The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1035: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Lasting Love Part One

Episode Date: August 20, 2024

Renowned divorce lawyer James Sexton reveals the secrets to maintaining a healthy marriage and avoiding his office altogether! [Pt. 1/2] What We Discuss with James Sexton: Marriage is statistically risky, with a 56% failure rate for first marriages. There's often an economic aspect to relationships that people don't openly discuss. People tend to fall in love quickly but fall out of love slowly. Constantly criticizing or trash-talking your partner, even in jest with friends, can be toxic to a relationship. Preventative maintenance is key to a healthy relationship. Just as you wouldn't wait until your teeth are falling out to go to the dentist, don't wait for major issues to arise in your relationship. And much more — be sure to tune in to part two of this conversation later this week! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1035 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Start your free trial today. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. People's relationships fail. whether married or not, we fall in love really fast. It's instantaneous almost and chemical and pheromonal and all that stuff. But we fall out of love like we go bankrupt or like we gain weight very slowly and then all at once. It's this quick rush, you know, and look, I mean, you know, falling feels like flying for a little

while, you know, until you hit the ground. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom. into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional war correspondent, neuroscientist, real-life pirate and special operator.

If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about it, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime. and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, divorce lawyer James Sexton explains why marriage is the most legally significant thing we can ever do other than dying. There's a lot in this episode from

relationship advice, divorce advice, big mistakes people make when married and when getting divorced, how to pick a partner, why being hot is actually an investment for many of us, why he doesn't believe in marriage as a divorce lawyer but still believes in love and a whole lot more we went for a really long time the studio basically had to kick us out so this one is a two-parter I know you're really going to enjoy it even if this topic might seem a little odd for the show at first i would i sort of balked too until i started to dive in so you'll have the same reaction this episode made me realize just how much i love my wife and and like i said i think you're going to have a similar reaction here here we go with james sexton tell me about the idea that you

divorce the person you married? Because that's, it's obvious. And yet it's like, oh, wait a minute. I mean, a lot of people say you don't divorce the person you married, right? So that was kind of what that's born of. Okay. I got a lot of people say to me, well, you know, when the ring comes on, the mask comes off, you know. And when you marry somebody, you get to see their true face. But when you divorce them, you really see their true face. And I think to some degree, there's a little bit of truth to that. In I think, Wittgenstein said to know a thing, know its limits. When you push it past its tolerances, its true nature emerges. So I think you do see a very different side of someone when you put them into conflict with you, right? Like, you know where loyalties lie when something's put

under stress. I mean, in times of abundance, you know, everybody's very like, yeah, whatever, gregarious. Whereas when there's times of scarcity, all of a sudden, it's like, well, wait a minute, you know, this half's mine or this piece is mine. So divorce brings out something very primal, I think, in people, some people. But the idea that... that like, you know, I can't believe that this person is being, you know, so petty or I can't believe this person's so antagonistic or so narcissistic or so focused on themselves rather than the children. And then you talk to the client and you get as a divorce or the history of the marriage in real detail because it's like the clay from which I build my narrative, you know,

when I'm representing somebody in court. And you just see along lines like, well, how did you not know? Like, this person is the same person you were married to. Like, I have a client right now who I got I don't want to say an argument with my own client, but at the negotiating table and in the courtroom, I'm going to say whatever has to be said to advocate for my client's point of view. But behind closed doors, I'm very blunt and candid with my clients. I really try to say to them, you know, look, I'd rather you pay her than pay me. I'd rather that you, you know, get this resolved. And I'll talk to them about what battles are worth fighting and which ones aren't worth fighting because sometimes they don't see that clearly. Like there was a time in my career where whatever

a person wanted to fight for, I would fight for it. And then they'd call me like two years after their divorce and say, you know, why did we spend $5,000 arguing over this $3,000 thing? And I'd go, well, because you wanted to. And I told you, you were going to do that. And you said, I don't care, let's do it. And they're like, yeah, but you were thinking clearly. I wasn't. And I, you know, I get that. Yeah. But when you see people in that frame of mind, you find yourself being put in a position as I was just recently, where you say to someone like, okay, but why do you think, like, there are some problems that don't have a judicial solution. Right. Like, you married an awful person. And then you proceeded to have two children with that awful person. Like,

this was your solution to the problem. Like, oh, I married this person and right away, it was obvious they had substance use disorder or mental health issues or narcissistic, you know, tendencies, or whatever myriad of transgressions, you know, they were involved in. And then when you went, you know what I'll do that's going to fix this? Not, I'm going to get divorced. Not we're going to go to counseling, not I'm going to say to this person, if you don't go to therapy, I'm not going to work with you. I'm not going to stay with you in a relationship. Your solution was, let's have a couple of kids. Yeah. Which to me, I don't know that there's a solution to that problem. I can create some bumpers. I can get a judge to issue some orders that are going to, you know, keep this person in line.

And hopefully everybody drives a little slower when the cops are behind them. So now that they know there's a judge watching what they do, maybe they'll put on their best face. But I don't think marrying someone changes the fundamental tenets of who they are. And I don't think divorcing someone. yeah, you see the organism under stress, but they're not going to be a fundamentally different. Like, if they were a fair-minded person during the marriage, if they were someone prone to compromise or someone who would concede the possibility of their own error pretty readily, they're probably still going to be that. Yeah.

