The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1228: You Cut and Run but Parents Treat Ex like a Son | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

He chose beer and coworkers over you. You chose yourself and left. Now your own parents roll out the red carpet for him. It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1228On This Week's Feedback Friday:Gabe went on his own 16-hour dooze cruise across the Baltic Sea instead of taking a one-hour flight from Helsinki to Stockholm. Was sailing his way through the salty sea spray worth its trouble? You can opt to hear all about it or skip ahead to around eight minutes and 30 seconds [00:08:30] if you're one of those kinds of listeners!You left your neglectful ex who prioritized drinking with buddies over parenting, moved on to a healthy relationship, and found happiness. But now your parents have sided with your ex — hosting him, lending him their car, even hanging out with him. Why would they betray you like this?You've maintained a 25-year friendship with someone who dominates conversations, rarely asks about you, and treats service workers rudely. After she experienced a devastating loss, her behavior toward you worsened. How much bad treatment should you tolerate in the name of grief and loyalty?You've spent 15 years in the trades making low six figures, but it was never your dream — just a backup plan. Now your income can't keep up with rising costs, your wife stays home with three kids, and you're eyeing a career change that pays less and might not suit you. Should you leap or stay put?Recommendation of the Week: Swanwick Blue-Light-Blocking Glasses (10% off here)!You're 17, itching to see the world beyond your medium-sized hometown, inspired by travel stories that make you want to backpack and grow through discomfort. But everyone's pushing you to apply to colleges now. Should you travel before college or after? Does the order even matter, or will waiting mean missing the window?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: DeleteMe: 20% off: joindeleteme.com/jordan, code JORDANHexClad: 10% off: hexclad.com/jordanSimpliSafe Home Security: 50% off + 1st month free: simplisafe.com/jordanHomes.com: Find your home: homes.comBetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordanSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, Little Gabe on the Prairie, flitting about like a Finnish ferry, before he crosses the Baltic on a ferry, Gabriel Mizrahi. Wow, bravo. That was some of your finest work, dude. I mean, that one wrote itself. Honestly, that was just a little alley-oop on your increasingly zany life choices. Let's explain in a second. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills are the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your... life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, and during the week we have long-formed conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former jihadis, drug traffickers, astronauts, legendary Hollywood actors. This week we had Jimmy Kimmel. Well, James Kimmel on the Science of Revenge and Kashmir Hill on AI chatbots

driving people, literally driving people insane. We also released a bonus episode, which was really Feedback Friday from last week. We re-released that because of an air. So if you didn't hear Feedback Friday last week. Now it's the bonus episode from Wednesday. Sorry for the confusion, folks. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, penis size. No need to dwell on that one. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and keep up with Gabe across various modes of increasingly ridiculous transport. Hello, producer Jay's here. If you'd like to skip Jordan and Gabe's pre-ramble here and move swiftly to the first question, that's totally possible. I'd suggest you

stick around because it's a really fun story. But if you do want to skip to the first question, you can do so by skipping to 8 minutes and 30 seconds. Give our take if you ordered advert at the top of the show. So just to explain today's nickname, you're recording this episode in Stockholm today. Yeah, I'm in Stockholm. That's right. I took the boat here from Helsinki, which I think is what you're referring to. But I did not know what I was getting into when I booked this boat. I swear, every time I look at your Instagram, I start cracking up because you're always involved in some bizarre new caper. I'm honestly not trying to be this zany. I'm just trying to get from A to B and weird shit keeps happening. It's like the equivalent of, I need to get across the room. I'm going to walk in

my hands to get there. Like, no, no, no, I need to. Last week, you're hippie grandpa Gabe rocking out with your wool socks with reindeer around him, sitting in a sauna with a bunch of hippie, Dave Matthews band Vikings. This week, you're boarding a cruise ship. None of it makes any sense. There's no co-heed. There's no through line. Let me explain. So you can fly from Helsinki to Stockholm. Obviously, it takes like an hour. But someone told me that there's also a boat you can take, and it takes 16 hours to get there. But you board this boat, you hang out, you go to sleep, and you wake up in Stockholm. And it's supposed to be really fun.

And it's kind of a rite of passage for Finnish and Swedish kids, apparently. It's kind of like a booze cruise situation a little bit. A booze cruise or a dews cruise. A booze cruise cruise. Yeah, like get crunked and they go to like the other country. So my friend Johan, obviously from Sweden, told me about these in the 90s. He's like, man, if you come visit. at me, we got to take this, it's something to do with taxes. Like, it's alcohol is so damn expensive in,

I think, Finland that Swedish prices are cheaper by comparison, or maybe it's the other way around, I can't remember. So it's like, you go there and it's like half off booze, and it's just, you can finally afford to get drunk, and it's all teenagers doing that. So I'm too old for that, basically. Well, not me, apparently. Not you. I'm just the right age for this shit. I don't know. Yes. Look, it's only $100. So that's also part of the appeal. And then this way, I didn't have to pay another $100 to $150 for my overpriced princess suitcase at the airport, which is getting heavier by the country. So that was another plus. That's right. A cheap ride to Stockholm, a funny story and no gate agent making fun of you for packing six pairs of Lulu Lemon yoga shorts.

Exactly. Sounds like a good deal to me. But in my mind, I was picture, I don't know why I thought this, but I was picturing some kind of like very no frills fairy. I was picturing, you know, like a beat up two-story boat, the kind of boat you take to Staten Island or whatever. to the Statue of Liberty and has like one bar where a bunch of Nordic backpackers are getting drunk and a bartender is going to like, I'll make you a sandwich if you want or whatever. And the rooms are like prison cells and you get a cot if you're lucky. I was picturing a floating flop house based on the stories people told me. And then I get to the terminal and there's a massive cruise ship docked in the harbor. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is a literal cruise. That actually makes sense

because we are crossing the Baltic Sea for 16 hours, obviously. I'm an idiot. I don't know why I thought it was going to be anything else. Yeah, you're walking up to the check-in lady like, hey, checking in for the 12-person catamaran in the Stockholm, please, on what are the world's world's dangerous oceans? I was like, excuse me, could you point me to the pontoon that will be taking me across the open seas? I don't know what I was thinking. I was ready to grab some oars and pitch in if they want to be to. Yeah. No, I saw a Tommy Hilfiger store in a wine bar in one of your photos.

And that boat was not giving Nordic ferry. That boat was giving Royal Caribbean cruise in an archipelago. More like Princess cruises. Right, with this luggage? With that luggage, yeah. I'm surprised the cruise stayed afloat with that suitcase on there. Halfway to Stockholm, I just threw my homemade deodorant overboard just to help out because those jars are, they're not light.

So no drunk Swedes, but did anything weird happen? Not really. It was extremely normal and very mainstream. It was not at all what I expected. Honestly, the weirdest thing that happened on the boat was probably me doing Zoom therapy at 9 p.m. from my room. Yeah, you did a session on a Nordic booze cruise that's so unbrand. That must have been a first.

for your therapist, like, where are you right now? Mur, mur, I'm just leaving Helsinki. I'm three stories below deck doing my Zoom therapy. She literally asked me, she's like, where exactly are you? I want to see it on the map. And I was like, well, we left two hours ago

from port, so that probably puts us just off the coast of this weird island that might or might not have inhabitants. Anyway, I'm in the middle of the Baltic Sea. Let's talk about my childhood. Yeah, let's talk about the Russian nuclear submarine that's below the boat. You ever get satellite internet so strong

you heal your childhood trauma. What do we call that? Scarlink. Oh, nice. Scarlink, yes. The other funny thing was that the ocean was really rough and the ship was rocking. I mean, the ship is massive,

but it was still rocking a lot. And so the whole session, I was kind of like swaying back and forth and trying not to get dizzy. And my therapist was like, are you seasick or are you like dissociating? What is happening? Yeah, it's called self-soothing.

