The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1036: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Lasting Love Part Two

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

Renowned divorce lawyer James Sexton reveals the secrets to maintaining a healthy marriage and avoiding his office altogether! [Pt. 2/2 — find part 1 here!] What We Discuss with James Sexton: Many people enter marriage without understanding its legal implications. James Sexton estimates that 95% of people who come to his office are learning about the marriage contract for the first time. Social media has made infidelity much easier and more accessible. James notes that platforms like Facebook and Instagram create opportunities for inappropriate private conversations and flirtations. Prenuptial agreements are becoming increasingly common, especially among younger people in their 20s and 30s. James observes a growing pragmatism and realism in approaching marriage. All marriages end, either through death or divorce. James encourages people to be mindful of endings, as it can make them more appreciative of their current relationships. Being open and honest about your concerns and fears in a relationship can strengthen your bond. Having pragmatic conversations about finances, living arrangements, and potential scenarios doesn't diminish romance — instead, it demonstrates care and foresight for your partner's well-being. Consider having these discussions and potentially creating a prenuptial agreement to ensure you're both on the same page about your future together. And much more — be sure to tune in to part one of this conversation here for the full story! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1036 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. If you genuinely wanted to improve the state of marriage, you would probably create some barriers to entry. Like, to learn how to drive, you've got to take a written test. Then you have to get a learner's permit. Then you have a period of time that's unwaivable, that you have to learn how to drive. Then you have to take an exam that shows you know how to do this thing,

and then you're allowed to get a driver's license. Marriage, you can meet a stripper in Vegas, and Elvis will marry you for 50 bucks 20 minutes later. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with the variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers,

even the occasional cold case homicide investigator, hostage negotiator, or economic hitman. And if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs is a great place to begin. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation in cyber warfare, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, part two with James Sexton.

If you haven't heard part one, of course, go back and listen to that. We are diving deep into the business of marriage. more specifically divorce and love itself. Here we go, part two with James Sexton. It sounds to me like you believe in love, but not necessarily in marriage. Is that accurate? I think those two things are not causal,

and I'm not even sure they're correlated. I'm a huge believer in love. I think love is the greatest thing. It's the why we're here. I think that it, I mean, it's literally why we're here, and it's also, I think, the purpose of life. I mean, the greatest things. I've been loved and I've loved.

And there is nothing in the world that has the value of loving and being loved as far as I can see. And so that's the greatest. It should be the height of what we're looking for in life and looking to create in life. I don't know what marriage has to do with that. Marriage is a contract. Marriage is a legal status. I understand. I get pilloried in the comments every time I do an appearance saying, you know, well, marriage is a covenant.

People marry because of God and everything is. Okay, cool. That's their belief system. Listen, my beliefs don't require that you believe them, so that's fine. Like, if you believe that, then knock yourself out. Like, fill your boots, buddy, but, you know, it's not going to change the divorce rate. I think ultimately, I believe in love, and I believe that marriage is a conception of the state. And it's when I'm talking about marriage, I'm talking about the law.

I'm talking about the legal status of marriage. I'm not talking about the sacrament of marriage. I'm not talking about religious covenant marriage. I am talking about the legal status. And to me, two people who are very in love with each other, and one of them says, let's get the government involved. It makes no sense to me. You've seen the end of a lot of marriages. And do you think that's the reason that you don't believe so much in marriage or were you kind of always this way?

Did you have personal stuff that came into it, were your parents all right? No, my parents were married for over 50 years until my mom passed away. And my dad was at her bedside when she passed away. and she had a long battle with cancer. They had a lovely marriage. I think like any long-term marriage, they had their challenges within it. But they loved each other very, very well.

Their lives were better for each other's presence. And my own marriage ended in divorce, but was a very friendly divorce when my kids were quite little. They were five and seven, and now they're 25 and 27. And my ex-wife's still one of my close friends, and she's been remarried for over a decade

to an awesome guy who I welcome as, He's been part of my family now for many years. So I don't think it was a personal vendetta with marriage. I think it's just doing what I do for a living and looking at the numbers in an honest way. I just think we put things on marriage that don't belong to marriage. We default to marriage as a good idea when clearly it is not a good idea for many of the people who engage in it. I'm just not sure why there aren't barriers to entry. Like, we've created as a society a lot of barriers to exit.

Even with no-fault divorce, it is challenging and expensive to get divorced. Even if you don't have any property together, even if you don't have children together, it's still a couple of grand and some headache to get divorced. And at worst, it can be millions of dollars in counsel fees. So with so many barriers to exit, and any time a barrier to exit, exit is even slightly modified. Everybody goes on the right in particular, goes ballistic and is like, how are you making it so easy to get divorced? You're going to people are just going to run, which by the way, is so funny to me. Like if you're like, we have to board up the doors because if we don't, everyone's

going to leave. It's like, well, then maybe they should leave. Yeah. Yeah. Like if everyone's so miserable, like maybe this isn't a good idea gang. Right. Right. Like, because if the idea is like, well, we have to marry to procreate and we have to put like, really guys? Like, are we, the ideology of a virus? Is that what's going to be our governing principle now is that like we have to reproduce why so that they we can create offspring who can reproduce like wow that's the whole goal huh that's the whole nobility of our society that's what we're heading towards so i don't have a thing against marriage when it works i've said in the past and again i get everything i say i get pillory for us why i don't read the comments you shouldn't youtube i don't is the lowest comment denominator i don't because i just don't and i get emails

and like i just don't pay much attention to it because again my beliefs don't require that you believe them, gang. And this isn't like, I'm not an academic. Like, I'm not here, like, speculating as to, I'm, I'm down here with my nose in it. And you can sit there in your academic world or in a psychologist chair, wherever you're calling me from. Right. And say, oh, yeah, well, that's not true. Okay, maybe it's not true of your marriage. I've seen thousands of marriages end. You're like, Neil deGrasse Tyson arguing with a flat earther. And it's like, what am I doing? We're not even talking the same language, man. And the truth is, like, even when he says, some of it is speculation.

