The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1167: Charlamagne Tha God | Get Honest or Die Lying

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

Get Honest or Die Lying author Charlamagne Tha God is here for a big conversation about how small talk destroys meaningful connection in modern society.Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1167What We Discuss with Charlamagne Tha God:Unhealed trauma drives destructive behavior. Charlamagne emphasizes that people project their pain onto others when they haven't done the internal work to heal themselves.Small talk is BS that delays meaningful connection. Instead of surface pleasantries, be intentional and get straight to what you actually want to discuss.Via ever-present smartphones, social media creates verbally abusive relationships. The constant negativity and opinion overload damages mental health, so curating or avoiding it protects peace.Success amplifies who you already are rather than changing you. If you have unhealed trauma and a wounded ego, money and fame will make those problems worse, not better.Finding worthiness eliminates imposter syndrome. When you realize you're in your position because you're meant to be there and walking in your purpose, self-doubt disappears.And much more...And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors:The Cybersecurity Tapes: thecybersecuritytapes.comUplift: Special offer: upliftdesk.com/jordanProgressive: Free online quote: progressive.comLand Rover Defender: landroverusa.comAirbnb: airbnb.com/hostAudible: Visit audible.com/jhs or text JHS to 500-500See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. When you go from the ambitious part, that's the first part, to the success part, that's when you really start to see what kind of demon ego can be, especially if you have a wounded ego, especially if you've got a lot of trauma that you haven't dealt with. Because success, money doesn't change you. It just amplifies whatever you already are. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger.

On the Jordan Harbinger show, would decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional mafia, gold smuggler, national security advisor, or legendary Hollywood actor, if you're new to the show

or you want to tell your friends about the show, and I always appreciate it when you do that, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Real quick, before we dive in, Gabriel, if you're listening, skip ahead at least one minute. I'm serious. Once again, don't listen to the next minute.

All right, so Gabriel Mizrahi, our Velvet Voiced co-host, unlike my voice right now. something's going on. He's heading off on a new adventure abroad. Don't worry, he's not leaving the show, but we are putting together a surprise video montage to send him off in style. Big thanks to Amanda for the idea. If Gabriel has ever made you laugh, think, or feel seen,

record a short video, 30 seconds or less, and well, hopefully much less. Upload it to Jordan Harbinger.com slash Gabe, G-A-B-E. Submissions have already been trickling, and we've been watching them behind the scenes. Some are super touching. Others are totally hilarious.

Shout out to the listeners who dug popped a balloon on camera. That was pretty cool. We can't wait to stitch them together, surprise Gabe. And remember, this is a secret. No tagging, no spoilers. Thank you for helping us pull this off. You all seriously rock and he's going to love it. Today on the show, Charlemagne, the god is back. Now, this is funny. I was doing this one live in person in New York, I should say. And there's a studio in Manhattan that I use. There's a few. And this one happened

to have a vacant property on the ground floor. So there's this homeless guy who sleeps in the doorway, and I'd been in this studio every day for a week for most days. And this guy was always in the doorway, and he was always asleep. I never saw him awake at all. And I'm on my way back to studio, I went to 7-Eleven to get a protein shake, hashtag meathead phase. And this homeless guy is awake standing up and he's on a phone. I guess he has a cell phone. And I knew that Charlemagne had arrived to studio because this homeless guy was yelling into the phone. Charlemagne, the guide, is here. Charlemagne the guy. Charlemagne the guy. Charlemian the guy is here. That's how I knew he made to studio because there was some talk about he might have to cancel. There's a family thing going on.

The studio wasn't cancelable. So I found out half a block away because that homeless this guy started losing his mind that Charlemagne the God was in studio. And indeed, we had a great conversation. It was a hell of a lot of fun. I really enjoyed talking to this guy. I know you'll enjoy this conversation as well. It's all about success, career, mental health, rapport with others, relationships, and we dive into some pop culture stuff, as it were.

I think it's a really fun and interesting conversation that is not full of small talk, and I think you'll enjoy it as well. Now, here we go with Charlemagne the God. You start the new book talking about Kanye. I'm going to guess you're a little bit sick of this guy by now. I think a lot of people should take this guy by now. You're the one person that I feel like I can ask this because you have some experience with him. How can a black dude be a white supremacist?

I don't get it. You asking me, I have no idea either. I think that's one of the most confusing things that we've ever witnessed. Think about it like this. It's so confusing that the only time we ever even saw that premise was on Dave Chappelle when he did Clayton Bigsby and when Aaron McGruder did the boondocks with Uncle Ruckus. So it was done. in satire.

So to like to see it really play out in real life to the extremes. Like, I mean, don't get me wrong, you've always had what people call Coons or Sam Bowls, right? But for him to be walking around with a KKK uniform on and it's all black or like the White Lives Matter shirt, you're only doing that to agitate people who are screaming Black Lives Matter. So you go out of your way to piss off the black community and to say things that you know will cause the black community to get in an uproar. Like, you know, when he was on drink champs and he was talking about George Floyd and he was repeating all of the right wing conservative talking points about how they feel George Floyd passed away because he had fentanyl in his system and stuff like that. So for you to go out of your way to be a black white supremacist is actually insane. It's almost like he's like an Oreo supremacist. Is that what you would call that?

What would you call that? It's just strange. I shouldn't laugh, but I guess it's just so ridiculous. Like it's so over the top. And yet it's not even as a meant as a joke. Like, it's not like he's tongue in cheek with it. He's totally serious. But you shouldn't take it personal because Kanye is one of those people that's tried everything to offend folks. Yeah. I mean, literally, he's been anti-Semitic.

Yeah. He's been a black-white supremacist. I've never seen somebody crave attention the way that he has. This guy literally went from my mom, God bless the dead, was a lesbian one week. That didn't get the pop he wanted. So, hey, guess what, y'all? I suck my cousin's dick until I was 14. Literally the very next week.

I suck my cousin's dick until I was 14. So you're just trying on gay now? You're cause gay now? Like literally, just because you're looking for a certain level of attention, I don't want that. I don't ever want to get to the point where I'm craving attention that much. No healthy person does, though. And it's interesting because you talk a lot about therapy, and one of our last shows is all about therapy and mental health. This is a guy who either doesn't understand or craves it so much that he doesn't care.

He just goes negative attention, easier to get. I get more of it. I'm going to do that. Like most of us, positive attention, I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but it's okay. Negative attention. I avoid that because that's what normal people do. And he's just like, nah, I don't care. You know, man, it's hard for me to have empathy for Kanye.

And I tell you why, because I've heard him talk about his perceived struggles with mental health before. But then he plays hokey pokey with it. He'll tell you, oh, I got bipolar. I'm dealing with depression, right? but then he'll, no, I'm not. You're aware, first of all, you're aware that something may be going on, and you have every single resource. You have access to the best resources to get the help that you claim you needed at one point.

Yeah, you could hire the best therapist in the world. The best. Like, you know, I saw him complaining about being 51, 50 to one time by the Kardashian-Gener's. I don't know if that was true or not, but even if it's not to that extreme, you can go get some type of healing if you want it. You're choosing not to. And what you're doing now is you're projecting whatever hurt and trauma you have onto everybody else. It's hard for me to feel sorry for a person like that because in a lot of ways,

and I'm not here to diagnose nobody, but it's just in a lot of ways, I'm like, if you're that self-aware and you're that strategic and methodical about how you choose to fuck with people, how mentally ill are you really? You're right. I'm not a doctor. I don't know much about a 51.50 for those who don't know. is what, like involuntarily committed, basically like a psych hold. They call people on you and they come lock you up.

Like I said, I'm not trying to diagnose him. If that brother needs some help, I really truly hope he gets it. But it's hard for me to have any type of empathy when I've heard him talk about his mental health struggles, but he's not actually going out there to do the work to try to get better. Like you're choosing. Yeah. You're consciously choosing, intentionally choosing to fuck with people. Yeah.

And you could be consciously and intentionally choosing to go get some healing. It's probably a hell of a lot harder to go, I got to look in the mirror every day with a therapist for an hour and get to the bottom of all my trauma. It's probably harder to do that than to be like, you know what, I can get my publicist to make this blow up, and then I can deal with the fallout of that, and I can ignore the fallout of that,

and I can blame my ex-wife for this. That's right. I'm good. To me, it's way easier to go get help, go get on your healing journey, than it is to constantly come up with new ways to garner attention. I don't know where you go after I stuck my cousin's dick until I was 14 years.

