The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1030: Exorcism | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: August 11, 2024

If you're possessed by curiosity about the efficacy of exorcisms to eradicate evils or illnesses, Andrew Gold compels you to enjoy this Skeptical Sunday! Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by On the Edge host Andrew Gold! On This Week's Skeptical Sunday: Exorcism gained widespread popularity after the release of the movie The Exorcist in 1973, which dramatically influenced beliefs about demonic possession and exorcism practices worldwide. While exorcism is not scientifically valid, it can sometimes provide temporary relief through placebo effects, adrenaline rushes, and psychological catharsis. However, these effects are typically short-lived and do not address underlying mental health issues. Exorcism practices can be dangerous, with some cases resulting in injury or death, particularly when performed on vulnerable individuals or used as a substitute for proper medical and psychological care. The Catholic Church and other religious institutions have embraced exorcism to varying degrees, with some offering training courses and appointing official exorcists, despite the lack of scientific evidence supporting its efficacy. To protect yourself and others from potential harm, it's important to educate yourself about mental health, recognize the signs of psychological distress, and seek professional medical and psychological help when needed. By understanding the underlying causes of behavioral issues, we can promote more effective and scientifically backed approaches to healing and personal growth. Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know! Connect with Andrew Gold on Twitter and Instagram, and check out On the Edge with Andrew Gold here or wherever you enjoy listening to fine podcasts! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1030 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, my friend Andrew Gold. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed to more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays, though, we do skeptical Sunday where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions.

Topics such as why tipping makes no sense, why the Olympics are kind of a sham, e-commerce scams, chemtrails, hypnosis, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime, and cults, and more to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show, just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today we got a little bit of a ghoulish episode of Skeptical Sunday. The movie, The Exorcist Believer,

came out recently, and I might as well use my cold voice, right? Believer. Came out recently, and it got me thinking, where did this whole exorcism thing start? Is it even a real thing? Is it just a movie? And dare I ask, does it actually work? And is it dangerous? With me today is the host of the heretics podcast formerly known as On the Edge with Andrew Gold podcast, Andrew Gold, obviously. Andrew has actually helped perform an exorcism while investigating an exorcist for the BBC. So who better to cast a skeptical eye over the validity of exorcism than a man who is dueled with the devil or, you know, a person writhing around on the floor pretending to be possessed by the devil. Anyway, Andrew, let's start with the question at the crux of this. Is exorcism real, whatever that means?

It's interesting that the film made you think of exorcism because I believe there's potentially no greater example in history of a movie having such a dramatic effect on belief across societies around the world. Often with movies we see the opposites, right? So something big happens and films reflect that in various ways for the next decade. So the Vietnam War happens and then you get all these war movies. 9-11 happens and you get not just movies about terrorism, but alien invasions like War of the Worlds or Cloverfield,

which is about aliens and has this found. footage aesthetic that reflects a lot of the recordings of the tragic events of September 11th. But every now and then a movie has such a huge cultural impact that it shifts our beliefs, our fears, and the whole cultural zeitgeist. And we almost can't remember how we felt before that movie. So one example of that is Jaws, which led to widespread fear of sharks and made us think that sharks are psychopathic murderers. In fact, scientists believe that the 1975 Spielberg classic, actually caused a generation of people to develop gallophobia, a phobia of sharks. They call this rather unoriginally the Jaws effect.

The Matrix completely changed how the average Joe talked about philosophy. I remember that movie coming out and it's suddenly becoming totally normal to wonder whether we were in a simulation. And I think the Exorcist was even more powerful than Jaws and The Matrix because it managed to trick us into forgetting that it was the movie itself that made us aware of exorcism. Wait, so are you saying exorcists weren't around before the movie? Well, not exactly. The belief that some sort of spirit inhabits our bodies has long existed as a way to explain the unexplainable.

Things like OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or schizophrenia, are easier to explain a way as possession or evil spirits. In ancient Mesopotamia, in the first millennium BC, they practiced a kind of magic called Ashipu to stave off demons and illnesses. The ancient Greeks tried to expel evil demons. A historian called Josephus in the first century AD recounts the story of a Jew called Elazar who freed others by drawing demons out through their nostrils while recounting the name King Solomon. Wow, that sounds really tedious. Unless demons are small enough to fit through your nostril. These all sound like exorcisms except in name. It's basically like a pre-pagan

or pagan practice that they were like, hey, we should probably do something like this because people still need it. So when did the Christian concept of exorcism that we all know so well today start to take place? You know, when did priests start slamming iron crosses and over people's faces and being like, I command you to leave the body of this young lady, command you in the name of Christ? You know, when did that all kick off? That's really interesting, actually. So in the first few centuries after Christ, Christianity was fighting off various pagan beliefs and religious persecution. So exorcism became a way of strengthening the beliefs and feelings in Christianity. And it was primarily used to expel rival pagan beliefs.

This is when it became necessary to renounce all pagan beliefs to become Christian. So they were linking paganism to evil spirits. Nobody wants to be evil. And so they stuck it out with Christianity, which I guess then legitimizes Christianity. pose. And did the practice of exorcism grow from there, or was it kind of niche? It did start to grow. And by the 4th century AD, it was rife, but not always quite as sensational as the horror images we conjure up from the movies. It was actually a daily practice that converts and Christians had to undergo in the lead up to baptism. Even the oil that was used to

anoint Baptists had itself been exercised. And before the ceremony, prospective Baptists had their evil spirits blown off them, and that's called exsufflation. Blowing spirits off a body, no matter how hard you blow. It's not quite as dramatic as heads turning around, levitation, projectile vomiting, the green slime, right? Right. My own exorcist, which I'll get into a bit more later, it's called Padre Manuel and was based in Argentina. And in his case, the blowing ceremony took place after the theatrics. So there was about 45 minutes of a woman writhing on the floor in an apparent battle between good and evil. It was pandemonium for all of that time.

