The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1253: Organ Donation | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: December 7, 2025

Bureaucracy kills more transplant patients than shortage does. Jessica Wynn harvests the truth about organ donation's dark side here on Skeptical Sunday! Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by writer and researcher Jessica Wynn!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1253On This Week's Skeptical Sunday:Over 100,000 Americans wait for organs while 13 die daily — not from organ shortage, but from systemic inefficiency, poor matching protocols, and bureaucratic bottlenecks that waste thousands of usable organs annually.Living donation is safer than most realize. Donors can give kidneys, liver portions, even lungs while alive and generally recover well, but workplace protections vary wildly by state, creating real financial and career risks for altruistic donors.The organ matching system is a bureaucratic labyrinth. HRSA, OPTN, UNOS, CMS, and CDC all overlap in managing transplants, creating inefficiencies that prevent organs from reaching recipients in time despite available technology.Ethical nightmares haunt the system. Scandals include surgeons nearly harvesting from living patients, global black markets exploiting the poor, and allegations of forced organ harvesting from prisoners in countries like China without consent.Register as a donor and advocate for reform. One donor saves up to eight lives and helps 75+ through tissue donation. Push for automated referrals, airline transport mandates, and better tracking tech to transform a broken but lifesaving system.Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know!Connect with Jessica Wynn at Instagram and Threads, and subscribe to her newsletters: Between the Lines and Where the Shadows Linger!And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors:Shopify: 3 months @ $1/month (select plans): shopify.com/jordanTonal: $200 off: tonal.com, code JORDANApretude: Learn more: Apretude.com or call 1-888-240-0340Land Rover: landroverusa.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled

into far-right conspiracies. An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiruality podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspiruality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host writer and researcher, Jessica, and we are not in a bad mood because of tech issues today, Jessica. We are not. No, I love technology. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and whatever,

and turn their wisdom into practical advice you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker without throwing my computer through the f***ing window. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, it's Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic. Topics like circumcision, e-commerce scams, diet supplements, ear-candling, self-help cults, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show,

I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today we're talking about organ donation. It's life-saving, it's complicated, and occasionally it sounds like an episode of Black Mirror. And I know what you're thinking, oh, this is going to be depressing. But hang on, it is going to be depressing, but it's also going to be fascinating, weird, and a little gross.

you know, perfect podcast material. But here's the bigger question. How far does our responsibility to other people really go? Digging into the science, the myths, and the ethics of organ donation is writer and researcher Jessica Wynn. So set the scene for us, Jess, how many people are waiting for an organ right now? Because basically, whenever I hear the number, it's always like a lottery jackpot. It's just a huge number. It's more than we want to think. Over a hundred thousand people in the United States alone are on the transplant waiting list. Every eight minutes, a new name gets added. In 2024, we did about 50,000 transplants total in the United States, so that's roughly like 130 transplants a day. That's actually really impressive, how many they do

in a day. But yeah, 100,000 people on the list, and there's 50,000 per year. I don't know how long people can last with a bad organ, but that doesn't seem like... Yeah, 50-50 shot is not the best. And it might not even work like that, right? Because every eight minutes a new name gets added, but like how often does one get taken on? I don't know. Anyway, that just means a lot of people are still waiting and they might die waiting.

And lists, man, they got a bad rep, Schindler's, Epstein's, Oregon, whatever. None of them end well. The lists are always kind of a downer. Yeah, unfortunately, they don't end well. And every day, about 13 people waiting for an organ die. Wow. So when you consider a total of about 8,000 Americans die daily for other reasons, that's tens of thousands of usable organs getting wasted every year. Getting wasted. Not in the fun way.

Not in the fun way. Yeah, that, oh man, 13 people a day is brutal, especially if we're not short on organs. They're just, well, maybe we are. But also, we're not getting them where they need to go, right? If we have the medical skill and we have donors, what is causing the disconnect? Well, part of it is because only 60% of Americans are registered organ donors. Are you registered? Yeah, of course.

I kind of thought everyone was unless you were, like, 80 years old or super religious in some kind of way. I don't know. We'll talk about that later. But I'm also on the bone marrow transplant list. Shout out to nmdp.org. Everybody go register. It doesn't hurt to donate the stuff. and it can save someone's life.

Right. And yeah, please make sure you're registered for everything. Anyone over 18 can register. But honestly, the bigger issue is more than registration numbers. The shortage is caused by inefficiency in the organ donation system. So organs often don't get matched in time. So is it that people don't want to donate or is it that we don't have a good system in place? I mean, it's a little bit of both, but it's more about the system.

So most people and most organs are eligible. And if you're physically and mentally healthy, you can donate organs like a liver or a kidney as a living donor. Really? Okay. Right. So it's not just after you die. Though I feel like, can I get your liver, bro? Is not an easy ask over dinner with the homies.

Yeah, that could be a little awkward, I guess. Hey, put down that beer, Jordan. I kind of have a little favor to ask you. Pass the potatoes and your kidney. That's right. Right. Just one, though. Come on. Don't be so selfish. But living donation is safe and donors overwhelmingly recover well. Okay.

Transplant programs like Emery's living donor program, they do full medical evaluations to protect both the donor and the recipient. And one living donor can save up to eight lives. Eight lives. And I don't have to die. Right. I don't know. Would you do it, Jess? I mean, I've never been approached. I'd like to think I've. would, but you may have disqualified yourself. I may. I don't know my, and definitely nobody wants my liver, but I don't know. I mean, you know, maybe I have some good parts. I hope I do. But, you know, let's be honest. It's a big decision. And there's all kinds of consequences that, you know,

you might not think about. There's a famous case from 2012 where a woman donated a kidney to save her boss's life. They went through it. Yeah. The boss recovered, no problems. The boss went back to work. She had all these complications. She tried to return to work. She used up all her sick days. Long story short, she was fired by that boss for performative issues during her struggle to recover. Wow. Wait, that's one of those like, please tell me there's more to the story. And so they were like, we appreciate your organ, but we still have to let you go. Tell me she won the subsequent lawsuit. Oh, she sued, but the case was settled out of court confidentially. So I'm not sure how it all shook out. A million dollars and give me my kidney back, bitch.

