The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1007: Found Wisdom in Woo-Woo — Am I In a Cult Too? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: June 21, 2024

You've thrived in a group some call a cult. Are you really accessing the world's mysteries, or just being suckered by shysters? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: You've been deeply involved in an organization that's brought you personal growth and success, but some have raised suspicions that it might be a cult. With expensive programs, controversial teachings, and an elitist hierarchy, you wonder if you've gained genuine wisdom or just been skillfully manipulated. What's the truth behind this modern mystery? You're in an open marriage, but your husband's relationship with another woman has crossed boundaries and is threatening your marital union. She's moved in, turned him against you, and now you're considering legal action. How can you address this situation and potentially save your relationship? Your sister, who has epilepsy and cognitive disabilities, is turning 18 soon. Her father, your ex-stepfather, has been making questionable decisions about her care and education. How can you protect and support her as she transitions into adulthood? You were adopted at birth and have always been curious about your biological parents. You've met your birth mother, but she's hesitant to provide information about your birth father. How can you navigate the complex process of searching for your biological father while respecting everyone involved? Listener Pete Dinnella has sadly left us. His wife Barbara shares the bittersweet details of his final days and we encourage anyone who wants to help her in the aftermath of this tragedy to contribute to their GoFundMe. Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1007 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer. The coaster preventing this sweaty glass of life conundra from leaving a permanent ring on the rich mahogany of our hearts, Gabriel Mizrahi. And much like a coaster, probably someone you only fully appreciate in your 30s, I would say. That's right. Before that, you're like, what are these things even for? On the Jordan Harbinger show, yeah, like, it's from IKEA. I'm going to throw this away in a couple years. When I move it, it's going to break. So what do I care if there's a beer ring on it? On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode this, there's a metaphor in there. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those

around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Arms dealers, drug traffickers, undercover agents, four-star generals, CEOs, neuroscientists, and astronauts. This week we had the amazing Dr. David Faganbaum. This guy, man, he was dying of a rare disease, couldn't get a diagnosis, figured out what his disease was, and then figured out how to treat it all before dying. And he almost died like six times. And now he's fine, is fine, is and his whole thing now is finding treatments for rare diseases using drugs that are already

FDA approved. So they don't take like 10 years to get to market. They take like, you know, two weeks for them to be like, oh, off-label use, here's a form. All right, cool. Give it to everybody dying from this untreatable thing now. Amazing. We also had a part two kind of thing going with my friend, Dr. Romney-Dervasula. We talked about narcissism, as we always do with her. But this part is about how to deal with narcissists.

It's more tactical and practical. We also had a skeptical Sunday on memory, which followed from our guests from the previous week. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and compare Gabe to highly useful barware, I guess. Useful-ish barware. I wanted to share before we dive in today. I was reading Seth Godin's blog the other day. Seth's been on the show multiple times. Such an insightful dude and he shared this idea. I just wanted to pass along.

Don't rush, but hurry. The words matter. Rushing has a built-in excuse. Rushing pushes us to skip steps or ship junk, but hurrying acknowledges how precious this moment in time is. It honors our good fortune to be in this place able to contribute something generous. Not much I can add to that. kind of speaks for itself. Life is short. Time is precious. Got to make the most of it. But there's a big difference between rushing and hurrying, something I'm trying to embrace more myself these days. I feel like I'm a calendar right now, Gabe, one of those where you rip off the day and there's a quote under it. I kind of hate myself for that right now. Oh, who's comparing whom to various inanimate objects now? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, your bar where it goes on a table, I'm a calendar that gets ripped apart and is

useless after a year. There's a metaphor there too. Perfect. What a pair we make. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailback? Dear Jordan and Gabe, for the last four years, I have been willingly and enthusiastically involved in what may be a cult. I got to say, Jordan, the fact that he already knows it might be a cult already puts me at ease a little bit. Yeah, I might be in a cult. Okay.

Cool. You're halfway to not being an occult already. Yeah, same here. It's that basic skepticism that makes all the difference, but let's see where this is going. It's called the modern mystery school. The modern mystery school. Automatically chuckling. The modern mystery school sounds like a camp that the weird kids in your middle school go to every summer, but go on.

Let's not rip this guy's organization before we know what it's about, huh? Fine. As an avid listener of your show, how could this possibly be so? It sounds like a Dr. Seuss line. I think that was accidental. Was it accidental or did he mean that? Maybe. Is that a modern mystery school rhyme scheme?

You'll find out at the next edition of Modern Mystery School. Yeah, all right, do tell how this could be so. The group brands itself as an authentic mystery school that teaches the traditions, rituals, and teachings of a lineage that supposedly dates back thousands of years. Many respected poets, philosophers, and scientists were affiliated with this group, and I've been a fan of this stuff for years. When I first joined, I scoured message boards, blogs, and the group's website, and any publication that existed about the school. There are several blog posts out there claiming that the leaders are charlatans, that the classes are expensive, and many other things that I found to be valid complaints. But they honestly seem to be more personal than a reflection of the group itself and my experience in it. There's one scathing vice article claiming that the founder is a manipulative phony,

that upper-level leaders host wild orgies, and that one of the leaders has made inappropriate sexual advances, among other things. I've since heard from a few dozen members about this article, and everyone, I've spoken to claims it's completely inaccurate. Two long-time members told me that the person who wrote the article left the school after owing a significant amount of money for classes and an unresolved dispute with one of the leaders. In other words, she stood to gain a lot by twisting her experience, fabricating details, and writing a hit piece for vice. When I asked one of my teachers, a 20-year member of the school who's been friends with the founder since it became a

public organization about this piece, they said with a chuckle, oh, believe me, if they were having sex parties, I would have been invited, while also validating the integrity of the leader who was accused of making inappropriate advances. Interesting. So a mixed picture, definitely some worrisome facts here, but also maybe some mixed motivations and competing narratives. It's hard to know what to do with all those. Funny that this teacher thinks they would have been invited to the sex parties, I think we'd all like to believe that if there's an orgy list, we're on it. But sadly, that is just unlikely to be the case for most of us, I think. I mean, there were high-level nexia members saying the same thing before the full nightmare came out. Yeah, exactly. This teacher could have been the Nancy

Saltsman of the modern mystery school, just totally naive about what's actually happening behind the scenes. But again, we have no way of knowing whether anything weird is truly going on. What's most interesting to me so far is that you are actively seeking out these criticisms and then you're openly discussing them with your leaders. I think that's a really good sign, actually. Yeah, and to these other members' credit, they don't seem to be punishing you for doing that. Based on what you've said so far, they're talking about these criticisms openly, they're chuckling. Yes, they're defending the group, but they're also not going like, how dare you buy into this? You are an enemy now shunned.

So my cult alarm bills aren't quite going off, although there are definitely some red flags here, just little ones. I really enjoy my involvement in this organization. The practices and principles have helped me deepen my meditation practice, build serious discipline in my life, develop much firmer boundaries and overall become a happier, more confident, successful person. I've doubled my income, left an unhealthy relationship, created an entirely new community of wonderful friends, and don't worry, none of them are members of this group. Man, this person is definitely a fan of this show. He already knows all the cult criteria will be running through, but look, I hear you, that is a good sign.

