The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1059: Putting Predator on Blast for His Abusive Past | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: October 4, 2024

Your childhood abuser runs a daycare. Can you get justice for his past misdeeds while preventing him access to future victims? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: You discovered that a man who sexually abused you as a child is now running a childcare program in another state. With this alarming information, how can you protect potential victims and seek justice after so many years? [Thanks — once again — to attorney Corbin Payne for helping us answer this one!] Your girlfriend recently moved for a demanding new job, drastically reducing your communication. As she asserts her individuality, you're struggling with insecurity and distance. Is there a path forward that honors both her independence and your need for intimacy? After a traumatic brain injury, you've overcome many obstacles but still struggle with a limited "social battery" as a business owner. How do you balance your professional obligations with your need for reduced social interaction? As a hard-working cook taking on extra responsibilities, you're torn between giving your all and potentially being taken advantage of. How will you decide whether to continue going above and beyond or set firmer boundaries? Recommendation of the Week: Venus Fly Trap You spent years in a relationship with a narcissist who isolated you from loved ones and subjected you to verbal and physical abuse. What gave you the strength to finally leave, and how did your life change afterward? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1059 If you love listening to this show as much as we love making...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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The Advice Zar, even with that forehead scar. Gabriel Mizrahi. Gabe, it looks like you're, you're healing up nicely from that fight you got in with a, was it a towel rack? Yeah, and I won, just for the record. I'm all right. I look like Harry Potter, but I'm all right. Yeah, you do look like Harry Potter.

You keep putting that scar cream on every night during your Patrick Bateman skin care routine. Get that cheloid down. Oh, trust me. I have gone full American. and psycho with the skincare routine. I'm like, Mederma three times a day, some other cream I can't remember the name of right now, vitamin E oil.

I'm like, it's a whole thing. Yeah, I can't have my radio co-host who nobody can actually see looking like a villain on a central casting. I actually said that to the doctor who did my stitches because I was kind of sizing her up while she was putting in the, what do you call it, the anesthetic? And I was like, listen, can you do these stitches really neatly, like really tightly because I need this scar to heal well? I'm a forehead model.

That's what she said. She was like, what are you in? And I'm like, no, I'm, you know, I'm behind the camera. I host a podcast. I could almost hear her roll her eyes behind the curtain. It was so funny. Like, oh, you have a podcast. Well, in that case, let me get our best.

Let me call the top specialist for this so that your career is not affected. Let me add 12 more stitches for you, honey. Yeah, no, she didn't care. I mean, we do record our interviews sometimes. So not totally unreasonable for you to avoid a keyloid's car. You could just wear a K-bonito hat. I might have to start wearing a lot of head gear. Yeah, L.A., though, not the kind of.

a place where you can afford to be any less attractive, no matter where you fall on the scale. Yeah, not if I want to show my face in Air One again. Yeah, exactly. That's going to be embarrassing. Can't roll in there with that thing, all shiny. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from former jihadis, astronauts, Fortune 500 CEOs, neuroscientists, and war correspondence.

This week we had my friend Nina Auk. That's how you pronounce it. Trust me. I checked with her. Unending forced marriage and honor killings. Really crazy harrowing story. And we had a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on the placebo and nocebo effects. Really interesting.

You've heard of nocebo, right, Gabe? It's like the opposite of placebo. So that's when you take a pill? When you don't take a pill? Actually, I don't know if I know what I mean that I started talking about. talking about it. I was like, nope, don't know what this is. Like, I give you a sugar pill and suddenly you're like, my headache went away, right? Right.

And nocebo is the opposite essentially where I, like, I give you a sugar pill and I tell you it does something bad. And suddenly you're like, oh, yeah, my knees are hurting. God. It's the opposite. Interesting. Yeah. It's quite fascinating how powerful these two effects really are and that they stack with regular drugs and how they should be used medically, right? Because we should be using this effect in combination with actual medicine so that we don't have to like put people on fenty in order to get them to stop feeling pain. Anyway, on Fridays we share stories. We take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites and tease Gabe being a total stitches diva. Before we dive in,

I wanted to share a story with you that's near and dear to my heart. When I was a freshman in high school, I separated my shoulder playing football. It was kind of gnarly. My friend, he didn't stop at the whistle, whatever. He ended up yanking at my shoulder because I did an arm tackle, something you're also not supposed to do. Always a bad idea. Anyway, the coach, he just didn't didn't care at all. And he didn't go with me to the hospital and he didn't call nothing. I didn't hear anything until the following week when we had practice and I went back in a sling and he was like, oh yeah, uh, how's your arm? And I told him, hey, look, I'm done with football. I only came in to turn in all my crap. And I was so mad I went to the head coach of the varsity team who's

essentially that guy's boss and the head of the whole football program. And I told him what happened. I told him why I'm quitting football, not just because of the entry, but because the coaches just did not care. I mean, they didn't even want to call the ambulance or check on me. And one of the guys was like, Jordan's like, arm is doing something weird and is like in a weird position that's not natural. And he kicked the coach to get him to pay attention. He literally yelled and kicked him. He's like, you need to pay attention. It was like an emergency. 20-20 hindsight, I probably should have sued him personally, but whatever. Anyway, they didn't care about our well-being at all. This wasn't the first instance of these guys just being total assholes with disregard for the kids entirely. That's not the

point for me to vent about this injury. But instead of getting defensive, which I thought the head coach would do, I walked in there, like, being like, hey, by the way, he completely agreed with me. He put his arm around me and was like, let's go for a walk. So we walk around the school, and he's like, you know, you're quitting football. I totally get it. I'm not happy with these coaches. Like, I didn't know you were injured.

I'm so sorry. Like, if there's anything I can do, I'm definitely going to talk to these guys about this. It's unacceptable. What are you trying to do for the future? You know, what were your goals for football? And I was like, well, I wanted to be on the football team and get my varsity letter because I want to apply to college and I'm not really playing any other sports. And he's like, why don't you just work for the football team?

and he's like, we really need video, I need miscellaneous organizational stuff, and he's like, I need someone so bad for this, why don't you just work with me? And he set me up on a computer like that day. He also paid me hourly. And in addition, he gave me a varsity high school football letter my freshman year, which is unheard of, right?

Usually for athletics, you get it, but not for being a gover for the team, but whatever. So I put that on my college application that I was a varsity football player my freshman year. He bought me shoes, a jacket, paid for football camp, got me lessons on how to use. a video camera in the mid-90s. Let me leave school early so I could work on various projects

while giving me credit for a class called football techniques, which is hilarious that he taught. And he's like, you just don't show up. Just go do other stuff. And I'll just give you credit for this class. And I'm sure that some of this stuff, someone's going to go like, he paid you, but you got a varsity letter. He let you go instead of taking the class and give you a grade. I'm sure that's outside the rules, but he didn't really care, not only because it benefited him, but because it was the right thing to do at the time. And since then, that coach had to leave the football team because he became the athletic director. I think there was a conflict of interest or something. I think now he's like the assistant principal, the principal, the school,

or some other sort of administrator. His name is Doug Frazier. I will never forget that guy, an amazing guy, really stand-up guy. He had a lot of people, I remember who thought he did things the wrong way. He had people who didn't like him. He had a ton of other people who thought he was the best thing since sliced bread, sort of a polarizing character. I, of course, saw everything from the inside. I can see both perspectives because he was a rule breaker, and he didn't like to be held back by stupid policies that got in the way of things that he wanted done. But I will never really forget how somebody stood up for me, did the right thing when other coaches who were supposed to have my best interest at heart couldn't even make a phone call to see if my life altering injury was okay

the day after it happened. I think I might have mentioned this on the show before, but a long time ago, of course, way later, when we were in college, I went back and I visited some of my high school buddies and we were hanging around. We ordered pizza. And one of the people that delivered the pizza was the coach of the freshman football team, the one who didn't care enough to call me. Oh, wow. He was delivering pizza. And in that moment, I remember the guys were kind of laughing.

