The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1058: Nina Aouilk | Ending Forced Marriage and Honor Killings Part Two

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

End Honour Killings co-founder Nina Aouilk reveals the shocking reality of forced marriage, domestic slavery, and honor killings in the West. [Pt. 2/2 — find Pt. 1 here!] What We Discuss with Nina Aouilk: Nina Aouilk survived multiple instances of severe domestic abuse, including an attempted honor killing by her family and years of control and violence from her partner. Honor killings and forced marriages are still occurring in Western countries like the UK, USA, and Canada, often hidden within certain cultural communities. The imprisonment of Nina's father for trafficking his own child highlights the urgent need for awareness and action against human trafficking in all communities. Many victims of abuse and potential honor killings are afraid to speak out due to cultural pressures, shame, and fear, which enables the cycle of abuse to continue. There are ways we can all help combat these issues: trust your intuition if you suspect someone is in danger, ask simple questions to disrupt potential violent situations, make discreet calls to authorities if you're concerned about someone's safety, and support organizations working to end honor killings and forced marriages (like Nina's own End Honour Killings). And much more — be sure to check out part one of this conversation here if you haven’t already! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1058 If you love listening to this show as much as we love making it, would you please peruse and reply to our Membership Survey here? And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you do. get your podcasts. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. I was numb to everything. All I was watching was blood dripping off my nose into the carpet. And then I heard my other brother. It was like a muffled voice. And he said, not here. We're taking it to India. We'll kill her there. It's too risky here. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional gold smuggler, investigative journalist, rocket scientist, or music mogul. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, our episode starter packs are a great place to begin. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on.

the show, just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. All right, today, part two with Nina O'Oak. This story is absolutely incredible. It's very harrowing. Once again, probably no kids in the car for this kind of crazy tale. If you haven't heard part one, of course you need to go back and listen to that one in order to really get the most out of part two here. All right, here we go, part two with Nina Aulke.

It seems so hard for me as a dad to be like, okay, we're cutting this person off. That's such a deep level of cultural program. that it seems impossible, like thinking of me and my wife being like, oh, well, we're just not going to really talk to our daughter anymore because she's no longer, I just can't. It's not part of the program. No, I can't myself. Imagine never saying, I mean, it's just, it's a ridiculous thought that you would. I bug my daughter's the end of time.

She's in the next room. You can't even do an interview without your daughter. And I get it. I get it. It's not in our programming. It's not a normal human programming to do this. Yeah, we don't switch that love on and off. No, it's not possible.

No. It's not possible. That's what I always wonder. I always wonder. When I hear of brides being sold off, isn't the mom inconsolable for years after this? Yeah, I mean, when I gave birth, I thought about my mother straight away. I think it's a natural thing that, you know, you think your mother went through this pain to bring you into the earth. But it doesn't mean that maternal love is in everybody.

Yeah. But to deprogram it culturally, it seems impossible. But apparently it's not. So what's the plan? Just walk home one day or like take the bus and get off at a different stop? I didn't really have a plan. You know, now I have to have a plan for everything, maybe because I never had to plan back then. But one day I remember just getting up and it was after a very horrific kind of abuse in the morning from my father at 4 o'clock in the morning where, again, my arm was completely covered in bites.

And he's very controlling and very aggressive. And I thought, I don't want this anymore. I hate who I am. I got to the point where I just didn't want to be at all. And I knew that if I didn't leave, they would kill me or I would kill myself. I just had enough of life. And I looked at him, and it was the first time I'd actually looked at him after he'd raped me. I looked at him in a way to say that I'm done with you.

I'm disgusted. I don't like you and I'll never see you again. And I never have because I've never seen him again. I've walked away. And I went to work as normal that day. There was a bit more of a spring in my step because I knew that I was going home. It was like a child almost returning from school. You know, the school days nearly over you're going home.

But as soon as I stepped on that bus, it was almost like I'd set up an alarm bell because somebody had seen me from the community and it was like wildfire burning so quickly the message had gone to my parents to say she's on her way but the questions also had gone to my parents why is she on that bus has she left her in-laws is she not going back why isn't she had a child is she having an affair is she seeing somebody at work she works with a lot of white british people have they had an influence on her how could you not control what was happening. So all of these things, my parents had this almost ticking bomb, ticking away, and it was just waiting to explode until I stepped in that door. I didn't know what I was walking

into, but I knocked on the door excitedly thinking my mom would open and my father's there. And I'm thinking, why is he here? It's not even that late at the moment. He's not normally back till later on in the evening. The anger on his face was enough to tell me I'd made a huge mistake. And there's no going back. You're there and you freeze and you don't know what to do. What happened? at home or at your family's home. So this is where life, we have so many events that happen in our life, and it either makes us or breaks us, I guess. And I had to be broken down, I guess, to rebuild who I am today.

But an honor killing attempt took place is the bottom line. I was dragged into the front room, again, the same room in which I was raped. My brother was there, who's, I think, seven years older than me. My other brother wasn't there. my mother standing with my sister-in-law and they've got their arms crossed and they look really angry. A discussion had obviously taken place between them before I'd got there that they were going to perform this honour killing. And my brother started to beat me repetitively in my face till my jaw was broken. And then my father started to punch me and kick me and I was almost flinging around the room like a little rag doll

until I was that little rag doll on the floor with a broken arm, a broken jaw. I even had a bone in my leg that was protruding from the skin it hadn't cut through. Oh my gosh. But I started to understand that I was going to die here, you know, that feeling. And if anyone's ever felt that my heart goes out to them because I won't want that upon anyone. But I felt this is it. I'm going. And they started to kick me and stamp on me as I'm on the floor.

And I'm a very young, small, 21-year-old. As my brother and father are stomping on me, they displace my hip. The pain is excruciating. I can't explain it. But with that, my mother and my sister-in-law, eclectively with my brother and dad, are throwing on these heavy insults, which are so heavy I don't want to be here anymore in the sense of you should have died at birth. We knew this would happen. Now you're in the gutter. Nobody will want you. Again, those words. And words are so heavy that you can't let go of them often. They play on your mind. And I almost felt like I should be killed. You know, I felt like this is what I deserve. And then my father held his foot across my throat.