It is, yeah. So none of them are members of this group, achieved extended periods of celibacy and sobriety and excelled as an artist. Yes, this school. teaches some very woo-woo practices, you have to pay significant amounts of money for certain programs, and there is a hierarchy of power. But not once have I felt pressured beyond a sincere suggestion to take the next class or program. The style is more, take a program, we'll see when you're ready for the next one. There's no pressure to spend money beyond one's means, and I don't get the sense that people isolate themselves from their social groups. I've spoken to most of my dear friends about it. They're mostly very curious, and after seeing how it's impacted me, are actually eager to take classes

themselves. I've also mentioned it to my family, and my therapist knows plenty about it. Okay, good. All very encouraging, at least on the level of whether you're safe. I obviously don't know what other people's experiences in this group are, but it's generally good to have these other objective sources of insight and support, like a therapist. For sure, that can keep you grounded, keep you open to multiple perspectives. That's key. So he wraps up. What's your take on all of this? I also welcome any good rips from Roastmaster Jordan. Delivered, my friend. Yeah, you're Welcome. Signed and kudos to our friend here for coming up with this one, Bonified Magician or Misguided,

failed logician. Fascinating. Well, thanks for sharing so much with us and thanks for inviting us into your life in this way. It says a lot about you, that you want to stay objective here, that you're open to other people's opinions. I think that's really great. So look, I definitely have some concerns about this group. I personally don't go in for woo-woo stuff, as you know, although it can be harmless.

I don't love the classes are super expensive. I'm not crazy about the hierarchy of power thing. Gabe, I'm a little skeptical about this tradition goes back thousands of years. There's almost nothing that goes back thousands of years. And the stuff that does is ridiculously famous. Like Christianity goes back thousands of years. Modern mystery school? Like, okay, never heard of it. That goes back thousands of years. I've never heard of it either. But there are groups like that, right? That you just are kind of under the radar. And they just, I mean, but they can also claim that they're connected to something that goes back thousands of years. I'm not sure. That's what I'm thinking. It's like, oh, it wasn't called

that then. It was Freemasons. And before that, it was Judaism. It's like, wait a minute. Okay, but now you're like teaching people magic power. I don't know. Whenever anybody says that, I'm always like, hmm, although candidly, look, I'm not as worried about the hierarchy of power stuff because what organization doesn't have a hierarchy of power. Fair point. That's not inherently bad. It all depends on who is actually in power. But then there are these many claims that leaders are charlatans, the classes are expensive, the founder's manipulative, that he's a phony. But if it's been, again, if it's been around thousands of years, who's the founder? Like somebody who hung out with Jesus?

You know what I mean? Interesting. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. Well, that kind of proves your point, right? You founded the organization. Yeah. Oh, it's been around thousands of years except for this dude who started this thing in

1979. Okay. So they say the founder's manipulative. He's a phony. He might be crossing boundaries and making advances on members. The leaders are having wild orgies. That's another thing that makes me think this is just straight modern. because, again, we don't know about biblical characters being like,

and then he made an advance on Mary Magdalene, right? Like, this is obviously all modern stuff. I disagree. I think orgies are timeless. Orgies are timeless. I'm talking about unwelcome advances. Back in the biblical days, they just skipped straight to orgies. You ever see a painting of an unwelcome advance?

No. Have you ever seen a painting of an orgy? Yeah, yeah, I have. It's hard to ignore claims like this about leadership. It really, now, could some disgruntled former members be motivated to write hit pieces? Yeah, sure. But it is curious that there are multiple articles and blog posts about this stuff. And just because that hasn't been your experience, that doesn't mean it isn't happening and that it's not a problem. There are plenty of people who went to,

I'm going to get in trouble for this. There are plenty of people who went to Catholic Church and were altar boys and didn't get, you know, have any problem with the priests, right? But that doesn't mean that the other stuff never happened. On the other hand, I also hear you that this group has been extremely helpful. The benefits you mentioned, those sound very real and they sound very profound. and skills and decisions that we would encourage here on the show, except the celibacy part, not sure what's up with that. Don't necessarily advocate for it, but hey, if that's been helpful to you, great. Most people are not like, oh, I just wish I could stop having sex.

Most people, most of us have the opposite problem. You say you haven't felt pressure to spend more money and keep going. No one's isolating you. Those are green flags. Also, your school is not the only potentially legit organization that charges a lot of money. I mean, this is probably a bad example. but Tony Robbins seminars are not cheap either, not that that falls under my exact definition of totally legit organization. Therapy isn't cheap, though, that's legit. Coaches are expensive.

All this stuff is a business, but money does have a way of infecting every organization to some degree. And it's important to notice that too, even if your school is on the up and up, the ways they market their products, create demand. That's something to keep an eye on, not just with potential cults, but with any organization that benefits from your involvement. So if you're getting something meaningful this group, if it's enriching your life, if it's empowering you to make healthier choices, I think that's great, more power to you. The questions you need to be asking yourself are, are the questionable parts of this organization worth the upsides? Do I absolutely need this group? Do I need to pay these people and give them my time and money and energy and devotion in order

to enjoy these benefits? Or can I run with what I've learned so far and or continue growing on my own? And maybe most importantly, is there anything manipulative or coercive whatsoever happening here? You're saying no, I believe you. But again, this is really important to remember in organizations, especially big ones. Your experience might be different from other people's. Like Gabe said, there were probably very satisfied nexium members who were thriving in their careers and convinced nothing bad was happening up until the end. But the most important thing you need to do is stay connected to yourself, to your healthy skepticism,

to your independent thinking, to your intuition. If I were you, I would just keep reading up on the organization, the good, the bad, all of it. It's good that they don't sort of try and, I mean, look at Scientology. They won't let you read stuff on the internet because you're going to get pneumonia if you read bad things about the cult. I mean, it's ridiculous. I would even reach out to the folks who wrote these pieces. Maybe see if you can talk to them for a few minutes. Respectfully ask them about their experiences, suss them out, see how credible they are, what they went through.

I would continue to bring up your questions and concerns with your peers, your leaders, see how they respond. You don't need to be disrespectful or annoying, and it doesn't sound like you're doing that. You don't need to launch a whole crusade. You can just say, you know, hey, I've been reading about some of our critics. I want to understand where they're coming from, why some members don't have the experience. We had where our school works, where it doesn't work. What do you make of all this? Is there anything to this person's story?

How do you feel about all this? And if you ever get severe pushback from them, like if they turn on you or they shame you or they retaliate in a more obvious way, that's very important data for you. I think so. Healthy leaders, safe organizations. They make room for disagreement, for criticism. they might disagree. They might explain. They might defend themselves. But what they don't do, a good leader doesn't do is punish people for challenging them. Exactly. By bringing this stuff up with leadership,

in a way you're creating a little test, a very interesting test. How does my organization respond to criticism? That's more telling and more immediately reliable than assessing the accuracy of various people's stories, many of which you might not be able to verify yourself. Besides that, I would just keep talking to your friends, your family, your therapist for sure, about all of this. and don't just talk about the benefits. Make room for the red flags, the criticisms too. And if you discover new information, if you find that your experience in this group is changing,

if something ever doesn't sit well with you, I would take stock of that. You need to approach this like a scientist, which, by the way, you're already doing, which I love. But, you know, the whole, all data is friendly philosophy, right? Follow it wherever it leads. Your goal should be to get an accurate picture of this place, not to try to confirm some narrative that serves your experience

so that you can just feel comfortable continuing with the program. If you do that, I'm very confident that you're going to stay safe. It's interesting. I read through this group's website, and it says that its mission is to, quote, create world peace by empowering individuals to find peace within themselves, unquote. Which, you know, little vague, but I get it. Change starts with us. Fair enough.

