The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1108: Sound Healing | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: January 26, 2025

Are sound healers hitting the right note, or just making noise? Maddox joins us to investigate frequencies, facts, and fallacies on this Skeptical Sunday! Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by Maddox, the blogger behind The Best Page in the Universe and bestselling author of The Alphabet Of Manliness, I Am Better Than Your Kids, and F*ck Whales: Also Families, Poetry, Folksy Wisdom and You! On This Week's Skeptical Sunday: Sound healing's purported benefits lack strong scientific evidence. While some studies show modest stress reduction benefits from sound meditation, claims about treating serious medical conditions are unfounded. Sound and vibration can actually cause physical harm. Research has documented damage to nerves, circulation, and other systems from certain frequencies and prolonged exposure. Many sound healing practitioners mix legitimate scientific concepts with pseudoscientific claims, often misquoting scientists like Einstein and making unsubstantiated statements about quantum physics and cellular vibrations. The lack of regulation in sound healing is concerning, particularly given potential risks to vulnerable populations like pregnant women and children. The FDA only provides general guidance on "complementary and alternative medicine." Sound healing can be beneficial when used appropriately as a relaxation tool. Research shows it may help reduce stress and anxiety when combined with meditation. Those interested can try sound meditation classes or sound baths, while maintaining realistic expectations about benefits and continuing any prescribed medical treatments. Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know! Connect with Maddox at The Best Page in the Universe and pick up one of his books! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1108 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, author and cultural critic Maddox. Just Maddox, no, last name, or anything. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people

and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, we do skeptical Sunday. We're a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about

and debunk common misconceptions about that topic. Topics such as sovereign citizens, e-commerce scams, diet supplements, the lottery, Reiki healing, GMOs, ban food, chem trails, energy drinks, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime and cults, and more. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start. or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Sound healing is one of those things that sounds too good to be true. Can listening to certain frequencies cure depression, anxiety, insomnia, and more? Is there a hidden, untapped, wellspring of potential just a tuning fork away? Or is this all new age mysticism enjoying a surge in popularity off the wave of skepticism about institutional medicine in a post-COVID world? Best-selling author Maddox joins me today.

You hit the list. Congratulations. joins me today to discuss sound healing and whether or not it's sound. Yeah, congrats on the book. I didn't realize you hit the list. Thank you, Jordan. Sure did. Number two, buddy. Nice.

Jordan, you ever notice how a good tune can lift your spirits? Yeah, I'd never really thought about how listening to Johnny Cash on a road trip would cure my chronic back pain that I don't have, though. Right. Well, that's where you might be wrong, at least according to sound healing practitioners. So what is a sound healing practitioner? Because it sounds like something you just tell people you are one day. Exactly.

Well, there are people who run sound bath sessions either. in person or at community centers and even some churches and hospitals sometimes. Okay, but what is it? Can I just turn on my radio and get healed with sound? Obviously, it's specific in some way. Possibly, or at least in theory, it could work the same way. A sound is a sound, right? Except sound healers usually use crystal bowls and tuning forks that they claim are tuned to very specific resonant frequencies in our bodies. And if that doesn't ring the BS alarm bells, most practitioners would probably say there's limited benefit without their guidance.

again is something only they think they can provide. And that, by the way, folks, is a classic hallmark of pseudoscience. It's like, I'm the only one who knows how to do this, or the people who have decided that this works are the ones that can do it. They think they can also provide health care because they found some sort of secret that regular science and medicine doesn't want you to know. I assume there's also a money component. Correct. As with most practices, spiritual, corporate, or otherwise, if someone's spending their time doing it, there's probably a bill associated with it. Although it's usually not a lot of money, so for example, a 45-minute session in Chicago could cost around $30, and to be fair, some practitioners do it on a donation basis.

So what's the deal? Do these vibrations, that they do anything, or is it another upsell at my local spa next to the cucumber water? Well, there is tons of evidence that I do love cucumber water based on a study where I liked it, but the sample size was just me. But as for the evidence for sound healing, it's mixed. At the most grounded end of the spectrum is the association, between sound and stress. As we all know, stress can exacerbate a number of serious illnesses and disorders from chronic fatigue and depression to heart disease, diabetes, and addiction. Right. Okay. So anything that could reduce stress could help at the very least alleviate some of the symptoms you might feel from stress and these ailments. One study, for example, measured the levels of

tension, anger, fatigue, anxiety, depression, and a number of other variables before and after Sound Bowl meditation in a group of participants. And the study found that the group experienced a reduction in physical pain and a strong reduction in intention, especially in age group of 40 to 59 years old. So this confirmed their hypothesis that sound meditation would increase the feelings of relaxation and decrease the feelings of stress. Look, easy enough, man, but couldn't anything that reduces stress help just as much? People say chocolate does it. They say sex does it.