Give it back. I don't think so. Wow. Do corporations have policies for this in place? Because it seems like it should be kind of illegal to fire somebody who donates an organ and is like, I'm trying to save the life of a child. They're like, you know what, though? We kind of needed to do. here on Monday. So bye-bye. That's not cool. Yeah, so luckily I didn't find any other outrageous cases like that, but I did look into policies and it depends on the state you're in and your employer. So some states guarantee 30 days of paid leave, which seems short, right? Yeah. If you're on either side of an organ donation, others just follow. There's a federal FMLA rule. The best companies will offer job protection and continued benefits and insurance for donors.

So recovery times are set by HR. That might be a great question to ask at a job interview to gauge a company's ethics. What's your organ donor policy? And you can just see on the other end of the Zoom call, they're just furiously flipping through a manual like, do we have an organ donor policy? Yeah. That's a case by case thing. Yeah, that's what they're going to say.

Exactly. I mean, if you get fired for altruism, that's not a different. option for most people. No, no. And I'm thinking like, okay, I run this show. Can I do it while I'm sort of recovering from a liver donation? I don't know. I mean, you wouldn't know until you did it, right? Yeah. I don't know if I want to test those waters. Okay, so what can we actually donate when we're gone and while we're here? I obviously can't donate my heart and valves and stuff while I'm still alive. Right. We can donate a lot more than you might think. So your heart, your kidneys, lungs, pancreas, liver, intestines.

When I'm dead, obviously. When you're dead, not all of them. I mean, the heart for sure. But it's more than organs, too. So after you die, you can donate your corneas while you're alive. You can donate skin, tendons, bone, nerves, heart valves. The list is really long. Donated tissue alone can improve the lives of up to 75 people.

And it's just wild what we can donate while we're alive. Like living donations include a portion of your liver. You can donate a portion of your intestines, pancreas, one of your kidneys, even one of your lungs. I can donate skin while I'm alive. Yeah. I think that came from, you know, grafting originally. It's sort of grew from that. I guess if you really need skin, because I'm thinking like what poor soul is like, oh, thanks for

your hairy back skin. But I guess if you're like, don't have a face. Yeah. You'll take it. Or it's like going on your back. And you're, why do you have all these weird different patches of hair? Three skin donors. Sorry, it was a bad burn.

I'm so curious how that works. That's crazy. I almost feel like I should. Wonder if you can get them tattooed. Oh, yeah. You might, again, you might have disqualified yourself. Like, hey, do you want the one with the Pentagon? Or do you want like the heart that says mom on your neck?

Oh my gosh. On your face. Also, a lung, you can donate a lung while alive. That makes my chest hurt. I'd give my lung to a stranger because if I knew the recipient and had to see them, I think it would take my breath away. And take my breath away. So that might be the dumbest joke I'll make this year.

So she's easy. So who runs, who actually runs this system? Who decides where donated organs go? So in the United States, it's a network of groups working together. Back in 1984, Congress passed the National Organ Transplant Act, which created this national system for transplants. And the main player is called the Health Resources and Services Administration. They oversee the organ procurement and transplantation network, basically the hub that connects all the transplant hospitals. And is it up to each transplant hospital to monitor who needs organs? So no. So the United Network for organ sharing works under contract with the health resources and services

administration to manage the national waiting list and the distribution of donated organs through the organ procurement and transplantation network. And then the CMS and the CDC provide additional oversight. So basically we have a government nesting doll of bureaucracy. Yeah. And it's complicated. And that's what creates a lot of systemic inefficiencies. Too many surgeons in the operating room, I think. Pretty much. Yeah. How do they all come together to get donations to people in need. You know, how do they, well, actually, how do they match people in the first place? So your blood type and immune system are key to organ matching.

The organ size, urgency, and location are the other main factors. So it's not like a first come, first served, fixed list that you're on. There's a lot of variables. So the idea of people moving up the list, that's a pretty common myth. Huh. I guess I never really thought too much about this. I did assume it was first come, first serve, you know, you move. the head when somebody else gets their thing. So could you and I theoretically be a match unlikely with all your

rare redhead jeans and stuff? But just theoretically. Maybe we could. I mean, we would first look at our blood type. You know, if you're a type O, that means you're a universal donor. And then A, B is the universal recipient. And let's be real if it was you and I, I'd probably be taking something from you. Okay. Yeah, maybe. Depends. I don't know. You're falling apart over here. So say our blood types match, then what? Then there's the immune system matching, and that is really tricky. So this is to decrease the chance of rejection. And there's tests like the HLA antibody screening and donor recipient serum cross-matching.

They get done to measure compatibility of the donors and recipients' immune systems to see how they'll react to a donated organ. So even that's not perfect, even after testing and transplantation. you may need to take anti-rejection medications. Is there an age cap? Because, like, I don't want a 90-year-old lung, man. True. But there might be a very healthy 90-year-old lung. You don't know.

And if you need one, you're not going to ask how old it is. That's probably true, yeah. But it's the health that matters, not age. And the size matters, too. I knew it. The size of the organ. Yeah, that's what I meant. Oh, no, no.

No, I mean, okay, I can't get around. around it. The organ has to fit the recipient's body. So donors and recipients must have a compatible height and weight. Got it. As an organ that is like too large or too small, that would cause a lot of complications. So what doesn't matter to get you an available organ is race, sex, religion, citizenship, or celebrity status. Yeah, but I always, you know, what if you get a gay heart? Will you become a better dancer? As far as I know, that's untested. All right.

But I will say with the celebrity status, it was just in the news. Selena Gomez has had a living donation. Someone donated a kidney to her. Wow. But now they're dragging her because she didn't invite the donor to her wedding. But like, what do you owe people? She doesn't know who it is probably. Right, exactly.

But I think the donor, you know, is probably looking for some her own fame and made that known, which is so bizarre. That's very odd because you tell me, but aren't there crazy strict confidentiality laws? Like I think you can't know whose organ you have and you can't know who's getting your organ because that opens up shenanigans where it's like you can end up basically somebody could try to buy it from you. Well, correct. Yeah, that slides into the black market. But if your family is going to donate, some people do know.

I mean, I think, again, that's case by case. It's if you're on the list, you don't know. I see. But if it's, oh my gosh, Jordan needs a kidney, I'm giving it to him, then we would go through the test and make it known that I was giving it to you. So it really depends how you do it, if it's from the list or not. And I guess when Selena Gomez needed a kidney, I don't know the exact story, but I would imagine. Everybody wanted, all her fans wanted to help her, you know, so. Yeah.