And then when she looked sort of at peace, lying on the floor, they held cloth over her eyes, which they did a lot throughout the whole thing, I think, to sort of scare her into a trance or something. And they shouted, like exuflation, or something like that, exuflation, which we translated later when reviewing the video again, when editing, because we had no idea what was going on at the time, except that they'd said a word and all started just blowing on this.

girl, which sounds weird, obviously. Yeah. But yeah, we put it in the subtitles as the blowing ceremony. This must be pre-pandemic, you know, with all the blowing on people. Well, that's relevant as we'll get onto later, but I'm sure there was some sort of spreading of diseases and things, and that might have played into the whole image of exorcism. But the exorcist and his team, as I say, they knelt over her and blew air at her.

Huh. Okay. It sounds kind of funny, but I guess at the time it's not because the person's like screaming and crying on the floor and you've definitely witnessed somebody going through it. I wonder if over the years the blowing ceremony had a weird causal effect, because if people would come to be exercised, believing they were mentally unwell possessed, then a bunch of dudes blow all over them, and some of them could have gotten sick from being blown on by strange men. So then not only do they have all these psychological demons, get your bite out of the gutter,

but they come back the next week saying they feel much worse. The demons are taking over their body even more, they perform another exorcism. And this time, the person gets over there RSV or cold or rhinovirus or whatever. And it looks like it worked or it doesn't work. And then the person dies of the illness and it just serves that as further evidence of the power of the devil, having won that one, or am I overthinking this and just pulled that out of my ars? I'm open to that interpretation as well. I like that you said ars. That's quite a British pronunciation. It's easier than saying ass and people go, if you say arse, nobody bats an eye around here. Yeah. Well, if you hit that ar hard, you sound like, because where I'm based near this sort of Bristol, southwest of England, my arse.

Like Hagrid or someone would say it in Harry Potter, that kind of piraty accent. My arse, but I would say arse. But anyway, yes, you might not be far off with that illness theory. And maybe one or two of the people who performed that blowing ceremony also died of that illness. So they would have imagined the devil or demons spreading from body to body infecting clergy and worshippers. It's this idea of a constant battle, and it isn't just blowing, of course, clergy would run around placing their hands all over the worshippers, too. Everybody's touching each other, the illness is spreading, and I think that kind of illness, especially plagues in the Middle Ages, for example, could easily be explained away as demons. Right, so I have a picture of priests running around, blowing and placing hands on people,

and it's a little silly. When did exorcism get scary? Like, when were they like, you know what, this blowing on people? not everyone's buying it. We need to slam them down and shove that cross in their face and give them the stigmata treatment. Well, it was rather tame and started to be a little peripheral to Christianity. Remember, there wasn't even initially that much talk of demons and Satan in exorcism. It was about dismissing pagan beliefs. But it was around the 13th century that St. Thomas Aquinas began studying demonology. I think it's Aquinas. Well, he can be

Aquinas if he wants to be. Fair. Okay. Continue. I don't even know what that means. St. Thomas Aquinas began studying demonology and clarifying what exorcism for Catholics was really about. And this idea of the demonic other went into hyperdrive amid the formation of Protestantism, a rival to Catholicism. But perhaps unexpectedly, interest in exorcism wanes in more recent times in the 20th century. The use of the words exorcism and exorcist plummeted in the 1950s and 60s until we see a quite sudden and dramatic spike in their usage,

first with the book, The Exorcist in 1971, and then the movie in 1973, and then it's spiraled out of control, becoming more and more common every year until today. Today the word Exorcism is the most prevalent in publications since records began in 1800. That's largely down to the impact of the book, the film, and subsequent movies. The Vatican actually reformed the writings around the right of exorcism, that's R-I-T-E of Exorcism in 1999, for the first time in nearly 400 years. Oh, wow. Perhaps in response to the film, right? They changed it to reinforce the role exorcism plays in baptism. So we've gone full circle in that sense, because that's what it was originally a big part of baptism.

They also emphasized the role of the priest because the right of exorcism didn't stipulate before that it had to be a priest that did it. So I guess after the movie, they couldn't just have random people going around performing exorcisms and charging for it. That money's not going to go to the church then, is it? So they made sure it was only trained priests. Right. Like the fake, possibly fake priest that did the one that you went to in Argentina.

I'm not sure they're familiar with how conmen work. Like, okay, I'm going to charge. for this. No, you have to be a priest. Oh, what a coincidence. I'm a priest now. The robes are coming from Amazon tomorrow. Thanks, Prime. I mean, hello. I don't think that was quite the gotcha that they thought it was reforming that in the paperwork. All right, after 400 years. Now they have 400 more years to figure out how to solve the current problem. All right, so now Exorcism is as popular as ever. They just brought out the Exorcist, Believer. In 2025, they got the Exorcist Deceiver, which I assume is going to be said the same way. That's coming out. It's great when things rhyme. And a third, the Exorcist film

from that franchise is coming out just after that. They are hard at work, milk in this one, which is just going to make this way more popular because it's going to be in the zeitgeist. What might rhyme with believer and deceiver for the third one? I can't think of anything. Receiver? No. That doesn't make sense. It has to be. It has to be receiver. Yes. That's brilliant. You should work in this. But what are they receiving? I don't know. But then what are they believing in deceiving? The devil. Yeah, that's true. They're receiving the day. Yeah, receiving the devil. Achiever. Belieber. That's true. Could be a Justin Bieber collab. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah, you never know. Depends. Maybe he could use an exorcism. Going back to what you were saying about cultural events impacting movies, it makes sense that following the COVID epidemic. We have the first three movies from that famous franchise since 2005. Do you see a COVID exorcism connection or am I leaning too hard into the blowing?

