The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1040: Tareena Shakil | An ISIS Recruit's Journey and Escape Part Two

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

How does ISIS radicalize Westerners? Here, Tareena Shakil, who joined and escaped the group, reveals the manipulation behind her own recruitment. [Pt. 2/2 — find part 1 here!] What We Discuss: Tareena Shakil, a British woman, ran away to join ISIS in Syria in 2014 after experiencing domestic abuse and being radicalized online. While in Syria, Tareena realized ISIS was not what she expected and decided to escape across the border to Turkey with her young son. Tareena was arrested upon return to the UK and served three years in prison for joining ISIS. She was the first British woman to be imprisoned for joining the group. Tareena went through a deradicalization program in prison, which she found helpful in understanding how she has been groomed and radicalized. Tareena now works to raise awareness about online radicalization and grooming, showing that it's possible to learn from past mistakes and use one's experiences to prevent others from falling into similar traps. Her story demonstrates the importance of critical thinking and seeking support when feeling vulnerable. And much more — be sure to tune in to part one of this conversation here! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1040 If you love listening to this show as much as we love making it, would you please peruse and reply to our Membership Survey here? And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey everyone, after a ton of requests from you all, we're actually thinking about launching a membership, some premium content in the feed, and we need your help to make it awesome. If this membership is going to be something you'll love, we definitely need your input. We put together a quick survey to gather your ideas and feedback. It is super easy, super fast. There's a survey link at jordanharbinger.com slash survey. Your feedback is really going to help shape this membership, so I'd appreciate it if you could take a few minutes to fill out the survey. I really do need your input. Thank you so much for being a part of this. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. There's like three ISIS fighters there. This can't be where it ends. I just ran. With every footstep, maybe I'm out of his range. If he shoots from there, can he hit me? At that precise moment, a jeep full of Turkish soldiers drove past.

I remember it so clearly I was panting like a dog. He just kept saying to me, you're safe. Breathe, breathe, breathe. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better

informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional former jihadi, economic hitman, astronaut, or hacker. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, and of course I appreciate it when you do that, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics such as persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime and cults and more. Help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

If people are wondering where to dive in, just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Now today, part two with Tarina Shaquil, who ran off and joined ISIS. If you haven't heard part one yet, you're going to want to go back and listen to that because you've got to get warmed up for the level of kind of bang your head against the wall foolishness that is required to run off and join ISIS. Sorry, Tarina. I know you're listening to this. You're a sweetheart. But here we go. Part 2 with Tarina Shaquille. So tell me about your actual escape. Because you were pretty close to getting caught, which is terrifying.

So, I hid out at the woman's house, the Caribbean woman's house for, like I said, no more than three days. But in the meantime, we don't know where to go, how to go. You're not allowed to travel around Syria. Like I said, the ISIS fighters, they're not allowed to travel. You have to have permission. And as well, like, when married women are not, like, you're not just allowed to be walking around. No, of course. Absolutely not. So she said that the guy in the internet shop at the other side of the street where she lived speaks really good English. She was like, he talks like you. Let's not tell him that we want to escape, but let's just go and like, have a conversation with him

and just try to draw out whatever information we can from him in like a clever kind of way. I said, okay, don't worry. Went to the internet cafe, the Syrian guy was there. I don't know why, but I looked at him and I could trust him. He had a very kind face. He spoke English like me. He wasn't English or British, but, you know,

when you go to like Arab countries or even other countries, people speak English with an accent, he spoke it fluently with no accent. So he was like a four. an educated Syria. He must have studied outside of Syria, but like, I don't know. So he immediately resonated with him. I didn't straight away go in for the, oh, I'm trying to escape kind of thing.

Yeah. I can't remember. We just struck up a conversation with him. He had the only internet shop that had a landline because all the other towers had been blown up. And I was like, right, I can speak to my mom on the phone for the first time. That's the first time I spoke to my mom on the phone because WhatsApp then. We only exchanged messages on WhatsApp, no phone calls.

You probably could have exchanged phone calls on WhatsApp then. but I don't know. We just didn't. It was just messages, yeah? So I rang her. What was she, what was that? Oh, I broke down crying. I was like, Mom, I want to come home.

I can't do it. I don't know what I'm doing. Mom said your dad's coming to get you out. Don't worry. Oh, I don't think so. I said he's going to get us killed. Yeah. My dad is the most outspoken, liberated.

No ISIS fighter is telling my dad anything. He thinks he's going to roll into Syria and be like, I'm taking my daughter. He thinks he's going to fight them, literally. I said, listen, they will kill me. They will kill everybody. Are you crazy? mom's like, well, dad said he's coming. There's nothing that, like, you can do.

He needs to come and save you. I said, listen, you do not understand that once you get here, every single person has to go, like men, has to go under mandatory training for at least three weeks. So what is he going to do? Go and train with ISIS. You'll get bloody arrested. Are we all going to get arrested?

Come on. I mean, as a dad, I get it. Yeah, yeah, literally. Yeah, literally. Even if you have to join ISIS in the process. But there's a lot of legal implications as well. And at the same time, Dad, you are not listening. listening to anybody. He wouldn't care that it's a nicest fighter. I know you probably think,

Oterini, are just saying that. No, it's the truth. He wouldn't care. No, I have a two-year-old daughter. I would do this for... Literally, he would have tried to fight them. So I was like, no, mom, don't send dad. Like, I'm trying... I'll find a way. Anyway, desperate. Struck up a conversation with the Syrian guy about random other things. And like I said, I just knew that I could trust him. So I said, how do you travel around Syria? He said, well, mainly people go by bus, but you can't travel without a paper. And if you're not married, you can't travel. I just said to him, can you come with me and pretend to be like my uncle, my dad, because he was like older, like to say husband wouldn't have, would have looked a bit weird because I was that really

young looking and he was like quite old looking. It just, it would have been weird. I could tell by his face that he wanted to help. He said, sister, they will kill me and you both. I can't. I want to help you by I can't. He said, do you have any problems with Dola? Dola means the state. I said, no, no, no. There's no problems. The what? Dola means the state. He said, do you have any problems with Dola? Are you in trouble with them? I said, no, I just need to go to drop. I didn't say I was leaving. I said, I need to get to another point in Syria.