It's just strange. But, you know, it's also the medical urgency that matters when you're on the list. So a patient's severity of illness is a critical factor, particularly for organs like the heart and lungs. So waiting time also matters. Like the time a patient has spent on the waiting list is a factor, but it's not the only one. Pediatric status is another factor. Children are prioritized, but they have to receive child-sized organs. But some of this I find hard to believe.

Like, you're telling me Oprah's not cutting the line. Come on. Not in the U.S. system. It really doesn't work that way, and that would be so much harder to line up than you think. The physical distance between the organ and the recipient, that's a big factor. So Oprah would have to be ambulance chasing, but only of people with her blood type and body type and compatible immune system. You know, that's not easy to throw money at. And then there are a lot of misconceptions just about how it all works.

So don't get me wrong, even though the system doesn't consider. race or wealth, people with better insurance who live near bigger hospitals, they do have an advantage. So it's not bias in the code. It's bias in the system, you know? I see. So basically, it depends on who dies near me and how alike we are. That still doesn't seem fair because it's just left up to chance, but I mean, you can't really fault anyone for that, I guess. I know, but that's pretty much how it works, you know. And of course, unequal access is baked in. It's not perfect. The organ donation system can fail low-income individuals, but it's because of health insurance inequality. Racial inequalities exist at every stage from being added to a waiting list,

to finding a match. But studies show some of this is because there's more distrust in the health care system in some of those communities. So wealthy, insured, or well-connected patients can receive preferential treatment because they have the action. So with access to care sometimes denied based on non-medical factors like your financial status or criminal history. Wow. What do you mean? Well, people who have lower socioeconomic status, they have lower referral rates and are less likely to give consent to participate in the donation process. And the poorer a person is, the more challenging it is to cover the cost of transplant evaluation, post-transplant evaluation, post-transplant. care and insurance-related co-payments and medications.

Okay, so when an organ becomes available and is matched, what actually happens? Who gets it? Walk me through how the system matches an organ to somebody. Okay, so the United Network for Organ Sharing runs a national computer system that evaluates match runs. It generates a ranked list based on urgency, meaning who's the sickest or closest to death? Then they consider the size, the blood type, and the general. geography. So transplant centers have about an hour to accept or decline the organ. It's really high

stakes. Hearts have four hours to get to a new body, livers maybe six, and that's if they don't get stuck behind some guy in TSA with too much shampoo. While we figure out how to overnight a pancreas, here's something else that delivers faster. We'll be right back. Don't forget about our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It delivers pretty much every Wednesday, and it is a great companion to the show, something practical, something you can apply right out of the box. You love reading this, I know, because many of you hit reply, and that reaches me directly. Go ahead and go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. That's where you can find it. I would love to hear from you, and I would love to know what you think of the newsletter. All right. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday.

So I'm imagining somebody at every hospital is sitting there, and their full-time 24-7 job, like this desk is just staffed with somebody who, this thing comes in and a little alarm goes off, and they're like, Bing, and they look at the patient record, and they maybe confirm with the doctors, or the ICU nurses, and they're like, is this guy ready? And they're like, hit the, this is, I would be so curious to see how this works. Because if you've got an hour, that you have a lot to arrange in an hour to prep a patient for surgery, fly an organ in on like a helicopter or something. It sounds so stressful.

And also, like, is the doctor that does this currently in the hospital scrubbed up and clean? Because, like, if not, call that guy right now, right? And, like, police escort to the hospital. Exactly. And if you're the patient, sometimes you would have been in a condition yesterday to receive a donation, but maybe not today. I mean, there's just so much to think about in that hour. Jeez.

This is like the most stressful Tinder. Yeah, kind of. Why would a hospital swipe left on an organ, for example? Does that ever happen? Yeah, it does for sure. I mean, and it's for all the matching reasons we spoke about. So the transplant center can say this organ isn't healthy enough for this patient. it's too risky, or the organ's not the right size, or it has unacceptable antigens for this particular

patient. So it's based on their patient's current medical status, the organ's condition, and then logistics. So if the transplant center's medical team declines the organ for any of those reasons, it's then offered to the next candidate on the ranked list. And this process continues until a transplant Center accepts the organ or the list it's exhausted. Like sometimes they just can't find a recipient and the organ is given for research, if authorized by the family, or it's simply just not recovered at all. So the system is designed to be ethical and impartial. A lot of times the problem isn't the matching. The problem is getting the organ to the patient in time. How long can an organ last once it's out of the body? I mean, that depends. So kidneys,

can survive up to 36 hours on ice. Wow. Yeah, hearts and lungs only last about four to six hours. They do make these pump machines that can stretch that. So a liver on ice might last six to ten hours, but on a pump, it'll last 24 hours. And transport really matters. According to estimates, three percent of wasted organs were the result of transportation issues. So the distance between the donor and the recipient hospital is a crucial consideration. You can't throw an organ on a Greyhound bus and just like hope for the best, you know? Yeah, that would suck. I mean, I get frustrated waiting for Amazon, but they're, at least they're not shipping my liver. Right. It's actually quite amazing that organs can last really any significant amount of time outside the body. I know. It's wild. And transport works differently in

every country, but the necessity led specifically in Italy. It led the Italian police to transport organs like an action movie. So to save crucial time during a transplant, Italian police use this specially equipped Lamborghini to deliver donated organs. Wow. The car can speed the organ to its destination much faster than traditional transport,

which is especially important for organs with a short preservation time, like hearts. There's so many, I want to see this in action, right? And I'm imagining some Italian guy with like a special painted police whatever, Lamborghini with a refrigerated trunk with a kidney in it, going 180 miles an hour down curvy mountain roads, stopping for an espresso and a cigarette,

and then continuing back on the road to deliver this somewhere. How do you get that job? Is it like retired race car drivers? I don't know. I don't know. It probably is like cops and or medical personnel who like, it's got to be one of the most coveted positions, right? You get to drive with reckless abandoned, actually like all Italians, but you won't get in trouble for it. In fact, you get paid to do it.

You cannot get pulled over, yeah. That's right. Yeah, you literally, if the police try to pull you over, you're just like, hey, there's police behind me. Call them off. Yeah, I think they would more likely just give you an escort because if they can keep up. Yeah, if you look up the car, it's very obvious. It's a special Lamborghini. Yeah, I kind of want to see that.

So this stuff's not taught in med school, I'm guessing. This is like fast and furious ICU drift. Right, right. It helps that solid organs don't need nerve reconnection. That's why those organs can last so long. So, okay, I don't know much about, clearly, I don't know much about the body, but I assume that just means the nerves grow back on their own somehow. That's actually incredible.