Well, no, I think it is. I think it really is. The Exorcist franchise initially comprised three exorcism. films. So in 1973, 77, and 90. Then two prequel films come out in 2004 and 2005. So again, I'd wager that's in response to that feeling of an invasion by evil forces that came about after 9-11 in 2001. Nothing about the exorcist. And then 20 years later, we have a sickness that invades our bodies and suddenly three more The Exorcist films. And does it follow then that it's not just Hollywood who profits from renewed interest in exorcism, but there's priests, real or fake, printing money with some of this stuff, especially in developing countries where people are really into it. Although I will say when I was looking at news about exorcisms, one in my town

here in Northern California popped up where a child died. But it was like a church that's in the back of a single family home, you know, is one of those. But the kid died. They basically like, yeah, they murdered the kid by mistake. It's horrible. Well, I think I'm going to be talking about that in a bit. Oh, right on. Awful, awful story. But yeah, I mean, the idea of priests and churches profiting from it is a controversial thing to say and to think and to talk about because priests and churches are not supposed to charge for an exorcism. And look, if you really do believe that evil spirits are inhabiting bodies, I mean, that's pretty shocking. Like, an evil spirit in me, wow, then you'd do that work for free to save the world, you know?

So it is a free service offered by the church. But also, it makes sense from a business perspective for the church to provide it. It reinforces the good feeling around the church, increases the bond. Exorcisms are often witnessed by the rest of the worshippers, or at least they get to hear about a big exorcism. They've heard like, hey, what happened on the weekend? There was a huge exorcism. That's even more powerful because of the strength of imagination.

And so you think, wow, this could happen to me. I need to keep going to church. As for the money, that's where it gets a little controversial and complicated. There is a sort of exit by the gift shop routine that often goes on. It's funny. Do you say that in the UK? We say exit through the gift shop. Like if you want to leave, you have to go through that store where we're selling key chains.

That's really funny. It may be through as well, yeah. Sorry, exit through the gift shop routine. And it really felt that way when I was there as well in Argentina. You know, the exercisee, the person who was exercised, that is, feels so grateful that they start donating. And in fact, it's an unwritten rule that the donation is expected. The church in Argentina, where I was at, they did have this little gift shop full of trinkets

that ward off demons. you'd buy things like rosaries or holy water, and it wasn't all related to exorcism exactly because there was this stuff like olive oil that had been blessed to prevent breast cancer. That stuff always, I guess prevent fine, treat is horrible, but then again, are they going to tell you that it treats it if you have it already? That's the thing that worries me about this stuff. So now we have a church practicing an age-old custom, as is they're right, but it's one that encourages people not only to empty their pockets for donations and religious relics, but

But also, this is where it starts to like make me angry, is then not seek medical attention if they feel a lump on their breast. Just smother it in a dollop of extortionate olive oil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the while, at least whenever I asked the question about money, the clergy just smile cultishly at me with their heads tilted to the side. And they're like, no, no, the Padre performs exorcisms for free to fight evil in the community.

I can just imagine what that looks like, too, exactly. Just, oh, no, it's free with that sort of murdery. Horror movie head tilt. Yeah. Really scary. Really scary. Yeah. The pressure to donate and buy this stuff cannot be underestimated. And the thing is, they really work on you psychologically. The feeling after being exercised is one of euphoria,

because in that moment, the person feels that they've been cured of all ills, negative feelings and demons, both physical and metaphorical. They've just gone through a crazed, shouting, dancing, writhing ritual that has left them exhausted and elated. They believe 100% in the power of the Padre, and the Padre recommends a few dollops of olive oil in the evening to keep the demons at bay or whatever it might be. Well, what do you do? Well, you spend a fortune then on olive oil.

Yeah. And that is how the business of Exorcism works. And if you think Exorcism is scary, wait till you hear of the frighteningly affordable prices from our show's sponsors. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support.

the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for sponsors using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support us. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. What about the mechanics of it? What is happening psychologically, if not actual demons, right? Well, it's amazed me since I did the Exorcism documentary for the BBC, which people can see, by the way, on YouTube by typing Andrew Gold Exorcism BBC. We'll link to that in the show notes. We can embed that in the show notes for this episode. Yeah, I don't get paid when people watch it. So, you know, you do what you want with your time. But you could watch it because it's interesting. I thought it was interesting. It's not long. It's not two hours of you going through

the thing. It's just you getting threatened in a broom closet by a priest and then an exorcism. Yeah, that was that a horrible ending where I thought he was going to kill me. Yeah. It was scary, but, yeah, it's just 40 minutes long. But it was amazing to realize afterwards how many people really do believe in demons and the paranormal. They get in touch to say nice things about the documentary and that my priest was clearly a fraud. And then they add, but if you want to see a real exorcist, here's a link to Padre such and such or priests such and father, so and so. I'd wager that even among those who listen to Skeptical Sunday, a fair proportion are believers or people open to belief in exorcism. So firstly, I just say that I respect people's right

to believe in whatever they want. But secondly, no, exorcism is not real. It is theatrical and fake. Whether priests actually know this or whether they're convincing themselves is uncertain and probably varies case by case. I think that's an important distinction because what people will say is, exorcism does seem fake, but my priest does it, and that is the nicest guy that I've ever met and he's helped me out a ton. And I'm here to say, along with you, that it doesn't mean that everybody who does this is a con man. If they really are strongly religious and they believe in this and they do it, it doesn't mean that they are doing it because they're a terrible person and they're a con artist. It could be that they just believe in it, like, for real, and they think they're doing

a service. And who knows, maybe they are. But for every priest that's doing that, there's a priest who's like, yeah, the big money is in the fake olive oil nonsense that we say cures breast cancer. So that's kind of, I think, if we're taking our knife to this one, it's going to be to the con artists and not people who have what is kind of a harmless belief, as long as they're also getting medical attention for whatever they're in there for. Yeah. It's a really appealing idea that you're in a fight for good versus evil and you're defeating all these demons. So, yeah, I can see how cognitive bias can make anyone a priest especially who's already very religious, obviously, to believe in what he is doing. And a con man will do that, especially also

if it's lining their pockets. I also get a ton of people, like I said, in my inbox that say exorcism was real, but the guy we talked about in the episode that we did so many years ago was giving all, he's given all the real priests a bad name. You would really be surprised how many people have supposedly seen this with their own eyes, and they can find somehow no other explanation at all for what they have seen other than that the person had a demon spirit inside their body that was driven out by a priest. There's an exercise in delusional thinking as much as I've ever seen. There were just people who are like, it can't be anything other than this person had a demon and the demon is gone because I watched it. It's like you've never seen anybody

