The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1129: Russ Swain | The Good Mormon Who Made Bad Money

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

From postage stamps to diamond-dusted $20s: Former counterfeiter Russ Swain takes us inside the addictive world of artistic forgery and its moral reckoning. What We Discuss with Russ Swain: Russ Swain's counterfeiting career began with painting a postage stamp for a job application. This minor forgery later evolved into currency counterfeiting when financial troubles hit, demonstrating how small ethical compromises can cascade into major criminal activity. Russ became physiologically addicted to the fear and risk of passing counterfeit bills. The constant state of alertness produced adrenaline rushes that became compelling enough to override moral concerns. Russ' operation showcased remarkable ingenuity: diamond dust for texture authenticity, printed textile fibers, and UV-inhibiting suntan lotion in the ink. This demonstrated how artistic talents can be repurposed for illicit endeavors. Despite financial gains, Russ paid heavily with his conscience, describing it as a "ghost" that constantly questioned his new identity. The ultimate price included divorce, church excommunication, and having to explain his crimes to his children. A full-circle moment with Russ' former high school principal shows how our talents can be redirected toward positive ends when we . We all have skills that can serve either harm or healing — the application remains our choice. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1129 And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. How can I think outside the box? And I thought, okay, remember that postage stamp? That was clever. And it was thinking outside the box. And I will say, being clever doesn't prevent you from doing things that are stupid. It enables you to do more grandiose forms of stupidity. Welcome to the show.

I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional former jihadi investigative journalist or Emmy-nominated comedian. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, and geopolitics, disinformation. in China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more.

That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, Russ Swain, he's a Mormon, a counterfeiter and an art forger. And yes, that sure sounds like a contradiction. And this is a story of his attempt to essentially walk that line. Russ's career began when he created a fake postage stamp in order to get a job, and it all snowballed from there, resulting in huge amounts of counterfeit U.S. currency. but he got away with it, sort of.

I love this conversation. We had a lot of fun with it. I think he's just a really subtly entertaining guest that you'll love as well. I think you'll know what I mean by subtly entertaining once we start this conversation here. So here we go with Russ Swain. So I read the book and there's so many funny things in there that you could theoretically never get away with now. And there's so many great stories in here. And I just want to say it must have been hard to write a book about a lot of the places where you made your biggest mistakes in life.

and I don't know if I could do that. I don't know if I want to be that honest with myself. Does that make sense? Makes total sense. And I was reluctant at first as well. It's a widely known fact that bad decisions make for pretty interesting stories. Yeah. There was a lot of conversation about this stuff with my best friend Mike who suggested

that we do this and I was reluctant. And it seems that our sins cast long shadows over our life sometimes. And my friend Mike says, but you can't beat yourself up about it. that. Without those mistakes that we make, our lives would be little more than a paper puppet show. He says, the name we give our mistakes is experience. And if you can accept that, forgive yourself and move on and learn from it, then maybe there's something cathartic about this. So that was the approach we took. And it was cathartic to just open up, give yourself a little bit of self-acceptance and say, you know what, we make mistakes and we move on from them. So on the plus side,

your mistakes are entertaining. And that's what we're going to talk about today. That's very nice of you. Great. Tell me how you went from essentially an art school grad to a forger, to a con man with a postage stamp. You essentially turned on almost a dime or a postage stamp, if you will, and that was the beginning of this whole thing. Yeah, that was my first attempt at counterfeiting. After art school, there was one potential job in Ogden, Utah. thought it was an advertising agency. They were looking for an art director. And they said, we don't want to see anything but a resume. And I thought, well, how am I going to stand out among the other applicants? And so the resume that I sent in, I said, if you're reading my resume,

it's a testament that I know how to think outside the box because I hand-painted the postage stamp in which it came in. And they quickly grabbed the envelope and they were rubbing their finger over examining it. My gosh, the postage stamp was hand-painted. That's pretty damn creative. And so that made my resume stand out. And that was pretty fun. I got the job. We want this criminal on our roster immediately. Yeah, we want this guy right now. He just saved 14 cents. So for people who are unclear about this, because at first I was like, wait, how do you draw a postage stamp? The answer is you're not supposed to do that. You go to the post office, you buy these books of stamps that stick on to things. And I know People over 40 are like, Jordan, are you really explaining this? Look, there's a lot of people who are under 30 listening to this show, and they probably have never seen a potion stamp that sticks onto things because they're all printed now, right?

Oh, that's right. Yeah. I mean, can't even tell you the last time I got a piece of mail where there was a stamp stuck on there that somebody had hand placed on there that wasn't barcode or some kind of thing rolled on there with machine. This was 40 years ago. So you lick the stamp, you stuck it to the envelope, hand wrote everything. It was a different world back then. And you decided to, let's say it's a little American flag with, I don't know, canon on it or whatever, the old stamps used to the first class mail, you basically just drew that so well that the post office went, yeah, that's a stamp and sent that thing along. The machines or whatever they were using, or maybe it was human eye back then, that's a stamp and delivered the letter. So that was the proof in the pudding that you were a good enough artist to get this thing done.

But stamps, it's hard to explain. It's a sticker, right? So it's got the edge at least is 3D. you could run your finger over it or look at it and see that it was drawn on there. Or did you draw that too? I drew that too. I used a very fine sable brush. It happened at that time that the postal service had stopped printing dead presidents on the postage stamps. And this particular stamp, I thought it was beautiful. It was these exotic butterflies. And I looked at him and I thought, wow, whoever designed that did a hell of a job. And I almost wanted to recreate it myself.

thought, well, why don't I? And on the serrated edge, I thought, if I use this fine sable brush and just put a hint of a shadow on one edge and a hint of a highlight on the other, and then just duplicate with precision, copying it line for line, stroke for stroke, using these tiny little sable brushes, it took several hours. But I pulled it off, and I thought, hopefully this will make an impression on whoever sees it, and apparently it did. So I got the job. I was really happy. So it's not really good ROI for time if you're just trying to save on postage, but it was great ROI for time if you were trying to get a job, which was what you were doing. Trying to get a job. Correct.

You think nowadays, if that happened, somebody would call the secret service or whatever. That would be the end of your job hunt, I think, because you'd go to jail. Back then, they probably just went, oh, this clever little scamp. He drew the stamp on there. That's a felony, but whatever, we're willing to overlook that. Right. Yeah, I'm glad they overlooked it. I don't know.

If you see a thousand mail pieces in a day, I think you just pass it on it. For sure. Yeah. For sure. I think it's more the confession letter inside the envelope that would have gotten you in trouble, I think. True that. Okay.

So you needed to stand out. You draw the stamp on there. And after that, did forging or counterfeiting things get easier? Or was it just kind of like, oh, that was a one-off? Now I work at this company. I have no intention of doing that again. Yeah. I wasn't really planning on doing that again until I thought, okay,

I want to open up my own studio. And that little graphic design studio actually was an out-of-the-shoe galloping success from the time that it opened. I got a couple of large clients, and they liked the fact that they could deal with me as a designer one-on-one, and they didn't have to go through a chain of people. And it was a business school that was one of my first big clients, and they had an office in Ogden. They also had another school in Provo. and the work that I was doing for brochures and that caught the attention of their New York office

who was the head of, I guess it was a national chain of these little colleges. I won't mention the name because I don't want to get anybody in trouble or especially myself. Especially yourself. I was going to say, especially yourself, yeah. No kidding. But he said, hey, we really like your approach to design and you're making our school look really great. And I thought terrific. And he says, we'd like to

have you design the brochure that we use nationwide. And I thought, this is going to be great because we had a little print shop as well. And I thought this is going to assure my success as a designer, as a printer. And we've got this one huge client that will feed us for a long time. Problem was it took all the money, all the credit that I had to open the studio, get the print shop going and typesetting equipment and things like that. I had to find an outside source to finance this. So I went to a loan shark. And I borrowed at a usurious rate of interest, $10,000, which back in those days.