I learned it at my interpretive dance workshop. Dude, I'm giving you so much new material. You're still feasting at the day. dance workshop buffet. You can't stop. Anyway, I've been dizzy literally ever since I got off this boat. It's been two days in Stockholm. The room is still spinning. I've never had this before. That's awful. Sometimes it takes a few days to pass. So what are you doing in Stockholm? I'm visiting an old friend of mine. His name is Victor. He was my roommate for a few months in college. I did a program in Washington, D.C. where you go to D.C. for a semester. You intern at a

place. I interned at a think tank. Do you remember I told you about that class I took with a political speechwriter? Yeah. Yeah. That was during that. that time. And anyway, this guy and I lived together in an apartment and we also ended up interning at the same think tank. And we could not be more opposites. Like, this guy was, when I met him, he was like the definition of the weird bon vivant guy you meet in a hostel. And now he's like one of the top economists in Stockholm. It's so funny. But yeah, he moved back to Stockholm. We stayed in touch over the last 15 years. He's one of the few people I keep up like an ongoing correspondence with, which has been so

lovely. And in the meantime, he's gone married, he's had two kids. He almost died a couple times this guy, which is so crazy. He's okay now. And now I'm sleeping on the floor in his dining room and hanging out with him and his kids. And it's just been really cool. Sounds like a downgrade from the cruise ship, to be honest, but that's very sweet. I'm just happy to have a place to sleep in an actual home. I think these travels, I've been having a great time, as you know, last week was bizarre and funny as hell, but these travels really caught up with me on the boat. I just hit a wall with all of them moving around and changing cities and dragging the suitcases and all of it. And I find myself feeling homesick for the first time, really homesick on this trip.

And I have a little bit of a cold, as you can probably tell. I just got sick. I'm so tired. Yeah. I can't stop sleeping. I just feel like I have mono or something, but like mono in my soul. Yeah, that'll happen. It takes a lot out of you, this lifestyle. I don't know how you're doing it, especially with all those bags. Yeah, I just got to rest, I think. It's nice to be in an old friend's home in a beautiful city. I have a whole new appreciation for like, you know, sitting down at a dinner table with people you know for years and having a soft landing. It's really nice. You know what else is rejuvenating? Diving into some fun ones and doozies. That's right. Bingo. Let's guide this doze cruise out into the archipelago of WTF, shall we?

Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Five years ago, I had a wonderful child with a not-so-great man. The short version of our story is us moving continents so that he could drink copious amounts of, beer with his buddies while I took care of our child and him going to work early to hang out with a female co-worker. It was incredibly lonely and I felt like a single parent. That is rough. I'm sorry. I didn't share any details about my relationship with my parents, which might be due to my mom over involving us in my father's extramarital affairs when I was young. Picture my siblings and me

at six years old sitting in on a conference call as my dad told his mistress that it was over. Wow, that's wild. So like her mom made her dad do it in front of the kids. What a formative scene that is, eh? But to what? Put pressure on him? What the hell? I can't follow this logic. This is terrible parenting. Maybe to show the kids that dad is really committed to them and he's done with this other woman. Either way, not appropriate. No, not appropriate at all. I am very sorry your parents handled things this way on so many levels. Geez, what was she thinking? My parents also left me as a 10-year-old and my sister as a 12-year-old alone each year for one month. so they could travel to Asia, left us totally alone. My sister took care of me.

I think this would be frowned upon now. Yeah, frowned upon is an understatement. I'm pretty sure this is illegal in many states, actually. CPS would be the one doing the frowning, I think. Yes. More like the grimacing. That's rough. How can people do this?

Just leave your 10 and 12 year old alone so you and your cheating husband can hit the horse races in Bangkok together for a month each year? That's what they were doing, right? There's no world where they were like, There was like the more noble reason for that trip. Like, sorry, guys, you got to take care of each other while we go to or anchor watt or something. No, they're like being, I don't know, there's other things you could do that are even worse. But something tells me these neglectful parents were not ditching their kids to go chant with monks.

They were going to party and ride their moped home drunk from the lady boy karaoke bar. You're probably right, getting crunked in Kuala Lumpur, more like. Shwasted in Shanghai, exactly. Nice. Again, I'm really sorry your parents raised you guys this way. This is really sad. your mother and father were not good parents. I can confidently say that a childhood like this has got to leave a mark, and I assume that's in the background of this letter.

I left the father of my child almost two years ago. It's been an amazing change in my life. I'm now with a man who wants to be a father to my son. He loves doing family things. He's a master communicator, and we talk through issues without the world falling apart. We come out of things stronger. This might be the first healthy relationship I've ever been in. Wow. Awesome to hear. They're very happy for you. It sounds like you're doing things much differently this time. Yeah. Good on you. But instead of being happy for my family, my parents have decided to fully support my ex. He lives at their house when he comes over from Europe, uses their car, stuff like that. My mom and my ex even dropped our kid off with me so that they could hang out together for the evening before my ex was leaving for five weeks. Five weeks away from your kid and you want to hang out with my mom? Strange. She also found him as lawyer.

and I think she might be paying for him. Meanwhile, my ex didn't like my mom and dad much before we split up. I'm guessing those two facts are related somehow. Clearly, yeah. This is so bizarre, Gabe. Either her parents are truly the worst or there's something our friend here isn't sharing with us that would possibly cause these parents to remain loyal to him? I don't know what that could possibly be.

I don't know. Like her parents are not fully on our side for some legitimate reason? I think we have to acknowledge the possibility because we're only hearing one side of the story, but I don't know. I mean... Even if there are some other facts, this is still very weird, right? Yeah, there's kind of no set of facts where this is not bizarre. To choose to hang out with your daughter's ex after they split up because you were drinking and carrying on with a co-worker, even if she somehow contributed to the marriage problems too in some way, which we don't know about,

and not explaining to her why they're still supportive of him, it's just weird. And the whole dropping the kid off to hang out with your mom alone, my gross, perverted speculative mind goes in all kinds of places that don't make sense. I was wondering if that's what you were just wondering because I saw you working through that as I was reading. It's just none of it makes sense. What can you not bring your son to when you're hanging out with your mother-in-law? That's a good point. And even if it's not the worst thing you're imagining, are they lighten up a spliff together and hanging out?

Like, what's, it's weird? Getting drunk together at the very least. It's just, the whole thing is so freaking weird. But here's another angle. She said, I didn't share any details about my relationship with my parents because of this whole problem with their parents and how they raised her, right? But so her parents don't know what he did. So maybe they don't have the information they need to know that they should,

shouldn't be taking aside. But all this would still fit with their overall style of parenting, wouldn't it? I mean, again, maybe she's not telling us everything, but I want to believe that if they were like, look, we're sorry about your marriage, but we still love Dan, we still want to have a relationship with him. Is there a way to do that without hurting you? I want to believe she would have told us that? And that still doesn't change the fact that they're weirdly helping her ex find an attorney, which could hurt their own daughter somehow. And possibly paying for it. I'm just very confused by all of this. Anyway, carry on. So I told my mom that I don't want a relationship with her because it's too hurtful. I said I'll be nice at family events and she can see our kid.

