The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1271: Buzzing Teen Question Has Mom Second-Guessin' | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

Your 15-year-old just made a request that would make your church-raised mother faint. How do you parent without the shame spiral? It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1271On This Week's Feedback Friday:Your 15-year-old daughter approached you with a request that left you speechless — she wants help purchasing something to explore her own body safely. You escaped purity culture and want better for her, but where exactly do healthy boundaries live in this uncharted territory? What does a sex-positive parenting expert have to say? [Thanks to Dr. Linda Baggett for helping us with this one!]Your sister-in-law has burned through a $100k inheritance on vacations, alienated the entire family with vicious voicemails, and is now hunting down your daughter's friends to badmouth everyone who's cut her off. You've been nominated as the family's designated messenger of doom — but how do you deliver a "we're done forever" speech with compassion?You've weathered seven moves, two abortions, and a trailer lifestyle with your husband — but now that you're ready to settle down and start a family, he seems to have ghosted his own future. He told you he didn't believe in marriage, yet you married him anyway. Now you're daydreaming about other relationships — is this marriage salvageable, or are you just delaying the inevitable?Recommendation of the Week: Flighty Flight Tracker AppYou went on a passionate rant about airplane window shade etiquette, and the internet had opinions. From claustrophobic flyers to grandmas photographing clouds to rhinestone-cowboy-hat disco balls — listeners are pushing back hard. Is keeping your shade open a cardinal sin, or are you the unreasonable one?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: BetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordanDeleteMe: 20% off: joindeleteme.com/jordan, code JORDANHomeServe: Find the plan that's right for you: homeserve.comDripDrop: 20% off: DripDrop.com, code JORDANHomes.com: Find your home: homes.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, The Allen Wrench helping me assemble this prefabricated Davenport of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from rocket scientists to four-star generals, gold smugglers to money launders. This week, we had Jamie Mustard, author of Child X. This is a memoir of slavery, poverty, celebrity, Scientology.

I don't mean slavery like plantation slavery. I mean, this is stuff that was happening in the 80s in Scientology. Jamie was born into Scientology on what he called a baby farm. There was forced labor, no education, FBI raids, and a billion-year contract. His story arc is bananas. He's a really interesting guy. We also had an out-of-the-loop last Sunday on Venezuela. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and generally extract our pound of flesh, or in my case today, of Flemm, from the villains in your letters. Speaking of which, Jordan, do you want to tell everybody why you sound like death today? Yeah, I went to a Disney hotel. That's not the whole reason. What a weird flex.

to the Little Mermaid themed palace down in Hawaii. When I sat in the front row at Hamilton, no, so what happened is I decided to take the kids to Hawaii, and I thought, this will be fun, I'll take them to a Disney hotel. You can tell this is not really my idea. Jen decided this. And when we showed up, everyone from staff to every guest was coughing like a barking dog. I'm sure. You say Disney Hotel, I hear RSV sandbox.

Yes. This was a cruise on land. you know, just kids coughing on other kids and then grownups who should know better coughing on kids. Your favorite thing. You're like, I will throat you, sir. That sounds perverted.

But you know what I meant. I mean, I will throat you. I meant throat punch, but I'm not fully operational today. What a weird way. It's like, that's the triple X version. Strange punishment. Yeah.

Yeah. Depends who's getting, depends which, anyway. The other thing that Disney hotels is people trade pins. Like your ATM codes? Yes, just like Oz Perlman, you'll guess your pin code. No, like you'll have a Mickey Mouse pin and someone else has a little mermaid pin or whatever. And so my son is super into this and the staff will give your kids pins if they're being good and cute and then you go trade them at pin trading hour at each store. It's like Disney Pokemon. Yes, but you're touching a bunch of people's

pins and then you pull another pin off the board. And so you're just sharing germs with the entire hotel. And yeah, so basically the kids were one bite in, which, is all they ate, of course, to their $70 waffles at the character breakfast. And I was like, I'm getting sick for sure. And the next day, I was just sick. Yeah, I had what I have now, which is weird because I don't feel bad. Like you can hear, I still have energy. But my voice and my lungs are like, yeah, we're just operating at 50%.

You know, I got to say, you don't sound bad. It sounds cool, actually. If I could keep the voice without the disgusting cough that when you use it in public, people look at you. Like, I sound like a homeless man on the street from Grand Theft Auto 5. That's what I sound like right now. Like when you walk over one of those veterans who's like, you have anybody for me?

