The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1039: Tareena Shakil | An ISIS Recruit's Journey and Escape Part One

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

How does ISIS radicalize Westerners? Here, Tareena Shakil, who joined and escaped the group, reveals the manipulation behind her own recruitment. [Pt. 1/2] What We Discuss: Tareena Shakil, a British woman, traveled to Syria with her young son and joined ISIS in 2014 at age 24 after being groomed online for about six weeks. Tareena's decision to join ISIS was influenced by a combination of factors, including online radicalization, a desire to escape an abusive relationship, and a misguided attempt at religious devotion. While in Syria, Tareena quickly realized she had made a mistake and wanted to leave. She witnessed disturbing events and became increasingly fearful for her and her son's safety. After about eight weeks, Tareena managed to escape ISIS-controlled territory with her son and return to the UK, where she was subsequently arrested and became the first British woman jailed for joining ISIS. Tareena's story highlights the importance of critical thinking, especially when it comes to online interactions and major life decisions. Her experience serves as a powerful reminder to thoroughly research and question information from unfamiliar sources, seek diverse perspectives, and consult trusted friends or family members before making life-altering choices based on online interactions. And much more — be sure to tune in to part two of this conversation later this week! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1039 If you love listening to this show as much as we love making it, would you please peruse and reply to our Membership Survey here? And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. As mad as this sounds, there will probably be loads of things that I say that sound mad. When I was in Syria, my God, war zone, but only the best Muslims make it here. Yes, brilliant. I mean, the grooming process took like six weeks. It wasn't long at all. But at the same time, my God, what have I done? Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger.

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Today on the show, Tarina Shaquille became the first British woman to be jailed for joining ISIS. What an honor, hey? I got to admit, I went into this just expecting to talk to the dumbest person alive. And honestly, I didn't really get that vibe from her. she was strangely relatable, candid, very open. Again, you know, I found it surprising. It's really easy to hate on somebody like this and say this is a total idiot who's absolutely brain dead.

She was just not what I expected at all. And her accent is great. I've heard Brits hate the Birmingham accent, though. I found it a little bit charming and endearing. Well, I found her story slightly more sympathetic than I thought, and don't get me wrong. I think we're all on the same page that this was one of the dumbest things you could do, and the way she did it was even dumber. But again, I beg you to go in.

into this one with an open mind and see if you can put yourself even one foot, even one little toesy in her shoes back at that age. And yeah, you might have a slightly different opinion coming out than he did going in. Here we go with Tarina Shaquille. So you ran away from your life in the UK and you joined ISIS. London traffic is bad, but what was so horrible that you'd run off and join ISIS is what I mean. Now, I know, I guess, looking back, that you've got a real big point there, I think the main thing to point out is that at the time when the grooming, because I was groomed on the internet, I didn't just wake up one day and decide I'm going to go and live there. I don't think anybody would do that. There is a process of grooming and a lot of people that are over there now or have been there went through that process. With regards to grooming, not just anybody can be like maybe it wouldn't work on you. The person has to be quite vulnerable, maybe, let's hope. And I had been going through and was going through really bad domestic violence at the time. And my marriage was breaking down. It was on. It was off. It was, I was just really, really in a bad place.

My ex-husband had gone, like, on holiday to his home country. Yeah, let's actually back up a little bit, because I would like to unpack some of this, and I don't want to put the cart before the horse. I don't know if people say that here. Tell me about growing up, because it seems like you had a fairly normal spice girls infused childhood. Yeah, so growing up, we had normal childhood. They were, like, probably bickering's in the house.

Nothing majorly out of the ordinary. I had a really normal upbringing, loving the spice girls. I am from a Muslim family, but we were not raised strict at all. So yeah, I guess my upbringing was just normal with whatever normal means. Yeah, absolutely. Muslim kind of thing. Like you didn't have your hair covered and all that. No, no, no, none of that.

I'm not from a family that really am. I don't think imposes is the right word, but that would be my choice. No one would ever suggest it from the family if that makes sense. Sure, yeah. So we were pretty free, actually, the way we were raised. And I'm from a mixed background as well. So half of my family are Christian, half of them are Muslim. So my mom is a revert to Islam.

She wasn't always a Muslim. I think that's another reason why we were raised. So I don't know, in a different kind of way, really. My mom, she's a revert and half of my family are Christian. So I think that's the reason for home. I get it. I get it. We're Christmas tree Jews.

Yeah, well. Oh, really? It's like, hey, you're Jewish, I guess. What are you doing for Christmas? Dude, you said you were Jewish. I don't really even know what that means. You know, like ethnically this, but Christmas tree, it's cheaper, it's easier. It's one day.

We always used to have a Christmas tree as well. That's a new one. That's new one. So you get married, but this guy is not the same type of background, I'm guessing. It's not that he was strict Muslim either. He was just, he had problems with addictions. He was incredibly violent and our problems were around that. So when I met him, I was at university studying to be a doctor. Like I had great ambitions, intelligent girl. There's nothing I couldn't do. Springing my step, all of them kind of things. Met this man and that's just when it all went downhill really because we were the polar opposites. I had thirst for life. I want to be a doctor. I want

to travel the world. I want to do all of that where he's like fighting addiction and he's, it wasn't as bad when we first met each other like drinking and then it just got really, really worse. It got worse as your relationship progressed. We were just polar opposites, but I was quite younger than him. I think when I met him I was like 20. He was like 28, 29. So it is quite a big age gap when you think just fresh from being a teenager, he's pushing 30. So it's, I know that's still young, but, you know, mentally. But if you think about it, he was eight years older than you. And eight years before that age at that time, you would have been 12.

Yeah, so a child really, yeah. Right. It's a little, yeah. And I don't know. I think I was maybe a bit of mature back then or, you know. Everyone's immature at 20. I'll side with you on that one. So we were really different in that sense.

And I ended up dropping out of uni because I just couldn't do it with the violence that I was going through because if you think about it, training to be a doctor, it's hard work. It requires attention, focused dedication. And, you know, when you've been up all night, fighting and like, you just don't want to be, I couldn't focus. So I dropped out of university. And then my life became just staying in the house, doing nothing. And when I say nothing, I mean, I had no life. I had no friends.

I wasn't allowed friends. At one point, I didn't even have a phone because I wasn't allowed a phone. Yeah, I used to go to the phone box opposite where we lived to ring my mom. It got really, really. Like a pay phone where you put a card in? Well, it was money at the time. I don't think they worked like that in England anymore. I haven't even seen a pay phone in the United States, a working one, I should say, for like a decade.

I didn't know if they work in England, but back then they did. I would sporadically ring my mom like every few days. And I remember speaking to my mom and she was like, Terena, I'm really worried about you. I watched the news and they found a woman dead in the flat in Birmingham and she was like, I thought it was you. I was just waiting to hear for your call. So things got really bad. That's just to give you an idea of how bad things were. That's when your mom is wondering if you're the dead girl who turned up, that's, I'm surprised they didn't come and

get you. Well, right, my dad would have, but we had kept a lot of things away from my dad. I was all heart in for this man. I would have died for this man. I loved him so much. I was obsessed with him. I don't know why. I cannot think now being out of that circle all these years later, having gone through everything. I can't think of why I was besotted with him smitten. What a good word. Absolutely, yeah. So that's what led to my downfall, really. That's what led to the destruction was the way that I loved him really. Yeah. Look, I think a lot of people who've been victims of violence, domestic violence, can probably relate to that. It's almost like cult vibes. Like there's brainwashing involved because people who are in their right mind at the time, don't stick around when somebody

beats them up when they get home drunk after work or whatever the situation is. Nobody sticks around for that unless there's coercive stuff going on. So you dropped out of university, but also you started, I don't want to say you became more Muslim because that's not really the case. He enforced more conservative ways of life on you? Is that a good way to put it? Yes, I guess that would be fair to say. So pre-marriage, I didn't wear hijab, which is the headscarf, the Muslim headscarf that we would wear, that we should wear. That was, he didn't force me, but he was like, we're married now.