They're like, dude, was that coach block? What a tor. Oh, my God. And I felt kind of petty and bad, but I also felt kind of vindicated. And I also had this weird moment of understanding about how this man's choices in life, which were all just garbage, probably.

I'd stop taking it so personally, right? This guy had made enough bad choices in life, this divorced guy, that led to him delivering pizza at age, you know, whatever, 40-something to a bunch of high school kids. And he went from like this guy who I wanted his approval who didn't care about me to like this pathetic figure instead of a malignant one. I think that whole experience grew me up a little bit somehow. Wow. It was one of the first moments that made me go, okay, this is how you treat people, this is how you take care of them, this is how you invest in them. And that literally determines

your trajectory in life. So true. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What a reverse. What a moment. Yeah. That really captures a lot, doesn't it? The sort of double whammy was, of course, seeing Coach Block delivering the pizza and just being like, oh, yeah, okay. This is not like some guy who was so awesome at life, he didn't care. This is like this pathetic guy who's living for a freshman high school football team between

Little Caesar's deliveries, and it's like sad, pathetic. And so I shouldn't be mad at him. I should literally pity this man. And it changes, of course, the way that you start to feel about their actions, right? So fascinating. fascinating. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've always known that my husband, Dave, had been sexually abused as a child. When Dave was seven, his parents went through a bitter divorce, and he chose to distance himself

from his father, aligning closely with his mother. During this vulnerable time, a family friend in his 20s or 30s stepped in, becoming a father figure to him. This man would take him to his water polo and baseball practices and spent a lot of time with him. When Dave was around 12, this man began to take advantage of him. Oh, that's awful. This harmful relationship continued until Dave was about 18 when he finally found the strength to tell this person to stay out of his life. That was the end of their so-called relationship, but the emotional impact has lingered for the last 40 years. I can imagine. Good for him. I'm so happy he did that, but yeah, I'm sure this has left quite a mark. There's no getting around it. I've never pressured him to talk about these experiences unless he felt comfortable

and he's rarely spoken about them. The only people he's really opened up to are me and his ex-wife. We've both been supportive, and while he's done some therapy, it hasn't been very in-depth or ongoing. Despite everything, Dave has grown into a stable, loving husband, father, and caretaker, and a truly wonderful person. Recently, Dave has been bringing up these experiences more often, trying to process the emotions that have resurfaced.

I've been by a side, always supportive, and ready to listen. One of the first things he wondered is whether there could be any legal repercussions against this man, even though these events occurred 35 years ago. He contacted the police department in the county where it all happened, and they informed him that he would need to come in and file a report. Now he's grappling with whether pursuing legal action is worth the emotional toll, and if it's even possible after so much time has passed, he's afraid of being let down again, but he's also filled with unresolved anger towards this man.

A few days ago, Dave decided to search for this guy online, and what he found was deeply disturbing. During the period when Dave was suffering, there was an active investigation involving this man and other young people in a major national youth organization. He was a very decorated leader and had been abusing many other young men. The investigation didn't lead to any charges and the only consequence was that he was barred from being associated

with certain organizations ever again. Dave is horrified that while he was enduring so much pain, this guy denied everything to the authorities and actually had letters written on his behalf about what a stand-up citizen he was. I've always resisted the urge to dig deeper into this man's history out of respect for Dave's privacy. But with his permission, I did some research, and we've discovered that this man currently owns a child care program several states away. What?

The thought that he could still be a danger to others is incredibly alarming. Gabe, how do we have pedophiles that run rampant in youth organizations? There's enough smoke where people that are, think there might be fire, and then they get investigated and banned from the organization, and then they go and open up a daycare. How is this possible? Seriously. I don't know the answer to that. I have to think it has something to do with the cracks in the system slash the fact that he was not formally charged. Clearly, but are you kidding me? This stuff happens. I know. It's horrifying. So the letter goes on. We're now struggling with how to proceed. We worry that he has likely harmed

many more people over the past 50 years and is currently in a position where he has access to more potential victims. We want to notify the authorities and protect anyone who might currently be in danger, but we're unsure how to go about this. How would you advise us to move forward in this situation?

Signed, not opposed, to expose this creep and the woes he imposed, even if our windows closed because, you know, there might be others undisclosed. Wow, you even threw filler words in your sign-off today. You went the extra mile. That's like when you have to make the word count on an essay in middle school stuff in all these extra big words.

Long letter today. Well, I did throw in 13 extra filler words to make it sound more natural. You know, whatever makes the meat or work, I'm a bit of a poet myself, Jordan. Gosh, yeah. That sign off was longer than the letters this guy received in support of him being a stand-up citizen. That's horrible. That's saying something.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is quite a story. First of all, what your husband went through obviously incredibly heartbreaking. I'm deeply sorry this guy abused him as a child. That stuff is unspeakably sad. The fact that Dave turned out to be such a stable and loving husband, father, human being,

it's really remarkable, especially given that he hasn't talked much about his experience. Totally. He sounds like a really special guy. My heart goes out to him. Second, what you have learned about Dave's abuser since then, this is, you cannot overstay. It's very alarming.

So alarming. Very alarming. Deeply disturbing. I understand while you feel the need to do something. I don't think you could sit back and just let this go. Of course, we wanted to talk to an expert here, so we reached out to defense attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne. And the first thing Corbyn said was he appreciated how traumatizing this was for Dave,

but he was glad to hear that he's willing to step up to the plate for potential future victims. You know what, I got to hand it to it. That's gutsy. A lot of people just want to bury this stuff in the past, but now it's like maybe that lets this continue. So props. Now, about Dave's abused 35, 40 years ago, Corbin said he's not entirely sure what he can do about that.

that, Dave might be able to file a report, get an investigation going, but Corbyn said he'd be surprised if a statute of limitations didn't hinder the police's ability to take action. My understanding is that there's no federal statute of limitations for sexual abuse, but most states do have one, although some states have no statute of limitations or they have what are called window laws that allow victims to file claims after a certain amount of time. So this really does depend on where y'all live, and I would do some homework on that or talk to an attorney. Now, I know it must be hard for your husband to decide whether to report and go through all the emotional turmoil that that would entail. If he wanted to file a report, whether it moves forward or not, I'd applaud him.

If he found it too painful and wanted to move on after all this time, I would understand that too. What I can tell you is that the story we hear from so many victims of abuse is that reporting is almost always empowering. It's almost always something they are glad that they did. Painful, yes, uncomfortable, sure, but oftentimes very empowering at the end of the day. It's one big way to take some power back and try to hold an abuser account. The other way to hold this guy accountable, though, is to report him to another agency. The fact that this guy is running a, and I'm just angry even saying this sentence, the fact that this guy is running a daycare or a kindergarten or whatever, given the facts, is deeply disturbing

to say the least. That is not a coincidence, okay? There's a reason this guy is not running a dry cleaner. He wants easy access to victims. It's so disgusting. And I think you guys have a responsibility to notify somebody because, my God, he's got access to tons of kids. He could be doing the exact same thing to them right now.

in fact, that's probably the plan. And that investigation into this guy with the whole youth organization thing, which is so sad, that could actually be very useful. Corbin pointed out that if he runs a child care center, he's probably licensed by a state licensing board. In California, it falls under the Department of Social Services.