It also says that, quote, the modern mystery school is in service to all of humanity to assist in the ascension of the human consciousness on this planet, unquote. And that, here's another quote, the purpose of the school is to help people achieve their highest spiritual potential in this physical life. I mean, Scientology says something very similar. But then you get sucked into it, and before you know it, it's e-meters and aliens, and give us your paycheck, or we'll tell everyone you know that you compulsively masturbate. Right.

Again, it's all about how the group functions and who's leading it, right? What they want? Just leaving out there, huh? But then there's this bit where it says that the school gives people, quote, the tools and teachings they need in order to empower themselves and realize that they are their own greatest teacher, so that they may remember who they truly are, unquote, which I got to say, I'm all four. Sure.

And those are good values to hold. So I would keep an eye on that. And if anything you find in this group ever contradicts that mission, like if you find that the leaders are keeping you on the tap or starting to charge you more and more for classes, or they start telling you that the only source of wisdom is this curriculum and you need this school, that's when I would speak up and reconsider your involvement. Exactly. That makes sense.

That's an ongoing process. But look, I appreciate your mindset, man. I admire your curiosity, your objectivity, and I know those qualities, which I hope this school supports, I know those are going to serve you very well. And if you're in this thing for another couple years and you don't get invited to any orgies at all, it might be time to find another cult because this one is way less fun than it could be. So many better ones out there. You guys could be getting crazy.

That's right. You know who puts on a great orgy, Gabriel? Oh, I think I know. The amazing sponsors that support this show. That's what I was going to say. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here. All the links, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all clickable and searchable at

Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hey guys. My husband and I live in North Carolina, and we've been in a poly-slash-open relationship the entire time we've been together since 2008, so 16 years. The biggest rule of our ethical poly situation was that we place each other above and before anyone else we may have in our lives as a secondary partner. Yeah, that makes sense. That's the same rule Jordan and I have. Yeah, that's right. I place Gabe above and before my skeptical Sunday partners, but, you know, we're free to play. We're poly podcasters. Polycasters? Yeah, sure. I guess. So she goes on, this was never really an issue until he met the woman he's been dating for a few years now.

Oh, yeah. Tell as old as time. Song as old as rhyme. Sharing your husband. It's so weird when you sing on the show because I forget that you have a good singing voice. Oh, good? Okay, that's where we're going with that. That's where I'm going with it.

I can't carry a tune to save my life, so I'm into it. Yeah, uh, polybrobs. Let's carry on. Let's. We were friends at first, and I was okay with them seeing each other casually. Then, slowly, she started to encroach more and more. overstepping boundaries and actively trying to monopolize his time, planting negative thoughts about me in his mind and ruining our one-on-one time together whenever possible to drive a wedge between us.

I spoke to both of them when she first started doing things like that and made it clear that I was no longer comfortable with the relationship. I told them that if it continued, I would consider it cheating and no longer within the bounds of ethical polyamory. She manipulated him into continuing the relationship, convincing him that I was just, quote unquote, jealous for no reason. He then allowed her to move into our home against my consent when she claimed she was no longer able to afford another place to live. She lived with us for two and a half years, using her children as leverage for sympathy to be allowed to stay

any time the subject of her moving out came up. She finally moved out two months ago and now texts and calls and tries to get my husband to be at her place whenever possible. I still have love for him, still want to be with him, and would try to mend our relationship if we can. But that won't happen as long as she's in his life, poisoning him against me. He says he still loves me,

but his actions don't match his words and I don't know what to do. Would we have to legally separate for me to sue her for alienation of affection? What other legal options are available to me to make her stop contacting him and get out of our lives so that there might be hope of us being happy together again? Or are we past hope for that? And I'm just in denial. Signed, feeling wary, and looking for a hailman. Mary to dispense with this troublesome secondary. Oh, boy. Well, I'm very sorry this is happening to you.

I can hear how painful all of this is from your letter, even though Polly and open relationships kind of do invite this kind of possibility. We've heard versions of this story many times over the years. I do understand why this is hurtful, obviously. So for anybody who doesn't know, alienation of affection, that's a legal action that a spouse can bring against a third party who's accused of interfering in their marriage, leading to the loss of affection or love between the I believe that there are only six states in the U.S. that recognize this cause of action. North Carolina is one of them, and it's kind of an outdated and obscure tort. That's why it sounds like an outdated and obscure tort.

And honestly, I'm always surprised that it's still on the books. But to be successful in a case like this, you really need to prove a few key elements. First, that genuine love and affection existed between you and your husband in your marriage. You need to prove a clear timeline to the whole relationship. And you do that with things like photos, love letters, social media posts, whatever, stuff like that. you got to prove that this love and affection was destroyed or alienated. And the way you prove that is by showing that you're legally separated or divorced or that you and your husband are sleeping in separate bedrooms, which that kind of thing.

I think that one's funny because Jen and I sleep in separate bedrooms. But before anyone says anything, no, it's not because of Gabe. No, it's because Jen sleeps with Juniper, our daughter. I know, that just got so weird. I just totally never going to live that down. This is suing Gabe for alienated. There's no affection. Yeah.

Jen sleeps with Juniper, who's our daughter. I sleep with Jaden. There's no bed that's big enough for four of us. At least not that we already have. I'm not going to buy a new bed. This bed ain't big enough for the four of us. That's right. Thank you for that.

Yes, that's how this happened. The last thing you got to prove is that the defendant's malicious conduct contributed to or caused the alienation. Again, similar documentation could back up this claim. Maybe you prove the timeline of this woman moving in with you guys, letters she wrote your husband, turning him against you, even financial records showing how his spending increased when they met, if you can prove those elements, you might be awarded damages,

but it's unclear how many people succeed with this tort in this day and age. It all depends on the evidence you can present the unique circumstances of your marriage, etc. But you have to consider the cost-benefit analysis here. These lawsuits, they can be a long and expensive road as lawsuits usually are. They tend to be highly contentious, again, as lawsuits often are, very emotionally charged, because they require sharing a lot of sensitive person, information. You've got to error your dirty laundry in public and then you're forcing someone else to do

the same. So to answer your question, alienation of affection suits, they're typically filed after a divorce. But they can be brought in any situation where a third party causes a marriage to fall apart. But then we also read that separating from your spouse can affect the statute of limitations in cases like this. For an alienation of affection claim to work, you have to prove that the third party directly damaged your marriage. If you're already separated, the court might believe. there was already damage within the marriage, just one more reason that the timeline is so important, you'd need to be able to show that this woman's meddling damaged your marriage before you got separated. Also, another interesting thing we found, people in open or polymarriages often have a

difficult time filing for alienation of affection because these relationships inherently invite the risk of meeting somebody new. So if your spouse falls in love with a third party, especially if you consented to that relationship at first, which you did, that might not meet the standards for alienation of affection. The court might just look at that and be like, well, her partner is changing. He decided he wanted something different from life. That's not what alienation of affection is. Yeah, so interesting. And so no, as far as I know, there aren't any other legal options available to make this woman stop contacting your husband and get out of your lives. As long as she isn't breaking any laws, harassing you, threatening you, stuff like that.