You're a married woman. You should probably cover your hair. So I did. You know, there will have been a part of me that wanted to as well, but it was more because I was married, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, yeah, I started covering my head. It wasn't that I started focusing more on the religion at that point. That happened a year or two.

later. I just used to probably dress like that. And the rules that he had on me, I couldn't go with my friends or I couldn't just hang out or anything like that. So it was, and that's not necessarily an Islamic thing, but it was. It's a possessive guy thing. A possessive guy thing. And that's where we were, really. That's how my life changed when I married him. It's safe to say you were fighting all the time with this guy as well. Yeah. Oh my God. Every day. Every day. I didn't work for a while because I was never allowed to. But I was depressed. pressed in that house. No phone, no friends, nothing that I could do. And I remember once just thinking, right, I'm going to get a job because this is not me. I'm ambitious. I'm intelligent.

I need to be doing something. So I just said to him one day, I was like, look, I'm going to look for a job. And he was like, whatever. Found a job as a rehabilitation support worker for people who've got acquired brain injuries. Brilliant. I could have progressed majorly. I could have gone on to be a mental health nurse. I couldn't keep the job. I went to work with a black eye. I went to work with my arm, cut open, gashed. Like, they had to, like, wrap my arm up. And one day, the owner, she called me and she was like, Toreena, I can imagine what's going on. I just want you to know that we're here for you and it's not right. And, you know, she tried to do the motherly thing and trying to help me out. But, you know, I never left. I just, I couldn't continue in that job.

It's a very demanding job that people are not well. They've got acquired brain injuries. I'm turning up every day with a thick lip. It's not fair on them either to see me like that. So I just said, Look, I physically can't do it. I mentally can't do it. I was driving to work. And the police would be ringing me because the neighbors have rang them saying, where are you, Miss Shaquil? We've arrested your husband.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm just on the way to work. You know, leading kind of Brie Vander Camp kind of double life kind of thing. Oh, I'm just parking up to go into work right now, but I don't want to. Oh, but when you finish work, you need to come and give a statement. I was at war in my head. I couldn't. So I left that job as well. That's a crazy way to live.

Like your life is insane at this point. You have your facade of normalcy. And underneath that, you're going to the police station to give a statement about your husband having beat you up the night before. That's crazy to hear. I was pretty much living a double life in front of family. I never wanted them to know like what was going on, especially my dad because my dad would have killed the guy. He would have done whatever he had to do, right? So there's, yes, I'm okay, yes.

But why haven't you got a phone? Oh, I just don't want a phone. Oh, you've lost a lot of weight. Are you sure you're not anorexic? No, I'm fine. I just don't eat for three days because I can't because I'm sick. I can't say that to them. So I think the pressure just got too much to me.

I couldn't work. I just became a hermit. The best place for me was at home, wasting away in that moment. And in 2014, correct me if I get my timeline wrong. It seems like the marriage, does it end in 2014? Or he just decides he's going to Yemen for some reason? So basically, I had a child, right, with him. And I remember saying before I gave birth, look, I'm not putting up with this anymore.

I'm not putting a child through that. You will be gone. It's not going to happen. I'm not going to do that when I drink. I was in a homeless hostel when I was pregnant because he had attacked me whilst pregnant. It was wild. Dangerous. It was very dangerous.

So I went to a homeless hostel. They found me a house to live. You know, like pressure from like his mom and everything like that. Oh, come on, you know, you can have a child. You can't be a single mom. And all of them things. I was scared. I hadn't had a child before.

So I was like, right, okay. You're 21 at this point? No, at this point. I was probably like 23, 24. So I was still very young, really. Yeah. allowed him to come back, but it got worse. He started to like grab weapons that he had never done before.

And I remember, I remember the night everything changed. We used to have two living rooms, the living room where you enter the house and then the back living room. But then there was a stair that led upstairs, but a door, so you'd have to go through the door to get upstairs. Obviously, my child was upstairs sleeping. I let him in because if I didn't, he'd be shouting on the street. We lived in a grove, quiet. I'm embarrassed. He's shouting in all kinds of disgusting things about me.

So just let him in to save the piece. And I remember him like in the kitchen. All I could hear was like knives and forks. You know the cutlery drawer? Yeah, that's scary. I looked at the door and I thought, oh my God, my son's upstairs. So I just pushed with all my might the sofa in front of the door. And I remember as I'm doing it, thinking to myself,

you will never get back in this house again. This is the last straw. You won't do this again. You know, the police must have been called. They took him away. After that, he had never come back as it were. To say we were on and off, probably a little bit, he would probably come in the house for a little bit. But he would never stay overnight. We were finished and all of that. He went to Yemen in. I think it was

June or July of 2014. And then he was like, come with me. Let's try. You know, it'll be different in Yemen. Oh, sure. With no. Yeah. I can imagine women's rights in Yemen are slightly downgraded compared to the UK. Yeah. Well, I think what he was trying to say was, obviously you can't drink in Yemen, you know. So I won't be the same kind of person. I'm sure you still can if you really, really want to. I think he was just trying to clutch it. He never really ever wanted to let me go through trying to clutch it. Thank God you didn't go to Yemen. Well, my dad wouldn't let me go as well.

So my dad was like, I know, you're not going to Yemen, Toreen and ever. Are you going to Yemen? I don't care. Where's your dad's family originally? So we're mixed race, white and Pakistani. My dad's Pakistani. So he's like, you're not ever going to Yemen. Side note, my sister is married to someone who's Iraqi.

and my dad at first was like, you're never going to Iraq, but she went and it was okay. So I think my dad is just really protective life like that anyway. Yemen's a little bit unstable even compared to Iraq these days. So dad was always against that. I think it was the right thing not to do anyway just because whatever. So he went to Yemen and it was originally supposed to be for six weeks. He went with his family. And I remember seeing the ticket and the return date.

He never came back on the return date. Family did. He never did. So I'm like, oh, hold on, what's going on here? No one knew when he was coming back And we had had sporadic conversation Over the phone Are you okay? How's my son?

He missed his son's first birthday All of them things So yeah, the conversation was sporadic And he just basically was like I've got married again, I'm not coming back All of this stuff That's a choice Yeah, so I was, he hadn't

It was lies Oh Yeah he was lying He was like no move on with your life You silly cow And all these kind of evil stuff That he was saying I'm never coming back

Silly cow is really It was worse I just milked that one down. No, he went in. He went in. He went in. He went in. He went in.

It wasn't a joke. So like he's in now, right, I need to bring it back. So whilst he's in Yemen, I don't know how to word this, let's say there was something going on in the Middle East, a bit similar to what's happening now, right? This is in 2014. And, you know, everyone was protested and fundraise and all of them things. So was this another Gaza thing? Another Gaza situation. Okay.

Right? In 2014. So I was never allowed on Facebook whilst being mad. or any social media. So husbands in Yemen. And I remember at the time seeing my neighbor and she'd just come back from like a fundraising thing for Gaza. And I was like, oh my God, you know, I don't know about any of these things ever.

And she was like, yeah, it was on Facebook. Right. And from there, I reactivated Facebook. I see. Yeah. And I started coming across profiles of guys who were dressed all in black and holding like, I don't know, maybe a gun or something like that. So I initially thought that they were in Palestine.

So one of them, I sent them a message to be like, look, praying for you, hope you're okay. Because I know it's a tricky topic at the minute, but we've always kind of stood for Palestine and kind of protested and donated aid and things like that for years. So, you know, I sent him a message and I was like, look, I hope you're okay praying for you. And he was like, thank you, but I'm not in Gaza. So where are you then? And he said, we're in Syria. I had no idea what was happening in Syria. Right, okay.

So I was like, right, what's going on in Syria? And he was literally like, well, you don't know. Knock, knock, though. Are you dumb? Yeah. I'm going to say who watches the news at like 23, 24 kind of thing. I mean, you're not wrong, especially if you don't have social media. Yeah, literally.