Like what I'm doing is, no, this is what's going on. Like, this is the reality of it. And listen, there's lots of reality I don't like either, but I have an honest relationship with reality. So I genuinely think that marriage, when it goes right, I have said marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not going to win. And I don't mean that there's infinitesimally small chances of you winning.

There's a pretty good chance. And by way, unlike the lottery, there's things you can do to make a marriage successfully. and a lottery is pure luck. But what I mean when I say that is, look, you got to be in it to win it, so I get it, that people buy a ticket. But why not be honest with yourself about the likelihood of this failing? And then, A, being vigilant about not having that happen, and B, having plans in place for, if it doesn't, in the form of a prenuptial agreement.

Because every marriage has a pre-up. It's either one written by the government or one written by the two people that like each other so much that they go out of eight billion people in the world, I'm picking you. So to me, I think you're better qualified these two people to make the rules that are going to govern their coupling than the future legislators. Because I've very rarely seen a problem that I go, you know, politicians definitely improve that. Yeah. Like there's no way. There's no way I would sign up to have the most fundamental truths of my life, where I live, my kids, my finances, governed by a shape-shifting legislature of whatever state I happen to be in at the time the marriage

breaks down. Are you kidding me? You're going to let that govern. So, yeah, I am not a fan of marriage in the sense that I think the way we currently do it doesn't make sense. But I think love is the greatest thing in the world, period. It's interesting, right? Because if you have a pre-nup or a post-nup that you create, you can dictate a lot of the things

that will happen in your relationship with your children with your assets, if you you don't get married, you almost, is there a way to create a legal contract that is binding that says, like, hey, we're not getting married, but we have to live in California unless we mutually agree not to you because I don't want to be 500 miles away from my kid. And we have a whole body of case law because before marriage equality, a lot of what we did were cohabitation agreements for same-sex couples. There you go. Because marriage wasn't an option. Early in my career, I was part of a group, I was a consulting attorney for Lambda Legal and I was with a group of lawyers. Some were state planning lawyers, some were real estate lawyers. And I was kind of the family lawyer of the group. And we used to go to

Episcopal churches. They would let us use their space in the state of New York, all over New York. And we used to give seminars on what same-sex couples could do since they couldn't get married. So, like, you can put your property in an LLC and you can create a partnership agreement and you can actually, like treat your coupling like it was a corporation where you each bring like, you know, Steve Jobs and Steve Woznak both did different things for Apple, but they both had, you know, ownership. You know, so we created all these interesting, like, hacks and ways to do stuff because we didn't have marriage equality. And so that was like what we did. So now, yeah, there's tons of ways. There's a long body of case law supporting people's ability to contract to whatever they want

to contract to. Like, you and I can go out tomorrow and buy a property together and say, okay, I'm investing the money and you're going to fix it up and then we're going to share in the proceeds the following way. And, you know, you can have essentially the equivalent of a pre-up in a relationship where you're not getting married. Yeah, that's, I bring this up because I think a lot of people listening are, oh, I can't do that because I'm not getting married. So I'm totally off the hook. And I want to sort of highlight that that's not the case. Yeah, no, that's not the case. I mean, you know, not marrying certainly does protect you from certain types of exposure. And most jurisdictions eradicated common law marriage are what we used to call like palimony,

which was like the alimony you pay to a person you weren't married to. Most jurisdictions have gotten rid of those concepts. So the truth is what you really want to connect with is what is it that we expect of each other. And again, it's like a business partnership in any business partnership. Like, it's an economy. Like, you would never look at your business partner and say, you know, you seem very concerned about money. Right. You're my business partner, of course. Please be more concerned about money. Why wouldn't your romantic, like, if you're moving in with someone and they said like, well, you seem very concerned about like where you're going to live. Right. Yeah. Like that's a pretty normal thing to be concerned about, you know, like I'm going to move in with you and I'm going to give up where I live. And if we break up, you're the owner of this property. So I'm going to need, because you make a lot more money than me, I'm going to need money to get myself a place. You know, I'm going to need to be able to take the furniture that I brought or if we buy furniture, like if I buy furniture for this place, does it stay here? Does it go with me?

Why not have a conversation about those things and then codify it in some way? I don't think that's unromantic. I think that it's an act of love to say to your partner, hey, I understand what you're scared of. Like, I know you trust me, but, you know, it's okay to go, but if, but if, because why wouldn't you? If somebody says, hey, I know you're a good driver, but I'm going to wear my seatbelt, you know? Like, if somebody puts on a seatbelt, I don't look at them and go, what, you think

on the bad driver? Yeah. No, you might not cause the accident. Somebody else might. That's right. Or maybe you look like you're a good driver, but you're going to get distracted somehow. Like, you're certainly not going to intentionally, I'm not putting on the seatbelt because I know you're going to intentionally drive us into a wall.

Like, that's a ridiculous thing. But you wouldn't be offended. But having any conversation, again, it's this bubble that we've created as a society that if you even dare be pragmatic when talking in matters of love, you somehow don't believe in love. And I think it's the biggest crock of bullshit that's ever been. sold to us. I think there is something, in my view, incredibly romantic about being honest with each other, about here's what I'm scared of, here's what I never want us to turn into. Here's what I worry

we would turn into and I don't want to. I'm believing in this. So because I believe in it, like, let's make each other really comfortable. Like, I kind of love when you're in a relationship and you don't have to ask for what you need. Like, that's one of the best things about it. I'm up being in a relationship is when the person anticipates your needs and tries to meet them without you having to ask like a beggar with a cup out. Like it feels nice to have somebody go like, oh, I got you there because I know you like those. Like that's what better act of love is there than that. So why not say to your partner, listen, I know you trust me. I know you love me. But you know what? I just never want you to be afraid that if we split up, you're not going to be

taken care of. Like I love you. If I love you, there's nothing you could do that would make me want you to just burn in hellfire for all of it's why i never could really even being raised catholic my whole i never could get on with the whole christianity hell thing like the god who loves us like a good father according to jesus like i'm a good father i'd like to think i'm at least a mediocre father and there's i can tell you there's nothing my kids could do that i would go well you need to be an eternal torment yeah for eternity you're going to be torment like there's nothing there's listen there's some stuff they could do that i'd be like i'm not talking to you anymore yeah sure i'm not hanging out with you anymore. Like, I'm not letting you borrow the car, you know, but there's nothing

they could do that I would go, well, hellfire for you for all of eternity. That's craziness. Like, what kind of vindictive psychopath is that? Yeah, that's an Old Testament, God. So I get it. But the truth is, like, with humans, I think there's nothing wrong. If you love me, if I love you, like, I'm not going to weaponize against you. And I'm not going to be afraid to talk about how to keep you feeling safe. We should all feel safe in our relationships. You mentioned I message before. I was his name, Tim Cook, you know, in my DMs. All of a sudden my phone's going to stop.