It really is. And yeah, that's how it works. They don't have to attach each little nerve. So rejection still happens if the immune system attacks the organ. and then the organ is damaged beyond use. Right. So the body kind of ghosts the donor. It sees it as an outside thing that doesn't belong there and then.

Right. And that's what all they're testing is for the compatibility to just make sure as best they can that that won't happen. But it still does, though. I see. And organs are different from other transplants involving limbs. That's where nerve connection is vital for function. So those transplants are more complicated. Yeah.

I would imagine it's kind of pointless to have an arm or a hand if it's just limp and sitting there. Exactly. Yeah. Wow. I have so many questions. First, if I'm an organ donor, this is probably really dumb, but some people think this, I guarantee you. Are doctors going to not try as hard to save me?

It's like, oh, he's dying. He's an organ donor. So many people think that. There's a whole George Carlin bit about it. Yeah. I mean, it's just completely false. Doctors fight just as hard for every patient. Sure.

An organ donation is only considered after every life-saving option has failed. I mean, a fun fact is the hospital is typically not even aware of the patient's registry status. The info is typically pulled by an organ procurement organization and provided to the hospital after death. So the organ procurement organizations have access to the state and national registry that doctors do not. Right. I want to believe that's how doctors. I don't think, it just, it seems a little too far-fetched to me that a doctor would let someone die to get their organs. That's too pessimistic. I know. And I mean, you have to have some faith in humanity and the Hippocratic Oath here, but doctors aren't villains. Doctors don't

get bonuses for organs. No one is letting you die to grab your kidney. It just doesn't make any sense. Right. Okay. So for donors, people who are selfless enough to offer themselves after they die, how does it affect their families? I'm hoping they There's no cost to the people I leave behind because I've heard, again, from the same, like, anti-organ donation dummies online. Oh, your family has to pay for the organ donation, which makes no sense to me whatsoever. Yeah, that's not true. That's another weird myth. I'm not sure where it stems from, but no, it's free, no bills, no charges.

If you register to be an organ donor, there are absolutely no charges to your family or your estate. You know, it's funny. I know a guy who this guy used to run this app called Burner. I don't know if he still does, but he was like a really smart guy. And I think he used to work at Yahoo. And he was so anti-organ donation. He's like, oh, it's all a racket and the hospitals make money and the doctors. It was like the dumbest. A lot of smart people think really dumb things, especially about topics like this. I don't really get it. And then they hear it from somebody they trust who's really, they think is really smart. Yeah, just, I know a lot of people think that. It's unfortunate. Okay. So there's no charges to your family. your estate if you die and donate a bunch of your organs. Finally something in health care, that's free. All right. So my appendix costs $20,000 to take out, but my kidney is just free to give away. Yeah, that makes sense. That's how it works. What about age? I joked earlier about the 90-year-old lung, but are elderly people donating? I mean, it seems like that's a lot of the people who die are, you know, old. Yeah, right. I mean, people of all ages can donate. And it's the health

of the organ that matters, not your age. So anyone at any age can donate. You have to be 18 to register, but donations get worked out at all ages. So people, unfortunately, of all ages are waiting for transplants. And people from senior citizens and to newborns have been organ donors. Many states allow people under 18 to register as organ donors on, it's sort of going to need on what's needed. but their families will make the final decision if they pass away before turning 18. But most donors are over 60. So grandma could save your butt, literally. Is it painful for the donor?

I mean, that's probably a dumb question because I guess a lot of the time you're dead. But I'm obviously talking about living donors. I mean, of course, you know, it's not risk-free. It is surgery. But for living donors, the process is carefully managed. You know, risks are minimal. In addition to organs, you can donate blood. I mean, I think most of us have done that.

That's not painful unless you're scared of needles. You can donate platelets. You're a bone marrow donor. You can donate veins. I mentioned before corneas and skin and tissue. And thanks to advances in medicine and technology, the list of what we can donate continues to grow. So most recently, faces and hands have been approved for transplants.

Wait. Faces. I've heard about hands, but faces. This is a John Travolta Nick Cage movie except worse, which is a really, that's, maybe not worse. No, nothing's really going to be worse than a John Travolta Nick Cage movie. But, okay, face donation. Right. This isn't plastic surgery.

It's getting it from someone else. So in 2012, a man in Virginia received what was then the most extensive full face transplant. ever. So he survived losing his lips and nose from a gunshot in 1997. He got a new jawbone, teeth, tongue, facial tissue, and he got it all done in one 36-hour surgery, completely new face. That is crazy. What is freak? You're waking up with somebody else's face or knowing that your face is walking around on a stranger. It's crazy. Dang. Okay, so that was successful. It was. And within a week, of his transplant, this 37-year-old guy who'd been wearing a mask since his accident, he could perform activities such as shaving and brushing his teeth. You know, he recovered quicker than they

expected. And, you know, basically they just restored the entire facial function and form. There's a joke in here somewhere because shaving is such a pain in the ass, right? Right. He's like, oh, I'll talk, I have to do that again. Congrats, so you have a face and it's like, uh, but you kind of need shave and you're like, oh, you couldn't figure that out, eh? Whose hair is this? Yeah, I don't. Yeah, like, ugh. When I check the donor box, I'm saying it's cool to give my face away. Wow, that is just crazy. Can I pick and choose what I'm willing to donate? I'll give it all away when I'm dead, but I think some people get freaked out. They don't want to donate.

Oh, yeah. I've heard somebody say they don't want to donate their eyes because they don't want somebody looking at stuff they don't want to see. And it's like, that's not how it works. One of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life, but okay. But yes, you can pick can choose. So each state has a registry and you can go online and pick whatever organs you'll be willing to part with. So you can specify if you want it to be for transplants or only medical research or education. So. Okay. Yeah. I want to leave a note to the person he gets my face that says, you're welcome, you handsome devil. I want to be one of those body worlds exhibit. Just standing there, horrifying people, but.

Scaring children. Yeah, right, the middle school field trip or whatever. But what's an interesting debate about organ donation is opt in or opt out. So here in the U.S., we opt in, right? You have to actively register to be an organ donor. But many countries have an opt-out system, meaning you're a donor unless you officially say otherwise. This is such a weird thing because it seems like with the stroke of a pen, you could basically solve the whole, hey, we don't have enough. organs problem. Right. Because I'm going to go ahead and guess that the majority of people die

never having thought about this for one solitary second, especially the people who don't die of old age natural causes. You know, if you're just out driving and you get in a car crash, it's like, I was going to opt in, I don't know, later or something. It's just like, why is it an opt-in system? Makes no sense. It's got to have something to do with our sort of puritanical background. I don't know. I'd be curious about that. So in other countries, the government assumes ownership, and unless you file the right paperwork saying you don't want your organs to get donated. That is a huge ethical debate. Is that overreach or not?