My dad and I have more of a relationship, but it's also weird. Now they're offering me a lot of money to help me through a tough time. I told them they can use it to pay my ex off if they want, but otherwise, I'm fine. I'm now getting a ton of pressure to resolve this conflict from other members in my family. There's a lot of talk of healing and forgiveness, which makes me want to run for the hills. I'm getting peace from distance and tight boundaries, and I'm not ready to come back into the fold. but it's tough because my kid gets so much out of being with his cousins, and it's a ton of drama for my partner,

and I want to make sure I'm spending more time having meaningful experiences with him than dealing with these icky feelings about my parents. I feel like my child deserves a relationship with them too, but it comes with a heavy price. I go to therapy, and I'm exploring all the fun facets of my past and present. I have my child in therapy too, and it's been really good for him. That's great news. Really happy to hear all this.

Now we get to skip the part where we make a bunch of people on Reddit angry that our advice is always go to therapy. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for doing that for us. Although I will say, if you ever need it to hit a little bit harder, just take your session on a cruise on the Baltic Sea. That's right. Just make sure you guys are all paid up on your Skirling.

So the letter goes on. How do I keep being involved with the extended family when I'm getting so much pressure? And why do screwed up families keep on making you pay the price? Signed, looking for new defenses and wondering what the sense is in mending these hurtful fences. Fugh, what a story. What a family. What a question. Why do dysfunctional families keep dysfunctioning?

Yeah, just another garden variety question here. No big deal. We got this. So, first of all, as you can tell, we're pretty horrified by a lot of these details you've shared. I'm very sorry that you had these parents as well growing up. I know we don't have all the info here. I'm just sad and confused by all this. I can only imagine what these parents must bring up for you. And I'm also sorry that your extended family is pressuring you to resolve a conflict with your family that is frankly none of their freaking business. or at least very little of their business, Gabriel always amazes me.

Somebody gets one side of part of a story, right? From like one family member, and they're like, let me call and just involve myself in this situation because clearly you're telling me all of the relevant details and not leaving out anything. It's just absolutely ridiculous. What goes on between you and your parents, even if I weren't on your side,

it's between you and your parents. If other people and your family want to help guide you through it, if they want to maybe offer to mediate or help you heal some rifts, fine, that's one thing. Although it's still up to you to decide if you want them involved, but for them to be pressuring you to heal and forgive, if that is, in fact, what they're doing without appreciating the nuances and history and difficulties of this relationship with your parents, and also not even bothering to get your side of it. I can understand why that's incredibly frustrating. I don't think I could hold my tongue, if this were me. I'm very interested in the dilemma that she's in

because she's created a tricky situation by being able to tolerate this relationship with her family. Like many people with this kind of background, this childhood, probably would not even want to have a relationship or let their kid be around these kind of parents. But what she's doing is she's saying, okay, we're going to be involved with each other and you can be part of our lives. But I'm also going to protect myself. But then in the process, she's also still exposed to a lot of painful things from her parents and from her ex as well. And so in a way, it's interesting. She's kind of a victim of her own evolution. Exactly.

Another person in her shoes might not even have a relationship with their friends. family. Yeah. So they'd maybe be at more peace, frankly, and they'd also be, of course, missing out on some of the upside. I guess I just want to give her props for that, because it does take a lot of strength to be able to enforce these boundaries in order to have a safe relationship with this family. In a way, it's easier than just cutting them off or staying away completely, but in another way, it's actually harder. I also want to give you props for balancing your own needs with those of your partner and your child. You're doing so much right here, but yeah, not easy. So your question is, how do you keep being involved with your extended family when you're getting so much pressure from them to heal and forgive?

I think you need to accept that still having contact with your family is going to bring up some difficult conversations and feelings for a while, maybe forever. Like we just said, if you refuse to have any contact with them whatsoever, you wouldn't have to deal with this pressure at all. But then you'd have to pay the price in other ways, like your son not having his cousins or grandparents in his life. So as long as you're willing to play in this boundary territory with them in order to enjoy certain benefits, which it sounds like you have some good reasons to do, but that's something you can reassess every now and again. If you're going to have contact with them, you're going to have to build up a few other muscles. One of those muscles is the ability to withstand your extended family's differing opinions.

Another muscle is the ability to say, I appreciate that you want me to move on, repair things with my mom and dad, but that's between me and my parents. So I'm going to kindly ask you one time to not pressure me to handle, this the way that you want me to. That's the politest way you can handle it. I'll leave it up to you. Or to look at this another way, maybe the muscle you need to build is the ability to go to your parents and say, I am mystified and hurt by how much you're supporting my ex, given how everything played out. And if we're going to fix things between us, I need you to help me

understand why you're supporting a guy who hurt me in this way and that way. And I'd like to ask you why you'd rather support me financially than emotionally. And then just try to really have that conversation with them, if they're even able to have it. And if they're not able to have it, then maybe the muscle to build is starting to share some of these facts with them that you haven't shared with them. I know you have some good reasons to not share everything with them. It sounds like they're not the safest parents, so you just haven't wanted them to know all these details. But it is, again, an interesting dilemma that you're in because you want them to be on your side, but they don't have all the information about your life to know that they probably shouldn't be supporting this party. But also, another muscle might be the capacity to bear your anger with them.

your sadness about all this, your frustration about your ex, even the vulnerability in sharing some of the facts about your marriage with them, which you haven't done up until now, knowing that there is no easy fix here, and then maybe find ways to let some of their difficult stuff roll off your back when you do have contact with them. Which is a tough muscle to build, right? Because it almost feels like giving up and just taking all this on the chin. But there's a version of this that's more like giving up, and there's a version of this that's more like Zen acceptance. Yes, that's the version I think she needs to do.

develop, along with probably just a lot of deep breathing. Do some yoga. A lot of deep breathing at Thanksgiving dinner for sure. It's going to be a practice. How much of this pressure and insensitivity can I recognize, feel, and just dodge whatever the emotional version of Tai Chi is. That's what she's got to do. So about your more philosophical question here, why do screwed up families keep on making you pay the price? Can't wait to dig into this one. Because they're screwed up, I guess. They don't know another way. And for them to say, yeah, we're not going to keep making you pay the price. they would have to acknowledge that they are making you pay the price, and that would require them to acknowledge a lot of very difficult stuff

that has played out for many, many years. And I have to imagine that if they were the kind of people who could do that, then they wouldn't be your parents. Yeah, that wouldn't be your family. You'd have a different family. Congratulations. And then they would not have done all of this painful stuff in the first place. Exactly.

Even her question seems to imply that they're doing all this stuff consciously. Candidly, I think the more likely scenario is that they're just doing whatever they want to do and not thinking about what it means for anyone else. I agree with that, but I just have to say one more time, and I really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but she's saying, why do they keep making you pay the price? But she's also not telling them everything they need to know in order to maybe treat her as well as they could.

And that's just something that I do think she needs to look at. But look, the philosophical question is very interesting, but there might be a more helpful version of it, which is why do I feel like I keep paying the price for my family's actions? And how can I try to shift that dynamic, or at least change the effect a little bit? Yes, more practical. Because like crazy family's going crazy.

But when they won't change, you can find a new way with them. Or you can find a new way with yourself, a new way of taking care of yourself, when they aren't particularly on your side or attuned to you. That's right. Her job now, especially if she's in the right here, but even if she weren't totally in the right somehow, her job now is to find a way to not let her family hurt her so much. I don't mean to say it's her fault. I'm pretty sure it's not.