We're going to be like, damn it. What happened? Yeah, you're not allowed to use. I'm sorry, Tim. I have every single one of my devices is an Apple device. I want you to know my office is an Apple office. Now you're extra exposed. Social media has to be like a cheating machine.

Oh, yeah. One of the chapters in my book, because it was written in 2018, is called if we were going to invent an infidelity generating machine, it would be called Facebook. Yeah. I would change that now to say it would be. You call it Instagram. But it's a meta company, so it's the same thing. Sorry, Mark. You must see a lot of, well, this DM or, I mean, it's just got, aside from the tears in your office. Yeah, it's an invitation, aside from the algorithm feeding us, like, everything that it figures out we like in terms of visual stimulation.

Just pull up the suggested and show it to your partner. My Explorer tab, I'm like offended that it knows me so well. It knows me too well. Yeah. And when I look at it, I'm like, ooh, that is not great. But yeah, that, I mean, look, the algorithm pushes us in directions. But also. Also, again, people don't set out to ruin their lives. Well, right. Like, people don't wake up and go, you know, I'm going to screw my life up today. It just happens, right? And so I think it's a series of small bad choices.

Yeah, I was going to say. And one of the most common ones is social media gives us entry points into conversation with people that we really have no business talking privately with. Like that it's just a temptation that we're not going to be able to handle. You hang out in a barbershop long enough you're going to get a haircut. Like, you put somebody in touch with someone there. are attracted to on a regular basis, and flirtation's going to start. It's the nature of the creature that we are. So social media creates all of these opportunity points to start talking to

each other. It seems like in the 80s, and I was a kid then, so I don't really know, but it seems like in the 80s, you'd have to, as a guy, you'd have to like see one of the other soccer moms, and then you'd have to somehow go through a little bit of effort to create an opportunity when you're talking to them. And then it happens again, and there's not other people around. It happens again and again and again. And guess what? People did it. They still did it. Even then. Like, so even with all of these barriers, I mean, go back further. God gave 10 commandments, if you believe that. And two of them were don't sleep with people you're not married to. Don't commit adultery. Don't covet your neighbor's wife. Those are two separate commandments. Thou shalt not kill got one.

Only had to say that once. So this is a problem that's been around for a while. It's a human problem. I think ultimately, even when it was hard to do, people did it in abundance. So now it's so easy to cheat. I mean, you can be sitting on the couch next to your spouse talking with someone who you're trying to sleep with or actively sleeping with. And what are you doing on your phone? Like, no, whatever. What are you doing on your phone?

You could be doing anything on your phone because we do everything on our phones. Our phones are like we are wired into these things. Yeah, my wife will go, what are you doing, trolling? Troll, troll, troll, because I met her online. She's kidding, obviously. It's like a funny inside joke because I met her. on Twitter, which I don't use. And she's like, oh, yeah, you can meet women on there. It's true. That's where I met my wife. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, well, listen, it is the place where

everybody gets involved in nonsense. I have to tell you. I see that as a divorce lawyer. I have a ringside seat. I see the amount of communications and infidelities and betrayals that start with, hey, wow, it looks like you guys had a great time on that vacation. Where did you stay? Oh, wow. You know, throwback picture. I had that t-shirt. too, you know, or oh my God, I went to that concert or, you know, and it's like an entry point. And you just start chatting and, you know, we're human. I get it. But you're inviting, you know, avoid the near occasion of those things. Like when I want to lose a couple of pounds, I don't have any junk food in my house. Right. Because I can control my food environment way better than I can control my brain.

Like my brain is constantly trying to screw with me. Yeah, this is like some James Clear thing, right? 100%. You want to watch less TV? Yeah. Get rid of the TV. Get rid of the TV. Put it in a closet.

Right. Because I don't trust my brain. Tired Jim Sexton at the end of a long day is going to like want to eat and drink and like just relax and feel bad for himself and do whatever. Like I deserve it, you know, and like like that dopamine hit that you get on social media, You know, especially like I have something of a following now. So anytime I ever go on social media, you get, you know, you're so brilliant. You're so amazing.

I was on the street the other day and I was meeting some colleagues of mine for lunch. And I was standing outside of a restaurant and I'm talking on the phone. And a guy just walks past me and he kind of sees me and then he turns back around. And I'm on the phone. And he just walks up and he goes, I just want to tell you that you're awesome. And I thought to myself, no wonder my celebrity clients are such idiots. Like, because they just, random people just coming up to you and saying, you're awesome. What is that not going to do to your ego?

Like how, there's no scenario where that doesn't feel good. Well, even if the repeated, look, that happens quite a bit to anybody with online sort of presence, right? Even if it doesn't inflate your ego, the opportunity, you went from random guy on the internet to, oh, person with status. And status is like a drug, even if it's not your status. And you find yourself looking for that. hit. Yeah. Like now that I get stopped on the street and recognized anywhere I go, I find myself sometimes when I'm feeling low looking for it. Like I'll deliberately go out and sort of be, you know, wearing what I'm wearing right now, which is what I'm wearing in most videos. Let me roll my sleeves up

a little bit more so people know it's me. Because people recognize me much more readily. Sure. And you really do. And look, it's human. You're like, I get it that there's this part of you that feels sad or insecure or low or whatever. And it's a hit to have someone compliment you. And Listen, any time somebody stops me and says, oh, I'm a fan of your work, like, it's wonderful. Like, that makes me so, why else do it? It doesn't happen to a lot of divorce lawyer. Lawyers don't get a lot of fan mail. It's a lovely, beautiful thing.

