The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1073: Fluoride | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: November 3, 2024

On this Skeptical Sunday, Jessica Wynn brushes away fluoride fears and gets to the root of this controversial mineral's cavity-fighting powers! On This Week's Skeptical Sunday, We Discuss: Fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral found in water, soil, and food that helps prevent tooth decay by strengthening tooth enamel and making teeth more resistant to acid. When added to water supplies at controlled levels, it has been shown to reduce cavity rates by 40-70% in children. The discovery of fluoride's benefits came from investigating "Colorado Brown Stain" in the early 1900s, where researchers found that while high fluoride levels stained teeth brown, it also made them remarkably resistant to decay. This led to research determining safe, effective fluoride levels for water supplies. Despite widespread scientific consensus on its safety and effectiveness, fluoride remains controversial, with some groups claiming health risks. However, extensive research has found no evidence linking properly fluoridated water to cancer, bone problems, or other serious health issues at recommended levels. The optimal fluoride level in water has been adjusted over time as other sources of fluoride (like toothpaste and food products) have become more common. In 2015, the US Public Health Service lowered its recommended levels, showing ongoing monitoring and adjustment of public health policies. You can take control of your dental health by understanding your local water fluoride levels (easily found on the CDC website), using fluoride toothpaste appropriately, and making informed choices about water filtration — while remembering that every $1 spent on water fluoridation saves about $38 in dental healthcare costs! Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know! Connect with Jessica Wynn and subscribe to her newsletter: Between the Lines! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1073 If you love listening to this show as much as we love making it, would you please peruse and reply to our Membership Survey here? And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! This Episode Is Brought To You By...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host writer and researcher Jessica Wynn. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, it's Skeptical Sunday, we're a rotating guest guest. co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions

about that topic. Topics such as why the Olympics are kind of a sham, circumcision, sovereign citizens, diet supplements, the lottery, reiki healing, ear-candling, self-help cults, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, fluoride, the lips macken curiosity in our water supply. It's a fascinating mineral that's a hero for our teeth, but a puzzle for a lot of the general public.

We associate it with dental health, but in some mouths, the fluoride added to our water leaves a bad taste. So what is fluoride? Why is it in our water? Will this lead to mind control via our Fawcett's researcher and writer Jessica Wynn joins me to wash away the confusion around fluoride. Right. Hey, Jordan. Thanks for having me back on Skeptical Sunday. Yeah, welcome back.

All right, let's dive in. So first of all, what is fluoride exactly? I know I said it's a mineral, but that's kind of where my knowledge begins and ends. Yeah, well, fluoride is a mineral and it occurs naturally in water, soil, air. It's found in a lot of our food. We just absorb it all the time. Okay. But it's also something that is added to.

drinking water on purpose, right? Yeah, for sure. It can be. I mean, fluoride strengthens tooth enamel, making our teeth more resistant to acid, and it stops cavities from forming. So fluoride can even help to rebuild our tooth's surface. And water fluoridation, that is adding it to the public water supply, provides frequent and consistent contact with low levels of fluoride, and this prevents tooth decay. It's amazing. So you say it occurs naturally, but where does it actually come from? Well, fluoride is the 13th most abundant element in the earth's crust. So when water moves through spaces between rocks, fluoride just, it dissolves naturally into the water. The amount varies depending on where in the world your water comes from. So natural fluoride levels range from

barely perceptible to over 10 parts per million. So that doesn't sound like much, but what do I know? 10 parts per million, is that a lot? How do they even measure something that's small? It's actually quite impressive. I know it's hard to conceptualize, but it is not a lot. 10 parts per million is the same as 0.009 milligrams per liter. If you want to think about it in a more solid way, one ppm is comparable.

to one inch and 16 miles. So yeah, not a lot. But fluoride, it's everywhere. It's in all our water sources. It's in rivers, lakes, surface water, but it's really, really trace amounts. If it's in all natural water, then why do we also then add it to our water supply? I don't understand. Yeah, well, it's a balance. So we add it to reduce cavities among the population. That's it. I mean, fluoridation, it's not actually required in any community. in America. And the Safe Drinking Water Act prohibits the EPA from mandating the addition of any substances to our drinking water, but every town just votes on it. And by the time that fluoride reaches humans, it's absorbed into the blood through the digestive tract, and then it collects in areas

with high calcium content like our bones and teeth. It's estimated to reduce tooth decay in children by 40 to 70%. Wow. Okay. That's great. But how does it actually work? Well, fluoride works in three different ways. It reduces the ability of plaque bacteria to produce acid. It strengthens tooth enamel and it's absorbed into the crystalline structure of tooth enamel, making it harder for acids to attack our teeth. I mean, fluoride is objectively effective in lowering cavity rates in children and there's a lot of evidence it does the same for adults. But there's just not as many studies on adults, so it's unclear how much it actually helps, like our teeth. Regardless, no matter what our age, our teeth are always in either a state of de-mineralization or remineralization. And cavities occur

when bacteria feed on sugars in your mouth, creating acids that erode your teeth by dissolving your tooth mineral, that's demineralization. And then remineralization, that's what fills in our small cavities and involves the construction of crystals from minerals. Wow, crystals that actually do something. I got to notify all the listeners who are furious about our skeptical Sunday on crystal healing. They'll be happy to hear that. Yeah, they'll be happy. These crystals are actually legit. And they stack together like Legos and they just make our teeth strong. So this happens naturally. just in regular mineralization, and it results in inorganic mineral substance called hydroxy appetite. And hydroxy appetite, it creates these super physiologically strong bonds that wouldn't

otherwise naturally occur in nature. So even though fluoride and hydroxyapitite have different chemical bonds, they're producing similar results. And all of this from just that little bit of fluoride that's in our drinking water. Yeah, incredible, right? I mean, about 80% of the fluoride consumed is absorbed in our gastrointestinal tract. And then about half of that is stored in our bones and teeth. Children, they store more like 80% because they're still developing. And then the rest of it, it just shows up in like our plasma and saliva and urine. It's everywhere.

