reason why I'm here right now. That's the reason why I decided to join the protests in the Netherlands to speak out, is I want to make people aware of, again, this utopian green deal and the net zero agenda and ultimately the agenda 2030, which is a United Nations agenda that I think is at the core of this. And that agenda, to me, reeks of communism more than anything else, but you have to really

see through the pretext that they use. So everybody, the entire world, right, is part of the United Nations. And the United Nations have laid out sustainable development goals that are ultimately at the top of the hierarchy, you know, for all of these policies that we are facing right now, that if you look at them at face value, they look very noble. I think one of the first ones is to end world hunger. But then if you think about how they would put that into practice, none of those goals can ever be achieved or

attained without the redistribution of wealth, good, goods, foods, rights. So that ultimately to me is this is neoccommunism or neo-feudalism you could even say I guess packaged just a little bit nicer, you know? It's like, oh, we are here to save you, but if you look at the reality of things and I think that we are all currently already experiencing that, what will happen just like with communism in the old days is that the ordinary people will become poorer and more miserable and the top layer will become even richer. And that's what we are facing today and I will continue, I guess, my fight and my plight

for the farmers in that sense because I truly believe that the farmers are the one group, especially, and I know that this is also a very radical thing to say in a European context, but we in Europe, we don't have a second amendment. I think that the sort of the spirit of wanting to protect your people against a tyrannical government is not as embedded in our minds as it is in let's say the American debate, right? So it's really important that people become aware

of the fact that yes, we can also face tyrannical governments. And the pretty words that they use are just pretty words, but you are going to end up poor and miserable. And so... Well, so the farmers, so you see, and this seems to be a late motif for your political operating is that you seem to react as if, if it bothers the farmers and the truckers, it's probably wrong. And that seems to me to be an extremely useful rule of thumb, and it's also one you'd think the bloody leftists would adhere to, given their hypothetical concern with the working class, right? Because you can't get more bedrock working class than farmers and truckers.

So, and that does seem to me to be a reasonable measurement tool. If the policies are bothering the farmers and making them protest, something is up because that's just not how farmers operate, not generally. And the same can be said for truckers. When they're goaded into political action, something genuinely rotten is occurring. And you know, with this regard to these sustainable development goals, if you wanted to feed the bloody poor, the first thing you

would do is lower energy costs by whatever means necessary. And so if you think you can quintuple energy costs and feed the poor, you're an idiot or you're malevolent, or you're narcissistically self-serving or some terrible combination of all of that. Yeah. Yeah. So my goal for now is to, I mean, I want this agenda abolished, right? I want the 2030 agenda abolished. I don't want to vote for politicians who say, oh, yeah, maybe it goes a little too fast.

Let's push it to 2035. You know, a fast way to hell or a long way to hell, it's still a way to hell. And I just want the whole thing gone. So that's where I see my role in this, and I want to continue my political commentary. And in that sense, I met you guys in service because I have not forgotten where my food comes from.

And I want to be able to continue to eat healthy foods and live my life freely and decide where I travel, when I travel, who I meet, what I eat, and I don't want the damn globalists in my business. So I know that if the farmers fall, like I said, they are the group in our society that can make a true, you know, stance against the globalists. They have the manpower, as we've seen,

to really paralyze an entire country. And so I hope that they do go and strike and that they don't let themselves be intimidated by these people who will come after you, but then will let illegal migrants flood your nation and won't send them back, talking about equality before the law. I mean, so I'm at your service.

I will support you as much as I can, and I find it extraordinarily important what you've done and very brave, especially in a nation like Germany, so. Okay, Anthony, so what's next for you personally? The protests, this current round of protests is folding down, so what do you go back to? And then what do you see unfolding in front of you and your protesting peers in the, well,

let's say in the next year? Well, in the next year, we have to get rid of this government. No matter how, this year, Germany cannot survive two more years of this government. And I mean it, honestly. Like I told you earlier, we had our finance minister, he's from the free democratic party. And he told us today on stage, because I forgot to mention this,

we in Germany are farmers, we have to leave 4% of our land not seeded. So nothing is allowed to happen on this land because our Green Minister wants this to happen. Say in the same sentence, we have to fight because there are so many people starving to death on this world. We have to fight for every handful of grain.

This is ridiculous. It's insane, actually. And he's right in one point. Every 3.8 seconds, a human being dies, starves to death. Every 13 seconds, a child under five years dies of lack of food, right? And in the same sentence, we are over flooded with grain from Ukraine, and then we have to leave 4% of our land where we have to pay tax,

and we're not allowed to seed anything on this land. It's insane. But our finance minister today said, it's a point we can talk to. So there's a goal maybe to divide these two parties in this government. I mean, they are divided anyway. But we can really put pressure on these free democratic elected persons, people or politicians, because they are below 4%. In Germany, you need 5% to make the jump into parliament. So all these people, all these politicians from the free democratic party, obviously they have interest in the next, to be in the next parliament or whatever, either in charge or not.