I have to tell you. I used to say no lawyer gets fan mail. Now I got to change my... I get a lot of fan mail. Yeah, yeah, you get a lot of fan mail. I got a lot of fam. I got a lot of women in my DMs, and I get a lot of fan mail. But I think if you're a man with even vaguely an emotional vocabulary and maybe a full head of hair, that

that kind, but maybe you don't even need full head of hair. Scott Galloway probably gets a ton of, uh, Oh, I'm so curious. I'm going to ask him. He's got to get big time. Yeah, I'm such a fan of him. He's great. Do you see his TED talk? He did recently. Really good. I was always a fan of his work. I listened to Pivot forever until I just got to the point with with Kear Swisher. That was like, I just can't tell anymore.

That's funny. I hear that all the time. But I love Scott Galloway. Everything the guy does. And I'm an NYU alum, although I didn't go to the business school, so I didn't get the study with him. It was probably before his time. I think I was going to say he's not that old. No, he would have been like 27. Although, you know, he's jacked, though. My goodness. I mean, He's just, it's so easy to hate the guy because he's just awesome. But yeah, I mean, his viewpoint is so incredible and he really gets it right on a lot of these things. And I really do think that he must get in and dated with attention, you know, and you do get a tremendous amount of attention. The interesting thing is, is when you're in the relationship space like I am, you know, people think

you have some secret knowledge. And I don't. I really don't. Like I, I've said it before, you know, I don't know what intelligence looks like, but I can spot stupid a mile away. Like, I don't know necessarily what makes a relationship a happy relationship. I just have become an expert in what screws up relationships. And I'm hoping I can help people reverse engineer that into something better. This is your reminder to get that pre-up and to support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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over at six-minute networking.com. Now, back to James Sexton. How many people come into your office and are essentially learning about what the marriage contract entails for the very first time? 95%. Oh my God, that high.

95%. Well, listen, go to anybody who's married. Go to anybody who's married and ask them about the spouse's elective share. Ask them if they know what that is. Ask them how child support is determined in the county in which they reside or the state in which they reside. Ask them how spousal support is done. Overwhelming majority of people have absolutely no idea.

That's what I mean is that people learn. Like if you genuinely wanted to improve the state of marriage or people's relationship to it, you would probably create some barriers to entry. Like to learn out of drive, you've got to take a written test that you know how the rules of the road work. Then you have to get a learner's permit. Then you have a period of time that's unwaivable that you have to learn how to drive. Then you have to take an exam that shows you know how to do this thing. And then you're allowed to get a driver's license.

Marriage, you can meet a stripper in Vegas, and Elvis will marry you for 50 bucks 20 minutes later. I was the best man at an Elvis wedding. And I have to say, they're divorced now, surprisingly. So you see the shotgun, I guess. Yeah, it's, it wasn't even a spur of the moment decision. But still an Elvis wedding. Anyway, well, I digress. The reality is that I think most people who get married never educate themselves.

I think in a perfect world, every person as part of getting a marriage license would have to spend an hour with a divorce lawyer. Make them take like, when's the last time you renewed your driver's license? That test was harder than I remember. Yeah. You can change states. Yeah. My dad was like, I don't think I can pass this test because you took the online version and

I was like, hey, that might be an indication that you should no longer be driving. I part time, when I first got out of graduate school, when we got my master's degree at NYU before I went to law school, I was teaching at NYU and I was teaching a couple other colleges part time just to make ends meet. I got $400 a credit. So that's how abysmally bad that market was. But it was a lot of money to me at the time. I'd been a waiter. And one of the things that I used to do with my students, you'd never be able to do this now. It would be considered like a hate crime. But I used to, because I taught courses in like culture and communication. And I used to make my students take the citizenship exam.

For the United States? For the United States. They were all U.S. citizens by birth. You know, it's so hard. I tried it. They were born in the United States. They were naturalized citizens. They never had to take citizenship exam.

The answers that I would get from students of like, what are the three branches of the government? And they would be like Democrat, Republican, conservative. Oh, that's pretty bad. Like, I mean, you would look at it and just go, okay, but it's true, like we have taken for granted what we're supposed to know, what it's assumed we know. Like, it's assumed that the driver's test that you took whatever many years ago, that you remember at a four-way stop what the order of

who gets to go is. I don't think that's true. Based on what I've seen in terms of driving, I don't think most people remember this stuff. Similarly, I don't think most people remember basic civics, and I don't think most people remember anything they learned in driver's ed or anything they learned in basic civics. Like, I think if you gave most people the citizenship exam, they would fail. We don't deport people for failing the citizenship exam if you're already a citizen. But I have to tell you, your vote equals mine. And if you don't know the three branches of the United States government, why do you get to vote? Oh, it's funny. You bring this up, man. There's a, I won't say them out loud, but there's always this get everyone, get the vote out.

And I always pass on the campaign of my sales team. It's like, why are you passing on this easy money? And the reason is because I don't think everybody should just go vote. In fact, I would rather that if you have no idea, and if you're one of those people who's like, oh, I like this guy's last name, it's really easy to remember. If that's how you vote, I beg you not to vote. An educated citizenry is the cornerstone of democracy. And the problem is, for all of time, for all of time, people were like, I would vote for him, he seems like the kind of person he'd like to have a beer with. And people have been saying that

since Alexander Hamilton's days. I mean, this is like a thing is that, oh, yeah, he seems like a good dude, you know? And there's something to that. Like, there's something to charisma, you know, like, I won't say that his charm had nothing to do with me voting for Obama. Like, he was incredibly charming. He was incredibly. He seemed like a dude you'd want to hang out with. And he seems like a guy, if you hung out with him, he'd be fun to hang out with. Sure. You know, and he and Michelle, like, there's a vibe there. Like, the two of them, like, the two of them, look like, like, they're still at it, you know? Like, that's, and I got to tell you, I love when I see married people that've been married for a while, and they still look like, if you walk them past