I thought he'd snapped my throat. I swear, his weight was so heavy. But I remember drifting in and out of consciousness and I almost saw myself from the outside in, which is a really important part of my story, because I saw myself in this little form of just bones like I was dying, like I had died. But something was telling me not yet, whether it was my own voice, whether it was my own voice, whether it was my subconscious, whether it was something else, I don't know. All I know is that when I went back into my body, I felt nothing. I didn't feel the punches or the kicks or even the voices. They'd all almost, I was numb to everything.

All I was watching was blood dripping off my nose into the carpet. And then I heard my other brother. It was like a muffled voice. And he said, not here. We're taking it to India. We'll kill her there. It's too risky here. And everyone, I remember seeing everyone's feet, like, walking away.

And suddenly the room's very dark. and the room stayed dark for days. I don't know which day I came to. I just know that I lay in almost a bath of my own blood. I had soiled myself. I couldn't move. I was so stiff because when you stay in the same position for too long, you're stiff. And I remember the door opening very gently

and a voice coming from my mother's friend to what I called auntie again, saying they're taking you to India on Sunday and you need to get to security at the gates and ask for help. And I thought, I'm not going to do that because I'm going to do that because I'm going to have two people with me, angry people. I haven't got the guts. I haven't got the courage. I'm just going to die.

I don't want to live anymore. I can't be bothered with this. And I had this conversation and I still don't. You know, I have these conversations in my own head. And a lot of people probably listening do as well, where you have this almost two and fro conversation of shall I, shall I, shall I not? Shall I get it? Shall I not?

Shall I buy this today? Or maybe I shouldn't. I can't afford it. You know, you have these conversations. It was a conversation about whether I wanted to live or not. Yeah, it's unbelievably casual from the sound of it. I was very weirdly calm because I think I just got to a point where I was almost accepting of what was coming. There was no panic, not at all, no panic.

And I say to people now when I coach them that if you are in your calmest state, you'll perform your best. It's that panic that makes you not think that you can do it. It's that panic that makes you mess up. So you've got to stay as calm as possible. And it's not an easy thing to do, but you can get to that state of mind. And I started to move, but moving was hard. I literally, if anyone saw me at that point, I looked like something like a horror film. And I got onto my hands and knees and I fell because my arm was broken.

I thought, how can I do this? How can I get from here to the door, from the door to the kitchen, from the kitchen to the outside, and how can I escape? Yeah. I thought I'm going to do it. With a dislocated hip, no less. Yeah, it was displaced. It was, yeah, I don't know what the difference is between displaced and dislocated. I never heard that.

I remember them saying it was displaced, so they had to have me in a whatever in hospital. I managed to get to the door. then I couldn't reach the handle. And it's that wanting to give up moment. You know, I can't be bothered. I can't do this. But I did it. You know, I got all the way from that floor to the kitchen to the garden.

And that's where it was the toughest part of my journey that I had to go over this huge fence my father had built. And my dog came, she sat next to me. And, you know, my dog, I've said it before, but she was the loudest person, the house most dogs are. They're always barking when they shouldn't be. You try and make them not bark and they bark even louder. she came and she looked at me straight in the face

and I said to her, please don't. And, you know, tears are streaming by this point. I'm trying not to make noise. I know that if everyone hears me, they'll kill me there and then. My father had always threatened to kill me and bury me under the floorboards. He'd always said that.

And I believed he would at that point especially. But she stayed quiet. And I didn't know why, you know. She looked up and she looked at me. And I remember feeling like she was there for a message to say, come on, you've got this. And it's that one person that can almost change your whole dynamic of what you think of yourself or your life even. Yeah.

And I remember touching her wet nose and I told her I loved her. She was literally my only friend. I didn't even want to leave because of her. But I couldn't take her with me. I did it. I got over the other side and I remember falling, hiding in a park opposite the house. It was a park that had bushes. I don't know how my father missed me there, but you didn't see me, thankfully.

And the next morning I got to a taxi rank. And it was early hours of the morning. And the taxi driver covered me up with a blanket. He said, where do you want to go, love? He must have been alarmed. I mean, you didn't look normal, I assume. He was very shocked. Yeah.

He would do anything for me. It was that kind of conversation we were having. He was offering to take me to the hospital, the police. I just wanted to go to see my friend because that's who I thought was going to help me. So he took you to your friend's house? He did. But it was so early in the morning that nobody was awake. you know, the world was asleep, as I call it.

Probably my favourite time of the morning, 5am, you know, everyone's quiet and you can think. But the police station was opposite the road and he carried me into the police station practically. Wow. He was such a good person that I always say that I believe in angels, that they cross our paths in the form of people when we most need them.

And he definitely was there. I remember the policeman telling him he can go. I was sort of slumped on a chair by this. I couldn't carry my own weight. I think the adrenaline had kicked in and got me to where I'd got to, but now I completely wasn't able to do it. And the police officer started to write down, a report took photos of me, which I'm still trying to track down. And then when I said the word honour killing, when he asked what happened,

he threw this file down, and he was fed up. It was almost like, oh, with it, you know. Now I know if I said murder or attempted murder, things would have been different, but you call it what it is. In my culture, it's called an honour killing. So I called it what it was. And because of that, he didn't want to know. Really? Because he just felt like, I can't do anything about those. More paperwork above his pay grade. These are the words I hear now working with the police. That's obscene, really. You would think a cop would be chomping at the bit to get into the middle of this and stop it from happening. I remember his name. His name was PCP and he looked like a character out of a cartoon, you know, like one of those cartoon characters. But regardless of what he looked

like or what his name was, he didn't help me. Unbelievable. And you ask for help and you don't get it. You don't ask again. Your confidence is broken. else's words become true, please don't help our kind of people. And I ended up in hospital for two months, which was really difficult for me. And I say two months, but you know what, Georgian, I can't remember how long I was there. It's a long time ago, so don't hold me to fact. I can't get hold of the record yet. Well, if it was the United States, you'd still be paying that bill. Then I'd have a record. Yeah, yeah, and you'd have a record. But they weren't digitalized. It was paperwork. So my son who's now a doctor said, you might not be able to get it. But I am trying,

I'll continue trying. But I was there for such a long time. I remember people coming into bed one, bed two, bed three. We were like on a ward of seven or eight beds. And I remember Johnny at the end was going to get a visit from his granddad at this time. And his granddad always bought him a pack of toffee. Or the girl, lady opposite, would get flowers from her husband every other day. And I learnt how to treat other people by watching.