You're watching, I don't know, whatever reality TV shows you can get your hands on. Keeping up with Kardashians. I was obsessed with it. Yeah. Desperate housewives, obsessed. Yeah, not a lot of Gaza and ISIS stuff shows up in the Kardashians. Absolutely. Yeah.

I don't think I've ever seen it in there. So, um, the conversation. started from there. But why I mentioned that then is because he basically started off by saying, look, we've established the Islamic state. It's haram for you to live in a country where it's not ruled by Sharia, blah, but I'll get into this greater a bit down the line. And the conversation started like that. But at the same time, I had my ex-husband saying, oh, I'm not coming back. I'm starting a new life here. And as petty as this sounds, I'm not ashamed to admit this as a fully grown woman now. Literally, a big part of my reasoning for even continuing to talk with that person

was right, okay, you can start a new life as well, somewhere else. I will also do that. I know how that sounds. My heart stops when I relay that, but that's me being honest. That's my immaturity at that time. That was my, I'm destroyed here because of you. I missed out on loads of life opportunities because of him, being a doctor, being an air hostess on Emirates. My mom's got Australian roots immigrating to Australia. Rehabilitation support worker. I'm essentially nothing now. I wasn't nothing but like how I had seen it. Like I could be so. much and I'm nothing now because of you. Oh, when you go to Yemen and get married, okay, so is that how this ends? Well, guess what, buddy? You're not the only one that can go and live, I know, I know, I know,

literally. Now, everybody listening is like, this girl is the dumbest person alive. And I am. I am a realist. It is. That is exactly what it is. But I'm just trying to explain my train of thought behind it. Yeah. Because how do you get someone who's really westernized, been raised in England, not from a strict family to go there? That's 100 miles an hour. It's true. I will say, If you'd never really heard much about Syria and you'd never been to a place like Syria, you really didn't know what you were getting into at that point in time to a degree. I had never been anywhere like that. Yeah.

Okay, so I started to read things online, speak to this guy and watch blogs from people who were there. But I had never been anywhere like that. And reading things online is very different to being there. Sure. I remember the first time, and I will never forget it, that I've seen that black flag in real life. we were on a bus going from one part of Syria to another. We'll get there. Okay, cool.

Let's hold off because I am curious what that reaction was like. But I want to say it's quite funny that you're looking at, I guess, Facebook or Instagram and you see the guys are the black flags or whatever. And it's almost like, do you use the term thirst trap here in the UK? Yeah, definitely. It's like an ISIS thirst trap that this guy had going. So interesting that you should say that because when I was, I, none the wiser, everything happened, came back to England, whatever.

But on trial, one of my legal team said, you do know that this guy, because I give them his name and everything, you do know that this guy is responsible for like hundreds of girls running away from Europe. Really? And I was like, what? That's my friend. You know, in my head, not probably now when I had escaped, but I'm like, no, that was my friend.

He was my friend. And she's like, no, this man's name has cropped up in hundreds of cases. That was the first time I realized I had been groomed. Right. He was a recruiter for Isis. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's how it goes. Young handsome man on the internet,

speaking to women, get them to come over here. Basically, that's what it was, what you've just said. It's crazy. It is crazy, it is. But it was an effective strategy, right? They dress this guy out, they take photos of him, and then they just sit him in front of, or they get him, I don't know, an unlimited plan on his phone.

And he's sitting there DMing 12 girls a day or 20 girls a day, what are I, 100? Yeah. Wow. And within a few weeks, he's kind of won you over, right? Because you change your Facebook. I've seen in your documentary there's like an ISIS flag and maybe a photo of you wearing, is it a burqa? That wasn't me.

That's just a picture from Google Images of a woman with beautiful green eyes and her face covered. Yeah. But that was what I did change the display picture too. At that point, surely you've seen other information about Islamic State. Did you think, oh, this is fake or was like the chaos a little bit of an interesting part of the deal? I think for me it was more just about I felt like I had to be there. I felt like I had to get there to live there because our conversation between me and this guy had become about how if you don't come to live here, you'll go to hell because you don't live in a country that has Sharia law. And in the beginning I did say, well, I've got family that live in Saudi Arabia.

I've got family that live in other Muslim countries. I'll go and live there. And he's like, no, no place on this earth has Sharia law apart from here. I'll never forget what he said. I used to ask him a lot of questions and he was like, look, sister, you are the only one that asks this many questions. I'm just going to put it so simple to you. Right now, staying in England, your body is levitating over the fire of hell. That is it.

And were you to die, you would drop into that. I have had nightmares, even in prison, even out of prison. It's a recurring dream that happens where I'm levitating over like lava. I started to have that nightmare. Sure. I think the last time I had it was probably like last year. It's still something that's there in my head. Right.

So the conversation took that narrative of, you have to be here. And by the way, only the special... Muslims get to make a hit. And then they relay certain hadith and certain verses from the Quran that are taken out of context and go in line with what he says. You can't just pluck a verse out of a book and say, well, Jordan, this is what happens. It's in context. It needs to be in its entirety, you know? Sure. I can pluck a bit out of any book and be like, look, this is what it says, but hold on, did you read the whole thing? But you didn't, you weren't a scholar of the Quran at that point in time. No, absolutely. No, not at all. So he just weaponized it against you. Yeah, absolutely. And another thing was

like he was a revert. He was from a Catholic family. And throughout our conversations, he would always make me feel like stupid if that makes sense. Because he was like, you were raised in Islam. How am I teaching you your religion? Well, because fanatical converts are the ones who know the most about this stuff typically anyways, at least in terms of propaganda. I think at that moment, I just felt stupid. Because I was like, you know what, he's right. How don't I know what he's saying? When he was raised Catholic and just has been Muslim for like, I don't know, maybe one year or two. I'm probably not a good Muslim So I kind of believed what he had said a little bit

We set himself up as an authority In order to exert that authority over me We would speak every time he had internet I found myself worrying If he didn't have internet Because I was like, is he okay? I thought of him as a friend Sure

Literal friend He did make some insinuation About getting married when I got there I didn't want to marry him So I had blocked him before I ended up travelling over there I got the numbers of the people that I needed to get that would get me over there.

Whatever. This guy, by the way, he was a European, right? He was Portuguese, yeah. And he had left Portugal and gone to Syria. Yes. So he came to London to be a footballer. He was a really, really, really good footballer. And I don't know, he made friends in London with,

ended up becoming Muslim in London, I believe. I think that's where it happened for him, really. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I'm sure that MI5 is on top of that one, finding out how this guy got radicalized in London. I'm sure he wasn't the only one that it happened to.

No, of course not. I'm sure there's probably loads of people that it happened to. You know who won't sell you into human slavery? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, these thinkers, these creators, and these cooks who'd run off and join ISIS every single week, it's because of my network.

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Once again, all free at six minute networking. Now, back to Tarina Shaquille. So you tell your family, I'm going on a beach holiday in Turkey with my son and they're like, okay, have fun. And then how does it go from there? You flew to Turkey. So I flew to Turkey, I booked like a one week holiday. Now, what I will say is, it was never 100% sure that I would run away to Syria.

Yes, I traveled with that in mind. Yes, I booked Turkey with that in mind. But I was saying to myself all along, I'm just going to see how this goes, how far it goes. Because remember, only the best of Muslims make it here, yeah? So you have to be special to make it there. Maybe I'm not. Many people got arrested on the way. I was wondering about that.

I was wondering how they, because it's a militarized border. They're just not, they're not just like, oh, all right. Yeah, Syria's right over there. So they've got people that like patrol the border on the Turkey side. So they would know. Because look, the border is hundreds of miles long, right? It's not possible to probably monitor the whole hundred miles. I think there are checkpoints in certain places, but some of it, as with every border, I mean, you can just probably walk over.