If she were, that'd be a different story. But that still wouldn't stop your husband from freely choosing to see her. That said, just the threat of this lawsuit, it might be enough to scare this woman away. She probably doesn't have a lot of money. She's raising two kids. You know, who wants to get into that. So if that's your goal, it could be effective, could also blow up in your face. That's a fair point. I don't know if this woman's going to give up, though. She sounds tenacious. But here's the other thing. A lawsuit is not going to make you feel better or fix the real issue, which is whether you and your husband still have a functioning marriage, whether you guys still want the same things. I think you're very hurt and you're very angry right now and I get it and you're looking for anything that would

make you feel better and an alienation of affection case probably seems like an easy answer. And I understand your husband's involvement with this other woman is very painful and she does sound like, I mean, I don't know. We're not hearing her side of the story, but she sounds difficult. She sounds tricky. She sounds like what we're hearing, right? So we only have your story to go on here. I would be so, Jordan, I'm so curious to know how this other woman views the relationship. I'm sure we would hear a different version of events from her. But based on these facts, she does sound very demanding and influential and difficult. But still, Jordan, I do not fully buy our friend here's narrative that she's entirely the victim in this situation. What is your take on that? Well, for one thing,

okay, she agreed to be in a poly slash open relationship. So yes, they had this very clear rule about who comes first. They agreed to that, and that is legit. But her husband obviously is not playing by that rule or his feelings have changed over time. And that is one risk of a non-traditional relationship. All right, fair enough. I guess it's all fun in games and nice ideas until somebody matches with a batty on the field app or someone who crawls in their ear, I guess, and turns them against their spouse. Like, that seems like what's happening here. It's like, oh, this is all fun. And then this woman's like, oh, gosh, this guy is stable and I like him. Let me knock out this other gal. I don't want to be Polly. I want them for myself. Yeah, but here's the thing. The other reason I think she bears some responsibility here is that, what was this thing she said? When this woman first started encroaching and turning her husband against her, she made it clear that she was not comfortable with their relationship, right? She said that if they continued, she would consider a cheating and no longer within the bounds of ethical polyamory, as they defined it.

And then it sounds like she gave him that ultimatum, but didn't really enforce it. Yeah, those seem to have been just words she put up with it. I'm also, I'm like, she moved in. I would have been like, I'm leaving. You know, that's where the line should have got drawn. That was another huge inflection point when this woman moved in. Yeah. And our friend here said he allowed her to move into our home against

my consent when she claimed she was no longer able to afford another place to live. But what does that mean against my consent? If she didn't want this woman living with them, to your point, she could have left right then and there. I'm not saying it would have been easy, but it was an option. Also, what does it mean moved in against my consent? I just have to understand, like, if she was out of town and then she comes home and he has moved her into the garage, maybe I could understand he moved her in against my consent. But if you were there and you could have said, no, this isn't the kind of life I want to be leading, that's a different story. So in two crucial moments, she had the opportunity to say, this is not right, this is not what we agreed to. I wish you would stop seeing this person. And if you

won't, then I have to honor my values and my commitment and leave this marriage. But she didn't do that. And I'm sure she had some very good reasons for that. Like she said, she still loves him. She still wants to be with him. She's willing to mend their relationship. So again, I really do understand that this is painful and it's complicated. She doesn't want to lose her husband. I get it. But she had a red line and she didn't enforce it. I think that's what she needs to take accountability for. Okay, I hear you. Those are good points. And I think that's a, frankly, a much better use of her time and energy than suing this woman for alienation of affection. I agree. In fact, pursuing that option, that might kind of be another way of not having to look at how she

participated in all this. I mean, I get the impulse. Don't get me wrong. But I also think it's kind of like, this would then prove that I'm correct, you know? The judge agrees with me. The story is also not as simple as this woman manipulated my husband into continuing the relationship. I mean, she might be manipulating him, like with the kids thing, does sound kind of manipulative. But it also sounds to me like her husband is fairly eager to continue being with this woman and helping her out. So how much is he being manipulated and how much does he just want to do what she wants? Or he's playing along with her manipulation and not putting his foot down, so he's not blameless either. I feel like the more accurate story is probably my husband met another woman in our open relationship.

He kind of caught feelings. She dominates his time and attention. is turning him against me, but she also is forcing me to confront whether my husband and I still have the same feelings for each other, whether we are committed to the same rules, and I didn't always stand by my principles. That's the story that I'm hearing. Yeah, right. Okay, but if that version of events is true, then this woman isn't quite the easy villain she's painted her as, even though she does sound objectively problematic. I mean, I would also be very unhappy with her in this particular situation. All that said, though, I'm mostly on our friend's side here. Okay, just to be clear. I think you are too because she is the most obvious victim here, but now we're back to that old

feedback Friday chestnut, how you can be a victim and still bear some responsibility. Right. And the main responsibility our friend here bears is enforcing her boundaries and values when they were violated and coming to terms with the reality of her marriage now. So I don't know if you and your husband are past hope. That's something only you guys can figure out through a lot of conversation, ideally couples therapy. And yeah, you might be a little in denial, but less about the state of your marriage and more about how you've participated in this situation and partly enabled it by not consistently prioritizing your needs or enforcing your rules. That's where I'd start. And hey, I'm sending you a big hug. I'm wishing you all the best. This is obviously a painful situation and, you know, at the end of the day,

I feel for you. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines that makes our job a whole lot easier. If your psychiatrist hit on you, a psychotic person is renting a room in your house and refuses to leave, or your husband won't protect you from his creepy harassing brother. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 23-year-old woman from Denmark living in Germany, and my little sister is very sick. She has had bad and incurable epilepsy, resulting in her being years behind, both mentally and physically. She'll be turning 18 this summer, but mentally she's around 13.

Oh man, I'm super sad. I'm so sorry to hear that. At the moment, she's living with her dad half the time. Let's call him John and my mom the rest of the time. My mom and John broke up nine years ago, but their relationship never healed. I'm now worried because when my sister turns 18, she's going to get full custody over herself.

John has also forced her into a school for troubled youth to study math, even though she has discalculia. Okay, tell me what that is again? That's like basically when it's really hard. or impossible to do math, and I think it's usually because of brain trauma. So is this like dyslexia but for numbers and math? Exactly. Oh, interesting.