I'm not going to lie. I knew that if anybody I loved went to hospital, I would be able to provide the right things for them, a magazine, bottle of lucasade, grapes. But I learnt through that because nobody was coming for me. And every time that visiting hour would come because I'd watch the clock, I knew that around the corner there was one person that was going to even say hello to me. And, you know, people have lost compassion because not one of those visitors ever turned around to me.

They said, how are you? Yeah. I looked like a young girl who'd been through a huge ordeal, but not one person had stopped to say, you know, how are you today? Not once. And that's happened more than once in my life. which is why I say to people that we need to be more loving and compassionate, give five minutes of your time. To be kind, it makes a huge difference in someone's lives.

I was released from hospital eventually. The nurses didn't care. You know, the nurses would come, the doctors would come and there was that sticky note on my file saying, attempted on a killing, they would also be a sort of thing. And surprisingly, you know, some of the nurses were from the South Asian culture like my own, but they didn't question it. Maybe they didn't want to, or they thought I deserved it. Because a lot of people from my believe I deserved what I got because I went against the grain. So she brought it upon herself, so to speak. But I left hospital and ended up in a women's refuge where there were so many women

fighting their own battles and I didn't know about alcohol abuse or drug abuse. So it was quite shocking for me, but scary to see women behaving this way. And I asked to leave and I said, can I go and live with my friends? And the lady was a warden said, here's some money we can give you, you can make way. Also, not a safeguarding thing. if you look back on it now, there was no safeguarding put in place. Yes, I'm an adult. Yes, I'm 21, 22.

But still, you know, there was no, are you going to be okay with the whole life of abuse? It maybe should have been more caretaken. They almost didn't even understand that you didn't know how to function in the world. They just kind of assumed, oh, she's ready to make a go of it, not thinking she's got the life experience of a small child in terms of freedom. I was very childhood. I still am sometimes. That's unbelievable. And wow, so how did you start to make a normal life for yourself after leaving the shelter?

Well, I went back to my friends, you know, thinking my friend will be there, expecting her to open the door. And I managed to find the place because, you know, we didn't have phones back then to navigate ourselves to places we had to use memory. And I got back to the place, Market Harbour in Leicestershire, and I knocked on the door, and her boyfriend opened. And I was a little bit, oh, God, it's him. And he said, oh, no, you know what me and her split up, but I've got two beds. rooms, you can definitely rent one from me. And I thought, well, what a kind guy saying I can rent a room. And I said, thank you. And I was very courteous and grateful. And I said my arms in a sling.

And he said, well, you can get a job when you can't owe me. So I did. I got a huge job in a local council, which I'm not sure what you call that, but it's local council, government council. I got government office. Yeah. It was a really easy job. I enjoyed it. People didn't ask me any questions and I was always fearful that my parents would find me because I knew they were looking, but it was a small white British town, so I thought they're not probably going to come here and look for me. Yeah, I just got on with life and that was how life was for me. Your parents were looking for you, what, to finish the job, essentially? Yeah, because they will look for you, whoever you are, they will find you for you, move to city to city. And a lot of our culture and

community play a big part in this. The women going shopping might see somebody who's left home and then make that call or go and visit the person. Say, well, I saw your daughter. She was in this place. If you want to find her, she's in this area. So the community play a large role in finding missing persons per se who have run away. Escape. Yeah.

Wow. It's like a snitchy, you hear about like East Germany or the Soviet Union. They have the secret police your neighbors are informed. It's like kind of like that set up. Literally, yeah. Yeah. Life was good because it was a couple of months in and I was starting to find my feet. I didn't really know my purpose in life.

When you have no belonging, you don't know where you belong. You yearn for the things you had. It's a natural thing. I was yearning for my old grey room. I wanted it back because that's all I knew. But I had no option to go back this time. I understood there was no way of going. My landlord, as he was, as then, you know, my friend said,

do you want to go to a party? I'm going to a party. It's the landlord because he'd sublet to me. He said, oh, I'm going to go to a party. Come with me. So I said to my friend, sure, what do I take? Do I need to buy a present? Do I do this?

I don't know what to do. He said, no. but I remember the flowers in the hospital I took flowers. It was a male birthday, but you didn't seem to mind that I'd brought flowers. There were a lot of partying going on there, I guess. I'd never been to one before. But my friend who I rented from was handing me Coke every two minutes. I didn't really drink Coca-Cola.

I'd never really had it because I only drank water, if that. So I said, oh, the Coke tastes a bit strange. You saw it's Pepsi. Have you drank fizzy drinks before? I said, not really. And he said, that's why. And if someone tells me something, I believe them. Sure.

Jordan says you're too close to the microphone. Oh, okay, I am too close. Jordan must know better. That was the case, and I drank three or four of these cups of Coke, and I felt very woozy. And I said, don't feel too good. He said, I'll take you back, and I don't remember anything after that. But the next morning, I'm in my bed naked, and I'm thinking what's happened.

But who might ask him? How can I question somebody? It must be something I've done. And I did kind of push it a little bit, but I got very shut down in conversations. So I left it until I realize I'm pregnant. Oh, God. I know these feelings, I know this nausea. And I say to him, I'm pregnant.

He says, I want you to abort the baby. And I thought, I don't want to go back there. I don't want to do that. Thinking it's the same clinic I have to go to. I even thought somebody might recognize me at the clinic because I was that naive. I was miles away from that place. And I said, I'm going to have this baby because suddenly something feels right for me. For whatever reason, selfishness, not wanting to be alone.