I don't know. And what about family members? Can they override your choice somehow? Legally no. If you're over 18 and registered, that's legally binding upon death. But even here, families sometimes complicate things. So some organ procurement organizations will still ask families for consent. that can sometimes override the donor's wishes, but that doesn't really happen that often.

If there is opposition, then that's taken on a case-by-case basis. So you should talk about it. You should let your family know if you're registered to avoid any hospital drama. Yeah, I'm still trying to convince my parents because they're just kind of like, nah. But it's like, do you have a reason or you just didn't fill out the paper because you don't, quote, unquote, have time even though you watch seven hours of TV every day? All right. So you said there's no cost, but what about compensation? There's probably a lot going on here. But should donors or their families be compensated? Are their funds for this kind of thing? Do they incentivize it at all? I mean, this is just another ethical minefield. So on the one hand, pun intended, paying for organs could lead to exploitation. But some argue compensation might reduce black markets because if donors were legally compensated for donating organs, It would increase the legitimate supply and reduce the demand that fuels all the illegal organ trafficking.

Philosophers debate this all the time. Are we morally obligated to give until it hurts or is donation an act of choice not duty? Give until it hurts. Not a great slogan for organ. That might be why only 60% of Americans have opted in. Why do you think most people hesitate to register? To me, I bet it's just laziness and not having thought about it. it's a freaky thing to think about, you know, but I think it's a lot of things. It's natural to

think organ donation is weird. It is weird. It's amazing we can even do it. And it's an uncomfortable thing to think about. There's fear. There's mistrust. There's all these medical myths. But successful transplants have been happening since 1954 when a liver was transplanted in Boston. It's not a thing that can be normalized, though. And I just don't think people, realize how many lives they can actually save by checking that box, you know? Yeah, it's just such a profound question of do we owe each other or anything or is it just a noble choice? I think in a lot of traditions, religion or whatever has made the choice for people, right? Actually, most major religions support organ donation. Oh, wow. Yeah, of course there's some

communities that hesitate or there's specific cultural and spiritual beliefs that might play a role. But the majority of belief systems, all the main organized religions, they all support organ donation. I remember a teacher in middle school and she claimed to refuse on religious grounds and we were like, hey, I want some clarity on this. I remember this is like seventh grade. And 2020 hindsight, she was just a selfish coward because her main issues were not like, well, in my tradition, it was like, it's weird, it's icky. I don't want somebody to take out my eyes. And I was like, you're dead. You're not going to need them, dude. No, but we don't ever like to think.

think about ourselves as dead. But like, how precious are you about your dead rotting carcass? For God's sake. And malpractice fears don't help people hear, you know, horror stories like organs removed before death from people who didn't consent or they amputate the wrong leg. And you're like, no, they took all my kidneys. I mean, that's what sticks in people's minds, right? Yeah, it's true.

I mean, and the sad part is there have been these terrible cases. And the exploitation is a real issue. You know, in poorer regions, people can be pressured to sell onto the black market, and that leads to serious health and mental health consequences. Even medical staff and funeral homes can get caught up in the pressure. There's inequities in access and wealth that can affect outcomes, but within the legitimate system here, donation is safe and it's fair and it's vital. So you just have to do it the right way. But just to be clear, there are organizations that pay for organs. Is that right? No, no, not legally.

Okay. U.S. federal law bans payments for organs. So if someone offers money, that's the black market. Yeah, actually, I covered this a long time ago with a human rights lawyer, episode 497 on illegal organ traffic. That was mostly focused on China, I think. I mean, it's been a long time. But that was kind of a, there was a whole thing with China doing it. And there was like a China memo that this guy wrote.

Anyway, yeah, there's a lot of that going on. There was. I don't know if it still happens. I'm going to guess it does. Yeah, and they're the stories that stick with people and scare people. So, yes, it's dangerous. Right. Getting paid for organs is illegal.

And it's nothing like how the real system works. Legitimate organ donation is not shady. So give it up, you guys. Yeah, I don't want a rogue surgeon at a motel stick swapping my liver for a few thousand bucks. That's understandable, but you're speaking of the liver, let's talk about how absolutely incredible our livers are. You can donate up to two-thirds of your liver and both pieces, the part donated and what's left of yours, will regrow to full size in about six weeks. All right, let me, let me counter. Why don't I donate one-third, which is what I would have been keeping, and then you regrow my liver to full-size in about six weeks.

Why am I the donor stuck? I guess because I'm the healthy one. But wow, it's like salamander parts. That is crazy. I know. It's more like a starfish, actually. So the regenerative ability makes the liver the longest lasting transplanted organ. Sometimes it even outlives the recipient.

And a deceased donor's liver can be split in two and saved two lives. I wonder if there's ever been a person who gets a liver transplant, lives with it for a while, dies. They take that out, split it. into two, give it to two more people. I can tell you, no. No? No. You can't.

That's not a thing? That's not a thing. I mean, if a organs used and connects with a different human, it's not going to work a second time. Oh, really? Yeah. And if it's, same if it's rejected. If you get a transplant, your body.

Well, then it's damaged. Yeah. Then it's damaged. Right. Yeah. I guess maybe it goes through hell and back being put into a new human and then actually kicking up and restarting. I was curious about that, but it's, they.

Whether, I mean, I don't think it would work, but they definitely don't do that. Man, that's still amazing. But I'm guessing not every organ does this, right? That's a unique to the liver kind of deal. Correct. Yeah, no other organ regenerates. A deceased donor kidney, for example, lasts about 10 years. So a living donation can last about 15 to 20. And here's something really odd. This means a person might receive several kidneys in their lifetime. And surgeons don't remove the old ones. They just stack the new ones on top. Wait. So people are walking around with extra kidneys on each side. So somebody could have like three or four kidneys. Yeah, the kidneys only removed if it causes problems and doesn't seem to cause problems that often. So, yeah, some people have three, even four kidneys. That does kind of make sense. Why take one out if it's operating at 30% capacity? You might need that.