So I don't even understand the context of what he was trying to say. Like, it's just strange. It makes no sense. Like some African-Americans say they hate Jews or whatever. And I've used to that. I've met a lot of, when I worked at Detroit, there was these nation of Islam guys or something like that. And they kept telling me how much they hated Jews. And I was like, you know, my mom's Jewish.

And they're like, well, that makes you a Jew. And then they treated me different. I didn't like it. That's like my first experience with, I guess, racism and a Semitism. You know, it's interesting. My father was a Jehovah Witness. And, you know, he got into Islam and the nation. So I've been around the nation, literally my whole life.

You know, one of the first books that my dad gave me was the autobiography of Malcolm X. I love that book because it shows that Malcolm Little can evolve to be someone like Malcolm X. And the thing I love about the nation is they have always taken those of us who have submitted to the worst than us. It made us raise up and submit to the best of us. A lot of people submit to the devil in them, but the nation is not makes you submit to the God. And one thing that I've always loved, because the autobiography of Malcolm X led me to read message to the black man by the honorable Elijah Muhammad, who I think is just one of the greatest humans to ever walk the face to the earth just because of the community he built called the nation to Islam. But you know what the honorable, Elijah Muhammad would always say, learn from Jewish people, study Jewish people.

They practice unity and group operations. So I didn't grow up with the hate Jew thing. I don't know where that came from. And I think that's a narrative that I know for a fact a lot of people in the nation do not carry. And I think the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan gets a lot of flak because if you listen to the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, which I have been for my whole life, the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan calls out everybody.

He's not saying all Jewish people are bad, just like he doesn't say all black people are bad. He calls out the people in the black community he feels are holding us back, and he calls out people in the Jewish community who he feels are holding progress back. rabbis and people come to the mosque all the time and, you know, build with the honorable minister Louis Farrakhan. I never understood. I don't know a lot of the teachings that I'm glad to hear you say this because I thought it was surprising because I'm not super Jewish, but you always grow up hearing that we are like really closely related as Semitic people. And I know that's

different with Nation of Islam, but it doesn't matter. So it was surprising. And also I didn't understand what that was based on. Of course, I didn't know anything about the Arab-Israeli conflict when I was 17 years old. So it was very odd. And I remember, like, they wouldn't let their wives talk to me. And then even though we worked together, it was like this weird thing where I had to talk to them. Yeah, they were like, my wife's not allowed to talk to you.

And I was like, I had to talk to them to tell their wife something. And my boss ended up being like, this is a huge pain in the ass. I was a manager at one point. And he needs to be able to tell you what to do. You can't be like telling her husband who's not at the same site or whatever to tell you to do. Like it doesn't work. And then I ran into those like, what are they called?

Black Hebrew Israelites. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was next level because I was like, oh, hey, this is cool. You guys are Jews. And they were like, this is not cool, buddy. Like, I was like, oh, never mind. I thought we were going to. But you know, it's interesting with that too, because I feel like a lot of individuals feel that if we say, hey, we're the real Jewish people, then all of the great things that Jewish people have been able to accomplish automatically, magically just gets transferred to you.

Because, like, I'm serious. I really think that's people's mentality. That's interesting. I think that's where a lot of folks' frustration comes into play, but this is what I always say, man. It's like, don't generalize a whole group of people because you might have had a bad experience or have a false narrative of one person.

Like, if one black person robs you, that don't mean all black people are robbers, right? You know what I'm saying? If you had one bad experience with a Jewish person, that don't mean all Jewish people are evil and I have to get you like, and I really do not like the broad generalization. But that right there is something I've thought about.

I really feel like a lot of black people, people feel like, hey, if we are the real Jews, are the real, like, Israelites, we should have the benefits that Jewish people have. I really think they think it's just some, like, magical transfer. Yeah, it's weird. I never understood it. I think a lot of Jews agree.

Our numbers are small. If you want to join the club, we should come join the club, man, but probably don't be like two tassels about everything. I'll be the first to tell you, when I look at the number of Jewish people in this country and what Jewish people have been able to accomplish, it's inspiring to me. I don't know what to tell folks.

You know, like, I believe what the, Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, study Jewish people. They practice unity and group operation. I used to live in a Jewish neighborhood in New Jersey. And it was so peaceful on Saturday. It was so peaceful. It's just certain things I disrespect. I like observing other cultures and seeing how other people move.

And you cannot make me believe that a whole group of people are terrible just because of a narrative. Because I wouldn't want nobody to look at black people like that. For sure. That doesn't make a lot of it. Whenever I talk about this on my show, it's pretty rare. I mean, I've done it like once or twice. I'll get a lot of show fans who are from the nation of Islam.

They'll be like, I don't even know if I believe it. Or they'll be like, this is rare. And I've heard that so many times that I believe it because people have no incentive to lie to me. I mean, but they're tweeting at me or something. I know they don't. I think that is one of the greatest false narratives about the nation of Islam that they hate Jewish people. I'm telling you it's the exact opposite. This was like one chapter in Detroit that was just spreading that stuff for sure.

Because I met all those folks and they really all had the same narrative, but they all went to the same, I guess, mosque or whatever. Yeah. So it's just one place. It's definitely a social media thing, right? But it's like I've been to the mosque several times. I never heard that. I go back to what I was always originally taught.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, learn from Jewish people, study Jewish people. They pool their resources. They practice unity and group operation. They operate as a community. Literally, the nation of Islam was modeled off of that. Yeah. I mean, look, as long as it's not like a dog whistle for Jews control the world, fine, because sometimes people use it as like a little code like, yeah, see, they do group operations.

And it's like, oh, that's good. Or it's like they group operations. How they're all a secret network, you know? We had Jonathan Grebel at the head at ADL on the breakfast club a couple of times. And we had those conversations. Like, you know, where does the narrative come that Jews control Hollywood? There is history behind that, right? But it's because nobody wanted to be in Hollywood. Like literally Jewish people went out to California and established just industry that nobody wanted to be a part of.

But as far as their control. controlling the media and they're controlling all of the images that people see. And, you know, all the negative narratives about everybody are because of these wicked Jewish puppet. It's like, all right, come on, man. It is definitely a bridge too far. I mean, a lot of cultures, I can only really speak for the Jewish part that I know about. But one of the reasons the Jews became bankers was because it was against certain religions in those areas at that time to lend money for interest.

And the Jews were like, oh, we'll do it. Because there's a gap in the market. And then it was like, oh, look at them loaning money predatorily. And it's like, you're the one borrowing it. It's against your religion. You need us to do this. Or like, look at their international trade. Yeah, because you won't let us have other jobs.

I remember the first time I heard that story. And I was like, so you're upset because they did good business? Yeah. Exactly. What? That's kind of just, it's just strange to me, man. I had a buddy who was kind of anti-Semitic for a while. And then he stopped.

And I said, what made you change your mind? And he said, I realized all the reason I didn't like Jews was all the reasons that you should actually just admire Jews. Like, they do good business. They operate as a group. He's like, all these things that made me angry, I realized were like, I should probably be doing that. You know, do you know, I got in, I'm not going to say trouble, because it wasn't in no real trouble. But there was a backlash about maybe like five. It was whenever Nick Cannon had got into his situation. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember, you know, he got let go from whaling out for a brief moment. And I remember I was on breakfast club and I said, man, this was around the time of Brianna Taylor. She was the one who got

shot by the police while sleeping with her boyfriend, right? Yeah. They just kicked her door and shot her. It was Breonna Taylor and it was another case that was going on. It might have been the brother that was running through the neighborhood. I don't remember. But I was on the radio and I said, man, I mean, because Nick Hanne got fired like quick. Yeah. And I remember saying, man, this just proves how much power Jewish people have. And I can't wait until we get that kind of power, meaning black people, because we can't even get the people who kill us fired.

Right. Talking about the police officers. I know. I find that also completely insane. You know, there was all of these different Jewish outlets, and they were like, Charlamagne the God is anti-Semitic propaganda, you know, saying the Jews have power. I'm like, that was a compliment.