In other states, it's called the Division of Welfare and Supportive Services or something similar. In some states, the licensing program falls under the Department of Children and Families. Corbin said that the fact that an investigation took place, that could well be enough for the state licensing board to take a hard look at this guy, and either start an investigation of its own or just straight up deny him licensure for his child care business. In fact, Corbin said that if he entered into some

sort of agreement to avoid certain organizations in exchange for not getting prosecuted, that could also cause the licensing agency to reconsider his license. I also wonder if you could notify DCF or the equivalent in your state about the fact that a person with a child sexual abuse investigation in his past is now around so many children. It might not be under their control if it's not about a family. But if it, look, it involves children, and maybe they can also refer this to the right agency. You know, you're going to reach somebody there who probably cares enough to tell you who to call next. And if you try that, and it doesn't go anywhere, Corbyn said that the existence of such an agreement, you could possibly report that to the media or you could disclose it publicly,

you know, maybe on Facebook or, I don't know, child care or websites or something to discourage parents from leaving their children with this guy. And Corbyn used the word possibly because there are a couple of things to keep in mind here. First of all, apparently, sometimes there are privacy laws around the disclosure of such an agreement where a child victims are concerned, and that might prevent Dave from being able to access a copy of this agreement or to get confirmation of its existence. And second, in Corbyn's opinion, Dave will need to be very careful about what he discloses, how he discloses it. For example, an agreement like the one you described is probably not an admission of guilt or wrongdoing by this guy. So Dave probably should not stand up and say,

this guy admitted to the abuse or whatever. Right. Because that doesn't quite seem to be the case. And the reason Corbyn is being so lawyerly here is that he doesn't want Dave to overstate what he can prove because, of course, that could lead to a lawsuit. And a lawsuit, unfortunately, is a risk in this situation. According to Corbyn, if Dave ever went public with his story, there is a chance that his abuser could sue him.

He could argue that the abuse never happened, that Dave is libeling and or slandering him. Now, Corbin did say that this guy would be wise to a little. avoid such a lawsuit because it would allow Dave to defend himself by telling his story in court, and this guy will not be able to put that genie back in the bottle very easily. Yeah, that's a good point. That's why you all have heard me say on the show, like when I cover cults and stuff, and people go, aren't you worried about Scientology suing you? Yeah, that wouldn't be fun, but I'm also kind of like, or would it be fun? Because now, yeah, let's go to discovery. I'm going to subpoena a bunch of documents. I'm going to find a bunch of anti-Scientology expert

witnesses, this could actually be quite fun. We can air out a lot of dirty laundry. And, you know, that's exactly what they don't want. What they want is for me to go, oh my God, please don't sue me. That's going to be expensive and ruin my life. Go away. I'm sorry. No, I want to air it all out. Let's let the sun shine on that ass. That's what these people do not want. So this guy, of course, does not want these allegations to come out in court. That alone might be enough of a deterrent. There's a bright spot in all this, though, to quote Corbyn here. Ten years ago, I would have told you that Dave could be looking at an uphill battle to win such a case. Post me too, I'm far less concerned about that. Again, Corbyn's words here. So if it ever came to a lawsuit, which just to be

clear, we're not saying it would, it's just a possibility that we really should have to warn you about here. I think Dave might be in a pretty strong position. So that's the legal side of things. As for Dave and how he is working through all of this, I am really encouraged by the fact that he's opening up to you more these days. He probably has a lot to unburden himself of, a lot to process, obviously. Filing a police report, notifying the state, maybe warning other people about this guy, those all might be part of his healing. But I also do hope that Dave is finding the support that he needs personally. Like Jordan said, he sounds like a remarkable person who has really flowered and built this beautiful life despite what happened to him. I'm guessing that your husband

has a lot of resilience, a very big heart. I mean, he's just, he's a wonderful person. But if this is still weighing on him 40 years later, I really do hope you can find a professional to talk to. And if he does decide to pursue any of these options legally, I'm sure that they will bring up a lot of memories, a lot of difficult emotions, ones that he might have tucked away in order to just keep moving forward. And it would be really great if he had some support while he did that. And also, by the way, a therapist could help him think through these options. And then if he decides to pursue them, a therapist could be in this with him every step of the way. I think that's really important. Yeah, I agree, Gabe. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. What I know for sure is that this guy

needs to be held accountable, and there are children right now who need to be protected. To quote Corbyn one more time here, as somebody who has worked with a lot of people post-abuse, I appreciate Dave's willingness to contemplate reconfronting his past to protect other kids. And I second that, personally. I hope Dave finds the support he needs to work through this painful chapter and keep thriving. He's lucky to have you by his side. We're sending you both a big hug and wishing you all the best. Man, what a time.

I think the media angle might also be. Like a local journalist, if you send this stuff and say, by the way, this pedo runs a care and they go, well, how do we know he's a pedophile? And you said the journalist, the boy scouts or whatever the organization was, investigation and all of this other stuff, the journalist might go, oh my God, I got to verify all this. And they're pretty good at that. That's what investigative journalists do. Imagine that on the front page of the, I don't know where they are, but here it'd be like San Jose Mercury News or something. That's a nuclear bomb dropped right in the volcano core of this business. It's over. And the story there is not just, oh my God, there's a pedophile running a child care business in our

area, it's how do people like this end up being able to open these places? There's a much bigger question here. Fascinating. Right. So the investigative journalist is going, not only does this place need to get shut down in the area, but also, hey, I don't know, again, what state it is, but in California, be like, hey, licensing board, how is it that you don't check for this stuff? And then it's a shake up all the way to the top. And if there are victims at this daycare, it is lawsuits all the way down, as it should be. Lawsuits are what get big unaccountable public agencies to go, oh, new rule. We have to run our actual background check on these people or whatever, you know, whole. You know, I really hope that he is licensed so that they have these avenues to pursue.

Yes. I'm a little worried that he's running one of those child care businesses that's like, oh, I run it out of my house and I have an assistant. Right, I got a fence around my yard. Exactly. Yeah. And I kind of do this under the radar a little bit. Or I have fewer than X number of children. And in our state, you don't need a license if you have fewer than these many students or whatever.

So that's going to determine a lot here. But either way, I think you can still notify some authority. I mean, they could just pull a Josh and just put a sign on their line that points to his house and says molester. Oh, man, how perfect with that. I wish I'd save that so I could send it to them. You could have saved the sign. Just save you some a couple hours of work. Yep, that's right. And now, time for you all to take advantage of the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our sponsors that keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support this podcast are all in one searchable, clickable place. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those that support the show. All right, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, my girlfriend and I have been seeing each other for almost two years, and it's been phenomenal. Our level of closeness, intimacy, and trust is super high, and we've prided ourselves on our communication and ability to tackle tough issues

head on together. Until recently, we've lived several hours apart, so we've seen each other every couple of weeks on average. In between, we'd be in regular communication, texting back and forth, sending pictures, talking on the phone most days. Sometimes we'd even just have each other on the phone in the background while we worked, just to share a part of each other's day. Happily, she recently moved to take a position less than an hour away from me,

which is incredible, but the transition comes with its own challenges. This internship is demanding, with early morning starts and full days. She's working six to seven, 12 to 14 hour days of fairly physical work where her performance is scrutinized, she can't slack, and phone use is frowned upon. She's exhausted at the end of each day and wants nothing more than to eat, relax, and go to bed. I fully supported this new job and appreciate her drive for independence, and I encouraged her to pursue it.