There's over 214 million Americans that live in communities which supply florid. water. So it's like 75% of the population. Oh, it's not. So not everybody is getting fluoride in their water, even in the United States. No, no, because it's not mandated. So it's just most people are voting for it. But the U.S. Public Health Service, they have fluoride recommendations for different variables, like places without fluoridated water, they recommend should use some kind of fluoride supplement. and places people are expected to drink more water like warmer climates have less added to their water. In 1986, the EPA established the maximum allowance, which is four milligrams per liter in public water supply, to prevent overexposure while still preventing these cavities. But why are we just adding this one mineral?

It sort of seems reasonable to me for people to be skeptical here. Sure. I mean, I get that. but people are all over the place with what they don't like about fluoride. And I think a lot of it is misinformation and ignorance to what fluoride is and does. Remember the movie Dr. Strangelove? Yes, of course, it's a classic. Perhaps the most disturbing movie about the illusion of our control.

Did that influence how people feel about fluoride? Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived in dangerous common plot we have ever had to face? I mean, that's an extreme example. But in that movie, General Ripper claimed that not only that that water fluoridation was destroying our precious bodily fluids, which is a reference to this conspiracy that water fluoridation is a plot to weaken America and make it susceptible to a communist takeover. I have come across occasional communist conspiracies about fluoride.

that still exist, but they're pretty fringe. That movie was in black and white. So this is a longstanding conspiracy theory, man. This thing really has legs. And many conspiracies, of course, are indeed fringe. But I also, I got to admit, I understand why people get weirded out by having something added to their water supply. Sure.

I mean, right now there's a major lawsuit in California to get fluoride completely removed from the water. That's still pending. The case was brought. by a group who claim any level of fluoride is harmful. But at the same time, there's a major lawsuit in Buffalo, New York, where the city is being sued for damaging their children's dental health by not putting enough fluoride in the water.

So it's just this wide divergence about how safe people feel with having fluoride in drinking water. And it's confusing because if fluoride exceeds a certain threshold, it is actually poisonous. And that sounds really scary. But, you know, we control fluoridation levels. So they are at the healthiest amount to decrease tooth decay without making us sick. For obvious reasons, there are strict rules about our water supply. When did we start doing this? It's naturally in some food and water in trace amounts. And then in what, the 60s or whatever, we just started like dumping it into the water

supply? What am I missing? It wasn't quite that drastic. It was more of a slow ride. But But so fluoride was discovered in 1901, and it took decades to prove to the world that it's a scientific revolution in preventative care and minimizing tooth decay. But people still do get cavities and have dental issues, right? I mean, like, look, I've had, unfortunately, I've had plenty of holes in my teeth. And I grew up drinking fluoridated water in Michigan. Yeah. Of course, it's a public health worry. But, Jordan, your smile is beautiful. fall. Like, tooth decay used to be an out-of-control problem. I mean, since no one was keeping a great track of cavity rates, it's hard to say exactly. Some studies say that before fluoride was understood, tooth decay and cavities were 50 to 70 percent higher. Others say around 20 to 40 percent. Either way, it was a way more common thing for people to be missing a lot of teeth and often be,

toothless by old age. But yeah, thanks to fluoride, it's way more manageable. I do remember reading in history books about how people had dentures by age, I don't know, 33 or whatever it was. Like often, by the way, made out of the teeth of enslaved people, which is insanely horrifying. I think I'd probably rather be toothless, actually. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole different thing. Let's keep it light. Let's focus on the fluoride here. All right. All right. So I take Advil. I take vitamin C sometimes. But I don't want that stuff flowing through the water supply. So how did the world just go, all right, you know, this needs to go in everybody's water? Okay. First, let's just point out that fluoridation is such a minor part of water's journey. There is way more concern about getting things out of our water supply. How we got to fluoride as an additive. It's actually a pretty good detective story. So in 1901, Frederick McKay, he graduated from UPenn Dental School on the East Coast in Philly, and he headed to Colorado Springs to open up a practice.

And when he got there, his mind was blown because his new community was just filled with people who had gross, gnarly brown stains on their teeth. he actually wrote that it looked like chocolate candies were stuck on everyone's teeth. Oh, wow, that's gross, but also somehow delicious. Oh, God, no. I mean, he never saw anything like it in any academic books or new dental literature. And the residents there gave him two theories. They thought it was either from drinking cheap milk or eating too much pork. I don't know why.

Sounds plausible. Sounds sciencey. I mean, whenever it was, everyone had it, so they just normalized it, and they called it Colorado Brownstein. That's what I call my kids' diapers. What a coincidence. Gross. But this guy McKay, he spent the next several years researching the bizarre condition and presented all his findings at the Colorado Dental Association Convention. There was this researcher there at the convention who was pretty well known. and did not believe McKay.

So he went to Colorado Springs, and ended up writing, quote, one does not have to search for Colorado Brownstain, for it is continually forcing itself on the attention of the stranger by its persistent prominence. How poetic. My gosh.