I'm sorry, I can't help you. Okay, but you travel by bus. Yes, that's how we travel. Right. Got in a taxi to the bus station. Now, I have no idea where I'm going. The only reason I know where I'm going is because when I went in, if you remember, I said that there was like these ISIS fighters training as soon as I got in.

But there was like a sign. And the name of that place was called Barb Limon. And that in Arabic translates to English as the door of lemons. So I remember thinking, what a weird name for a place. This little town is called The Door of Lemons. Stalk with me. I knew that that place is where the border is because it's where I came. And I knew that there's a training camp there as well, yeah?

So I just know I need to get to Barb Limon because it's right close to the border and I'll be able to run across the border. That's my plan right now. Wow. There are worse plans. Well, so I got to the bus station with the Caribbean woman, her daughter, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, I need to get to Durabalus. I didn't say Bar Blamon because I didn't want to hold on. There's nothing there.

It's farmland and there's a training camp there. What are you doing there? So I said, look, I need to get to Jerobulus, which was close enough to Bableimon. And he said, look, buses are done for the day, come back tomorrow. So we went back to her house, stayed there. I remember saying to her, I said, look, after morning prayer, I'm going. Are you coming with me? She said, oh, I don't know.

Remember, she's got her husband there. Literally. She's heavily pregnant with his first child about to give birth. As well, she was scared. Of course she was scared, you know. And she said, look. Let's go the day after tomorrow. I said, look, they're looking for me.

They will kill me. I don't have the time like you have. I said, look, after Fajar, after morning prayer tomorrow, I'm going to the bus station. I went without her. I prayed the morning prayer. I went out into the streets of Raka. It was probably six in the morning. Because the morning prayer time changes.

It was probably six in the morning. Flagged the taxi down. He took me to the bus station. And when I got there, I said, I'm going to Jerobulus. The guy said, we have no direct buses to Jerobulus. You need to change it. Membage. Can I see your water, your paper?

I said, I don't have it. And he's like, oh, no, no, no, you're not allowed on the bus then. You need to go and speak to these two guys. Two guys that were ISIS fighters sat in front of a big, massive black flag. But it was like a marketplace as well. The bus station was in a marketplace. So you're buying apples, bananas, all of these things. So I'm like, oh, my God.

There's no way I'm getting past these guys. But let me just try it. You sure. Let me just, I don't know what I'm going to say, but I can't stop now. It's do or die. So I went up to the table. I said, look, I need to travel permission. And he said, no, you're not allowed to travel.

Where's your husband? I said, he's in the training camp in Bob Limon, right? Remember, I've seen a training camp coming in. There's no husband that's training there. I just remembered that there was a training camp there. Sure. I said, I haven't seen him. What are you doing?

Everyone else has been reunited with their husbands. I've been here for eight weeks, nine weeks, and I haven't seen him. Is he dead? You know, I was just going for it. What is going on here? Where is he? I need to find him. I don't know why.

This is another, throughout this story, there are things that happen that you will be like, Tarina, stop. Hand on heart, no lie, genuinely happened. The ISIS fighter was like, can you just go and get on the bus? Like, just go, go. He shooed me away. So I went and got on the bus. I was like, what?

How did that happen? Literally. God, hand of God. So you mentioned bus drivers taxis. So is ISIS doing like the security for the whole area, but there's just regular people who are stuck there now? So there were Syrian people that lived there. Oh, man. They had Syrian ID.

They cannot come and go because they're Syrian, you know? Imagine being stuck there and you're just like, guess we're not in this secular dictatorship. Now we're in a theocracy that's just as crazy or worse. A lot of the Syrian people were scared. They didn't stay because they loved ISIS or they wanted to do it. They stayed because where do we go? We're poor as hell. They might not want to go and be refugees wherever.

Do you want to be a refugee? I don't want to be a refugee. They're in their home. They got their business. Of course they're in their home. They got their little business. We don't trouble like ISIS. They don't trouble us.

I might have to grow a beard. I don't mind doing that. I've got my little family. You know, no one's going to harm me if I just act normal. Right. But a lot of them, yeah, the love wasn't real from the heart. It was fake. And I don't say that in a way like, oh, they give fake love.

I said that in a way, that's what I have observed. It was like, we just put up with that kind of thing. Well, they're used to it. And I'm sure they don't love their dictator either. Well, it's like Bashar al-Assad or these lot. You choose, which one's worse, yeah? Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

Who knows? But it's kind of. Okay, so they shoe you onto the bus. Yes. Are there checkpoints and stuff? Yes. So how does that... So I knew there was going to be checkpoints because the guy from the internet cafe that I asked to come with me said this checkpoints.

He said you're not going to make it through them. Yeah. So I'm thinking that now and I'm anticipating the first checkpoint. I see the first checkpoint in the distance. By the way, on the bus is just me and other Syrian people. And one of the women said in Arabic, I can understand. I can understand. Oh, yeah.

Very well. They said, look, she's, a Mahjira means a migrant, look after her. Let's take care of her as much as we can. They never spoke to me. I just heard them say that about me. Anyway, we got to the checkpoint and I'm like, please God, like praying, please God, please God, please God, don't let it end now, don't let it end now. Shaking, shaking.

The ISIS fighter come onto the bus. All he did was just literally look around. He didn't ask to see anybody's paper. He didn't ask to see anybody's Syrian ID card. Nothing. He spoke for maybe one minute to the driver. in Arabic, I don't even know what they were saying. I couldn't tell you.

Got off the bus, let us go. And I'm like, oh my God. Al-Hanthalha, thank God. Wow. Come to the next checkpoint. I'm like, please, God, please don't let it end here. Just guide me back to England. I'm sorry for whatever I've done.

You know, making all of these prayers, I'll never do anything like this again. God, please, look, just save me. So we got to the second checkpoint. Same thing happened. Didn't ask to see anybody's papers. Just spoke to the driver in Arabic, whatever. Third checkpoint, he didn't even come on. They just said to the driver, keep going.

I don't know if they had radio. on from the previous checkpoint. I don't know why, but they didn't stop us. We got to Membage. When we were at Membidge, they said, there's not a bus that goes to Durabalus. You need to get in a taxi. They got me a taxi.

I shared a taxi with these two other Syrian women that were on the bus with me. And they got off at, it was like a refugee camp somewhere near on the outskirts of Membidge. And when they got out the taxi, I said to the taxi driver, I'm going to Durabalus.