What year was this? This was in 1984. Okay, I'm going to do an inflation calculation on that. 1984, $10,000. Yeah, that's $30,000 in today's money. That's an annual salary for somebody who's making, let's say, minimum wage. That's a lot of money. But I thought, okay, I only need this for 30 days.

And so that's fine. I'll pay it and I'll be fine because this will be great. It's a national company. They're going to pay the bills and so forth. And I put my heart and soul. I mean, this thing had extraordinary folds. It had foil stamping and had blind embossed. The logo looked sharp.

And this was before where he could fax things. Faxing was rudimentary. I mean, it was rough. So I would send him. line art and saying this is the kind of photograph, this is where we show students, and they said, great, great, it looks beautiful, love the composition, we love the layout, this is going to be great. What I didn't anticipate, because I was trying to think nationally, I thought everybody's

money spends the same. And so there was this really attractive black girl that was one of the students in the photo and muscular-toned Asian fellow who was also very attractive. These guys were model quality people that we used to set up for the photo shoot on this. The old guy in New York, he was a Jewish fellow, which surprised me because he said, I can't accept this. This was after it went to print. I said, why can't you?

I says, you okayed everything. And he said, because you put, pardon the expression, but back in those days, a Chinaman and N-word in my brochure. Jeez, that's terrible. I said, pardon me? And I started backpedaling like crazy. He says, no, he says, we try to keep our clientele a cut above those kind of people. And he says, and you just threw down the welcome man. I said, with all due respect, I mean, you being of the Jewish persuasion, and that ignited

something in him that he says, oh, so now you're calling me, he says, a Jew boy. And I said, I did not use that term. I said, I'm trying to be as delicate as I can here. And he said, you know what? This conversation is over, and I'm not paying for these brochures, and I will not accept them. I was flummoxed. I was flabbergasted, and I didn't know what to do.

And I thought, I don't think there's any begging anything that I can do to resurrect this. And how am I going to pay back this loan shark who was very menacing and frightening to me at a very usurious rate? And I thought, I may have just sunk my ship. Yeah. So I thought, how can I think outside the box? And I thought, okay, remember that postage stamp? That was clever.

And it was thinking outside the box. And I will say, being clever doesn't prevent you from doing things that are stupid. What it does is it enables you to do more grandiose forms of stupidity. Which is what I did in thinking, if I can recreate a, postage stamp? What is money other than paper and ink? And I know the bricks and mortar of printing. I know paper. I know design. And all of a sudden, this seemed like the most brilliant idea that I could have thought of to solve a problem. I will say it is a little surprising to hear how this man reacted because you're right. Jewish people, a lot of people are cringing right now.

I am also of Jewish descent, so I feel like I'm qualified to talk about this without offending half the planet. First of all, even in the civil rights era, Jewish people and people of color, African-Americans stood side by side during that movement largely. So it is a little bit more surprising. When you hear like old white dude, you think, okay, maybe there's some racism generational stuff. But when you hear old Jewish dude, it's, yeah, you have like a higher percentage of them being a little bit more tolerant, you would think. And also New York, Sure. The guy in New York City typically also even more liberal.

More so. I agree. It's surprising that he reacted that way. He sounds like just a piece of crap. This is not a good guy. Kind of a jerk. Yeah, he was. Kind of a jerk.

Yeah. So just a note for people who are wondering about that because your assumption that he was maybe more tolerant was reasonable, in my opinion. I would have made the same assumption in older Jewish guy. Yeah, he's going to love this, especially that he okayed everything, but I didn't see the Chinaman on the front. because you sent him written description or whatever of the brochure. Sheesh.

So this Lone Shark guy, how do you meet somebody like this in the first place? Because you don't seem like the type of guy. First of all, you're Mormon, correct? Correct. It doesn't seem like Mormons and Lone Sharks are hanging out in the same strip clubs. That's very true. And I am integrally a Mormon. It's combed into my being.

It's impossible for me to shed my Mormon skin. And so what I did in deciding then to print money to solve this problem, it was a performative contradiction. I know it was going against my faith, my personal beliefs, and my own inner core. But I also knew that, okay, I've got a family that I'm responsible for, and I need to draw on all of my resources to solve this problem. And so I thought, that's the way to do it. It was like my moral compass was finally lying somewhere in a magnet factory. I didn't know which way to turn at that point. Yeah. desperation. The loan chart, how did you even meet this guy? You don't walk around going, hey,

does anybody know anybody who will lend me a ridiculous amount of money at a ridiculous interest rate? How do you find somebody like, surely somebody pointed you his way, or did you grow up with this guy? Where did this guy come from? Yeah, one of my best friends in high school had started a small t-shirt printing company, and I was talking to him, and he said, you know what I did to get my t-shirt business started? He says, there's this guy named Tommy, and he's a rough guy. He's very menacing, and he'll charge you through the nose as an interest rate, and it'll scare you to death. But he's got the money, and he'll loan it to you if you can pass his test, and he says, and I can vouch for you. And I says, great. That's what I want to do. So anyway, it was a referral

kind of thing, and we got together. We met, and he says, okay, I'll loan you the money, and he did. Where did you meet him? I know you met him in a place that not a lot of Mormons may be hang out. Or do they? No, they don't. Yeah, that's part of the content. contradiction. He wanted to meet in Salt Lake City at a stripper bar near the airport. And I said, really, I'd never been inside a stripper bar. And I didn't know what to expect. And it wasn't quite as raucous as they are nowadays, probably, but they had a little bit of standards. But anyway, we met in a stripper bar where he chose to conduct business. That was his office. And at the time, I didn't understand that at all. He didn't really observe the strippers or pay any attention. He

would sip on a beer. I was drinking Coke because of my background. And he chose that place because that's where he could read people. He wanted to read you because you were distracted. And he was searching for signs of body language, for confidence, for whatever it was. I wish I could ask him. But anyway, that's where he chose to conduct business every time we met. That's an interesting idea, because if he's going to meetings where he has to decide if somebody's essentially credit worthy, he's not able to run a J.P. Morgan Chase background credit check on the people that are walking in. He only has a little bit of data, and people can mask that data if they're trying really hard. But if there's a bunch of naked women around, maybe it's harder to do that because you're operating with less bandwidth to mask whatever he's. happens to be looking for it. That's an interesting strategy. That was very well stated. It's a fascinating

strategy though, right? Because otherwise, where would you do that kind of thing? You'd have to do a lot more work to figure out if somebody was a credit risk than just observing them. So I guess also you didn't have to worry about running into guys from church at a script. Well, actually, who knows? You never really know. Who knows? Yeah, but nothing would be spoken. Right. Yeah, nobody would say anything. I didn't see you there. Nope. No, I was out. I was out of town on business. So he loans you this money. Does he just give you a stack of cash? How does it work?

He gave me a check, and I took it at the bank, but he expected cash when I paid back his loan. That's a little bit of money laundering then, probably. If he's paying you with a check and it's a business expense and you're paying him back in cash and that cash just vanishes. Okay. He had another angle that was working there for sure. He did indeed.

Yeah, wow. Okay, so the guy in New York, the racist guy, he doesn't pay you for the brochures. Now you've got a loan from a loan shark. What was the interest rate? Like 10%, something like that? Crazy? It was 10% per month.

Oh, my gosh. So that's 120% or something like that. Oh, my gosh. That's, and now you have no hope of getting paid back at this point. Yikes. And I was living pretty close to the bone since I just started my business a handful of months prior. So I panicked. suddenly this idea came to me that I know all about paper, I know about ink, I know about design,

I can print the money. Money is nothing more than paper and ink. And why can't I just do that myself? It was a Hail Mary kind of thing. Yeah. But you can't just buy the paper that money is on. Isn't that sort of special? No.

It's created by Crane's company, and they will only sell that paper. to the U.S. Treasury. Even the composition of the paper is different for the sake of durability. It's got silk fibers and things like that. And I thought, okay, I can't get my hands on any of that, but cranes will sell to printers for letterheads and things like that. They have a paper. It's called 100% rag. It has no wood pulp. It's just cotton fibers. And so it feels the same. It has the same tactile feel as currency, and it's a little bit more expensive. And it happened that I was doing a letterhead for an attorney, and he had requested this to be on 100% rag paper.