The idea that somebody transforms into this monster, you never saw it coming, it's... Well, and that's, look, I understand that creature in our imaginations, you know? Like, I know as a human being, I do that all the time, especially in relationships. Like you always imagine like, because I think there's so much vulnerability in being in a romantic relationship. Sure. Like you're really showing this person your soft spots and you're, you can't help. I mean, I know I can't help but think like, oh, if they ever weaponized that, like I'm sharing

with this person such an, you know, intimacy. People equate intimacy with sexuality, but intimacy is defined as the ability to be completely yourself with another person. And so for me, I know, I've always found. that being emotionally very open with someone and being very like, that's the thing my mom used to do or my dad used to do or this is like my soft spot that like if somebody hits that, like, oh, it stings. And that can be so necessary to have a good relationship, like to be able to say to someone like, hey, here's my blind spot or here's the part of me that's wounded. Like can we, you know,

maybe we can help heal. Because we break in relationship and we heal in relationship. So I think it's really, really important and necessary in relationships to be vulnerable and to be vulnerable and to be brave in that way, you know, and it has to be scary because if it's not scary, it's not brave, you know? But when you do that, of course, how could you not in your mind go like, oh my God, if they, you know, they've got this ammo on me. They know my soft spots now. It's like Scientology. Yeah, exactly. Right. It's your end group. I don't think any of it came from, you know, a space alien or a volcano. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely stuff deep inside of us that I don't think we can change, you know. Yeah, it's, I guess if they're nickel and

and dimming during the marriage, they're nickel and diamond during the divorce. If they're vindictive during the marriage, they're vindictive during the divorce. That's been my experience. And what I've seen a lot of people go through ringside, you know, is exactly that experience. And again, the other way, which is, like, I was a server for many years. I worked in restaurants all through college and even part of high school and graduate school. So whenever I go to a restaurant, like I wildly overtip, I'm mindful of the demands of that. And when I'm hiring, for my firm, I have a lot of employees, and every single one of them I make sure that they worked in food service at some point.

Really? Listen, if you've slung prime rib for $6.99 and gone home at two in the morning, you know, like if you've hustled for an hour and a half for a table to get a $3 tip, like you're thankful for every, I'm still, I've been doing this job as a lawyer for 25 years. I still, every day that I go home, I don't smell like prime rib and it's not two in the morning. I'm lucky. You're like I'm ahead of the game. Yeah, I'm so ahead of the game because that was such.

a challenging physically, mentally, you know, like, and for people just love to beat up on their servers, you know. So I am so profoundly aware of that, having done that job that I try to be really, really sympathetic to any server who's providing service to me. But I similarly, if you have that kind of approach to people and you're getting divorced, you're probably going to be pretty like, you know, laid back and thoughtful and okay, well, look, who you are in the marriage and who you are in the divorce is very often the same. And sometimes that's great and sometimes that's awful. Have you ever seen anybody who was kind of crappy during the marriage but then stepped up during the divorce? Yeah, I've seen that a lot. But it's usually because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

It's not uncommon. I always saw clients when they get caught cheating or their spouse gets caught cheating. There's a window. There's a very short window where this person feels very badly usually for what they've done and they're like, okay, I'm going to just throw money at this or I'm going to throw reasonableness at this and just try to salvage what's left of being like a good guy or good woman in this person's eyes. And unfortunately, I tell most of those clients, like, it's never going to be enough. Like, you could give three quarters instead of half and they'd be like, and you sure, because you better have, because you stink. Like, they just are so mad and they're so hurt that there's nothing you can throw at it that's going to make it better. But then eventually what happens is during that

window of like, oh my God, I feel very guilty and let me just throw some things at this and hope that it works, that window closes and turns into, well, you know, I did this because you were cold and you were always so cold you didn't meet my needs. And that suddenly it turns it and that's a perfect storm. Yikes. Because you've got the person who's been cheated on and the cheater who now has the permission of their own conscience to have been cheating and was trying to be nice and was trying to be conciliatory. And now it's like, you smacked my hand away and now boom, gloves are off and we're going to throw hands. Man, it's, you've said that marriage is negligent behavior. Tell me about that. I mean, we probably have to define negligence. Yeah, well, I think it fits the definition of negligence.

So negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm. Yeah. Right. That's the definition. Black's law. We're law school grads. That's right. So that's negative versus recklessness, which is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm. And so you might remember from torts in the first year, the BPL analysis, right? They, I mean, a little. bit. Really? Yeah. See, it's got stuck in my head, you know, but yeah, and I have one of those memories that I know the entire of Jay-Z's Reasonable Doubt album, you know, but I can't remember my kid's birthdays. Oh, good. Judges muscle up that. Yeah, the whole, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah,

yeah, my ex-wife thinks it's hilarious. Yeah. So the reality is, is that negligence is defined essentially as what's called a BPL analysis, which is the burden of not engaging in activity and what is it relative to the likelihood of harm and the seriousness of harm. So if there's a likelihood of harm, but it's minimal harm, then it may not be negligent, especially if not doing the thing is a substantial burden, right? Whereas, so like driving, for example, if you drive, there is a substantial likelihood you'll get in a car accident at some point, and a car accident can be a very high degree of harm. However, refraining from driving would be very difficult to do, especially in some areas of the world, right? So driving can't be said to be a negligent activity. Skydiving, okay? The risk of

harm is fairly high. If something goes wrong, the risk of catastrophic harm is incredibly high. And the problem or the burden of refraining from skydiving is minimal. Right. So that is negligent an inherently negligent activity, right? So marriage, you could pretty easily argue with a 56% fail rate. Okay. So that's the problem. Is that the stat now? That's the current stuff. Okay. That's the current stat. It's always a moving target. But the current stat is 56. Now, again, that's just the divorce rate. So that's the people who went in and filed a divorce and are getting divorced. Okay. What percentage of people stay together for the kids or for religious reasons or because they don't want to give away half their stuff? Like that's a, I would imagine a fairly high number.

Sure. But let's just forget those people. Let's say that as success stories of some kind. Sure. Like the, well, you know what? We're winning the battle because we're not getting divorced. We're both miserable, but this endurance contest continues and we're winning. Setting a terrible example for our kids. This is exactly right. We are going to hang in there and we're going to not get divorced. You know, it's really admirable, I guess, in some way. Is this 56% of couples or 56% of marriages? Of marriages. Okay, so the people who get divorced like five times, they're skewing this a little bit.