And he said, I can't just drive with you like this. I need, you can't. just travel with an unmarried man, an unmarried woman. So he drove to his house and got his wife and children. Oh, because it's ISIS territory. Well, yeah. So he needs to like keep up Sharia. Well, if someone stops us, you're alone with this.

Come on, you're alone with this woman. It's like, you know, when there's a dictatorship, it's like prove your innocence. Throughout history, if you've ever seen a group like ISIS or dictatorship, they don't want to prove you innocence straight away. They say something and that's what it is. No, you're alone with this woman. So you must be doing something wrong. It's not like, okay, we'll listen to your reasoning.

Right. Instantly, something wrong. Harsh punishment. You know, I think if we've seen that in history, I have. I love history, look through it. Sure. You know, they're not lenient people. So, yeah, got his wife and kids in the car and we drove.

After a little while, I said, look, I'm going to Bablemon. And he said, what are you doing there? Obviously, he knows it's desert land, everything like this. I said, look, there's a training camp there. My husband's there. I just need to find him. I didn't spend none of the money I had with me. So I said, look, I'll give you, I don't know, it was like $50 or like $100.

It's a lot of money to them. So I said, look, I'll give you double whatever you would normally charge. Just take me there. We drove through checkpoints. No one stopped. But I think there was only one checkpoint. We went down all these country lanes. After like maybe an hour and a half of driving, he said, look, I've been driving without a purpose for like ages now.

Soon we're going to come to the biggest checkpoint because we're near the border. I won't be able to go through this checkpoint. You can't just pass through here. You need to tell me where I'm going. I said, OK, just drive for a little bit. I had no idea what to do now. So I'm praying. I'm like, please God, please God, don't let it end here.

Again, another one of them things where it's like, Treen, are you lying? Or are you telling the truth? Hand on heart, not lying. His wife said, in Arabic, randomly to him, oh, yeah, there's Turkey. I heard her. But it was like, you know, distant.

Like, have I really heard that? So I said to her, what did you just say? She said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's turkey right there, where them trees are. It's not Syria anymore. I said, stop. Stop the car. He stopped his car. I like.

grabbed whatever I had, threw like the money on the back seat and he sped off to the point where you could see like the debris. You know like mud splattering. Yeah. Yeah. He's gunning it out of him. He knew. He knew like what. He knew like what. I really shouldn't have put him in that situation but like how what else could I have done? I don't know what else I should have done. But he would have been in major trouble. Major trouble. Major trouble. He would and look he risked it all for like what? No more than a hundred American dollars or whatever. Or he probably also realized that you were escaping. No, he knew, but like, why he didn't want to help me for the purpose of, look, this stranger, do I help her or I'm going to die?

No, the money would have had an influence as well. Of course it would have, you know. But he had a kid with you too. Oh, he knew. For sure, he knew that, look, this girl's not going to this training camp or whatever. Why did he go and get his wife and kids? He knew something was going on. Look, he helped me.

It is what it is. Thank him forever. Got out, stood there, to the left of me, a few hundred yards. as it were, there's like three ISIS fighters there, all with their back to me, arguing with each other. And I'm like, this can't be where it ends. I just ran. I just ran to the place where the trees were.

And as I got to the border, it's like kind of barbed wire with mord on top of kind of thing. It wasn't like the deserted land when I came in. It was a different part. So again, another miracle is at that precise moment, a jeep full of Turkish soldiers drove passed. And I was like, oh, help. They seen me. So they got out the car. They originally thought that I was Syrian because they were like, go, go back. We don't want you here. You can't come here. I said, no, I am British. And I showed them my passport. And he could see, obviously, United Kingdom or whatever. He didn't ask no questions. He just put his arms out. I passed him,

my son. Then the other one grabbed me over. Oh, man. You must have breathed this sigh of relief. Well, well, well, well, when we were there, the first thing I did was I turned around and looked at fighters. They hadn't even budged. They were still arguing. And I said to the Turkish soldier, I said, if he shoots from there, can he hit me? Because as I'm running, I'm thinking, with every footstep, maybe I'm out of his range of shot, or with every step I'm further away from him, that's my rationale. So I said to him, look, if he shoots me, will, from there, will he hit me? He said, they're not going to shoot. Are you crazy? Like, they're not that brave. If he shoots, we'll shoot him back. Right. And he said to me, look, you're safe now. You're safe. He just kept saying to me, you're safe.

breathe, breathe. I remember it so clearly. I was panting like a dog. I was like, he said, no, calm down. You're safe. No one can hurt you now. And I was just started crying uncontrollably. I couldn't believe I had made it.

Everything was going through my head. I'm going to get to see my family. Oh my God, I'm safe. I made it. It was happy is not the word. I don't have the word. I don't have the word. I was in another world of happiness.

They bring you to what, like a detention center? Yes. Is it like a prison? What is it place like? It's a detention center that's kind of like not big enough to be a prison, but like a police station. Okay. If you think of it like that, me and other people were detained. I was the only person there that was caught coming back from Syria.

Everyone else was caught going to Syria. Yeah. So they got caught trying to escape to Syria. Did you tell them, hey. I'm so glad you asked me that question because I did. There were, I cannot remember what country they were from. They were India, but spoke brilliant English like myself, yeah? Sure.

look, you've been saved because they were like, woe is me. I said, you've been saved. You should thank God. They were like, you're wrong. I said, how can you argue with me? You haven't been there. I was there. And there was a woman from Uzbekistan as well.

I had the same conversation with. She was like, sister, you're crazy. We would have died to be there and you came back. I said to her, you are crazy because you want to go there. You're not listening to me. I'm telling you. Thank God that you got caught here. to thank God.

She said, no, we can change the things there. I said, you're not changing nothing, please. Well, you're deluded. Come on, sister, stop it. Right. But they looked at me like I was crazy. Man, were they also recruited by somebody online, essentially? Again, a lot of people had family there.

I see. Very rare that there was people like myself. So they had the Uzbekistani woman, she had like brothers over there or something like that. And the Indian family, I can't remember, but people were. Wow. You're in this for how long in the detention center? I think six weeks. Wow, that's quite a wet.

It's a really long time, yeah. I was going out of my mind there. I bet. But you were safe at least. Yeah, safe, hopefully coming back to England. It was never like 100% that I was ever going to be allowed back here. They obviously did their checks, whatever it is that they had to do. I see.