I've been her biggest cheerleader, and I want to see her successful and fulfilled. We also both recently extricated ourselves from long-term toxic dysfunctional relationships, and she sees this move as an opportunity to be super independent and learn about herself as an individual. While maintaining our monogamous relationship, she wants to spend more time on her own, quote, do what she wants when she wants, unquote, and not need to ask permission or feel guilty about being social, enjoying her hobbies, exercising, etc., as she did with her oppressive ex. We agree on the importance of learning who we are as individuals, since none of that was possible before. A healthy future for us requires us to understand our own wants and needs.

But the rather sudden transition to full independence mode has been unexpectedly difficult and insecurity inducing. Communication has taken a huge hit, a total 180 from what we had before. We text infrequently, maybe a couple times a day, and talk on the phone even less. And I rarely hear from her unless I initiate the communication. She's kind of in her own little world now, and I often don't feel like I'm a part of it. Despite our open and honest communication, I feel that bringing these issues up during our limited time to talk lends a negative tone and triggers some of her avoidance style.

I don't want to discourage her from talking with me by complaining and dumping my own insecurities on her, so I try to keep those conversations cheery and loving and supportive. How can I best support my girlfriend and show her I care for her and love her without the regular communication through which we fell in love? what to support look like while giving someone's space at the same time? And how can I maintain my trust, insanity during this dramatically new phase? And yes, I'm already in therapy. Signed, sit tight despite my girlfriend's flight, or hang on tight when we barely say goodnight.

Well, first of all, I commend you and your girlfriend for trying to rewrite this codependent model for building a relationship that is very different from the ones you had before where you guys are connected but still allowed to be individuals. That is not easy to do. You guys seem to be handling all this with a lot of self-awareness and maturity, a lot of respect, trust in each other. I think that's awesome. It's inspiring, really.

But yeah, being individuals, given the other person time and space to develop, especially when you're young, which I gather you guys are, it can be really hard. These feelings you have, in a way, they're kind of the price you pay for allowing your partner to be her own person, allowing yourself to trust her, putting you and your girlfriend's growth above your comfort. It's not easy, but it is important. So it's interesting. You guys are great communicators

except now when you need to communicate about the lack of communication. And it sounds like there's a lot going on here. You're basically pretending everything's okay and being cheery, but really there's this very meaningful thing hanging between you. And by the way, if you feel it, I promise you she feels it too in some way.

So my advice is you gotta talk to your girlfriend about this. Look, it doesn't have to be combative or complainy, whiny. It doesn't have to be you dumping all your insecurities on her. And by have to, I mean, you should not do that. If I were in your shoes, I might say something like, listen, I want you to know,

I care about you a lot. I'm still so excited for you to be chasing this opportunity. Obviously, it's a lot harder to talk as much as we use to while you're away, and I know that was part of the deal. I'm still 100% supportive of you pursuing your goals and being your own person, and I don't want our relationship to get in the way of that. And it's been a little hard for me to not feel as connected to you lately. Honestly, I haven't wanted to share this with you because I don't want the little time we do have together to be sad or burdensome, but I also don't want to pretend with you or hide how I'm feeling. So I'm just sharing this. I'm not necessarily asking you to do anything about it. This might not even be a huge problem. It's just something that's come up for me.

But where are you? How are you feeling? What's it like not being in touch as often? Is there anything you'd like to share with me? That's how you can be supportive and loving while still giving her space. By reminding her that you're still her champion, you're not demanding anything of her right off the bat. You're giving to the freedom to live her life and to empathize with you a little bit. Now that conversation could go in a few different directions. She might say, oh man, thank you for telling me. I'm feeling the same way. It sucks.

I'm sorry, but it's temporary. We're great. She might also say, wow, good to know. Okay, I can do a little better. Let me make more of an effort to stay in touch. Or she might tell you that the time apart has brought up some things for her too and share some of those things with you.

Whatever she says back, I promise you it's going to be a net positive because the only mistake you can make here is not being open with your partner or doing right by yourself. And you got to remember saying, I miss you, I feel distant. It doesn't mean, hey, I'm right about this and you need to change. It just means, hey, here's a feeling I'm having, let's check it out together. It might be enough just to share this with her.

Know that she gets it, she cares, maybe confirm that you guys are still connected, even if you don't talk. Or if her feelings have shifted, which I know that's not fun to think about. I'm not saying that's what's going on, but we have to acknowledge the possibility. It's obviously important for you to know that.

And by the way, that's also how you can maintain your trust and sanity during this phase. And it's also one of the most heartfelt things you can do to remind her that you're still here. It's hard to deal with those feelings alone. And it's hard to know that your trust is warranted when you're not being totally open with the person that you're supposed to trust. That creates a gap in which your worst thoughts and feelings can grow. And having this conversation is a way to narrow that gap and see if these feelings are

actually warranted. My only caveat is, and this is sort of like former dating coach Jordan chiming in here, you can and should bring this up, but I wouldn't bring it up every week for the next two months because there's a difference between sharing a legit feeling and becoming needy and sucking up what little energy she has left at the end of the day, which could really compromise the relationship. This is not me telling you not to have this conversation, but just something to keep an eye on, because you could inadvertently create the result that you most fear.

Yeah, that's a really good point, and this is why he has a therapist, because there's a piece of this problem that he's having with his girlfriend that is his, and he can work some of those feelings out on his own, but some of them are for them to work out together. But you know, Jordan, I think this is also an opportunity for him to show her a new way of navigating these conversations that does not require her to withdraw, since that seems to be her pattern, right? And if she does, he can say, okay, I feel you pulling away a little bit or avoiding this. I think I can understand why, but I'm still here.

I'm not going anywhere. I really think we can work through this if we talk. So tell me what's going on. What's coming up for you? The problem is that the more he cramps around her avoidant style as a way to keep her close, the more he's risking that she will actually drift away through a combination of both their avoidances. So leaning into this is actually the best thing they could do. But I think we have to recognize one more thing here, which is how they were

relating before she left for this internship. He said that they were super connected, they would talk all the time, they would leave their phones on in the background just to spend part of their days together. That is very sweet. But I also wonder if that was his way of getting the reassurance he needed before he realized he needed it. And now that she's away, he's not getting that. And it's laying bare this anxiety of his. It's also possible that the level of contact, as sweet as it was, she might have experienced it as somewhat smothering or something? And is that maybe what? why she felt the need to go on this adventure, maybe. Well, now we're planting ideas on this guy's head.

But right, yeah, was she thinking maybe without even realizing it, I'm losing myself in this relationship, this is too much, I need to carve out space for me. I mean, I could relate to that. Look, obviously, we cannot know for sure. She might have loved those phone calls and decided that she needed to grow as a professional, and this is not what is happening. But this would be a really important thing for them to talk about.

The reason I bring it up is, he's probably like, why are you telling me this? I don't want this in my head. But the reason I'm bringing this up is, the story here might be we used to be super connected, and now we're temporarily not, and that's really hard. But the story could also be, we were a little too connected, and now we're having to disentangle a little bit in a healthy way,

which is a different thing. That would be something else I would want to understand in this conversation with her. You know, it's funny. I went through something kind of similar. So when Jen and I were first dating, I was taking a bunch of courses that were really easy. And like courses that had low-staking. It's like urban survival and evasion

where I was like, this is really easy. Yeah, as one does. This was your survivalist phase? This is me, you know, doomsday prepper or survive in the zombie apocalypse. No, I don't know. I was just taking this crazy class with this sort of Neil Strausian class.