And I thought, perfect. I've got a couple of reams of that, and I'm going to use it to at least see if this works. And so my lovely wife and kids were going out of town for a camping trip with her parents. I was invited, of course, but I said, no, I've got too many deadlines. So I just put out the clothes sign, told everybody that we were all on vacation on a camping trip. And then I went to work to see if I couldn't just produce, at least give it a shot. So the paper was white. And I thought, but I can print the background color of money.

And I have a good eye for color so I can match it perfectly. And I went to work mixing the inks, and I printed a full bleed, solid background color of money. It worked. And so all of a sudden I got a little hope. I thought, well, I've got the paper now, except that as I looked at these bills, they've got these red and blue silk fibers. Right. Yeah, the real bills have those tiny little hairs, basically. Minuscule.

Yeah. Right. Hairs. And I thought, well, if I printed the background, couldn't I print those little hairs? And so I went into the dark room. We had a little black piece of carpet, and I pulled some fiber. out of it, put them on my graphic camera and I shrink it down to 25%, which is as small as it would go back in those days. It was before computers. And I photographed them. I shot a plate

and I thought, okay, if I print these red and then flip it upside down and print it the opposite way in blue, you know, let's see what happens. It worked beautifully. And I thought, okay, so now the fear was evaporating because I was getting caught up in the creativity. I will say this. The essence of creativity and crime are both based on uncertainty. And the farther you get away from uncertainty, the more you move into a realm of fear. And I'll get into that later because you're moving into the realm of risk, I guess is what I'm saying. When you made this work, you must have been pretty excited.

Because I know the feeling of getting something to work. You got this theory. No one else has ever done it. You didn't just look it up. You figured it out yourself. And then it works. You kind of get a little bit giddy. Did you have a feeling like that?

Oh my gosh. I'm going to do it. That is so perceptive of you because that forced out all of the fear. All of a sudden, I had something by the tail here, a masterpiece by the tail. As far as I was concerned, now the creative side of me just completely took over. It's like scratching a creative itch. Okay, let's see what we can do here. So now, how can I reproduce this?

I had this graphic camera, so I thought I'm going to use photographic technique as much as I can, except that looking at the fine engraviour of printed money, I thought, wow, they make this really hard because there's so much detail in this. And I realized every time I try to photograph this, I can hold a shadow dot in the highlight area only if I over expose it but I have to under expose it so I started making little masks to put over the face of Andrew Jackson so that I could overexpose this part under expose that part and little by little it's damn it works this looks perfect I've got the little fibers I've got the black ink the quality

of the printing is excellent and I thought damn but it doesn't feel the same what's missing I got the paper I got the currency new bills feel like very fine sandpaper. And it just happened that one of my clients was a jeweler. And she owned a jewelry store. And she offered free diamond ring cleaning. And it was just something that she mentioned to me one day when I was in there. I said, what is this stuff? And she says, oh, that's when I clean rings, it's got this vacuum attachment and a polisher and it pulls all of the residue off. And I sort through it. And I get little scraps of gold and diamonds and stuff. I use the gold to fix fissures in the rings and so forth. but the diamond dust, it's just ground up diamonds.

And I thought, for some reason, I just thought of that stuff. And I thought, it wouldn't dissolve if I mixed it in the ink because it's little minuscule dusts of diamond. And it's so fine, it probably wouldn't come up my press. So I asked her, I says, hey, what do you do with that stuff? She says, I throw it away. You want some? I says, yeah, I do.

Do you mind? And she says, yeah, take all you want. So anyway, I took this little bag of this diamond dust, took it back, put it in the ink, stirred it around. I thought, let's see what happens because it's so fine. It's like baby powder, but it wouldn't dissolve. And so it didn't affect the ink, the darkness, the color value of the ink. Yeah, it wouldn't absorb anything.

It would just be covered with the ink and that's it forever. Yeah, in any kind of creative endeavor, you always look for that one area that creates the magic. And that diamond dust was that little part that created magic. It came off that press. When it dried, I felt it. And I thought, bingo, that feels like new currency. I can't believe it. Yeah.

I can definitely see what you mean by the creativity taking over. That gives way to excitement, which pushes the fear out. Because now you're not shaking, thinking, oh, my gosh, what if the police find me? You're just thinking, wow, this looks like a real $20 bill. And it feels like a real $20 bill. I did it. I got a masterpiece by the tail. creatively exactly i was really excited the problem was now how am i going to launder it yeah because

i realized i have to sear off my conscience somehow but in searing off my conscience i thought but how do i mask my anxiety that's really hard if you've grown up the fair-haired Mormon boy your whole life and now all of a sudden you're not just a naughty child you're a a first-rate sinner. You're doing something across the line. This was not your first attempt at forgery. What's this about report cards that you had created for friends as something like a business back in the day? I want to hear about this because I think it's funny. Of course, you would never think about doing this as an adult, except for the fact that you ended up using your art skills for the dark side a little bit when

you were a teenager as well. Yeah, that's exactly right. My mom was 46 years old when I was born. So I was essentially being raised by someone of other kids' grandparents' era. Penmanship was very important back in those days. And so my mother, who was also a schoolteacher, had been really strict about teaching us really good penmanship. It happened that my penmanship matched the penmanship style of the previous generation. So being raised in Ogden, Utah, which is a ski town, We wanted to go skiing every chance we could.

And so that meant we had to slough school. So I could write these really well-crafted excuse notes that looked like it was legitimately from someone's parents because kids of this generation don't write with that kind of penmanship. And so I thought, this is easy. Please excuse my son Ralph's absence from school. He has a dentist appointment, a doctor appointment, a whatever. And it worked. And pretty soon, kids that I didn't even know were coming to me asking me for excuses. I need to sluff.

I need to go skiing. I need to do whatever. And it worked really well. The problem was we were skipping so much school that we were going to be grounded for life if we couldn't get our grades up. Also, nobody's teeth are that clean. Come on. Right. Been done it's four times this month.

That's exactly right. So now the grades are slipping and how are I going to fix that? And I thought, if I can forge these excuses, how hard would it be to forge a report card? A little bit of paper and ink again. So I started manufacturing for my wayward friends, report cards. And I'd say, hey, for a buck, I'll get you the excuse to get you in and out of class. But then I'm going to have to have five bucks. And that was a good chunk of change. I'm doing the inflation calculation on this right at. What year was this? Oh, this was in 1967, 68.

You said, five bucks for a report card? That's $47. Holy smokes. That would get you a ski pass in those days, but it was worth it. And the well-heeled students

in the class would come and say, okay, I need a report card. And I'd say, okay, but it's going to cost you a buck because we got to have your parent's signature on your real report card with a note that says,

I promise my son will do better. And it was a little bit of a business. It certainly gave me dating money on the weekend, and so I was happy and know really well, until one of the students ratted me out. And from that point on, my feet wore a virtual path to the principal's office, and I was in really some pretty serious trouble. Yeah, I cannot imagine. That must have been a really big deal, because not only are you forging the notes to get

people out of school, then you're forging the fake report cards, then you're forging the parent signatures on the real report cards to say they saw them. I mean, this is just a sort of definition of a slippery, slippery, slu. and you're making one problem, begets another problem, be gets another problem, and suddenly you're just in way over your head. It was only a matter of time until you got caught, for sure. That's true. But when you're that young, you don't have the ability to assess risk

the way that you do when life gives you more experience. So to me, it was just a lot of creative fun, I guess. Now grab your inkjet and print out some crispy $100 bills. It's time to support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators, forgers, counterfeiters, every single week, it is because of my network and I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at six minute networking.com. This is not a schmoozy, gross, awkward course. It is all about making you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer in a few minutes a day.

Very decidedly non-cringe, very down-to-earth and super easy. And many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six-minute networking.com. Now, back to Russ Swain. So growing up Mormon, all I really know about the Mormon church, well, I know a few things here and there, a lot of blonde people, a lot of getting married when you're like, I don't know, 20 and having a huge number of kids.