Okay. He did this without informing my mom, and because he's the leader of the school, my mom has had a really hard time getting in contact with any of my sister's teachers. On top of that, John didn't inform the school of my sister's epilepsy, which is not only really dangerous, but also makes it very hard for my sister to learn and make friends. Time and time again, John failed to realize that she's sick and has forbidden her from using the word handicapped about herself. So, okay, this is interesting. I can, of course, appreciate a parent

who doesn't want to infantilize his child or contribute to a victim identity. But there's definitely a line there. If he's pushing her to succeed, hey, that's commendable. He might have good intentions. But if he's failing to meet her very real needs and putting her in actual danger, like by isolating her failing to tell the school that she gets seizures, that is obviously very concerning. And it goes beyond denial or like motivational mindset stuff. That's right. I mean, he could do both of those things. He could take care of her and he could push her if he wanted to. But it doesn't sound like he's doing that. So she goes on, my sister doesn't have a lot of friends and spends most of her time alone, which has made her really vulnerable. Over the years, she's had a lot of stalkers online. She has a really

hard time understanding emotions, both her own and others and refuses to talk about them. Oh, man, Jordan, this just reminded me. I had a friend many years ago who had a sister. with an intellectual disability. The sister since died. She died very young. And the whole family had to keep a really close eye on her because she would go into chat rooms and go on message boards

and get herself into all these weird situations with people who were effectively praying on her. There was one night where they couldn't find her and then they tracked her down to a house and a really dodgy part of town with a bunch of guys and there was like a sexual situation and it was about to be really bad and they had to physically remove her from the place.

It's really sad. That's so stressful. That's horrifying. I really feel for her and her family for having to worry about that because, my God, that's really a tough part of this situation. So the letter goes on. I don't remember much from the time I lived with my mom and John, but I have this one memory of John holding a kitchen knife to my cat's throat. What? While I was crying and pleading with him to put the cat down, he just laughed.

This only stopped when my mom came into the room. And though I don't think he would ever do anything like this to my sister, it still worries me. Yeah. Oh, okay. Very telling detail. This is the detail that confirms it for me. John is, first of all, he sounds like a psychopath, is a monster. Yeah.

Somebody who hurts an animal or even jokes about hurting an animal, there's something wrong with them. For sure. At a minimum, this speaks to a lack of empathy in this guy, and I have to think that's playing a role in how he's raising our sister. But the cliche, the trope is serial killers and psychopathic violent murderers start by hurting animals, right? And this guy wanted to hurt you by making you scream and cry, by threatening to

kill your cat with a knife in your home? So upsetting. Yeah. After the whole school thing, my mom tried to get an investigation made into it as John refuses all communication, but it's super hard to get anywhere as John still has half of the custody and resists all opportunities for my sister to talk to a therapist or professional. I'm scared that when my mom no longer has custody, John won't let my sister see me or my mom. He's already convinced my sister that she should not live with my mom. Also, my sister really loves and trusts John, which makes it hard as she will always say what he tells her to say. On the other hand, she's also said on multiple occasions that she's scared of him.

My sister means everything to me. But I live in Germany 16 hours away and have my own struggles with anxiety and depression. I've thought many times about trying to speak to John myself, but I'm scared it'll backfire, or that it'll just take me back to the trauma I've tried for so many years to work through. How do I best support my sister? We still have a great relationship, but how do I keep being there for her? Is there any way I can make sure John doesn't scare her into not seeing me and my mom again, signed securing the best outcome when my sister is under her dad's thumb?

Man, I'm so sorry that your sister has struggled in her life. Still struggles, and I'm sorry that you suffered from John's crazy too, and that you have to manage this from afar, and that's bringing up these old wounds. What a tragic story. This letter is upsetting on so many levels. We wanted to run your story by an expert, so we'd reached out to Sarah Coucher, a former child protection investigator. Sarah has many years of law enforcement

and child wellness experience and she's seen a lot in her career, as you might imagine. And by the way, I know you live in Europe where the laws and agencies are probably a lot different from ours, probably better in Scandinavia, but Sarah has a really good perspective

on these situations. And I know her advice will apply to your situation as well, at least for the most part. So the first thing Sarah said was this situation is terribly unfortunate and unfortunately, it's complicated from a child protection perspective as well.

The trickiest part she said is your sister's age. She's turning 18 very soon. She's going to be considered an adult. That said, if you have serious concerns about your sister's well-being, Sarah would still encourage you to report this to the equivalent of the Department of Children and Families or the Department of Children's Services or Child Protective Services in Denmark. Sarah told us that she would always advise people to call in a report to DCF, even if they're unsure that a case will be open just to know that they did everything they could to protect someone.

If you do make a report, Sarah said that you should be as clear and to be different. and your concerns as you possibly can. You never know what detail could cause a case to be opened. We did some very quick homework on this. It looks like child services are organized at the municipal level in Denmark so you can call a local police or child welfare agency. You might be able to call the social services administration. Now, to intervene on a child's behalf, an agency here in the states would need to prove that she's a vulnerable child and that she's in immediate danger. And that means that she's unable to protect herself or even recognize that she's in danger due to developmental or cognitive impairment. DCF would then decide which consequences to pursue based on a

preponderance of the evidence that's a legal standard. That could be removal from the home, an in-home safety plan offering services to the family, et cetera. So if they decide she's not in immediate danger, the case will be closed, but there would still be a record of the investigation, just in case something occurs in the future. But Sarah also said that it's good to be aware that DCF might not be able to get in contact with your sister or John for many reasons, even if the case is opened. John sounds like he's uncooperative. He might continue to be uncooperative. Maybe he won't answer the door. Maybe he just refuses to answer questions. He won't allow DCF to even interview your sister, which is crazy that he could do that, but apparently he can't, at least in the United States.

In that event, Sarah said that DCF keeps record of how many times they attempted contact before closing the case. I'm not sure how useful that is. Now, once your sister turns 18, she does become an adult, and that means that she's out of DCF's jurisdiction here in the States. And I'm going to go ahead and assume it's the same in Denmark. Sarah's advice, and we talk about this on the show a lot, find the equivalent of adult protective services in Denmark and make a report if you still have concerns. Same general process.

I would definitely pursue all of these options, but I think your question about how to support your sister the best is the right one. And I'm very happy and I'm super touched that you have a great relationship with her and that you want to keep being there for her. Sarah's main advice was to do exactly that because even if she doesn't admit to any type of abuse now, she might confide in you later on. Or if she doesn't realize that what she's experiencing these days is not okay, she might understand that better in a few years. As Sarah explained to us when we talk to her, victims sometimes withhold the truth because obviously they could be coached by a parent to not say anything.

They could be too afraid to speak up. So staying close to your sister, that will also allow you to observe any changes in her or just give her somebody to feel safe with, which is so important. The way I would do that is I would text with her, I would call her, email her, visit when you're in town, take her out, try to get some alone time together, anything that John cannot monitor, and ask her how she's doing, ask her how school is going, if she feels comfortable at home, if she feels safe, if she needs anything. Given her disability, she might not come right out and say, oh, school is impossible and John is endangering me, and I think I'm, you know, I'm very concerned about his personality. She might say, I had a seizure at school and nobody helped me, or John, yelled at me the other day and he scared me or sometimes I feel like I want to live with mom, you know, stuff like that. And then you can draw her out and get some details and find out if she's an imminent danger. But basically, you need to continue to be supportive. You need to reassure her that you will always be there to listen, to be her friend. I think the key here is love, empathy, safety, trust, consistency. Your sister needs to feel those things from you.