I wasn't trying. I wasn't saying that they sold nobody. I was saying that I cannot wait until we can have that kind of power to where we can get the people who kill us fired. It's hard to disagree with that. Look, there's people believe all cops or bastards or whatever. The saying is if these people are out there murdering people in disproportionate numbers,

we all need the power to get people who are abusing authority fired. Just that it's very hard to do if you are African-American right now. Like, that's the way it is. So I understand what you're saying. I feel like they spun that deliberately to get clicks. That's some bullshit. That's what I said. It wasn't really anything that there was any backlash over.

It was just like, wait a minute. But also, that's how me and Jonathan started talking. Yeah. I'm like, you've got to explain to me why this is bad. What did I step in and did I really step in? Yeah. But he explained that he was like, you know, that reinforces a lot of negative tropes about, you know, Jewish people.

I just don't like generalizations, man, because I'm a person who has had the beauty of growing up around a lot of different individuals. Growing up in Montauqua and South Carolina, I grew up on a dirt road. And all my friends on the left were black. And then my first white friend was still my friends in this day, Thomas Evans and his family was on the right.

And my dad and Thomas would literally be outside, drinking their bib. And if somebody came down the road, like, the big pickup truck to the Confederate flag, both of them. Jimbo was white and my dad was black. Both of them would be like, look at them, crackers, right?

You know what I'm saying? So it was like it never was about anything other than the environment that we were in. It was a class thing. Man, I've had the luxury, and I guess the privilege of like having so many different people helped me throughout my life. Yeah.

You know, the first person who ever hired me in radio literally gave me a paying job with a gay black man named Hajee, Jenkins and Charleston, South Carolina, right? And me and Hajie would be together all of the time, you know, because I was in the promotion department, he was the head of promotions. I didn't care he was gay. If you grow in the business, the people that you meet who see things in you that you may

not see in yourself and want to help you get to that next level. Yeah. They're white. They're Jewish. They're black men. They're black women. It doesn't matter. I like energy.

You know? What's your energy like? If me and your energy mesh, if me and your energy click, we good. Any narratives or stereotypes or generalizations? I'm not with that. Yeah, I mean, look, that has served you super well throughout your whole career. You write about it a lot. I always got to laugh when I hear Monk's Corner because, one, it sounds like a fake place.

Like, why do they call it that? And then also, in one of your books or one of your shows you did with me, you talk about how people would end up under the tree. And I was like, oh, that's a metaphor. And you're like, no, they literally are sitting under a tree. Yeah, my dad would say, if you don't change your lifestyle, you're going to end up in jail, dead or broke sitting under the tree. Yeah.

And those are things that I saw early on that made me realize, like, oh, my dad, dad is right. There was people around me that was really going to jail. I went to jail myself. There was people really dying around me. And there was people that I used to look up to that was literally broke sitting under the tree. So I'm like, oh, that ain't generalizing. This shit can literally happen. This is real, real potential consequence. I know you're a huge Judy Blume fan, which people might be like, what? Tell us who that is because I know she's a author, but I can't remember. Isn't that your goddess me, Margaret? Yes. Judy Blum is the greatest young adult author. ever. The only person that's even close to me is Beverly Clearly.

Oh, yeah. But Judy Bloom wrote, Are You There, Goddess Me? Margaret, she wrote, blubber, she wrote Forever. She wrote Superfudge. Superfudge. That's right. I remember reading that. Tales of a fourth grade, nothing. Judy has written so many fantastic books. One of my favorite Judy Blume book is Iggy's house. But the reason I got into Judy Blum is because my mother was an English teacher in South Carolina. And so we also had to book your program. So you had to read four books to get a free pizza. You get your four stars and you know, you can get your pizza. And so I used to run through books. And the best advice my mom ever gave me that stuck with me, even past literature, was when she said, read things that don't pertain to you. Because we all

tend to do that, right? Like, we all grew up in our bubbles. We all grew up in our echo chambers. And so we only kind of like stick to the things that are in that box. And she would always tell me read things that don't pertain to me. So that's what made me get outside of my box to not communicate with other people who don't come from the same environment I come from or who may not be the same color I am or gender, whatever. And so I started reading Beverly Clearly and Judy Blum because when I would be in the library, the opposite of me was these little white girls and these little white boys that was on these books. And so I would read everything. And the thing that made me fall in love with Judy Blum was her storytelling ability. What I'm into, Joined?

I like storytelling. That's the reason I love hip-hop. That's the reason I love country music. That's the reason I love movies. Like, I love books because of the storytelling aspect. you know, I have sang Judy Blum's praises for as long as I can remember to the point where one Christmas she sent me and my daughter an autograph copy of All You There, God, it's me, Margaret. And I thought it was my team fucking with me. I was like, come on, why she didn't sign this? Because it's two autographed copies. And then the movie came out.

Well, the movie was coming out. And they were having a screening for it in New York. And they were like, hey, Julie would like for you to come see her. I'm like, why are you fucking with me? And they was like, no, right. who wants you to come see, Judy wants you to come see it. So I went and I met Judy and I met her lovely husband and her son. And it's just like we've developed a relationship since then.

I've flown down to Key West a couple of times and, you know, had dinner, me and my wife with, you know, her and her husband. And we've, you know, I went down to the premiere in Key West of all you there, God is me, Margaret. We communicate. You know, we did, when Simon, she used to had their 100 centennial event, me and Judy did an event together on stage. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's just like we have a relationship. It's unexpected, and I don't think a lot of people would see, like, middle-aged, black dude, hip-hop show, and is like, yeah, I love Judy Blum.

I love Judy Blum. She's a great, but I look at Judy Blum the same way. I look at J-Z. I look at Judy Blum the same way. I look at Killer Mike, Scarface. She's just a great storyteller. I'm telling you, my favorite Julie Blum book is Iggy's House. I want to bring Iggy's House to, like, the big screen or something.

Like, if you ever read Iggy's House, it's like her first book, and, you know, she asked me all the time. You don't think this book could be taken wrong now in 2025? I'm like, no. I don't even know what that's about. What does she worry about? Iggy's house was about a young girl named Winnie, who lived in a neighborhood in Michigan, and her best friend's name was Iggy,

but Iggy moved. And so the neighborhood was anticipating who is going to be moving in this new house. Iggy's family never told anybody because they wanted to be a surprise, and it was a black family. And so this black family moves into this neighborhood, and they are experiencing a lot of racism

from a lot of people in the neighborhood. And Iggy is like the white ally before there was white allieship. Like she's the person who was like standing up for this family and supporting this family. And then she had the people, one of the brothers in the family was like,

get out of here with your white savior complex. Like it's just a real, like Judy was so ahead of her time. Oh my God. Yeah. She was so ahead of her time because, you know, when he was woke.

Right. She was what you would call a woke, you know, liberal person, like railing against her, father and because her father had racist. I don't want to say he was completely racist, but he had racist tendencies. He had a little sprinkler racism. You don't have a problem living in the neighborhood, but y'all stay over here. So I love Iggy's house. I think it's a fantastic book,

but yes, I love Judy, man. It's been a pleasure to be able to build a relationship with her and call her a friend. I know you had social anxiety when you were a kid, and I guess a lot of people if I don't see how that is possible because of who you are now. What did that look like when you're growing up? It's interesting that you have that question because of who I am now. I created that character, Charlemagne, the god, to protect Leonard, because Leonard was the person dealing with all the social anxiety and, you know, the bouts of depression. Leonard was the person who was just trying to fit in when he was in sixth, seventh grade, because he was tired of getting bullied by his older cousins, right, because he wasn't the tough guy.

And it got to a point where it's like, you can't beat him, join them. It literally was like a villain origin story. Like, they used to bully me so much. My glasses used to always fall off. And one day the glasses just fell and hit the ground and just broke. And so I just squinted my way through Thug Life, right? I was like, you know what? If I can't beat them, join them.

And so the character that was created when I was 17 was what I wanted people to see me as. So if I created this character, it would distract you from the guy with these anxiety and these bouts of depression and new insecurities, you know what I mean? And so what has been one of the great joys of my life in recent years is allowing Leonard, who's gone on this journey, healing journey since 2016, going to therapy and plant-based medicines and doing all of these different things to fix a lot of that unheeled trauma. It's been a pleasure to watch that person and Charlemagne actually meeting each. Yeah, yeah. The alter ego is blending in with the real identity or whatever. It's like Smart Hulk. It's when Bruce Banner and the Hulk finally combined. Last time we hung out 2021, you told me you were getting rid of Twitter and other social media.