Yes, but they represent a very small percentage of population. If you look at just the first marriage failure rate, it's like 48%. That's pretty bad. It's still really bad. Put it in relative terms. Toyota had a car in the 90s that had a 0.001 break failure rate. And they recalled all of that. entire line of vehicles until they could fix it. Yeah, yeah. Because they were like, that is an unacceptable

risk. 0.001, not even 1%. But let's use 56. Let's use 48, whatever you want to use. This is a huge number. It is more likely than not that it will fail. So what is the likelihood of harm that's high? What is the severity of the harm? Most people who've been through over divorce will tell you it was one of the most traumatic experiences of their life. Sure. Some will tell you it was absolutely catastrophic. I mean, any of us who've ever had a breakup, no. Like, a breakup is tough.

A breakup is, you can say to anybody in any culture, like, break up. And they go, ooh. Yeah. Like, we all know that feeling in the pit of your stomach. And, you know, like that. We all have that. So a divorce is just that on steroids, you know? Yeah.

The trick is to be lonely and play video games by yourself all day. I mean, listen, there's a school of thought that says that not having extended relationships with any kind of intimacy and just sort of lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibilities is the way to go. I don't know. I don't know that I'm the expert on the right way to do it. You know, my mother used to always say that she couldn't define intelligence, but she could spot stupid a mile away. I don't really know what makes people happy, but I know what doesn't. I know what makes them miserable. And I can see a lot of that in the context of relationship. Sure. And so in terms of negligence, yeah, it is more likely than not going to cause serious harm.

So the bigger question on that calculation then is what's the burden of not doing it, which to me gets us back to the fundamental question, which is, if you said to me, I'm getting married, the proper response culturally is, oh, that's so great. Congratulations. Congratulations. When? What kind of cake? Are you going to be on an island? Are you going to do a big thing? Are you going to have a band or a DJ?

What are you going to do? Instead of, why? Why? Yeah, that's a rude response. It's a very response, but here's the thing. Why? If I caught you in your corporate lawyer days and you said, I'm leaving the practice of law, and I said, why? Perfectly legitimate question. That's what everyone said. I'm sure. And if you said, because I'm going to start a podcast, what's a podcast? Anyone who loves you would have said, this is a terrible idea. That is exactly what happened.

This is a terrible idea. Of course. Listen, now everybody looks back and goes, oh my God, I always knew you're going to be so Oh, yeah. I would have bought stock in you if I could have. That's what I hear. And I appreciate that. You and I have a, when I left the firm, I was working for 24 years ago and said, I'm going out of my own. I have no clients. I have nothing. I just have the hubris of youth and a law degree. I had a lot of confidence at that time, an irrational level of confidence at that time. My skill set only just recently caught up with my level of confidence. And everybody who cared about me was like, this is not field of dreams, man. If you build it, they might not come. Right. That is not a great idea. And now, of course, all of them are like, we always knew you were going to be so

successful as a lawyer and you always had such a skill level. But look, the truth is, I think we need to ask the question, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? Because I'm stunned that we don't ask that question. When someone says, I'm getting married, why is it weird to say why? This is a technology that fails the majority of the time. Why would you do that? And I think most people have never really even contemplated that question. Even married people have not contemplated that question. They just haven't, why did we get married? It's just a thing you do. It's assumed you're going to do it.

But I work from the, and maybe it's my own pathology, but I work from the preposition that tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people. It's really what tradition is. So when you just do something because that's a thing we do as a species, I'm very quick to say right, but why? Like why? Because there's lots of things we do that when you go, why, oh, okay, that makes a lot of sense. That adds up, you know.

we do it for a reason. If something is a tradition, I can work from the assumption that there must be a logic behind it. But if the proof, the undisputable proof out there is that this does not seem like a good idea, like marriage, why would you continue to work from the assumption? It's a great idea. You should definitely do it. And it's a default mode. And if you don't do it, you have intimacy issues. There's something wrong with you. Like, if you say, I'm in such a happy relationship, but we are never going to get married, it instantly becomes, Oh, what's going all at a gym? She's got some issues, yeah.

Yikes. And the truth is, it might be just good sense. So don't waste money on that wedding. Spend it on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people that I know like and trust.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free over at six-minute networking.com. This course is all about improving your relationship building skills and inspiring others to develop a relationship with you It is not cringy. It is down to earth. There's not going to be any awkward strategies or cheesy tactics. Just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better friend.

We refilmed the whole thing. It looks pretty darn good. It's also being translated into like a dozen or two different languages. And many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again for free at six minute networking.com. Now back to James Sexton.

I got a buddy who got married because his wife. is from another country, and it was a huge pain to have her stay here, get pregnant, have a kid, citizenship of both the European country that she's in and he can't get insurance there. So I was like, that's a good reason. Great reason. Yeah. That's a great reason. It's a pragmatic reason.

It's a practical reason. If you say, look, I have terrible health insurance and my soon-to-be spouse, my romantic partner I've been with for a number of years has phenomenal low-cost health insurance that would cover my dental, optical, and everything. Perfectly pragmatic good reason. You know, religious. We come from a religious tradition. My spouse and I, or my soon-to-be spouse and I, that we believe religion, you know, that marriage is a covenant from God, or we believe it's a sacrament, or we believe that it's, okay, cool, good reason. Good reason. I don't know that it's going to make it work any better, but it certainly is a good enough reason. But just asking the question, the fact that asking that question is considered rude in the face of the overwhelmingly bad statistics. I just don't understand why that. It's a weird thing to say. No, it's not.

Although you're in a unique position of credibility when it comes to this stuff. I think probably a lot of people don't really want to hear your opinion when they're, until they're getting divorced. I'm definitely the skunk at the picnic. Right, right. Yeah. People are simultaneously fascinated by what I do. Sure. And terrified to let it anywhere near it.

Well, it's like a hit man. Exactly. It's like, oh my God, my friend is so interesting. Do not invite that guy to the Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People love the, what do you do?

Oh my God. you must have some stories. And they're real into it. But I think they all want to believe that they're personally exempt from the things that I've seen and that the people in my office are somehow different than them. And that they're, you know, completely like the rules don't, that I see don't apply to them. Sure. And I think that's, you know, there's something in us that wants that.