This led to discovering, like, other areas of the country that were suffering from Colorado Brownstein. Of all the things to be known for, Colorado. No wonder they were so eager to get weed on the map. Aren't you the brown stain guys? No, no, no, no. We're the weed guys now. We are the weed guys now. Please. Anything else. This was before the weed thing, but by 1915. 100 years or so. Yeah. McKay, his research showed that the stained enamel was rooted in childhood and because the kids' teeth aren't calcified. So if you're an adult, it's not going to have.

happen to your teeth because our teeth are calcified. So people like McKay, who were new to town, they were not at risk. And the weird thing is that Colorado brownstained teeth were surprisingly and just inexplicably resistant to tooth decay. What? So you're telling me those ugly brownstained teeth weren't decaying. So they were ugly, but very resilient, which actually sounds like a good metaphor for the people of Colorado. No, I'm kidding. I'm from Detroit. I've got no room to talk whatsoever. Yep. I'm from Philly. I can't say anything. Yeah. McKay dug deeper and deeper into this theory that there was an ingredient in Colorado Springs water that was causing this. But it was just a hunch. Just a hunch, eh? Here we go. I see where this is going, I think.

Wait, that's what science is, right? Gas improved. So in 1923, his hunch restored healthy, unstained teeth in the children of Oakley, Idaho, where a new pipeline had been built for the community, children started to have these brown stains on their teeth. And then when McKay convinced them to abandon the new water source, within just a couple years, children were back to having healthy, unstained teeth. Okay.

So the hunt, he was getting. warmer, apparently. Yeah, exactly. And then the United States Public Health Service was paying attention, and they took McKay's research and sprinted to investigate this Colorado brown stain that was appearing in Bocite, Arkansas. And this is interesting because Bocite was owned by the aluminum company of America or Alcoa. And it's important because a toxic byproduct of aluminum manufacturing is fluoride. So Alcoa denied contaminating the water supply for years, but test after test found, of course, lots of fluoride in the water around their facility. So in 1931. Wow. Not until 1931. So they managed to stall for like a decade. That's insane.

Yeah. Yeah. Capitalism was strong men too. But McKay persevered. And he took water samples from all these towns where the brown stain was experienced, and his 30-year quest finally just confirmed that high levels of waterborne fluoride was in all the samples and was causing this staining of tooth enamel. So if the high levels of fluoride caused the Colorado brown stain, why am I and everyone else listening pretty much making damn sure that this fluoride's in my toothpaste and in my water? I mean, why do we want that? Well, one mystery, often ripples into others, right? So when the research took off and fluoride studies were finally being done by the NIH, the dental hygiene unit,

their first task starting in 1931 was to develop an accurate way to measure fluoride in drinking water. That took a couple years. And then when they had the right tools, a critical discovery found levels of up to one part per million in drinking water did not cause brown stain. I see. But it did prove that fluoride prevents cavities, or are we not there yet? Well, yeah. I mean, researchers understood too much fluoride caused the stains, but the teeth were resistant to decay. So they wondered whether adding fluoride to drinking water at the exact, right, safe, balanced amount would help fight tooth decay. But this hypothesis would need to be tested. So that was 1931, you know, early 30s.

But it wasn't until 1944 that the City Commission of Grand Rapids, Michigan, voted to add fluoride to its public water supply. In 1945, Grand Rapids became the first community in the world to fluoridate its drinking water. Wow. So it is a Michigan thing. Us, Michiganers, well, we do have beautiful smiles. And our water does taste like a swimming pool half the time. I don't know if that's related. Gross. When the National Institute of Dental Research was started in 1948, they took the reins of all this fluoride research and launched a 15-year research project to monitor the rate of tooth decay among Grand Rapids, almost 30,000 school children. So dentists, yeah, dentists went in and they examined the kids once a year to document the effects of fluoridation.

And after 11 years into the study, cavity rates and children had dropped over 60%. Considering the thousands of participants in the study, that amounts to a massive scientific breakthrough, does it not? I mean, those are great results. I know, absolutely. I mean, fluoride promised to revolutionize dental care making tooth decay for the first time in history a preventable disease. So, yeah, it was great. Water fluoridation flowed into other towns and cities and transformed dentistry into a prevention-oriented profession. Today, it continues to be dental science's main weapon in the battle against tooth decay. So if there's fluoride in the water, why is it also in my toothpaste and I get it at the dentist

in those foam trays, et cetera, et cetera. I feel like there's all kinds, it's just everywhere. Right. And it's true. I mean, according to the CDC, the amount of fluoride in toothpaste doesn't provide the level of protection needed to fight tooth decay alone. Together, fluoridated water and toothpaste work to provide maximum protection. I suppose that's a relief, but toothpaste does have warnings on the labels, especially for kids. I've noticed that, you know, that's, once you have kids, you're like, I better read this, right? And it's like, warning, don't let kids swallow it or something. So there must be some risk. It's like they don't want, if any more than a pea size bit is swallowed, call poison control. I'm like, this doesn't sound safe to me.

Warning, kids are stupid. Yeah, they try to eat it and then they get sick. I mean, there is a little bit of risk, but those warnings are found on anything that isn't meant for consumption. So toys have the same warning pretty much. But toothpaste isn't required to have a nutrition label listing, you know, calories and things because it's not food. So it has that warning label because of the active ingredient is this non-food.

food called fluoride. And if you over consume it, it can make you sick. Now, the warnings, they lean towards kids because they're most likely to snack on yummy toothpaste, right? So there's a maximum fluoride content that is mandated in our toothpaste. And the American Dental Association puts their seal of acceptance on any toothpaste with fluorides. So consumers can know it meets the ADA standards for safety. Is this toothbrush approved by the American Dental Association. We need to know that. We need to know.