physically react to something that's a psychological hue. Like you've just never seen that in your life. It's an exercise and delusional thinking as much as I've ever seen. An exorcise in delusional thinking. It's the no true Scotsman fallacy. You know, that wasn't real communism. That wasn't real exorcism. People want to believe in this stuff. And as for the priests who potentially believe in what they're doing, we all want to make ourselves feel that the way that we earn money is righteous and good, and we'll perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to make that narrative fit. As to what is happening, it's not dissimilar to why people get into cults. You come to a cult and you come to an exorcist when you're at your most vulnerable. These are people with mental

health issues, physical issues that doctors can't seem to cure. Where I investigated exorcism in the impoverished suburbs of Buenos Aires, there wasn't the same level of education around mental health as we have in much of the West. So the kind of people visiting the Padre were suffering with delusions, schizophrenia and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Before seeing the Padre, they told me they felt weak, tempted by the devil and had compulsions and urges and pushes, and so they were in a vulnerable and malleable state of mind. They expected exorcism to work and cure them, and the Padre told them assuredly that it would. He does a diagnosis to see whether this is really a demon or something psychological. He tends to decide that, yes, it is a demon usually. He just sort of makes it

up in his head. And so the placebo effect gets to work on these people. The priest has them prepare often by fasting and praying. Then they get the patient on the floor. I'm calling them a patient. I don't know what else to call them. I can't keep saying exorcisee because it's a weird word. G. Adams, a little cumbersome. They get exorcisee. And they get them to invoke divine assistance, calling upon God and Jesus and other holy figures to help them.

The priest starts to repeat mantras about fire and brimstone in a hypnotic fashion while spritzing the vulnerable exorcisee or patient with water and throwing them around. They then go into a type of trance and arriving on the floor for almost an hour while the priest is shouting religious things like, the power of Christ compels you,

the power of Christ compels you, and so on. And he does it in such a way with such intense rhythm and repetition that it works like hypnotism. The adrenaline rush is huge. You're the centre of attention in the middle of a church. You have all these feelings at once and you're pushed around to such an extent

that it's pretty traumatic. So when it's over, there's this real feeling, again, of elation that you've been through something and you have this massive placebo relief. I asked exercised people immediately after their exorcism how they felt. And they all said, amazing. And they knew 100% in their minds that they were free. Okay, a few things. When you say they're being pushed around to such an extent, it's traumatic.

Are they literally being thrown around kind of like roughed up by the priest on the floor of the church? Is that kind of part of this? This particular priest I was watching and ones I've seen on YouTube, they're very rough. Fists in her chest, I mean, to the point that sometimes it's almost a bit inappropriate, these are often young girls, 17, 18 years old, and where he's touching is a little bit inappropriate at times, but also with fists pushing into her chest, you've got a guy behind her while she's on the floor, holding cloth over her eyes, which is just a weird thing anyway. You've got someone

holding her legs down, and as it starts to get more and more tumultuous, because that's the idea, it starts slow. It's like a radio head song, and by the end, everyone's going mad. He is then pushing her around and pulling her as if, you know, when you were younger, you might have done like pretending you were fighting in the WWE or something against invisible wrestlers. That's what is going on, really. He's sort of having a fight with himself as if it were the demon and grabbing the girl, like, oh, I'm saving her kind of thing, you know?

Yeah. Oh, man. Okay, so they feel amazing afterwards, but surely that doesn't last. You see these people go up on stage and they're cured of all the physical issues like being blind or their legs not working. What's going on when someone's like, I was blind and now I can see? That's crazy. Yeah, I think in those cases, they weren't truly blind.

Obviously. Just sort of partially blind. Yeah. I mean, that's definitely the case, because if somebody was really cured from being blind just from going up on stage, it would be the biggest news story ever of all time. Right. So their legs, again, still worked, but just with pain. And that pain is reduced by the placebo and adrenaline produced from coming up on stage

in front of a large crowd of people, crazed music, cheering, and hysteria. we've all had that feeling where we get injured maybe playing sports and we can run it off and only later an hour after the game does it start to hurt again? That's the adrenaline wearing off. The mentalist and magician Darren Brown did a great show called Miracle on Netflix where he said openly, I'm not a healer, I am not magic. And yet people still came up on stage and he appeared to cure them of their ailments. It's all psychological.

And by the way, I think a lot of people find that depressing because we want to believe in demons. If demons are real, then angels and spirits are likely to be too. And then an afterlife. And that's a very attractive and wonderful thing. But I think we should sometimes take a minute to marvel at the genius of the human mind and what it is capable of too. Isn't it amazing that we can use these psychological tricks to rid ourselves of pain, for example? Yeah, look, that stuff's fascinating.

Darren Brown was on episode 150 of the show, and he was great. We did it at his house. I've probably told the story a thousand times, so I'll keep it short. but we did it at his house, and he's since moved, so I think I could talk about this. But when you walk in, there's like, it's like walking into the club that the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are in slash the Houdini House,

because there's like a giraffe that's stuffed in the head is like coming out of the wall, and then there's a skeleton in a glass case over here, and then there's a really realistic-looking old guy reading in a chair, but it's just the dead body that they used in one of the specials that was supposed to look really, really, really, really real, and has like real, it was like $100,000 to make. And then he's got a secret passageway in there, in his house,

and a whiskey collection of all these old bottles that are on the wall and all this old stuff and antiques. And you're like, this is 100% the most magician house that I've ever seen outside of Disneyland trying to pretend that they have a magician house. This guy is just walking the walk. Wow. And it was a great conversation as well.

That guy's awesome, Darren Brown. Yeah, he's an awesome guy. I love that guy. Wow. All right. But you're also saying, that those people go back to not being able to walk or see well after the show, right? Is this the same for people suffering with like OCD or intrusive thinking and schizophrenia?

I mean, they're not curing schizophrenia with an exorcism so that they've at some point regressed to what they were before, I would assume. Yeah, yeah. And at first I was surprised because the three women that we'd seen exercised were actually still better months after the exorcism. Oh, wow. Yeah, it took months. That is surprising. I think it depends to what extent it really is a physical sort of psychological condition, like something that is literally wrong with your brain.