I wouldn't know spending time at the beach. Even just reading a book with a cup of tea, it sounds like meditation with extra steps. Right. So on a basic level, sure, anything that helps reduce your stress. would benefit your overall well-being, but the reason sound healing might be extra beneficial is the communal aspect of doing it. While you can do it one-on-one, many sound healing practitioners do it in groups where you can socialize and communicate with like-minded people. So it's like taking a workout class, I guess. Exactly. And plus, saying you could read a book or go to the beach is one thing,

but making a deliberate effort to do that, for people who are landlocked in big cities, it might not always be an option. Sometimes taking the deliberate effort with the intent to relax can make a difference. So this is like me with my trainer. I need them to work out harder and to push me and to make sure I'm out lollygagging. But even on days when I'm just stretching, I kind of know damn well I'm never going to do that unless they make me do it. And I pay them for the privilege, even though I'm kind of good at willpower stuff, just not going to put that extra gear in my own workout. Right. And you might not be more relaxed after reading a few chapters of American Psycho if that's the way you're going to unwind.

Sure. That's a big assumption. But that's besides the point, I suppose. Maybe I shouldn't out myself here. I do find some creepy stuff like that, kind of relaxing some. Are you a fan of Huey Lewis in the news, by the way? Anyway, it sounds like there might be something to sound healing, even if it's something you can get from other things.

Well, when it comes to stress, sure. But where things start to take a departure from science is when sound healers start throwing around science-y-sounding jargon about quantum physics mixed with new-agey language about ancient wisdom and how sound healing integrates the five elements. Okay. So it's like the Avengers' Infinity Gauntlet, but for relaxation. Right, or the most common trope in video games in Eastern mythology about the elements representing forces of nature.

Even Greek and Roman mythology had aspects of this within their system of gods representing each basic biome from the air to the sea. After all, the word helium comes from the name Helios, which is the name ancient Greeks gave to the sun god. And it's where we first discovered helium on the sun of old places by observing the spectral absorption lines to determine which elements were present on the sun. Yeah, if that's crazy, I actually didn't know where we got helium. from, and I was shocked to find that there's plenty on the sun, and then we just kind of decided we could make it here on Earth. That's a whole interesting, nerdy rabbit hole I went down. I have noticed, actually, that a lot of pseudoscience isn't really content with just saying what it is. They very often mix in mysticism and junk science. They'll say something like, well, something,

something, quantum entanglement, something, something, chakras. I guess it adds legitimacy in their eyes, although, of course, when people are even the least bit skeptical, this, of course, backfires immediately. But then I kind of see this as screening in the right marks for people being dishonest about what they're providing. Because the more ridiculous claims people are willing to eat up, the more likely they are to buy more, I don't know, crystals, gems, sound healing CDs, if they still sell those MLM vitamins or whatever from that practitioner, just because it all goes in one ear and out the other, and they're like, I'm convinced, shut up and take my money. Not that all sound healers do this. I have seen some say, look, I make a calming sound

with this bowl and it relaxes you. And to be honest, I'm fine with that. Anyway, before I speak too soon, if it's not too late for that already, what do the elements have to do with sound healing? Is there any connection there at all? Nothing. Or at least they shouldn't. Like you implied earlier, the concept of the five elements isn't a scientific one. It dates back to Chinese medicine from 300 BC, where an imbalance of these elements in our bodies supposedly led to dysfunction and disease. Of course, many sound healing practitioners lean heavily on the, quote, wisdom of the ancients. Yeah, we've done episodes on Chinese medicine before as well, and it's worth noting that many of the same folks during the same time period who believed in the balance or imbalance of elements

or whatever. They also believed in bloodletting and burning witches and human sacrifice and things like that. So it's weird that we've kind of imported that and been like, this isn't ridiculous, but the other stuff clearly is because it results in the death, the immediate death or whatever, of the person who's undergoing the treatment. Right. And people forget that the ancient Egyptians thought that the brain was useless and pulled them out of people's skulls through their noses. Even Aristotle didn't know what the brain was for and thought it was a cooling unit for the heart. I remember learning about that in probably elementary school where they would find some hook thing and they're like, what's this for it?

It's like, oh, the Undertaker used that to go up your nose into your brain and scrape all that useless crap out and throw it away and mummified you or whatever. Although, as silly as the cooling unit for the heart thing might sound to us modern know-it-alls, imagining the brain as a cooling unit, not totally ridiculous, in my opinion. It looks like a complicated set of radiator pipes, and it's in our head where surely they'd maybe observed, I suppose, that we humans lose a lot of our heat via our heads. So if you come from the idea that the heart did all the thinking, I can see why they figured the brain was just dead weight in the afterlife.

You mentioned they rely a lot on ancient wisdom. Is there an appeal to ancients fallacy? I know there's an appeal to nature. It sort of sounds like the same thing. Well, it's a form of appeal to authority fallacy. When you start diving into sound healing websites, it's only a matter of time before they start quoting Einstein about something he supposedly said.