Farmland or whatever. Yeah, farmland. Desert. It was pure desert. That's what it was. So I traveled to Turkey with the idea that that is where you cross over to Syria. But I was like, you know what? Let me see. But I want to mention before, because it's important. So I went on a Monday to Turkey. The night before I traveled, I went back home to Birmingham. I don't know to like see the house for the last time or get a few things. Because I had been staying at my mom's because remember ex-husbands and you. Yemen. Well, husband's in whatever, is in Yemen. Current slash ex-husband. Yeah, corn slash whatever he is. I don't know. I don't care. It's complicated. It's in Yemen. So I was staying at my mom's. So I went back to get like a few things, say goodbye to the house and I will never forget. I sent him a message my ex-husband and I said to him, look, this is your final chance to tell me now, are you coming back? Yes or no. I don't want to play games. I didn't say because I'm thinking of running away to Syria. I didn't say anything like that. But I was saying, look, are you being serious? Are you married? Do you not care about your son like you said? Because I

would say things like, what about your son? Are you not going to come home? Oh, my son will grow to be a man. He'll find me. And all of them kind of things. Yeah. Heart-wrenching things. And I basically got a message of profanity back saying, move on with your life, basically, amongst all these swear words. I'm never coming back. I'd never want to see your face again. And I was like, are you sure about that? Okay, obviously I cannot continue with what I want to say, i.e. you will never see us again. He's like, yeah, who cares about you? Who ever cared about you? And still abusing you from Yemen. Literally. But I just want to say that the God honest truth is. had he have said in their messages,

I'm coming back on Thursday because he was coming back that Thursday. Ironically, the day I crossed over the border into Syria, the day before is the day that he came back. So he knew when we had this exchange that his ticket was booked and he was coming back on the Thursday on Friday. He just wanted to piss you off. He just wanted to be nasty and horrible. Had he said in that moment, look, I'm coming back.

God on his truth, I would never have traveled into Syria. We wouldn't be sitting here. Wow. It's mad. How close at all. I mean, not close. It did happen. So, okay, so you flew into talking.

Talia, Turkey, then to, I'm going to get this wrong, it's called Gaziantep or something like that. From Antalya to Istanbul, from Istanbul, you have a number to ring of a guy. So it's a chain of events. It's not one person who you're in constant contact with. Get to Antalya, ring this number. He tells you to fly to Istanbul. Get to Istanbul, ring this number. He gives you another number.

Fly to Gaziante. When you're in Gaziant, ring this guy. And it's just a chain of events. So, yeah. It's like a security thing, yeah. Of course, because who are, there's no, like, they don't run a check on you. You could be anybody. That's a good point.

But ended up in Gaziantep, southern Turkey, which is inevitably one of the places where they used to cross people over from the other place was called Sanley Ertha. But we ended up in Gaziantep. Okay. So what's in Gazianti. There's like a safe house? It was a safe house, yes. Just like a three or four story, broken down house, if that makes sense. I don't know, third floor, all men, fourth floor, women.

Obviously, I was in the room with the women. A lot of Russians. Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like Chechen guys or something? Chechen, Dagestani, Russian. Where else were people from?

Uzbekistan. Okay. You know, places like that, South America, Caribbean. Really? Yeah, yeah. How random is that? How do you go from the Caribbean to join ISIS? I mean, you from the UK, I did it, so I guess.

That woman had such an interesting story, the one from the Caribbean. Oh, she was a woman. Well, because I was in the room with her. So she had gone with her husband. And you're going to think this is mad, but I met loads of people whose stories are like, you know, I said to you like, well, I was in two. mind's whether to go. And if my husband had a text back, so many people have there had that same story. Not the exact same, but like, because my husband wanted to, and I just like came and I

didn't really question. And you would think now, hello? Yeah. But there were so many women, I met people with extraordinary stories. And she was one of them. She was like, I don't even know if I'm properly Muslim. I was raised. It's mad. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. Wow. And they're all going to Syria. Yes. Was anybody really ready for it or was everybody kind of like, yeah, I don't really know what to expect, but I think it's going to be great. I think not a lot of people spoke English. So the people that I could speak to that spoke English, I think there was one family who was a lot of people had people there that had already gone. Okay. People like myself that didn't have anybody there were few and far between. To them, this is the best thing because

they've had their family tell them how it's good and they're going to be with family. Seldom did people totally leave everything behind like I did and go and be on their own there. So they must have thought you were the weirdo actually, right? Do you know, I had this conversation with somebody when we first entered into Syria, a girl that spoke English, and she said, sister, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I am in awe of you. And I was like, why? She said, like, to be on your own.

I don't fathom that. I can't understand that. She was there with her two sisters. Her sister's husband was there. They had a whole family there. Sure. She was like, I couldn't do this on my own. Like, I respect you.

And I was like, I've never seen it like that, but okay, thank you kind of thing. Sure. Oh, my gosh. I've traveled alone abroad, certainly not to Syria. And people are like, wow, I can't believe you did that. So I have like a 10% understanding. Yeah. Like, oh, you went to this whole country and set up a life on your own as a young person.

Yeah, I just didn't, I didn't do it in a war zone. And I didn't do it with my kids. I can't even go to the grocery store with my kids. So I have to say you did, regardless of where you went, it is impressive in what sort of every sense of the word that you did manage to do it with a child. It would have been so annoying to do that with my kids to say the last. least. So how old are you at this point? Like 26 years old? No. 25? 24. 24. 24. branching on 25, should we say.

Okay. And then how long were you in Syria? Eight weeks. Okay. Wow, that must have been eight long weeks. What is it like there? Well, actually, let me back up. You're in the safe house in Gazianti.

How do you get into Syria? Like you said, the borders sort of protected, sort of unprotected. What is that like? Basically, a truck came and got us all together and drove us. I don't know, 40 minutes, should we say, to deserted farmland, desert. Just rocks and dirt kind of deal? Literally, sandy, pure desert. And then they were like, get off, run, run.

And showed us the direction to run in. So we ran in that direction for, I don't know, maybe 30, 40 seconds. There was another guy waiting. Run that way. There was another guy waiting. Run that way. I probably ran for like three minutes, no more than five. On the other side, there's like, you know one of them trucks that's open back?

The back is open. I don't know what the name of that vehicle is. Like a pickup truck. Yeah. We just mounted the back of that, a pickup truck. And when everyone had crossed the border, They drove us to this first. It's always a Toyota high looks, by the way.

They love those things. I don't know what the deal is. It's like ice just buys half of them. I didn't notice the vehicle of the truck because I think my adrenaline was running wild at that moment. So, yeah, I now am thinking about it. I remember exactly how I felt in that moment, getting on the back of that truck. To find the words, it would be numb. Numb.

Oh, okay. I made it. What am I doing here? But this is what you wanted there, wasn't it? A circus in here. And when I say a circus, I don't mean it's all fun and game. It's going wild in here. I probably didn't have the words to say in their moments because it's like,

Terina, this is real now. Yeah. This is real. Up until then, it had been speaking with people on the internet. It had been watching things on the internet. That's not real. I'm in England watching this. It's real when I'm here.

As mad as this sounds, there will probably be loads of things that I say that sound mad. To me, it was kind of like an adventure. No, I get it. And I was like, oh, mission complete, wild. But it's like, made it here. Oh, only the best Muslims make it here. Yes. Brilliant.

It's mad. But at the same time, what have I done? Family, my God, war zone. But at that time, I hadn't seen bombing or whatever because you're on the outskirts. And it's like mixed emotions within myself. If you were with me in that moment, I probably couldn't have spoken to you. I didn't have the words. There was a training camp of fighters and they were like doing martial arts or that.

That was the first time I seen it in real life. And I don't want to use the words in awe because that insinuates that I was looking at something I'm really happy, but dumbfounded. Okay. You are the people that I've watched on the internet for like, I mean, the grooming process took like six weeks. It wasn't long at all.

Interesting. But it became a big part of my life. It was like every day. Watching them do the jump through the fire hoop. That's the thing I always laughing. I'm like, what skill is this where you're jumping through a hula hoop that's on fire? You never know.

They're going to have to jump through a hula hoos at some fire, do you? That's right. That's right. You never know when they're going to have to have one of those in a war zone. Or jokes aside. Have you ever met someone famous that you're like? Sure. Like, oh, my God, there's Val Kilmer.