I get it. Well, they think you're just real housewives all the time. Reality TV show plates thrown across the kitchen when, I would, would assume the story, correct me if I'm wrong, is more like, yeah, they got married and it was great. And then over time, they just stopped really being. Yeah, I mean, you know, there is a lot of the real housewife stuff in my office. I've actually represented some of the actual real housewives. But the majority of divorces don't need someone like me. That's one thing. So you don't need me if you're just two people, lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, two kids, a house and 401k.

And you just got to split it up. You don't need me. for that. I'm a chainsaw. I'm not a scalpel. You use me when there are stakes and when you need, when you need a weapon. You know, I'm a weapon. That's my job. And so the kinds of cases I handle tend to have a crazy component to them, or at least the potential for crazy. So you want me. Like there's a saying that police officers carry guns so they don't have to use them. And so sometimes people hire me so they don't have to use me. Like they hire me and I'm the threat of Oh, yeah, those five magic words, please call your first witness. Like, those are going to get said if you take the wrong turn here, so let's get this thing done.

The better I get as a trial lawyer, the less often I have to try cases. It's like, the better you get as a fighter, the less often you have to fight probably, because people look at you and go, yeah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to swing on that guy. So the best trial lawyers in this city, like, we all know each other, but we end up just negotiating with each other. We don't have trying cases against each other that often because it's a doctrine of mutually assured destruction. We both have nukes. Sure.

But the majority of marriages, and with a whimper, not a bang. There are two people that just grow apart in some fashion. And I've said it before that people's relationships fail, whether married or not. We fall in love really fast. It's instantaneous almost and chemical and pheromonal and all that stuff. But we fall out of love like we go bankrupt or like we gain weight very slowly and then all at once. It's this quick rush, you know. And look, I mean, you know, falling feels like full. lying for a little while, you know, until you hit the ground. Right. But I get that like we, we fall in love super fast as a species. And then when we're falling in love or anyone around us is falling in love, we absolutely like, we just love being around it even. Yeah, sure.

You listen to those same group of women, you know, that you see in the restaurant, like rolling their eyes, talking about their husband is just such an idiot, you know, da-da-da-da. And then one of the women in the group who's either divorced or not married yet, starts talking about a guy who she's sitting there. What did you do? Oh my God. That's so romantic. Oh, my God. And where did he take you? Oh, my God. That's so amazing. As if that guy is not in five years going to be who she's talking about the same way they're talking about their current spouses and vice versa. The man, it's the same thing. It's like the right now they're sitting there talking about rolling their eyes about their spouse. Well, and the buddy who's single, oh my God, this woman's so great. She's perfect. She's amazing. This is a glitch in our

programming. It is. I will tell you just personally, we do not let our, my group of friends does not let, we don't allow, if a guy's like, hey, my spouse is doing this thing. If it's serious, we'll talk about it, but if it's just like, oh, she's so dumb, this, we're like, hey, man, because that, I feel like that's the beginning or symptom of something that is not healthy. Yeah, I applaud you for that. I've been very vocal about the fact that I think we need to stop trash talking our partners. Yeah, 100%. The world is beating the crap out of us enough. Your partner should be, I'm not saying they shouldn't see your blind spots. I'm not saying they should call you out when you get it wrong. I think that's one of the best things about being in a relationship is having somebody who,

with love, like with your good intentions and heart, you know, like you know it's coming from a place of love. And they're like, hey, man, you're not seeing this, but this is what this is. Like, to me, that's the whole reason. I want friends like that. I want romantic partner like that. I want all the people. I want co-workers like that. Like, I want people who aren't afraid to tell me the truth. I don't want a bunch of yes men around me. But it's, There is something so toxic about creating an environment where the default mode is everybody talking trash about their partner. Because, I mean, just the pain to me of like this person who's supposed to be your cheerleader, your main support. It's like the only person who's supposed to be on your team all the time besides maybe your parents.

And some people don't have. I mean, I think anything comes out of your mouth. If you're in a relationship, you know, anything comes out of your mouth. Would it come out of your mouth if your partner are standing right there? even interacting with the opposite sex or whoever your preference would be. Like, you know, if you're with someone romantically and you're talking to someone else who's a potential romantic partner and you're talking to them in a manner that you would not be speaking in that way if your partner was standing next to you, that's a problem as far as I'm concerned. I think that you should, and the truth is, is not just from a morality place.

I'm not saying it from there. I'm saying in terms of the love you want, because if you behave one way around your spouse or partner and another way in their absence, then really, are you ever going to feel your spouse or partner's love? That's right. Because you're going to be like, oh, well, they love what they think I'm like, but I'm not actually like that. So then you created a situation where you never really will feel their love. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I think especially, I think media is a little bit complicit in this, right? You have like the Everybody Loves Raymond where the guys are all idiots. And it's funny, but it should stay on TV only. And then you have like the locker room talk with guys.

And it's just, you have to draw a line. So I'm not. saying you can't be like, wow, that girl that you're dating right now is beautiful, man, good for you. That's fine. But when it's like, oh, our wives are all fat and ugly, it's like, hey, you know, eventually you're going to start believing that if you don't already. Yeah. And also, I think you're going to, because I do think sometimes people do it from a place of trying to, like, team building. Right. Yeah. So there's just other ways to do that. If you're in a room full of people who are all talking about how their spouse sucks, you don't want to be the one voice that goes, oh, no, mine's great. Like, it feels rude. Yeah. It feels.

Well, you're breaking lip-war, yeah. So you're like, okay, I got to find something about mine to say bad. But the truth is, like, I just think long-term that's super toxic. And I think it's one of the most antagonistic things to happy relationships. If you look at people, I talked about this with Lex Friedman when I was on his show. He was talking about, I think he was talking about Joe Rogan, actually, he was good friends with it. He was talking about how Joe's been married, you know, for a really, really long time. And how when he talks, like, his wife looks at him like, oh, like, this guy's so smart.