And I have the most beautiful baby girl. And I celebrate this girl. I remember having a party and making a little. little sausage rolls and doing all of the things you see on the TV because I was watching TV now because I'd never watched television before in my life, but now I'm watching television and being quite influenced by it, I have to say. And I do a little party. I invite the landlord and the landlady and I invite some of the friends of theirs. I don't really have any friends on my own, but we have this little get together and everyone looks really happy. We've got

a beautiful cake. It's not even her birthday. But I was celebrating her being alive that she had broken this circle of abuse almost. I was celebrating the daughter. in defiance. I was saying, look at me, I've got a baby girl and I'm proud. And then my father found out. Oh, no. I don't know how he found out or who saw me, because it was quite a sleepy town where I lived, but they came dressed in wigs, blonde wigs and disguised as different people. This is ridiculous. They came to the landlord who owned news agencies, a shop, a little supermarket type thing where they sell newspapers and things. And he says, here's £5,000, I'm looking for this girl. She lives near here. And they say, we don't know who she is and we don't know where she is.

We don't want the money either. And he says, well, if you find out, ring me on this number. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network, the people I know like and trust, that little circle of valuable folks that are close to me. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at six minute networking.com. I know you're probably not booking a podcast, but this course is about improving your relationship building skills.

And the course does all of that in a very down-to-earth, non-cringy way. It's not awkward. It's not cheesy. It's not about using people. It's just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer. In a few minutes a day, that's really all it takes. It's quite a light lift, and many of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course. So come on and join us.

You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six-minute networking.com. Now, back to Nina Ouk. Nobody thought it was weird. A Sikh Indian man wearing a blonde wig was asking for a little girl. It must. It sounds like that rang at least one alarm bell. It did.

Because that's so weird. Well, the landlady was really good. She didn't obviously give up where I was and she could have because $5,000. That's a lot of money. In 1993, it was still a lot of money. She didn't tell them, but she told me not to come out. So I would sit with my back to the front door, closing the letterbox and nobody could put anything through the letterbox as well. So scared.

Playing with my daughter. I'm playing with my daughter in the front room. I'm playing my daughter in my bedroom because I don't know where to take her. There's no real relationship between me and her father, but we're living cohabiting. Sure, okay. They say, you know what, move upstairs because it's a bit safer there. No one can come there unless they climb the stairs and you'll know they're coming. So I listen to them because I think they're helping me and they were to a degree,

but they wanted more rent as well. So I moved upstairs into this bigger place. It's got three bedrooms. Now my daughter's six, seven months old and she's walking around a little baby walker. And I keep going up and down the stairs to the newsagents and some company. And a guy walks in and says, oh, easy money. And I'm thinking, what's easy money? I want to know because I want to give my daughter everything.

I never had. And it turns out he's selling mobile phones. He says to me no. Almost calls me a little girl, tells me to go. And I run down to the end of the road where we have these large phone boxes like little toy of what other. The little red phone booths that everybody knows. And the doors are so heavy. I'm prising it open with my daughter's push chair. And I'm calling a number that we can get addresses from. There wasn't hardly anyone selling mobile phones at this time in 1993. And they give me the address. I write down this contract because there's no typewriters, no computers, and I send it out to him. Then there's another company I think it might be them to, send it to them to.

And within, I think, two or three days, he came back. And he knocked on the door and he said, I've got your contract. And he's laughing at me, almost. But he's all, again, if you don't ask, you don't get. And I became a very successful mobile phone distributor to the point where I didn't even need him. The people that were providers, the airtime providers came direct to me and said, we want you to have your own shop. find a place and we'll help you for the first year.

Wow. And I did, and my entrepreneurial journey just was on a different tangent. You know, I was doing so well. Maybe because I'd learned this from my father, I don't know, maybe I'd seen things, I don't know. It's in your blood. It's in my blood. And I can't deny him of that. Well, he didn't.

I wanted to give my daughter everything that I didn't have myself. My mom had taught me how not to be a mom. So I gave her that over love, you know, anything I would give to her. And then my partner's interested because I'm making a lot of money now. So he doesn't want to leave. He is not leaving. But he's doing his own thing, going out all the time, not really inclusive of me. And that's normal again. My father did that. So why would I question it? I didn't have a normal relationship with anyone up to this point. I've never dated. I don't know what dating is. And we have another little boy. We've moved into our own house. We've got a beautiful house and white picket fence. It's exactly the way I used to draw it, literally. Things are okay between us, but he's angry a lot. But I'm used to anger, remember? My mom was always angry. I don't know. I don't know. know why he's angry, but he is. And he starts to demand money. So to be in my life, I need to give him anything between £5,000, $8,000 a month. He doesn't work. He has nothing to do with the children, never turns up to a parents evening, nativity, play, sports day, he's not there.

Everyone thinks I'm a single mother. But everyone thinks the business belongs to him that we're running. Oh, I see. Because it's that thing, you know, that whole how people see him. He's driving nice cars because I'm providing. I don't even see that it's me providing. I still think it's an us thing because I don't believe in myself so much. And then I'm pregnant for the third time. And he said to me, I don't want anything to do with you after this because I don't even want children with you. You just keep having them. And I'm like, well, I'm one of three. I want to be one of three. And they've got this weird mentality thing. And I get pregnant and the pushing had started. You know, the pushing my head into the door as we're driving, the pushing me down the stairs,

they're pushing me against the kitchen door. He'd set my pillow on fire as I was pregnant. What? And yeah. While you're sleeping, I assume. While I'm sleeping. My door saw it in the bath and she's asking me questions. And I don't even know how I put the fire out.

I'm not even sure, you know, going back. I think. That would be, that's terrifying to wake up to something like that. I remember my hair being on fire. Of course. It's a real distinctive smell of flesh burning and hair burning. And going back to the bride burning thing, I've got this fear of fire. And I'm thinking he's.

going to set me on fire and I'm going to just burn like those girls did. So I'm overpleasing now. What can I do? What do you need? How can I help you? But I'm pregnant. And third pregnancy is not easy because you're tired. You're doing more than you did for the first one. You've got two other kids look after. Plus, I'm running several businesses by this point. I'm a millionaire. I'm a self-made millionaire. But I don't have the luxury of even being a millionaire because in the kitchen, we have a shelf for him and we have a shelf for me and the children. My money was controlled so that I couldn't buy the children the same food as him. And I wouldn't eat properly because it meant the children would have enough food. So I would let them eat, not myself. In the pantry, as we call it,

the understairs cupboard, there was biscuits and he would always want the Mokvite's chocolate biscuits. And sometimes my youngest son, he would go and eat them. This is going forward now. And I was scold him and say, don't do that, you'll get me in trouble. And no doubt, I used to get pulled into the kitchen and beaten because of that. It was that minor, you know, those little things. But in the third pregnancy, I'm really tired. It's quite soon after my son was born. I'm coming down the stairs and he's saying to me, I need the money, I need the money. I'm going to Italy.