That's what I sound like right now. Like kind of like the rugged like defender. I got to do the defender ads. Defender built from the ground up. You sound like a ram commercial. Built for Duff. That's what I feel like right now. Anyways, whenever I'm in a hotel, Jen's always,

it's cold and I'm like, it's hot. So she turns off the AC and I sit on top of the blankets with like butt naked with sweating and she's like I'm still cold so I slept four hours and four days that essentially was the last nail in the coffin of my immune system so anyway we're going to go along today and I got to keep my voice so let's what's the first thing out of the mailbag dear Jordan and Gabe I'm a wife and mother in my 40s and my 15 year old daughter just asked me if I can buy her a toy for masturbation she won't a toy so she doesn't feel driven to have sex right now, which is a very worthwhile reason, in my opinion.

I'm not necessarily against her having one. I'm just caught completely off guard about how to answer, and I don't want to damage her trust. I told her, I heard her question and need time to process it. She took a leap in being vulnerable with me on such a sensitive subject, and I feel the courage it took for her to say something to me. I never in a million years would have felt comfortable asking my own mother the same question. I grew up in a church culture that told us to stuff our feelings down, that feelings were sinful anyway, and that only rotten sinners had sex before marriage. I didn't even know what masturbation was at her age. While I've done a tremendous amount of healing from purity culture and the religious beliefs that fostered it, and I absolutely repudiate those

tenets, I'm struggling with where boundaries should be, and how to help her establish a healthy sexual self, knowing that I cannot control her. What do you think I should do? Is it okay to buy toys for 15-year-olds? And what are some safe sexual boundaries for parents and teenagers in a situation like this? Signed, hoping you can prime a mother who had to climb out of a background where this stuff just wasn't given airtime

so she can appropriately chime in on her daughter's interest in a little me time. Okay, Gabe, you take this one, I am out. time to consider adoption. That's my professional opinion. That's right. You guys had a good run. Make this somebody else's problem.

I kid, obviously. Well, speak of the kids. Interesting question. Definitely a first for us on the show. This is something I think a lot of parents would struggle with, including me. So I guess I'll take some notes over here. I got to say, my first thought when we read this letter was,

can't she just go buy this product yourself? Why does this need to be a family outing? But then I actually learned in some states, you have to be 18 to purchase a sex toy, which I didn't realize. That makes very little sense to me, honestly. I mean, you don't want a 10-year-old buying this stuff, but like a 16-year-old, a kid can't buy a flashlight or whatever?

I mean, are we really policing that? Anyway, I'm going to assume y'all live in one of those states or counties, and that's why this is the thing. It's also possible that she's asking her mom because she's embarrassed to go on her own or she doesn't know how to go about this, or she's asking her mom for help, not because, you know, like the logistics are a problem, but simply because she wants to be able to talk to her mom about this stuff.

She doesn't want it to be a big secret. Yeah, she feels safe with her. She wants to be open, which I, have to say, is actually sweet in a certain way. I do get the sense that's the real conversation happening here. Good point. And that's really what this letter is about. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this. We reached out to Dr. Linda Baggett, clinical psychologists specializing in women, sexuality, body image, relationships, and trauma. And boy am I happy we have an expert today because there is nothing more cringe than two adult men on a podcast telling a mother whether

she should buy her daughter a vibrating pocket rocket from Adam and Eve. Oh, our friend here is wincing so hard right now. We can't have a laugh about this along the way. I don't know how I'm going to get through it. Anyway, grateful to Dr. Baggett for helping us out here. And the first thing Dr. Baggett said was, it sounds like you handled this conversation very well, all things considered. She also said, and I totally agree,

that really speaks to how far you've come and what a safe, trusting, non-shaming relationship you've built with your daughter that she would even approach you about this. And that when you didn't exactly know how to respond, you asked to take some time to think. You reached out for advice. You didn't shut the conversation down or run away from it. You wanted to handle this in a healthy way, in a positive way. I think all of that is really excellent. Agreed. To quote Dr. Bagot here, that is some great A parenting. So Dr. Bagot had a very clear response to your question. She said it is absolutely okay to help a 15-year-old buy a sex toy.