Huge number of kids. And the mission where I'll run into Mormon kids in the middle of places where, honestly, tourists should not generally be going. And they're standing on the street corner with a sign that says free English lessons in El Albanian or whatever, and I'm like, what are you doing here? Did you do one of those? Yeah, I did. I went to Brazil. Cool. They give you a crash course in the language and expect that you're going to pick it up more fluently as you go through and it was great. But when you

get there in a foreign country and you're just dropped off, I remember in the book I pointed out, it sounds like everybody's talking at once. And I felt like they sounded like a bunch of parrots whose crackers have been laced with crystal meth. It was like, I can't. understand anybody. Even Brazilians feel that way. I don't know, I'll have to check my inbox after this. It's going to be full of interesting notes from people of all various faiths and nationalities. So how long are the missions? Are they two years? Two years, yeah. Wow. And Mormons feel their faith very strongly. And growing up, it's like you go to church on Sunday. It feels like you don't get out until Tuesday. It's a big part of your life. And I had just diluted myself into

thinking, yeah, I'm just a regular, fair-haired Mormon boy, but there's something about the strictness of the religion that sometimes relates to people and they like conformity and they like to go by the rules. But I was always a little bit rebellious. So I pushed against it a little bit, but I was very committed for the two years that I was in Brazil. It must have been a real shock going from Ogden, Utah. I've never been there, but I can kind of imagine what a mid-sized city in Utah is like, to Sao Paulo, Brazil. Yeah, which at the time, I think, had seven million people. It's probably three times that size now.

But that's just, that's a place that when you see it from satellite pictures or from YouTube, you just go, this is pure cast. Ogden, Utah, it makes Ogden, Utah look like a rural farming village. It's just the size difference alone and the traffic and the air quality and the music. I can't imagine more night and day, Ogden, Utah, and South Paulo, Brazil. That is so perceptive of you. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. It was a huge cultural shock. And I thought it is so rigid the way that it's organized.

It's like being in the military. And you wonder if this impressive two years of if it's ever going to end. But I had a moment I was really wrestling. Am I going to do any good here? I pointed this out in the book. You're assigned a companion that you're with all the time. You feel like a Siamese twin practically. You never get space alone unless you go to the bathroom.

But we'd had a hard day of talking to people. We were walking home. It was late at night. And the light rain was falling. And I says, hey, let's duck into this little neighborhood bar, just get some hot chocolate or something just to keep us going. And when I was there, this young fellow, he was maybe early 20s, he had no shoes. He was wearing just a pair of shorts, no shirt. But he had a bucket of crabs.

And he wanted to sell these crabs to the owner of this little neighborhood bar. and he stuck a stick into the bucket, and one of the crabs grabbed a hold of it, and he's swinging it around, saying, look how fresh my crabs are. And, of course, he's speaking in Portuguese, and it dawned on me as he's saying. So I thought, I understand what he's saying. Little by little, the language barrier had been evaporating. And everybody in the bar, they were clapping at this little one-man impromptu circus show. and we were laughing and the owner came out, Shokan showing that a transaction had be made,

everybody was clapping. I thought, I can't have an experience like this in the United States. I'm looking at the cobblestone streets that are wet and shiny and the halo of the street lamps, and I thought, this is magical. And I've got to embrace everything that's different from my culture and throw myself into experiencing this culture. and it was extremely stimulating, and it made all the difference in the world to me.

And so I enjoyed every moment after that. I can imagine as an artist also just having a lot of new input is valuable. Yeah, that's very true. That is so true. And so now I was absorbing all of these experiences like a sponge because I wanted to. I don't know if it deepened my commitment to my faith. It deepened my commitment to life itself and certainly made me, more appreciative of other cultures, other races, because we're all the same fabric with different experiences. And it seems to me that we increase our intelligence if we can learn to look

at life, not just from our own narrow field of view, but from another culture's viewpoint. Then we get a broader perspective. Yeah, I, man, I could not agree more. I'm trying so hard not to go off on a travel tangent of my own because I have so many other things to talk to you about here. I love everything you're saying here. It makes complete sense and I couldn't recommend traveling any more than I already do. I think it does change your life when you stay somewhere for a long period of time. You're not there for a week. You're not at a hotel. You are walking around the market, looking at somebody selling crabs and learning the language and you really get all those cultural nuances. Two years in a place like that is a long enough time for you to really absorb a lot of nuance,

a lot of language and a lot of culture. You're someone who understands the difference between world travel and tourism. I can tell just by that attitude right there. Yes. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I've stayed in a lot of places for a year, 10 months, whatever, even several months. There's just a huge shift that happens after it's hard for me to pinpoint, but four, five, six weeks, two months, three months, it probably depends on the person and the place and everything like that. But there's a shift that happens where you just go, all right, I live here now. Not okay, when I get home, I got to remember to throw the blanket in the laundry and all that stuff goes away. You start thinking in the other language after however many months. Then your foot's on the gas in this different

kind of understanding. Okay, so you got all these bills. You made them, you're pretty happy with the product. You've been in your print shop while your family's been away camping or whatever, making the ink, the paper, right? But aren't the bills just spotless and unused? That's a little suspicious. And I wanted them to look like they'd been circulated. So I thought, I used to refer to, you know, I need some walking around money when you go out somewhere. So I thought, you know what, I'll just wad them up, shove them in my shoes, and walk around on them. And it's amazing how that gave them that well-worn look of circulation. That's funny.

Okay, so this is great. But like I said, I had to sear off my conscience, but I had never had any real experience, other than in high school with forging report cards, of being a bad guy. And I thought, how do I mask the anxiety? How am I going to launder this? So I had no idea, but I've got all this money that's spendable. I think it is. And I had to try it out.

But I was anxious. I was sweating. I went into a little drugstore. They had these little corner stores back in those days. And I thought, I'm going to give myself away just because I'm so anxious. And I looked around and I reached over and I picked up a box of tampons. Took him to the counter. The lady could see that I was a little bit unnerved.

She says, are you okay? I says, it's so embarrassing. buying something like this, especially in front of a lovely lady like yourself. I don't want you to think that I'm strange or wonder as a guy what I'm going to do with these. She says, no, it's for your mom or your girlfriend or something. I says, and she says, look, we'll put these in a little brown bag, so it'll be our secret and snickered a little bit. Like, here's this awshucks kind of guy. She handed me back my change. So the rest of the day, I just went around buying tampa. So you have 40 boxes of tampons in your office?

I've got 40 boxes of tampons and they took them home. And when my wife came home and she discovered them, she thought, what the hell is this? I said, remember that night you made me get up and go over to 7-Eleven in the middle of the night when you needed a box of those? I just didn't want that to happen again. She says, I'm sorry you were traumatized by it. Lifetime supply. As I mentioned, the essence of creativity and crime are based on the uncertainty.

And the more you get away from uncertainty, the more you get into the realm of risk. And that's frightening at some level, but at some other level, it becomes very bracing, even stimulating. And that's what I found out, the more that I got used to this. So after I bought a bunch of tampons, and it worked very well, it kind of emboldens you a little bit. Now you've got confidence that this is going to work. And so now you spread out and try different avenues. And I remember distinctly there was always this feeling that any second something could happen. It could be called out or whatever.

That little bit of fear, it's very stimulating, it's very bracing, and it pumps a lot of adrenaline, and it's exhausting. But by the time you go home, you'd fall into a deep sleep because you're so exhausted by it all, by the emotion of it. But then when you wake up in the morning, you realize your feet can't wait to get back and feel that again. Feel that stimulation. Feel that risk. Feel the adrenaline pumping through your veins. And I didn't realize it at the time, but I was slowly getting addicted to my own body chemistry of adrenaline, that rush. I needed that fix.

And I couldn't wait to get back to it. Biblically, there's a passage that said two things that God hates. One is a lying tongue. Another is feet that are quick to run to mischief. And I didn't realize, but I'm getting some foot trouble. And I'm living exactly what God doesn't want you to live. How ironic and coincidental that you are literally putting the money on your feet to make it look weathered.