He was constantly travelling and living this lavish, almost playboy lifestyle I see now. But at the time I thought he was travelling for work, looking for more ideas that never came to fruition. And he pushes me and I fall, flat on my stomach. And he leaves. My daughter was at a sleepover. And I can almost feel a foot coming. out of me. A foot?

Like a baby foot. A baby's foot. And I ring the people that we used to live with, you know, the landlady and said, I need to help. She comes and takes my son and I'm cut long story short in the hospital, giving birth to my third child. You know, the labour's like a normal labour. He's breach. So they're saying he's breached, so we need to just put a bit more caution and care. This is a baby position for people who've never heard of breach baby.

it has to do with the position of the baby in the uterus. So his feet are coming first as opposed to the head. They're monitoring the heartbeat, everything's fine. And I give birth to Tyler, his name was. And he's the most beautiful little baby. I'm holding him. And, you know, they're putting the little plastic thing on his foot as they do, you know, with the name of the baby in the time of birth.

And he stops breathing. Oh, no. And I'm lying there holding him. And I want to shake him. But you know what? You're told not shake a baby. and I can hear all the other babies in the ward crying because they've just been born. And I'm saying to him, Ty, breathe.

I'm saying to God, you've taken the wrong person. It should be me, not him. But there was that level of not wanting to accept that I'd lost my baby boy. And I kind of at that point just stopped living, stopped existing. I kind of switched off. It was dark 24-7. no light. I remember leaving the hospital feeling really empty. I remember my pillow never being dry. My arms were longing to hold to him. I had my daughter, I had my son, but I couldn't, I couldn't find

the comfort in them. I used to have large patio doors and I used to sit on the floor looking out saying at that point to God because I believed, give me back what you've taken. You know, you should have never have done this. Why did you do this? And at night, I I would hear a baby crying. I would hear the baby cry. It wasn't my other son. It wasn't my daughter. I would hear him crying.

Sorry. I didn't go to work. I didn't feed the kids, which sounds terrible. But I couldn't. I mentally had got to a point where I just wanted out of this painful life. And it was the hardest thing I've ever been through. But I did manage to persuade. my partner to give me another baby, you know, because he didn't, that time he wasn't even

sleeping with me, he was sleeping somewhere else, and he just didn't want anything to do with me. He said, I was disgusting. No man would want me that I was, you know, really ugly, and I was lucky to even have him come near me. Just classic abuser nonsense. You believe what you're told when you're in that state of mind, especially being depressed, you do. And I, um, did get pregnant, And I remember going to hospital thinking it's a girl. So I've had three boys now, two boys, sorry. It won't be a third boy. And saying to them, I want a pink room.

And I was really insisting on having a pink room. I wasn't even aware I was in labour. I went to hospital not feeling well. And they said, you're in labour. The baby's coming today. I said, it's not due for a while. They said it's coming today. It was a really pretty pink room.

And I wouldn't sit down. I wanted this baby standing. Don't ask me well. Okay. So I was really adamant about standing up, not laying down. I said, it's for your reasons. I don't want to lie down for your reasons. I want to stand up for my reason.

Gravity. It was probably the easiest birth and he was the biggest baby. And I held on to him for dear life, making sure he was still breathing and I didn't sleep all night, just watching him, just watching his every little move. And he looked just like Tyler. I have to admit, I wanted to keep the tea. So I named him something with tea.

And he kind of gave me a reason to live again, I guess. And he's my youngest. As your children got older, did they start to realize what was going on at home? Yeah, my daughter went to university. She, when you break out of a cycle, you look back and you think this isn't normal. She looked back and she could tell things weren't okay. Yeah.

So she questioned her dad and said, why did you talk to her like that? Why did you do this? And the abuse was getting so much so that he stopped us talking. He said, you can't speak to each other. I would put my phone here on a table every day and he would check through it to see if I'd had spoken to her or not. And it became a norm that we would keep our phones here. He would track my car to work.

he would have a CCTV put everywhere I went so that he could remotely access it. If I went to a supermarket, I'd show him the receipt and the timestamp, so he knew when I was there and how long I was there for. So the control became unbearable, and he knew that he was losing control because my daughter had gone to university. And my middle son, he's five years younger than my daughter, he had done his GCSEs, which I don't know what you call here, but it's like your middle school before you go to just before university. So he was studying for them and his father hit him for no reason. He came down the stairs and just punched him in the back of his head with a real third. And I stood up and said, don't do that. Why are you hitting my children? Instead of saying,

right, I'm going, I thought I'll send him away because that's the right thing to do because your reality is so distorted you can't see straight. You don't understand what's happening right in front of you because you're almost blinded by what's going on. It's almost like a cloud above you that doesn't shift and you're not doing anything to make it. If you're not stepping away, you're standing in that cloud deliberately. But I just didn't see it

and I regret not seeing it. So I sent him to boarding school, but that meant that's a lot of money I've got to pay in a British boarding school. And I thought, you know what it's really good? He carries on playing his soccer, which he was playing at high level. It's really good.