Right. Jeez. Imagine the TSA guy looking at the x-ray. Like, sir, you appear to be smuggling kidneys inside your body. That's just got to look so weird. Try and explain that. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm so vain. I'm like, how much would that add to my body weight? Yeah, no, that's funny. That's funny. Like, oh, are my pants still going to fit if I have an extra kidney on each side? Pass. There's also a cool thing called domino chains, and that's built on an altruistic donation, which triggers a whole series of matches.

So the concept was pioneered at Johns Hopkins, and it takes a group of incompatible donor-recipient pairs and links them with other pairs in a similar situation. So like, if you needed a kidney and no one you knew was a match, you're basically put on the waiting list for a match to pop up. But this domino chain connects all the willing donors to people in need. So I might not be a match for you, but I might match with someone on the East Coast and their incompatible loved one matches with you. So it's this little swap going on. I mean, it's astounding how many lives can be touched by this selflessness. and the longest donation chain was in 2012 when 60 people were matched and it resulted in 30 new kidneys.

Wow, that is the most complicated chain letter, but that's the kind of chain reaction we like around here. Yeah, it's happened several times. There was a six-person kidney swap in April 2008, then a 16-person chain the next year. It's a way to not get on the list if you can make it happen, you know. Wow, that's incredible. Do people ever need multiple different organs at the same time? Yes, it's not uncommon for a patient to receive a liver kidney transplant or a heart kidney combo. Definitely happens. Sometimes it includes even more. In 2012, doctors gave a nine-year-old girl six organs in one surgery.

Wow. It was about a 16-hour surgery and she got a new stomach, liver, spleen, small intestine, pancreas, and part of an esophagus. part of an esophagus. Why is esophagus the most surprising one out of all these, but it is somehow. I know. I couldn't even read why she needed all of this, but it was a horrible accident. I was like, I probably don't want to know, yeah. But it was the first ever esophageal transplant, and she survived. I can't find any updates on her, but I think I tracked her down on social media. And if it was the right person, she's in grad school for architecture and doing just fine. Incredible yet terrifying somehow.

And more terrifying, not all donations come from humans. So it's called xenotransplantation, and it's heavily researched now, and it's experimented with all the time. This is animal organs transplanted into humans. I think we've all read the headlines about this here and there, yeah? Yeah, exactly. And it's mostly done with pigs. So our organs are similar, and genetic editing makes them less likely to be reduced. And if you're wondering like me, why don't we just use chimps?

Yes, I was wondering that, actually. It's proved to always have severe immune rejection. Like, our organs might be the same, but our immune systems are not compatible. It's really weird. Interesting. Yeah. Fecal transplants are real. It's science.

It's disgusting, but it works. You can't buy health like that. Though you can buy this, which is way less disgusting. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable from the website or on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.

That is interesting. So pigs already, man, they gave us bacon and footballs. Now they're lending us organs. Those are altruistic overachievers, those pigs. And pigs have been part of medicine for decades. My own father had a pig valve put in his heart in like the early 2000s. Wow, farmed table cardio. Yeah, more or less.

But pig heart valves go back to the 1960s. And the first full pig to human heart transplant was done just in 2022. In 2024, doctors in Massachusetts performed the first transplant of a pig kidney into a living human. That is so recent. There has to be so much here as far as the role of genetic editing and all that stuff. Yeah, it's intense. And the pig organs are genetically edited to remove genes that would cause a patient's immune system to reject the organ immediately. And human genes are also added to the pig organs to further increase the chances of the human body accepting the transplant. It's still experimental and it's very rarely used. It's specifically for patients just, with no other options. But pig to human hearts, kidneys, even lungs are happening. And the primary reason for xenotransplantation is just the critical shortage of human organs available. What about limbs? No one's walking around on pig hooves like some production of animal farms. So obviously it's limited in what we can take from these. Of course. In New Zealand,

this guy, Clint Hollum, he lost his hand in a saw accident while he was incarcerated. And he later became the first recipient of a transplanted hand in 1999. So although he requested to have that hand removed a few years later when it became, as he said, mentally detached from it. Okay. What does that even mean? I'm not sure. It was... This guy is not all there. Yeah, yeah. It was, but it really messed with him. But since then, surgeons have done double arm and double leg transplants. And since that's a lot for the cardiovascular system to support. There have been failed triple and quadruple limb transplants, but right now, double transplants seem to be the limit.

This is all quite impressive, but when you say failed, I mean, I think about all the wasted organs and the lost shipments and the other horror stories of all this. I know. I mean, I'm trying to focus on the positive, but the rare and shocking cases exist. There are misses, and that's where the ethical framing really matters. So bioethics is full of stories of people declared dead when they weren't.

I see. Okay, nothing inspires confidence in a system like the phrase, oops, he wasn't dead yet. But while, patients are declared dead too soon, how does that happen? That's horrible. A lot of this involves brain dead patients, and it just leads to a discussion in bioethics that shows how complicated defining death can be. But as far as organ donation, there are cases like in Kentucky in terms. 2021 where a man was wheeled into the operating room for organ recovery.

But then the staff realized he was moving and crying. Oh, my God. The surgery was stopped, but it was chaos. That is everybody's nightmare. Just awake on the table and they got the saw out and they're about to start harvesting. Like, oh, my God. They're not going to give you anesthesia if they think you're dead. No, that's a good point.

I didn't even think about that. Oh, gosh, gross. Yeah. I mean, it's just all so sci-fi. And no one was acting nefariously there or trying to sell the organs or anything. It's just that sometimes people are accidentally declared dead. It really does happen. And it's cases like this that undermine public trust.

Yes. Because that's what makes the headlines, not all the success stories. So combine that with wasted organs, tens of thousands of organs that are lost to mismanagement and outdated tech. And there's a lot of systemic failures. Yeah, so this is just bad oversight. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, organ procurement organizations aren't always held accountable for underperformance, and that's led to thousands of preventable deaths.

So there's outdated databases. Somehow organs get lost. It's a mess, and it causes fewer people to register. So some reforms are happening, but there's a layer of difficulty, given an increase of mistrust, just overall with our health agencies. If people weren't convinced before, I guess it's not getting easier. I know. But the current health and human services have started cracking down on organ procurement organizations and have even completely shut one down in Florida for failing across the board. So for all other organizations, they added a new oversight agency called the Patient Safety Officers.