And that Bible verse, yeah, no wonder that was fresh in your head. head, feet that are quick to run to mischief and or stepping on literal forged $20 bills. By the way, did they smell like feet? Were you spending foot smelling money? I'm sure they did. Money has a kind of a crappy smell anyway. Yeah, it does. I can just imagine her being like, what is that smell?

Why is this slightly wet? Where have you been keeping this money? It's kind of a funny visual. Man, this guy's so nervous. Even he's sweating through his pants pocket. The money's damp. Oh, my gosh. What about the serial numbers on the bills?

Because doesn't that take a different kind of machine to do 10,001, 10,000, 10,0003? That's very perceptive, yeah. And I did not have a numbering machine. Yeah, why would you? Yeah, I had no use for one. So what I had to do was I had to create serial numbers. I would blow a sample up on my graphic camera to 400 percent, and I would precisely draw them crisply these serial numbers, but I was printing them six up to a page.

because I wanted to control the quality. All I needed to solve this problem was 10 grand, and I was already printing a couple of $100,000 worth. So what I did was I just made sure that I had six different serial numbers, and that meant I could never print or I could never pass more than six bills in any one place. And so that seemed fair enough. I assume you didn't just pay the loan shark back with a stack of fake $20 bills with the same serial number on them either. So you had to buy the tampons, get the change back. Did the tampon thing do the trick? Did you just eventually collect the 10 grand that you needed in the time that you needed it? That wasn't moving fast enough. And I could see that my time deadline, I had 30 days to do

this. My lovely wife and the kids got home from their little outing up in the mountains. And she says, how's business? Fine. Everything's fine. I lied. And I said, in fact, things are so good. I says, you know what I want to do? I want to get away my own self. Maybe take the weekend. go, let's run up to Sun Valley, Idaho. Because I thought, okay, in Sun Valley, Idaho, come on, it's Idaho, a bunch of farming communities and people like that. If something quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. So I thought Idaho would be a safe bet because I don't want to spend a lot of this in Utah. Oh, yeah. Ogden, Utah, you might run out of tampon shops, right? Right. How many tampons can you buy an auger? Before people start giving you side eye. Yeah.

Oh, exactly. So I went up there because I thought, let's get out of this state. If anybody ever starts looking around, they'll look in Idaho. So we went up to Sun Valley. And my then-wife, she gets up early, goes to bed early by 10 o'clock. She wants to hit the sack. And I said, you know what? I want to run over to the Idaho State Fair because it just seemed like a good place to at least try it out.

And the hawkers, the gawkers, those guys that, hey, Hey, buddy, come on over here. You look like you're a sportsman. Let's see if you can throw a basketball. You know what? That'd be fun. Maybe I can win something, but all I got is a 20. Hey, that's fine, man. I can break change. And because he's taking in all these ones and fives and tens, so he's looking for a way to get rid of some of them. And so he welcomes taking a $20 bill. And I'd shoot the baskets and say, I guess I'm no good of shooting baskets. I'd love to stick around to try it again, but my girlfriend's waiting. Every guy can relate to that. You don't want to anger your girlfriend. But you walk to the next.

next one, hey man, you want to come over and throw some pitches at a jugs? It's amazing how quickly you can launder a lot of money for a dollar throw at a state fair. And I had to keep going back to the car to unload all of this currency, stash it under the seat of the car and so forth. And I was quickly amassing a good deal of money. So I thought, I want to do that again. So I put on a baseball cap and a jacket. And I went back through and nobody seemed to recognize me. They didn't recognize you? Or they just didn't care. Baseball cap and a jacket. Not an amazing disguise, right? No, it's not an amazing disguise. But hey, their job isn't to pay attention to anything. That's true. Collecting some money and getting some sucker to chuck a ball. So anyway, that worked better than anything. And so I bought a

gym bag and I just stuffed it full of the cash. And I realized, okay, when we go home, I've got my date with Tommy the Shark coming up and I pretty well got the money that I'm going to need. So what I did was I'd walk into a credit union and I said I'm the junior high school band teacher and we've had a big car wash fundraiser. We've got to buy new band uniforms and this is all the money from the car wash. Can I just get some hundreds for all of this? I don't want to deposit it just yet, but I just need some hundreds so we can buy our band uniforms. and everybody wanted to help out the junior high school band teacher. So I was lying through both sides of my mouth,

just trying to cover my tracks, and it was working very well. Isn't there a thing with UV, or was this not a thing back then? Real bills, they glow or real bills don't glow under the UV light, or is that only $100 bills, or is that only from 1995 on? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, and that was the case back in those days as well. Okay. And I was lucky that I had done enough homework to know a little bit of,

about that. So what I did was I mixed suntan lotion with a UV inhibitor into the oil-based ink. They're both oil-based and the suntan lotion did not affect the opacity of the ink, thank heaven. But I also, just to make sure I was covered, I did a full bleed cover of dead flat varnish on top of the bills after they were printed. And that cut out all of the, UV reflection. And so it was amazing because I was scared to death of getting caught. I didn't want to go to prison. I didn't want the humiliation of my wife and kids. So I was laser focused on trying to stay out of trouble at this point because I crossed that bridge. Yeah, people right now are probably thinking, how did people not notice this? But I did an episode with a brain scientist named David

Eagleman. He told me that people just don't study currency. They assume it's real. Nobody who gets handed money assumes that the bill is fake, that's why they have checks like drawn it with a marker, put it under the UV light. And if those checks come up, you're already assuming the bill is real because you've seen a hundred of those that week that are real. It would be so weird to find a fake one that you're expecting it to come up as real. So even if it glowed like a little bit, you'd just go, ah, whatever. As long as you're not looking at 10 bills, the same serial number with each vendor, and it's not completely obvious that it's fake in some other way, people just are not going to really notice this. I'm curious that what did it feel like being rich

overnight? Did it make you any happier? Did it alleviate your stress level or were you too stressed out about getting caught potentially? Yeah, the stress level was really intense. It made me realize I'm becoming someone completely different than I used to be. And I had to keep asking myself, do I like this new version of myself? Because I remember referring to it as the ghost that was always there taunting me, asking me, do you like this new version of yourself? Because you're becoming someone completely different. I used to be at least true-hearted, tried to do the right thing and so forth. And now, I realized I am completely different than the guy that my wife thought she was marrying, the guy that I thought I was. And I had to keep putting that

ghost in the closet, and that he was always there coming out of the shadows, taunting me, asking me, do you like this version of yourself? And the honest answer was not very much. It was a trade, but I felt like I was trading part of my soul, and I didn't like it. I do wonder, though, you're printing all these bills. Are there bad ones? Are there duds that come out? Or like, oh, that's smeared because something happened, or I touched that with my thumb and it wasn't dry yet. What do you do with those? I assume you've got to inspect. all these bills and make sure that they look good? Because that's how you get caught, is you have a thumbprint on one of your bills or something. They have to be perfect. And so I went through,

and with an eagle eye, everything that looked even remotely suspicious, because you're printing these off by the hundreds. And so it's okay. But then you're exactly right. What do you do with the bills that don't pass muster? And it happened that my in-laws, my wife's parents, had a wood-burning stove. And I thought, great, I'll just take him over there because I didn't want to go out in the woods, have somebody go through the ashes and say, this was a bunch of money or something.

A bank robbery. So I went over to my parents-in-law's home, shoved these all in their wood-burning stove, lit a match, made sure that the fire was going, and closed the little door. But I didn't understand because I'd never had a wood-burning stove. There's little flus and things that you have to open up to let the oxygen come in.

And so soon the fire basically went out and they just smoldered. At least you didn't burn the house down. That would have been worse. Yeah. But anyway, that was one of the things later on in the book that led to the demise of my little scheme is when my in-laws came home. And they thought, what's that smell? It's the middle of the summer. Who would be messing around with our wood-burning stove?