That's episode 171, which is kind of funny because this is probably like 1,300. 171 or something. See Instagram here and there, but... Yeah, I get on Instagram. I don't do Twitter at all. Yeah. I ain't... That was pure negativity.

Whatever Twitter evolved into, I don't want either one of them, right? And it's like I knew back then, even before it was an Elon Musk and he opened the floodgates, it just wasn't good for my mental health because I just feel like nobody should have access to that much opinion about them. That's a good point. I always say we're in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones by choice. Yeah, by choice. I would literally get on social media and tweet out,

thank you God for bless me with another day of life. And there would be people saying, man, I was wishing you die. I was praying you die. I'm like, Jesus Christ, why am I, you know, subjecting myself to that? And, you know, another thing, too, as a media personality, it became such an echo chamber and you would be talking to people and you would be like, you got that from Twitter. That's not even your original thought on the situation.

You don't even really feel like that. You're literally just parroting what you see people on social media say. I don't want people to tell me what to think. I don't want people to tell me what to believe. I was at the University of Chicago yesterday with David Axelrod, and I was talking to the students, and I told him this. One of them guys asked me a very brilliant question.

He said, what is broken in the media ecosystem? Because he felt like the media ecosystem is broken because these clips and everything are creating these narratives. And I go, the media ecosystem isn't broken at all. The way we consume content is, because a two-minute clip of Jordan and Charlemagne can go viral. Somebody might take me just saying something about Jews, whatever. You know what I'm saying?

But somebody could take that one little clip, 10 seconds, put it online. And I'm like, I didn't even say that. So you as a person have to challenge yourself when you get a 30-second clip or a minute clip or a two-minute clip, you got to go challenge yourself to watch the whole context of the conversation. That's like a part-time job, right? So you might as well avoid the whole thing. If you're going to have to do an hour of fact-checking to make sure that things someone sent you is real. Would you rather have that be a part-time job or would you rather just be lazy and do a half-ass job?

I would just avoid it all together. Like, I don't even want the drama. I don't want the little clip or the little clip. I just want to play Legos with my kids or something. By the way, that's a good way to handle it. But most people don't. They see that little clip and then they form a whole narrative about it. They form a whole opinion around it.

And now people hate Charlemander. They hate Jordan because of a 35-second clip. I don't like that guy. based off a 45-second clip. You hate his whole life because of a 45-second or a minute-long clip. So the media ecosystem isn't broken. The way we consume content is. Since I don't want to end up broke under a tree,

I need you to support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for free over at 6Minut Networking.com. I know what you're thinking. I network fine. I don't need this.

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again, it's free, over at six-minute networking.com. All right, now back to Charlemaine the God. When I interviewed Kobe a long time ago, about two, three months before he passed away, I'd ask him what kind of music he likes. And I thought it would be funny if you had a Taylor Swift CD in your car. And he goes, oh, I love Taylor Swift. That went viral, but people were looking at me like, oh, he must not like Taylor Swift. He was making fun at Taylor Swift.

He thought Kobe was going to bite on that. And people were like, they came after me. It was like, Jordan, he tried to shit talk Taylor Swift. I didn't even think about that. I just thought it would be funny if Kobe Bryant had Taylor Swift in his car because he has daughters. He did have Taylor Swift to his car

because he has daughters and he loves Taylor Swift. It was so wholesome, honestly. People wanted to find the negative part of this wholesome clip of Kobe talking up Taylor and how she's a legend and killer. He called her a killer.

And that went viral and people were like, this Jordan guy sucks. I got so much hate from then and I had a little glimpse into being like an actual famous person for like two seconds because it got like 28 million views on TikTok. I had to stop reading the comments

because I started to hate myself. These people hated me. I'm actually surprised that don't happen to you more because of the fact that you've had this huge platform for so long and like we talked for a living. Yeah. Like there's so many things people can take out of context. You know what it is? I ignore TikTok.

My team doesn't make social media clips that are like for viral appeal. I think other people do it. I don't even know how they make money doing it, but they'll do it. But then they don't tag me in it, right? Because they want the, they don't say like, oh, Jordan Harbinger did that. They're like, this is motivational Instagram under hyphen IG. So the comments that are negative about me are on accounts that I never see. at all.

Yeah. They're out there. I just, you have to look for them and I'm like, why am I going to do that to myself? You wouldn't do that to yourself. It's really a choice.

It is a choice. I literally, you can be riding in a car or be at home. Let me go on YouTube and see what they're saying about me. I can guarantee you they ain't saying nothing good. They ain't saying a motherfucking thing good about you. So why would you go subject yourself to that level of abuse for what? And by the way,

show me the place where people are actually saying positive things about a person. on social media. Like those moments are so few and far between. That's the reason I like Instagram. You can mute words and block certain words and you curate your content to where you do have like this community where it's like you and the people you actually follow. And most of the people that follow you if they're following you is because they like you. Yeah, except for the psychos. But yeah. Except for the psychos. Those people are insane. That's a form of insanity. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So why are you following me every day? Why are you leaving comments if you don't

like what I do. But you know, there was a theory back in the day, Howard Stern. They said either twice or three times the people, when it came to his ratings, the people who didn't like him listened three times as much than the people who actually did. That's so weird to me. I don't think I consume anything from anybody that I don't like. I don't know why you would do that. Hey, the algorithm. People like to be outraged. They definitely do. But guess what? The algorithm don't know the difference, Joe. Yeah. But like literally, if you start trending right now, there's probably somebody who don't like you, taking a clip out of contact. But the people who do like you will be defending you.

Like, you got to listen to the whole pod, you idiot. And it just creates this tsunami on social media. I don't know. I remember just knows Jordan Harbinger's mentioned 10,000 times in the last 25 minutes. What do you think of Taylor Swift? I don't. I don't mean that. I did a social experiment about Taylor one time when I was on the Burian Idiot's podcast

with my guy Andrew Schultz. I did a social experiment while I were debating about who was bigger, Beyonce or Taylor Swift. and I made up this whole lie called the Michael Jackson Law where I said Beyonce is so big she can't even go eat at restaurants in public because it'll cause like a stampede and a riot and she'll get charged for that. And I go, but I'm lying and I want y'all to know that I'm lying.

But it doesn't matter that I'm lying because somebody's going to still take that clip and post it online and run with it. Guess what they did, Joy? They took that clip and posted it online and ran with it. Sholomani God says that Beyonce can't go out in public because of the Michael Jackson law. I literally told you all I was lying. I was one of my favorite books is Brian Holiday.

Trust me, I'm lying. I say that all the time. You should believe me even when I'm lying. Because I know nobody cares about the truth when the lie is more entertaining. It's true, yeah. People don't care about the truth, period, now that. They just want to be entertained.

I hate that. You wrote in the book, We sink to the lowest common denominator. We avoid the big questions by filling our minds with fluff, nonsense that delays action and learning. That's pretty insightful. Tell me what you mean by this. The book you're talking about is my new book,

Get On as a Dialline, Why Small Talk Sucks, and I think, you know, it goes back to what we were talking about. Like, digging for the truth is hard. Actually, searching for facts is hard. Having your opinion, our narrative, challenged by truth and facts is hard because there is comfort in, you know, what you want to believe.

That's what it's saying ignorance is bliss comes from. If you don't know, you can just remain happy. And that thing that you don't know will keep you happy. But then when somebody challenges you or tells you the truth and makes you change your mind, now you questioning yourself, but you shouldn't. Like you're a human being. Yeah. And intelligent human beings, wise human beings, they have no problem changing their mind when presented with new information.

So I think, you know, people have a hard time dealing with the reality of situations. That's another reason I hate small talk because, you know, you might come up to me and you have a goal, you have an intention with the conversation you actually want to have with me. but you start taking me down this other timeline of nonsense. Charlemagne, have you been working out? I like your jean jacket. Oh, your head is so shiny. Like, whatever.

Like, bro, what do you want? Yeah, yeah. Don't hit me with all the fluff and everything. That's right. Let's get right to it. We know what we're here for. What do you want? Well, you probably didn't even see these,

but I get these pitches that are like clearly written by AI with the like, I loved your latest episode on Charlemagne the God, get honest or die lying, and then there's a paragraph of shit. And I'm like, what are you selling me? And then if you get to the bottom of the three paragraphs, it's like, my new book on financial management for people who live in Canada would be a great fit. And it's like, no, just start with that. And I'll delete this early and I won't be mad at you for pitching because, you know, shoot your shot.