a broom closet, they might just jump in there and have sex. I love, I'm like, you know what, sign up, sign up for that. Sign up for that coupling. That's awesome. This is why you have those YouTube comments. Stuff like this. It brings out a lot of feelings in people. Yeah, I know. People, it brings out a lot of. The people who didn't turn it off because they're like, he voted for Obama. I thought it was smart until then. Slam the door shut. I guess I get that a lot. Yeah, I said something about Trump the other day about a pre-up that one of his marriages had been challenged, the pre-up he had with Ivanka. I remember somebody wrote this thing about it. He was doing well until he started slagging Donald Trump. And I was like, guys, I'm not political. Like this was not, I wasn't making funny of him. I was making fun of, you know, I was talking about his pre-up. And I was talking about, you know, how he like any man did not see this blind spot in a pre-up. And yeah, it's very charged times. People are just way. It's the joy of the Internet is people are just dying. to pillory you for something you said. I mean, it's almost like a sport.

Doing what I do for a living, though, I don't really let the praise in, and I don't really let the criticism. It doesn't mean anything. I just keep doing my thing. Like, doing what I do for a living, one side of the equation usually hates me. So there's a lot of people out there that just hate me, and I'm really comfortable with that. Like, it's fine.

Being polarizing is not something I do as a strategy, but it's something that's a natural result of, well, my personality and the fact that I have a public, a microphone in front of me at any given time. But it's interesting about not letting the praise in and not let you almost, it would be amazing if you could only let the praise in, but then the criticism you could keep at bay unless it was constructive. It would be dangerous. But it's very hard to do and it's, you're right. It's not safe. Yeah, I think it'd be dangerous to do. Because I think that you'd get high on your own supply. Like, I think you would just very quickly spiral into a hubris. Whenever anybody says something, you know, like, oh, you're good at this or you're great at this.

I always go, yeah, opinions vary. Like, and it's true. Opinions vary. Like, I don't know that I'm right, I never thought the things I have to say would reach the audience that they've reached. You know, when I think of the fact that at this point, tens of millions of people have spent several hours listening to me, that's shocking. And they want more. Well, some of them anyway. A lot of them still want more. And that's very, very interesting to me. I feel very grateful for it. I feel very blessed to have had the opportunity to do it. But I never really did it for the, you know, not to overquote Rick and Morty, but there's a scene where Rick says, because your booze mean nothing to me.

I've seen what you cheer for. And I sort of feel like that's the reality. Like, if you want to conduct the orchestra, you've got to turn your back to the audience. And so I don't really say anything I say for the clicks, for the likes, to have people who should have a podcast, you should have a show, you should have this,

you should have that. And it's never been for that purpose. I have a very specific set of things I'm qualified to talk about. I get sometimes from people saying, oh, you repeated this perspective on this podcast and this podcast. You got good sound bites. That's okay. Yeah, well, the truth is, is I'm not a stand-up comic who has, like, a set, and then I'm going to burn that set, and I'm going to write a whole new set. I'm a lawyer. I'm a divorce lawyer. I try to give the most accurate and efficient answer in the most interesting, entertaining, or digestible manner, ideally all three. So, yeah, once I get it right, I'm not going to just change it. So I have new material for the public. And you shouldn't. And that's why I've really cut back a lot even on how much.

I do appearance-wise because I feel like I've said a lot of the things I needed to say or wanted to say. I've reached a very broad audience. I'm working on a new book now that, you know, gets into different terrain, which I think will be an interesting thing to have conversations about. Sure. But until then, you know, I certainly am always very excited. Like this interview I was excited for because I know your work and you tend to dive a little deeper as you already have in this conversation than just the surface level. If I do one more, so a divorce lawyer writing books about relationships, how did that come about? Why don't you listen to one of 50 podcasts that been on my answer to that question? What are your top three tips of how to maintain it? If I get one more

top three, anybody wants life to be a buzzfeed. What are three things people can do to divorce proof their man? I wrote a whole book on this, man, which I didn't read in preparation for this. Okay, but you know what? I love the honesty of it. Love the honesty of that. If someone just said that to me, If someone just went, yeah, I never read your book. I never watched any other interviews. My intern wrote these questions and I'm going to ask all of them in the same way. You know why? And even that, there's an honesty to it. Like, I just don't, like, the most dangerous thing a person can do is believe their own bullshit.

Oh, yeah. And so to me, like, yeah, you give a lazy interview. I'm going to give you lazy answers. And they're not necessarily even lazy. I'm just going to answer the way I always answer. You know how many times I have to tell people the same things in 25 years as a divorce lawyer? Do you know how many times I have to explain alimony? How many times I've had to explain child?

support, how many times I've had to explain every aspect of divorce. And I want to do it. Sure. And my clients deserve that I do it in a way that's interested and interesting and engaged. And like, because they pay for that. I was going to say, at least you can bill in six minute. Yeah, I don't sit there and go, child support is based on a presumptive statutory cap of your gross income less FICA, which is 0.0765 from whatever the gross income is. And child's poor for one child's 17 percent, two children's 25 percent. If your lawyer talked to you that way, like, I've had a actually thought about like, okay, why don't I do the speech and then just like put them in a room, be like, here, watch this video and then I'll be back. Like a job training. When your teacher had a

hangover back in the day. Yeah, exactly right. But look, you're paying me 750 bucks an hour. You're going to get the steak and the sizzle. So I'm going to do the thing. So I can give the same opinion or the same speech and make it compelling and make it interesting. You know, that's part of the job of being a trial lawyer. Yeah, let's roll up those sleeves and shut the door. That's what you do. That's right. What are some trends that you see, and speaking of crappy questions, this will start as a crappy question, but it'll be a real one. What are some trends that you see in marriage? Because it looks like we're actually, from the outside in, getting kind of more conservative than marriage has been in the past, or than social mores have been in the past. But it could be an illusion

based on my age. I don't know. Yeah. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the last couple of years. People are getting married older than they used to. Well, that's, yeah, for sure. That's a fact. These are numbers. People are getting married later. They're having children later. People are definitely exponentially getting pre-ups way more than they used to. Interesting. There is no way to track this because pre-ups are not filed anywhere. They're a private document. And as someone who's represented a number of celebrities and sports figures, I can tell you,

I have seen interviews with my client who I've done a pre-up for, where they are saying, oh, yeah, we're not having a pre-up. And I'm watching them going, that's interesting. I have their pre-up in my safe signed, you know? Wow. Well, because it's not recorded anywhere. It's not romantic, so they know you can get away. By the way, and interviewers have no right really to ask people if they have a pre-nup or not.