But if they're not going to change, I agree she has to change. And framing the problem as why do they keep making me pay the price? I mean, fair question, kind of, but that might inadvertently be disempowering her because it's putting the onus on them to change in all the ways that she wants when she can also change in a couple ways. Then that means building those muscles we were just talking about. It means building those muscles and it also means regularly re-evaluating how much contact she wants to have with them, how often she sees them, how much time she spends with them each time, all of that, but mostly how her relationship with them allows her parents to get in somehow, to get under her skin, which becomes a question not just of these external

boundaries, but those subtler internal ones that we talk about all the time. I think the next area she needs to explore, and this is such a great thing to do in therapy on a boat or otherwise, is what parts of her are still quite vulnerable to her parents. I think some very old parts of her that have not been totally addressed based on the childhood that we got a glimpse of. And also what process takes place inside of her when they do and say these things that end up hurting her. I believe her when she says they're making her pay the price, but the actual process of how that happens to a person, it's always more complicated, right? They do a thing that lands with her in a certain way. It connects up with what happened in her marriage, her childhood. It taps into years of trauma from her parents. It's informed by her own needs and tender spots and, you know, dot-to-dot pain.

She might not have much control over how her family treats her, but she does have control over how that lands with her and how this pain develops and ultimately how bad it gets. So I'm thrilled that you're working with a therapist. I'm happy your son has that support too, and my wish for you is to meet this ongoing challenge with your parents and your relatives with as much curiosity as possible and as much courage as possible to learn and adapt and try things with them

in a new way and just see what happens. I'm sorry your parents have created all this pain. I'm sorry your ex-handled things this way, but there's a lot of good stuff here from your new partner to your son's well-being to this opportunity to grow some parts of you. And that's the one big upside to all of this. sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best.

You know, it's a great gift with which to shower your daughter's cheating, neglectful ex-husband? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I have a friend I've known for nearly 25 years. We socialized often, I valued her humor and energy, and in the early years, I would include her family and holidays together. But since the beginning, I noticed the relationship was mostly one-sided. She tends to dominate conversations, rarely asks about me, and can be rude, not just to me, but to waiters, salespeople, and so on. That's one of the most common red flags ever, rude to waiters and service people. I tried to overlook this and remain a supportive friend.

Then, a few years ago, she suffered the tragic loss of her son. I felt for her deeply and wanted to be there for her. Yeah, that's so sad. Very kind of you to support her through that. But even through that period, her behavior often left me feeling drained and unappreciated. Shortly before she lost her son, an incident involving my son, along with hurtful comments she made to me directly, pushed me to question whether I could continue the friendship at all. These feelings really bubbled up after my mom passed away earlier this year.

Man, I'm sorry to hear about your mom. That's got to be a big transition. So fascinating how a death can kind of snap things into focus in every other part of your life, you know? Especially a parent, I'd imagine. So I'm going to guess that losing her mom made her realize what's actually important in life. She probably didn't get the same level of support from this woman that she had offered her. And at a certain point, she's just like, yeah, this is bullshit. This friendship doesn't make any sense.

That's probably the shape of it. Yeah. So she goes on, I feel torn. On one hand, I don't want to abandon someone who has gone through such profound grief. On the other hand, I recognize that the relationship hasn't been healthy for me for a long time. When we spoke a couple months ago, I mentioned that I'd like to meet to talk about some things that were weighing heavily on my heart. We're supposedly going to meet sometime next month. That was her timeline. If we do meet, how do I approach her? And what should I say? Signed, finding this treatment disconcerting and done with all the skirting, even though my friend is still

hurting. Good question. So obviously, I'm very sorry that your friend has treated you poorly for so long that her behavior has hurt you in all these ways. Everything you've shared suggests that this is a very challenging friend to have. Challenging is such a polite word for what this is. You know me. People say Jordan's 2PC, it's true. When we do premium content, I swear I'm just going to unplug. I'm going to pop off. Anyway, yes, challenging, problematic. And candidly, she's lucky that you've put up with her bullshit for so long. How's that? There it is.

I like that. That was for a second. I was like, where's my cause? Yeah. Look, my heart goes out to this woman for losing her son. That's a tragedy no matter who it's happening to. That's the kind of thing you don't wish on your worst enemy, and I'm sure it's been very hard for her.

So I admire your willingness to tell your friend how she's impacted you. That takes a lot of vulnerability. It takes a lot of courage. And I would understand if you didn't want to have this conversation and just wanted to quietly part ways, which, by the way, totally an option. I don't know how much you owe somebody who's behaved this way slash, I don't know how much capacity she even has to appreciate what your experience has been like. Just given the narcissistic and hurtful tendencies you described, but the fact that you're willing to tell her some difficult things, I commend you for that.

I'm sure it'll also be important for a friend here to say those things out loud to this woman, you know, just like for her own reasons, for her own closure. Sure, some of us need that. look, even if this woman can't take them in and they're going to go their separate ways, I imagine it would be pretty cathartic to say, yeah, so you hurt me and this and that way, and it's not cool. I just got to say, I do find it interesting that she told this friend a couple months ago that she wanted to share some things that were weighing heavily on her, and her friend was like, okay, let's talk in the fall.

That's good for me. That kind of says a lot. Yeah, that's a really good point, Gabe. If you texted me saying, hey, I want to talk about some stuff that's weighing heavily on me, My reply would be like, okay, I'm getting out of bed, how's now, or later today or tomorrow. Because I want to hear you out. I want to rectify the situation because I will lose a lot of sleep over something like this. I can't just go on with my day.

And it sounds like her friend, Charlene or whatever over here, is like, yeah, let's circle back on this in Q3 when I get the capacity to focus on this. It just says so much. I think the takeaway here might be manage your expectations with old Charlene. Yeah, I think you need to go into this conversation knowing that you might not get the response. her outcome you're hoping for? If what you're hoping for is for Charlene to go, oh my God, I had no idea. I hurt you so much. I'm so sorry. I need to go work on this. I need to be a better friend. Give me another chance. I just don't know. Look, she might be able to take some of this in and, hey, who knows? Maybe she'll break down crying and be like, I know, it's all upfront for my low

self-esteem. But, I don't know, maybe some combination of her grief about her son and having an old friend tell her point blank that her behavior has been pretty awful. Maybe that'll cut through some of the noise and she'll have to acknowledge some of that stuff. That would be a good outcome. I just do not think you should bank on it. So actually, I would try to let go of too many specific ideas about how this conversation should turn out and just focus primarily on sharing these things with your friend for your own reasons. And those reasons, in my view, are going on record with your friend about this behavior, how it affected you, how it's impacted your friendship, giving her some crucial information about how she comes across, how she treats people,

how that's shaping a lot of her interactions and relationships, and honoring your own and protecting yourself by speaking up about all this. If you do that, I would probably consider this conversation successful. What she does with all this, how she responds, whether she changes, that's up to her. But even if she doesn't, I think it's still worth going on record. I totally agree, Jordan. And one way you could say this is, look, we've been friends for 25 years. I think you know that I really value you. I value your humor, your energy, your presence. I've enjoyed spending all of these holidays together. I've also been reflecting on my friendships lately and I've had a few realizations that I feel I owe it to you and also to myself to share.