Okay. And I was texting her like all day, every day during this class because I didn't need to pay that much attention. It was like really basic for me, the classroom stuff. It was like me and a bunch of old cops and, you know, retired sort of spy types or wannabe spy types. And afterwards, I got actually busy again with work, and she was like, oh, we're not texting as much anymore.

What does this mean? You used to be so much more available. And I'm like, I wasn't doing anything. And now I'm busier. This is actually normal. The other way was the not normal way. And she's like, oh, okay. And then it just took a while for her to get used to that because it was the exception that I was available to text her every two minutes, nonstop for eight hours a day. Right. Right. Like, I was literally just stuck in a chair and didn't have to run a business. So there might be a parallel here. We're like, he's like, oh my God, we're not talking as much. Yeah, you went through. the honeymoon phase and you all had a bunch of time. Now, that's sort of over, but it doesn't mean your relationship is over. Anyway, I just had one last thought for our friend here, which is, your girlfriend is off having this really significant experience. She's investing in herself. She's building new relationships. She's evolving a lot. And that's hard, but look, that's awesome, right? It's good. So I'm wondering, what are you doing with this time apart? How are you making the most of it? Because you could spend this time sitting at home worrying about whether you can trust your

girlfriend, feeling uneasy and trying to distract yourself with Xbox or whatever. Or, you could try to use this chapter to grow as an individual too. Maybe you tackle a couple projects you never had time for. Maybe you start building some new friendships of your own. Maybe you take a trip or two trips with a friend. You get some distance. You brought in your own horizons. I don't know. Take Spanish classes, bro. Whatever. The story that you seem to be working with right now is my girlfriend has gone off to have this profound experience and I'm stuck here worrying whether she still loves me or she's going to come back. But there's another story here which is my girlfriend is off having this amazing experience and I'm creating my own and it's hard not to be as

connected as we once were, but we're both growing, and this is the relationship we wanted to not lose ourselves in each other to do the codependent thing that we used to do before. Maybe part of the solution here is being more proactive in your own goals, taking a cue from your girlfriend, using this time to work on yourself too. I bet if you did that, it wouldn't sting quite as much when she doesn't, like, FaceTime you on the way to and from work. So be honest, stay connected, take a cue from your girlfriend and pursue your goals too, but also remember that these challenges are par for the course in a highly independent, productive, healthy partnership. If you didn't want to feel these things, you guys could just be in a

codependent, restrictive relationship like the ones you guys had before. This relationship is pushing you to increase your capacity for all of these feelings. And frankly, that's a gift. And I'm proud of you for trying things in a different way. I wish you both the best of luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your stepdad's got your news, your friends getting out of prison for murder or your entitled nephew has revealed himself as a Holocaust denier.

Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at, whenever I read these things in a row, I'm just like, what crazy-ish we get in this inbox on this show? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Oh, yes, of course, we bit wiser, our newsletter.

It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode, from us to you, delivered right to your inbox once a week on Wednesday. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 1,000 plus episodes and apply it to your life, it's a two-minute read, it's practical, it's a great companion to the show. You can sign up Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. All right, what's next? Salue, Jordan, and Gabe.

I'm a small business owner in my mid-40s. I have a great family and a reasonably successful business, and I'm in good health. As one of the partners in my business and the CEO, a fair amount of my time is allocated to working with clients and staff. and that is really challenging for me. Nine years ago, two years after starting my business, I suffered a traumatic brain injury. I lost my sense of smell, dealt with a change of personality,

and lost my executive function to the point that I could not even read well. All the words would come at me at once and I struggled to read to my children as I would form sentences from words that I would perceive from all over on both pages. Oh my God, this is so intense. Gosh, can you imagine not being able to,

That would just terrify me. I understand why that's scary. I understand why this is earth-shaking for you. That's so, what a bizarre way. I got into a minor scrap with my towel rack, and I had two or three days of mild concussion symptoms. This is like a whole other level. That's so intense.

To clarify here, it sounds, Gabe, like what he's saying is he would open a book, and instead of reading the lines on the left, the words would just jump off both pages into his brain, and it didn't make any sense. Like, that's... Yeah, it's like being John Nash without the brilliance. Right, yeah. You're just trying to tie strings of yarn

in Thumbtack the words together so you can read your bedtime story to your kid. I was able to successfully address the personality and executive function issues by just simply not giving up. I read book after book after book until I could read again. I learned French and am working on learning Russian. Wow. I spent time meditating and doing therapy and still do. Wow. That's really cool. First of all, those are not, well, French is easy-ish Russian, totally different alphabet, different grammar. I mean, that's hard even when you don't have brain damage. So you are an inspiration, hell of a comeback from what sounds like a life-changing injury. But my social battery just won't change no matter how much time I spend trying to improve it,

at least by my usual approach, of stubborn persistence. I can't spend more than a couple of hours a day working with people before I start to lose my focus. I also lose my ability to be deeply engaged after about three hours of social interaction and will withdraw into myself. If I have a long social day, I have a hard time being present with my family when I get home from work. Listening to your interview with Susan Kane and reading her book on the power of introverts really helped me start to accept who I am. I currently try to manage my social calendar to not exceed more than 15% of my day, but this is challenging for me. I want and feel obligated to be there for staff and clients. All my life, I've been able to overcome obstacles by simply

focusing on my goals until I've succeeded. I was once embarrassed by my math skills. I was once embarrassed by my math skills, so I took the calculus series in college and ended up graduating as a math major. I had a schizoaffective mom whose manic episodes would greatly disrupt my college career. So when things got bad, I would drop out, handle my business, and get right back to school. Wow. Okay, sorry, before we go on, remind me what that is again, is that, is that like diet schizophrenia? Diet schizophrenia. Yeah, let's go write a letter to the DSM and tell them to update the terms. I'm not trying to make a light of it. I just don't really know what it actually is. The diet schizophrenia, it's like schizophrenia with half the calories.

So people with schizoaffective disorder have a mix of schizophrenia symptoms like hallucinations and delusions. And then they also have mood disorder symptoms like depression and mania. That's awful. So like the best of both worlds, I suppose. That's really terrible. Yeah, quite not easy to live with. I imagine.

Super sad. No. So he goes on, so much of my life has rewarded me for being unrelenting in my pursuits. but after nine years, nothing has budged for me here. Is one's social battery a fixed trait? Is there anything I can do that I'm missing? How do I balance my obligations and my traits

in a way that minimizes negative consequences for myself and others? Signed, looking for the lever and struggling with the pressure to succeed in this endeavor of being available to whomever when my capacity now is simply lesser. Wow, what a story. First of all, like I said a moment ago, you're an absolute rock star man to experience a TBI this severe

heal yourself through what sounds like essentially sheer willpower in the miracle of nature, right? Things healing themselves. It's incredibly inspiring, but it sounds like that's part of a larger pattern in your life of meeting challenges with a ton of strength,

resilience, and hard work. Like you said, you are unrelenting in your pursuits. This story about taking a calculus class when you weren't good at math and then majoring in it, having a mother with schizoaffective disorder, this is major adversity.