This just seems to be an organization that only tracks the mistakes and the negatives. I'm not sure if these officers build trust in anything, you know, sign up to donate your organ might get lost in shipping. Maybe it'll be harvested from somebody who's alive accidentally, but don't worry, we keep a spreadsheet after the fact. That's just not the best sales pitch. Right. And organ procurement system officials, transplant surgeons and others, they say that there are strict protocols in place to prevent unsafe organ retrieval from happening. But there are scandals. You know, there was a congressional. hearing that actually triggered a drop in new donors. Of course, nothing kills confidence like Congress. Right. But some argue the system's being unfairly smeared. I tend to lean that way. That's just way more life-saving instances than these crazy stories you hear.

But others say, hey, these cases aren't isolated. So there's watchdog groups, like one called Organize, and they claim near misses happen a lot more than people think. there was a report of a surgeon who stopped mid-surgery when the supposedly dead patient breathed on the table. Yeah, that's a living donation. You might want to reattach some tubes and shit over there, Doc. I know. The story's crazy because the organ procurement organization rep wanted to keep going.

Of course. But the surgeon refused. So it just raises a whole bunch of debates about defining death. And also, I mean, these organizations say it happens a lot more, but I couldn't find, you know, countless cases of this happening. So, but it does happen. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's really the worst trolley problem.

Like, do we cut open this maybe a live guy to save three others? That's not medical drama. That's just a horror movie nightmare. And, oof, yeah. I mean, it's important to remember organ transplantation starts with good intentions and fascinating medical capability. So the very first transplant was of a cornea in 1905, which is just wild. They could do that so long ago. Yeah.

And since then, we've done everything, wounds, ovaries, even thumbs made from toes to give people a better quality of life. It just seems to me that far more good is done than bad. Oh, we're going back to thumbs made from toes. But wow, womb transplants, that's like next level surrogacy. I know. The first successful womb transplant happened in Turkey in 2011. A woman was born without a uterus and she received one from a deceased donor and it worked. She menstruated normally and in 2020 she gave birth to a very healthy baby. Wait, so they also moved the ovaries over? Yeah, ovaries too. And you can get just the ovaries as well. So in 2007, a woman received her twin sister's ovary. and gave birth a year later.

So frozen ovarian tissue has been successfully transplanted after cancer treatments. It's amazing. Science is really nuts, man. Okay. Tell, let's, we got to talk about this toe to thumb thing. So surgeons take your big toe and they attach it to your hand. Okay. And it is more common than you imagine.

So it's all about function over beauty. One, one guy said it looked like a cartoon thumb. smashed with a mallet. Totally. But he could work again, so he didn't care. And it's not the new thumb that causes issues. Patients normally go through a period of learning to rebalance and figuring out how to shift their weight onto the balls of their feet rather than their big toes.

But their hands are fine. Man, I'm staring at my hand trying to imagine that, and I do not like it. I do not like it. I can't imagine donating my toe because recipient be like, why is this, why do I have to shave my thumb? And what is that smell? Just so gross. Like, sorry you got to use a Gillette Mock 3 on your thumb every few days, bro. I think people tend to use their own toes.

I'm not sure. I see. That makes more sense. You get a stranger's toe, but maybe. Yeah. I mean, would you take a penis transplant? No, I'm good. It's only downgrades from here.

No, I'm saying? Well, there was a penis transplant that was successfully done in 2006. And it functioned. He could pee normally after. He even had sex. But the psychological trauma was too much for him and for his wife. And the surgeon said it was just beyond any of their imagination. And after just 15 days, he had it removed.

15 days, psychological trauma of having a different penis was too much. So now he has no penis? I'm sorry. I don't know. 15 days. 15 days is a. Dick trial period. Yeah.

Gross. Okay. And after that, after that, he's just what? He's just dickless? That was a better solution for him. So, and if you want to get even grosser, there are poop transplants. Please tell me that's not real. I don't want to know who volunteers to be a poop donor.

Those people are next level kinky. It's very real. So fecal transplants treat severe bacterial infections. Oh, I've heard of this. Yeah. Yeah. And by restoring healthy gut bacteria, it just gives you new crap, you know? And medicine is magic.

It is, but I bet that's not so popular on the black market. I guess here's the thing. For poop, though, supply, virtually unlimited. No shortage. Not waiting for, no shortage. Hang around this house for a while, like a few hours and you're in luck. But with this scarcity of other organs, there's got to be so much shady business. I know we kind of touched on this before, but like...

Yeah, I mean, there's actually transplant tourism. outside the U.S. and wealthy patients are buying kidneys abroad. This ends up exploiting the poor overseas and fueling more of the illegal organ trafficking. So yeah. Exactly. What a vacation package. Five nights in Beijing and a new kidney, all inclusive. China! There's a global black market, though, and a lucrative transnational black market thrives on just the desperate need for organs. I mean, if it's life or death, you're going to do crazy stuff. And so criminal networks, they profit by exploiting these vulnerable people, especially in impoverished regions. And worse, there's allegations of forced organ harvesting, including from prisoners

in some countries. Yeah, we've all kind of heard of waking up in a tub of ice, you know, fake horror movie scenario, urban legend. Yeah. In some instances, individuals have been subjected to organ removal without their consent. This seems to happen more outside the U.S., but it can happen here. And victims are just unaware of what's happening. Some countries are accused of systematically harvesting organs from their political prisoners. I mean, it does get horrifying when you start to look at those stories, but the desperation, it makes you do crazy stuff. And people travel to other countries, but the standards aren't always ethical. You mentioned China before, they are popular for this,

and they claim it's all voluntary donations, but the thing with them, they offer no transplant data. So there's a lot of investigations that suggest prisoners alive and executed are targeted for forced organ harvesting. Yeah, if I remember, and I did that episode, it was episode, what is it, 497 or whatever it was, this is years and years and years and years ago, but one of the telltale signs was we have an,

I think our average waiting period for an organ was like X number of days or weeks, and the waiting period for an organ in China was like a day. His investigation or this NGO investigation from the UN was basically just kind of like, the only way that's possible is if X number of people are dying, probability-wise, and we know that that's not happening because that's like a huge percentage of the population, even in a country like China. So that means they're finding somebody who is a match. Like you basically can't, once you do the math, it becomes impossible that they're just randomly finding dead people that they can harvest these from who have died from natural causes, right?