Of course. Not that they were famous, but it's like, oh, okay, this is you. Yeah, in that moment, frozen. Starstruck, but for ISIS. Well, I don't want to, not starstruck. Because if I seen Jennifer Lopez, my heart would hit the deck. Sure. I would fall over and be bright red.

So, like, none of that happened. But it's not like starstruck. It's like, wow, you guys are real. Yeah, yeah. It happens. It's real. You guys are really here. Wow.

And then you roll into, was it Raqa? Is that the way they take you at first? No. So we spent like a week and a half in a place called Drabblous, which is maybe, I don't know, an hour and a half away from Raka. Okay. After like a week and a half, it felt like a year and a half, the van came and took the people that weren't married into Raka.

Because most of the women, as I said, that were there, had family already that were there that would come and get them and take them off to live wherever. So I went on a bus with, I don't know, maybe 20 or the kids. girls, Tiraqa. That's quite a few people. Yeah. Well, in the house that we went from on the bus, there was 150 people living there. Wow. It was like a farm, a Syrian farm. A hundred and fifty people. Yeah. So there's like one place here, then another big house here. Yes. Wow. Yes. Loads of women. Yeah. Loads. Holy, loads. Okay, so you go to this like residence for women, for lack of a better word? Yes. They refer to it as the Makar. What are the rules of this place?

Right. So you're not allowed your phone on you. For security reason? Well, you could be anybody. And, you know, a lot of the media that came out of there was controlled. You couldn't just start tweeting from Syria. You'd get into a lot of trouble like that. Okay. Only set people could.

You know, like they had the poster people. I don't know in America if they had like... You got ISIS influencers. Yes. But like, yeah, spokespeople. In England, there were like two or three people that England knew were there that were like quite famous for running away there. And they had like a platform. And like you say,

ISIS influencer. I don't know another way to describe it, but they had special permission to do that. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I couldn't just go on Facebook and be like, hi, Terina Shaquil here, loving it. No. And that's one of the reasons why when I was in Syria, there's no social media posts from me at all. News coverage, yes, loads of it. But posts from me on Twitter, Facebook, none of them were logged into at all because you can't. So yeah, phones taken off you. You're not allowed to just go out and about when you want, no. Because you're a single woman. Is that why? I mean, I guess. You just don't go out and about.

It's not done. But men can do it, right? Around Raka, but none of the fighters could. And I always found this interesting. I don't know why. An ISIS fighter could not just get on the bus from Raka and go to the next city. You have to have something called Waraqa. Waraka means paper, which is permission to travel from the person who's in charge of Raka.

So everything is controlled. A lot, yes. Men, to a degree. All of it controlled, men and women. Well, yeah, it's a security state. Of course it is because we don't know who you are. We don't know what you've seen. We don't know what your intentions are.

And what I will say is women like myself who would come from England, France, America, countries that were part of the coalition that were bombing ISIS, they were the enemy of ISIS. So people like myself who come from a country that was in the coalition were always treated differently. I see. Always. Always some level of scrutiny. Always watched that bit more.

Always. I don't know, like kind of like whispering behind your back kind of thing. People who would, I mean, I was with people from Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan. You know, they were a lot freer than we were. Sure. Because it's like, okay, like you're probably not a spy if you're from them countries. I don't know what the rationale was. Yeah, there was like a 10% worry that you were actually a spy.

Yeah, absolutely like it's, okay, cool. I noticed that the girls like myself, like they would just question a little bit harder. Oh, so let's share your story with me. How come you're here? Because like I said before, there's no check. You don't apply for a visa to go there. Right. You know, anybody can go there.

How do they know I'm not a spy? And particularly, like, with my involvement with the media, I just had all eyes on me at all instances, really, because it's like, who is this girl? Big question mark over my head, all of these. Do your parents know that you're in Syria at this point? How did they find out? So you were not supposed to tell your parents anything.

Okay. I was with people in Syria whose parents thought they were in Turkey, whose parents thought they were in there in Morocco. Like on a long trip. Well, yeah. I'm just working in Turkey. Like whatever. I'm just traveling through Turkey.

I'm backpacking. You know, it's not on toward. People do them kind of things. Yeah, of course. But me, I'm from a really close family. Oh, I don't want to start crying. Our family is built on love. Yeah.

All we have is each other. As in mom, dad, sister, two brothers. We just have each other, right? We're a unit. We fight together. We die together kind of thing. I first sent the first message when I was in Gaziant. tip to say to my dad, look, I'm not coming back.

He thought I was joking because, look, you would never expect. I'm having such a great time. I'm never coming home. Not what I mean, Dad. Literally, I was like, Dad, no, I said, I'm going to Syria. I said that to my dad. And he was like, right, whatever. We'll see you when you come back.

Because he wouldn't think that. Nobody would think that about me. You just wouldn't. I've never had them interests. There's nothing pro-extremist extremist in my past. Or even since I've come back, there's nothing there. Well, he's thinking, oh, my daughter who watched. the Kardashians is joining ISIS.

All right, have a fun trip, honey. We'll see you when you get home. 100%. That's what he was like. You're so funny or whatever. Like, we'll see you when you get home. Literally to the point where even the day before I came back, the day before I was supposed to come back, which was the following Monday, I was in Syria

and they were messaging me saying, well, even for the airport now. Oh, that's sad. Yeah. I'm not happy with myself about, there are a few things like that that happened. I hate myself for that. Let's be honest about that. Cruel, horrible. Man, what was their reaction when they realized that you actually.

So as a precautionary measure, they had rang the police when I had just entered Syria. Because my dad was like, look, at this point, I don't know if she's actually joking or like, like, she's going along with it a bit too much now. Like, because if something's a joke, you just say it once, right? And you have a laugh about it. But when they carry on asking me and it's the next day, it's like, no, dad, I told you I'm not coming back. So he had called the police already. But they still had that hope in their heart that I was joking with them to the point where, yeah, we're leaving for the airport the day before. I guess they were holding on to the fact that it was a.

a joke. Right, sure. You know, because you don't do that, Tarina. Right. Oh, my poor parents. Our daughter doesn't do that. Our sister doesn't do that. You're coming home.

We know you are, you know? Yeah. Oh, my God. So when did they realize that you had actually left and joined? I think the moment they knew it was real was when I wasn't on the flight. Like, I was, I didn't come back that day. So then they called the cops and they're like, okay. They had called the cops already.

Like, because I remember, I told them from Gaziant, but I'm going into Syria. And then like, obviously he would, obviously he messaged me the next day. I was like, I'm in Syria. Surely they called the police back. Like, hey, she missed her flight. Maybe she wasn't joking about the thing I reported yesterday. Because it was such a serious complaint that they were not complaint. Serious, the police were in constant dialogue with them.

So I think on Monday they were like, look, yeah. If she's not on the flight. Yeah. Yeah. We'll come back to that. What is Raqa like? You're stuck in the house. So I'm assuming you didn't witness any violence or anything like this.

No, I haven't witnessed any heads on spikes, dead bodies or anything like that. know. On TV at this point, in the West we're seeing ISIS beheadings. They murdered that pilot by lighting him on fire in the cage. I mean, that had happened when I had come back. I see. But yeah, there was a lot of violence in Syria that the world had have seen. Whilst I was there, I didn't see anything like that. At the time that you were over there, ISIS had even beheaded a couple Brits, actually, by that time, a journalist, I think. Okay. And I know that the attacks on the West happened after you left already. But I'm guessing, were you aware of like, hey, they beheaded this journalist, like, but he was a British guy. You must have known that it had happened

but thought, oh, well, I think it had happened before I had gone. Yeah. And I spoke to the Portuguese guy and I said, look, what's, come on, like this is what we're seeing on the news, what's going on here. The narrative was always, do not let them distract you. Don't you know, the media hates Islam? They don't want us to have Sharia. They will do anything to kind of stop you from coming here. So it was kind of said like, it's, look, it's not real. I see. So it's, it's, They were arguing, hey, this is fake. Yeah, it's fake. And at the same time, look, Tarina don't get sidetracked.