And they opened it up and thought, my God, there's money in here. Oh, no. Anyway, it was all charred beyond being usable, but they couldn't imagine what was going on. Yeah, there's no really good way to explain yourself out of that one. You'd have to come up with a real whopper. No, it's fake money that I wanted to get rid of for absolutely no suspicious reason whatsoever. And don't call the police. Yeah, there's just no good way.

So you eventually pay the loan shark back, right? Right. With the laundered. So how did that feel? That must have been at least a relief because now you're not going to get kneecapped by some gangster. Right. And I showed up at the little strip place that he always wanted to conduct his business.

I had under my arm a cigar box that I had procured solely because it just fit these rows of $100 bills. And his interest payment was in an envelope with his name on it. And I slid it across the table and he counted it out and he says, okay, that's the interest. And what's with the cigar box? You know I don't smoke. I says, I didn't think you would want me walking around with this much cash, and I opened it up, and he could see it was full of bills.

And so I put the lid down, and he just said to me, he says, you're all right, Swain. I could tell he gained a certain level of respect because he had heard through the grapevine that my big project had gone haywire, and he was wondering, how are you ever going to pay me back? and he thought, okay, is he just going to make interest payments for the rest of his life? Or how's this going to work? And anyway, I guess it gained a certain level of respect and confidence with him. And then you stopped printing the money and lived happily ever after. No, that's not why we're here.

How long did you print the money? Because you kept printing it after that, right? I kept printing it. And there's a side of me that's very empathetic. And the fellow that I bought the press from was a great guy. and he was a horrible businessman, but really decent guy, and he had some financial problems. He had sold me his press so he could get a job, but he wasn't making the money he was making when he had his own business, and he was in arrears on his home. He was afraid it was going to get

repossessed, and I said, hey, look, I said, I might have something that'll help you. It helped me out of a jam. I explained to him, his wife said, no, there's no way in hell we could do that, But I guess they went home and discussed it and slept on it because the next day he called me and says, thanks for inviting me and can you do it just so I can make enough money to pay off my house? And I says, yeah, let's do it. I said, let's just swear to each other. I don't know you. You don't know me.

You go your way. I'll go my way and we'll hope for a happy outcome. Instead of to some backwoodsy place like Idaho, he went to Las Vegas where people know money and it's very sacred to them. And they've seen all kinds of shady gangsters and mafia and criminals come through with fake bills and fake checks and fake everything. Yeah. Exactly. And he wasn't a gambler. He didn't go to the casinos.

He went to the little strip malls. He and his wife, and she would be on his heels. He'd grab a pack of gum. She'd grab some chapstick. And they'd each pay with a 20. And this caught the attention of a security guard at the mall. He said, see that couple? They've gone to every store making little purchases.

I'll bet they're kiting checks to cover gambling debts. What is kiting checks? Like just writing bad checks? Is that what that means? Writing bad checks to get the money and then you write a check for 50 bucks or whatever. So he was curious. And so he went into each one of the places and says, hey, that couple was in here. Did they write a check for their purchase?

No, they gave me cash. And so he went on down through and he thought, I recognize the behavior. It's abnormal behavior. This guy, he was kind of a simple guy and he thought worked so well last time. Let's just go do the same thing. And we went to the same place. And there's the security guard saying, there they are. What is going on?

And it caught his attention. So now the curiosity was just eating him alive. He thought, what are they doing? buying the same little items. And so he said, could I buy that bill from you? And as he went down, he's looking at him. And bingo, he found duplicating serial numbers. And so he called the Secret Service.

And they came down and they said, could you recognize? He says, hey, trust me, they'll be back again next weekend. They come down here every weekend. They do this, the same thing, the same place. I'll spot them. I'll let you know. And so the Secret Service just showed up the next weekend and grabbed him. Wow.

So at this point, they rat you out immediately because they're scared, understandably, and they'd knock on your door eventually, I assume. Yeah, and he tried not to rat me out. The Secret Service are so thorough. So anyway, they at least traced it back to me. I'm the guy who owns the print shop. And I was out of town. I was still up in Idaho spending more money because I love to go to Idaho.

And anyway, the Secret Service had interviewed my in-laws, and they said, you know what? This explains a lot because we found a bunch of burned-up bills in our wood-burning stove. At that point, I can't lie my way out of this. There isn't an alibi big enough. And so I had to just come clean. And I said, yeah, you've got the right guy. And the other fellow and his wife, I won't mention their names. They were accomplices, but I'm the guy that you'll want.

so I at least gave myself up. It's time to just give myself up and go peaceably. You too can do good deeds with your money by supporting the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do,

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It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Russ Swain. I assume that they went, yeah, where's the international organized crime syndicate that's helping you do this? Because it's pretty impressive that you printed all these bills. They're of this quality. They pass the UV test. They got the diamond dust in them.

It just doesn't seem like a thing you do in your garage or your print shop. Yeah, these weren't printed by your uncle in the basement. What was going on here? And the secret servicemen that was in charge, his name was Roger Rodeck, a really wonderful gentleman, also a Mormon, and I apologize to him for being such a failure in representing the faith that we both adhered to. But he was intrigued by it all. And he asked me a hundred questions, 50 of which he knew the answer to. and he pulled me aside, he says, I got to tell you. He says, under different circumstances, you and I would be very good friends.

He says, one thing I respect, you never lied to me. He says, I asked you so many questions. And I said, well, you know what? At this point, what would be the point in lying to you? I just, I'm guilty. And he says, but I respected that you didn't lie. And so, anyway, he kind of understood, okay, here's a guy. He's a creative guy.

his back was against the wall. He did something thinking way outside the box, and I understand it. And so we became actually very amicable together. Later, he came to my aid in a big way when I faced a federal judge. Can imagine it would be so tempting to whitewash your participation in something like this. But you're right. There's no alibi big enough. And the Secret Service is very thorough.

You mentioned they found thumbprints on the edges. of the bills that you tried to burn because they went through the ash in the garbage and things like that with tweezers, which must have been a really long day or week for that agent. Tedious for those guys. Gosh, can you imagine? And they said, I got a corner of a bill, and this bill was only printed on one side because you scrapped it, and he says it has your thumbprint on it. Oh, my God.

So incriminating. It was incriminating. And it was almost cathartic to be able to just confess and say, yeah, it's over, but you've got the guy and what you're going to do with me, God only knows. Do you know how much counterfeit U.S. currency is in circulation? Do you have any idea? I can imagine it's a lot. I would bet you're right. And I have no idea what those figures would be. But it does beg the question, doesn't it? I was just focused on trying to get rid of my fash. But I have no idea how widespread that is. You know what, I'll look it up right now. Okay, in the United States, the U.S. Department of Treasury estimates that 70 to 200 million in counterfeit bills are in circulation at any given time.

That is roughly one counterfeit bill for every 10,000 genuine bills. I don't know if that's more than I thought or less than I thought. I feel like that's less than I thought. 70 million? That doesn't seem like that much somehow, but I guess it is at the end of the day. Yeah, nationally, but that's still a lot of cash floating around that we probably pass it on our own sentence. This is international too, because remember, North Korea is making these. Iran was or is making these. So that's probably the bulk of it. But still, wow, that's crazy. Did you do any good deeds with the fake cash? You're a good person, right? So it wouldn't just be, oh, I'm playing carnival games and buying tampons. I mean, it would just be so tempting to do nice things with it. I feel like if you've got an unlimited money glitch, one of the most fun things you could do would be to help other people with it. That is so perceptive of you. And I, I

I remember one day I was walking around a little mall in Idaho, and there was a Hispanic lady, and she had her little three-year-old daughter with her while she was cleaning windows of these little shops. And I thought, that poor lady, she's out here, you know, busting her back, can't afford a babysitter. And so I remember at the time throwing one of the bills down at her feet and thinking that she'd see it, but she was so focused on making sure the streaks were out of the windows. And I said, pardon me, ma'am. I said, pardon me. I pointed to her and I said, you dropped that.