I'll send the youngest one too. He'll go next year or the year after, but I just need to save up. It meant I had to work harder. So I'm opening up a new business, which was my solution to everything. Oh, John, you're a new mind. that, I'll go open a new business and I'll create the money for it. My youngest son became

ill because suddenly his buffer had gone. That person he ran to every time I was being dragged into the kitchen and being beaten, he disappeared. It was just the two of us left and there was a lot of noise, physical and mental, you know, mental noise for two people and it became unbearable for him. So stress has to go somewhere and if it stays in your body, it makes you sick. It made him sick, he ended up with an autoimmune disease. Again, there was this thing, don't talk about anything out of the house. If you do, you know, I'll find out and I'll kill you, I'll do this. You can't leave, I will kill you. You can't make it on your own. So we were drowning, literally, both of us. And I was in the hospital. He had a very big operation. It was a very touching go

situation. And I asked him to come, his father. I said, please come because he's got this. He'd planned a trip to China during all of this. Your son's ill in hospital. You're not going to go anywhere. you're going to be there 24-7. He wasn't. He didn't come once to visit him. My daughter turned up from university and said, I'm here for you. And it was reassuring because I didn't know what was going to happen on the other side of him going through those doors. When he had his operation, I don't know if he was going to come back or not. And, you know, anybody with a sick child, my heart goes out to them too because it's a horrible place to be.

But we did come back home eventually after feeling like we'd been in hospital forever. And I was working from hospital. I was taking calls while staying with him. I would not move. You know, I slept there. I didn't go anywhere. The day we got back, it was a couple of days later. My daughter gets a picture message on her phone saying, I'm sorry from her father. And every time I had seen my daughter, she'd said it feels like this is a goodbye because I feel like you'll kill you and I'll never see you again. Oh my gosh. So for her, she was in constant anxiety. And she had just

got into this new degree she wanted to do. She's a biomedical scientist. She wanted to study dentistry. They turned her down over and over and over again. She finally gets into King's College. which is the best university for dentistry. And this happens. You know, she gets this picture message, so it knocked her for six. What's the picture message? The picture message, yeah. Sorry, it's myself asleep on a sofa.

I didn't sleep because of the setting on pillow. I had insomnia, but also her father, my partner, would lock our doors at 11 o'clock at night and reopen them at 6. It was like a control thing. Yeah, like a prison warden. I didn't sleep ever. I was really bad at sleeping. I'd go for days without sleeping.

But my son's picture that she'd received was him slumped on a table in a really awkward way. And she just knew her heart, that instinct was telling her something's wrong. This shouldn't be this way. So she panicked and she didn't know what to do to the point where she called me. And people say, why didn't she call the police? But when you're in a panic, you do what comes first. She called me and I didn't answer. She called and called and called until I did answer.

But when I did, my throat was really dry. and I said, let me just get some water and I've got the phone in one hand. I've gone to turn the tap on. I turned to look this way and on the stove he's turned all the taps on on the stove. So this gas completely, so the house is full of gas. And people say, well, you can't die of that,

but you can die of carbon. Of course you can. If I'd woke up later on and switched the light on, the house would have exploded. It was literally an accident waiting to happen, which led us to being removed because of the situation. So we were removed in 2015, both my youngest son and myself, because of domestic violence. So the state intervened in this?

He told the school, my son. Oh, good for him. Yeah, he is a lot of courage it takes for you to ask for help. Yeah. Especially being a man. It was hard for me to ask for help. I never asked. He did it for me.

But we were placed in a very disgusting safe home, as they call it, where we stepped in the door. The carpet squelched because it was full of urine. Ooh. And the wall was full of human feces. And it was inhabitable, really. Yeah. But because I was a millionaire on paper, it led us to only be allowed to stay there for a certain time.

And that led to homelessness seven years ago. Wow. Wow. Okay. So you didn't have access to the money, but they said, oh, you have means you can, you'll be fine.

We're just going to shove you off the door. Because money's often in bricks and mortar. Money's often in machinery. Money's often in assets, you know, business assets. So did I have accessible money? No. They told me when I left not to take a thing.

It's that whole panic. thing. You know, you've got 20 minutes to leave, what do you take? If I take you into a supermarket, I say, Georgian, you've got five minutes to grab what you can. For the first three minutes, you're going to panic, I think, what I'll take. Yeah, I'm getting a cart full of potatoes. Yeah. You don't know what to take. So we took literally the coat on my back, which is, again, prominent for me because it provided a shelter a month. So you leave. Does he try to follow you? Because abusers often don't let things go. Yeah, I mean, he's still looking for me. Really?

Mother and father found that I had left and they still decided they would look for me as well because now I was out there again. They won't find you here in Canada where we're recording this. That's an awful feeling. That's a really terrible feeling. Well, I spent a lot of my time looking over my shoulder, walking on

eggshells, but now I don't. I found this new freedom, I call it. Yeah. And it's on the other side of love and I encourage others that when you become less fearful, when you look on the other side of fear, you'll find this immense amount of love and freedom that comes with that. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and

considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors. All the deals and discount codes and ways to support this show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And if you can't remember the name of the sponsor, you're wondering if we have a certain sponsor, you go ahead and email me, Jordan atjurbaner.com. I am more than happy to surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Nina Woolke. What about contact with your family? Have they ever, has your brother ever maybe called you and said,

hey, we were pretty terrible to you or hey, where are you or how are you or anything like that? I mean, during my relationship with my ex-partner, my brother did find me after 15 years. I was with my partner for 23 years. So after 15 years, he found me to apologize because he'd been caught by the police attacking his girlfriend at the time with a hammer. Okay. And the police in the United Kingdom have come up with this new thing that if you go through a series of meetings and counselling sessions, you don't have to have charges pressed against you. I see.

You can correct yourself and, you know, do some community service or something. So he had to come and find me because he told them quite openly what you've done, which, you know, is giving evidence in a way. Right. But they got me to sign a paper, which I did, not really wanting to, but I felt pressure to. He said, do you forgive me? I said, I do forgive you, I'll never forget. I didn't want anything to do with him, really, but I tried for a few months with my children,

but I realized in those 15 years how different I had become, how I was no longer so in that South Asian mentality. I didn't do things like them. I felt like an outsider, which I knew I was, but for the right reasons, you know, I had more compassion, more love. They were very angry at their children or very dismissive. My brother, coincidentally, not long after, had an arranged marriage that he chose.

He chose the bride, He had a girl and he didn't celebrate the girl. And that was kind of like the breaking point where I thought, well, he's just come out of hospital. Angry, just stormed off. And I didn't have too much interaction, but I had enough to know what was going on. I thought, I don't want this. I don't want my children subjected to this either. And what is family?