And sadly, no, I don't think there's any way you can make sure John doesn't scare your sister into not seeing you and your mom again, unless he breaks the law or your sister needs intervention. As long as she's living with him, she might always be influenced by him to some degree. But I think Sarah's advice is the best way to hedge against that possibility, because if he does isolate her or try to turn her against you guys, the strength of your relationship with her, that is going to be everything. And speaking of your mom, where is she in all this? This is her child.

Yeah, good question. This is not your child. Your mom, she married John. This does not all fall on you. sure that it should. Like what, what, barely got a mention in this letter. It's very odd to me. Although I think it's interesting that she feels like it does fall on her. And that makes me wonder if she has stepped into this parent role for her sister from a very young age, both because her sister was incredibly vulnerable and possibly because her mom might have co-opted her into

that role to some degree. Maybe she always needed help managing the daughter. Or maybe our friend here just has a hyperdeveloped sense of responsibility. I do wonder if that's one of the causes of the anxiety and the depression that she feels. And if so, that would be really important for her to explore. Agreed. I would work closely with her on monitoring your sister. She's in a better position to do that and empower her to report anything worrisome and stand up to John. They share custody. Your mom absolutely has some power here, at least until she turns 18, and she can advocate for more custody or push back against some of John's decisions. But I feel that bringing your mom into this is really important for your mental health, because as much as you should protect your

sister, you can't do that at your own expense or lose sight of yourself. The other thing, Gabriel, that just popped into my head here, John is a, let's just assume, is a just malignant psychopath or something of the sort, right? The whole knife and the kitten throat thing in the ways manipulating people. Sure. It makes me think he enjoys controlling others, right? He's controlling the sister. He's using the sister to control the mom in a way, right? Like, I'm not going to let you see your daughter. Right. The last thing that our friend here should do is jump in and be like, You can use the situation to control me too. I'm going to speak to you directly, and now you have leverage over me, and I know, now you know

what I want, which is my sister, and now you're going to use my sister against both mom and me. Like, John should be like, yeah, I never talked to her. I don't know anything. The less he knows about you, the better, because he's deliberately doing this. Fair point. He should have absolutely no contact with you. That's my opinion. Again, I'm so sorry this is happening to your sister.

She's very lucky to have you looking out for her. and this is just a really tough situation. There might be only so much you can and should do here. But I would, of course, do everything in your power to keep a close eye on the situation while staying out of sight as much as you can, at least out of John's crosshairs, sending you and your half-sister a huge hug.

And big thanks to Sarah Coocher for her wisdom and experience here. You know, who definitely doesn't murder kittens, Gabriel? The sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do

what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors that we have here on the show. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support this show are at Jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also email me. I'm Jordan atjurbaner.com. I'll happily dig up any code for you,

tell you what kind of sponsors we got going if you're about to buy something big or small. Thank you for supporting those who support us. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I was adopted at birth in a closed adoption, which meant that I wasn't able to contact my birth parents.

My birth mom was 19 when I was born. She wanted me to have better opportunities than what she could offer and she didn't want me to feel confused about who my parents were. My parents have always been open about this and extremely supportive and understanding, but throughout middle school, I felt disconnected because my past was a mystery. My parents would stay up late with me talking

and try to answer my questions, though their knowledge was limited. They were everything I could have asked for, and I wouldn't trade them for anything. When I was 15, my mom found my bio-mom on Facebook and asked if she would be interested in meeting up. To their surprise, she agreed. And a few months later, we drove south about an hour to meet her. I finally got to ask my questions about where I came from, her side of the family, her current family, and her

situation 15 years ago. She told me my birth dad's first name, told me I looked like him, offered to find me some pictures, and was honest about their situation. He was 10 years older than she was. It was a short-lived relationship. and she said he wasn't good to her, which is why she asked us not to reach out to him until I turned 18. A few years later, I turned 18, and I had a conversation with my parents about finding my biodad. We reached out to my birth mom a few times about how to contact him,

but every time she would disappear on us, and we eventually figured it was a dead end. We looked into going through the adoption agency, but we assumed they don't have any information because my birth mom told the agency that he was out of state so that he couldn't stop the adoption from taking place. The agency told us the queue was long, that it would take at least nine to 12 months to even begin the process, and that they would also charge us over $9,000 just to start, with no guarantee of results. So my mom tried social media again, but we aren't sure where he is and we aren't even sure whether my birth mom gave us the correct name, age, or location. I'm now 20. I'm still full of questions, and I want to find my bio-dad, but a few things make me

hesitate? What if he has or had a family? What if he was married when he got my biomom pregnant and the reason she won't give us any information is that it was an affair from a small town? For all I know, he doesn't know I exist and I don't want him to feel like I'm reaching out to build a father-daughter relationship. Also, I'm happy with my parents and I'm not looking to replace them or add a father figure to my life. Do I owe it to anyone to avoid the situation and dodge a potentially dicey confrontation? How do I begin the process of hunting him down without breaking the bank as a young adult. Is there a cheaper option here?

Would a DNA test give us any information? Is there a way to get more information from my biomom legally? Signed, looking for the chops, to track down my pops when I'm getting blocked. Huh. Well, first of all, it's a really beautiful adoption story. It is. Your birth mom, she knew she couldn't give you the opportunities you deserved. You ended up with these incredible adoptive parents.

That's incredibly touching. I love how they made and continue to make space for all of your questions. how they've supported you in so many ways. It just, it's very heartwarming. Y'all are a really lucky family. Gabe, I'm dying to know why Biomomom is being so cagey. Same. So she's obviously hiding something.

Clearly. You know, the gross part of this is like, maybe it's her dad or cousin or uncle who's like the father. And so she's like, no DNA test. Oh, interesting. You think it's something like that. Yeah. But it could also just be like, I don't want people to know that it was my teacher or the

principal at the school. or, you know, who knows, she was young. Oh, wow. I guess it's possible. I mean, yeah, if she's not telling them anything, anything is possible. I thought it was just like a guy and she didn't want to disrupt his life or bring back old wounds, but she did say their relationship wasn't good, which could be code for anything. Yeah. It's not like, oh, well, I didn't get his permission for that.

It's like, oh, he was abusive. And also, there's a lot of stuff wrong with it and people are going to judge me based on that. So I'd rather you just never know who this person is. Right. Anyway, we wanted to get an expert's opinion here. So we reached out to Colleen Riddle, Child Welfare Specialist. Adoption expert, an independent contractor for Heartland for Children, a lead child welfare agency in Florida.