Most of these quotes are misattributed, like claiming he said that everything in life is vibration. People have done research to find that exact quote and haven't been able to attribute it to him. The closest thing he said to that may have been in a letter to Max Bourne in 1944, where he said something to the effect of everything was energy. But he was referring to the concept of his mass to energy equivalence formula, not the concept of vibing to the hum of gongs at the yoga studio in Rancho Cucamonga. I've had people on this show say things like, everything is energy, right? And I'm like, oh, stop right there. What are you talking about?

They're like, well, Einstein said that. And I think she was talking about the vibe you get from another person. I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's not what Einstein was talking about. He's talking about like photons or something, you know, something that you can measure. And anyway, is it ethical to misquote scientists and frame them in a way to support your spiritual beliefs? I'm going to go with no. Right. Well, if we're being generous, it's coming from a place of misunderstanding or naivete.

At worst, it could be a form of manipulation. So it's someplace probably in between. To what end, though? Is this a wild Hail Marriott implying that what you're selling is legit? Because Einstein maybe talked about the principle in a letter to Max Born in 1944 that you claim to be harnessing. Well, if I'm being cynical, like usual, money is emotive. So we touched on it a bit earlier. But from the session fees to the training fees to become a certified sound practitioner,

these fees could run into the thousands of dollars for various levels of training and instruments. Okay. And if we're not being cynical? Well, then it's probably just naivete. One website claims that, according to quantum physics, everything is energy and energy is vibration. Therefore, each cell in a human body has a unique vibration and frequency. While cells, like just about anything else in the universe, do have a resonant frequency,

not every cell necessarily has a unique frequency. Cells in the human body tend to come in clusters depending on where they're found and what their function is. So MIT researchers have developed an imaging technique to determine the digital. difference between red blood cells that are healthy versus ones with malaria. It's really cool technology, and since every cell has a host of chemical and biological activities taking place, it's possible to determine healthy from unhealthy cells by using some very sensitive imaging technique. But there's no reason to believe that two or more healthy blood cells found in the same region with a similar

function made of the same chemical composition would necessarily have a unique resonant frequency. After all, each individual blood cell in our bodies have to be similar enough. for our bodies and organs to recognize them, right? That makes sense. Look, we can't be so unique that our individual cells are unidentifiable. So if people want to lay down and listen to some gongs, more power to them. I've done it.

I kind of like it. It is relaxing. I guess it seems harmless, right? Well, not so fast there, Jordan. This stuff isn't without risk, and this is an area that many advocates gloss over. Sound can actually be damaging to our nerves and cells. All right, I was wondering about that because if sounds can be healing,

then theoretically it stands to reason. that sounds can be destructive as well. Right. Some people find cold play relaxing, for example. Others want to light themselves on fire when they hear the first few bars of clocks. Okay, understandable. And now that's going to be in my head for the rest of the day. Thank you very much.

With apologies. And obviously sound can be damaging to our ears and senses like prolonged exposures to leaf blowers or standing next to speakers at a dubstep concert without any protection can lead to permanent hearing damage. Though some might argue that it might be worth it to get your face melted off at a scrylix concert. The jury is still out on that one. I heard, by the way, do you remember Manuel Noriega, the sort of drug trafficking general from Panama that the U.S.? Anyway, when they went in to get him, I want to say you hold up in the Vatican embassy, and the Marines decided they weren't obviously

going to storm the Vatican embassy. That's a massive breach of international protocol. So what they did is they set up massive speakers, and they blasted heavy metal until he came out, and it took like four days, because, of course, how long can you not sleep to heavy metal? And, And the way they got that idea was they were strategizing about how to get him out. And I guess one of the commanders could hear the Marines blasting this really annoying-ass heavy metal music from across the barracks. And they were like, wait a minute. What if we just take that and put it right outside the Vatican and just blast that day and night? And so they did that.

It was just because some dude was listening to his own music. They came up with this plan and this idea and it actually worked. Man, I would never come out. That's a badass. Yeah. I'm also thinking, yo, you couldn't make earplugs out of a Kleenex or something? I mean, it must have been super loud. Oh, yeah.

At some point, he's like, all right, that's it. I'm done. I want to know the track he came out to. Me too. It's also like, I'd rather go to federal prison in Miami for the rest of my life than listen to another night of, I don't know, what is, like Metallica or whatever it was. Sounds like the average date I go on. Everyone hates metal so much.

That's so funny. But beyond hearing impairment, sound can cause all sorts of issues. in the body. One study I found pointed out that vibrations can cause structural damage and inflammation of nerves and forest workers with higher prevalence of renaud's phenomenon, which is a disorder that can cause reduced blood circulation to your fingers. Yikes. So is that because of all the chainsaws? Why are forest workers dealing with noise? I'm guessing just they're cutting down trees? Is that what's going on? Yeah, it's a combination of the noise and the vibration, which also causes damage to the circulatory system, nerves, joints, and bones. Yeah, exactly. So for example, a two

250 hertz vibration could induce oxidative stress and nerves leading to inflammation. And children and newborns are especially sensitive to sounds and vibrations. Some studies have even looked at the stress caused by baby carriers, such as a stroller, during transportation and its effect on a child's nervous system. While the research is limited, we know that in some adults, vibrations can lead to increase blood pressure, motion sickness, vomiting, and increased cranial pressure. That sounds like some of the side effects of listening to this very podcast. You know, the sweetest sound to me is money hitting my

bank account. So please support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at six minute networking.com. It's non-criny, it's down to earth, not cheesy. It's not going to make you look bad or feel bad or make you feel gross or shmarmie. Takes six minutes a day. Actually, it takes less than that, but five-minute networking was taken. Many of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course. So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six-minute networking.com.

Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. I remember when my wife was pregnant, well, both times, they were doing ultrasounds and our doctor slash midwife, I think she was both. She said that they wanted to do them fast and only when needed because the sound of an ultrasound in the womb is like standing next to a subway train except as a baby. So it's massively noisy and loud and maybe not good for you. And she's like, eh, it's not that bad, but it's also probably really annoying. And it's just kind of a funny thing to think of like, you're just blasting your unborn baby with sound waves. And you're like, oh, look, it's a girl. So you think it's the cutest thing. And she's like, holy smokes, this massively

loud noise, right? Am I barely developed ears? Maybe that could be a Manuel Noriega attempt at delivery inducing. That's right. Yeah, that's right. If you're not coming out, we're going to blast this ultrasound in there. Do these practitioners, do they take precautions, or are we kind of doomed to have a generation of kids with scrambled brains because their aunt came over with a sound bowl and didn't leave for three months? Right. Some would argue that we already do with the advent of TikTok, but yes, some do. Though the precautions are usually just a suggestion. Sound healing isn't a strictly regulated practice by the FDA. The closest thing is a guidance issued about complementary and alternative medicine. Back in 1992, Congress set up the Office of Alternative Medicine, which later became the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

But this organization isn't a regulatory one. It's primarily for research and tracking, though the FDA does acknowledge that conventional medicine already uses some kinds of, quote, energy and sound devices. For example, MRI machines with magnetic resonance imaging and ultrasound like you just mentioned is the literal use of sound energy. It's being employed in the service of medicine, and yet nobody thinks of these technologies as quackery. That's true. Yeah, if you couldn't see the ultrasound result for yourself, it would seem like quackery. But yeah, to be fair, though, if you're looking at an ultrasound screen, the photo quality on that thing is terrible. Enhanced ones that we paid for because we're suckers. They're just not that great.

And I'll stick to my iPhone 15x Pro Magnum or whatever this thing is called. Right, same, but Android over here, buddy. Oh, those take photos? Yeah, they updated the firmware. So anecdotal evidence aside, is there any other harm that can be caused by sound? Yes, around the 1950s, there were reports of a mysterious hum that started being reported in certain cities like Taos, New Mexico, Bristol, England, and Largs, Scotland. Residents claimed that they were hearing a low-frequency hum or throbbing sound that nobody could place the source of, and it was driving some residents crazy. Only about 2% of the population could hear the hum, which made it that much more frustrating to those who could, because they could.

they were afraid being dismissed as being crackpots and people who heard the hum experienced nausea, dizziness, headaches, and even nosebleeds. It was even the subject of an old episode of unsolved mysteries. Yeah, I randomly saw a documentary about this on YouTube. The kind of thing I would never press play on, by the way. And I watched it and there was a lot of interesting theories like, oh, it might be this bridge that gets wind going under it that's vibrating. Or one of the final theories that looked really interesting was oil pipelines that have high pressure petroleum, whatever, going through them and those vibrate at a certain frequency. And when you sort of place these on the map, they're around in Taurus, New Mexico. But I can't remember. I think they ran into a problem because

near Bristol there wasn't that or it wasn't the same thing. They just kind of never really got to the bottom of it. It seems like the most annoying thing, though, if you can hear that. I would move immediately. Right. And the most annoying thing about it, or I guess the most puzzling, is that researchers are still trying to figure it out. They think they may have pinpointed some of the origins. For example, in Indiana, it suspected that some of the noise might be coming from industrial equipment at a Chrysler plant. And another source was suspected to be a large building central heating unit in another city. Others suggest that residents from oil and gas pipelines, like you were just saying, or even bridges. But there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on where the sounds are coming from.

Some medical experts think that tinnitus might be the culprit, which is a disorder that can manifest itself in phantom sounds. Pardon the pun, but that sounds awful. I would feel bad for these people. Yes, it sounds awful, Jordan. And there are even some instances where sound may have been weaponized by the military or foreign agents. Yes, there was a podcast about this, and I think it was called something about Havana syndrome. Exactly. The Havana syndrome was first reported by U.S. Embassy officials in Cuba around 2016. There have been over 1,000 reports of people experiencing symptoms such as intense headaches, nausea, ear-piercing sounds, and like the Taos Humb, even nosebleeds. That would be super scary because you just think Putin in the... F-SB is frying your brain with something, like a microwave. So do we know the cause of that one?