Yes, it's important. Thanks, Kevin McAllister. To earn the seal from the ADA, the toothpaste has to contain fluoride, have no artificial sugar, and it's reevaluated every three years to maintain the approval. I don't know about toothbrushes,

so we'll look that up. They don't change a lot, so I don't know. I don't think they have fluoride. in the bristles. But unfortunately, there's actually chemicals and synthetic ingredients allowed in toothpaste, but that's a separate concern. So also another side note is, you know, while we're talking about the packaging, I came across a conspiracy a bunch of times in my research that claims the different colors on the bottom of a tube of toothpaste means something about the chemicals inside. And I just want to be 100% clear for anyone that might believe that those colors mean something.

They are solely for the machines that seal the seams of the tubes. Yeah. And even if they did mean something, it's probably not, ha, we're putting poison in this. And nobody knows. That's what this little symbol means. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Right. The evil genius signature.

Right. One conspiracy I know to be true is that I, along with the fine products and services that support this show, are conspiring to give you a great deal on the prerotics and services that support the show, I definitely didn't think this one out. We'll be right back. I know y'all know about six minute networking for free over at six minute networking.com. I've done like probably over a thousand ads for that at this point. How about plugging the newsletter instead? Jordan Harbinger.com slash news every week.

Gabriel and I give you a quick tip from the show. Something you can read it under two minutes that is actionable will help you with your psychology, the way you make decisions, something very usable and practical every week, every Wednesday. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. And it's a great companion to the show. Now, back to Skepical Sunday. That's the funniest thing about conspiracies. This is always like this big, massive plot that involves tons of resources and connecting

things, and it's like, but part of the requirements is they have to put this one dumb thing in plain sight for everyone to see. It's just somehow necessary. So dumb. All right, but, okay, fluoride does have some negative effects at higher doses, right? It can make you six. Something besides the old brown stain is what I'm talking about. I don't, for me, I know how many drinks I can have.

I'd like to know how many brushes I can withstand or whatever. When does it get to a harmful level? Okay. So, yes, consuming large amounts of fluoride from dietary supplements or dental products can make you sick. And in extraordinarily rare cases, you could die. Oh, sounds serious. Okay. But is this like death by force feeding toothpaste or mouthwash?

How much? I guess that's a lot probably before you croak. Yeah, I don't mean to take it lightly, but it's just that rare. Like, you would have to be taking shots of mouthwash for days and eating toothpaste pies, you know, but fluoride in high doses is a poison. And as we know, with anything, the dose makes the poison. So if you ate a spoonful of that fluoride gel they use at the dentist, you would definitely barf. I can imagine. I never liked that stuff.

Nor that what is with the, they're like, it's bubble gum flavor. And then they put it in your mouth and it's like a thousand pieces of bubble gum at the same time flavor-wise. It's so gross. I kind of like it. I like going to the dentist. I can't stand it. I'd go like every other day if I could. You're like Gabriel.

My producer Gabriel for Feedback Friday, his favorite thing is getting his teeth cleaned at the dentist. Oh, it feels so good when you look your teeth afterwards. I will give you that. It does. I'm actually going right after this. which is a total coincidence and kind of the only one. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that.

In the moment, I'm like, oh, this is so boring. And also, like, you know, I, side note, my dental hygienist is the most interesting man in the world. And so he makes it quite fun. But if I don't have him, I'm like, oh, I hate this. I should just not have teeth. He listens to the show, so I have to say something nice to Charles, but I would anyways.

Shout out to Charles, the dental hygienist, the man. All right. So continuing right along. I don't know how many people are super, super friendly with their hygienists, but you should be. No, no, I love mine too. I love mine too. So what people are worried about, which goes beyond the staining of the teeth, is the major hazard of fluoridation, which is called dental fluorosis, which also known as Colorado Brownstein. So, yeah, it states the amount of fluoride that's added to drinking water is at a level that comes

with just such a low likelihood of fluorosis. And, yeah, it states, the amount of fluoride that's added to drinking water is at a level that's And severe fluorosis occurs in less than 1% of the entire world population. And its highest occurrence is in children, which makes sense because the theory is, like we said, they're probably going to eat more toothpaste than adults and drink more mouthwash. Okay. So it's dangerous, but can it do more harm than just stain our teeth? I think most people's concerns are bigger than that. Like, okay, you threw up, whatever.

I think people are not so much worried about that as more sense. severe stuff like cancer or whatever. I mean, severe fluorosis can lead to pitting and tooth enamel, which is just more damage to your teeth, but that's also extremely rare. You know, the levels of fluoride are closely monitored. In fact, for the first time in over 50 years, in 2015, the United States lowered its recommended levels of fluoride in drinking water because there's just so much on the shelves at the grocery stores and in our food.

And a lot of people freaked out about that because they were changing the fluoride levels, but it shouldn't alarm people. It should comfort people to know our fluoride levels are paid close attention to and adjusted. And it should make sense when looking at those shelves of products with fluoride that we don't need as much in our water. Yeah, I did not realize that.

That is reassuring, I suppose. Somebody didn't set it up in 1905 and be like, this is fine. Right. Right, right. And if you don't want fluoride in your toothpaste, you do have options. You know, there's Tom's, Armandhammer, there's Bites. They all have fluoride-free options and they're readily available. Bites? Never heard of that one? Yeah, they're getting more and more popular. It's all about the packaging. They're these little tablets you chew on and they foam in your mouth. And so they just come in a glass bottle. So it's eco-friendly packaging, no plastic tubes. But you can get those as well with. or without fluoride. We had those.