You know, I was pining for this family. I was feeling I don't belong, but I belong to me. Yeah. You know, home isn't there. Home is where you make it. And I had a realization that I didn't need them anymore. That's quite horrible. I feel almost compelled to say, I would imagine.

imagine most Indians, most Sikh people are not like this. Well, a lot of people say, well, you know what, I get a lot of comments on, I've done over 100 podcasts and interviews. This is probably going to be my last. If I do another one, it will be. Oh, that's nice to hear, I think, or is it bad because we're number 100 and you're sick of it? No, no, you're... It's the last straw, Jordan.

No, no. It's just, I go back and forth in my life. So I go back to that six-year-old. I go back to that 14-year-old girl that was raped. I go back to the 21-year-old that barely is gay death. Be pleasant. And it's like taking bits of myself and leaving them there. And at 50 I became whole.

I found who I was. I had this almost awakening of who I really was and what life meant. So if I keep going back and forth, which I've been doing for over nearly a year and a half now, I leave fragments of myself and I want to be that whole person so I can be better for my future and the people that I'm helping. So I'm in a great place. So people that are listening to this mustn't think I'm really sad or depressed because I'm not, finding myself has been the best thing. But I tell my story and I describe it's cutting myself

open so that other people can heal because people do come forward. It's crazy to me that this is happening, not just in rural India where I'm sure it still happens. It does happen, but Canada, the UK, the United States. If it's happening in the UK in the 80s and 90s, it's for sure happening in the United States. Yeah, as I was saying earlier, I've had 15,000 messages more or less, if not more. And a lot of them are from people from my colleagues. of ages between 10 and 1718, and they are young girls who are describing my life, my old life. So I know there's other Nina's out there. I know there are millions of Neas that are living that life that I escaped. So I don't really want to not do things about it. I feel it's a calling.

It's my purpose to do something about it. So it's still happening, but it's hidden. You know, the messages may not be as clear as they were for me. Sexual abuse is very common. It's normally an uncle or someone in the family and it happens but no one talks about it because it's such a stigma and we're taught so much so by our culture that we shouldn't speak out in the communities that there's a shame factor sure which fully enables the abuse telling everyone the shame isn't on you it's on the person that's done this their hands are dirty not yours speak out in your truth there is a sense of healing and speaking out you know i tell people this as well that it's hard it's really difficult revisiting those places but when you do you learn to let go you learn to

allow that time to pass and to become present where you are now. It's very brave of you. I mean, I always go back and forth with these types of interviews where I'm, because I know I'm asking you to relive the most horrific moments of your life in, like, ideally 90 minutes, right? Can we cram in the worst, you know, thing? And it's difficult to ask somebody to do that. It's very brave of you to do that.

I don't blame you for not wanting to do it a hundred more times. Yeah, mentally it takes a toll. And every time I say I'm not going to do it, hundreds of more women all come in and men as well. It's not just women. You know, people resonate with someone else's pain, and pain, in whichever form it comes in. So I want everyone to know that they're not alone because I felt alone very much in my life.

You can be a mother, you can be a daughter, you can be your girlfriend or a wife. But when you're on your own, if you don't know who you are, that's a real sense of being alone. I found me three years ago, I'm 53. I found myself at 50. And I really love who I am. And I loved all the bits that nobody else did. I love the fact that I had to go through this journey because, you know, I found me,

because with my clients, I teach them that it's okay having a goal and celebrating that goal, but it's the journey that makes you, if you learn to celebrate the goods and the bads on your journey, then life is really beautiful. What about your extended family? Do they all kind of just like, we don't talk with them or something weird's going on there, or were they, it just seems bizarre that everyone's sort of in on this. It's like a weird conspiracy. I've had a lot of threats from family members still.

Don't speak at why you doing this, what difference is going to make now. your poor father. I haven't mentioned something that's really important, which is in 2015, I had the police contact me and say to me they needed a character reference with my father. I wasn't really in the right frame of mind. Hey, I was homeless, right? I couldn't think straight. I had my son's hand in mind and I had nothing else to say that I had in my life, really. Character reference. So I found it difficult to even converse with the police, but the character reference was for a charge that was made against my father because he'd abducted my sister. And I said, don't have a sister. They said you have a six-year-old half-sister. Your father, sorry, your father

took your half-sister. He took her to India and she's missing. I couldn't get it. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't absorb it. But when I got to a point where I found me, I revisited that horrible place and horrible thing because we bury things because we can't deal with it. And I realized that I have a half-sister called Julia. I've not long found that out. Her name. She's half Polish. My father had had an affair and he hid this affair and he hid the fact he had a daughter, a whole daughter and a whole person he's hiding. So to hide her from the community and being found out, he abducted that he took her without the mother's knowledge and he sold her to human traffickers in India. Oh my God. Where they harvest organs. And when I had

the acknowledgement this has happened and I actually understood. I realised I couldn't stay quiet and that's when I decided to speak out. I felt guilty. I don't feel guilty now, but I did. I felt guilty because I hadn't held him accountable. You know, for him, he was above the law. He was getting away with things. I didn't press charges. But I understood it as well. I wasn't able to at that point. But now being this person that says she's found herself who's escaped the control of another person who's now free, what could I do with my time? How could I make it matter? In her honour, what could I do?

Wow. So I started speaking out. I work with other non-profits. There's one in Switzerland in Geneva called Youth Underground. She taught me a lot. You know, Rasha giving her a shout to actually deserves it. She does a lot of work with the youth, teaching them about grooming. She's coming to America soon as well, working here.

And she taught me a lot of things. I work with another non-profit. I can't say where they are because they're more underground. but they actually rescue children and I begged them to help me. They told me she'd been left somewhere where they harvest organs. That's awful.

Maybe because of the interest from the police, they won't do that to her. They'll keep her as a servant and sell her to the Middle East where the Middle East thing comes into play as well because they have a lot of housemaids and servants. But the point is she's still missing. He went to prison for four years.

She's still missing. Sorry, your father went to prison for four years? He went to prison for four years. He went to prison for four years. Thank goodness. But because of cultural influences, because of the honor in which he took her, because of the sake of honor and attempted honor killing, it was reduced. So he was out of prison and he's living his life. But she's nowhere to be seen.