In fact, she said there are several positive reasons to do so. I know that might take some people by surprise. Took me by surprise a little bit, but I thought her logic was interesting. So first, stuff, Dr. Baggett said that the reality is, girls typically develop sexual desire between 11 and 14. Around half of them engage in some type of sex by age 19, and over half view pornography. That means teen girls are largely learning about sex from pornography and other teens, who are either much more experienced or equally inexperienced. So allowing a teen girl to explore her own body on her own terms without the risk of pregnancy, violence, sexually transmitted infection, heartbreak, in Dr. Baggett's view, that is a gift.

Second, Dr. Baggett believes that that sends the message that sexual desire in the body in general is normal, natural, and nothing to be ashamed of, and it sends the message that sexual pleasure is important for women and that they do not have to depend on someone else for it. In Dr. Baggett's view, those are all positive messages that set teen girls up for emotionally and physically healthy sex lives as adults. Whereas if you said no, that could lead her to feel shame about this and she probably wouldn't come to you with sexual concerns in the future. And Dr. Baggett pointed out she could turn to sexual activities with others or unsafe objects, which is gross to think about, as an alternative. So to quote Dr. Bagot here, if it were me,

I would do it without hesitation. But to be clear, by help her buy one, Dr. Bagot means talk together about it, maybe look together, talk to a salesperson together, find helpful articles together, stuff like that. And then your daughter chooses. Like she's not endorsing you as a mom going out and choosing a sex toy for your daughter. And again, the fact that she asked you for help, that probably suggested she doesn't know how to go about buying one or choosing one. So Dr. Baggett said that if it were her, she'd ask her teen if she wanted help picking one out either from her or another trusted adult, or if she wanted her to point her to articles about how to choose for a beginner and let her do it herself. Now, I want to pause here for a second because Dr. Baggett's take took us a little bit by

surprise, to be honest. Not the whole healthy, open, sex positive approach. We're generally all for that, but for the unequivocal endorsement for helping a child buy a product like this. Just the idea of going together with your daughter to an adult store to buy a vibrator is just, I mean, that's a fun afternoon. I'm just picturing the guy who rings them up going, so what app did you two meet on? And our friends like, oh, no, no, no, no, this is my daughter. Hopefully it's women working at these places. That'll make it easier. I don't know. The one by me is a guy working there. Oh, really? I would love to hear, you know that. It's right next to this taco place I like, okay? Oh, sure. Got it. I'm sure you were there for their carnitas. That's right. Carnitas and K-Y.

Sure. Langosta and lube. Yeah, just don't put those on the same taco. Once again, I would love to know how you know that. Anyway, we asked Dr. Backett about this. Is this a Dr. Baggett's stance, or is this what most mainstream or conventional sex therapists would advise nowadays? And her response was, it's probably somewhere in between. In her experience, most therapists who work with teens, who work with sexuality, trauma,

religious trauma, especially, relationships. They would likely agree with this take provided, again, in Dr. Baggett's experience, that they are current on what is developmentally appropriate for this age. She did acknowledge, though, that there are definitely therapists out there who would be horrified at this idea. But in Dr. Baggett's view, a lot of those folks are probably taking a shaming slash sex negative stance, which, as you can see, is not her style, or they just don't know much about this topic. I also want to highlight Dr. Baggett also qualified that her take would be very different if this were like a nine-year-old kid, or if this mom were pushing her agenda on a teen who hadn't

initiated the conversation, or if there was even a hint of anything abusive or dysfunctional happening. But given the variables here, she believes this is safe and reasonable. And I assume that's obvious, but I just want to be clear. Also, one of those big variables for Dr. Bagot is our friend here's personal history. She is very specifically talking about the harm that her own shaming, sex-negative upbringing had on her. She's acknowledging how hard she's worked to move away in that way of thinking. She's implying that she wants something very different for her daughter, an approach that hopefully aligns with her new values around all of this. So that really matters, too. Also, our friend here is not opposed to the idea of the toy, right? Her question is more,

how do I handle this in a healthy way? So Dr. Bagot's take was, given that this is aligned with her own stated values and that it's developmentally appropriate, it is okay to do. Now, if she were writing in saying, masturbation is sinful and this is horrifying, what do I do? Dr. Bagot said that she would respond differently. Then she would probably want to help her explore where her discomfort is. She would validate how different this request is from her own upbringing, her own worldview. She said she would probably provide some factual sex education. So that's important context too. Dr. Baggett is saying you want to parent your child differently from how you were raised. You want to do that in a healthy way and an appropriate way. Here's how you can do that. That said, Dr. Bagot also believes that safe boundaries