He's so awesome, you know? And like, what a lovely thing to have. And by the way, like, you would not ever hear Joe Rogan say a bad thing about his spouse, ever. Like, you search the archives. You've heard him say some crazy stuff about a bunch of crazy stuff. But you'll never hear him trash talking his spouse. And that, I think, is really admirable. And it's probably why he has one of the more successful marriages out there for a long period of time,

because this is not a person who's trash talking their spouse. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how that becomes a default for, like you said, for so many guys. But again, I think it's easy to snap out of that, too. You just decide that you're not going to do that anymore. And when you're trying to lead the way on this, I mean, I just say, like, you brought this up in a show. You say, like, how did you guys meet?

It changes the mood. And I will force my friends to tell me this story repeatedly. One buddy in mine was like, why do you keep asking me that? You've heard this before. And I'm like, hey, I'm trying to snap you out of this bullshit. Yeah, it pulls you out of it. Yeah. You know, there was a scene in Godfather, too, that I always really liked where De Niro, you know, playing the young Don Corleone, is.

sitting in a theater with his like buddy, one of his consigliary friends, you know, this before he's the godfather. And he says, oh, you know, this girl, this girl who's in this show, I'm so in love there. She's the most beautiful woman in the world. She's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. And she comes on the stage and he says to De Niro's character, like, look, isn't she beautiful? Isn't she the most beautiful woman you've ever seen? And, you know, in classic De Niro, you know, godfather, Don Corleone. He says, you know, essentially an Italian, but it's translated. He says, you know, for me, there's my wife. But yeah, that's great. And I thought like, that's so money. Like, that's so like, you know, for me, there's my wife.

But you know what? Like, that's great. That's great. And I have a couple of buddies that, like, that's how they talk about their wife. Is that they're like, you know, listen, I found my girl. But that's great for you. Like, are you? And you can say it.

And I'm like, oh, man, check this girl out. Isn't she stunning. And they're like, beautiful girl. I mean, listen, for me, there's my wife. But, like, for you, that's great, you know. And I think there's something so. I mean, again, this is my conception of masculinity. Like, I think there's something very masculine and cool about a guy who's like, yeah, I picked a good one.

I picked a good one and I'm happy. It's also, like you said, a lot of this is just peer pressure nonsense or like machismo crap. You actually, speaking of looks, you said something or I read something, you said essentially, I'm paraphrasing here. Being hot is one of the most lucrative things you can do. For sure. I'd love to hear you talk about this because most people would never actually admit this. Well, no one didn't say that loud, but everybody knows it's true.

Right, right. I mean, it's like these people won the genetic lottery. Like being good looking and being attractive is incredibly valuable. Look, you've either got to be super talented, rich, or good looking. Yeah, two out of three eight. Which one of those is the easiest thing to be, right? There are people that are just born like that. Like just born six foot and gorgeous. Like, and that's it. And if you get to pick which of those things you want to be, right? You know, whether you want to be, you know, born rich, that's certainly nice. But to get rich, most people have to work at it. You know, brilliant to be brilliant. Like, look, some people are born with a high IQ, but there's still a lot of work that has to go along with becoming educated in some fashion. Being good looking, yeah, okay, you got to take care of yourself. Maybe you have to eat the right things once you pass a certain age. You have to work out once you pass a certain age. I mean, I think for your 20s, you can kind of get away with any number of things, you know. Sure. But I think the truth is, yeah, like I do a lot of divorces for

people in finance. I'm a divorce lawyer in Manhattan. So we are the hub of commerce. Many of my wealthiest clients worth hundreds of millions and billions of dollars are in finance. They're partners at huge firms like Goldman Sachs and any of the other, you know, investment capital type of firms. they typically marry yoga teachers, models, artists, you know, creatives, people who do not really, they're not lucrative earners, but they just happen to be extremely attractive. And many of my clients, what a coincidence. In finance, they are not the most attractive. They are not people who, if you went in a room and said, this woman and this man, you would go,

they're not on the same level in terms of their looks. So I don't think it's profane or inappropriate or insulting to anybody to say that there is an aspect of love that is an economy. Yeah. You know, it's love is a feeling. Love is a verb, like to act with love. But love is an economy. And I think we should be a little more honest about that in the world. As a divorce lawyer, I don't have the luxury of being able to pretend that it's not. I understand why we want to pretend that no, it's the heart and that's all that it is and there's nothing else to it. There's an economy to it, gang. Like, we all know that. Nobody's really being honest about this, right? Like, if you ask- Well, everyone's being honest. I love people are being honest about it.

They're acting honestly. No one is saying it out loud. I'm saying it out loud. I'm saying the quiet part out loud. Right. The guy would probably never, well, it depends on the guy, but he's probably going to go, you know, we just clicked. It was great. He's not going to go, yeah, I'm a fat, schlubby dude who it smells bad, but I'm loaded. Which is shocking to me. Because you would think, I mean, some of these guys are the most intelligent people. Like, they're the smartest person in the room. And they understand, like, some of them are quant people that they understand, like, they understand mathematics and numbers in a way that I never will.

They're not risk adverse, if anything, they lean into risk. So they're constantly doing the calculus in their head of, like, risk versus reward. So these are smart, tenacious, hardworking, forward-thinking people who are disciplined. When it comes to love, they're the total opposite. They're just idiots. And they really legit don't see what's plainly in front of them. No, she's not, it's not just that you click. It's not that she's an old soul.

So the fact that she's 25, 30 years younger than you doesn't mean anything because she's an old soul or you're young at heart. It's just not totally. And again, I just think there's something silly about that. It would just be so much nicer and more honest to say, you know what? I bring a lot to the table in terms of resources and stability and security. she brings a lot to the table in terms of energy and enthusiasm and beauty. And she brings to my life a type of beauty that inspires something in me and makes me feel so

alive. And I mean, as a heterosexual man, like when I walk past a beautiful woman and smell the perfume of her and the, like, it's lovely. Like, it's a lovely feeling. I mean, even if you never act on that, even if you never have any interaction with that woman again, just being in the presence of beauty is a lovely feeling, you know? I'm sure that I had a conversation with a bisexual friend of mine. And I said, so do you just experience that all day with like every gender?