They will do these tactics. They say anything to make Muslims look bad in the news. Look, you're a British girl. You know how it goes. The media is the enemy of Islam kind of thing. And then he would go on to say, well, do you know how they kill the Muslims in so and so? And do you know how they killed the Muslims in Afghanistan? And, you know, kind of like bringing it back?

Like, do you know how the Shah al-Assad slaughters the Muslims over here? Do you know what he does to their children? and kind of like as a distraction technique, well, what they do is worse or, you know, even if it was real kind of thing. So you kind of, that's horrific, right, beheading somebody regardless. But the speech and the dialogue you have with this person kind of makes you think, put it to the back burner, if that makes sense. Sure. So he distracts you from it and says, even if it is real, which it might not be, they're doing worse things. Look at Assad used chemical weapons on people.

I mean, there were horrific stories that come from Syria about how the Shara al-Assad tortures the people. and, you know, they are heart-wrenching stories. Yeah, he's a bastard. There's no getting around. He's evil. And I didn't know about them things until speaking to this guy. I didn't know. I don't watch the news.

So he'd be like, well, read this about this. And you read harrowing things that even are inflicted upon children. Yeah. To the point where at one point, I genuinely thought, thank God you guys are there. Yeah. Because it was like, well, we're here to liberate the Syrian people from Bashar al-Assad. But at the same time, we're setting up Sharia. So, like, it's a win-win kind of thing.

So there was a point where, I thought, my God, thank God, you guys are there. You're saving the Syrian people, thank God. You know, and part of the thinking was like that. Yeah. You know, so you kind of seen them as the good guys, as much as the whole world knows what they are and that they're this evil group that do things that is not Islamic

and, like, that are so against Islam, most Muslims hate ISIS passionately. I have Muslims that troll me, that troll me. And you think, dude, understand. We must like, you need to understand the concept of it. But no, they go in. They go in. So I think a part of the narrative was for you to resonate with them. Oh, thank God we need you there. Yeah. Would you say at that point, were you kind of turned against the culture of the West or was there something else going on? For me, it's never been about against the culture of the West or anything like that.

It was more about. It's hard to undo the programming you get from the Kardashians. That's a lot. It's a lot to, you can't really undo that. It's there forever. Jordy Shore is forever. Jordy Shores forever. And that, you know, we'll always be watching them kind of things. That's right. For me, honestly, it was about making Hidra.

Hidra is migration for the purpose of Islam. It was, need to save myself from the fire. If we live in this country, we're going to hell. And at the same time, you know what? Remember? I need revenge on my ex-husband as well. So it was loads of things. It wasn't just this one.

Never have hated England. Never. For what? We're free here. That's what everybody's wondering. Like she left this great place. Yeah, absolutely. I get that.

I get that. I get that. Trust me, I do. I have never hated my country ever. We are free here. You can be Muslim here. You can be Sikh. You can be, you can be Jewish.

You don't have to believe in a God. And it's fine because you have that opportunity here. And, you know, we've always loved that. It's a great country. You know, I've never hated England. But that's been put to me a few times, like a few times like, oh, you must have hated England. Never. And there was one time.

When living in the house in Syria in Raka, I almost got into like a lot of, a lot of trouble. A lot of trouble because I remember it. There was this spiral staircase. And like everyone was just sitting down eating. And I was walking down the staircase. And there was the woman that used to look after the house. There was two women.

One that was in charge of the whole house and one woman from Saudi Arabia that was in charge of the women inside the house. If that makes sense. So there's two. One from Morocco, one from Saudi. We spent all of our time with the one from Saudi. She was in charge of us. I just came walking down the stairs one day.

And the woman from Saudi, she said, as a joke, here she is the Queen of England. How nice of you to come and join us or whatever? Because they were like fascinated by my accent. And they said, you sound like the Queen. Like, you know, all of them kind of things. The Queen has finally joined us, you know, taking the piss kind of thing. She then went on to say, oh, but don't worry, we will get your throne back, blah, blah, we'll take over England one day. She said something like that.

Then I said, you will never take over England. Like, that was my literal response. I said, you know, my actual words were back here, England. Back here means it will remain. When I tell you, the room went silent. Wow, crickets. Literally went silent, turned round. And she's kind of like, what did you say?

And I was like, oh, God, I shouldn't have said that kind of thing, you know. So, yeah, never hated England, almost got into big trouble because of that. Yeah. Well, I'll stay over there. But, yeah. You know what's better than getting bombed into oblivion over in Raka, Syria? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code. Email me, Jordan atjurbaner.com. I am more than happy to surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of Part 1 with Tarina Shaquille.

When was it like, oh, this is dangerous? This place is dangerous. So I wanted and was supposed to escape after like a week of being in Maraca. There was a group of girls that escaped before me. They just ran out of the house. How did that happen? Basically, what happened was I would wake in the middle of the night to go to the toilet. And for three nights, the same group of girls were sat there talking in the hallway.

And every time I walked past, they were quiet. They were quiet. One of the girls I had become very good friends with, a girl from Qatar, lovely girl. Not best friend, but like I just spent a lot of time with her. So in one of the days, I said to her, look, I see you there every night. What's going on? And she said, listen, please don't tell anybody, but we are planning to escape. Wow.

At night, come and sit with us. So there was like her three other girls. And on the fourth night, I went to sit with them and they were like, how are we going to do it? And I said, you guys are meeting up every. This is what you guys are talking about. She's like, yes, don't tell anyone because we would have been killed. No kidding. So the German girl said that she knew of a guy that was a nicest fighter that probably could have helped her.

and the plan was flimsy. The plan was to jump over the wall and... Of the house. Of the house, yeah, because we lived... It was a mansion. The governor of Raka used to live there, but he obviously fled when ISIS took over. So this is like probably a $10 million house kind of thing in a fortress.

So their plan was to jump over the wall and potentially take refuge with this ISIS fighter who... And I'm thinking, how can you put your trust in... The plan was flimsy. They were going to sleep, Rolfing. I said, look, I am dying to... leave this place, but remember I've got my child with me. Oh, yeah.

I can't, if I didn't have my child, I would have jumped over the wall with them. I said, look, I've put him in enough danger as it is already. I need something more than we're going to just sleep rough. And how do you know, the ISIS fighter's not going to turn his back on you? Sleep rough means what, outside? Well, like outside, yeah. Like, we'll just find somewhere to sleep. And then, look, I've already messed up majorly.

I can't do that. I need something more than, oh, I kind of know of a brother that, what if he goes back on you? What if he can't trust him? This is a guy who joined ISIS and he's giving his life for ISIS. Absolutely. He's going to smuggle you out of there? Of course. So the next day, the women of the house, the Saudi Arabian woman went to, like, the doctors,

they went on like a big trip. Remember, you cannot just leave the house on your own. So the sisters weren't with the kids. I didn't witness it take place, but they must have jumped over the wall. Right? And they said, look, when they come back cover for us, I said, okay, I said my good advice to them. They went, after like some hours of the Saudi Arabian returning, she was like, or whatever from Germany.

And the whole house started looking for them. This was after like hours. And they were like, like, Mother of England, let's say that that's what they called me. You, because you're not allowed to tell people your name there. Oh, okay.

I was like, what do they call you? Yeah, because everyone, you're not allowed to give you a real name there. Really? That's kind of strange. It kind of is, but it's like, okay, if I escaped and got arrested like I did, yeah?

So now I can't tell you the Saudi Arabian woman's real name. Right, that's true. I don't know her real name. She is Um Khaled al-Saudi. That's it. So I can't go back to my country and give them the count of her. No, at all. So do you know what I mean?

So it's kind of like for the purpose of anonymity. And she was like, um, Britannia, you were the last, like, you're a really good friend with her. Where is she? And I was like, oh, I don't know. Knowing done while they've gone. She was enraged. She was like, oh my God, you know, we'll find them.