That can't be helped. But when we talk about like a mental issue, I think it's different that you can have a temporary pause. So that intrigued me the idea that they were better months later because as a documentary maker, you want to be challenged. You want to have surprises. Otherwise it's just we went to an exorcist. It was fake. Boring.

So, you know, they felt great these people. That was interesting to me. The problem came about. year later. That's how long it took. It's crazy. Oh, wow. Obviously, it depends on the person, but I'm thinking of a woman in particular called Candela, who we saw exercised. She was 17 at the time and had been cutting her wrists in her high school bathroom and also suffering from anorexia and bulimia. Oh, poor thing. Yeah, horrible. That was actually when we realized while filming that it wasn't funny. We thought like, oh, exorcism, what a funny, silly thing we're going to cover.

And then we're like, oh, my God, this is really serious. Yeah. There was a sense of social contagion in all of this. So that's what I mean when I say it's not necessarily something in the brain. Obviously, scientists will be able to explain all of this better, but there's definitely sometimes a case of social contagion. She had joined a website that promoted bulimia in a really horrible way, and that had become popular among some of the kids in the school. So to us, we recognize this immediately as a mental health issue, but to Candela's family, this is demonic possession. Right. And so she has the exorcism, feels immediately better. And by the way, her exorcism is really scary. She's laughing maniacally upside down, putting on a satanic voice and screaming,

She's Mine, as though the devil is taking her. It's amazing how the movies have influenced her mind. Afterwards, she feels like a million bucks. She's great, but a year later, she's feeling like shit again. Because yes, there was a placebo effect, but it didn't prevent underlying issues of what we would recognize potentially as something like depression. This is interesting, though, because I was wondering if the placebo could last long enough to get her past the social contagion aspect, away from the website, not depressed anymore for a few weeks, months, whatever, feeling good, develops the new set of friends and hobbies and gets out of that. Because then it will have done the job. And it's like, holy crap, farce or not, it totally worked, like a placebo

pain pill. Absolutely. And that's something I had to square with myself. You know, overall, psychologists I spoke to suggested exorcism was a dangerous practice because it might make exercisees less likely to seek medical help or intervention. Yes. The practice itself of exorcism can be traumatic as well. And in extreme cases, it can be taken too far, such as the case of Annalise Michelle, who died because she stopped taking food and drink after being exercised 67 times. Her parents were two Roman Catholic priests and were found guilty of negligent homicide,

but didn't see the inside of a cell. They just got three years probation. Oh, my God. First of all, that's disgusting. And I can't imagine going through this 67 times. I have a feeling this crazy and tragic case had something to do with the film The Exorcist because that is, I mean, it just sounds insane to me. Oh, absolutely.

So that's a perfect example of it. She died in 1976, so just three years after the movie first aired. There are audio recordings online and photos, and I don't suggest people look them up because they're horrible. Obviously, we'll link to those in the show notes because some of y'all are sick. Like me, because I looked them up and I have no ragrats. Although I didn't watch and listen to the whole thing. But yeah, it's creepy.

It's sad and creepy. It's horrible. It's horrible. And then a three-year-old child died, as we were talking about before, in an exorcism in a Pentecostal church in San Jose, California in 2021. Yeah, that was horrible. I mentioned that earlier. They pressed her for 10 minutes from the chest and back, and she was like three.

And it's a small little girl. And again, this was a church that I think was in the back of a single family home. So you can imagine it's probably got a congregation of like eight people. And they're fanatical because that's why they go to church in someone's house. And they pressed her from the chest in the back while praying. And they prayed for 10 straight minutes. And she's tiny so she couldn't breathe. And the autopsy report, let me just say it was hard to read, especially as a parent.

Oh, my God. It's just the worst. And that's what happens when people get into this trance and into this belief system. There are many famous or infamous cases of exorcism. One of the first in modern popular culture actually predates the movie The Exorcist. And for good reason, as you'll hear, and that is the exorcism of Roland's Doe. who was later named as Ronald Hunkler. After their aunt Harriet's death in the 1940s,

the family heard strange noises around the house, furniture moving of its own accord, and vases flying around when the boy was near. He was taken to Georgetown University Hospital, a Jesuit institution, to undergo a number of exorcisms. At the hospital? Yeah, yeah.

Wow, okay. Well, it's a Jesuit hospital, so I don't know to what extent that's a real, I mean, I guess it is a real hospital, but it's one that leaves. Very real hospital, yeah. It's a Jesuit institution, but I just still thought they were like, oh, it's for medical care, not for, like, exorcisms. But this was, what, 1940s?

So maybe they were still like, eh, we're half medicine, half exorcisms from priests. I don't know. That's a little surprising. I'd wager that still goes on. So many of the hospitals that I went to, just if I needed a checkup or whatever in Argentina, they're like super, super religious. There's like nuns walking around all of them for some reason. I never really got to the bottom of why. It's just like nuns everywhere.

So I bet that's still happening. But yeah, he went to the hospital to get a bunch of exorcisms. Believing the boy possessed by a demon, they had him restrained. But it was claimed that the boy slipped his hand out of a restraint, tore off a bedspring from beneath him, and slashed the priest's arms to stop the exorcism. Okay. That sounds like this kid was, this kid had real issues. He wasn't just like around when a vase flew across the room. This guy was, he had actual real serious issues.

Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I think so. I mean, another time the kid broke the problem. priest's nose. I mean, I get it. Good for him, I suppose, but also no. Not probably not a great kid to be around. No, I wouldn't want to be around that kid. The consensus today is that Rowlands was a deeply disturbed boy who pulled pranks deliberately to fool his family and the priests. He disappeared into obscurity and seems to have led an ordinary life. Nonetheless, the boy was one of

the most influential people in the 20th century because the book, The Exorcist was based on him. Okay, because I was about to be like, 1940s. See, they had this before the movie. And it's like, no, this guy was the inspiration for the movie. Okay. Oh, yeah. Well, there you go. He was like a one-off. Right.