So they fly you back on the plane to the UK. At this point, are you thinking, okay, I'm going home and I'll be arrested at some point, but it was better than dying and a bombing in Syria? Or did you think like, oh, I'm going to put all this behind me and just join my regular life? Whilst being in Syria, like there were police liaison officers that worked with my family very closely. And every single time, they would say,

when you speak to Tarina, tell her that it's not too late if she wants to come home. We just want her back safe. She's not in any trouble when she comes back. We just want to talk to her, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Okay. Now, I am not the first person to come back from Syria or the last, but I was the first to be put in prison.

women, right? Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So I had no reason to doubt that. Okay, as a police officer, she's saying I'm going to be okay. So I'm getting deported. Of course I'm going to be spoken to. But I didn't know I was in as much trouble as I was just because it was said, look, we just want to speak to you.

Yeah. In any trouble, we just want to know what you might have seen out there. We just want to know all of these kind of things. So I thought that I could get to move on with my life. Yeah. I had no idea that what was going to happen happened. So you get arrested and then what did you tell the police of that? airport that you got kidnapped or something like that? I said I was trafficked into Syria. I see. Okay.

That I met these people on the beach and can yeah, it was a lie. The reason I did, I should not have done that. The reason I did that is because look, obviously they removed my child from me. He was placed, not with family. Oh, really? They didn't let your parents come get him? My parents didn't let. His dad, none of them. He was placed a stranger. So I was telling these lies with the hope of we can get him back. I've never been in trouble before with the police. I've never been anything like that. I don't know how this works. We've never been. involved with social services, we call them over here, child protection, they're going to let him come home. Yeah. So I lied like that thinking, if I was to say that I went over to Syria,

they're going to think she's crazy. They'll never let me get him back. So I lied for that purpose. Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison? You know what's better than hard time in a Turkish prison? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all of these great authors, thinkers and creators and people who ran off and joined ISIS every single week. It is because of my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I am teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself over at six minute networking.com. This course is about improving your relationship building skills. Yes, it works at the office. Yes, it works in your personal life. Yes, it works if you're retired. I get a lot of excuses

from you guys, as you can tell. But more importantly, the course does all of this, accomplishes this relationship building skill set for you by giving you systems. It makes it really easy. It's not cringy. It's not awkward. It takes a few minutes a day. That's it. And many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six minute networking.com. Again, it's free. I don't have anything to sell you. Now, back to Tarina Shaquil. Okay, and the trial does not go in your favor, right? The judge had some choice words. Obviously, look, I ran away to Syria. There's a lot of aggravating things. But he was

very accepting of the fact that, look, this girl has been through horrendous domestic violence. This girl is, while it doesn't excuse what she did, and I'm not saying, that that does excuse, it's an explanation rather than an excuse. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. The jury just thought, okay, well, she did this willingly. The whole thing was played out in the media. The trial was the last little bit. Yeah. So it's like we've got the eyes of the world on this trial. What do we do with people who run away to Syria? No, they made an example out of you for sure. Well, yeah, absolutely. And like I said, there was like 50 women that had been come back before me that hadn't been put in prison and all of the,

and it was a lot to do with the media or whatever. But look, I did run away to Syria. That's the fact. What's with all the, not just you, but there's a lot of gun photos. You know, it's like, here's a selfie with an AK-47. That's like an ISIS thing. What are they doing with that? Is that just like...

I think it's when you're from a country that like we wouldn't get an AK-47 here. Like, you would never... It's like, no, you're not allowed guns in this country. So if you're seeing a gun, it's like, yeah, should we be cool and pose with a gun? I know that's stupid. But that's the first thing people want to do over there when they see an AK-47 because you're not seeing one of them in France. So it's like, yeah, let me just take a cool picture with it.

You know, which is, I know, I know, I know, I know. Yeah, didn't look good. The jury did not think that that photo was as cool. I hate them photos. They're not called. No, but them pictures, right? Okay, I didn't send them anywhere. The reason that they're in their thing is because they were on the phone.

You know, and I know, look, it's all to do with the environment that we were living in. That was what we were living in. And that was what was around us. Look, have I ever taken a picture with an AK-47 before? Absolutely not. I appreciate your candor. Absolutely not. You know, it's just, look, that's what it was.

I do appreciate your candor. It's definitely like, I can just imagine you being like, oh, God, why did I take those photos? Absolutely. The worst one is the one with the balaclavar on. Oh, yeah, yeah. Why? What? Well, you were, you know, when in Raqa, do as, yeah, when in Rome, do as ISIS does.

I mean, that was just. No, that's the one that I feel sick when I see that picture. I'm sure you do. Don't. Don't use it in this podcast. I will not. No, you can if you want. It is what it is.

It is what it is. I might for the YouTube version. Yeah, do it. Most of my audience is audio only. Only like 1% is YouTube. So only 1% will see the Bala Club. I hate that. And I always think to myself,

maybe one day I'm going to get them pictures removed, but you can't. They're in the public domain. No, those aren't going anywhere. Oh, I hate it. I hate it. And every now and then when someone wants to troll me, they're like, send that picture to me.

And I'm like, yeah. You know, you've heard me more than swearing at me by sending that picture. Yeah, well, there's one Halloween costume you can never wear. Disgusting. Literally, now we're not doing that again. Yeah, you'll end up back in prison. Never.

So you serve three years of a six-year sentence. And during the time, you're going through this, what sounds like a great idea, it's like a deradicalization program. Did the program help you? What was that all about? So at first I was like, I don't need none of this. I know why I ran away. It was because my ex-husband.

I kind of like just went along with it. But after like the first few sessions, for me it was therapy. Because you speak about every last thing. Yeah. From childhood to the domestic violence thing that's happened, every last thing you get to speak about it. They get to the root of the problem. Yeah, they get to the root of it. I understood things in their entire.

I understood like, oh, hold on, yeah, yeah, this happened because of that, because there's loads of reasons why people are groomed. When you've been groomed, you don't think, yes, I've been groomed, you don't know about that. I know a lot about it now because that's my area of interest. But at the time, they come out with these phrases, or so they're my ideology and secluded people. Well, you don't know that that's a real thing. So it gives you a great understanding of, oh, actually, this is what happened to me. That's very useful in terms of moving forward with life because how do you know you couldn't be groomed again? I couldn't. How does someone know that that couldn't happen? It makes you very aware.