But if we put pressure on that, this will make us or give us a chance to divide and maybe get rid of the government. So this is what we're going to do. And I mean that we have to escalate another level in our protests and we are capable of doing that easily. And watch them come after you for saying this, by the way. They will. Like talking about the totalitarian spirit of the Germans, that never left. And it's very much present in the current government.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they, because they've already attacked you so massively in the media, I wouldn't be surprised if this would lend us an investigation with what they call, this is the Fafassung Schutz, like the protection of the Constitution. There's a whole agency that comes after ordinary people and censors them. Okay. Well, but let's put all that in context. I mean, one of the things that I've been struck by

in listening to you two is that you both, both implicitly and explicitly, indicated your belief that the best possible way of sorting all of this out is through the democratic means that we already have in place. Now, you talked about the necessity for protest and the right to protest, and sometimes the necessity for civil disobed the right to protest and sometimes the

necessity for civil disobedience but nowhere in any of our discussion that did either of you indicate that there's any better way forward than the electoral process and the checks and balances that are associated with that with regard to say the necessity for coalition building in both the Netherlands and in Germany. And so if they do come after you, it isn't because you've been calling for violent revolution, and it isn't because you're basically

turned the government on its head and established some sort of dictatorship radicals. You know, you both, and this is actually something that's very positive to see, is you do believe, you both, and this is actually something that's very positive to see, is you do believe, you appear to believe, that we can work out these problems within the democratic frameworks that we've already established. And more importantly, that there is no better way that we know of to work them out.

And that seems to me to be correct, you know? I mean, it's incumbent on us if we're facing political or ideological strategies that we don't agree with to find our way forward in a manner that doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And so, well, and then you see the example in the Netherlands too of the fact

that the kinds of protests that it hasn't been as effective in Canada by the way, but although we'll see what the long-term consequences are in the next election, you have shown in the Netherlands that farmers there certainly showed that these wide-scale protests, civil protests, and they have been markedly civil like they were in Canada, can and do have a walloping impact on the structures of governance. And so, you know, maybe we need to take something approximating a five-year view of this, you know, that this is the beginning of something new and we don't want to get too hot and

bothered about doing anything too radically stupid and we can let the electoral process play itself out. And so does that seem in keeping with what you're hoping, both of you? Absolutely. And let me point out, our protest in the last week, I mean, we had probably 200,000 farmers and tractors out on the roads. And we had so many normal workers out, the truck drivers were out on the streets. And it was so friendly and peaceful. We had no, I mean in Holland we saw some scenes where police even used a weapon on one farmer. There was nothing like that.

I mean, honestly, not even, nobody got arrested, nobody got even a ticket for fine for anything. I mean, imagine that so many people out on the street and in context to that yesterday, we had a demonstration in Berlin, a left wing demonstration with 21 injured police officers. Right, this is one demonstration in Berlin and one week of demonstrations all over Germany with hundreds of thousands of people out, not even a ticket, not even a fine, nothing. So nobody can tell us we are not peaceful. And like I said, I was a police officer, I know what some demonstrations can turn out to be and still be in legal rights

and we will carry on peaceful, friendly, but we need to increase the power. And like Eva said, we have the power. We can shut down the country for good. And we will do if necessary. So that's also a very optimistic set of observations because, you know, not only did you point out that the people who were protesting did so like the Canadian truckers did with extremely peaceably, in fact, the crime rate in Ottawa fell during the trucker convoy, but also the authorities in Germany, as you pointed out, responded in kind, right? And that there wasn't provocation and there wasn't violence. And so that's all the more reason why we can be optimistic that these difficult discussions

that we're having about how we're going to conduct ourselves into the future can be done within the confines of the legal frameworks and the electoral frameworks that are already established and with hopefully a certain degree of goodwill and intelligent foresight on all sides. So, well, good. All right. Well, look, you two. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. Well, we'll keep in touch,

all three of us with any degree of luck, because I definitely want to watch as this unfolds. I certainly share your sense, Eva, that if it's upsetting the farmers and the truckers, then something serious has gone astray, and that everyone should be attending to. That's particularly true for farmers in places like the Netherlands and Germany,

who are, as Anthony pointed out, well, generally extraordinarily competent people in a very, very difficult enterprise with their ears to the ground and their eyes open and also very unlikely to act politically unless necessity has driven them to that extreme. And for everybody watching and listening on YouTube, your time and attention is much appreciated.

You wanna be alert to the goings on in Europe on the populist uprising front in Spain, in Poland, in Germany, in the Netherlands, because this is a harbinger of things to come. All right, till we talk again. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thank you.