But now I'm mad at you because I had to read three paragraphs about my show. If you're trying to butter me up with chat GPD, get this out of here. You don't have to do that. And another thing is like, small talk is also when somebody come up to you and be like, so, Jordan, how are you? Like the shallow version. Yeah. Because they don't really care. They don't care. Because either hit them with this.

either tell them exactly what's really going on. Yeah. I do that. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I just had a vasectomy. My left nut is super swollen and affected. It barely fits in these joggers, dude. Exactly.

Okay. I just wanted to know what you. Yeah. You actually didn't want to know at all because now you're just forced to actually listen to me. And so I felt like this since COVID. And I think COVID taught us this a little bit. Don't ask people how they're doing if you're not ready for a real answer. Yeah, yeah.

I like that. Because COVID was the moment where everybody had to be still. COVID is the moment where a lot of us felt very alone. COVID is the moment where a lot of us looked in the mirror and didn't necessarily like what we saw. So if you asked somebody how they are, most people couldn't wait to tell you because we hadn't been no human contact.

You'd go to the store. Remember when all of us was going to the store at certain hours with the mask on and you would see somebody and you'd be talking six feet away. I'm like, how are you? You couldn't wait to tell that person what you were really feeling because we didn't have no human contact.

You know, all of that stuff, man, it's just like, yo, be intentional with what you want to say to people. You know what I mean? Like, have a goal. Like, don't just come to me bullshit. Because that's exactly what small talk is. It's just bullshit. Let's just get to me to the conversation. You mentioned some categories of small talk.

Maybe I'm confused, but you say small talk about God, small talk about dreams, small talk about our kids. But those are real topics. But I guess what you're saying is don't come at it in a fluffy way. Those are real topics. Go deep immediately. Let's have real conversation? Yeah. That book is literally designed.

for people who don't know what the larger conversation is they want to talk about. Because I really do feel like we live in a world where we make micros, macros. Like, man, the week we're recording this, there's been more conversation about, can a hundred men be the gorilla? Why do I keep seeing this? Why do I keep seeing that? I don't get it. There's just been more conversation around, can a hundred men be the gorilla than it has been

about a president saying they don't know whether they should have to uphold the Constitution. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like we don't know how to discuss macro issue. That's a good point. We really make micros macros. And it is so strange to me. And I don't know if it's because I go back to what I said earlier,

people are trying to avoid the reality. I think that's safe. It's much easier to talk about can a hundred men beat a monkey than it is to talk about issues that are really impacting us as a society or could impact us as a society? That's a good point. It's less scary to talk about could a hundred men beat a gorilla than it is to be like, Hey, do you think if we go to war, your kids are going to get drafted? That's scary.

But those are the things that we should be talking about. I agree with you. Yeah. Because the same vigor that we use to have those conversations on social media, we should be having to, you know, I guess, protect the Constitution. Probably a good idea. You know? Right?

To protect democracy. Like, and I'm not even saying it on like no Democrat Republican thing. No, just as a person who wants rights at some point in their country. That's it. That's literally, far as I knew, my first. whole life that piece of paper was what made America coming. Yeah. So if people are just wiping their ass with that piece of paper, then what are we now? I remember learning that that was like the immutable document

that was bulletproof and now it's like maybe we're just going to ignore it. That scares me. That freaks me out, man. And man, you know what I hate. I watch all the networks, right? Oh, that's my biggest problem is I'm curious. Yeah. I read like that's my biggest issue. I'm curious. So I watch everything. I watch Fox. I watch CNN. I watch MSNBC. I watch Young Turks. I watch PVD. I watch all the different platforms, right? CNN fisses me off the most. Why is that? Even though I love it, it's so entertaining, but they ask answers. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've seen this like on 60 minutes. Well, they'll just throw the question and be like, Does Donald Trump have to uphold the Constitution? Yes. He's the president of the United States of America.

You know that. Why are you even asking this? Can Donald Trump run for a third term? You know he can't. But guess what? The average person does it. Yeah. So that's a good point. The average person is watching CNN and watching y'all debate something that actually has an answer. But being that they're watching you debate it, now they don't know. Now they're questioning it. Now they're calling the radio station and seeing me in the street and telling me, I don't know what the I'm talking about. You can run for a third term as president.

That's crazy to me. I learned that in like CISC great. Now I get why you got a security guard. You got people telling you stupid shit all this. Choke that guy out and let me eat my lunch. Yes. That's what it is. One line hit me hard from the book.

I really feel this. You said our lives get smaller and smaller as we get older. Our lives get smaller and smaller as we get older because, you know, if you're doing this life thing, right, you really start to realize what's important. You stop being a people pleasing and you stop just trying to have a whole bunch of people around you just to make yourself feel better. Like, you know who you can really trust.

You know who you really love. Like you're very cognizant of who makes your energy go up and who makes your energy go down. And those people who make your energy go down, you really try to stay away from them. Your circle gets so small that it becomes a dot. Yeah, a little bit of a prison, I think. I know you put some thought into this.

For me, like my social circle will get smaller and I'm constantly fighting routine, but I don't feel like my whole life has gotten smaller just because I've got kids, trying new hobbies, make new friends, but man, you've got to really put energy into that or I don't know about you, making friends as a middle-aged man is not easy.

It's hard to go up to somebody and be like, hey, that was a fun conversation, we should hang out again because it's like vulnerable and other people are busy. What's wrong being vulnerable? Nothing, but it's not how we're raised. It's something you've got to put energy into

kind of to swim upstream and make it a habit. I don't think it's natural for most guys our age, do you? Yes, I do think it's natural. The reason I'll tell you why I think it's natural. I think it's natural because, you know, when you make your circle smaller intentionally, the universe naturally, God naturally, brings people around you that should be around you.

I truly believe that. I'm aware of who I'm sharing space with. I'm intentional about who I'm sharing space with. I wake up in the morning, I go to breakfast club. I'm intentional about who that space is. I know who all of those people are in that room. These are the people that I choose to be around. I like having them around.

The energy that isn't good for us, we try to eliminate. I'm not just out and about. Of course, when you're going out and about in your everyday life, you're going to run into people, but I'm not just hanging out. I'm leaving the station. I'm getting in my car. I'm going home.

I know that me and my wife going to work out. I'm going to be around my kids. I'm going to be around my family. And any place I choose to go, I pay attention to the people that I meet in those moments. I'm sorry, but it could be the person sitting next to me on the plane. Being that person is sharing space, whatever period of time. And if it's meant for us to have a conversation and that might turn into something else,

then it naturally will. But you have to be aware of the spaces that you're in and know that everybody you're meeting, you're probably meeting for a reason, especially if you have trim the fat and you're intentional about where you go, who you share space with. I think it sounds like we're kind of saying

the same thing. I'm just saying you got to put energy into it. I personally have to put energy into it because my default nature was just to maybe not pay attention to that. But as I got older, I was like, this is going to get lonely if I don't pay attention to this.

And if it's organic and if it's meant to be, it'd be effortless. It won't feel like you spending no energy. Like the relationships that you have that you feel like, God damn, you're pulling teeth or you spending a lot of energy

to try to connect and make happen, that's probably not the relationship for you. Yeah, you're right. You don't pay attention to our energy in Notre Jordan. Like, I am very aware and cognizant of who and what makes my energy go up and who and what makes my energy go down. And the things that make my energy go down, I don't have time for at 46, almost 47 years old. I can absolutely relate to that.

You almost 47? That'll be 47 June 29th. Wow. Oh, wow. Happy birthday. That's coming right up. Yeah. Yeah.

Nice. Do you feel old? I don't feel old. I'm 45. Well, I feel old. Do you feel older or do you feel more, I do feel older. Man, it's still crazy.

I feel so mature but then so immature at the same time. I can relate, man. I get it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because at this age, like, and that's why I like, you know, kicking the shit with like my guy like Andrew Schultz and my home girls who really just understand that life is about laughing.

Even in the most serious situations, like me and my wife, it's like the older we get, the more immature we get. I don't know because we got kids and we like. That's part of it, I think. Yeah. I don't know what it is. It's like the older I get, the more mature I get, more responsibilities we have that make us feel like adults, but I feel very immature.