Whilst being in prison, I went through like domestic violence programs that teaches you all about perpetrators of domestic violence. And you learn things and it's like, oh, okay, that's why that happens. And then like there's loads of different figures like the dominator, the this, the that. And you understand it. Yeah. It gave me a great understanding of it. Did you at one point go, oh, I was actually radicalized and I just didn't realize it? So I said the first time I realized I was groomed was when like one of my legal team, said, look, he's responsible for over 300 people running away to Syria. So that was the first time, like, this grooming thing started to become like a, okay, idea. But this whole thing, so really deep seeds of, like, you're going to go to hell if you live in England.

Like, that stuff was deeply planted in me. Yeah. It wasn't until I was in prison one day. And I used to go to, like, the Islamic classes. And because I never left my faith or anything like that. We went to the Islamic classes. And there was an Imam there, who was a great guy, lovely guy. I got him really well with him.

We're just talking like we'd learn the Quran and I loved it because I'm like, right, I'm learning it properly. Like this is what this actually means. I really loved it there. And we come to talk about going to hell or something. And I said to him, I already know I'm going to hell. And he's like, Tarina, come on, subhannah, we don't, it's Haram. We don't say them.

We don't know who's God's going to send hell. We don't say them things. I said, no, I am going to hell. And he said, how do you know that? How can you be so sure? And I said, anyone who migrates for the sake of Islam, but then goes back, God is at war with that person. So I know I'm going to hell. He literally, he just put his head on the floor. He had tears in his eyes. He was like, do you genuinely believe that?

I said, yeah, that's what's going to happen. He said, no, Tarina, that's not what happens. And after that, he kept me really under his wing and was like, right, Tarina, we're going to just tell me what else it is that you believe. I'll go through the Ayat of Quran. Like the verses of the Quran will speak about it. I'll speak about this Hadith. He really looked after me, bless him, because it upset him. He had tears in his eyes. Yeah. So that was an amazing thing. I learned a lot through him in prison as well. Yeah, there's some things that are sewn really deep that like it took a long time to unpick as it were. I can imagine. There was a lot to unpack as we say. Yeah. Some people right now probably think, and I don't agree with this just for the record. They probably think, oh, she's still a terrorist sympathizer at some level. What do you say to those people? Because it's got to be, well, first of all, do you understand their perspective? Like, I ran off and joined ISIS. Of course, I totally understand why people would think that. It's like, come on, you made that decision, you still believe that, you came back.

You know, I get it. 100% I totally get it. And I understand that when you hear the story and someone says, well, I ran away because I was a victim of domestic violence. I understand that people would be like, well, yeah, you don't run away to Syria. I get that. Someone's going, hey, I was a victim of domestic violence. You know what I did? I spent too much time on social media.

I understand that. I agree with that. I understand that. But look, we all break differently. And that was how I broke. That's the only explanation I have for that. But with regards to them saying, look, she's a terrorist, sympathize, blah, blah, whatever. Like, I put myself on the line every single time to raise awareness about this.

I get nothing from that. Well, you get something from it. It's just nothing good. Well, yeah, but no, like, I don't get paid, like, a lot of money for that. I don't get paid money. I don't get. I do it because I want to help to raise awareness. Nobody is like you.

I don't work for the government. I do this all of myself. Yeah. I put myself on the line. I get some vile, nasty messages from people, as you can understand. That's what I meant. Who cares, whatever. Like, it is what it is.

You get negative comments on YouTube. Yeah, absolutely. Negative comments on YouTube. But I do that, put myself out there, which is not easy to do. Some of the messages I get, like, have made my heart stop at times. So why would a person want to do that? Like, when I get nothing from it, other than the fact that they want to help. I don't enjoy receiving the nasty messages.

I don't enjoy a random person saying, hey, you should hang yourself. I do this. I put that to the side because I want to help people. Why? Because, look, I have been. to hell and back, yeah? And I had the strength to pull myself back up because I have a great family,

I have a great faith, I was able to. There are girls that have killed themselves that couldn't make it through this, yeah? If I can stop just one person, it will never be worth it, but me speaking out is worth it because other people are not as strong as I am. I get messages from people who are like,

Terina, I am the mother of a 12, 13 year old. Thank you so much for speaking out because, look, A, I didn't know about grooming like that. Now I'm going to start paying more attention because obviously, look, we're living in a climate where the world is in a crazy place right now, should we say, right? And things are, they're very divided, should we say. And they're like, look, I need to keep an eye on what's going on on my 13-year-old's iPad.

Thank you for speaking out. So that's why I do it. People are always going to say, look, she's still this, blah, blah. I escaped of my own free will. Nobody brought me back kicking and screaming. So why would she do that when she knows that? they would kill her. At one point, I was faced with the decision of, I either get caught by Bashar al-Assad or I get caught by ISIS. If I get caught by Bashar al-Assad, I'm not even going to

say here what he would have done to me. Yeah? Let's not go down that route because I don't want to think of that. I get caught by ISIS. Okay, what, they'll probably kill me in a less torturous. Look, I'm making this, summing this up in my head. You don't do that if you still support. You'd think, right, well, I'm going to die here with them and go straight to heaven. You would, of course. But yeah, people are always going to say that and think that. There's nothing I can do about that. That's true. You know, are you worried that ISIS might be encouraging people to leave the UK training them and then they have them come back to the UK as like die hard terrorist? Because some people are afraid of that. I don't know how active ISIS is these days. I know

they're still around. I mean, look, it'd be really hard for people to get back into like the UK or whatever. Presumably then people have been out of the UK for a long time. So like you'd come, you have to answer questions, things like that. I've seen on the news yesterday that like ISIS is responsible for an attacking Afghanistan on some Spanish tourists is still a problem that's really there. I think with regards to the threat that Western countries are at, it would be more someone being inspired by online grooming rather than ISIS sending people back. I think it's a lot more difficult to send people back. Definitely a lot more difficult. Send people back who've been trained than inspiring someone via their iPad. That's true. That's true. So that's the biggest threat, which is why, again,

I do the whole raising awareness around online safety because it's online. Most of the recruiting, radicalization, whatever, it's mostly online. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. That does make sense. Has it been hard for you to find jobs? Because I would imagine having gone to join ISIS is not a good thing to show up in a background check from an employer. It's really not.

Look, I was working at a place. I did my ITV documentary. They said, look, a few of the people feel uncomfortable with you working here. That's fine. I'll leave. I get it. Working. Working. I was working at, I won't go into it, like what I was doing. I was working at a place.