And just a heads up, you know, like some of what I'm about to say might not be the most fun to hear. And I'm sorry about that. My goal is not to hurt you. But I hope you can take this in. I hope we can talk about it. And I think if we do, it might make us even closer. And then I would lay out your main observations, that she tends to dominate conversations, that she doesn't seem to take a demonstrable interest in you, that she's frequently rude to people,

including you, one of her oldest and most loyal friends, that she got into this conflict with your son, that she says hurtful things in general, and how that makes you feel. I would lay all of that out briefly, but directly. I wouldn't sugarcoat it, but, you know, like, don't go overboard either. Just present her with the facts. And then I would say something like, look,

I want to be there for you during this tough time. I am so sorry that you lost your son. I really don't want to abandon you here. But the truth is, all of this behavior has been going on for decades, long before what happened with your son. and I'm starting to realize that our friendship just has not been healthy for a very long time. So I'm sharing this with you so you know where I am right now.

And I'm open to talking about this with you and understanding maybe where this is coming from. Maybe there's something I'm missing. Maybe there's something you want to share with me. I can look at this in a new way and see if there's maybe a way forward for us. But in order to remain close, I would need you to really hear me out and look at this behavior. And I would need to know that you are earnestly going to work on it. Or I'm just not sure I can continue being close. I like that. It's honest. It's simple. It's non-combative. It's absolutely fair. You say something like that to somebody you've been close with for a quarter of a century. If they don't respond at the very least by going, wow, I clearly need to hear this. I'm really sorry. Please let me explain or give me a chance to change. Then that person is not a good friend. And I would have zero regrets about bouncing at that point. This conversation is a come to Jesus moment. Either this friend responds with humility and contrition and openness or she doesn't. And if she doesn't, there's

nothing left to say, really. The fact that she lost her son, as tragic as that is, it's basically irrelevant. Okay, I know that sounds cool, but because frankly, look, it sounds like this woman has just, she's been a dick for years. Brutal take, but I think you're right. That's right. If she isn't a dick, she's a simmering pot of dick set to a low boil. On the induction stove of friendship. Yes. Exactly. Those things are amazing, by the way. Do you have, you have an induction stove, don't you? We do. And I agree. They are indeed a miracle of modern science. The fact that I can put my hand down, on it. I can have a baby crawling on half of it and then another pan on another part of it anywhere on it.

Not on a bird, just on it anywhere. It is heated to 200 degrees three inches away and it's mind boggling. The baby's fine. I know. My friend Victor has one here at the house and I put a pot of oat milk down and I walked away for a minute when I came back. It was boiling and frothing over. I'm just, how does this work? I don't know. Magnus. How do they work? Perfect sound bite. But anyway, sorry for that weird aside about induction stoves. But I agree with you. would say that the only way that the loss of her son might be relevant here is if that tragedy has cracked this woman open in some way. If losing her son has made her more vulnerable or more humble

or what I would hope is that it's made her more appreciative of the friends who have stuck with her. But I just cannot tell from this letter whether it has done that. Yeah, I'm going to go with not. I do also find it interesting, though, that they've both experienced big losses recently. She lost her son and our friend here lost her mom. And I wonder if that's something she could bring into this conversation like, look, since I lost my mom, I have a new clarity about what matters to me in life, how I want to treat people, how I want to be treated. And I'm wondering if you feel the same. Yeah, I like that. I don't know if Charlene is capable of that mindset, but I do like that. But who knows? Maybe hearing that out loud would be like an oh shit moment. Like I said, it can happen.

But again, I would not get too attached to that result. Your goal here is to go on record with her largely for yourself and then give her a chance to show you what kind of person she is, how she responds in this conversation or maybe in the period after, that'll tell you everything you need to know. But my gut is telling me that you're probably done with Charlene, and when you get to that point with someone, you've got to be very disciplined and move on. People like this can be very hurtful, very exhausting, and more often than not, trying to make a friendship like this fair and healthy is a waste of time. And I commend you for seeing that so clearly, if that's the case.

Sending you and your son a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com, keep your emails concise, try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're being retaliated against by a bitter, meddlesome, gossipy subordinate at work, your ex is harassing,

defrauding, and sextorting you, or you're worried that your creepy relative might be a serial killer. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up, Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, we bit wiser, our newsletter, every Wednesday, almost. It's a two-minute read, very practical. I invite you to come check it out.

Jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 37, my wife is 35. We've been married for 13 years, and we have three kids, ages 9, 3, and 1. I've been working in my trade for about 15 years and have been a journeyman for 11, but I never really wanted to work in the trades. It was always supposed to be a backup because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I make decent money, low six figures, and my wife doesn't work as we have both always wanted her to be home with the kids while they were young, and she doesn't have any post-secondary education, so no real career prospects. The problem is, my income is no longer getting us by, as the cost of living is increasing significantly faster than my wages. We live pretty simply. We bought our small bungalow house

a little over five years ago when we had only one child. Both our vehicles are over 15 years old. We don't go out to eat often, and neither of us are big spenders. But the money just seems to be pouring out of our accounts. And now we have approximately 15 grand in credit card debt. Okay, not fatal, but something to get on top of soon before it spirals out of control. My mother-in-law has been living with us for the last two years due to her terrible taste in men. She has three divorces and some poor decision-making on her part. She has a very, part-time job and only recently started contributing to the monthly bills. Man, fun ABC sitcom you're living in, man.

Geez. Thankfully, we have some small savings and a retirement and pension plan through my work. Great. What a gift. I've tried to follow a few other career paths over the years, but nothing has worked out. Last year, I got licensed to do mortgages after a few friends said that it would be a good fit. But I've had a really hard time getting it started. After getting my license and into a brokerage, I realized I'm might have bitten off more than I can chew. I love solving problems and working with people,

and I'm good with math, but I'm not what you would call a go-getter. I struggle to push myself beyond the path of least resistance. That has been the story of my life. But I can't really afford to do that anymore. I'm still working full-time in the trades and have applied to at least a dozen out-of-town jobs in the last few months where I could make significantly more money, probably with a 50% boost to my income. But I've had exactly zero responses. I'm now considering letting my mortgage license lapse as it costs $150 a month plus another $500 a year to keep, but I've spent a significant amount of time and money getting licensed, and it feels like it would be an absolute waste to let all of that go down the drain.

Do you think there's any way I can change my old habits? Or should I just throw in a towel on this potential new career and keep trying to find a better job in my current industry? Signed, a laid-back journeyman looking for a new way of earning fam, when I can't tell if this is a worthy plan or I need to be more sturdy, man. Okay, good questions, questionable sign-off. You remember what I told you about the boat and the rocking? I think it's done a number on my sign-offs this week.

I think so. So first of all, man, I'm sorry you're going through this financial stress. I know how scary and intense it can be. I don't think you're in huge danger yet, but I'm glad that you want to get on top of this and climb out of this debt. And I appreciate how determined you are to find new ways of making money to keep up with the rising costs and the fact that you're making low six figures from a career you didn't even really want,

I think that speaks to your work ethic, man, your determination. I know those qualities will serve you well no matter what you do. The other thing I want to say is, I know this mortgage career hasn't worked out the way you'd hoped, but I admire that you pursued something very different, and I love that you invested in yourself, you put yourself out there. I'm sure that took a lot of hard work and courage, and that could be a great asset to you. Your challenge, which you seem to see very clearly is that motivating yourself, switching gears, charting a new path before the momentum can carry you along, sticking with it long enough to create that momentum. That's hard for you. I appreciate how aware you are of that. That's half the battle. Gabe, there's a part of me that

doesn't really believe when people are like, oh, I'm the path of least resistance kind of guy. Nah, you're not. You trained in a new career. You took on a trade you didn't really want because it was better for you long term. That's not path of least resistance. You just think that you're that guy right now because there's fear and you're listening to the fear, you're not lazy. That's not what I'm hearing at all. Interesting. I think he's mislabeling himself as lazy or a path of least resistance when there's uncertainty and maybe he's responding to fear.