No, he just, he was creative genius. I mean, he came up with the whole, hey, there's an evil spirit and it's throwing things around the house. And look, these things are moving. And I have a demon. I mean, that kid basically pioneered that, which is very interesting. I thought you were going to say he grew up to be, you know, incarcerated for being a serial killer.

But he turns out to just be like a punk, which is kind of funny. He grew up to be Jordan Harbinger. And that's where we are today, guys. No, well, it's amazing the butterfly effect, isn't it? Because he did that, and it was this whole weird situation he had. That led to the Exorcist film coming out. Countless people, more people anyway. I mean, it was happening, just not very much.

But countless more people are being exercised. And then you've got, like, the death of that three-year-old kid. That kid survives, if not for Roland Doe. Right. Or Ronald Hunkelor, as his name is also for some reason. I got to say, if you're like Roland Doe, oh, it sounds like a fake name because John Doe, let me change my name. Hunkelor is not where I'm going. going. But, you know, who knows the circumstances?

I think it is a John Doe thing. That's why they called him Roland Doe, and later his name was allowed to be mentioned, and it was actually Ronald. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay, because I'm like, if you can pick any name, you pick Hunkler, I mean, there's got to be a reason. You know what's more affordable than being beaten up by a fake priest, Andrew? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thanks again for listening to the show. All the deals are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. All right, so that's the bad side. Death and Starvation in the case of Annelese, Michelle or Michael,

and psychopathic deception in the case of Roland Doe or Ronald? Wait, Roland or Ronald? It's Roland Doe and Ronald Hunger. I love that they've gone like, okay, obviously the 1930s version of John was Roland. Or they've gone like, okay, so his name's Ronald. We're going to give him Doe, because that's just the name we do for anonymous people.

I see. And then we're going to make a really difficult first name so nobody can guess that it's actually Ronald. Let's go with Roland. It's the same name. They'll get so close. They'll never guess it's actually the same. Right. So can exorcism ever be a force for good? Because like I said, sometimes it seems like it works temporarily. So I don't know. I'm kind of on the fence.

Yeah. Well, in very specific cases, it is possible. And I mean possible as in not beyond the realms of possibility, although certainly not recommendable, that an exorcism can help. Or at least it can mask symptoms for long enough for them to disappear, as you alluded to. anyone with teenage kids will know that teens are particularly susceptible not only to social contagion but to real mental health issues. I myself suffered terribly with obsessive-compulsive disorder as a teenager. I was flipping light switches on and off all night. For many people, that stuff gets much worse and worse into adulthood. But I'm very fortunate that, you know, some people just grow out of it and I did. Wow. So let's say I had an exorcism when I was 17, which were my last few months of really suffering badly with OCD.

If the placebo effect of the exorcism had lasted a year, it would have masked my OCD for the final months of it. By the time the placebo wore off, I'd have been out on the other side. So I can imagine that there are cases where exorcism does at least appear to help. Right. Like if you'd done it, you'd be like, I had an exorcism and it worked. Yeah. Because you wouldn't have known you were going to outgrow that, which is amazing. I've never heard of anyone outgrowing OCD, but it's not like I'm paying attention to that as a professional. But I just didn't even know that was possible.

I just thought OCD people have that forever. It's like a controversial thing among OCD sufferers because some people have it so bad, man, and it's so bad. It ruins their lives, you know, and they are often, it's like a faux pa, you're not supposed to say what I'm about to say,

so take what I'm about to say with a pinch of salt. But I am of the belief that if you are able to live a good life with OCD and allow it to live alongside you, you can benefit from it. You can use that obsessiveness to your advantage to become a big podcaster or YouTuber or something like that, for example.

That is like a big no-no to say in the OCD communities because it's like you're saying like, don't you realize how serious this is? It's a crippling illness, you know? And I totally understand what those people are saying and I get it and they're right. Except in my case, it just simply has helped. And for me, it was just about learning, I think, that you sort of learn to obsess about not obsessing. So instead of like making sure the doors are shut at night, you just make sure they're open. You know, and you start to actually enjoy that lack of control. You have to obsess about learning not to try and control your environment. That's interesting.

I've got a buddy who's an investigative journalist and he is like, my superpower is OCD and I was like, ha, ha, ha, and he's like, no, no, no, really. I will chase a source down in every bit of minutia until I'm, like, and I won't sleep and it's bad for me, but it's how, he's famous and it's like, that's why I'm good at this because I can't let it go. Like, it's bad for me. I can't let it go. It's not good.

And I'm like, yeah, but you're like the best at this. And he's like, yeah, but okay, great. But I bet if he could do his life over again, he might not choose to have that. I don't know. Yeah. So, okay, if this could work, right, in some ways, at least temporarily, why don't we employ exorcism-like tactics in therapy,

where it's instead of the power of Christ compels you, it's like, we go through this ritual and it, like, works or this theatrical thing and it works? Or does it have to be, like, religious, metaphysical beliefs, or it just doesn't do anything? No, I see. I don't think it has to be in. So now it's time to be.

to talk about John Lennon, which no one saw coming, primal scream. So in the 1970s, a fad known as primal scream, therapy was gaining a reputation as a way to scream out your trauma. Okay, is that what's responsible for those recordings of Yoko Ono, one of the weirdest people in the world, screaming over John Lennon songs where they're just delusional like, this is art, you have to like it. There's a great video online you could find of John Lennon duetting with Chuck Berry. and it just freeze frames on Chuck Berry looking kind of like what is happening as Yoko just starts screaming. And you can imagine that all these sort of weirdo artists are like,

do we draw the line at some point? Because what are you doing? Yeah, yeah. So that screaming, according to the primal scream theory, is designed to get rid of all that pain and rage from childhood. The concept's founder was an eccentric guru-like psychologist called Arthur Yanov, who took Lennon in for a four-week workshop. It had a profound effect.