And they were like, look, a few people have a senior documentary, whatever. They didn't have comfortable with you working here. So I said, okay, that's fine. I can leave. But then I've worked for people who were like, so when I did the ITV documentary, I had two jobs. I had a morning, one, an evening one. So I was really like hard working at that time. And the evening job, I said to the guy, oh, just before the documentary come out, I said, look, there's going to be a documentary with me on it. I just need to tell you, it's about this. But that's the first time I told him about the whole life of Syria thing. I said, I'll leave right now if you want me to. He said, you're not going anywhere. Don't be stupid. I said, look, I don't want to work here anymore. I feel like shy. He said,

no, take a week off. Let the documentary come on because I give him pre-warning. Yeah. But just take a week off. That's it. After the documentary had been on, the day before I was supposed to go back to work, I rang him and I said, look, I'm not coming back. And he was like, are you mad? Get yourself back here right now. Like, it's not going to happen. I had that understanding with him. He knows. Look, that's not you. Tarina. You're a good girl. You know, I'll give you that chance. So, yeah. That must have felt good, though. It did.

He really supported me, bless him. Really, really supported me. So, yeah. There must have been so much fallout from that documentary coming. Because your family, I mean, surely the phone was ringing off the hook. Your daughter joined ISIS. Oh, no, it was known because of the whole media thing. Right, that's right.

The It grew up ISIS. How could I forget? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was already. But then it became, like, national news once again. I think I just got, like, messages from strangers. That's where that stuff. I see. Before that I hadn't had messages from strangers.

We answered my message. I was surprised. I was like she was probably not checking your DMs. How do you rebuild your life after something like this? I mean, one step at a time is the only strategy. So I have always found that being realistic and just being real works, look, you have to be honest about it. There's no point being defensive and like, well, no, it didn't have because of that. And it's not really my fault. Look, you don't get anywhere like that.

Be real about it. Yes, I effed it up majorly. I did. I'm sorry about that. I can't change that. Look, if Elon Musk was to create a time machine, I would be first in Q if I had the money to use it, right? I would be the first, but there isn't. And that's wishful thinking.

So what do we do? What we do is we work with what we've got and make the best of the situation. I effed up more than most people do, yeah? Messed up. But is that going to destroy me? No, I've been through major depression. I suffer from PTSD. I suffer from anxiety.

Now, do I let that win me or do I win it? No, I win it. I'm sure you get asked about this all the time. The case of Shamima Begum, I'm probably getting her name terribly wrong. She's another British woman who traveled to join ISIS. I want to say, well, there's a lot of public debate about whether she should be allowed to return to the UK. And I think she had dual citizenship, UK, Bangladesh. Yeah, she's Bengali, isn't she?

Like, that's her ethnicity. But I don't think she's never been to Bangladesh. I see. Well, somehow her UK citizenship, I think was revoked. Yeah, it was revoked. She's like basically in a Syrian refugee. refugee camp with children that she had with an ISIS fighter. I'm curious what your take is, you know, you were allowed to return here. You don't know her, right? So I'm curious what you think.

Do we rehabilitate people like that? Do we bring people like that back into society? Because it's tough. I mean, it almost seems like a fair shake is she goes to prison like you did, goes through de-radicalization like you did. But man, the court of public opinion is really hard on people like this. Right. So, look, I can't sit here and say, don't let her come home. that would be hypocritical of me because I was allowed to come home, right? I believe in redemption. I believe in second chances. I believe in rehabilitation, provided that the person wants it.

You don't know what someone's thinking. You can't tell what's in someone's mind. You don't know that if they come home, the streets are going to be safe. I'm sure they will forever be a question mark over my head. How do we know that she isn't going to do something? So the problem with people coming home is it's what can be proven in a court of law. So there might not be enough to prosecute her. And if there isn't, like she wouldn't go to prison.

She'd just be out and about. And I think that's that because I have had conversations with people who work around that. And I'm like, look, how come they don't let her come back? Like, I'm interested in it. And I think the general thing is it would be hard to prove it in a court of law because they don't know what evidence there is on her. Like they had my phone. So look, Tarina Shaquille, you're in court with being a member of ISIS or whatever,

a prescribed organization. are we going to get a guilty charge? Well, look, we've got pictures of it with an AK. Yes, we are going to get it. So they were secure in the fact that I was going to prison. Good thing you took all those photos. Well, do you know, I probably did save me. And in some sense, and we have had a situation in England where there was an individual

that claimed to be rehabilitated, had gone down the deradicalization program, was at a, I think it was a university campus, giving a de-radicalization speech to an audience that went on to commit a terrorist attack. Yeah, and like stab. Yeah, and stab like loads of people. Since then, there's just no tolerance with regards to that. I mean, there's no tolerance anyway, but like, no. Now it's, yeah, it's like a lot hard.

Absolutely. And it's like, look, we don't know what her intentions are. So the answer to your question is I would like to believe that everyone has a second chance provided that they want that. And that she just wants to come home and get on with her life. But how do you know that that's what she does want to do? It's tricky. It is. It's tricky.

I always look at her situation. and I think to myself, God, that could have been me and I'm so thankful that it's not. And I do get like, I've read in comment sections before where people have said, well, how come she was allowed, but Shemima's not? And, you know, people say all kinds of crazy things. And yeah, well, then she shouldn't have been allowed back.

But look, if we go down that line of arguing, I could then sit here and say, well, am I the only one out of 50 women that went to prison? I see. We don't go down that route. Why is it? I wasn't the first woman to come back. And I wasn't the last.

but I was the only one to be put in prison. So, you know, I could argue about that, but I don't because I'm realistic. Okay, they never went to prison. It's fine. But I did. I'm consumed with myself. I live my life. They didn't go to prison.

That's on them. That's their business. You know, so, yeah, people do go down that whole, why is she a lad back and she's not? And it's because her family are Christian and she's white and all. I read all these crazy things about myself. She's not even Muslim. She's really a government spy. I get that all the time.

That's YouTube for you. I get that all the time. I get messages from people saying, I don't believe you. Like, you're a great actress. You're a liar. You were never in Syria. Oh, my God.

Well, then why did I go to jail? Oh, you're serious. Literally, like, so many people say that. It's not real. Okay, I wish. Thank you. Yeah, that's funny. But I think with that, what it is is that, like, I'm not what people expect.