I just, I don't buy the lazy argument. I don't think so. It's not what I'm hearing at all. It would be different if you were like, I've been sponging off my wife for the last 13 years and haven't managed to get a job. I'm a path of least resistance kind of guy. Okay, then I would buy it. His actions don't match the label he's applied to him.

here. So to answer your question, yes, of course there's a way to change your old habits. That's the beauty of being human. We can almost always change. We can rewrite our patterns. We can overcome our obstacles. But it takes a lot of hard work, diligence, commitment, and patience, and just the right ratio of toughness and self-compassion. And that is not easy, especially when you're working with patterns that are very old, like I assume some of these are. So I'm probably not going to weigh in on whether you should throw in the towel in the mortgage career or keep trying to find a better job in the trades, because I don't actually think that you that's the right question right now. The right question, in my view, is what's really going on

beneath this lack of ambition? What is it about pushing yourself beyond what you're calling the path of least resistance that's so hard? That's the question you need to answer. And it's not one we can necessarily answer for you, but maybe we can help you get somewhere in the neighborhood, show you the right rock to turn over so you can look at the bugs underneath. Because I've struggled with the same thing at various points, right? Well, all of us do, I think, honestly. And what I found is that when we feel unmotivated, when we feel unambitious, when we want to go with the flow instead of charting a new path that would be better for us, it's almost always because we are avoiding something. We're avoiding certain feelings. We're avoiding an experience of the world.

We're avoiding an, avoiding an experience of ourselves, something that's too distressing for us to tolerate. This is true of procrastinating on the small tasks, and this is true of avoiding the big tasks. It's not the tasks that we're avoiding. It's the feelings that the tasks stir up in us. So what you have to do is get clear on what thoughts and feelings this mortgage game is bringing up for you. Again, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to guess that this new industry brings up a few things. Vulnerability and trying your hand at a role in an industry that is new to you and putting yourself out there as a financial expert after working in the trades, fear of doing it wrong, of struggling, of failing, whatever. Which probably also comes with a lot

of confusion, I would imagine. I'm sure he's confused about the ins and outs of mortgages and, you know, how do I drum up business and how do I spend my time when I'm still in the trades, but I want to make this transition, maybe even confusion about whether this new path is even really going to pay off, so is it even worth it? Yep, and I think also probably some shame about how distressing and overwhelming all of those feelings can be for you. Like I said, I'm just guessing here, I'll let you identify the specific feelings. But if any of that hits home, that's because deep down, we all share the same feelings.

And when we're resisting something, especially professionally, there are usually a few common culprits. Yeah, totally well said. And then we will do almost anything to avoid those feelings, right? And so we get bored, quote unquote, or lazy, quote unquote, or we go, oh, well, I'll just do this thing here that I'm already doing, even though my heart's not in it and it's not making me enough money, because it's just easier and I understand it already and it makes more sense. So I'm just going to be practical about this, but then dot, dot, dot, we don't make any progress. Exactly. So I think that's your job now to really identify those thoughts and feelings, to confront the parts of you that get activated by trying your hand at something very different and putting yourself out there.

And then, this is the most important part, to see what it's like to keep working away at this new career while feeling those feelings and build up your capacity to bear them. Bit of a theme on today's episode, but kind of on every feedback Friday, to be honest, until you do that, I think this mortgage pivot is going to continue to frustrate you. And if you do do that, then you have a real shot at making this pivot work and building up these parts of you that you've been protecting by sticking with a career that's familiar, but ultimately unfulfilling. Yes, I think you nailed it, Jordan. That's exactly right. And by the way, I just want to say, I'm dealing with my own version of this right now with some new creative projects

I'm working on. I know how hard this is. So I really feel for this guy. And the stakes for him are so high. Like he needs to take care of his family. He wants to make sure his kids are okay. He has to climb out of debt. He probably wants to prove to himself that he can do this, that he can make a pivot like this into the mortgage world. And I get why this matter so much and why it's so hard. But I think you're absolutely right, Jordan. And actually, I think what you were getting at a moment ago when you were quibbling with his phrase about the path of least resistance, I think to frame this in terms of I'm not what you would call a go-getter, I actually think that's kind of skating on the surface of the real issue here, right? He's chalking this up to some

quality that he thinks is missing. It sounds to me like he believes that there are people who are ambitious and there are people who are not ambitious. And that's just how it is. And yeah, maybe that's true, but I think it's true only up to a point. The reality is closer to what you're saying, Jordan, that there are people who build up the capacity to bear the injuries of trying to do something you don't know how to do yet and struggling. And there are people who cramp around them and avoid them, which I have done at various points in my life and still catch myself doing. So ambition is definitely a real quality, but it's not the full story and it's probably not the thing that's holding him back. I totally agree. And the path of least resistance,

that's attractive to him because it's easier, but really it's just easier because it's safer. Exactly. But, you know, I'm actually excited for him because, yes, this is is hard to rewrite. And yes, it takes time and it takes work. But he's at a point of healthy desperation. Like he said, he can't really afford to do this anymore. And that could be a very useful place to be. For sure. So my advice is give this a real go. Chip away at this mortgage game while you feel these feelings, talk about them with your wife and your friends and a couple of trusted people and then see what comes up. You might give this a go and realize, you know what? Mortgages, not for me. That's not my path. And if that's the case, it's 100% okay to let your license lapse and pursue something

that's more aligned for you. There's no shame in that. But you might also give this a go and realize, okay, this is my path. It's just putting me in touch with my limitations, my inertia, my fear, it's making me confront new obstacles. And that's really hard for me. But I can learn to work with those in order to do this work. And if that's the conclusion you come to, I think you'll be really glad you didn't throw in the towel prematurely. Because in all likelihood, you're going to encounter these obstacles in any field you pursue. And what a lot of people do is they keep changing fields, their results will change, when in reality what needs to change is their relationship with themselves.

So I hope that gives you a way forward here, man. I'm excited for what's ahead either way. Good luck. You know what'll last longer than your dysfunctional mother-in-law's next marriage? The discount codes on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support the amazing

sponsors who make the show possible. all of the deals discount codes in ways to support this podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordan harbinger.com slash deals and if that doesn't work, you can always email the team here at jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation of the week is blue light blocking glasses. I don't know why I didn't recommend this years ago. I've been using them for years. These are glasses that block the blue light spectrum that keeps your brain thinking it's daytime

and causes eye fatigue. And they're in every screen and everything you look at and every light in your house, basically. It also, according to a lot of science, prevents the production of melatonin, which tells your brain, hey, time to sleep, helps regulate your circadian rhythm.

So if you've ever found it hard to fall asleep after farting around on your phone, which a lot of us do, this is one reason why. And blue light also seems to increase the production of serotonin, and that's just kind of bad news all around. Again, I started wearing these things one to two hours before bed years ago, and I pass out so much faster now. My aura ring, sleep scores are higher as a result. Back when I was still

screwing around on my phone all the time, and even now, because let's admit it, we all do it occasionally. I'll pass out with the phone in my hand. And I know you're looking at your phone, even though you know you shouldn't be, because we all do it. And right now, the brand of blue light blockers I wear are called Swanies, like the bird. They are a little bit more, what's the word, I guess, like fashion forward. You know, if you were at a late dinner and you wore these, nobody'd be like, what the heck are you doing? I wear those when I'm out and about or doing something late at night.