They were called knobs, which is a funny name. Yeah. Pop a knob in your mouth. It means something different overseas. So I get that it's in toothpaste and I get that it's in the water, but you say we're absorbing it all the time. What if, hypothetically, I rarely brush my teeth,

mostly forgo tap water. I wouldn't be the first dude to ignore dental hygiene and survive entirely on, I don't know, Mountain Dew, for example. Oh, God, that makes my teeth hurt. thinking about. Yeah, fuzzy teeth. Yeah, ooh, green fuzzy teeth. People, they associate fluoride with dental care and it's in the water, but we need to

understand it's found in our food. I mean, depending on the water source of Mountain Dew, there could be fluoride in there. And because it's a mineral, it can be present in our soil and water that we use for our crops. So it's thought that the food with the highest content seems to be brewed tea. I'm not sure why that is, but even if you only use distilled water for cooking and drinking, you'll still absorb fluoride from food. Distilled water doesn't have fluoride then? No, that's impossible.

The distillation process effectively removes fluoride and a bunch of other contaminants. So you can filter out the fluoride? I mean, you can distill it out, filtering it, like if you're thinking of a Britta or something, I don't think that's possible. I couldn't find any filter or cartridge that can successfully remove fluoride 100%. And those activated carbon filters, they're ineffective at removing fluoride. And any product you see that makes those claims should be verified. But if people have some extra money, you can install something to filter out fluoride at home.

We have a reverse osmosis filter. So maybe my teeth are actually going to fall out due to lack of fluoride. some point. You know, reverse osmosis water filtration, it is the best, but it can be pricey. The other option is steam distillation. And it's understandable that people want those things because

they're freaked out and they think something is being forced into their body. So if people are concerned, it's a good option. You can look up how much fluorides in your tap water, decide what you want to invest, and then filter it out.

But here's the thing. The money you're spending filtering out fluoride will be spent at the dentist filling cavities. Crap. Okay. But people have those to filter out more than fluoride. Like, we have it because of heavy metals and whatever else. I don't even know. They're just getting fluoride from toothpaste and seemed to be fine.

I mean, that's, well, that was kind of my plan. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Have you seen a rise in your own cavity rate since you. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Ask your dentist today.

I should. Maybe they're paying attention to that. I'm not. There was a study in 2018 that showed a surprising cause of cavities is reverse osmosis. Oh, great. That's great. It was just one study, but these researchers recognize that, of course, these filtration systems are used to remove chlorine and other contaminants and improve the taste and smell of water. So they just recommend adding the minerals back into your filtered water, which you can get mineral drops or there's some specific filter that I don't really quite understand. That'll put good fluoride back in. So if you filter out the bad stuff and you don't make up for the good fluoride somewhere in your lifestyle, you're likely to get more cabities.

So fluoridated water is just less painful. And by the way, a lot cheaper because my reverse osmosis filter thing was not cheap. I remember really, you know, gritting my teeth and cutting the check for that thing. Yeah, no pun intended there. For every dollar spent on water fluoridation, it saves the consumer about $38 in health care, according to the CDC. And without fluoridated water, your dentist bills will be a lot higher because you'll have more dental problems. And then, as we know, when your teeth have problems, that affects a lot of your organs. can affect your heart, your kidney. It just your overall health. Okay, so it saves us money on dental

bills, but isn't it extremely expensive for communities to fluoridate water? No. Adding fluoride to the water is one of the less expensive ways to prevent tooth decay. I don't have all the economics behind that. You don't have a price list. You could just open up an aluminum manufacturing plant somewhere upstream and you should, it's free then. We should get into the, fluoridation business. It's definitely cheaper than treating tooth decay, though. And in 2015, the Cochrane review, which is like the gold standard for high quality trusted science research, they released data from 20 observational studies that spanned from the 1950s to the 90s. And it showed water fluoridation reduces the risk of decay and fillings, as well as a premature loss of baby teeth by

significant amounts. And the authors concluded that water fluoridation is effective for reducing cavity rates in both primary and permanent teeth and children. I mean, there's just savings there, especially if you have kids. Yeah, and especially if you're the tooth fairy. Does it affect pregnancy or infants differently? I've always kind of worried about that stuff now that I've got kids myself. I think there needs to be more studies on that because I could only find one study involving pregnant women that found fluoride transfers from the woman to the fetus. And this study gave 800 mothers a milligram a day of fluoride during the last six months of pregnancy. Then they examined the children when they were three years old and just came up with

no significant difference in the children's cavity rates. So the Cochrane Review concluded that there's no evidence that shows fluoride supplementation in pregnant women. prevents dental cavities in their offspring or causes any harm. Yeah, I'm less worried about whether a newborn has bright white chomper's than I am about fluoride having some other effect on the baby. Yeah, of course. I mean, I get that. But there's several studies that show, even in communities with fluoridated water, fluoride in breast milk is very rarely detected. So it's just non-existent and it's hard to measure. So pregnant women don't seem to absorb it the same way.

So I think if you're worried about it with your baby, the thing to look at is actually just baby formula. The fluoride levels in infant formula, whether they're milk or soy-based, they'll vary depending on, of course, the water source you use to make the formula itself. I see. We keep mentioning kids, but does it work as a preventative for adults as well? I think earlier you said we kind of weren't sure about that? Yeah. And it's just, I mean, my personal opinion is, of course, it's. does, but we just don't have a conclusive scientific answer because of the lack of studies. There's some evidence that shows, you know, the addition of fluoride prevents cavities and adults. And from 2004 to 2006, an observational study was done of 4,000 Australian adults over the age of 15.

That showed a 10% lower rate of fillings, cavities, and decay in the adults who had the fluoridated public water. then Australia did another smaller study, and that showed even lower rates. So these findings point to fluoridated drinking water, preventing cavities in children and adults, but we just need more studies. Okay, so what about those bougie folks that only drink bottled water? Is there fluoride in there, too? Yeah, bottled drinking water rarely has fluoride added to them, but it can naturally be present depending on the water source. the thing is unless the label makes a claim about the product's fluoride content, there is no requirement to list the amount of fluoride and bottled water on the label. I see. I drank that Alcoa brand water from Boxite, Arkansas, or whatever it was.