Me and my wife say that all the time. We were just having that conversation like, yeah, we really adults. We've been together since we was kids. We've been together for 27 years. We're like, you know, we're really adults. We got four kids. Like, my oldest daughter is doing college visits now. Oh, that's got to make you feel old.

You know what I'm saying? She's driving? To answer your question, do I feel older? Yes, I feel more mature, but I feel more immature too. Yeah, I can relate. It's hard to explain, but it's definitely because I think it's definitely because of kids, because before I had kids, my kids are young, five, and three, I definitely was like, I'm not real an adult yet. And then I had kids and I was like, nope, this is the final frontier of like, you have the ultimate responsibility now. Yeah. You don't just have a mortgage, which you can shrug off

and if you want to screw up your life. Like, now you've got kids, you don't have the option of screwing up anymore. And I think, you know, because thank God, all praise is due to God, for having success. When you have success and you don't have to work. worry about certain things, like you know certain things that taking care of, like bills and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. You don't really have those stressors. So literally, a lot of your stress only comes from having to deal with other people and their

problems. That's a good because you've created these boundaries and protected your peace in a way to where you're good. But then people will always try to make their problems your problem. I think that when you don't have those type of stressors, it's easy to really explore like who you are and who I am at the core is a very immature of my fuck. You know what I'm saying? Who just likes the laugh, who has a very dark sense of humor,

who really doesn't probably take as much things serious as I should. And it's actually fun to be in that face. Actually, on that note, you mentioned in the book that your anxiety is so bad. You said, I'm wearing a heart monitor right now while you were writing the book. I don't know if you're still doing that because I'm convinced I'm going to give myself a heart attack. You know that stress causes heart attacks, right? You always seem cool as a cucumber. You're kind of, you're fooling everyone, I suppose.

I don't know if it's fooling or if I had a little bit of sociopathic tendencies. Really? Yeah. You know, growing up, my favorite superhero was Wolverine. Like, I got a tattoo with Wolverine on my arm when I was like 18, 19 when, like, tattoos in South Carolina were illegal. And the thing I used to always like about... They were illegal? I didn't know.

It was crazy. They were illegal back then, back in that day. And it's like, I got that tattoo because I always liked Wolverine's loner mentality, but he could be a part of a team. if he wanted to, and I liked his healing powers. And I always thought to myself, like, man, that would be so cool. Like, I know healing powers are physical, but it would be so cool if just, like, emotionally and mentally you could just heal from everything that bothered you.

And I conditioned myself when I was very young to just not let things out of my control bother me and, you know, the serenity prayer, right? Like, God grabbing the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Like I always felt like I just stay focused. Whatever bad is happening to me in my life in this moment was just part of a process, right? That process is just helping me become who I'm supposed to be. I've always kind of had that mentality of like things aren't as bad as they seem to be or things aren't happening to you.

They're happening for you. Like I've always bought into all of that. So when you say I'm just cool as a cucumber, it's like whatever's going on in that moment, I'm going to deal with it. Yeah. Now, I might break down when I'm alone. Right? You know, whatever is happening to me in that moment, I'm going to deal with it. Man, when I was young, my anxiety used to be so bad that I would go hide in the woods for no reason.

I guess not for no reason, but, yeah, to be alone, right, to get away from stress? I would just be having these panic attacks. I didn't know what they were. I didn't know what a panic attack was until 2010, and I had gotten fired from radio for the fourth time. I was back living at home with my mother in Munk's Corner, South Carolina. I was like 31, 32. My daughter was like one or two years old, and I was collecting unemployment checks.

Oh, damn. And I was driving down I-26 in South Carolina, and you just get that feeling. Everything Eminem wrapped about don't lose yourself. Palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms spaghetti, like, you know, and then you got that crazy heartbeat, and you're like, you're taking deep breaths, you're pulling over to the gas station to drink water. You're like, God, if I'm, you know, about to have a heart attack, please just,

Let me get to the hospital. And so he goes to the doctor, and the doctor told me the same thing. He's always told me, like, your heart is fine. You got an athlete's heart. He literally said that to me, you got an athlete's heart. But then he said to me, he was like, you suffer from anxiety? I'm like, what is that?

And he's like, anxiety. It sounds like what you were describing was a panic attack. I'm like, I don't know what that is. And he was like, are you stressed out about anything? I'm like, hell yeah. What you talk about? I'm back living at home with my mom. I got fired four times.

You know, I'm collecting unemployment checks. I don't know what I'm going to do next with my life. I was up here in New York working with Wendy Williams and I had my own morning show in Philly. Now I'm back home living my mom. So I didn't know what was going on in my life at the time. So in my mind, I'm like, okay, so all I got to do is get another job,

get back in position, everything will be fine. Breakfast Club comes. December 2010, we started Breakfast Club later that year. Literally the last week I collected an unemployment check. I start on breakfast clubs next week. Literally, I had a year of unemployment because I've been fired four times and I had too much pride. My ego wouldn't allow me to go down to the unemployment office.

I see. So when I ended up getting fired for that fourth time, I had all of these years of back pay that I was able to get. So I was getting like $1,100 a week for like a whole, whole year. And literally that last week I ended up on Brooklyn's Club next week. But fast forward from 2010 to 2016, I'm having more success than I've ever experienced in my whole life,

more money than I've ever made in my whole life. And guess what? I'm not happy. Guess what? The bouts of depression are still there. So it turns out the money didn't. fix any of that. Turns out the success didn't fix in you of that, right? I had to do a lot of internal work. I just didn't like who I was. I didn't like who I was. I had a lot of unheeled

trauma that I didn't deal with. I was becoming my father and I love my father. I'm not sitting there acting like I don't love my father, but my father had a lot of bad habits and he had a lot of things that I didn't like, especially the way he treated my mom in regards to infidelity. And I was becoming that. I'm the hip-hop radio star, right? I remember there was a superstar comedian who shall remain nameless, who told me one time that all superheroes one day test out their superpowers, because you've never been in this version of yourself. I see. So I never had been that version of Charlamagne, who's getting write-ups in Rolling Stone magazine, who's making appearances on television. You got a New York Times bestselling book. It's like, okay,

I had never been that version of myself. You partaking in the lifestyle in a lot of ways, and I knew that lifestyle was ultimately going to cause me to lose my master. and caused me to lose the greatest things to me, which is my wife and my kids. So I had to go do some internal work as a man to say, I don't want to be that. And whatever it costs me in the future, meaning like, you know, whatever this new version of me that I pray emerges from this work that I'm going to do, whatever it costs me, I'm willing to let it go. And that's exactly what I did. I went out there and I did that work. And, you know, there was a lot of people who didn't like the change. They didn't like this new version. They didn't like me to

talking about therapy all the times. They still don't in a lot of ways. Really? Yeah. Who complains about it? I mean, not your friends. Nobody that matters? Nobody that matters, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Nobody that matters because what I'm doing now is actually my life's work. What I'm doing now actually gives me purpose. Now I know why I got this Wolverine tattoo on my arm when I was 18 years old. Now I know why I loved Wolverine's healing power because and Wolverine is holding a microphone in his hand on my arm as well too. So it's because I thought I was going to make it being a rapper. Oh, I thought maybe you added it later.

Like, all right, take the Boston into a mic. No, no, no, no, no. I got Wolverine holding a mic, because I thought I was going to make it as a rapper. Because when you're young, and you know, you growing up in the environment that I grew up in, the people you saw that was successful, especially when you're black,

were usually in entertainment are athletics. So I thought I was going to be a rapper because everybody was getting out of the hood at that point. And so I got Wolverine holding a mic in his hand. But it turned out it was these kind of microphones that I'm talking to now that changed my life, not rap because I sucked. And then the healing,

power was I put myself on a healing journey, started talking about that healing journey, which allowed other people to feel free enough to go on their own healing journeys as well. So I feel like my life work now, especially with my organization, my nonprofit to mental wealth alliance. My job is to help people, especially black people, black men in particular, get on their healing journey so we can show up and be the best versions of ourselves for our wives and our sisters and our daughters and our friends and family and just our communities, period. Now for a word. from our sponsors, including Kanye's Nazi T-shirt Emporium. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make this show possible. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor,

you can't find the code, email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're happy to surface codes for you. Yeah, it's that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Charlemagne the God. I remember you said multiple times to me in different conversations that mental health is not prioritized, is deprioritized in the black community. Like you've told me that a hundred times.