Lennon became one of its most passionate mouthpieces and had inspired the raw production and stripped back tracks of his plastic oh no band album in 1970. The album's lyrics address his difficult childhood and the strain of being one of the Beatles. Yanov got his inspiration from a group session in 1967 when a patient described a moment from a play that had stuck with him. Said scene involved an actor striding the stage in a diaper

while shouting mummy. Okay. Yanov and his patient play out what he'd seen, and suddenly the patient was writhing on the floor in agony. His breathing was rapid, spasmodic. Mummy, daddy came out of his mouth, almost involuntarily in loud screeches. So this is starting to sound like an exorcism,

although even more ridiculous in many ways that we don't need to get into. But yeah, it's sort of reminiscent of an exorcism. Yeah, I agree, Mommy. I mean, Jordan. So, and Yanov even... Yanov even used the terms hypnotic, writhing convulsions and piercing death-like scream that rattled the walls of my office. The book The Exorcist came out in 1971 just one year after both the publication of Yanov's The Primal Scream and John Lennon's album. It seems like screaming out one's rage was all the rage, I guess. Sorry.

Yeah, and the release of the movie version of The Exorcist in 1973 brought the practices of Exorcism and primal scream into the mainstream. Primal scream seemed to work. Yanov's patient declared afterwards, that original mummy daddy one, I made it. I don't know what, but I can feel. And that's just like the woman I saw exercise, like immediately. Yes, it's worked.

Everything's amazing. So why aren't we all screaming all the time? Maybe this podcast would be a good place to start. I'm just going to have Yoko Ono scream over my next interview. Yeah, that would be great. It's art, folks. Sorry. Turn it down every one. No, we won't do that.

Yeah. Before we start screaming, I should say that the evidence of long-term benefits from primal scream is unconvincing. Surprise. In fact, Yanov is now seen as a self-appointed guru of the hippie elite era, alongside Elron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. Oh, great company, this man. Yeah, you're really up there when you're being compared to the founder of Scientology. Shish. I know, I know. I'm imagining just now like an alternate reality where as El-Wan-Hubbard made Scientology with Tom Cruise,

because Yanov made like a John Lennon version with his own primal scream and they'd be like competing with each other. You'd have like Lennon's cult and Tom Cruise's cult. But just like Hubbard, Yanov declared psychiatry an evil, calling it the greatest hoax of the 20th century, while proclaiming his own primal scream therapy, the most important discovery of the 20th century. Oh, of course, because narcissists going to narcissist. But I can't imagine, what's more annoying, Scientologists on Hollywood Boulevard asking you to

take a personality test or screaming people on Hollywood Boulevard just screaming at the top of their lungs on the corner of Hollywood and Vine. I don't know. Yeah, both are annoying. I might take the personality test over that. I'll join both.

In 1973, he was going a bit loopy, was Yanov, our guy Yanov. Remember, this is the year leading up to the movie The Exorcist, and he created in that year a birth simulator for patients to recreate and relive their own births, covered in slimy liquid and pushed through a vinyl tube. I remember thinking while watching an exorcism that the woman I saw while she was being exercised, the women actually, all of them were going through. And by the way, I should actually

address that that they were all women. Oh, interesting. Yeah, all the ones I happened to see were women. I believe there's no way to get actual stats on that. I tried. But my anecdotal experience is that they were pretty much, they were all women. And the psychologist I spoke to said that there is something particular about women in their teenage years that is even more difficult, even more hormones and emotions and things, and that they are just more open to these kinds of experiences. So it just happens to be women. And also, the priests who happens to be men are more likely to target women. So when you combine those two factors, you end up with a lot of women being exercised. That's weird. And why are the priests targeting the women? That's a little creepy.

Like, if I'm a priest, I'm not like, oh, I want women to get the demons. It's like, Like whoever has a demon, come see me. Yeah, but they want to touch the women. That's what it sounds like. I mean, I don't even know how you sugarcoat it. It's like, no, they want to just like wrestle around the floor with a woman because that's like part of the weird kink that they got going here before they scam them out of money.

Well, you know, even look at like cults like Nixium. There were loads of women. Nixium, Keith Ranieri, just targeted women. So he was basically an exorcist in that sense. Again, that was a bit of a different one to do with women. But this was like suburban women in like California. And, you know, they had these wealthy husband. and they didn't have purpose

because they were just like the housewives, you know, so that he was really going for like Californian suburban trophy wives who needed attention and then, you know, yeah, horrible way that he targeted them. No kidding. I remember while watching these women,

it did feel like some kind of psychological pregnancy. Yanov was charging for the primal scream almost $7,000 for just like a bit of primal screaming. But he became a laughing stock in the therapeutic community and there was never any evidence of last change. So it seems that primal scream and exorcism can offer short-term relief. They're like a jolt to the system, creating adrenaline, dopamine, and who knows what else. But once that stuff wears off, you're just back to square one. Yeah, that seems right. I mean, catharsis alone makes for short-term relief. Some people

have tried to combine that kind of catharsis with deeper analysis. For example, a set of participants with stage fright were made to get up on stage and deliver speeches. This is a bit like primal scream or exorcism in terms of facing your demons going through a momentous process that sparks adrenaline. But one group of participants was also asked to talk through their feelings of stage fright before going up, while the others didn't get that opportunity. The group that was able to talk through their fears and anxieties beforehand had far lower levels of digital perspiration than the others. I think that means their hands sweated less. Yeah, I was going to say, wow, virtual perspiration. No, fingers, fingers. I always forget the digits are fingers.

No, they need to change those words because they're such different things. But it's thought that these kinds of emotional and performative therapies can be helpful providing you talk through the underlying issues and reframe them in your mind. Not only does exorcism fail to do that, but by its definition, it can't do that. For these patients to be able to talk through their issues with OCD, depression, or whatever else it might be, they'd need to understand and acknowledge that it has nothing to do with Satan. So we've covered the history of exorcism and the abstract. side of it with things like primal scream and placebo, but do we know what's actually going on in the

brain? I know you're not a scientist, but can we pinpoint changes? Has anyone, I wonder if anyone's done like exorcism and then an MRI or something like that. That probably hasn't happened yet. No, well, exorcists are typically reluctant to allow science or scientists into their churches. Many even acknowledge that there is a psychiatric side to things. My exorcist Padre Manuel said that when the patient hears voices from the inside, it's schizophrenia, and when it's from the outside, its demonic possession or vice versa, right? It doesn't make sense. It's all just voices that you're hearing in your head. But it was his way, I think, of trying to mitigate against criticism. He can always say that he does tell people to seek psychiatric help in addition to his services.