Last I saw, they're not quite sure. Right. And like the Taosum, not really. For a time, it was speculated that the source may have been a covert sonic weapon deployed by the Russian military, or possibly a microwave device. But the most recent assessments from U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that it's, quote, very unlikely that foreign adversaries have deployed such a weapon in Cuba. So not much to go off of. And some folks even suggest that this might be psychosomero. or basically it's all in your head or imagination to be precise. That would be really frustrating. And you'd like to think that government workers, especially some of these CIA agents and

stuff like that, are not the type to imagine that they're having symptoms and all that. And to have everyone tell you that you're imagining a symptom when you're actually having it would also be infuriating and drive me somewhat crazy, literally. Yeah, it's actually U.S. official policy to gaslight people who are experiencing. That's right. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. It's like, if someone complains about this, we don't really want to pay for it. So just tell them that it's all in their head and laugh at them and they'll leave.

It's just really sad. This reminds me a little bit of the sound weapons they use against protesters or they mount them on ships. Have you seen this? These massive, it's kind of like a satellite dish-looking thing and they can aim it at another boat. And it's just this really super annoying sonic weapon that keeps you from getting close. Oh, yeah, it's insane. And sound is even used as a deterrent in civilian settings. Have you ever heard of the mosquito?

Yes, the bugs, zero. Stars, worst bug ever. It is a terrible bug, but this might be even worse. It's an audio device called the mosquito that some cities have deployed to combat teenagers from loitering. Ooh, brilliant. Now I think I've heard of this before, but that's incredible. Yes, a number of parks around the country started implementing youth repellent devices

that amid loud piercing sounds that only young people can hear. So humans are able to hear frequencies between 20 and 20,000 hertz. But over time, the cells in our ears start to die, and we become less sensitive to the high end of frequencies of sounds. So after about the age of 25, our sensitivity to the sound starts to drop off to around 14,400 hertz. In fact, the tone that only kids and younger people can hear is tuned at about 17,400. So if we play it right now, you can pause this episode and get a young person in the room to see if they can hear this frequency. Okay. I will tell you right now, I don't hear anything. It finally pays to be old. Yeah, it does. I'm sure curious if people can hear this.

If young people can hear this, older people can't. Even anecdotally, I'm curious if this works on this podcast. What about all the hype I've heard about ASMR? First of all, I'm not even sure what that stands for. Do you know? And does it have anything to do with sound healing? Yeah, so ASMR stands for autonomous sensory meridian response. Basically, there are sounds that cause us to feel a tingle when we hear them.

Anything from the sound of painting and carving wood to bubbles fizzing in a can of soda. Yeah, these are the type of videos of people clicking their nails on microphones and whispering things into your ear or dropping marbles down a track into a bunch of trucks. My kids like those, actually. Exactly. Most of these videos are used as a sleeping aid, and people who listen to them report feeling a sense of calm and relaxation, while others, like me, feel like our brains are being invaded. It makes my skin crawl. Yeah, so we have that in common.

I actually hate most of these. The marbles going into the trucks thing, fine, whatever. I'm just watching it. but the whole like whispering into the microphone and tapping things. It's the audio version of somebody using sandpaper on my nipples, really. I know some people love it, though. Some people pay for that. I know some people really like that sound.

Is there a reason why it works for some people and not other people? Well, there's no strong consensus, though there's a physiologist named Dr. Craig Richard, who published a paper that found that regions of the brain activated during ASMR are similar to the regions of brain that are activated when you receive kindness or reassurance from a friend or caretaker in the real world. I see. So it sounds like what you're saying is kindness from a loved one is like sandpaper on my nipples. Got it. Okay. Do people listen to this stuff? I guess they do because these videos are super popular. And some of them get banned off of YouTube because they think it's porn, which I feel bad for the girl who creates those because she is

pretty, but it's definitely not porn. You can see somebody at YouTube being like, this is making me feel kind of funny like Garth from Wayne's World. And they're just like, I'm going to say that this is obscene because I don't understand it. Yeah, it's definitely adjacent to, and I think that's why a lot of people like me and yourself, like, feel uncomfortable hearing this stuff. I don't know what to feel. But it is popular. It's so popular that it was showcased in a Super Bowl ad a few years ago. Back in 2005, Zoe Kravitz appeared in a Mickelope Ultra beer commercial doing 45 seconds of ASMR.

Wow. The Super Bowl is about as mainstream as you can get. So if they're doing ASMR during the Super Bowl, even back then, wow. Yeah, exactly. And people have gotten really goofy with it. While most ASMR involves finger-tapping, blowing air, or using brushes to make relaxing sounds, you can find ASMR for just about anything. In fact, some people have made parody ASMR videos, everything from a whispering squash,

which is literally a video of someone's face superimposed on a squash while he's whispering, to Yoda robs you outside of a club to fuel his ketamine addiction. Okay, that can't be real, but it's YouTube, so it probably is. Oh, it is, and it's not even the weirdest stuff out there. If you spend a few minutes going down the rabbit hole, you can find ASMR for just about anything, including Dr. Phil threatening your life while he stalks you outside your home. So someone made ASMR of that. It doesn't seem relaxing at all.