Anyway, they never did. But I was supposed to escape with them girls. I was just biding my time after that to try and find. the way to escape. Yeah. Because I need to leave this place. I can't be here. You said in a BBC interview that there were two girls who were like, unruly is the word

you used. Yes. What was the deal with them? So one of them was an Algerian girl from France and one of them was a Dagestani. When I say unruly, it's not unruly. It was they were probably missing home. They didn't want to be, they wanted to be left alone. Like she wanted her phone.

This is the Algerian woman. She was just like, I don't want to eat with everybody. I just want to be on my own. And then they were like, no, you need to come and sit with everybody. What are you doing there? And like that kind of behavior was determined unruly. Okay. So she got into a fight with like, I think it was a Saudi Arabian woman there

because she had tried to like attack her and hit her. And I remember trying to stop that fight. But after like a day or two, I don't know, they just got fed up with this Algerian French girl and a van of ISIS fighters came in the house and just took her away. Oh my God. Literally, yeah. Do you have any idea what happened to them? I don't know.

And the same thing happened to the girl from Dagestan. They, like, beat her badly in the house, badly. And then the next day it was just like, right, you're going. Never seen them again. Oh, man. What do you think happened to them? At the very least, they would have been taken to prison. Were they killed?

I mean, I don't know. But at the very least, they would have been taken to prison. That must have been really scary. That was really scary. And when you think about it as well at the same time, like I'm trying to escape as well. Yeah, so you're like. So I'm like, oh, I'm not going to mouth off to that Saudi woman, but I am going to jump over the wall with a child and trying to escape. Which is way.

So I was just trying to like find the way. I can't jump over the wall with a child. That couldn't have happened. No, of course. So I was waiting for something and at the same time continuously praying. And at the same time, I can't tell my family as well. Look, I don't want to be here because there's all these stories going on in the media. Like, I can't trust anybody.

How do I know it's not going to happen that you're going to tell the media. Like you're getting me into big trouble here. You think it's cool that you're giving these stories to the media, but you're putting pressure on me here. Like the Saudi Arabian woman is infatuated with me. Like she just wants to like be with me all the time. Oh, because you're the girl from England. You know, it's weird.

So there's stories about you in the international media. My whole time in Syria, like almost daily, the British media. Like a famous tabloid. Literally. I met people in England in prison that were in Syria at the same time as me that came up to me and was like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm meeting you. I was like, who are you? She's like, yeah, we lived in Syria at the same time.

Oh, gosh. Weird, mad, crazy, like out of this world. So you're like The It Girl of Isis, I think is one of the titles that I saw when I was prepping the show. Really? The It Girl of Isis. Not a bad title. Not a bad title. Yeah, yeah, I could.

They weren't like me there. Yeah. I know that unmarried women who joined the Caliphate are supposed to get married off right away to fighters. Like, that's why you had to be in that house or whatever. You mentioned that they were, there was like a matchmaking situation going on. What was that all about? So basically, as soon as you got to the housing racker, you would give your preference, i.e., what languages should they be able to speak? What country do you originally come from?

How long do you want the beard to be? They didn't ask about the beard, right? But maybe they wanted to add that question on. No, all jokes aside, questions like, what languages do you speak? What languages do you want them to speak? What country do you want them to be from? And we will try to match you up as close as we can. Yeah, they just kind of wrote it down on a piece of paper.

So it's like English the end. I'm curious what your preferences were. I don't even. All my preferences are made up to go along with the damn thing. I think I just look at all someone that speaks English. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

That's so weird. Someone that's going to let me go back to England. Yeah. Like somebody who wants to, who loves traveling. They're like, no, we don't really have that here. Someone who wants to go back to their home country. Yeah. Oof.

Oh my God. So are they introducing you to these like ISIS fighters? What are these guys like? So I did have a meeting. Yeah. With an individual. You have a few minutes to speak to this person. You can't really get a good feel for them.

You just, so in the room, it's me, that man, and the guy who's the matchmaking guy and his wife, but they will sit with their back to us. They're just making sure that you don't, like, do anything inappropriate. Well, that's an Islamic thing anyway. Like, even now, if you wanted to date, you would not just go on your own. That's just the rule that we're supposed to follow. Yeah. I'm not saying every Muslim follows that rule. but you're supposed to do that.

You're not supposed to be alone as it were with someone who you're not married to. People uphold that, people don't, but that's the ruling. So yeah, they were there for that to like minimize that, being alone with somebody. Right.

And you just have like five minutes, maybe not more than that. Really? To speak to this person. To make sure that they're not, what are you supposed to decide in that five minutes? If you want to marry them.

What are they telling? Like, make sure, what are you even supposed to ascertain? I can't even remember what I spoke about. Oh my gosh. Five minutes. I can't even remember what I spoke about in that moment. Some people think that you got married there because you were allowed to leave

the women's residence. And I know that you're like, oh gosh, why do people think that? Because you were allowed to leave the women's home? So it's not that I was allowed to leave it. She sent me to go and get internet because the story is the Saudi Arabian woman, she was never supposed to be there forever. She had a guy who I think he was Kurdish that she wanted to marry. But because she was Arabic, they wanted her to marry someone. Arabic. They didn't want her to like go off with this Kurdish man. So they were not allowing her to get married. The Kurds fought ISIS, but were there Kurds in ISIS too? Oh, there were a lot of Kurds.

It was the Peshmerga Kurds that fought against ISIS. But yeah, of course, there were a lot of Kurdish people who were there. They were just not letting her marry the guy. I think she had dialogue with him before she came to Syria or whatever. She just knew who she wanted to marry. It wasn't a matchmaking service for her. In fact, I think she had ran away for that person. Like, basically, she had started speaking to him while she was in Saudi.

He was already there fighting. so it's, I don't know if they fell in love online or something like that, but she had met him, decided she wanted to marry him, she was coming there for him. They were not allowing that to happen. This woman was a shadow of her former self. She was in despair. She wasn't leaving the room or anything like that.

Now, when we first got there, we weren't allowed to have our phones on us. The girls that kept hold of the phones had got married and gone off. I became to know where the phones were because I was someone who was there who was there for like weeks. Girls got married and went within days of being there. So I was like a consistent figure kind of thing. You built seniority up really fast. Yeah. She was familiar with me.

Everyone else has to get to know them all over again. But me, it's like, oh, I know you. You've been here for, I don't know how many. Well, I stayed there in entirety for like eight weeks. Yeah, you've been here for a good four, five weeks, whatever. I know you. I came to know where the phones were because she was Canadian or whatever. She got married and I knew where the phones were.

Anyway, the Saudi Arabian woman, as I said, she just went back into her shell. She wasn't leaving her room. And she asked me to go and get internet for her one day. Now, how it worked in Syria was, if you live close to a internet cafe, you just go and buy a code and you just connect to their web page and put the code in and you've got internet. I see. So she wanted internet. She sent me the first time. And when I was walking to the internet shop, I seen the Caribbean woman's daughter, the one that I traveled over into Syria with.

I seen her daughter and I was like, oh my God. Like, where's your mom? Like this is a miraculous thing that I bumped into them. Small world, yeah. Sent from heaven. You know, because I said to you before, she was very vocal about, I don't even know what I'm doing here. Like, I don't want to be here kind of thing.

But she went with her husband. She was heavily pregnant. It was different for her. She had her love who was there in her heart. I understand that. He's her husband from her home country. They love each other. So it's not mine ever matter for her because she loves this guy.

Anyway, she's like, look, I don't know if I want to be here. She was saying all of these things from Gerabalus. When I left Gerabulus, she didn't come to Raka because she was married, yeah? So we parted ways there. I gave her my number in Durabalus, but I never heard from her. Like I said, I just seen her daughter in the park and I was like, oh my God, where is your mom? This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Her mom was sitting on the bench.

And the first thing I said to her was, do you still want to leave? She's like, oh my God, I want to escape so badly. And I said, me too. I'm at the house. I don't want to be here anymore. what, how do we go about this? She said, look, what are you doing now? I said, look, she's literally just sent me to get internet.