There's also a pair that comes with Fly Kit, which is another sponsor of the show. So if you have a Fly Kit, there's a pair in there for the Fly Kit. Those are kind of more wraparound-y-looking ones. I wear those in bed. And so those recommendations for the pairs I like, I'll drop those in the show notes. They're not expensive, folks. Get a decent pair because you don't want to get a headache from cheaply made lenses, but they're not bananas. They're not like the same price as real glasses.

Give them a go. You'll thank me later. You will definitely get in the habit of using these and falling asleep faster and sleep is priceless. So give it a shot. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or recommendations or other side conversation, that's over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, what's next?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 17, and I just started my scene. year of high school. I realize that I'm one of your youngest listeners, but I could use some guidance that might change my life and maybe speak to some other people too. I come from a medium-sized town in the U.S., and I'm eager to see more of the world. I like my state okay and I love my family, but there's so much more out there. Hearing you guys talk about your travels recently has gotten me pumped to hit the road, backpack, put myself in uncomfortable situations, and grow, basically. but I'm also getting pressure from friends, teachers, and family to do the traditional thing and apply to colleges this fall. I want to go to college too. I'm just not sure which path I should

prioritize. Should I travel before or after college? Does it matter? If I wait, will I be too late? And do you have any other advice for me as I try to broaden my horizons and see the world? Signed, looking for some feedback about when to take up the knapsack and finally hit the roadjack when I'm facing two very different tracks. Yeah, good question and very close to my heart, obviously. So first of all, I love your spirit. I love your curiosity. The fact that you already feel this call to go traveling

that tells me, A, you definitely have to do it. And B, you're going to get a lot out of this experience. Honestly, middle-aged me is envious and super excited for you. Going to high school in East Germany when I was your age, man, that was one of the defining experiences of my life. It put me on a very unique path that's been super rewarding. it was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I don't think I'd be the same person

if I hadn't done it. Yeah, you definitely wouldn't have that haircut. I'll tell you that much. Or you also would not talk about European windows as much as you do. So it's really changed your life. My window expertise level would be. I would be a window white belt for sure.

Facts, baby. So look, I don't think if you wait a couple years to travel, it's going to be too late. It's never too late to travel. You'll still have a rich experience, especially at your age. You'll also have 300 grand in student debt. So there's that.

And, man, I'll tell you just from my own life experience, every five-year period that goes by, the level of complication in my life goes up. It's like, when you're at high school, you're like, I don't have anything I got to do. Well, I kind of need to go to college at some point. And then you're like, oh, life's tough. And then five years after that, you're like, oh, I graduated college. I need to get a job because I have debt. And then you get into your career and five years into there, you're like, I can't leave. I'm managing a bunch of really important projects for this career. And the next step for me is right around the corner. And then five years after that, you're like, I basically manage this place.

There's no getting around it. I'm right about to make partners slash have just made partner and I've got a baby on the way. Right. And then it's like, I can't do shit. I got kids now. What are you talking about? I got kids under five. And then it's kids under 10. And then it's aging parents. And, you know, like your life will not get easier as time goes on probably until you're retired. And that's a long time from now, Mr. 17 year old. So the longer you wait, the more frustrated you might become that you're not exploring this thing that really matters to you and the higher opportunity costs will also be. For example, you take a gap year and you travel at age 17, 18, whatever, or you get into college and you defer for a year and then you go traveling, not a big

opportunity cost. You're just starting that chapter a year later at a point in your life where, statistically speaking, you still have a ton of time. At your age, that's not a big deal. But going to college for four years and then taking a year off to travel, still definitely an option. Not a mistake by any means, but it does change the equation. First of all, it means you're spending four years in a classroom and then seeing the world. I can see upsides and downsides to that. It depends on what kind of person you are. Like, would it be hard for you to sit in a classroom for four years and just feel like you haven't scratched that itch? Would school be boring or confusing or irrelevant or less rich without that experience? Or would you enjoy learning in a classroom

and then taking everything you learn out into the world? Do you feel like there are books you really want to read and ideas you really want to understand before you hit the road or do you just want to learn things on the road and then bring them back into your education. I am sort of that guy. Like, I wish I'd traveled way more before going to college. I probably would have picked a different major and done things differently. But again, there's no right way. But the order you do this is going to change your experience and you're steering a ship. If you change your course five degrees at home port where you are right now, you're going to end up in a vastly different place in five or even 10 years. So my take, honestly, traveling before.

before you go to school, it's going to make you way more interesting, way more mature. I'm personally a big fan of that idea. Another thing, if you travel after college, you won't be entering the job market right after school when a lot of companies are recruiting. Maybe they're recruiting from your school. And then you'll have to explain to hiring managers what you did for that year, which, like, maybe they get it and find it interesting. Maybe they don't.

At the very least, you'll have to craft a good story. Again, not a mistake, just a different equation. There's also a practical element to this. Do you have the money to travel right now? If so, sure, awesome. Maybe now's your moment. If you have to work for a while to earn the money, maybe you work while you're in school,

and you save and then you hit the road. I would also stay open to a few different versions of this. You know, to go back to that George Saunders idea I shared a few weeks ago, this choice probably is not as binary as you think. You don't have to choose between traveling now or traveling later, and that's it. You could do, I don't know, a short trip the summer before college, dip your toe in the travel waters if you want to do more of it,

and then you could travel again during your summers or after you graduate, or you could go to college for two years, take a year off to travel, come back and finish up. You could go straight to college and get a job and then see if you can defer your start date on that job and then travel then. There are so many ways that this could go, or you could do some combination of all of those things. So your best bet is probably to just generate lots of different opportunities for yourself and then see which dots you want to connect. So one good strategy and a nice way to mitigate your risk is just apply to colleges regardless, see where you get in, see if the ones that you actually want to go to will let you

defer, and then you can make that choice at that point. Or maybe you look into like work-travel experiences and see if you find a program that's speaking to you more than school is right now, and that's your move. There's just, there's so many versions of this. Don't get too locked into this idea that it's one or the other. Good point. Also, it's really easy to agonize about these choices in the abstract, but if you give yourself lots of options, then the choices, it usually just becomes a lot easier. Exactly. But Gabe, you're a resident nomad these days. You're the the one getting seasick on the Baltic Sea. What do you think? Before college, after college. I was just sitting here thinking about the first time I went traveling without my family. I was

21, I think. I had just gotten a job offer for after college, so that whole thing was squared away. And then my childhood friend Michael and I went backpacking through Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Belize for three weeks. And it was amazing. I did not really have the itch to travel before then. I don't think I knew anyone actually who had done that kind of travel like the backpacking thing before. But if I had, I'm sure traveling even earlier only would have added to my life. It is such a gift to see the world as early as possible and open yourself up to new influences early on. And yeah, get comfortable being in these uncomfortable situations and then come back to your life and you just have so much more to bring to it. So I'm with you, Jordan.