So maybe there's some in there. But yeah, now's a great time to unveil my new brand of bottled drinking water. Colorado Brownstain, I'm open to ideas on what the label should look like, by the way. All right, so fluoride in our food and water is unavoidable. I know some folks think that fluoride is a medication, essentially, that's being forced on communities, right? That's the narrative and that it causes bone cancer. I think that's one thing that I heard recently. I've also seen protests on this and there are theories going around online. So what does the science actually say about this?

Yes, we can get sick. Yes, we can barf. But what about the serious stuff that people are actually worried about? Yeah, sure. I mean, first, let's be clear, the fluoride in our water and our dental products is not a medicine. A U.S. court decision ruled that fluoride is a nutrient, not a vitamin, and definitely not medication. Okay, but that's like a semantic argument. Like, oh, a court said it's technically a different thing. Well, okay, that other thing is still harmful. I don't know.

That's not totally convincing, if I'm honest. What's the difference between those terms nutrient instead of medicine or not a vitamin in medicine? Why does it matter? Yeah, I mean, nutrients, vitamins, and medication are distinct scientific categories, and that means that their roles are legally defined too. So nutrients come from foods, that's our carbs, our fats, our proteins. We get vitamins from our food, but the vitamins are things we don't make ourselves, and they play various roles like acting as antioxidants and supporting our immune function. So unlike nutrients and vitamins, medications are things that are designed to treat or prevent diseases,

and they are all regulated by health authorities, and there is zero evidence. Fluoride interacts with any vitamin or medication, but it's a nutrient and not a medication because it's a mineral. I see. I guess I've never had a pharmacist say like, hey, don't mix this medication with tap water, because, or toothpaste for that matter. Don't brush your teeth, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No brushing your teeth while you're on this. I need that medication. But I've heard people express concerns that fluoride increases the risk of cancer. That's the one that scares me. Right. And I've seen that too everywhere. And it's really strange because tons of research and studies show that fluoride does not increase the risk of cancer or other serious health problems,

for that matter. People also claim it contributes to diabetes and heart and kidney problems. But The National Cancer Institute, among several other institutions, endorse fluoride as safe and effective. Careful epidemiological studies have failed to support associations with either cancer or any of those other conditions. There's just zero evidence. What about bones? Does fluoride strengthen our bones, too? It seems like that would follow if it's strengthening our teeth. Yeah, it seems like it should affect our bones and nails, but makes sense.

But clinical trials, they've actually conflicting findings about fluoride doing enough to prevent bone fractures. So one study showed a significant reduction in fracture risk. Another study found no change in fracture rates or bone density at all. So it's unclear. We know our bones absorb it, but is it doing anything? I don't, it doesn't seem like it. Is this only a U.S. thing? I know it started in Michigan, but do other countries allow fluoridated water?

I'm assuming it's fluoridated in other developed nations. Maybe it's not. Yeah, well, I mean, again, it depends on the water supply, but many countries add fluoride to their water supply. The British government very recently announced a new expert review of fluoride to strengthen the legislation around fluoridated water. They want to get more of their water fluoridated. And the evidence that fluoride protects against cavities is just overwhelming and not up for debate. but for some reason in England and Wales, less than 10% of the population receives fluoridated water. That is interesting. So there is actually something to why Brits are notorious for rotten teeth. I really thought that was sort of an Austin Powers meme because he was from the 1960s. Wow, that's kind of funny.

Every stereotype's rooted somewhere, I guess. But unfortunately, the fluoridation proposals are really opposed there by people who see fluoride as an unjustified hazard. And the debate raises both scientific and ethical questions in every country. You know, there's different problems in countries that are in what's called the natural fluoride belt. And that extends from, you know, like Turkey through China, Japan, and the mid-east, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan. That's like the whole fluoride belt. The rates of fluorosis are high there. So what they're actually debating is defluidation. And that's okay for their location and their products and their treatments that are available. This doesn't discount fluoride. It makes a stronger case for it to be leveled, but people might hear a piece of that information and

think, you know, we should be taking it out. But it's just a regional thing. It's actually neighborhood by neighborhood, water source by water source that that we need to look at. Now, sink your teeth into the great deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around here and keeps my teeth filled with precious, precious, whatever goes into fill cavities. To learn more and get links to all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show

are in one clickable place. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. Sort of surprising that Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan, in Japan, China, and Turkey are the ones with supposedly great natural water. I mean, look, I've met many Iranians with amazing, nice smiles. I don't know much about Afghanistan or Iraq, but maybe it'll surprise me. Maybe the people's teeth are great.

But I've been to Japan in China, in Turkey. And I am, let's just say I'm not impressed with the teeth that I saw when I was there. But if there's too much fluoride. That's true. Could have been that brown stain. Yeah. That's true. Those delicious chocolate candy teeth.

Blah. So why the controversy? Are there actual experts who are against fluoride, or is this like quack science with fringe anti-science folks at the rim that are just loud squeakers? I mean, experts just objectively agree on the rationale for fluoride. There's several alternative dentists that don't recommend fluoride, but the oral health benefits, they're not debated. It's the implementation of fluoride that's questioned. And when experts ask questions and pose hypotheses, that information can get distorted by the time it gets to the public, like with the fluoride belt, but there just aren't enough studies being done to back up or

disprove anybody's like skepticism. I see. Which does nothing to convince people who are skeptical of what fluoride is and does. Right, but we do know what fluoride is. And its use is quite transparent. The CDC, they have a website that lists fluoride levels in tap water by county. So is there any truth to the anti-fluoride claims or is it all kind of conspiracy theories for the most part? I mean, like any conspiracy theory, I guess, those fluoride-related ones, they come from a kernel of truth because exposure to higher levels of fluoride over a long period of time can not only cause dental fluorosis, but lead to a condition called skeletal fluorosis. And that's when fluoride builds up in the bones and it gives you joint pain or weak bones.