I guess you're a public figure. People can ask whatever question you want, but you have the right to lie to people if they ask you an inappropriate question, I guess. That's true. But I think it sets the wrong example, which is we put up on Instagram, us picking the cake and us picking the venue and us picking what wine we're going to serve, and us picking the dress and the shoes and everything else. People don't advertise the fact they had a pre-up.

But for whatever reason, I have to say in the last five years, I would say 3x, 4x in terms of prenupt. Part of it is that I've come to be known as someone who does prenups. So I do a lot of talking about prenups. So I have a lot of people now that say I probably do three consults a week for prenups. And I get retained by most of the people who consult with me about a prenupt. So I do a lot of prenupt. But among my colleagues, like I'm part of all the professional organizations here,

State Bar Association, all the different family law division. and family law committees. And we all are saying the same thing, which is, yeah, like young, the people in their 20s and 30s, which is the prime marriage ages, they're getting pre-ups. They're approaching things much more pragmatically. I see it in my own sons. There's a, there's a pragmatism and a realism. And there's also a radical kind of candor where, you know, people are talking more openly about gender issues, sexual orientation, therapy and mental health stuff, we're talking more candidly and honestly about the things we struggle with. And I think that's translating into a broader openness about the technology of marriage and the concerns that

younger people are having about it. And so I think that's kind of good. I think that's a really good thing. I think that the more people are talking about prenups, normalizing, like it took a while to normalize therapy. Okay, we should be normalizing prenups. Like, there's nothing wrong with normalizing pre-ups. And again, the best way to do it as far as I can tell is to just point out to everybody that either the government rights your pre-nup or you write your pre-nup. Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it because most people would then at that point, I would think, not allow the government default to come into place. It's like having a will. Well, when I was on Matt Walsh's show on The Daily Wire, Matt and I disagree on a lot of things, you know,

from a political place. And we met by getting in like a little hustle with each other on Twitter, which I'm no longer on, but which at the time I was still on. It was before I realized what a just unbelievable cesspool of anger it is. But the truth is, I think Matt's very entertaining. I think he's very intelligent. We have different perspectives on a lot of things, but it's rooted in us having some fundamental different beliefs. But we had to sit down at his studio in Tennessee, which, by the way, I have to say his staff and everyone in that operation, Daily Wire was the nicest, most courteous professional people I think I've ever dealt with. They were a pleasure. And he was an absolute pleasure to talk to. And even though we disagree on a bunch of things, our dialogue about marriage,

which he is a huge fan of. I mean, he's married, he's got six kids. He's very much of the like, yeah, we got married, we don't have a pre-up. But we had so much commonality in our perspectives because we're both skeptical of the government and we're both skeptical of government control and we're both pessimistic about government's ability to manage our affairs better than the individual. Yeah. So we had a lot of common ground. from this sort of libertarian vibe that we both had, even though I'm more of a progressive liberal, he's a staunch religious conservative. But we have this commonality of like, listen, I don't know the solution or we might differ on the solution, but we both agree, whatever the solution is,

the government ain't going to be the one to solve it. So we should go in with this pragmatic approach. I think this is something that on both sides of the aisle, people are saying, okay, yeah, There's something wrong with the way we do marriage, and there's something wrong with just jumping without a parachute. I think a lot of people, when I was doing a criminal defense just in law school clinic stuff, people would say, how do you protect somebody that you know is guilty? And I'm sure you get some flavor for that. I get a lot of that. Yeah, how do you represent a perpetrator of domestic violence? Yeah, that's an interesting take.

Because I represent so many victims of an intimate partner abuse, coercive control, and domestic violence. how do you represent a perpetrator of domestic violence, intimate partner abuse, coercive control? Or, you know, how do you just eviscerate somebody on cross-examination and you're like, this is probably a nice person? Yeah, I can answer that. Oh, no, that happens all the time. Yeah. I mean, part of it is that I grew up a fighter and I still trained martial arts to this day. So some of my best friends have punched me in the face, choked me, and tried to break my limbs.

And I've tried to do the same thing to them. So I grew up in the fight sport. So I don't have to hate you or be angry at you. you. In fact, some of my best friends, we try to kill each other all day. That's the mindset I came from. But the way I've always answered that question, and it's a truthful answer, is it's not always easy, but I represent the client and I represent the system. And I don't always believe in the client. I don't always feel great about the client, but I believe in the system. Like, I believe that my role in the machinery of our system is an important one. I believe in democracy. I believe in

our legal system. I don't think it's perfect. It has flaws. But it's like the economy. Like it's, we have the worst one except for all the other ones. Like I think, I think we do a pretty good job of due process. I really like that we err on the side of letting a guilty person go free rather than an innocent person go to jail. So I like our burdens of proof. I like due process. I like the right to confrontation. And so if you believe in the system, you have to be willing to do your part in the system. And I can do that. I'm very comfortable. I have people that I like very much that my job is to take them apart piece by piece in a divorce. And I will do it without hesitation, dispassionately, with no malice in my heart. It's my job. Did your ex take everything and leave you destitute?

Consol yourself with something from the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And if you can't remember the name of a sponsor or can't find the code, go ahead and shoot us a message. I'm Jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I am more than happy to surface that code for you. My team will do that for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with James Sexton.