And then I showed her where the internet shop was. She showed me where she lived. It was all very close. The streets in Syria, they're long, but there's a lot on there. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, sure. Yeah, she lived there and the internet shop was on there, but like, it's a long-ass street.

She said, come with me now. I said, I've got nothing. I have got nothing. I've just come to get internet. And she's like, well, I don't do much. I'm just literally in the park all the time. But however I live here, I'll wait for you in the park. every day.

And if I'm not here, I live there. So I knew where it would be. Her husband was training as well. She was like, my husband's not at home. If her husband was there, I wouldn't have been allowed there. Sure. So I said, look, I don't know. Maybe she's going to send me to get internet.

Maybe I'm going to jump over the wall. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I will just give me a few days, right? I'll be back. After a few days when the internet had run out, the Saudi Arabian woman, she was like, Britain, you need to go and get me internet. I was like, oh my God, yes. That was my chance. That was my chance.

I had our passports with us because they never took them off us. I don't know why. A lot of people ask why did they not take your passports? I can't answer that question. A lot of people did their own little ceremony of burning their passports when they got there. So I don't know if they thought that they didn't have to. But I had my passports. Grab the passports.

Grab like the essentials. Yeah. My phone. And yeah, went, met up with the woman from the Caribbean, left the house, never ever went back to that house again. Ever. hid out in her house for like no more than three days, no more than. I'm surprised they weren't looking for you. Well, they were.

Okay. They were. But they wouldn't have known where I was. Right. And do you know, the thing is, I'll get into the escape. But just to get onto your, I'm surprised I weren't looking for you kind of thing. I met up with the Caribbean woman in Turkey. So I escaped before her because she didn't have the courage to come with me.

She was like, I'm going to see if you make it first. I was like, look, I'm not staying. They're going to kill me if they find me. I need to go. Escape. Met up with her in Turkey. And she said, the day after you escape, One Indonesian woman that me and her knew of in Jerambalus that was at the house,

kind of like we knew each other, came to my house looking for you. That they had sent her. Yeah, literally, they had sent her from, because she used to live in the house in Raka with me. The Caribbean woman didn't. The Indonesian woman did. And she knew of like, oh, we used to be friends with her or, you know, kind of clutching at like straws or whatever. And they went to her house.

And looked for me. Is Raka dangerous at this point? Because are you being bombed? Yeah, there were a lot of bombs going off. That was another thing that was increasing. So that was why I was like, it's do or die. There's no perfect time to escape from ISIS held territory in Syria. No.

If you're waiting for your perfect time, you'll be waiting forever. So that was on the increase as well. When I first got there, the coalition had hardly ever bombed, but they were ramping it up. And I was like, I don't want this to sound. Well, there's no way it can sound. There is a difference between like Bashar's bombs and the coalition's bombs. Bashar's bombs are very cheap. It's very, like, you know that that bomb's.

come in. I'm not saying they didn't kill people. He killed a lot of people, a lot of carnage. But you can kind of like, oh, it's dropping there, probably shouldn't be, you know, like kind of get out of the way kind of thing. Well, maybe not avoid it like that, but you kind of have an idea. But the coalition's bomb, they were like way more deadly, way more advanced, way more expensive, way more dangerous. Bombs are dangerous. Obviously Bashar's bombs are dangerous, but these were way more. Like, they dropped in silence. And there was one night where they bombed like 30 times, one after the other. That was harrowing. Yeah. That was Petra. I thought I was going to die that night. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm surprised they didn't target that big house knowing that people were in there.

Well, that was a place that they used to target. They used to target like training camps, houses. Maybe they didn't know that that existed. I don't know. Yeah, it was never hit. Whilst I was there afterwards, I don't know. I mean, I guess they probably knew you were there if your phone had ever been turned on in that place. Do you think? Yeah. Do you think they would have known I was there. Well, it's interesting that you should say that because when I came back from Syria and I was being like interviewed by police and like all these other agencies, they said, the fact that you escaped is miraculous. If your phone did not pinpoint to the fact that you were in Racker, if we could not trace your phone to being in Raka, we wouldn't believe that you were there.

So I guess what you're saying. Yeah. Then it was there. If your phone was ever on, whether you turned it on or they turned it on, they would have known where you were. Imagine them hitting the house. Like we're going to get her. I don't think they would have tried to get you. I think they would have said, well, okay, this person escaped there. She's not a high-ranking ISIS member. Maybe this is where the foreigners are being held. I would imagine they would deliberately not target that particular place.

Do you think? I mean, yeah. Knowing that you are potentially in there. I mean, it's not a really great military target if it's just a place where a bunch of people stay for a few days who escaped there. You're more valuable back in the U.S. or in the U.K. Yeah. Why does the FBI think you were married to an American jihadi when you were there? Waiting for that one?

Yes, because, you know, right, so let's, let's, let's. When I said I had a meeting with somebody, that's the guy. Okay. And there was two meetings. I don't know if one of his family members has said to the FBI he was married to a girl. He did. He said it. What I've been told is that it was his family member that has said it, not him. Oh, yeah, no, he told a journalist that he was married to a gal.

Yeah, but he didn't go on to say who it was. He didn't name you. But then the journalist went on and did research, and it was a family member of his that said, that's who he's married to. Now, I had two meetings with this guy. You only ever have one meeting. I went back to the house and I said, look,

I'm not here to get married, okay? I can't say that to them, but I don't want to marry him. So she's like, okay, whatever. Someone else will come along. Right, after a few days, they were like, the Americans come back for you. I was like, what? You need to go meet with him again.

I went to meet with him, And he's like, look, there are some really horrible guys here. Yeah, he's not wrong. Like, you will be safe with me. Mm-hmm. Like, you should just marry me. What a sales pitch. I am the least worst ISIS fighter.

Essentially, that's what he was saying. Bottom 10 worst. That's essentially what he was saying. But, you know, there were some really horrible men that. I heard accounts from women that came back to the house that had been divorced. And stuff that they had been through was harrowing. And I think that's what he was trying to say. Like, look, there are some incredibly.

violent, men here. Like you could marry far worse than me kind of thing. Yeah. Right, you never give your answer then and there. Okay. So I was like, okay, food for thought, whatever.

You know, I'll think about it. Thanks. Thanks for coming about it. I'm not here to be married, but the pressure is on. So she said, the Saudi Arabian woman said, I'll give you a few days to think about it. She came back. I said, look, I don't want to marry him.

She said, what are you doing? Don't you see we're in the middle of war? Blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, find me someone out. But in that time, I had gone together. internet or whatever. Right. I know the American guy.

I met with him twice. And that's that. Yeah. Well, he's not around anymore, so we'll never know. No, yeah. He is, yeah. I obviously knew that because of the journalist. I knew that he had like come to pass.

But I think he was married to a Syrian woman or something. He did marry someone else. And had children. But yeah, that's my encounter with him. Gotcha. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Yas-Alazade, who escaped Iran after the Islamic Revolution. This uprising is about 43 years of oppression.

We have a corrupt regime, which is an Islamist regime, and has been torturing people. It has been denying them the basics of human rights. As you see, corruption doesn't really begin and end with hijab. It's everything and anything. It's about the dignity of making it living. None of that exists in Iran. People are poor because of this regime. hard, but they don't earn as much. It's horrendous the way people have been suffering in Iran

mentally, politically, psychologically and emotionally. I don't think an American can actually imagine what it is like to live in a country that is not just a dictatorship, not just an autocracy, but a theocracy. That's what Iran is. This is different this time. The power of social media, the power of support by the worldwide community and how Iranians are not backing down. There is uprising and protests in universities across Iran every day. This is a revolution, and it will end beautifully with a free Iran, free from the grips of Aito Laws and IRGC. For more on Iran and the recent protests, check out episode 746 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. All right, that's it for part one.

Part two coming up in just a few days, if it's not already out. things Terina will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support this show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, is quite popular amongst y'all listeners. The idea is to give you something specific, something practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships, in under two minutes every week. If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come and check it out. It is a great companion to the show. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

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