And he was like, yeah. And I was like, my God, like, how do you get anything done? Yeah. You know, I was like, you walk down the street and like, he just raises the bar. Yeah, you're just surrounded by gorgeous people, you know, both gender. Like, what a lovely gift to be able to experience that. But the truth is that I just think there's nothing wrong with saying that, with saying that, yes, part of what I really like about this person is their beauty,

their youth. And part of what this person likes about me is my stability and financial security and the fact that I want to use my resources to make their life more comfortable and beautiful. I've had plenty of cases, very often pre-ups, so they're still married, where he brings a lot of finance to the table. She's a creative person who, unfortunately, we don't reward many of the arts and the creative pursuits of the world out there. Like, you know, a person who does Reiki and is helping a bunch of people or who works as a therapist or a teacher isn't making that much money compared to someone in finance who's like really creating nothing. They're just moving numbers around columns and they're making billions doing it. What's wrong with saying, you know, I want her to be able to do this beautiful, wonderful thing for the

world or for the people who she serves and to also be able to enjoy abundance and beauty and travel and all the wonderful things that come with resources. So what's wrong with that? I don't understand wrong with that, as long as it's honest, right? As long as everyone is being candid with each other about what that exchange is made up of. Yeah, I think because it's not romantic, or it's considered, like, distasteful to say. But why isn't it romantic? Yeah, no, I agree with you. I don't think that robs the romance. I 100% agree with you. Like, I don't have to, I've often quoted the Joseph Brodsky poem that I like very much called a song where there's a line where he says, I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear. Because there's something about knowing astronomy that makes the stars less

beautiful, but I don't know that that's true. I don't know about that. I think. I think of anything. Like, one of my best friends is an art history professor. And I like to go to museums here in New York. It's one of the reasons I live in New York. And whenever I go to an art museum with him, because he knows like the life history of every artist. It's way more interesting that way, man. Oh my God. Like, I love Francis Bacon. But then when he was like, yeah, he was like a closeted homosexual who was raised in this, you know, Roman Catholic society, Irish Catholic society. And then you see like the pain in his art and like the kind of bondage that's a big theme in his art. It makes so much more sense and it's so much more. It doesn't rob it of its beauty

of anything. It makes it more beautiful because you understand it better. You can get your hands around it. Honestly, I don't, I'm not an art guy at all, but if I go on a really good tour where somebody's like, what does this look like to you? And I'm like, oh, it's like a photograph, but it's a painting. She goes, exactly. He painted something in motion. And the way he did that was to make it look like a photograph. And I'm like, this is a million. I would have walked right past that. And been like, where's Van Gogh, take a picture, look at it, admire it, leave. It was just. And isn't there something beautiful about, like, the truth, you know, as someone who's involved in full contact storytelling, I always tell my clients, like, the truth just sounds different. It just feels different. Like, you can just feel the truth sometimes. And I really think there's something very beautiful about truth. And I think in relationships, like, there's a real beauty to be found in being radically candid with each other. Yeah. About what you're really feeling, what you're really afraid of. What really for good or for bad, like, is hitting you the wrong way. And that's why in my book,

I talk a lot about, I call it hitting send now, but essentially like being radically candid with your partner about when little things rub you the wrong way, in a non-attacking way, so it's not met with defensiveness. And in a non-confrontational way, I recommend things like an email, so a person, you can parse it carefully and then they can digest it in their own time. Talking about these little seeds of hurt before they grow into these like bushes of resentment, you know? And I think it's a whole lot easier to control it when it's just that little seed. My wife is good at this. She's, and she's helped me get better at this. She'll say something like, hey, you know the other day when this happened? That kind of just made me feel like you weren't on my team in that conversation.

I'm like, oh, I did that. And you're right. I kind of should have seen that coming. Maybe next time I won't do it that way or whatever. And it's so helpful. Yeah, there's so much value in that discussion. much value, man. And there's so much value and also learning then how the other person thinks, because I'm sure in that response, like your first response is, okay, well, first of all, I'm sorry because I know I didn't mean to hurt you. I know that. I know that. I'm sure, like, could I have avoided that? I'm sure I did. And so I apologize for that because I know I didn't mean to. Right. But here's what I was thinking. Like, here's why I said that because it wasn't, well, good, because I wanted to hurt you. It was, no, I said that because I understood it this way or I

didn't realize that bothered you, and that's why, like, and I think when you understand how this person's thinking better, like, I have found, I said it earlier, and I'll say it a thousand times, like, we break in relationship and we heal in relationship. And I think when you've had difficult relationships or you've had, quote unquote, unsuccessful relationships that result in not a happily ever after, but instead ending and then, you know, moving in your own directions and starting new relationships. You can look at each of those as like, okay, now I know a bunch of things about what doesn't work for me, both in terms of what I could do different or what I want different in a partner or what I won't do again in terms of how I handled something. And I'd like to think

we just get better and better at this if we approach it the right way, mindfully. Did your ex take all the furniture? Buy something new from the amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, the discount codes, the ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, email me, Jordan atjurbinger.com. I am happy to surface that code for you.

Yes, it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to James Sexton. I will say every time I've had a long-term relationship in my life, I'll go, all right, what worked in this one? This isn't even necessarily a conscious process. This is just like, I really like these five things about her. These other things were the deal breaker. Like she was super XYZ or like I dated a girl.

It was really great. But she was very religious and she was like, I think gay people are all going to hell. And I was like, I can't teach my kids that. It's a bridge too far. I can't do it. And we talked about this a lot and she's just like, I don't even dislike them. I just think that they're all going to burn in hell. And I'm like, that's, I'm not raising kids in this environment.