It's got to be tough when you're getting an emotional reaction from, because like, look, if you go up against me and I'm a fellow divorce lawyer, this is just us playing chess. We could have lunch right afterwards. It doesn't really matter as long as we're not talking about the case, or even if we are, I suppose. But if there's a woman up there or a guy and he's crying because his wife is, he knows his wife is planning to abscond with their children. And you're just dismantling this dude. There's got to be a little bit of, it's personal for them. It's not personal for you. How do you compartmentalize that or do you? I've never had an issue with it because, again, I believe in the system. I understand my role in it. I believe that our emotion clouds are judgment and our ability to do what is necessary. I mean, there's a line from the first season of True Detective where he says, do you ever worry that you're a bad man? And he says, the world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door.

And that's how I view it. I view it like, you know, yeah, I'm a weapon. And that's what I chose to do, and that's what I'm really good at. I don't know why that is. I don't know why I was built that way, but that's how I'm built. I think I might be built different than a lot of people, but I can do that. I can dispassionately dismantle in that way. And I think the world needs that.

There's a line from Rhesus Sardonicus I always really liked to the point where I memorized it. He said, I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to accomplish certain strategic objectives for people whose suffering is greater than my need to maintain moral purity. That's quite a feat of memory. And that's how I view it. I think that my need to maintain moral purity is subservient to the ability I have to relieve suffering.

I have more clients that are victims of domestic violence than perpetrators, thankfully. I have more clients that need someone like me. Most often a good-hearted, nice person finds themselves up against someone who's their opposite. So their opposite is a narcissistic abuser. And you need someone who can dispassionately go in and take that person on. You know, Cormick McCarthy said there are two things that'll make a man confess his sins. God and pain. And not everyone believes in God, but everyone believes in pain.

So sometimes my job is to inflict pain. Emotional pain, financial pain, create and cultivate leverage and then use it. That's my job. And my job most often, thankfully, is to do that for someone who there is some moral ground behind it. But have I in my career had occasion where I've been weaponized against what probably was a really good person? Yes. Is that hard to do? It's not hard to do.

Is it hard emotionally to process it? Yeah, it is. But you know, the truth has a way of coming out, sometimes despite my best efforts. Like, I lose sometimes. I lose because our system, our system gets the truth out there. Like, people have to answer for things. I like the court system. I don't like the fact that people in the world right now, we live in a post-truth era. And everybody gets up and can say whatever they want about, oh, this is what this does and this is what that does. And there's no way to fact-check anything. And nothing's tethered to objective reality. So I like court, because you got to shut up, everybody's got to shut up and answer. You have to answer. I like the right to confrontation.

I love cross-examination because my out is, no, no, no, you said it. You said it. I always keep my children's best interests at heart. Okay, I'm going to show you 15 examples of places you didn't do that. And you're going to have to answer for it. And to me, I like that. I think that's fair. I think I want to live in a world where that's how things are done. I love that. I'm wondering if you ever won a case, you just thought, I shouldn't have won that. Yeah. Yeah, there's a chapter book actually about that. I talk about representing a, he was actually a pimp. That's what he did for a living. He was a pimp. He was a perpetrator of domestic violence and I won because my adversary in court was a very inexperienced lawyer and it was a perfect storm and the judge was in a very bad mood.

And the judge, this lawyer who was a brand new lawyer at the time, who has since actually, I've followed their career and had cases with them who since become one of the best lawyers I know, but was a real neophyte. It might have even been their first trial, and they couldn't get a photograph into evidence. They couldn't lay the proper foundation. And the judge, who should have stepped in and been helpful, was just in a mood and was not letting the photograph. It was just like, yep, you can't lay the foundation, I'm not letting it in. And I was doing my job. I was objecting and doing the things I was supposed to do.

And I remember just being in there going, this is not good. This is not right. The wrong thing's going to happen. And we walked out of court. We won. And the guy smacked me on the back. And he said, on there, forget it. He said, one good lawyer is better than 20 stick up men.

And I remember I went home that night, and I just felt very bad. That's a long hot shower. Here's what I'll tell you. And I've said this before. I'm not giving anything away. When I recorded the audio book, my publisher, Henry Holt, McMillan, they said, well, we want you to read your own audio book. So it's like eight and a half hours of my voice. They put you in a booth and you have to read your entire book out loud.

And you do it in pieces. And when I got to that chapter, I had to stop a couple of times because I got choked up. I talk about in the chapter, it was like, no, like, I'm supposed, you're supposed to stop me. Like, you're supposed to stop me. Like, what are you doing? Like, I'm winning. I shouldn't be winning. Like, the truth is not going to come out here.

And that was very hard for me because I believe in the system. And it's supposed to work. And sometimes it doesn't because of humans that are in it. And so that was hard. But I did my job. I know I did the right thing because I believe in the system, and I think if I threw the game, then it starts to ask questions of, well, when do you throw the game? When do you have the right to throw the game? And I don't think that's the way to do it. Well, everybody, what do they tell us in law school? Everybody deserves a zealous advocacy. Everyone has the right. Everyone has the right. Everyone has the right. Everyone has the right thousand texts in photos in that thread of you guys on IMessage. What if you know that's like, all right, they got photos of you with her. With the paramour. There's 8,000 texts in photos in that thread of you guys on vacate planning to go with. Like, do you have to go full M&M strategy where you're like...

Eight Miles strategy? Eight Mile strategy. We call it the eight-mile strategy. You call it, okay. We call it the eight-mile strategy. Yeah, you do the eight-mile strategy. I mean, that's our favorite thing is the eight-mile strategy. You bring it out, you bring it out as part of your narrative first.

So I tell them all the things that the guy's about to say about me and then I hand the mic to the other side. So I do that last rap battle of eight-mile where, yeah, you just lay out all the worst things about your case and you just own them, you present the counter narrative to them before the other side can do it. You watch the opposing counsel crossing out pages and pages. I was just going to say, isn't that a good feeling when you see a opposing counsel go, they sigh and they just, they, and you watch them just cross out pages of cross-examination. They flip the legal pad over again and again. It really is. I'm telling it's the last scene in eight mile because I remember the first time I saw that movie. I saw it in the theaters.