This is really horrifying. How many honor killings are happening in the UK? Do we have stats on this? I mean, of course, I'm imagining it's like 90% unreported. I'm not a statistical person. I know you have heard your podcasts. I know you're facts and figures, but I'm not a fact. But I'm definitely a figure of influence when it comes to honour-based killing.

So I've lived it. I have the lived experiences. I have the pain. I have the scars. You know, I have the tears. I was not reported. None of my abuse was reported in life. And so many people go under the radar because we're too scared.

So many people are taken out of the country and killed. But yeah, there's, I think, 12 girls every month get killed is the statistical. But that's nothing. I know that's nothing. I know it's not true. I've stood next to a girl whose sister was killed in Parliament, in the police area. We've stood together and spoken because her sister had gone to the police station and said they're going to kill me and the police have gone, yeah, okay. And the video footage is now they're on a documentary that people can see. But the point is she was ignored. So now I sit on two boards at Scotland Yard, advisory boards. I'm in the home office. I work with the forced marriage unit. I'm on their board. But there's no point being on these boards and doing nothing. So I'm that voice that actually speaks up. I'm not a yes person. I'm not a destructive or deliberately.

You don't want to cause a problem. But I want the truth. I want them to do something. And I believe that if all of us stand up, we can create a little bit of change. I'm determined to create some change and ripples of change that maybe the future generations will benefit. But the key are men.

The key is you. A man bringing forward compassion to give almost that standing that this is how a father should be, how a brother should be. You know, that's the key. So I'm working really hard to create awareness. And, you know, by going around talking the way I've been doing in the US on child marriages, I spoke in Dallas about that, there's a huge problem with child marriages in America. It's so horrible states. Crazy to hear that. But it's true. And, you know, having had the experiences I've had, I know that I'm not doing this now just for my sister. I'm doing it for all of those girls,

but also the boys that have had no one, those people that feel alone, they're the ones I'm doing it for, the ones that felt they had nobody there for them. Nina, thank you so much. Endhonorckillings.org. We'll link it in the show notes. This is really incredible. It's just an unbelievable story, amazing story, I should say, and shocking story. And it's very, again, very brave of you to tell it, to speak out, to help others.

I just think it's really something we all need to know about. This is happening right under our noses, which I think is the most disgusting part of the whole thing, is it's way more common than we think, and it's happening right here, whether we know it or not. I mean, I'd like to say before we go is what people can do. People always say,

well, what can I do? I can't do anything. I don't want them to listen to this and just feel bad for me or bad for my story or bad for the girls. I want them to honor what I've been through. I want them to honor me by asking a question to anyone that they come across,

that they feel something's not right. Listen to your intuition and do something, say something. You know, ask the question, even if it's, are you okay? if you see a domestic violence altercation happening on, I don't know, a train or a shopping centre, destroy that situation by asking a simple question. When I say destroy, you can completely shut that down by saying, have you got the time interrupting them, or say, do you know which bus goes to,

or do you know which train I need to catch, or you guys want to know where this addresses? It completely destroys that situation. It stops the argument completely. But just by following your intuition, if you know somebody's in the house next to you that doesn't come out, the daughters are treated badly, you can hear the screaming, make a discrete call. You don't have to be in the face of this person. You can make a discreet call and be anonymous and just say, you know what? I'm suspicious that the children are not being treated well because too many of us turn a blind eye and that's why this continues. I think also, this was mentioned elsewhere, possibly by you, if you're being taken somewhere against your will or you know someone where that's happening, your advice was to stick metal objects in places.

If you know that you're going to be sent to India the way I was, I wish somebody had told me this. It would have maybe helped me in that time if I was being forced. But play something metallic into your underwear or your pockets that your parents don't know about. It'll set off the radar and then you can ask for help. You must ask for help. It's so hard. But the people that are working in these places know these things happen. I'm trying to get into train them myself.

Yeah. But, you know, ask for help and it will stop you being killed. You deserve to live. They deserve it. They deserve it. You are good enough. Nina, thank you so much. Thank you, Jordan.

You're about to hear a preview of one of my favorite stories on the Jordan Harbinger show with Megan Phelps Roper. She used to belong to one of the most hateful religious cults in America, the Westboro Baptist Church. She was born into the church and later escaped. To hear her tell the story firsthand is really incredible. I started protesting when I was five years old, but even at that first picket, there was a sign that said, gays are worthy of death. So God Hates Vags is what Westboro's message that we became known for. We were the good guys, and everyone outside the church was,

Evil and going to hell, and we had the only message that would bring the world any hope. We had to go and warn people. These terrible things are happening, and if you want this pain to stop, then you have to change, because God isn't going to change. After the September 11 attacks, we had the sign that said, thank God for September 11. What were we thinking? This massive crowd comes down. We were at this corner of this intersection of these three streets. By the time they actually reached us, we're just enraged.

There was no space between us and them. It got really dicey. One of my cousins gave his signs to somebody else and started standing on top of a trash can, pretending like he wasn't with us. They were, again, incredibly intense because obviously the circumstances are so sobering. It brings me incredible sadness to think about now. I can't do this forever. My family, they would refuse to have any contact with me at all once I left.

somebody that we had confided in, sent a letter to my parents and told them that we were planning to leave. And then that email came in and we left. For more with Megan, including the details of her harrowing experience, check out episode 302 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. I'm never sure how to wrap up these kinds of really just intense conversations. I think all of us are going to be thinking about this one for quite some time. Her nonprofit and honor killings.org will be linked in the show notes. Honor is spelled the British way with a you after that last oh.

All things, Nina, will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com or just as the AI chat bot on the website. Transcripts are in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also, our newsletter. Every week, the team and I dig into an older episode of the show, we dissect the lessons from it. So if you are a fan of the show, and I hope you are, and you want a recap of important highlight and takeaways, so you just want to know what to listen to next. The newsletter is a great place to do just that.

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The greatest compliment you can give us is really to share the show with those you care about. And if you know somebody who would be interested in this type of conversation, I realize it's a heavy one. But I find for some people these land quite right. And I would love it if you would share this one with him. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused

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