But again, I don't get ASMR in the least. Maybe I'm missing something. But the whole thing, it goes right over my head slash, again, I can't deal with it. It makes me itchy, like you said. Exactly. Not only is it real. The stuff is surprisingly very well produced. It's hard to explain, but they actually did a good job of making it sound.

sinister, but still soft enough that some sociopath might find it relaxing. What about these sounds or frequencies that I can listen to that supposedly they put my brain into a focused state or something along those lines? What are they called binaural beats? Are those related to sound healing? Can you tell me about that? Right. So there's been an explosion of frequency-based videos and playlists called binaural beats, which are sort of a sound illusion. Just like there are optical illusions that can be visually misleading, there are also oral illusions that can make us inadvertently perceive a different sound than the one we're actually hearing. So, for example, if you listen to two frequencies

that are below 1,000 hertz and less than 30 hertz apart, your brain will eventually synchronize the two tones and you'll perceive a third different tone in addition to the two tones that make it up. Okay, and what does that have to do with sound healing? Well, as with the overall benefit from sound healing, most studies have shown a reduction in anxiety and an increase in relaxation. For example, in 2011, a randomized control trial was conducted on 291 patients admitted for emergencies in Australia. After being exposed to binaural beats, they found that roughly 10 to 15% reduction in anxiety. But other research has found that the results are short-lived on anxiety and have diminishing returns over time. The most study frequencies tend to be around the 40-hertz range.

What's so special about 40 hertz? Well, listening to 40-hertz binaural beats for 15 to 20 minutes or so has been found to enhance working memory. Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, scientists tested participants by giving them a list of words to recall, and a significant increase was found for recalling the eighth word in a list of 15 words participants were asked to remember in the same order. But beyond 20 minutes, no change was observed to further exposure. It should be noted, though, that the overall improvement was tiny.

Yeah, it sounds kind of slight. That's interesting, not terribly useful if the benefit is only at that sort of... Good, I can remember the eighth word, kind of, but only for 20 minutes. I mean, I don't know, just not super used. Any idea how they landed on 40 hertz is the chosen frequency? It seems like one of those things you could test for years and not find the right one. Right, so this is actually pretty interesting. The research dates back to as far as 1988 when scientists found that two neurons oscillate synchronously

when they're stimulated in their receptive field. Ironically, they were researching visual reception and consciousness. Since then, there have been a number of interesting studies done, including a relatively recent one that looked at the effects of 40 and 100 hertz frequencies on cell growth. The tests were pretty robust and found that these frequencies did actually have an effect on cell growth. So while there's a lot of research to be done, the most interesting conclusion was that exposing cells to 100 hertz frequency didn't cause damage and in fact seemed to stimulate some cell growth. 40 hertz range showed particular promise on tissue growth and potential treatment of nervous tissue in various diseases.

Okay, but I can feel a butt coming because this is not used at all and it's been 30 years? Exactly. but there is a huge middle ground between the science and mysticism. If you look for 40 Hertz binaral beats on YouTube, you'll start to find audio tracks people have titled with some very dubious claims. Everything from videos that claim it's a miracle for depression and anxiety, and even some that suggest that the frequencies can combat fibromyalgia pain and Alzheimer's, and even Parkinson's disease.

It's beyond irresponsible and it gives people false hopes, and even worse, it may delay patients from seeking effective modern medical. intervention. That is awful. I'm all for the placebo effect, of course. I use it myself. But at some point, you're just lying to people and it could hurt them in the long run if they're not getting real treatment for the thing that they have a problem with. Exactly. It's awful. Some of the comments on these videos are telling people to seek out frequencies in the 528 hertz range to heal cancerous tumors. And what's worse is that sometimes sick and desperate people will actually listen to them. One comment on a YouTube video for a 40 hertz audio clip states,

I have a brain tumor and I hope this will help. To which someone replied and said, well, as far as the tumor you mentioned, you can try slash research, Rife frequencies and slash or 528 hertz. Rife can give you the specific frequency of the tumor healing exactly what you need it to. What does that even mean? Right. He's talking about the scientist in the, I think in the 1950s or 60s. His name is Rife.

And he researched using targeted sound healing frequencies to target specific cancer. cells in the body. And since then, there's all these conspiracy theories about how the pharmaceutical companies tried to suppress his research and destroyed his labs and this and that. But many scientists have looked at his work and haven't been able to replicate it. So the verdict is out at best. But the person in this comment section throws out a perfunctory disclaimer by saying, I'm not a doctor. I encourage you to use your discretion in research before trying, but then immediately follows this up by saying, however, 5.8 is a healing for DNA. Okay. And of course, the implication here, as with much of alternative medicine, is that the cure to some disease is within reach, but this knowledge is being suppressed by big pharma or some dark interest.