And you've said, in this, I love this line. You said, I knew I had to deal with my trauma or my trauma would deal with me. And I'm wondering how you see that show up with people, the trauma dealing with them, maybe even especially in the black community. That's all we're dealing with. Yeah. Like, we talked about Kanye at the beginning of this thing. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's good example.

That's all he's doing is trauma dumping. That's true. That's all people do. People project their pain onto others. Hurt people, hurt people, hurt people. Healed people, help other people heal. Like, it's really just that simple. Like, I can be having a conversation with somebody,

black, white, green, Puerto Rican, whatever. I can be having a conversation with them and know, oh, this don't got nothing to do with me. This person is just projecting all of their bullshit and all their unheeled trauma that they haven't dealt with onto me. I can hear

a person talking through their wounds. I can hear people talking through the filter of their unheeled trauma. In those moments, you really got to be real with a person and tell them, man, brother, I hope you heal. Because this don't got nothing to do with me. And I'm the person that'll tell them that.

Like, look, I know that this don't have nothing to do with me. So whatever it is that you're going through, whatever it is that you're dealing with, I really hope you heal from it. Because I don't think it's fair to go around projecting your bullshit on the other people. And some people don't even know

that they're dealing with B.S. They really don't know. It's pushed way down. They've suppressed it so much. There was so many things that I was dealing with that I didn't know I was dealing with. I thought it was just anxiety and bouts of depression, but then you go to therapy and you start peeling back all them layers. And you're like, oh, I thought I love my dad. I hate him.

You know what I mean? But I actually really don't hate him. I just hate that he used to discipline me for things that he never taught me. I hate that we didn't necessarily have the relationship that I wanted growing up. But it's because he had his own issues. And that was the beauty of me starting to tell my story. Because when I started to tell my story, it helped other people to tell that story. And that's what I always say, in order to eradicate the stigma around mental help, everybody got to tell their story.

2018, man, week of Thanksgiving. I'm home in Most Corner, South Carolina. My dad calls me. He just read my second book, which was called Shook One, Anxiety Playing Tricks on Me, which is literally just everything I was learning about myself in therapy. And I got clinical correlations from my man, Dr. Ish Major in there to talk. about those experiences to give the clinical aspect of those experiences I'm talking about. My dad says to me, yo, I read your book. And it was the same week that my cousin, who used to do a lot of odd jobs where my dad completed suicide. And so he was like,

your cousin completed suicide. And I read your book. And I just want you to know that I was going to therapy two and three times a week. And I was on 10 to 12 different medications throughout my life. And I tried to commit suicide 30 plus years ago, but I didn't because of you and your older sister. And I'm like, damn. And so that allowed me. And so that allowed me to give my dad so much grace. Because I'm like, yo, he's just a man who was dealing with his own issues and he was just trying to figure it out as well. So he couldn't necessarily be the father for me that he wanted to be because he wasn't

even being the man that he needed to be for himself. That allowed me to give him so much grace, man, and I have not thought anything negative about him since then. What I want to do, and I pray that I get to do this before, you know, either one of us transition because you never know nowadays is I just want to have that relationship and I want to learn more about my parents because your parents had a life before they were your parents. And like me and my dad just had a good conversation a couple weeks ago and I just learned so much and it helped me connect certain dots that's going on in my life because I'm like,

oh, that's why I like this place or that's why I gravitate towards these people because this is kind of like things my dad passed on ancestry, right? But I didn't realize. I see. You know? That's a huge awareness, especially getting that awareness for yourself and then having your own kids and break the cycle and don't pass that stuff along to your own kids. If you can pass on generational trauma, then you should definitely be able to pass on generational blessings. Yeah, you would hope so. You mentioned this a little bit.

You touched on this a little bit earlier. One of the first kinds of small talk you mentioned in the book is you mentioned hip-hop rappers talking about gangster stuff that they would never do in real life. What do you think of the influence on young guys and young girls actually that the hip-hop community has? Because from an outside perspective, it does seem dangerous to have role models that are like violence, drugs, crime, hoes, and you're just like, I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'm like, I don't know. I wouldn't want that to be my kid's role model. I don't think you're overthinking it, but, you know, it is nuanced. That's why, you know, in the chapter, you know, I talk about it. And I end every chapter by saying less discuss because I want to just open up the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying I'm wrong. Let's just open up the conversation. And so I think it is something to question. But I will say for every negative influence that hip-hop. has given me, it's given me the positive influence as well, but how many people are open to that level of balance?

How many people even get to that point where they get to an age where they're mature enough and emotionally intelligent enough to understand the nuances of what gangster rap is? Don't get me wrong, there's some of it that's just, there's no socially redeeming value to it. It is kill you, fuck your mama, you know, rob your granddad. It is really that, right? We do celebrate the drug culture and, you know, we do,

glorify the gang culture and a lot of the music. But, man, I think that people really are attracted to the entrepreneurial aspect of hip hop. And like I said earlier, when you are growing up in a certain environment, the only way out the hood it feels is to express yourself on these microphones. Like that is a talent that a large generation of people had. They expressed it and some great music did come out of it. But I think it is a fair conversation to have about is this a lifestyle or a death style? And I think that in a lot of ways If you're being honest

You've got to say a lot of it is a death style But there's rappers that have influenced me so positively Whether it's the Chuck D's or the killer mics Or the Wu-Tang clans You know what I mean? Even the people that you think are gangster Like the TIs and the GZs If you actually listen to their records

These guys come from certain environments And the art reflects the reality of their environment That's what they say art reflects life So you can't be mad at these individuals for talking about the things that are going on in their community. The problem I have with it is when you have these people who see the gangsters profiting, right? I see people profiting off of a life that they really did live, an environment they really did come from. But if you listen to their music, they're not necessarily glorifying it. They're just telling you what happened.

And they're also telling you the consequences of it. That's why Jay-Z was so dope. But Jay-Z had a song, you know, it was all good just a week ago. You know, one week you balling, next week you're getting hit with a recal charge because those are the consequences of that lifestyle. People that paint that whole picture in its totality, those are the great artists. The ones who are just trauma dumping and not even trauma dumping because they didn't even really live that shit. They're just doing it because it's profitable and they see it working for somebody else. So they're just making these murder, murder, kill, kill, slang dope records, but you never actually did that.

Yeah. You're just doing that because it's the hot thing to do at the moment. those are the people that I feel like, you know, we got to weed out of this culture. That's the vanilla ice method. Yeah, absolutely. I love what you said about the lack of preparation and podcasting. Most hosts, they don't prep it on. It drives me nuts.

It creates noise. It's something we have a lot of already. I love the upside of podcasting, though, man. No gatekeepers. You're talking one of your early books, put yourself on. Podcasting's like the peak of that. But it's sort of easy for me to say because you and I, we rise above the noise a little bit. We're not trying to start something right now.

But I love that you said that because I almost feel like podcasters get rewarded for not prepping and just saying the dumbest shit that comes into their brain. Well, that's our fault. Once again, it goes back to what is the consumer doing? Like when I talked about earlier about how you got to go out of your way to make sure you're watching the whole context of something, it's the same thing with what you choose to consume and share. Because somebody can get on a podcast and white women are better than black women or black women are better than black women and whatever. it is and people will just take that clip and throw it online and I say this all the time. There is an economy that has been created and that economy is engagement through enraged. So people literally make money off you being enraged.

Yeah, yeah. They know that shit is stupid, but they don't care. They just want to get y'all going back and forth, arguing with each other, debating with each other and we're online, spending two or three days discussing or debating something that don't even make no motherfucking sense. They know that. Those are the type of podcasts I don't necessarily like.

I like podcasters who I listen to and actually learn something. Or I'm just extremely entertained. And the people who are the great ones are the ones that can do both. I love listening to the weekly show with John Stewart. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I love listening to podcasts like the 85 South show. You know, I love listening to like the pivot, you know, podcast, and Ryan Clark and Fred. No, oh, wait, it's two pivots. You're talking about one with K. You're talking about Kara Swisher.

I was a little surprised. I was like Kara Swisha fans. I like Kara too, too. I've been on that part. I like Karen Scott, but I was talking about Ryan Clark and Fred Taylor and Channing Crada. Only because these people are entertaining, but also the things they talk about have so much socially redeeming value.