They don't expect to see that. And then I'll get messages from people who, like, pro-IS. And they'll be like, no, you're not that girl. You're ashamed. Like now, look, oh, yeah. Well, I don't know if we can care what the pro-IS crowd thinks of us, hey? Well, it's not about caring. Like, if I'm anyone, it's a nasty message, right?

And you take it on a little bit. So it's, um... That's true. Although, there are some folks you can write off, and it's usually... I think pro-ISIS is probably towards the top of the list. You know what's better than being forced into an arranged marriage with a terrorist? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what are their smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, ways to support the show are searchable and clickable. We try to make it as easy for you as possible. over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And hey, if that's not easy enough, email me Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. You can't find a code. You're not sure if we have a code. I am so happy to surface those codes for you because it is that important that you support those who support this show. And thank you for doing so. Now for the rest of my conversation with Terina Shaquille.

Your start to radicalization, it sort of began with you looking at the cause of the Palestinians and things like that online. Are you at all worried now? There's another Gaza conflict. there might be thousands more tarinas out there with good intentions, they want to support the cause, and then they end up making a sharp turn. And I'm not saying the Palestinian cause is going to do that. I'm just saying when people are vulnerable

and sympathizing with causes that are just like this, it seems like it's just a gold mine for a recruiter. Yeah, it's definitely a dangerous time. I think I said before, like we're living in a time where there is huge division. And part of like the grooming process is us and them. That's a tactic. You know, if you learn about,

grooming. Like I said, I learned through it via psychology in the DRAD program. One of the tactics is us and them. So we're living in division now. So it's a really, it is a dangerous time for vulnerable people because we're living in that climate. So yeah, I think that's why I probably make a lot more videos and do a lot more interviews because it's relevant for now. It's always relevant, but it's like, right, this message is needed right now kind of thing. It always happens. in COVID, I think in England, like the cases of referrals for prevent went up by like 30% during COVID because a lot of people were at home. So it might not be talked about a lot because it might not be in the news. But in the background, people who work in this area know about it, it's still a big problem.

So regardless of what's happening in Gaza, Palestine right now, it's still a major issue. But something like that does, of course it increases it because we're living in times of division. I can understand that. I'm so curious if we're going to see and we won't know for a. another few years. Oh, did we end up with tons more youth getting radicalized because of this? It seems like it's starting to look like that now. Just right now those people might be protesting. But in a year, do we find them in Afghanistan or Syria or something like that? I guess time will tell. Do you worry that what you did at that time gives other British Muslims a bad name? I saw a lot of comments to that effect.

What did you see? Tell me. Oh, just people saying, as a British Muslim. We don't claim her. Yeah, we don't claim her. You're giving us all a bad name. No, I'm not giving you a... Yeah, what I did. So here's the thing. If you go into my TikTok page, you will see that I make a lot of videos about Islam. Stories from Islam, praying, blah, blah, blah.

Right. Why do I do that? Because I feel major guilt that I have contributed towards this religion being viewed in a negative way. Yeah, sure. I contributed to that. Like, look, Muslims have lived with being called terrorists forever.

They are not. It's not a religion of terrorism. But then it's like, well, then you have groups like, and the Taliban, how can you not be? And it's like, look, guys, we're really on that. Come on. Like, give us a break. Yes, there are extremists in every group. And yes, maybe in Islam, they're probably a little bit more. But look, that's not what we are. Guys, like, we've been fighting this for a long time that we're not terrorists or whatever. That's rich coming from me, like, with my conviction. And you know, I get that. So that's why I make the TikToks

because I'm like, look, this is not, Islam is not that. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It is a beautiful religion. It's amazing. And I feel horrendous that I have contributed to the next. negative view of Islam and that my name is associated with something that is horrendous, you know, probably one of the most violent groups that the world would ever see. I feel major guilt for that spiritually and physically. So yeah, yeah, I feel guilty about that. 100%. You ever wish you'd just gone to the beach in Turkey and turned around and came home?

Every single day of my life. You know, I'll share a little funny story here quickly. So my mom's sister, bless her, they've never really pushed. me that much. Like I said, they are not Muslims. Muslims understand it a bit more just because of the whole concept of Hidra and not living under Sharia. They get it a little bit more. Whilst they don't love ISIS, we're familiar with them concepts, yeah? But to explain to someone who's not a Muslim, it's like, oh my God, you're not getting it at all. Muslims get it a little bit. So I was like, look, you're not going to understand why I did it or, but I was going

through domestic violence and said, and she literally turned around and said, well, you could have just gone and stayed at Nans. Like grandmas, I was like, oh no, well, I could have, but I could have. I could have. But, you know, I didn't. I wish I did have gone and say that grannies, you know. There's a spare room there. Yeah, there is. But I didn't, unfortunately. This was what happened. And I think, look, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. Nobody listening believes that, by the way. That's the one thing is they're thinking, you must be the most naive person on planet Earth. This would never happen to me. I think most people think this had never happened to me. Well, they probably would think that. But look, unless you've been in somebody's shoes, don't. I'm not saying that it can't happen to anyone. I'm saying nobody believes it until they're running over the farmland into Syria, you know, ISIS-controlled Syria.

Of course. Look, if it can happen to someone like myself that was raised like so liberally and like, even if you could do the most intense research into my background, there is nothing extremist before at all. And since, nothing at all. So where does the problem lie? One doesn't just wake up one day and say, I'm going to go and live in a war-torn country and I'm going to go and live with

ISIS. It doesn't happen. There is the process and the process is the grooming process. Now, people can say that wouldn't have happened to me. The proof is in the pudding. There was nothing before and there's been nothing since and there would never be anything ever again. So the timeframe is this. So what was going wrong in that time frame? Oh, okay, so she was married, right. Oh, she was going through domestic violence. Oh, this was happening. Like, it can be proven if that makes sense just from looking at my life. So yeah, people are entitled to their opinion. If you've never been through domestic violence, you would probably say, look, the first time my husband slapped me, I'd walk away. You can't say that unless you've been through it.

Yeah, yeah, you do. I had close family members go through domestic violence when I was a kid. And I used to say, if my husband ever slapped me, I will leave straight away. I didn't. So, you know, it's one of them. It's one of them. Until you're in something, what do they say, unless you're in somebody's shoes, don't. What, what, you can't walk it? What is it? I don't know. I was waiting for you to say, because I don't know. Don't judge it. No, not, don't judge the book by the car. Well, like, you couldn't walk a mile in my shoes or whatever it is. I don't know. But yeah. That's a great ending right there. just us stumbling over this cliche that we should both know.