Yeah, I see the comment here. 741 hertz cleanses toxins. So whenever anybody says cleanses toxins and they're not talking about your kidneys, which actually cleanse toxins and they do a pretty damn good job of it, you should run, not walk away from that nonsense. You know it feels better than sandpaper on your nipples? Supporting the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting this show. It is your support of our sponsors that keeps us going. Keeps me flush with sound bowls from Etsy. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place,

Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. But why do this? To what end? That's what I always wonder. Aren't these big corporations? aren't they also run by people who are themselves presumably getting cancer and dying at the same

rates as the general population? So the logic of big pharma, big companies, whatever, is hiding this technology that all just falls apart pretty quickly under scrutiny. Exactly. So the implication here is that they're so evil and nefarious that they are killing themselves and their own family members to suppress these supposed cures. And it doesn't even begin to address the elephant in the room, which is if somebody discovered a sound frequency that could cure cancer,

You bet your ass it would make headlines, probably first and foremost from the Nobel Prize Committee. So it sounds like the research on sound healing spans the gamut of evidence-based science all the way to random mysticism. And how can people tell the difference? It would be great to have some rules of thumb to lean on here if we can find some. Right. Well, like you said earlier, as with most alternative medicine, one of the biggest red flags to look for is the word toxin. If some treatment claims to be relieving you of some ambiguous toxins in your body without defining exactly what they are, when they got there, or how they'll be removed, chances are good that you're listening to bullshit. For example, that YouTube comment that we referenced earlier where the person was ranting about the 528 hertz frequency being, quote, healing for DNA.

They also said that the 741 hertz frequency will cleanse your body of toxins, and they mention it also works for infections. Toxins and infections. Wow, what a frequency. I had a recent operation that got infected. I won't give too many details because I have before, and it's gross. But I could have used some 741 on my gonads back then for sure. Jeez. So what a frequency that is?

That's right. All you apparently have to do to get rid of these unnamed toxins in your body while simultaneously healing infections is listen to a YouTube video playing a certain frequency, and bam, you're healed. So which infections? All infections? Don't ask, Jordan. It's just infections, okay?

They're healed. Forget about it. smash that like button, leave two comments and call me in the morning. All joking aside, it does seem like a form of magical thinking, which can literally kill people in a medical context. Exactly. Magical thinking, for those who are unfamiliar with the term, is when you think unrelated events can be caused by external and unrelated causes.

An extension of this is thinking that supernatural forces or just your own beliefs can change realities in the physical world. And while there's a lot of research that shows that you can think about yourself and affect everything from your mood to your physical health, It doesn't go beyond that. You can't move objects with your mind, for example, and listening to sounds on YouTube can't magically cure your cancer. Are there any examples of people actually believing this stuff

and foregoing medical treatment in lieu of alternative medicine? That's what I'm really afraid of when it comes to this type of thing. I actually had a buddy who got cancer, and he's very much a, like, make your own sunscreen guy, and, you know, I don't eat this and only eat that and positive thinking. And he told all of us, I'm going to beat cancer naturally. and a bunch of our other friends who he trusted who'd had cancer called him and we're like, look, we know that you love granola and sound healing and meditation and all that,

but Steve Jobs died because he did the same thing and he was a billionaire and all the money in the world could. Don't screw around with this kind of cancer. I had the same thing. Almost died. Get chemo. So he finally listened to those people and he's still alive. But a lot of people don't have that in their life, right?

So I'm afraid of that when it comes to this type of thing. Right. Like you mentioned, tragically, one of the most famous examples is Steve Jobs, who refused to operate on his pancreatic cancer when it was first detected. He told Walter Isaacson in his biography that it was one of his big regrets. Jobs's cancer was discovered during a CT scan while they were looking for kidney stones. His former pancreatic cancer was one of the rare ones that were slow growing and had a good shot of being cured. And despite the urging of his doctors, friends, and family, he refused treatment until it was too late. Jobs opted to go the alternate medicine route, taking natural dietary supplements, juices, and he even tried acupuncture. When these treatments didn't work, he finally decided to try seeking experimental treatments by sequencing his entire genome so that scientists could try to develop a treatment specifically for his exact form of cancer. Jeez, I guess if you're a billionaire and you're about to die, you got nothing to lose.

Right, and what good is a billion dollars if you're dead? So, he went down this path and, tragically, the rest is history. By the time he decided to listen to doctors and his family members, it was too late. The cancer had spread and they were unable to stop it. Isaacson speculated that Jobs' contrarian approach to solving problems and a touch of magical thinking may have contributed to his bad decisions. What served him well in the business world ended up being part of his undoing. I swear to God if this is a plug for Android. No, no, no need, buddy.

Androids need no shilling, okay? Fine. The point is, it's easy to get blindness. to the decisions you've made that were wrong when you only focus on the decisions you've made that were right. You know, one thing I never understood about the Steve Jobs thing,

for Apple, right, him and the team, they invent the iPhone, and it's this innovation that changes everything. If you have a problem that's been solved by a bunch of other people, why are you trying to innovate when your life is on the line? You don't need to do that.