I don't think that there's one right way to do it. I think everybody has to find their own path. But if he has been called to this kind of travel and he goes and done, it, it's going to put him light years beyond his peers in terms of curiosity and confidence and worldview. But I just don't think that anyone needs to be on one timeline to enjoy travel. It's rewarding at every age. Although I will say, one big advantage to traveling when you're younger, please don't torture yourself thinking that you need to do it on one timeline to get it right. Travel is rewarding at every age, and it's going to always be available to you. Although, I will say,

one huge advantage to traveling when you're really young, you're willing to travel much more cheaply and you're willing to put up with way worse situations. And that can be a huge advantage because there are some great experiences if you're willing to be uncomfortable. Oh, man, can confirm. You hit an age where you just will not stay in a hostel anymore. And it might even be creepy if you did. Yeah. Or if you do, you're like, oh, I'll just, I'll get the private room at the private bathroom. But then you're not hanging out and drinking 40s with all the other kids and having that experience, which is kind of the whole point of staying at a youth hostel. The other point is pretending to be asleep on the top bunk while two Eastern Europeans go at it like a recent,

is this macaques on the bottom bunk? That is a rite of passage, right? Everybody should enjoy that experience at least once in their lives. Exactly. At a certain point, you're like, I'm just, yeah, I'm not doing this. I'm staying at a proper hotel with a queen bed, air conditioning, a mattress that doesn't smell like a Bel Russian tourist's feet after hiking Machu Picchu. Exactly.

And that, of course, is going to cost you six times as much. That is money that you are not spending on, you know, that spontaneous side quest, moped trip, boat, adventure, whatever, whatever you get into on your travels. And then you're not walking the hour and 15 minutes. to the Buddhist temple or whatever because you value your time too much and your knees hurts so you hire a taxi to take you and you miss that whole experience. It's not that you can't do that stuff in your 30s or 40s or beyond that. You just kind of have to force yourself to do those things and you have to consciously

increase your capacity for discomfort slash resist the urge to dodge that discomfort with money, which I can tell you firsthand, very hard to do as an adult. It's so true. You just don't want to do. It's so true. There's something to be said for traveling while you're too young and poor to realize that the whole experience is actually kind of. unpleasant, which a lot of rugged travel is, but that's the price of admission for an experience

that is so rich, but sometimes it's only rich for a certain period of your life. I have to say, that's one of the reasons I love Wayfinders, the group I plugged on the show a couple months back, because Mike, who runs it does a really good job of being like, I know you guys are all rich business owner, D-bags, but we're staying on riverboats tonight, and you're like, what, okay? And then it's like, all right, we're staying in yurts in the desert, and then you're like, okay, and by the time you're like, what fresh hell does he have for us? He's like, we're staying at a four-star Riverside huts with massages and chef-cooked meals, and we're like, thank you. And like, everyone hits the hot tub. And then he's like, tomorrow we're hiking

up a mountain at four o'clock in the morning, so don't drink too much. You know, he does a really good job of balancing all that stuff. And since you don't have a choice, because he's running it, you get to do that unpleasant part and get the rewards out of it and then, you know, take a real shower afterwards. It's very obvious to me that you are going to travel, my friend. And it's up to you to decide when you want to listen to that call and when you want to make it happen for yourself. The best advice I can give you is just sit with this question, talk to people you trust about it, including some older people, ideally people who have traveled like this, and then do something that can be really hard to do at 17 years old, which is to get very quiet with yourself

and just see what your heart is telling you to do at a stage in your life when you can really afford to listen to your heart. The opportunity costs are about as low as they can get for you at your age, so you can probably afford to listen to your heart as long as you're smart about it. And speaking of being smart about it, the last piece of advice I would give you is just try to be very intentional about your travel. I wouldn't waste too much time, you know, sitting on beaches or drinking for the sake of drinking, or spending time with people who don't add to your life, or having the same experience over and over again in different countries. These are all very common pitfalls. I'm not saying there isn't like a role for serendipity and just sometimes a funny night out as

exactly what you need. I'm not saying don't have those things, but just keep checking in with yourself and make sure that all of it is meaningful. Have stimulating conversations, read good books, look for the meaningful experiences, the unique experiences, stick with the people who elevate you, who expand you, and I don't know, maybe learn a language or a skill along the way and just make sure that you're always growing. If you are and you're having fun, then maybe you keep going. And if you're not, then hey, maybe it's time for a vibe shift. You know, it's time to come home and begin a new chapter, which might coincide really nicely with college. If you do all of that, I think these travels are going to be really rewarding. And then the earlier you get them, the more they're going to pay off.

Amen, Gabe, totally agree. But also, and this is for everyone else listening right now, there's no magical window where you can travel and then it closes. It's a beautiful thing to do at any age, but the types of experiences you tend to have, the time frame in which you get to fully enjoy them and apply them to the rest of your life, that does change. But the world is always out there, and we got to enjoy it however we can. Also, one final piece of advice, you're going to meet a lot of amazing people on your travels, and one of the best ways to make this period pay off is to keep in touch with the people that you do meet. You know, I have a bunch of lifelong friends that I've met on my travels, and it's all because of the six-minute networking type stuff, that, the early

proto version of that. If you go to six-minute networking.com, you know, the spiel. I really did put a lot of this into action before I codified it. But a lot of backpackers, we meet amazing people, and then, you know, you never drop them a WhatsApp message or a voice note and you know you move on in these potentially life-changing connections they just wither on the vine plus investing in the people you meet it's also a great way to meet even more people have even richer experiences and even more places so really this is a crucial part of a good traveler's toolkit it sounds like that's what you did Gabe with this guy victor you mentioned and now look at you sleeping on his dining room floor 15 years later meeting his kids getting to enjoy Stockholm in this unique way yeah i mean actually you're so right because there's

There's a world where we just went our separate ways and never enjoy this friendship beyond that time in college. But yeah, you got to put in a little work. It totally pays off. And that's yet another way to capitalize on this experience and not just reduce the opportunity cost, but actually make these travels pay dividends for kind of the rest of your life. Just that extra, you know, 10% of admin can make all the difference in the world. I'm excited for you, friend. I hope you have an incredible time and good luck. Go back and listen to James Kimmel on The Science of Revenge and Kashmir Hill on why AI chatbots are driving some people literally insane.

Also, our Feedback Friday bonus episode on Wednesday in case you missed Feedback Friday last Friday due to the error in the feed. And our skeptical Sunday, on penis size, if you haven't done so yet. It's a girthy episode. Show notes and transcripts at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcasts. One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Tadasidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. Yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what

you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. but the real danger may be hiding and trusted institutions that we see every day. I'm a financial reporter by background. I basically fell into this rabbit hole. And so I began to dig, and this Spanish priest called Hosse Maria Escriva dreamed up, this kind of group which called itself Opus Day,

which is Latin for the work of God. He saw his followers as part of this hidden militia that would infiltrate society and use their positions there to basically push society in the right direction. and he literally tasked them with infiltrating government, business, the world of education, becoming journalists, and kind of using their positions there to be this guerrilla reactionary force. The thing that makes this so much worse is that this is an organization which has been legitimized

by the Catholic Church. It has the stamp of approval from the Pope from the Vatican. The way that Opus Day operates is that it's using scripture to push back on anything progressive and for anything kind of left-leaning and it's a misuse of religion really. I think the vast majority of Obstay members, they don't have a clue about this human trafficking and the way that certain members are being drugged, labor trafficking, I mean, grooming of children, all kinds of kind of financial fraud and spiritual fraud as well. All of these abuses going on, I think they would be absolutely horrified to find out what is going on

inside the organization. They have thousands of members. The network runs far and wide. assets in the billions. Anyone that isn't part of Opus Day is an enemy of Christ. Gareth Gore uncovers how Opus Day built a global empire of secrecy and why dismantling it might be the fight of our time. Check it out on episode 1170 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

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