And I remember watching that rap battle and being like, oh my God, how are. are they going to end this thing? Because you know he's got to win, but how's he going to win? And just the feeling of like, here, tell these people something they don't know about me and handing him the mic. And you just go, that is the most brilliant thing in the world. And I have to tell you, like, I've seen on the witness stand again and again when a client talks about their humanity and talks about their flaws and they admit when they lost their temper, when they said something stupid or did something stupid, there ain't a person in that courtroom that can cast the first stone. Like everybody in that courtroom looks and goes, yeah, like, he probably, I've probably done dumb things too.

Yeah. Just didn't get caught or maybe did. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of value in taking that approach to things. Yeah. You've got a great mindfulness exercise that I love. And I am not Mr. Mindfulness. I am not that guy. I just, I feel like there's a lot of hype around this stuff. But there's a core of really good stuff in there. This one I love. Tell me about this. This is the Ticknod Han one about hugging someone. Yes. That is it. So Ticknodhan was a Vietnamese Buddhist monkey passed away some years ago, but he wrote a number of really beautiful books about mindfulness and awareness and the nature of life and suffering. They're very simple books, much like Sherry Huber is another Buddhist writer. And this is actually my next book is about exactly this concept. But essentially what Ticknod Han was encouraged people to do is when you are hugging someone who is in your life who you love, whether it's your spouse or your child or your dog. or cat or your cousin or your friend who you haven't seen, you should close your eyes and hug them and think about the fact that they're there and you're hugging them. And then for a moment, you should think about that they've died.

You should imagine that they've died and that you're holding their body, hugging their body for the last time before you let go and it's taken away. And then you should remember that they're there and they're alive and you're hugging. And if you can train yourself to do that, some people think that's a morbid exercise, I don't think it is. I think we are most keenly aware of the beauty of life when we're in the presence of death, when we realize that love and life are not permanently gifted but are loaned to us. And so I'm a big proponent of that mindfulness exercise. I'm a big proponent of being mindful of ending.

because when you are mindful of endings, you are very much aware of the impermanence of things, how everything is leading to some inevitable conclusion. All marriages end. Your marriage will end. I promise. Your marriage will end. It will end in death or it will end in divorce,

but it will end. I hope it ends in death. Yeah. Doesn't that sound weird to say out loud? But I hope it does. I hope I go first. I hope it ends in no. I hope you both go simultaneously.

Oh, yeah. Sure. And in painless way. That's right. Holding hands. Exactly right. But the truth is, when we remind ourselves that all marriages end, that everything ends, we're much more conscious of the value and beauty of the thing that's in front of us. And so I am a big, as a divorce lawyer, I have made my day-to-day living in endings. And before that, I was a hospice volunteer for many years. And so I spent a lot of time in the presence of death. And I can tell you when you spend time in the presence of death, you walk out. of a hospice visit, just so grateful, just so grateful that you're alive, you're not dying, that's not your father or mother or brother or you on that bed. You're so, you're not worried

about what your stock markets do, and you're not worried about some minor, you know, somebody cut you off in traffic. Like you just, the volume has turned so far down on that stuff. I think it's the same thing. As a divorce lawyer, all I do is watch things end. And it makes me not a pessimist. Like it makes me not think, oh, well, it's all doomed. It makes me so grateful that there's love

and that people somehow manage to keep it together and want it so badly. And I think that bringing into your vocabulary a mindfulness about endings can make your life much, much better and stronger.

And that's where really the focus of my work and my writing now is moving. Jim Sexton, thank you very much. Pleasure. It was great to be here, Jordan. I appreciate you having me. Here's a trailer of an episode I think you might enjoy.

Do you have another one of those Coke Zero? That looks really good. Is it cold? Yeah, it is. It's super cold. It's ice cold and somebody will maybe get me in another one maybe. Kind of sorry? I don't mean to turn you into a server, but yeah. Thank you very much, everyone, for bringing that Coke in. Isn't that nice? I never have that. You probably have that all the time. It's so rare that I get to be like, excuse me, can you know? How did that feel?

I felt so good. It good in a way where I'm like, God, don't get used to this for you. I know that you microdose weed. You're the only other person I met besides myself that does that. You're in charge of your mood. So when you take something like that, it's a mood lifter. It's like an enhancer. You know, it makes, for me, it makes everything a little bit more sparkly.

It makes everybody a little bit less annoying. And these are all things we want to all be able to engage with. Got a DUI when I was like 21, and I got in a lot of trouble because I had my sister's ID. And I forgot to change it out when I turned. in 21 because I'd been using it for so many years. So that caused a whole ruckus of other events because my sister was really pissed at me. I had to go to DUI school and in DUI class, you go for like what 15 weeks and everybody gets up and tells their story and I had such a fear of public speaking. You did? I did. Wow. Anyway, they forced you to do it in that class. And when I did it, I started telling my story

and all I did was tell what happened. And it was ridiculous. Like everything I do was always just in a very immature. You know, I called the coper racist. We were both white. I mean, everything that, you know, it didn't make sense I did. The class was just, like, laughing, and I was on stage for, like, 14, 15 minutes until the guy was like, no, this is not stand up. Get off the stage. Like, you got your, you're enjoying this a little bit too much. And that's when I was like, wait a second.

I like this. For more with the incomparable Chelsea Handler, check out episode 216 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Who, what an episode. Like I said at the top of, of part one, this episode really made me realize how much I love my wife and how fortunate I am. I guess I shouldn't let my guard down, though, from the sound of it. Some of the stories off camera were honestly worthy of another episode entirely. We have to have James back at some point.

There's just a whole lot here. And I got through like half my notes. This guy is a fountain. All things James Sexton will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com.com. Advertisers, deals, and discount codes, ways to support the show. All at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. The idea behind this is to give you something specific, practical, something that's going to have an immediate impact on your decisions, your relationships, your psychology in under two minutes a week every Wednesday.

So if you're not signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six-minute networking as well. That's over at six-minute networking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. in, and this show is created an association with podcast one.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those who care about. So if you know somebody who's thinking about getting married, thinking about getting divorced, wants a little bit of insight into this type of thing, I would definitely share this episode with him or somebody who just loves a good conversation. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

We'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way.

Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much, what other people, think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.