And she said, she looked at it. She says, no, noise meo. And I thought, come on. Take the hint. Go with it. I said, no, I'm sure it's yours. You stood on it. You must have dropped it.

So please pick it up. It's yours. And she was amazingly grateful that somehow manna from heaven had just fallen to bless her life a little bit, an extra 20 bucks. But you do. You look around for ways that you can help somebody, just a beggar on the street, anybody. hey, 20 bucks will make a big difference in your day. And there was a great deal of joy in that.

That's very perceptive. Tell me about the Mexican cab driver. This is a fun use of funds as well. Oh, yeah. It ended up that Tommy the Shark and I, after I paid him off, we stayed in touch. And I saw a different side of him that I'd seen, not just the gruff, menacing guy, but I saw the human side.

And he and I became relatively close. He called me one day, he says, Russ, I've got some health problems. And I don't know how serious it is, but I want to go get away. I want to go to Mazelan. You speak pretty good Spanish. Let you and I go to Mazelon together. And I said, sure, Tommy, I'd love to. I had to run it past my wife and make sure that she was.

I said, hey, I said, because I can speak Spanish pretty well, would you mind if I had this experience? And she says, hey, you've worked hard. She says, no, go ahead. This is before your arrest, by the way, for people who are like, wait a minute. This is before the arrest, and I thought, I could take a few of these bells and maybe unload them in Mexico. Sure, Tommy, let's go. And Tommy and I have different tastes. I like to explore the cultural nuances, and I didn't want to go to bars.

I still didn't drink. I didn't do any of that. So I feigned a headache. We went to a little bar and I says, hey, do you mind if I leave you here and let you enjoy yourself? But I says, I'm just going back to the hotel because what I wanted to do, I wanted to get out. I wanted to mingle with people, see how well I could work the Spanish. And it's those little encapsulated relationships that you remember where you strike up a friendship with someone. So I jumped in the first cab that I came to when it was a young guy.

His name was Marco. And he struck up a conversation, Marco, how you doing? How long you've been doing this? You're married? You got a family? Yeah, yeah, I'm married. I says, you got any kids? He says, I'm expecting one.

A little baron, a boy child. I says, good for you. I says, when's he do? He says, tonight, actually. I said, tonight? I said, what are you doing here? He says, she's at the hospital, but her parents are there. I says, Marco, I said, you know what?

I said, you're going to have an empty ring finger thinking the way you're thinking right now. This is the biggest moment of life so far, seeing your firstborn be born. I said, how much do you make? He says, I have to work. I can't afford to take a night off work. I says, you have to. How much do you make in a night? And he said, $30.

So he says, okay, look, here's your $30. You're covered. I thought, it's the least I can do to help a young guy out so he can be there to see his firstborn, be born, to be with his wife in that special moment. And he says, no, that's not going to cover it because he says, I have to make $200 in a night. And I thought, all right. So maybe some of these fake 20s, at least six of them would help because I just, my heart

went out to this guy. I says, okay, now call your boss, do whatever you got to do if you have to feign sickness or something, but drive me to the hospital. Drive me to where your wife is giving birth and pray to God you're not late. And he says, really? I says, yeah. So he says, this is nice. So he says, what are you going to do?

I says, I'll just get another cab. I'm fine. He says, look, you talked a lot of sense into me. Come up and meet my wife. And I thought, all right, now this is the kind of cultural experience you want. You would have done the same thing, Jordan. And I says, I would love to meet your wife. So we go up the stairs while she's in labor.

Hi, who's this stranger in the room? No, thank you. That's so funny. But as we were walking down the hall, her eyes lit up because she was in the bed. She could see us coming because the door was open. And she says, Marco, somehow I knew you would come. And her parents were there looking very grimly at him saying, it's a damn good thing you came.

And so he turned around and very silently mouthed. to me the word, Grazias. And I just nodded. And I said, so I went in, I shook hands with the in-laws, met the lovely wife. And I said, you know what? I'm just a friend of Marcos.

I wanted to make sure that he could juggle everything around and help him so that he'd be here on this special night. Anyway, it made a big difference. And so he says, look, let me walk my American friend to the door here. And so he walked down the hall. And he said, hey, he says, you made such a huge impression. I had Hispanic friends back in Utah. They couldn't say the name Russ very well, so they called me Rocks.

It was easy to say. Anyway, I had shared that with him, and he says, I like that. He says, I want you to know I'm going to nickname my little son, the Little Rock, after an American friend who helped me tonight to usher him into the world. And it was a big deal. It was fun. It was exactly the kind of flavor that I was looking for, and I never forgot it. And he probably doesn't either.

That must have been the best and most fun use of the most fun use of the most. money other than getting out of getting kneecapped by a gangster. All right. Wow. So, okay, Secret Service catches up to you, uh, you get arrested. The agent is impressed that you didn't lie to him, but that's not getting you out of trouble entirely. Surely there's fallout from the family, too. Like, your wife must have been, I don't even know if angry is quite going to cut it here. She must have just been shocked and horrified. Devastated. Because now there's a big breach of trust, who are you? Yeah. You told me business was going great. You told me everything was fine. Nothing is fine. Nothing in our life is fine right now. And I don't even know who you are.

And once the trust is gone, I could just see the love drain out of her eyes. I knew there was no fixing that. But she stayed with me to get me through all of the courts and everything. I mean, what else could we do? I hired a cheap attorney, and he wasn't great. He was anything but he didn't put his heart and soul into this. But strangely enough, Roger Rodak, the Secret Serviceman, was there at the courthouse that day that I had to go before the judge. And the prosecuting attorney did a very convincing job. He said, the quality of these bills are a testament to his criminal intent to defraud the government, to defraud the American people. He would have done this. He would have expanded on it. He was lucky he was caught, but he needs to be punished to the full

extent of the law. And as he's giving his argument of how much criminal intent there was, Roger Rodak, the Secret Service man raised his hand and he says, I object to this, Your Honor. And he said, you're objecting to the prosecution. He says, yes, I am. He says, but you're on our team. You're on the other side. He says, yes, he says, what he's saying is that this proves criminal intent. He says, I argue that it proves creative intent. There is a big difference.

And that's why I said the essence of creativity and criminality is it's all based on getting away from certainty. And so anyway, he said, it shows creative intent. And he says, I've spent at least 100 hours. interrogating, interviewing, questioning this gentleman. And the judge says, well, you're the one who drug him into my courtroom. And he said, yeah, he says, I've spent 20 years chasing bad guys. You get a sense of who's a good guy and who's just somebody who's lost his way. And he says, I say that this guy isn't a threat.

And he says, what if you gave him a biblical seven years probation? And the judge says, you know what? You know him better than I do. You know him better than the prosecutor. He says, that's fine with me. with me and he said seven years probation with the understanding that you have to pay back the government for all of the bills that you spent. And I said, okay, if that'll keep me out of jail, of course. And I said, but you're going to have to put me on a payment program because now things are upside

down again. And he says the secret service people are very adept at gathering up the bills. They know where to look. You have to buy them back from them as they gather up these bills. And I said, okay. So far, I haven't had to buy any of them back yet. So after 40 years, I doubt that there's any in existence. So that's kind of nice. I mean, surely they detected them, and they just destroyed them like they do with other counterfeit bills.

They documented it and destroyed it. And it didn't make it back to whatever probation officer's desk that you were dealing with. You got really stinking lucky. I did. But indeed, there must have been some kind of angel looking out for me, for which I'm grateful. But the worst punishment was that I assume the relationship with your wife deteriorated as a result. Correct. And then she divorced me, which was the right thing to do. What about your kids? How old were they? How do you explain to them what happened?

Yeah. At the time, they were like 12, 13, and it was really hard. So we tried to soften the blow as best we could. We didn't immediately separate. but they understood. And the nice thing, my ex-wife handled it so beautifully. She remained amicable. She remained respectful. We stayed in touch. And even after we were divorced, we still considered ourselves a family. We'd been divorced for some time, and she met a wonderful human being who, crazily enough later became my best friend. And it really turned out beautifully because he's taken such good care of her and insisted that I be back as an integral part of the family circle. He said the family circle just expanded, the circle of family and friends.