And Colleen was moved by your story, too. To quote her here, it's so great to hear of an adoption in which the adoptive parents were transparent about the adoption and supportive of the adoptee in locating their birth parents. It sounds like this listener truly has a great family. Amen. Yes. So the first thing Colleen wanted to do was give you some background so that you can make

the most informed decision here. So first of all, anytime an adoption takes place, the birth parents' rights must be terminated. So this can happen through a voluntary process or an involuntary process. In the case of a private infant adoption, it's usually a voluntary termination of parental rights. And that happens through a process of surrendering. In most states, if the adoption is planned for birth, the birth parents have between 24 and 48 hours to sign the surrender documents. Wow, that's so fast. Isn't that it's crazy fast? After that, the infant can be placed in the custody of the identified adopted family. What's less commonly known is that there's always a 30-day appeal period for both voluntary

and involuntary termination of parental rights, so adoptions can only really be finalized after the window for appeal has closed. This process is required for both the birth mother and for a known birth father. And just like in a non-adoptive birth, a birth mother doesn't have to list a father. If she doesn't or she reports the father is unknown, then the father is not involved in the surrendering process. And if the mother never reports the biological father prior to the adopt, process, then the adoption agency who would be researching the situation just wouldn't have his name or any information about him, really, in any records at all, which means that they would not be able to identify him. So sadly, there isn't a way to get more information from your biomomom legally,

especially since this was a closed adoption. At most, Colleen said you could petition the courts to have the information unsealed, but if your biomather didn't list your biological father on the birth certificate like we were just talking about, then unsealing the records is not really going to be helpful to you and your search at all. So the next step that you could take would be a putative father registry search. The putative father registry was created for fathers who are not listed on birth certificates, but know that they're the father of the child and are looking to claim paternity in a time frame that matches the child for whom the search is being completed. So this would be an option if your birth father knew about you and was also looking for you, but it's not going to be

successful if he's unaware that you exist, which based on what you shared, he might not. Colleen also wanted you to know that most, if not all states, allow people to complete a direct search through their Department of Health or Department of Human Resources website. So you don't need an organization to search on your behalf. Apparently in Florida, it's like nine bucks to submit a search. That is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying that organization $9,000 to do it for you, a thousand times more expensive. That's insane. So go Google putative father registry in your state. We're also going to link to a full list of those in the show notes for you and complete the form, for an inquiry. Another option is to search adoption reunion registries. Many states, not all states,

they require that a child's birth information be listed on an adoption reunion registry. That way, if they choose to search for a parent and the parent is also searching for the child, the reunion registry will match them. Again, Colleen wanted to make it really clear that you can search the reunion registry on your own. So the question obviously becomes, does your biological father know about you? And if so, would he be searching for you as well? If he does not know that you exist, and he isn't searching for you, which again, sounds like this is the case, then Colleen said that it'll take an extra layer of detection to find him. In that case, she said a DNA test from 23 and Me or Ancestry.com might be a better place to start.

Colleen said that it's possible, although unlikely, that a DNA test would provide a direct link to an individual's father, but it might provide other useful information. For example, cousins you didn't know about, other more distant relatives, you can then look for those people on social media and then search their connections and see if there's anyone matching the name and age range of your biological father. You have his name, although you did say you're not sure if it's his real name. You also have some photos, which, I mean, I assume those might be real. So I'd imagine he'd be fairly easy to spot if he's on social and he's searchable.

Man, I would upload those photos to Google photo search and you see if they crop up. You'll find out if they're fake if your dad shows up in like a back issue of GQ in a watch ad and it's the same photo. Then you'll know that your biomom just grabbed those and there's more to this. You could dig so deep into this stuff, man. All of this is a time-intensive process, of course, but hey, it might be worth it. Colleen's family has actually used 23 and me and found it to be user-friendly and beneficial because it can also provide insights into likely family medical histories, stuff like that.

But look, always got to call this out when we mention these genetic testing services. Do your homework on the privacy aspect. The data these services can kick up. There are definitely risks and downsides, but everybody's threshold for privacy and surprises is different. So another option, Colleen mentioned, you could hire a private investigator. A PI is probably going to use all the resources listed above, but they will be more skilled. Also, PIs sometimes have access to face matching software. So basically, they could upload these photos of your birth dad, and it would search every

index photo across the internet to find a match, even if it's not the same photo, just like him in other photos and places. That might be your best bet. That way you don't need to know his name, none of that stuff. That was episode 948 with Kashmir Hill, where she talked about that. Now, this is an expense. PIs are generally paid per hour rather than at job completion, so this route can be costly. And again, this face-matching stuff, it's kind of like only cops are supposed to have it and it's supposed to be authorized. So you kind of need somebody who's like, yeah, I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway. Anyway, it's probably still going to cost less than $9,000 or whatever the upfront cost, the agency quoted you. All great options. But, you know, before you embark on this journey, Colleen would encourage you to consider just a couple of things. First, she would invite you to get clear about how much time and money you want to invest in. this process. Like Jordan said, this can really take over your whole life. As you know, it can be

costly, it can be all-consuming, you can start to get obsessive about it. So just know how much time you want to devote to this before you go in. And second, she would encourage you to think about how you would respond if you did manage to identify family members, but they weren't receptive to acknowledging you or they didn't want to engage with you. Now, how is that going to make you feel? How are you going to cope with that, just be prepared. In Colleen's view, if you've set some boundaries for yourself around how much time and energy you're going to put into the search, if you go into this recognizing the limitations of the search itself and knowing you might not get the answers you're hoping for, then this whole search will be way more manageable. Totally. And I have to imagine

there's a ton of literature and support groups online for people in your shoes. That might be great community and support for you right now. So no, Colleen does not feel you owe it to anyone to avoid the situation and dodge a potentially dicey confrontation, and frankly, neither do why. As long as you're prepared for the responses you get back, you are entitled to search for your biological connections. You're not responsible for their past or even their future decisions. Your curiosity is natural. You're entitled to answers. I really hope you find them. Good luck. Okay. Next step. So our last question on today's episode is an update on a previous segment. You guys probably heard the two letters we aired from our boy, Pete Donella, really sweet listener.

he was going through cancer treatment and he shared this incredibly heartfelt note with us about listening to our show while he was in his chemo sessions and how it got him through a really difficult time. And as you guys know, because you listen to the show, he recently told us that he decided to stop treatment because the treatment was worse than the disease and he was just going to go through the rest of his life. And so we have an update on his story. Hi guys. This is Pete's wife, Barbara. I'm sorry to have to tell you that Pete passed away peacefully in his sleep Wednesday night. That was a few days before she wrote us. His time here with us was much too short. We did listen to the show last Friday, and he was so happy that he was able to. He was an amazing

husband, father, and friend to those who knew him, and we were all heartbroken that he's gone. We were together for 27 years and married for 26 of them. We were true soulmates, and he was definitely the love of my life. It will be very difficult moving forward without him, but I promised him I would do my best until we can be together again someday. I know he will be watching over us all, and that brings me a lot of comfort. I want to thank you for helping make his journey a little bit better. He truly enjoyed your shows as they helped to distract him from the nightmare he was going through. He was thrilled that you were putting a story on your show and had a big smile on his face

after listening to it. It brought tears to my eyes to see him smile like that. It had been a while since I'd seen him happy. I truly appreciate what you did for him and can't thank you enough. It's the little things in life that really matter. Never forget that. God bless you both, and I wish you much happiness and success in the future. I will be listening to your shows, so while you may have lost a follower, you gained another in me. Pete and I thank you

again for everything. Much love, Barbara. Oh, man, I really feel like only you could read letters like this. I'm not good at that stuff, man. I can't get through stuff like that. This is obviously a very emotional letter. It's a very touching letter, so thanks for reading that, Gabe. And I want to thank you as well, Barbara, for taking the time to update us in the middle of your grief. We're so very sorry that you had to say goodbye to Pete. I cannot even imagine what it's like to lose a spouse, especially one who's the love of your life. It must be incredibly painful.