I'm going to ask you a question. Sure. So there are people like myself that have come back to America. I watched a documentary on one person. We don't need to name them or whatever. Okay. But in America, what is the general opinion of that? Is it like, no, she should be back over there.

We hate her. That's a good question. I don't know who you're referring to. But there must be people, though, that have come back, right? I'm sure that there are. I'm sure that there are. I don't know. But I'm going to guess that most people say,

well if you left us to go there then you should stay over there however if you know who the person is and if they were freaking 15 years old like Shamima Begom was when she went there I didn't think she was but yeah yeah she was young no I mean the person I'm talking about the American

American oh yeah I mean it depends if you go over there when you're 30 I think it's most reasonable people would view it differently than if you go over there when you're 19 or 18 years old can I just touch on that sure so I get a lot of messages like that that say you weren't groomed you were 25 years old at least Shemima was a kid

Right. People get groomed in their 90s and 80s. There are old people that get groomed to signing people into their wills. Yeah, it's a scam. Yeah, literally like they've fallen in love with their care. I watched a documentary last week. Grooming has no age limit on it, nor is it selected via intelligence. I've had that said to me before, you're incredibly intelligent, Terina. It couldn't happen to you. It's not a matter of intelligence. I will say, I definitely expected to encounter one of the, let's just say not the brightest bulb in the box. I was. I was like, how does this happen? This person is going to come in here and I'm going to have to wipe the drool off the floor after the conversation. But you are markedly more switched on than I would have expected from somebody who went off and joined ISIS. Well, now I'm like, well, what's the problem here? What's the real reason, Torena? But yeah, no, I think that as well.

It can happen to anybody. It's not selective of age. It's not selective by intelligence. Look, it's vulnerability. We go through stuff, right? And when we go through stuff, we do things that are crazy. It's about being vulnerable. Yeah, it's about being vulnerable.

That is the main thing. People get groomed for whatever reason. People get groomed. I mean, in England, I think a while back there was a big problem with like youngsters being groomed to sell drugs. And it's like, well, do they not know that that's illegal? Well, yeah, of course they know that selling drugs is illegal. But like, do you understand what grooming gears? Grooming gears when you might have that fear like, oh, I can't just walk down the street with drugs.

I'll get arrested. But the groom is there to counteract that. Now you won't get arrested. You'd be fine. We've got you covered. And if you get arrested, don't worry. Come and get you. That's grooming.

There are people that get groomed that are, God knows what age, get groomed into transporting drugs. It's not an age thing. It's a, the groomer. It's about being vulnerable and isolated enough to fall for it. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for your candor. Thank you for having me. Really good conversation.

Thank you. There we go. Here's a glimpse of my interview with the son of a Hamas co-founder. Before a change of heart had him working undercover for Israeli intelligence against his former friends and family to thwart terrorist plots and save lives. Check it out. Hamas is an Islamic movement. My father is one of the founding members of Hamas.

Hamas for us was everything, to the point where it became an army. It's a monster. I agreed to work with Israel, with a hidden agenda, to be a double agent. The level of pressure that they had to go through, my heart stopped for approximately 30 seconds.

most of the human beings cannot make it back. I was tortured mentally and physically. Everybody in the city knew that I'm a dead man. For more, including what it was like growing up in one of the first families, of which many consider a terrorist group, and why Masab considers it the greatest school of his life, check out episode 407 on the Jordan Harbinger show. Like I said, strangely relatable in certain ways.

Like what I have run off and joined, I says, obviously not. unbelievably naive. Yes. Is she a bad person? I don't think so. You know, I really don't. I think it's sort of weird for me to say this, but this really is like youthful folly and a sheltered upbringing and some abuse mixed together in this toxic pot and magnified a hundred times with absolutely disastrous consequences. I really expected to find her less sympathetic than I did. Was I in vacation mode because I was in London doing this in person? Was the jet lag getting to me? You be the judge. You let me know. Am I crazy? Or was she just not as bad as you would expect from somebody who ran off and joined ISIS. Although one thing that stuck in my crawl, y'all,

the marriage thing. She said she didn't marry this guy. That just does not check out, right? She almost certainly did get married there. She was allowed to leave the house. She was allowed to go live elsewhere. I think she won't say so because maybe it complicates her case or maybe there's another element of shame in it. We'll never know. I didn't really want to pry into that. If somebody doesn't want to disclose that, but they're willing to admit they ran off and joined ISIS. I mean, okay, there's something else going on here that doesn't necessarily need to be public if she doesn't want that. I think. And the rumor is that she married. American ISIS fighter Russell Denison, who is now dead. He was killed by coalition bombing. Oh, well,

sorry, no sympathy for terrorists. I mean, yes, something, something human life is valuable. But, you know, terrorists are terrorists. I hope you all enjoyed this. I thought it was a lot of fun, very interesting insight. All things Tarina will be on the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, I love this. It's so much fun to write. It's so much fun to see your feedback. Every week on Wednesday, we give you something specific, something practical that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes.

It's a short read. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. You can always hit reply and reach me after every single one. Don't forget about six-minute networking as well over at six-minute networking. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also find me on LinkedIn where all the not crazy.

people seem to be lately, although that's rapidly changing. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Couldn't do this without him. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. Actually, I don't care if they're friends of yours. You could share it with people you don't even like.

That's fine. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who loves a good yarn, little story about running off and joining ISIS, you know, just teenager stuff. Typical teen stuff. Run off to Syria across the border illegally with your child and join ICE. Share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn,

and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast? If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you stop mid-dishwashing and go, wait, what that actually happened? You got to subscribe to What Was That Like? It's real people telling the most surreal moments of their lives, and they're not just giving you the highlights. They're walking you through it from the inside as the person who actually lived it,

which means you're basically getting a front row seat to the chaos. One episode is about Scott getting locked up in a foreign jail for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, Scott. Another is Sue's parachute failing. Wow, I'm surprised she was around to tell that story. And then there's Michael who was stabbed on a bus, which makes your commute instantly feel a little bit more relaxing. Do what you think? So if you want to hear some wild and inspiring firsthand stories, I invite you to check out what was that like.

Every story is verified. Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever app you're using right now. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life.

Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that, I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening.

You can thank me later.