And they both are wonderful friends now. And I think it worked out exactly the way that the heavens intended it to be. He's a great best friend, a better companion to my former wife than I could have been. My kids and grandkids love him. and they know of my affection for him, and so they feel free to love him because there's not a competition that way, which is really a beautiful way to live your life. And so I'm grateful for that. And you suckered him into driving you to studio today, which is really nice. Right. And I'm going to suck him into buying me some lunch because I took my wallet.

Yeah, there's a joke in there somewhere about paying him with a $20 bill, but I'm not quite quick enough to come up with it. Man, it's such an interesting story, and you got to, So lucky, I just can't get over it. Although, I'm curious, you said years later, this cop walks in and maybe tests you. Tell us about this. I'm still trying to figure this one out. Yeah, that was crazy. I still had the Secret Service people after they released me.

I was still free to go back to my design studio, and I was working. And one day, a gentleman walked in. He introduced himself, and he said, I have followed your case so closely. And he said, the problem you had. He said, I understand that these bills were impeccable. And you had the wrong partner. You didn't have a partner. He says, I'm a cop from Vegas.

And that's where I found out and learned about this stuff. And he said, but sometimes our personalities are you work both sides of that fence. And he says, I think I could be a very good partner. If you'll do it again, show me how you did it. You've got the printing presses. You've got everything. Let's do it again. And I said, you know what, I went through the most stressful time of my entire life.

I never want to relive it. I want to forget it. And I'm going to show you the door. I didn't bite. I never knew if he was a plant or if he was real. I'll never know. But I'm glad that I wasn't tempted. Yeah.

Probably walked out and got into that Secret Service agent's car and went, I think you made the right decision. He told me to get lost. Yeah, maybe so. I hope that was the case. How long after the trial was this? Was it years later, months later? This was a couple of months later.

Okay. And I was back with my nose to the grindstone. And I was scrambling to try to salvage my business, my marriage, whatever I could do. What about the church? Did they find out about this? And what happens with the church when stuff like this happens? Yeah, their rules are you have to obey the laws of the land. And I wasn't obeying the tenants of the church.

And so they held their own court. and I was excommunicated, disenfranchised from the church. And so I stayed away and stayed out of it because I was an embarrassment to them, but then eventually I wanted to regain some church activity. And I'm more private about my church affiliation now than I ever was, probably for that reason. But anyway, they eventually, in time, let me rejoin the ranks. And so all as well.

That's interesting. So you were on probation from church too. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And they make sure that you've learned your lesson and that you're not going to go back because they can't have that be smirching their reputation. And rightfully so, I wouldn't want to. And like I say, I'm very private about my church involvement and so forth, much more than I ever was. But I'm grateful that I never did completely shed my Mormon skin. As we wrap here, I'm very curious. It sounds like your old principal gave you a chance to forge one last item. Yes, I'm so glad you asked that question. Years later, this was 25 years after I'd graduated from high school. A knock came to the door. I opened the door. It was my old high school principal. I was shocked. I said, Principal Snow. And he looked at me and he said, Rusty Swain. That was what they called me my friends back in the day.

I said, am I still in trouble? He says, Rusty, you have never in my book been out of trouble. He says, you see these few gray hairs that are remaining? You put the gray in them with all that mischief you got into back in high school. But I brought you some good news, Rusty. I says, what is that? He says, I brought you an opportunity to atone for all that mischief. I said, please come in, have a seat.

tell me how I can do that. And together, we concocted a little scheme that he needed a counterfeiter for. He had been, before he was principal, he was the coach at the New Ogden High School, very classy, high school in Ogden, Utah. The first million dollar high school ever built on this side of the Mississippi River. And it was elegant in its art deco architecture. He was in college state champion quarterback for the football team. And he was offered this job to be the head coach at the New Ogden High School. And he instigated a rivalry between Ogden High School and another high school. It was called Weber High.

And as a trophy, he had found this earthen jug, had a sign painter doll it up and create the artistry on it that said the little brown jug champion. And that was the trophy that was passed each year to the winner. And he said, after I retired, because there were fights breaking out in school, we canceled that competition. And I always wondered, but what happened to my trophy? And so nobody seemed to know where it went. And so I was asking former students, former teachers, anybody know where that trophy went. And anyway, finally a janitor came to him and said, I think it's in, a box in the basement and a storage room of the Weaver County Library. So he asked for permission to go through all these boxes.

It was like looking for the Holy Grail. One day he found it. And tears welled up in his eyes. He was emotional about it. This was a part of my history. I want this to be permanently displayed in the Ogden High School trophy case. And no sooner had it been displayed there, given a place of honor. But the coach at Weaver High said, I think that belongs in our trophy case,

because we won more games than you guys did. He was really offended at that because it was his creation. It was a tribute to his legacy. And so he said, Rusty, he says, I got to give him something. So here's the trophy, and I want you to make one identical.

And I said, and I'm forgiven? He says, you're forgiven. And it was, we had the most fun, and we bonded over this fun little mischievous prank to pull on the coach at Weber High School. And he gave it to him and said, hey, give it a place of respect. Whereas the real trophy, he built a special case for it. And it's in the teacher's lounge where only the administration can enjoy it and see it.

But it's in its proper place at Ogden High School. And I promised I wouldn't tell that, divulged that to anybody as long as he walked the earth. And he passed away a few years later. And so now I can talk about it. That's really funny. So somewhere, if Weaver High School is even still called Weaver High School and is still around, There's a jug there that everybody thinks, oh, it's from us, winning all those championships against Ogden, and it's just something you made in your garage.

Yep. That's exactly right. People have since asked me, were you attempted to make two and keep the real one? And I said, no, I wasn't going to do that. That's not valuable enough to do. And also, this was you finally getting into the good graces of that principle who had one out for you for decades. That's so funny.

And becoming very good trends through it all. Yeah, it was great. Russ Swain, thank you so much. You're a great storyteller. One of the things I love about this is when you talk to a mafia guy or a criminal, right, they have this little edge to them that they got that little kind of criminal. You just don't have that. You've got the Mormon guy thing going on. I've made a $20 bill and I painted a potion stamp and then the Secret Service arrested me and they found it's just the way you tell the stories is so funny because it's so unassuming. And I think that might be one of the reasons you got away with it for so long is everybody. went, he is not a counterfeiter. Next. That's very kind of you. I appreciate that. And I have to say, you're a very imaginative question asker. You're very good at the art of interrogation, I guess you would say. Yeah, thanks. I guess in another life, I would have been a secret service agent arresting you. No doubt. No doubt. Thank you so much. It's been a joy. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with a skilled art forger who made millions selling his fakes. I was a stormed.

house of knowledge of how to create an illusion, presented to a experienced expert, and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine. We flooded the market with my paintings, and eventually the FBI will lead to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me. but they never actually got you. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation? I guess that's the greatest story of all.

To hear details of how Ken Perreni evaded the scrutiny of everyone from the mafia to the FBI and lived to tell the tale, check out episode 282 of the Jordan Harbinger show. Some of the way he solved problems with his counterfeit currency, it really reminded me of episode 282 with Ken Perrenner. any. A lot of creative problem solving goes into counterfeiting and forging. Things like using old nails from flea market art in his forgeries so they'd look old to the naked eye and on x-ray machines, taking the varnish off of an old painting and putting it on the forgery, that kind of stuff. Really, these guys all have this in common. They have to solve these really unique problems. Also, Russ got

some early advice for his art career, namely, Steele with both hands. That's what he was told about art. And, you know, there's a book, Steele like an artist. I think he might have taken that advice, smidge too literally, but, uh, you know, you be the judge. Man, though, the fallout from his deeds, the kids couldn't play at other people's homes. That would hurt a lot. Not as bad as prison, maybe not as bad as losing your wife, but it sure would sting. I think that's really, having to look your kids in the eye and tell them what you did and see their disappointment. That wouldn't really cut to the heart. All things, Russ Swain will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at

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