That's just ego, right? I'm going to do this in a way that nobody else has ever done. Do I care how I get rid of my can answer? Not really. As long as it works. So I'm going to go with what they say is probably going to especially when they're like, hey, lucky you, you have the kind we can just cut out and you take a few drugs and then we check on you in six months. Congratulations. You're like, no, no, no, no. I'm going to roll the dice repeatedly. That just never added up for me. I just never understood that.

Right. There's got to be some other type of fallacy where somebody is really competent and really good at doing one particular type of thing. Like, let's admit it, as much as I don't like Apple products, or the iPhone, I don't use one, he was a visionary. He was a luminary in his field. He was very good at design and understanding technology and the trends of technology. However, when you try to extrapolate that to other forms of intelligence, like for example, education and technical expertise, like the medical field, that's where you start to run into problems. Michael Jordan might be able to throw some of the best free throws in basketball or Kobe Bryant, but I wouldn't trust them to make medical decisions or any other decisions outside of their specific field. I forget what this is called.

there's an academic term for it and it's something like epistemological trespassing. Of course, an academic thought of this, and it's a complicated term. But it basically, it's what you said. It's when you have a double PhD and a law degree and you're the CEO of multinational corporation and then someone's like, hey, what should we do about immigration? You're like, I'm a genius and I can solve this problem. And it's like, you, sir, have no idea what you're talking about. You would be, you're a great lawyer, you're a great doctor, you're a great engineer, whatever it is.

why are you opining on this? And it's because you think you're a freaking genius in one area. So it just translates over to this other area because you've read some articles. And it just happens to not be true. But it's really hard to see that when you are in that position, I guess. Exactly. You start drinking your own Kool-Aid and you go down this rabbit hole where you think you know the answer to everything. And more often than not, you don't. You don't. So to wrap up, it sounds like there might be something to sound healing, but it's important not to overstate its effects and forego real legitimate medical treatment. Exactly. At its most credible, sound healing does seem to aid with relaxation and reduce stress in a lot of people. And if that's what you get from it, more power to you. We could all use a little less stress and a little bit more relaxation in our lives. But beyond that, I wouldn't turn to sound healing in lieu of evidence-based medicine just yet. Scientists aren't foregoing sound and energy healing because of a conspiracy. They're using it every day in modern medicine in the form of MRIs and ultrasound. So if there's a medical breakthrough that uses sound to treat cancer or other ailments, you can rest assured that it likely won't be a secret for long.

This pun is going to kill me, but that sounds good to me. Yep. You can't help yourself. No lies detected. Man, I do love a good sound bowl, though. You ever heard one of those things? They are relaxing. They are relaxing. You can stand in them and makes a pleasant humming noise. I was in Vietnam on one of those boats in Halong Bay, where you kind of like eat yourself into a coma and do sea kayaking. And every night they had a sound bath in the spa. And we would all lay on the floor. And at first I was like, this is the dumbest thing ever.

But I passed out every single time within a few minutes. Yes, I was really tired from being active all day and probably sleeping too little. But there's something about that bowl just blasting out. It's better than white noise. It really is. I just passed out immediately. So I don't have a sound bowl in my house, but it seems like that's as close to woo. I'm going to get is admitting that this is relaxing. Thank you so much, Maddox, for coming on and doing this.

I know you're in the middle of some serious fire. Thank you for putting yourself in mortal danger to do this episode of Skeptical Sunday. You got it. I would miss it for the world. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about how sanctions work and whether or not they're effective. At the base level, a sanction, which is a law or regulation, that is intended to disallow access to the U.S. financial or to U.S. goods or to services from U.S. citizens is a sanction. People want to hold dollars. They want access to the U.S. system. They want a list on the New York Stock Exchange, right? These are real elements of power in a global environment

where money, power, economic influence is a part of competition and warfare. I often said at the Treasury Department, our job strategically was to make it harder, costlier and riskier for America's enemies to raise and move money around the world. But that's the essence of this power. And it sits between the talking of diplomacy and the hard power of our military. And that's why people resort to it so often. But I do think there are going to be challenges fundamentally to U.S. predominance in this space. Challenges to the dollar, challenges to the payment systems, and challenges to the notion that this

is the safest, most secure place to hold your money, to invest in the most attractive place because of our capital markets, rule of law, et cetera. That's why I think some of these state actors have an interest in undermining the credibility of our institutions. Like it or not, the economic and financial domain is a domain of conflict and competition. Do you want to be legitimate and be able to operate in the global system? To learn how the U.S. wields its financial power against terrorists, rogue states, and global crime syndic. check out episode 863 on the Jordan Harbinger show with Juan Zarate. Thank you all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday.

Come to me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. Show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Maddox is at Real Maddox on threads and Instagram. Of course, we'll link to that in the show notes as well. this show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.

And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Also, we may get a few things wrong here and there, especially on skeptical Sunday. If you think we really drop the ball on something, let us know. We're usually pretty receptive to that. Y'all know how to reach me, Jordan atjurbinger.com. I expect to hear from many people who bought bowls off of Etsy and swear by them. That's fine. That's fine. I'm here for it. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

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