And I just really understand. admire you. And yes, I'm counting math as major adversity because it would be for me. So look, I don't know whether your social battery is a fixed trade. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a psychologist. I'm barely qualified to run a podcast and I don't know you personally. But it sounds like you've worked really hard on every aspect of your personality. And if you're not seeing progress in this one department, given how unrelenting you are, it might be one area where you need to give yourself some grace and adjust your expectations. You're already doing this by putting boundaries around your social time. I think that's excellent. Honestly, from what I hear, all great leaders do that, even the ones without

TBIs, okay? You need to protect your time and energy to do deep solo work. You also have to make sure that you're available to your family when you get home. You're not just a leader, you're a parent and a partner. So I think you're being responsible here with that level of energy, the faculties that you have. And maybe in a weird way, this symptom of the TBI has given you permission to be even more disciplined and boundaryed, which is kind of a cool thing. By the way, of all the excuses to be introverted, literal brain damage is probably one of the best I've ever heard. Like, hey man, you want to go clubbing?

No, one, I'm 44 and two. I have brain damage. I can't do it. That is an airtight excuse right there. Absolutely. How are you going to argue with that? But I'm also wondering about the quality of these social interactions with staff and clients, right?

It's exhausting to just interact with people for hours a day, even if you enjoy it. But there might also be something about the way you're interacting with people that's particularly draining. For example, I wonder if, if you're offering these people more than you absolutely need to, or you feel responsible to them or for them,

or maybe you're expending a lot of cognitive energy making sure that you're firing on all cylinders, or you're wondering how you're coming across to them, and that's part of what's so draining. In other words, is it just about the hours you spend with these people, or is it about what's going on inside of you while you're interacting with them? Maybe even how these people continue to occupy space in you throughout the day, even after you part ways.

You know, Jordan, that is a really good point, And something tells me that that is playing a big role here because we're hearing from a guy who famously gives 200% of his energy to achieve his goals. So he probably engages very deeply, very generously with his staff, with his clients. That might be extra exhausting. But also we're hearing from a guy who sounds pretty attuned to other people's needs, right? He talked about his employees, his staff, his children when he reads to them, it's a wonderful quality. And it's probably a big reason that he beat this TBI and has thrived in general. in his career. But I also suspect that that quality developed very early in life because let's remember

his mom had severe mental illness. So just imagine growing up with a parent who suffers from schizoaffective disorder. My guess is that he learned to be very alert to his mother's symptoms to constantly read the room to make sure she was okay so that he could make sure he was okay, right? Which is what all human beings do, but especially ones with parents who are more unpredictable. And then he said when he got older, whenever she had epistemical, he would drop out of college, presumably to go take care of her until she was stable again, and then he would go back to school, which I would be curious to know if he really needed to do that, or if she made him feel that he needed to do that, or if he just took it upon himself to do,

which I would not be surprised if he did. And that's my point, actually, this relationship with his mother, taking care of her, sometimes putting her needs above his own sometimes, and then plowing right back into his life and playing catch up and just pushing forward however he can. he might have taken that template into the rest of his life. And so I can imagine that when an employee or a client needs something from him, or even maybe when they don't, he might give them so much more of himself than he absolutely needs to

because that's how he's learned to be. Like he said, he doesn't just want to be there for his staff and clients. In his words, he feels obligated to be there. And it might feel like even more of a failure to him if he makes peace with the limits of his social battery because, you know, he prides himself so much on being the guy who is unrelenting, who can achieve anything through this stubborn persistence of his. So what I'm hearing in his letter is not just how do I work with my limited capacity for this stuff, but more like, how do I give up this

source of gratification at surpassing my limits? How do I deal with the anxiety and maybe even a little bit of shame around accepting that I might not be Superman? You know, especially in this department, I have been so well trained for since I was a child. I kind of think that's what he's truly wrestling with. I think you're right. He has a lot of his ego and identity wrapped up in this I can beat anything mindset, and I get it. I would too, and he should be proud of that.

It's amazing. But this is also an opportunity for him to look at that part of his personality and just give himself a little grace. He doesn't need to be perfect, whatever that means, in order to be effective. You sound like a terrific leader and involved father and all around awesome human being. All of these people are lucky to have you.

But that doesn't mean they require all of you all the time, and you're not necessarily failing by working within your limits. You're honoring them, making the most of the energy you do have. So play with these ideas, see if they help. You got this, man. Good luck. And now some deals so good, they'll give you brain damage. You're welcome. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. If you can't find a code, you're not sure if the code's working. I'm happy to service that stuff for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 31 years old, and I currently work in a restaurant as a cook.

We're lacking staff, so I took on some other tasks, even though I wasn't required to. I can say that I am the hardest working person in the place only after my boss. Now that they've seen what I can do, they take it for granted that it's my job to do all of those tasks. I'm not complaining, though, because I believe we should do more than what we're expected to do. I can tell the bosses adore me, and they raised my salary after nine months instead of one year, as they did with the others. Awesome. Love your mindset, love this quality. So do I. Big fan of this. My mom recently sent me a video advising me not to work too fast, because,

bosses will just assign you more tasks. The message was, stick with your primary work and don't take on more responsibilities because you will be taken advantage of. I've also heard someone say to not go around offering to do free stuff for everyone hoping to get ahead. I actually disagree, but there are a few caveats to that. Yeah, we'll get into all that in a moment. But I'm actually hoping to get ahead, and so I don't mind doing things that no one wants to do. I'm planning to work for myself in a few years time, so my idea is to give the best of myself to learn as much as possible. When should I say no and put a limit around my time at work? Or should I continue to do as much as I can? What does your ideal employee look like? If you worked for someone else, what type of employee would you be? Signed, a hard

working cook, hoping to get in my boss's good books by hook or by crook without becoming a schnuck. Once again, Gabe, going ham in the sign-offs today. Get that mustard out. That sign-off was longer than this woman's hours. Longer than the list of responsibilities no one asks her to take on. That's right. So these are great questions. In general, I am of course a big believer in giving 150% at a job or at least going above and beyond and looking for ways to be of service, especially at the beginning, because A, if everyone does that, a team can achieve absolutely incredible things. B, it feels good. It's inspiring. It's gratifying. It's just a great way to show up in the world. And C, it's hands down the best way to learn and create opportunities for yourself, whether it's

getting a raise or a promotion or jumping to a job that you want more. We talk about that when people write in asking how to land a promotion. Our advice is generally give yourself the promotion in your mind first, do more than what's asked of you, and basically show your bosses why you are worth more money than you're getting and the title that you're asking for, which is precisely what you're doing. But here's my big caveat. You should go above and beyond until you've done the work for a reasonable amount of time. And to be clear, that depends on the unique circumstances of your job. And until you realize you are not being rewarded in some meaningful way. And that could be money. It could be a title. It could even just be validation. It could be growing and learning for your

own sake so you can take those skills to your next job or into your own company. You get to decide what makes something rewarding. At a certain point, yes, employers can absolutely take advantage of you or just take you for granted. And it's important to realize when that's happening. That's when you push back or you pull back and place a limit around your time when it's no longer an appropriate investment on your part, but an exploitative arrangement. In your case, the restaurant gave you a raise three months earlier than everybody else, which tells me that they do value you to some degree, plus you're growing as a professional, you're investing in yourself, which is important. But is that compensation enough? Are these skills you're acquiring still valuable?