It's so strange. It's so intense. And it's very sweet that you took the time to write two strangers who just sort of entered your life very recently via email and podcasts. Obviously, we were very fond of Pete. We felt an instant love for him after he first shared his story. And now we feel that for you too. And we are so sorry that you are going through this and we're just sending you a huge hug.

You know, it's interesting. Gabe and I were actually worried that Pete wouldn't stick around long enough to hear his letter by the time we scheduled it. And Gabe, I think you even sent me a message like, hey, man, this comes out in a couple weeks, but should we move it up? And should we go back and re-edit a previously recorded episode

and just get this out as soon as possible because we didn't want him to miss it. And we almost did, but we're like, oh, it's just one more week. I think Pete will make it. And I'm very glad that he did. Yes. You know, we all got super lucky.

If we'd missed him, I would have been super bummed out by that and would have beat myself up about that for a long time. But this reaction you described Barbara, Pete's smile after hearing the episode, just means the world to me, that we could be a part of his last few days and give him some joy is just, again, like I said on that first episode, indescribable.

But what this whole story is making me appreciate, I feel like I keep learning this lesson over and over is, don't wait. You know, if you want to tell somebody what they mean to you, tell them. You want to send an email to somebody you appreciate or admire, send it. You want to shoot your shot with an employer, a date, a friend, a hero, man, shoot that shot,

do not wait. The idea that we might have missed this beautiful moment with Pete because of our production schedule, it just really makes me appreciate the importance of doing things now. I know that's not super original, but it's true. And I just want to pause and appreciate that because, again, it's one of the gifts that Pete and now Barbara are bringing to life for us here. So, in fact, this is exactly what Seth Godin was getting at in that post. time is limited, nothing is guaranteed, so don't rush, but hurry.

Man, so true, yeah. It's funny, sometimes general by the kid's stuff that I would not buy them, that's, to say the least. And I give her this look, and she'll say something like, hey, none of us know how much time we'll have together. So I got the bouncy house with the water slide on it, right? And it's like, I got to acknowledge that she's right, although I still might not have bought the 10th box of plastic crap

that's now spread over the floor of the living room. But, you know, she's right on one big level. Anyway, after we aired Pete's letters a few weeks ago, so many of you guys reached out to us saying how moved you were, how y'all were crying about our homeboy Pete in the car or on the train or whatever. So obviously we had to share this update with you. And I know it was a little crass of me to make that joke about how we can't afford to lose listeners, although obviously you guys know I was kidding. But in all seriousness, I am very happy to welcome you, Barbara, into our show family.

We are honored to have you as a listener. Thank you for sharing so much of your life with us. And I promise you that Pete will always be on our minds as we do the show. he's always going to be on your mind and that he'll live on in so many ways. Just one of the very many special people in our community, a real gem, a wonderful human being, and very much the reason that we do this show. So sending you so much love, Barbara. And on that note, the Dinella family set up a GoFundMe when Pete was going through cancer. The cause of his treatment were exorbitant. And I mean, he is under the American health care system. Things were very difficult for Pete and Barbara.

Apparently, they still are. That GoFundMe, by the way, is still live. Barbara did not ask us to plug the GoFundMe. It's just the kind of person she is. We're doing it anyway, because because we know how overwhelming it is to deal with sickness and loss and financial challenges at the same time. So if you feel moved to donate, it doesn't have to be a huge amount. Tiny donations from a lot of people can make a huge impact. We're sure it would mean a lot to Barbara and her daughter. I know they could really use the help. We're going to link to the GoFundMe and the show notes. It's very easy. It'll take two minutes of your time. I'm sure the family would be incredibly grateful for your support and thank you for that. We're sending you so much

love, Barbara. This episode is dedicated to you and the one and only Pete Donella. Hope everybody enjoyed the show today. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much for that. Go back and check out David Faganbaum, Dr. David Faganbaum, and Dr. Romney-Dervasula, if you haven't done so yet, both fascinating guests, amazing folks this week. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know like and trust, and I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. Of course is free. It's not gross. It's not shmoozy. You can find it on the thinkific platform at six minute networking.com.

These drills, they take just a few minutes a day. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty kids. Actually, not just kids. A lot of older people are like, I don't need this. I'm old now. You need it. Don't rush, but hurry.

You can find it all at six minute networking.com. No weird upsells or surprises. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, I think last I checked, we'd only mention this once or twice. There's like 700 and some members in there now. Awesome. If there was an episode you liked, an episode you did not like, or you want to share some

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You can sign up at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts are on the website. Advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. LinkedIn, though, that's where the sane people are, also on that subreddit. You can find Gabe on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi, Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, they're our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto for Colleen Riddle and Sarah Coocher. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. Wondering if that overly self-centered person is a legit narcissist or just in a bad mood, dive into our chat with Dr. Romney Dervasula, who wrote, don't you know who I am? As we unpack whether there's really more narcissism around these days

or if it's just more in our face. I always say if emotional abuse showed up as scars, we'd be calling 911 constantly, because the wounds that folks carry from these relationships that are unseen because they're not physical are profound. If someone is screaming at you on a regular basis, manipulating you, gaslighting you saying, I could put you out any time you want, you're nothing.

And it can often be also coupled with physical or sexual abuse or other forms of abuse. that long-term exposure to trauma is something called complex trauma. And complex trauma was often unrecognized. We often use traumas that one episode person was in combat or was assaulted. The international classification of diseases has actually now adopted complex post-trauma and recognized that the DSM has not yet. Most people don't know what narcissism is.

A lot of people say, oh, relationships are just hard, oh, that's just how they are. Oh, they had a bad dad, or whatever excuse they come up with, a doctor's not recognized. It's not recognizing it. Law enforcement's not recognizing it. It's not against the law. This person feels like I'm being dramatic. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a relationship. But all the while, they're getting more and more confused, more and more and more isolated, more and more and more helpless. Nothing they do works in the relationship. And they blame themselves. The people are being emotionally abused. It often can last for many, many, many, many, many more years. That accumulation of the physical effects on people, like literally the physical effects are absolutely astronomical and the mental health effects. are profound as well. Get the lowdown on dealing with narcissists without losing your cool and find out if they ever really can change their ways on episode 742 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast? If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you

stop mid-dishwashing and go, wait, what that actually happened? You got to subscribe to, what was that like? It's real people telling the most surreal moments of their lives, and they're not just giving you the highlights. They're walking you through it from the inside as a person who actually lived it, which means you're basically getting a front row seat to the chaos. One episode is about Scott getting locked up in a foreign jail for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, Scott.

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Every story is verified. Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever app you're using right now. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for

here, just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts.

Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank you. Thank me later.