But that is so rare that only five cases total ever have been reported in the United States. So it does occur in places with naturally high levels of fluoride, but again, it's still pretty rare even over there. And from this, people have wondered, if fluoride then is contributing to arthritis or osteoporosis or some other kind of of problems that they want to blame something on. There's nothing wrong with asking questions, especially, though, when it comes to what

we're putting in our bodies. I'm always kind of paying more attention to that now than I used to. I used to just, well, let's not go there. Yeah, we mature. But, I mean, of course, and we should be asking the questions, but we also need to be understanding the studies that back up those questions. So if it's a balance of fluoride intake that's best for our teeth, you know, it might be the same for other conditions, but many experts consider evidence of these claims to be weak and coming from flawed studies. But all of this,

you know, gray area confusion does lead to a bigger point about fluoride studies. Okay, which is? Well, pro-fluoride side, they can demonize those who question fluoride, and it makes it difficult to get funding for those kinds of hypotheses. You know, on the other hand, the anti-fluoride camp has convinced many communities to deny the benefits of water fluoridation to millions of children and adults. And then those people suffer higher cavity rates and dental bills. So community health programs, they need to be based on scientific evidence, not arguing. or feelings. Wow. Okay. So it seems like we should fund all kinds of fluoride studies. But once something hits the level of conspiracy theory, mountains of evidence, that's seldom enough to convince the other side once they've made up their minds on something. So you can't really reason your

way out of something that you've emotioned yourself into. We've heard that many times from people in the show about conspiracy thinking. Yeah, of course. We all need to practice more stoicism, or at least let people know the variables involved with fluoride, like it depends on our age, our sex, our location. That sounds like a chat room from the 90s. Remember that? ASL. I guess a geology and geography lesson should come with every tube of toothpaste.

Maybe that's what the little code is on the bottom where they clamp it. Right. I mean, it couldn't hurt, but it's not just a matter of understanding that fluoride is too high in some parts of the world. It's also understanding that our fluoride consumption, it's being observed and being corrected all the time. That Cochrane Review in 2015, they concluded that early scientific investigations on water fluoridation, which were mostly conducted before 1975, are now deeply flawed, which of course people are then they think fluoride's totally wrong. But it wasn't because it was flawed research or some kind of mind control. It's what we talked about earlier that no way in 1901 or the 20s or the 40s or even the 60s

could somebody have imagined the availability of fluoride we have today. The early studies just didn't account for the subsequent widespread use of all these fluoride-containing products. And I bet people saw that as, like you said, something's wrong with fluoride. the whole thing was one big mistake. Yeah, which wasn't the case. But when you talk about water, I mean, there's just something so personal about our water. And people take the sanctity of their water really seriously. And most people who do worry about the water fluoridation, they aren't conspiracy theorists.

They're just concerned because they think a harmful chemical is in the water supply. I guess conspiracies about minerals in the water supply. that just doesn't get as many clicks as ones about chemicals or mystery substances in the water supply. Mind control minerals sounds really dumb. Come on, man. I mean, yeah, come on. Adding anything to the water supply

sounds like some movie plot, but it's just not the case here. It's easy to spin, though, right? I mean, experts hesitate on publishing findings that might criticize fluoride, of course, because no matter what side you're right, on that's bad. There was a really controversial study, kind of the most famous one, that came out in 2019, the reputable medical journal JAMA Pediatrics. They published this study that suggested a link

between fluoride, pregnant women, and the IQ of their children. It was really scary, and it warned pregnant women, hey, like, just watch your fluoride consumption. How would you do that? I know. The author of that study Christine Till said, you know, quote, I think this message could be easily misconstrued as us saying don't drink fluoridated water. We're not saying that. We don't want to stir up controversy. Oh, come on, no. Right. Like, hey, watch your fluoride consumption. Oh, my God. Should I not be having this? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, you know, just be careful. Like, what does that mean? So, of course, let me guess. This did stir up controversy because that article sounds terrifying, especially if you're having a baby. Yeah, of course.

But it's, you know, you'd have to read the whole article to understand what they're saying. And, you know, like a lot of information, people, they're not reading the study and they just assume the worst from what twisted facts they hear. Yeah. So there's this noted antifluoride group called the Fluoride Action Network. And they posted links to over a dozen media reports of the study with misleading headlines. They issued their own press release two days after the study ran, claiming that To continue fluoridation in the name of dental health is a huge disservice to the children of this country. It was just such a hyperbolic reaction and really dangerous. Yeah, I understand those. Social media campaigns are not exactly known for their adherence to the facts in journalistic integrity. People generally, they listen to what they want to hear or the stuff that they already agree with in the first place. Of course, and that's just human nature. And we see that in the fluoride debate.

Like when environmental lawyer, anti-vaccine proponent, and presidential candidate Robert Kennedy Jr., tweeted a CNN story covering that JAMA study, someone tweeted back that, you know, fluorides this byproduct of aluminum and we've been conned for years to put it in our water. And we've all just been drinking poison. So we're back to the Dr. Strange Love conspiracy. So it's not just fiction. It's literally a comedy. But here we are. Yeah. Right. But RFK agreed with that response and it went viral and people trust who they feel is right, not the most reasonable explanation.