Yeah. You know, like you're going to be intellectually stimulated. Like my guy Andrew Shultz was flagrant, like him and Akash and Mark Gaginon and Alex. They're funny, but yo, they can sit there and kick it with Pete Buttigieg for two and a half hours. And it can be some really good gyms in there. You know, they can sit there with Trump for a couple hours and it's entertaining,

but it's also some gyms in there because they're challenging Trump. You know, but you've got to watch the whole interview. You know that. You know, you just watch the clips. You just think they're laughing and joking and keep – but if you watch the interview, you're like, they are challenging Trump on some things. Yeah, the beauty of podcasting is the people who take it serious. And I do think that there's got to be some guidelines, Jordan.

I'm a guy who has to deal with FCC rules and regulations every morning. I feel like with the way the podcasting industry is, everybody else should have to deal with that too. YouTube should have to deal with that. If YouTube is going to be operating as some sort of news network, because there actually are news networks on there now, whether it's the Midas Touch, whether it's the Young Turks, whether it's the PPDs. These people are operating as news network. They are, yeah. They should have to deal with the same FCC rules and regulations that we do. Yeah, I tend to agree. I mean, I know we have to do it when we do ads. You know, we can't pretend that we didn't get money for something. But I love free speech, but

telling people blatant falsehoods to piss them off and make them make, let's say, a bad medical decision is just beyond the pale. It's bad for society. We mentioned Ryan Holiday, who's a good friend of mine. Love Ryan. Love that guy. Super smart dude and a good person. You've had some large personal ego battles, and you touched on this a little bit before, but you mentioned a concept called ego strength that I'd love to discuss. Tell me what that is. Ego scrimp is when you have to lean into your ego for good. Like, ego can be good. Ego can be bad, but sometimes you have to have just a tad bit of the right ego. I think ego is a problem. when it's a wounded ego. I think what we see a lot of times when I hate to go back to Kanye,

but I think a lot of that is wounded ego. I think that, you know, the ego that was good. Like when you read ego as the enemy, the thing I like about ego is the enemy, ego is the enemy is broken up into three parts. It's that level of ego that fuels your confidence that lets you know you have a talent and you feel like that talent can help you get to that next level of life. Nobody can tell you that you're not talented. Nobody can tell you that what you're doing isn't the right thing to do. You just believe in yourself that much. That good ego propels you to that next level, which helps you to get success. But when you go from the ambitious part, that's the first part, to the success part, that's when you really start to see what kind of demon

ego can be, especially if you have a wounded ego, especially if you've, got a lot of trauma that you haven't dealt with because success, money doesn't change you. It just amplifies whatever you are. Yeah, who you are already. Yeah. Scary. So if you already are hurt my, you're just going to be more of a hurt my fucking, right? And so then if you don't deal with that ego, if you don't read books like Ryan Holiday,

ego is the enemy and you don't learn from other people whose ego has destroyed them, that talent will take you where your character can't sustain you. And then that's when the third part comes, right? It's ambition, success, and then it's the failure. Because the failure can come because you didn't get your ego tamed, because you didn't heal the wounds that exist in that ego. And that is what causes people to ultimately crash and burn. It's tough, and I can relate.

You ever still get imposter syndrome? I don't anymore. No? And I'll tell you when I got to a place of Worby. I got to a place of Warby December of 2021. Wow. Okay, so 11 years after the Breakfast Club starts. Yeah. It might have been even December of 2022, but I remember exactly where I was. I was sitting in a chair in my old house and I was sitting upstairs and I literally just got hit with worthiness. I literally got hit with a sense of worthy.

And a sense of worthy is something that I had been dealing with for a long time because of imposter syndrome. I had a great conversation with Bishop TD Jakes one time in his public so I don't mind saying it. And he said to me, even if you don't think you're worthy, just not. know that God knows your world. And then we have some other conversations, you know, around imposter syndrome and why some of us have imposter syndrome. It literally just hit me in that moment. I'm like, yo, thank you, God. I'm in this position that I'm in because this is the position that God wants me to be in. And not just even professionally. I am a husband to this beautiful wife and a father to these beautiful kids because God feels like I'm worthy to be that for them. It just all clicked for me in that

moment and I have not dealt with imposter syndrome since then. But also it's because I also feel like I'm walking in my purpose too, Jordan. I'm walking in my purpose. Like I'm not just doing radio and doing TV and the podcast and the books and getting into the film world just for my own ego. Like I'm really of service. I really truly feel like that. I feel like, you know, the work I do with the mental wealth alliance are when I'm able to provide scholarships for HBCU students, I'm able to provide jobs because, you know, me and my wife invested. and then Crystal's franchises. Like our, but all, the hamburger spot down south.

Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, yeah. I think I've seen that. So, but it's not even just that. It's like the Black Effect Podcast Network, you know, the company me and Kevin Hart have. We're able to employ people and provide jobs. So not only am I doing what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing, walking in my purpose, helping people heal because I'm telling my story about healing, but also I'm able to provide

opportunity and jobs for folks who may not necessarily get those opportunities anywhere else. So I feel like I'm really walking in my purpose and I'm doing exactly what God wants me to do. So therefore, I don't have no imposter syndrome from that because I'm doing what I know God wants me to do. So if you're in the place that God wants you to be, how could you ever feel like an imposter? Man, thank you for being so open. Thank you, brother. I love doing this part, man. We can't go so long without doing it.

Yeah, I appreciate that. I think it's admirable. You wear a lot of this stuff on your seat. leave and you're open about it, it'd be easier for you in some ways if you hit it all, but you don't choose that easy road because I think you know that the best road is the one that you're taking, like the most appropriate one. And I'm too dumb to hide it. Yeah, I get that. I mean, that's the reality of situation. I'm too dumb to cover it up. What else would I have to talk about? Yeah. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you. Here's a trailer of our interview with

Moby, iconic musician and producer. This was a super real conversation. about creativity, fame, mental health, money, and what really makes people happy and fulfilled. Moby was really open with this one, and even if you're not a fan of the music, I guarantee you will dig this episode. I grew up in arguably the wealthiest town in the United States, Dary Ann, Connecticut, but my mom and I were on food stamps and welfare. My first punk rock show was to an audience of one dog, and my first electronic music show was to Miles Davis.

I wanted to stop the show and patiently explained to the movie stars and the beautiful people that they'd made a mistake. They were celebrating me, but I was in nothing. I was a kid from Connecticut who wore secondhand clothes in the front seat of his mom's car while she cried and tried to figure out where she could borrow money to buy groceries. Now it was 1999. I was an insecure husband, but we kept playing and the celebrities kept dancing and cheering. The weird thing is things started to go wrong when I stopped feeling that way. In 1999, I thought that my career had ended. Yeah. My mom had died of cancer. I was battling substance abuse problems. I was battling panic attacks. I had lost my record deal. And I was making this one last album. I was like,

okay, I'll make this album, I'll put it out, I'll move back to Connecticut, I'll get a job teaching philosophy at some community college, and then all of a sudden, the world embraced me. I handled fame and wealth really disastrously. I was a sudden. I was a sudden. I was a sudden. I was, I was I handled fame and wealth really disastrously. It was so humiliating. I wouldn't trade any of it. For more from Moby, including how he bounced back from a 400 drink per month booze habit.

Check out episode 196 of the Jordan Harbinger show. I always love talking to Charlemagne. This is like his third time on the show. Smart dude, deep thinker and funny. And I think y'all probably noticed that by now. there was something he said offline after the show that I thought was quite insightful. He said, when you're poor and you're living at home and you aren't on an upward trajectory, you have a reason to be depressed that you can point to.

But if you think you have it all and you're supposed to be happy, like you're wealthy and you're famous or whatever it is, but then you're still not happy, that is a lot more alarming. And you can't heal what you don't reveal. So he's a big, big proponent of therapy. As you know, BetterHelp is one of our main sponsors, BetterHelp.com slash Jordan. So if you are looking to reveal things so you can heal them, definitely support the sponsors that support the show, including better help. All things Charlemagne the God will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, and discount codes, ways to support the show.

All at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, is very practical, very specific, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions and psychology, your relationships, in under two minutes. We write it almost every Wednesday. If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show. A lot of you hit reply and talk to me. I really enjoy that.

Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six-minute networking as well over at six-minute networking. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And this show has created an association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogartie, Tadasidlowskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

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definitely share this episode with them, or maybe they're just a Charlemagne fan. Go ahead and share it. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast.

Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know, with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way.

Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something You Should Know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.