Are you learning enough to justify the long hours and hard work? Those are all questions you have to answer for yourself, and you have to check in with yourself regularly to make sure. My ideal employee, honestly, they probably look a lot like you. I love people who take initiative, who are resourceful, hardworking, generous. I like to think that I'm the kind of boss who rewards those qualities, or if they're not necessary, the kind of boss who goes, hey, thank you for doing that, but there's no need. But beyond that, my dream employee is also positive, flexible, self-directed, curious, passionate. I also like people who genuinely care about my product and get the spirit of what we do here.

I don't like hiring people who are too mercenary about this kind of career. And if I worked for someone else, I mean, hashtag unemployable at this point, but I try to be all of those things too. Candidly, I find it hard to lead with those qualities when it's not my own business. And that's probably why I'm not the best employee or wouldn't be, not anymore anyway. I was decent as a learning associate, a lawyer, but I wouldn't say I was the perfect soldier by any means. In fact, I was too independent in a lot of things.

I got a lot of flack for that. A lot of the reasons I was not cut out for corporate were the exact traits that make me successful as an entrepreneur. That's neither here nor there. It sounds like you might be the same. You plan to work for yourself one day, which I applaud. But this period of being an employee who gives way more than she's expected to, I'm absolutely sure that'll end up being super useful when you branch out on your own.

And it'll help you size people up when you're in a position to hire too. So I say keep going, but just keep an eye on whether you're still reaping the benefits to. Sometimes that means speaking up and asking for what you want, like another raise or a promotion to sous chef or whatever. and sometimes that means running with what you've learned and applying it somewhere more lucrative or meaningful as soon as possible. And you sound like a rock star.

Once again, good for you and good luck. All right, my recommendation of the week, hear me out here, Venus flytrap. That is not a euphemism or like a product you haven't heard of. Literally go to the plant store and get a Venus flytrap. Trader Joe's has them now. We bought one on impulse

and we opened the back slider doors and flies come in because we're cooking or whatever. We have this weird metal net thing that you put over fruit to keep, I guess, flies away from food and fruit and we trap the thing on the window by turning the lights off, it flies onto the window. We trap it on the window

and then we trap it in a smaller cup and then we slide a paper between the cup and the cup and then we put the cup with the trap flying it over the top of the terrarium with the Venus fly trap and it flies around, it flies around, it flies around, and then it goes, oh, let me just land on the ground and see what's going on.

And you watch this thing, just crawl in to the Venus fly trap and get stuck in there and I cannot tell you how disproportionately crazy my entire family. It's like watching the Super Bowl. We are screaming and clapping and jumping up and down. The kids are excited. I'm talking about me and Jen too.

The kids are excited too, of course, but we are just going nuts. And my dad's like, okay, I guess we didn't need to buy you all those expensive toys over the years. We just need to get you a Venus Flytrap. It is so hilariously fun. And these things are probably dirt cheap. It's just a plant.

That's so fascinating. You're hunting on behalf of your plant. Venus flytrops freak me out because they are creepy. Are they plants or are they animals? No, it's a plant, man. It's a plant. It doesn't swallow the prey. It just closes a red. There's little hairs in there. Oh, I thought Venus flytrops eat the flies. They do. But what happens is the pods or whatever they're called, they have those spiky things on them.

Yeah. There's little hairs in the mouth of the pod or whatever. The fly crawls in there. The hairs trigger it to close. The spiky parts close a little bit first so that it can't fly out. and then the actual pod closes. And I've seen them after 10 days or so, they open up and all that's left is like this ashy exoskeleton of the fly. It digests it right inside the pot.

Yeah, so they are eating the fly. They are eating the fly. Yeah. They're digesting it. So it's kind of straddling two different species. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, it's a carnivorous plant. Wow.

When I was in the Amazon, we saw them and they were so big that you could probably put your arm in there. No way. Yeah, I mean, I was like, Would that hurt? And the guy was like, no, you just pull your arm out. Oh, my God. And I was like, really?

What do they eat? And he's like, birds. Oh, my God. I've never heard of that. So we saw some that had just like bird bones and feathers in them. Wow, the Amazon has crazy stuff, doesn't it? The Amazon just has dinosaur level everything. That's wild.

Yeah, it's so creepy. Like a hummingbird or some equivalent from the Amazon just flies in there and that's the end. Incredible. So gnarly. Now, the Amazon wants to kill you, period. All right. In case you all don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. if you want to jump into discussions

with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode you've really liked, an episode you didn't like, you want to share thoughts on the show, chat with other people and the show fam,

including Gabriel and myself. Check it out. There's a lot of really interesting, cool conversations happening over there. It's on Reddit. Just search for Jordan Harbinger. You'll find the Jordan Harbinger

subreddit. All right, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Six years ago, I ended a relationship with a narcissist who was mostly verbally, but sometimes physically abusive.

I never would have expected this from him he was such a well-liked guy, funny, charming, and adventurous. But sure enough, as narcissistic progression goes, soon after we started dating, he started to show signs. I ignored them, mostly because I had been single for a while and figured I was overthinking some of the signs. I had convinced myself that I was the problem, because I had waited so long for a movie-like romance. Fast-forward seven years in the relationship. I had been completely isolated from my family and friends, convinced I didn't want marriage or kids and become depressed, anxious, and dependent on the relationship.

I spent many days feeling worthless for the smallest of things. Like one time he cut himself on a potato peeler, but it was my fault because I put it in a drawer that would sometimes get stuck so he couldn't see it. Some nights when he would rage, he would shake and tell me that I needed to stop making him angry because I know what will happen if I don't. One night, he beat me for six hours straight. my God. I screamed for help, but none of my neighbors did a thing. I spent most of that night thinking, will my family know it was him who killed me? This is horrible. Oh my God, I'm so deeply sorry that

you went through all this. This is incredibly serious abuse. One day, while out with a friend who had just lost her husband to cancer, we started to discuss our relationships. Hers was loving and kind and generous. Mine was a hot mess. For the first time ever, I told her everything except the physical abuse, shared all of these terrible things that had been totally normalized in my relationship, and my friend just looked at me in horror. The more I said, the more I realized how little people knew of my relationship and how well I hit it. When we finished, she said, so what are we going to do about this? I said, I think I'm going to leave him. She said, oh yes, you most certainly are. She was like a protective older sister, and hearing her say this

made me feel so safe. A few days later, I did it. I slowly started planning my escape. I bought a house and put it in just my name. I started collecting things I would need after we split. I started reestablishing relationships with friends and family. Then, one day, after a work party, I attended alone, he started pounding on the bathroom door and demanding I come out immediately

and tell him why some random person dropped me off at our house. The random person was an Uber driver. Oh my God. I told him I'd be out in a second, but he'd be out in a second, He ignored that and almost broke the door down. I calmly finished, opened the door, and said, you want to talk? Let's talk. Get the fuck out of my house because I'm done.

I'm beyond done. We are done. Pack your shit and leave. Damn. Good for you. Wow, that must have taken some real cahones. Also, though, sounds terrifying. So scary.