But we do know that we can actually measure the changes in the brain when, for example, Parkinson's sufferers are given placebo pills. In fact, the brain still changes when these participants are aware they're just taking sugar pills. So just the action of anticipating benefits can make real physiological changes. Neuroimaging scans show that placebo stimulates the release of dopamine, so they feel significantly better. Well, now imagine that rather than a pill to assuage your Parkinson's, you've got a trained exorcist battling the devil to save you. That's pretty powerful imagery. I know you've done several episodes about the placebo effects, specifically, so I won't belabor the point too much. But we also know that crying can be a release of psychological tension.

A lot of catharsis remains theoretical and isn't empirically provable, which is why Yanov's work and much of Freud's work is dismissed today. But there is a lot of subjective evidence, people telling us they feel better, which shows the power at least short term of catharsis. It's interesting to note that even though the idea of demons is bogus and the practice is harmful and ridiculous sometimes, that it can have some benefits. Where are some of the places that we see more exorcism today? Is it like developing world?

I mean, when I think exorcism, I think like you, Argentina or like rural Mexico, they're going to do this or something like that. Or in my neighborhood in San Jose in the back of a single family home, unfortunately. That's right. That's right. Well, yeah, I mean, partly because it's a traditionally Catholic practice, you see it in many Catholic countries. That said, even though I was in Catholic Argentina, my exorcist was an evangelical Lutheran. Many of these guys in Argentina and Brazil, for example, are basically charlatans scamming their communities for money and often have no links to any church. Outside of Catholicism, similar practices have been popular since the dawn of time.

Just think of trapanning, where prehistoric people would cut part of their skulls off to release evil spirits. Yeah, we know this because parts of their skulls have grown back before they eventually died. So you can see bits of where the skull's been growing back afterwards. Oh, that's awful. Yeah, they cut the skulls open. Yeah. And sometimes it actually worked because there was some kind of swelling on the brain or something, and it did actually help. So that's pretty crazy.

That is crazy. Today in Islam, they practice Rukya, a set of recitations to help people infected by black magic and evil spirits. Judaism in rare cases has forms of exorcism, as do Buddhism and Hinduism. Across religions and cultures, there's an obsession that someone has been infected by malignant spirits. Even within Catholicism, you get a great range. The exorcisms eyewitness are fairly typical, but they can also just be a quick prayer

and nothing too dramatic. Like a polite and mild way of defeating a demon, like a very polite and understanding deeming. Actually, I invite you to leave, Satan. You are no longer welcome in this body. All right, all right. I shall leave then. I'm out. I had no idea I was unwanted here and out I go.

Yeah, those guys are the polite ones. I mean, others need to be shouted at for an hour apparently before they leave. The Catholic Church was reluctant to discuss exorcism or really admit it was going on until the popularity of the exorcist movie. It became this big thing within the church and was done. with less embarrassment then. And then in 1991, they even allowed one of their exorcisms to be televised on ABC's 2020. This set up a divide in the church between people who wanted the Catholic Church to be more modern and understanding of modern life and mental illness, and those who wanted a more traditional

church where people are subservient to priests and God, and that latter picture of Catholicism thrived on exorcism. In 1990, the International Association of Exorcists formed to lobby the the Vatican to take them and exorcism more seriously. And in 2004, the Vatican began asking churches around the world to start appointing official exorcists. Pope Francis is a fan of exorcism. Really? He doesn't seem to be, he loves it. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. Of course, he's Argentinian as well, so they love a bit of it there. They even offered a special exorcism course in 2005. It cost $400 to sign up to and covers topics such as theology,

psychology and anthropology, as well as the background and history of exorcism. There are even now exorcists who form the ritual by phone. Who knows what will be... I mean, that was important during COVID time as well. I suppose. Yeah. Pandemic exorcism. Hey, do you do Zoom exorcisms?

Yeah, we don't want to get infected. We already have a demon over here. I understand. Just send us some... Look, who knows what will be next as the church and its exorcists try to keep up with modern technology. A $400 course on the topic of the... Exorcism that includes theology, psychology, and anthropology actually sounds like a pretty good value.

It's not bad. Even if that's like $600 in today's money. I'm like, that's actually not a bad deal. And it's 2005, so it's probably not an online course because they didn't really do that back then. There was not really a way for everybody to do that. So a live class, I mean, maybe it was only a couple of days or one day, so I don't know how much you cover.

But yeah, not too terrible for a course on exorcism. Maybe we'll have to start performing exorcisms via podcast just to shake things up and it modern. If they're doing it by phone and Zoom, we can do it via podcast. Thanks, Andrew Gold from the newly named branded Heretics podcast. I appreciate it, man. This is interesting. Oh, thank you. I was just going to say last little word here, 2005 was the year that Tom Cruise started getting all excited about Scientology and jumping on the sofa of Oprah, mad stuff with Katie Holmes, War of the World, picketing Stephen Spielberg's therapy with Scientologists and things like that. So that was a year where I think the Catholic Church had to sort of keep up in that

respect with its sort of the craziness and all of that. Interesting. And yes, it's not a bad price. So I think you should put a link to that in your description. I like to the course. Yeah, people should sign up. It's been done for 18 years, but we'll link to it in the show notes. Sure, why not?

Yeah. Thanks so much for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan atjorniger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. you can connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created

in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I'm definitely not a priest, real or fake. So do your own research

before implementing anything you hear on the show. Also, we may get things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday. If you think we really dropped the ball on something, let us know. We're usually pretty receptive to that. Y'all know how to reach me. Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com.

And we're striving more for accuracy. We had, it was tough doing these early on. It was tough because you got to make sure you get it right and you're trying out new collaborators and sometimes people do a better job on one thing than they do on the other thing. It's actually not super easy to do these. So I appreciate y'all's feedback, positive and neutral.

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