And so I was like, I want, these eight things that were really great, if possible, but I can't deal with these two things that were not great. But I've found that friends of mine who are divorced in like a mess, they tend to make the same mistakes over and over again, or they're stuck in this weird pattern. I go, so you broke up with her because of this, your new girlfriend has all of those same downsides, but she's different in other ways. I'm so confused right now. Well, this is the reality of like people not being in therapy as far as I'm concerned. I really, I really do think that like one of the things I'm so grateful to have seen happen in my lifetime

is the normalization of mental health services. Well, hell yeah. People go into therapists because I think one of the best things you can do for yourself is like, okay, I find this attractive. Okay, why? Like, why is that attractive to you? Is there something, is there a wound that you had that that helps heal? Yeah.

Or is there a wound that you had that that repeats for you and therefore justifies that original wound? Like, so are you just hurting yourself? Like, oh, this is a familiar kind of pain. So I'm just going to keep signing up for it. Yes, sir. And for men, I don't know if this is true for women because I've never been a woman, but I know for myself as a man and many of my male friends is, like, who my penis is interested in

and who I should be interested in, like, who's good for me are very different. And I don't know if that's true for women. Like, I don't know if the clitoris is like, you know, it has its own mind of like, oh, I like that. But that's really bad for my prefrontal cortex. Like, that's really bad for the rest of my biology. Yeah. And so if that's the case, like, I'm not saying don't indulge that. Like, listen, cupcakes are bad for you.

But you can have a cupcake once in a while. It's okay. You know, just know, like, this is not my new eating plan. And this is not like what I'm going to eat every day. If this becomes a staple of your diet, you're going to be unhappy. So, you know, I don't mind if somebody says, listen, I find this very attractive. I don't know why. Like, desire, you know, when I was teaching my own children who are now adults,

when I was teaching them, because I had a lot of gay and lesbian friends at the time they were little, and I live in Chelsea, so I'm primarily gay area. And I was always surrounded by, you know, gay men. And so explaining to my sons, like some boys like boys and some girls like girls and some boys like girls, and you know how I like your mom? She has pretty blonde hair. And I think mom is super pretty, because she has pretty blonde hair. Well, some people like, you know, women with dark hair. And some men like men with dark hair. Like, people like different things. But what's nice is someday you're going to figure out what you like, and hopefully you're going to like something, and someone's going to like the same thing that you like, and the two of you're going to

hug and kiss each other, and that's one of the nicest things in the whole wide world. That was like basically my 101 explanation, and both of my sons ended up quite well adjusted and in happy relationships. So the truth of all of this is, you know, we can't explain certain aspects of our desire. So why not just acknowledge, like, yeah, I really like that. It's not good for me. Yeah. It doesn't work for me.

It leads me down dark roads. I've learned that. But I still really like it. So I might have to just look at it from afar and go, yeah. Like, listen, I used to smoke cigarettes many, many years ago. I quit smoking 20 plus years ago. But I still look at someone smoking a cigarette. I can't watch Mad Men and not go, oh, God, that looks so good, you know.

With a whiskey. Yeah. In doors. You tell me I'm dying next week. I'm going to start smoking again for sure. You know, like, and I'm sure the minute I took one puff, I would be like, oh, my God. How did I ever do this? I guarantee it.

But I have to tell you, like, in. my mind. Like, I know it's really bad for me, but it's something that was alluring to me and looks compelling to me. Maybe the reality of it wouldn't be as good as what it is in my mind. But I've learned enough to know I'm not going to tempt fake, because I think if I went and bought a pack of cigarettes and it started smoking them, within a week, I'd be smoking two packs a day, so I'm not going there. You got to treat it like drinking, well, or drinking it, sure, depending on how you drink, I guess. But like, for me, yeah, not at all. I mean, for me, it's rarely I'll have like an old-fashioned. Sure. It's very occasional.

And you get, like you said, guys who only date, like, really bad for them people. Sure. Way to. There's tons of women who date. Yeah, I'm talking about guys in my own circle. Sure, sure. And you just go, when are you going to learn? And it's like, you don't have whiskey for breakfast generally.

But this is a biological blind spot. It is. It really is. And I think it might be part of the programming. Like, it might be part of our biological programming is that there are some things that I think are just hardwired into human beings. Like, if you talk to any woman who's given birth, They will tell you that right after they gave birth, the thought of ever having a kid again,

they were like, oh my God, I'll never do this again. It was so physically painful. It was so awful. It was so horrific. And like six months a year later, their brain goes, oh, wasn't that bad. What was that? Yeah, they forgot. And there's something in us that puts that aside and goes, nope, like memory is kind for that reason, you know.

And so I think it's the same thing with relationships. There's some voice inside of us that I think comes from some deep part of our biology, our wiring, that says, you know, oh, no, it's going to be different this time. Like, this time it's love. This time it's real. Even if you're self-aware, man, I got to be careful. I don't make this person too obvious. I have a friend that I knew when I was younger that I still know.

It's a hedge fund guy. Like, smart guy, very smart. He only dated the most horrible meanest women that he could find. And his parents were both fine. I met them. They're great. his sister was a sweet gal. If he found somebody who was just kind of horrific most of the time, that's what he liked.

And he goes, yeah, I just really love this. And I'm like, you've got to be so careful. Married a totally perfectly nice woman. Thank God. But it was close. But that may have been that phenomenon that like, you know, that he found something exciting about the conflict and the chaos. Yeah.

And that's okay. Like I said, listen, if you're a thrill seeker, you might look for that. But if you had, thank God, he had the good sense to say, long term, that's not what I'm going for. Yeah. Like, I'm going to go for something long term and committed that's going to be a lot calmer than that. I mean, he would, he literally, there were girls. He is in the minority. There were girls where we go, I think she's like a psychopath. Yeah. Because she wanted to be, I remember this one, wanted to be a brain surgeon. And we were like, wow, she's so smart. And then we found out that one of the things she liked was cutting people open and then writing her initials on people's

skull when she was cutting their skull open and I go, why? And she's like, just so I'm there and they can never get rid of me. And I was like, well, that's creepy as hell. That is creepy as hell. That's super creepy. And yet, really, yeah, it's very creepy. She sounds very interesting. Yeah, well, she was interesting. Like, she was interesting. Like, if you gave me a choice between someone who on the weekends wants to make, like, tuna noodle casserole. Yeah. And go to, like, the local, like, parade for, like, whatever, you know, Arbor Day. Or someone who does shit like that. Yeah. Sign me out. I don't know that I'm going to want to marry either of those people. Raised children with them, et cetera.