Yeah, scary. He was beside himself. He never saw this day coming. I was shocked because I didn't know I had it in me. It felt amazing. I had taken the first step to getting my life back. Hell yeah. I'm so glad that worked out and did not turn violent, though. It took some time to get him out. He tried manipulating situations and pretending to be a better person,

but I knew the ugly within him, and I was no longer fooled. Once those ties were cut, it was so refreshing. It was like coming up for air that I had never tasted before. Everything was wonderful, and life was great, and I no longer felt like I couldn't breathe. I'm now happily married to the most wonderful man. we live a beautiful life and I couldn't feel more blessed if I tried. And while parts of the trauma still come up, therapy and my husband's patience have helped me process and cope with all of the things that happened. For anyone out there who's scared to leave,

I want you to know that there is another side to life that can be everything you have ever wanted. It is in the personality of a narcissist to make you believe that it's not, but I can tell you from experience that it is. I can also say that your narcissistic relationship is going to teach you strength you didn't know you had. the hardest part of moving on is putting the change in motion. And for those who are worried about what happens to them,

because again, that's how narcissists keep us hooked. Don't worry, they bounce right back. They aren't as helpless as they pretend to be. They are resourceful, and they will not take long to use their tactics to get right back into a cushy situation. Best of luck to everyone who needed to hear this, and I am rooting for you. Signed, a woman on a mission,

and sincerely hoping you'll listen, how she managed to escape this prison, if you happen to be stuck in a similar position. Well, I think this letter speaks for itself, so I'm not sure how much I have to add to what this listener has said so beautifully. When Gabe and I read this one, we were obviously very moved by it.

We get a lot of letters from people in abusive relationships or dealing with narcissistic partners, so we wanted to share this with all of you. And I want to thank our friend here for being so courageous and for sharing her story with all of us. You know, it's interesting, Gabe.

One of the themes that kept popping up in today's letters was considering a new narrative, right? Yeah. The guy trying to stay close with his independent girlfriend, we encouraged him to create a bigger narrative about what this chapter

and their relationship is about, what it means. The guy struggling with the low social battery, he has a certain narrative about his ability to overcome challenges, what people need from him, what does limitations say about him? And he's on the brink of maybe

discovering a new one, a very liberating one. Even our friend from the last question, the one who's giving 150% at work, she's trying to decide which narrative to embrace. That you shouldn't work too hard or you'll be exploited

or that you should always go above and beyond because that's how you stand out and get ahead. And now we have this woman whose story is really about discovering a new narrative for herself and then willing that narrative to life by making some big moves and taking some big risks, which literally saved her life potentially. And it's one of the things we think about a lot on the show, something I think about a lot in my own life too. How do we create new narratives for ourselves? How do we break out of negative circumstances, open up new possibilities for our lives? In a lot of ways, that's a story. It's a kind of dream. Even if that dream is just, I want to live alone,

or I want to be this kind of employee and dreaming that dream, writing that story for yourself. It takes a lot of courage, a ton of faith, a willingness to tolerate uncertainty and venture into new situations you can't possibly predict.

And I'm just fascinated by how certain people do that, how they dig deep and find these new narratives inside of them, and then take concrete steps in the world, whether it's leaving an abusive partner or moving to a new city or signing up for a course or taking a trip. These moves can be huge

or they can be very small. It's just very inspiring to hear about it. And honestly, it makes me wonder how I can be more this way in my own life because we all need to do this from time to time, even if we're not in as dire a situation as our friend here. Could not agree more. This is a, I mean, how do you put? It's a remarkable letter. I mean, that moment in the bathroom, I can't even imagine saying that to somebody who beat me for six hours straight one day. I mean, that's horrifying.

But what a great discovery to find that this narcissistic, controlling guy was basically no match for your conviction, for your resolution. for your resolve. Yeah. But the other thing that this letter captures really nicely for me is we rarely rewrite these narratives alone. It was only when she told her story to that friend, and it wasn't even the full story. She left out the worst parts. It was only then that she was able to see how dangerous her situation really was.

And then her friend was like, so what are we going to do about this? And she validated her and supported her and gave her the safety and the confidence that she needed to get out. So yeah, I agree with you, Jordan. One of our superpowers is digging deep and finding these new narratives inside of our but I think we often need people, other people, to sort of dream those dreams with us. I know I do. And relationships like these make these narratives doable. They make them real. Totally, yeah. This is why I'm always banging on about investing in people. It's not just about,

you know, getting leads on job opportunities and having someone to grab a beer with when you move to Newtown. Those benefits are great, but you never know how someone might literally change the course of your life just by listening to you, supporting you when you really need it. The last thing I want to say about this letter is, Gabe, remember last week we took a letter from the woman who felt like she was like a fringe friend. She was struggling to find a solid friend group. Yes. So this is the one who had been kicked out of her friend group and then she felt like she just didn't have this natural X factor charisma to have friends. Yes. Yes. So we talked about a few possibilities there. But the main one was, are you sure you're really available to people? Are you risking being vulnerable with them? Are you sharing these real parts of yourself with the right people before you try to invent a more attractive? social persona. And look, our friend here, she wouldn't have had this wake up

if she hadn't taken a chance and opened up about a very painful and apparently quite shameful part of her life. She didn't even go all the way and look at the impact that it had. So that's my other big takeaway from the story, just how important it is to take a chance and open up. I can't even imagine how hard it is

to tell a close friend, somebody who probably thinks they know you pretty well. Hey, my partner's a massive narcissist and I'm being abused. But look what can happen when you're willing to let someone in. And I bet their friendship is deeper and more meaningful than ever. So you've shared some excellent insights into narcissistic personalities, how they often crumble, how you sometimes actually

don't need to worry about them too much. But what you've really done is reminded everyone, including me, that there's always more life to live if you're willing to live it and we're surrounded by good people. And I'm insanely proud of you for getting out of this relationship and reinventing your life. Thank you for sharing your story. And thank you to all the other listeners who shared theirs this week, go back and check out Nina Alck and our skeptical Sunday on the placebo and nocebo effects if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, just like we're talking about today on the show, the circle of people I know like and trust and open up to and who open up to me. And I'm

teaching you how to build that for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is 100% free. It's not gross. It's not sort of like mechanical and schmoozy. It's on the thinkific platform at six-minute networking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you're thirsty folks, build those relationships before you need to lean on them. You can find it once again at six minute networking.com. Show notes, transcripts, Jordan Harbinger.com is where you find those advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show,

all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi, our advice and opinions are our own.

And I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show

so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night. I was at a magic convention in Wales.

I was wearing a three piece of velvet suit. Because why not? Because why not? So this guy is, you know, he's really drunk and he's clearly looking for a fight. And he's with his girlfriend and all his adrenaline is kind of, you know, up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at or what's your problem or something? In that situation, you can't respond with,

Oh, I'm not looking at anything, because then you're on the back foot and they've got power. Or, yeah, I'm looking at you. What's your problem? Because either way, you're going to get hit. But you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. So his reaction to that is a bit of a pause. He's like, what?

And I said, oh, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. And I lived in Spain, the walls that were quite high. But here, they're tiny, I mean, nothing. So he then, he just went, oh, fuck. And started crying. His girlfriend walked off, and he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody.

There had been some fight, and weirdly then I'm giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing, and he was an artist, and used to walk home from his studio late at night through a rough bit of London. And there were always these kind of gangs on one side of the road, so he'd always cross over away from them. Of course, they'd always see that, and it's always this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating things. So we spoke about it, and then the next night he crossed over the road to them and said, Good evening, as he walked past them.

Of course, they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange... Yeah, I don't touch it. He's crazy. He's just weird. Yeah. Who wants to see a magic trick? For an inside look at the levers in our own brain, alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists, check out episode 150 of the Jordan Harbinger

show. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic dive deep into how this stuff spreads. From Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former left is. get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode of checkout is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiruality Podcast will help you stay informed

against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspiruality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast, focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your

podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.