Because it's too short of a period. And also the thing with that, because they don't have data, how well are they matching? What is the success rate with those donors? I can't really find too much about that. I don't know. But if they're selling that, there was a documentary I watched to prep that episode. And I mean, if you have a bunch of prisoners, political or otherwise, and you've got their immune system tested, their genetic testing done, their blood typing done, if everything's typed in a file, if someone needs an organ, they just go, today's your lucky day, pal. I mean, I can't imagine the ticking clock of being on that list, right?

They just go, hey, somebody flew in from Korea. They want your organ. Today is your day to die of natural causes. Sorry. And they just sell it. Yeah. It's so freaky. We have humans do weird things.

I mean, this is all alleged, but it's a, you know, it's a big investigation. This is not like kookery. Right. Oh, no. There's a lot of research that suggests that's happening. And another psychological kicker is that recipients sometimes report personality changes. So it's all anecdotal as well, but some recipients report they have new cravings, new moods, even feeling connected to their donor. You better feel connected to give you my liver, bro. And studies show up to 85% of recipients report some kind of shift, though science hasn't confirmed any of this. Very scientific, some kind of shift. I've had some kind of shift. So what, you get a new heart, suddenly you're into jazz. By the way, I knew having a gay heart would make me a better dancer. I told you. Maybe I better stick to hetero organs for now if I don't want any side effects.

You've got to be careful whose organs you get. I don't know. The good news is you're alive. The bad news is now you're a power bottom. Sorry. You're actually not far off for what people say. So there's a story of some man suing because after his transplant, he claimed he became interested in what he described as feminine hobbies. Okay.

Another woman claims after receiving a heart lung transplant from a male donor, she got really into beer and chicken nuggets. Okay. I mean, like I said, there's no science to back this stuff up. Right. I would think that before transplant, your life has a lot of limitations due to your health. So a lot of things would be different in your behavior. Yeah.

Yeah, come on. Like, oh, I never liked beer before. You were dying. Okay? You were allowed to drink. You couldn't go to the bar. Chicken nuggets? No, you were being fed through a tube in your nose, pal.

Like, of course you're into beer and chicken nuggets. celebrate, live a little, for God's sake. And also this guy who's like, oh, way of feminine hobbies, like, give me a break. Thanks for the liver, bro. Now I'm into baking. Like, you don't need to make an excuse that it's the organ transplant. It's okay to like things that your dude bros with truck nuts think are a little bit effeminate, dude. You just got caught up.

You fly that flag. Live your life, sir. He got caught knitting and was like, it's not me. It's because I got that lung from that old lady. Nitting's relaxing, okay? Hey, get out of here. I think... Leave me alone.

I think the more likely explanation seems to be just the sheer emotional weight of the gift. It's not some like freaky Friday situation. But, yeah, there is ongoing research into whether cells carry systemic memory even. People... I... There was a guy... Collar music guy.

Like, what reason would my liver cells have to be like, oh, by the way, he really enjoys electronic music? Like, I... Yeah. Well, there was a guy who... was an organ donor and he was shot in the face and killed. And the recipient who got his organs claimed he would have nightmares about being shot in the face or like had the memory of the guy being shot in the face. Okay, but he knew that the donor was shot in the face. So that's like,

like I said, it's all very anecdotal. But yeah, you know. I imagine the living donors also face psychological challenges. I just, I think this all starts long before the donation. Just the decision to be a donor could probably mess with you too, the stress of the surgery. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff like that. Of course. That's why people don't sign up because that that's where it begins, is checking that box, the psychology of it all. And after the fact, donors can face regret. Like if you get fired from your job for donating and your liver to your boss. Well, sometimes there's just lack of long-term support for the donor. Recipients, they get a new life. But donors also are getting surgery and sometimes they just get like a thank you card.

Brough. With no financial reward, man, donors are really unsung heroes. But where do we go from here? It seems like you could incentivize this without sort of introducing corruption, but maybe not. Yeah, I mean, reform is on the table for sure. So the United Network for organ sharing is pushing for automated donor referrals, mandated in-cabin airline transport for organs and just modernized tracking to prevent. waste. Wait, we don't at least have like a freaking air tag on every liver, heart, kidney that's flying the friendly skies? It's just checked luggage. No. The donation process in the U.S. especially is way behind the technology. Yeah, we make organs get checked in the undercarriage of planes. Dude, they don't even make me check my luggage where they're like, like, hey, it's carry on size. Yeah. Hey, you with the liver and the cooler. Belli, just come, wait in line and check that thing. Like everybody. That's insane. They let me put my guitar.

in the flight attendant closet. Yeah, they're like, it's fragile and valuable. Oh, yeah, chuck that kidney in the, they'll get rid of that thing. I mean, just in the U.S., we just have so many hoops within the health insurance system for patients, too. But that being said, Sweden's already transplanted a synthetic trachea lined with a patient's stem cells. Wow. No rejection drugs were needed. So that kind of tech, I hope, I think, will expand to kidneys, hearts.

and livers eventually. So are we 3D printing organs now, like Control P, new kidney? Because that's remarkable. Pretty much. Yeah. Except instead of ink, it's your own cells. So we're not at full organs yet, but we can print skin and cartilage. And the big challenge with this is building the blood vessels that actually work.

So the future is pigs, printers, poop. Science is remarkable and a little bit disgusting. I know. But it means fewer wasted livers and fewer people dying on the list. You know, it's weird and disgusting, but that's better than death, right? Definitely. And the bottom line is every donor can save at least eight lives and help dozens more with tissue donations. So it's just a chance to help another human, even though the system's not perfect.

If you take anything away from this episode, make sure it's not my lung. I'm still using it. But this is so interesting, Jessica. I know, I know, I know. But organ donation works. I just really want to emphasize that. It saves lives. Yes, thank you.

And it's terrifying for everyone involved, but we just need to talk about it. You know, it's interesting to think about and let it force us to ask the big questions. What do we really owe each other? Well, Jess, I don't want your womb. But if I die, my family should auction off my toes. Learn how you all can make a life-changing difference through living donor organ transplantation. the link will be in the show notes. Jess, thank you so much.

This is really just, it's fascinating. And it's, it is heartening, no pun intended, that you can do this kind of stuff and that it's getting easier. It's just, man, the human body's amazing. Science is amazing. I know. I know.

It's freaky to talk about, but it helps for sure. And thank you all for listening as well. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show,

all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. Jessica, you can find on her substacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to those in the show notes as well. This show has created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger,

Jase, Sanderson, Tadasidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. We also try to get these as right as we can, not everything is gospel, even if it's fact-checked. So please consult a podcast. professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health

and well-being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by something you should know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts

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