Like on Info Wars, the right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he devoted a segment to the study and just wrongly claimed that fluoride brain damages babies and lowers your IQ. And then immediately after, flugged water filters sold on his website. So my skepticism of the skepticism is pretty high. Do Alex Jones water filters filter out the fluoride and the chemicals in the water that are turning the fucking frogs gay? Two sound bites in a row, but I cannot help myself here.

Hold on, hang on. I don't like them putting chemicals in the water that turn the frigging frogs gay. I mean, how are skeptics supposed to gain confidence that fluoride is responsible for more good than bad? Oh, my gosh. What is wrong with gay frogs? But anyway. Nothing.

But, you know, chemically gay is different than just regular gay. I guess. That's another skeptical Sunday. It's tough because, you know, like we said, people are listening to what they want to hear in response to all this misinformation about the JAMA study. Public health groups like the UK's National Health Service and the CDC and the ADA, they all got together. They all put out statements about fluoridation of public water services. supplies as being the single most effective public health measure to help prevent tooth decay. But, I mean, there was a lot of damage done from the article already. Yeah, there's too much momentum.

Public opinion is really easily swayed towards negative things, I guess. Yeah. And as the tenor of the public debate over fluoride, you know, has slowed necessary research into this health program that affects millions of us, you know, it gets just so confusing. But, Experts agree that the hypothesis that fluoride is like a neurodevelopmental toxicant, sure, like let's give that some serious consideration, but let's not, you know, confuse that with support for banning fluoride. Researchers know they have to walk on eggshells around the topic of fluoride to the point that the editorial note of that JAMA study said, the decision to publish this article was not easy. I mean, research shouldn't be that crazy.

No, that is crazy. That's crazy and it makes sense that people are worried about this, in my opinion. But is there something there of concern or not? I mean, I'm not concerned, but definitely there's something to study, of course. As less and less fluorides required in our water supply, because more and more is on the shelves, there could come a time when it might make sense to stop adding it. But right now, there's a lot of inequity in that solution. Just find it interesting we're getting fluoride from food on the shelves, just because there's stuff from other areas that's imported or like we're using plaques or something and rinse and different kinds of toothpaste. It's just really kind of one of those neat things about the human ecosystem and food system that, yeah, we probably should be paying attention to it. But you mentioned there's currently inequity in the fluoride solution. What does that mean? How so? Yeah, I just mean that it's really subjective to where you live.

So a lot of people say removing fluoride would have negative dental. health effects in vulnerable communities. And what I mean by vulnerable is, like, there was a 2019 study that removed fluoride from Juneau, Alaska's water supply. And what happened was there was a staggering increase in cabbities in the children there that were under six. They say it cost an estimated $300 more per child a year for the dentist. And the study says that this is probably because And this makes sense to me that Juno Alaska's, their market shelves, they have a much more limited selection of foods and dental products than we do on the mainland. And it's probably expensive to get stuff from the mainland. So like some sort of weird rinse is not high in your list. Okay. So this is really the fluoride in the water is a city by city decision, correct? Yeah. I mean, like I said, it's water source by water source, really. You know, starting in 1901, McKay,

and his colleagues, they did really deliberate, diligent research. And, you know, fluoride's a medical discovery that should be marveled. It should be celebrated. And it is just objectively one of the great public health achievements of the 20th century. So, you know, fluoride health, it can be achieved through supporting more research, understanding what that research is, and just discussing fluoridation practices that are optimal for everyone's oral health. And researched, of course, so we have updated fluoride policies when it comes to what we and our children are ingesting. I just, yeah, I don't think we should rest on 100 plus year old laurels with this one

either. So water we waiting for. Let's flood people with the facts on fluoride. Womp, thanks, Jessica. Appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. And thanks, everyone, for listening and putting up with my soundbites and puns today. topic, suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com.

Show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Jessica on her substack between the lines. And we'll link to that in the show notes as we always do. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Bair,

and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and I'm sure as heck not a dentist. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Also, we might get a few things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday.

So if you think we really drop the ball on something, definitely let us know. We are usually pretty receptive to that. You all know how to reach me. Jordan atjharbinger.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful,

please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with Professor Scott Galloway, who's here to give you uncomfortable truths on life strategies for success and happiness.

Most of the people, young people I deal with, envision themselves in kind of the top economic class, or at least aspire to it. Two basic rules, get certified and get to a city. I know, of course, most people want to be in, the 1%. You know what? Actually, I take it back. I think now most people want to be in the point 1% they just think that's what the 1% is. 100%. 100%. The myth of balance is a myth. And the other big myth is this notion that you should follow your passion. And the notion that you should

follow your passion is dangerous because most passion sectors are over-invested. If you want to open a nightclub, go to work or vogue or play professional sports or music, just recognize. You better get a great deal of psychic income from those things because the monetary income relative to your effort will be dramatically lower than other asset classes. Your job as a young person is not to follow your passion. It's to find out what you're good at and then invest the time, the grit, and the energy to become great at it. The accoutrements that follow being great at something, status, respect your colleagues, money, access to better health care, the ability to take care of your parents and your kids, you will become passionate about whatever it is that lets you do those things.

Happiness is love, full stop. So the depth and number of relationships across work, family and friends is the best practice around happiness. Scott has a bunch of great advice, whether you're young or old and you want to live in rich and happy life, whether that means economics or not. And that's episode 204 with Scott Galloway, solving the algebra of happiness here on on the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast.

Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger Show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. recently they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think the benefits of laughter why sports fans get so invested and what makes people like you or not the through line is always the

same smart ideas you can actually use in real life something you should know has been featured in apple's shows we love and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting so if you want another show that scratches that i want to understand how people in the world really work itch search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.