I'm not doing that with either. But I have to tell you, if you ask me which of those two you want to talk to, the brain carving chick, I want to talk to her. That is interesting to me. I'll introduce you. She's probably a divorce by now. Well, who knows. I might already know her.

You might already know her. Maintaining a healthy marriage is like maintaining a healthy weight. And I think, I don't know if you said this, but don't wait until your teeth are falling out to go to the dentist. Yes, I sort of to our earlier point, right? Yeah. I said that. I definitely said like, because my sister.

is a dentist, and I always use her as the example. My sister always says to me that by the time you have a toothache, it's too late. Like, there's a bunch of things I could have done for you before you got a toothache. But now that you got a toothache, it's too late. So that's the original title of my first book was if you're in my office, it's already too late. Yeah, nice. And so I genuinely believe that by the time divorces anything other than a fleeting thought you have when your spouse does something really boneheaded, it's pretty far along. Like, you're starting to really have a toothache at that point. So I genuinely believe in preventative maintenance. I think that it's much easier, as the metaphor you said, it's much easier to maintain a healthy weight than it is to gain a ton of weight and then try to lose all that weight.

And it's also worse for you to do it that way. Like, it's better to just try to create a steady state and understand that every now and then you're going to put on a couple pounds or lose a couple pounds unexpectedly, more often put on a couple pounds unexpectedly. But it's the same kind of thing. You're occasionally going to have turbulence with your partner. You can't, it's hard to relate to yourself, much less to another person. person in such an intimate world and an antagonistic world. Like, you know, that's why I always say to

people, like, why do we learn how to fight with our partner while we're in a fight with our partner? That seems really stupid to me. Like, why not when you're getting married or starting a relationship and you have this abundance of goodwill together where you just really like each other more than anything in the whole wide world? Like when you're first dating, I love talking to people who are just drunk on the, like, how into each other they are. Like that stage is so fun to even be around. Like, it's why we watch rom-coms and stuff. It's so fun to watch people who are just like enamored with this other, and everything they do is awesome. And like even they're like things they do that are kind of annoying. They're like, oh, and this is like this little piccadillo of their personality.

Like, you know, you know that five years later, it's going to be like, why are you breathing like that? Yeah. But at that first date or that fifth date, it's like, oh, and he breathes so weird, it's so cute. Her nose whistles when she sleeps. Like that whistling's going to drive you nuts in five years. But again, what is it about? It's about how you're. approaching this thing. And like, you got Christmas in your eyes all the time with this person. So to me, figuring out a way to sustain that high or like how to continue to stand in the presence of that is really the key. You know, the book I'm working on now is about endings. And it's about how when we put ourselves in the mind of the ending, we really savor everything that leads to it much better. So,

like when we are in the presence of death, we're very much alive. When we're in the presence of illness, we're grateful for our good health and mindful of our good health. When we see someone who's lost their job, we're so grateful for the job we have. There's so much we can, like every new beginning came from some other beginnings end. And there's something really beautiful about what I do for a living in that I see all of these endings. And they all came from people that were facing in the same direction at one point. Like at some point, they were like, let's do this. There's eight billion people in the world and let's pick each other and let's hold hands and let's try to navigate it together and try to help each other go through it. And, you know, like, it's so beautiful.

It's such a worthwhile sentiment. Maybe it's a foolish sentiment. I don't know, but it's so human. And the fact that so many of them, 50% or more lose the plot. And I just think there's something beautiful about that, that we keep trying. We keep trying. We keep trying. trying to not lose the plot, and we keep stepping on the same landmines over and over and over again. And so I think preventative maintenance is probably the key, because you all started in the same spot, which is madly in love with each other. So why not have conversations about, hey, how are we going to keep this on track? When we disagree, when we fight, what should that look like? What do you need? Do you need a minute? Or are you the like, okay, we got to deal with this right now.

we can't go to bed angry type. Because if one of us is that and one of us is the other type, we've got to figure out how to balance that the right way. You know, like, have some of those conversations when there's still so much goodwill between the two of you. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night.

I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three piece of velvet suit. Why not? Why not? So this guy is, you know, he's really drunk and he's clearly looking for a fight and he is with his girlfriend and all his adrenaline is kind of, you know, up here and he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at or what's your problem or something? In that situation, you can't respond with, oh, I'm not looking at anything because then

you're on the back foot and they've got power or yeah, I'm looking at you, what's your problem? Because either way you're going to get hit. But you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. So his reaction to that is a bit of a pause. He's like, what? And I said, oh, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. And I lived in Spain, the walls that were quite high, but here, that tiny, I mean, nothing.

So he then, he just went, oh, fuck! And started crying. His girlfriend walked off, and he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. There'd been some fight, and weirdly, then I'm giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing, and he was an artist and used to walk home from his studio late at night

through a rough bit of London. And there were always these kind of gangs on one side of the road, so he'd always cross over away from them. Of course, they'd always see that, and it was this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating thing. So we spoke about it, and then the next night, he crossed over the road to them and said, good evening as he walked past them,

and of course they left him alone, because you just seem like a strange. Yeah. I don't touch the idea. He's crazy. He's just weird. Yeah. Who wants to see a magic trick?

For an inside look at the levers in our own brain, alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists, check out episode 150 of the Jordan Harbinger show. That's the end of part one. Part two coming up in just a little bit here. All things James Sexton will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show. all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

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I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created an association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who maybe could use a little advice in this area, might be thinking about getting married, might be thinking about getting divorced. Definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show

so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way.

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