are super important here. One big boundary is offering information and support around sex and an age appropriate way. Another is just being willing to have this conversation with your daughter because in doing so, you're respecting her bodily autonomy and the reality of her experience, which is that she's experiencing sexual desire. Another way to establish safe boundaries is by having a collaborative discussion with her around privacy and how you'll go about doing this in a way that honors both of your boundaries. For example, giving her private time so you or another household member won't accidentally walk in on her, which I'm sure you would agree would be unfortunate for everybody involved. Another example, deciding whether you feel comfortable actually helping her shop. Do you want to take her to the store? Do you want to give her the

credit card and let her handle this herself? Do you want to give her some good online resources that talk about how to choose a toy like this? Dr. Baggett said there's articles for teens specifically, by the way. Do you want to suggest that she ask another trusted adult to guide her? Bring dad into the picture. I'm sure he'll love it. That's a good family outing. Dude, you thought the interaction with the cashier was going to be weird? Just wait till dad is throwing down the visa for that. Yeah, I was joking. No need to email me with a finger wagg, guys. On this note, Dr. Baggett mentioned that if you do go with her to a store, women-owned adult stores tend to be safe, they tend to be clean, the staff is helpful, knowledgeable, they're happy to provide guidance. You don't have to go to one behind a Chevron station run by a guy

who's not allowed within 100 feet of a school or something like that. She also said there's some reputable educational websites like Babeland or Good Vibrations. They tend to have guides on how to choose products like this for beginners, as well as a bunch of other helpful info. But anyway, Dr. Baggett's insight here was the key to these boundaries is, all of this should be both collaborative and honor what you both need and not cause either of you harm. And again, you already did exactly that by telling your daughter that you needed time to think. In Dr. Bagot's view, that was respectful, that was kind to both of you. In her experience, though, where parents can go off the rails with boundaries and sex is

when they share too much information about their own sexuality, or when they shame their children, of course, or when they don't respect a teenager's privacy, or when they provide age and appropriate information or ask questions in a sensational way to satisfy their own curiosity as opposed to helping a child with a specific need. Gosh, there's so many gross things that you can imagine going wrong with that. Asking questions in a sensational way to satisfy their own curiosity. I guarantee you over the years we've seen feedback Friday letters with people who are like, my mom told me this and this and this and we're like, what?

I remember a few of those. Sadly, I think parents probably do that all at times, sometimes accidentally and sometimes sadly on purpose. Yeah, those are good guardrails. Gabe, I'm fully prepared for some people to write us saying that this is a bridge too far, even if this mother doesn't want to shame her daughter, helping her shop for a product like this is weird, it's inappropriate, it's unnecessary. Honestly, though, I get it. I'm somewhat sympathetic to that viewpoint as well, but we're also hearing from a legit expert who is saying, actually done the right way, this doesn't have to be weird or damaging, which again, so grateful for Dr. Bagot's consult here. And once you get past

the weirdness and potential awkwardness, I think there's something sweet and honestly pretty remarkable about a child trusting a parent enough to talk about this. I don't think I would have gone to my mom or dad in 1997 or six or whatever. I've been like, hey, can I get one of these flashlights? I'm sticking use in my hands. And it'll keep me away from my girlfriend. Not that that was true at all. But anyway, like we said earlier, the question beneath your question is really how to meet your daughter in this big conversation, in this new phase of her development. On that front, I think you're doing a wonderful job, especially given that you never in a million years would have asked your own mother this question, and now your daughter is asking you, and I just think that says a lot.

So, well done on creating a very different environment for your child, for having open conversations that are still healthy and respectful. If you keep checking in with her and with yourself about where the right boundaries are, I know that's going to make a huge difference in your daughter's life. Big thanks to Dr. Baggett for her wisdom here. You can learn more about her and her practice at wellwomanpsychology.com, and you can find Dr. Bagot on Instagram at wellwoman psychology. And now you can rub one out. To the sinfully good deals, and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. These are deals you can definitely tell your parents about.

We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps our batteries charged and all of our various devices we have laying around here. To learn more and get links to all the great deals and discounts so you can support the show, visit the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right.

Next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are in our 70s and my sister-in-law has always been a mess. She's continually called for money and complained non-stop about how difficult her life is. She and her husband, who live out of estate, always have their hands out with little to no consideration for others. When my father-in-law was alive, he gave them the down payment for their condo where they still live, and always bought her cars. When he died, the estate was shared equally among his children. My sister-in-law took her share approximately $100,000 and quickly spent it on nonsense. We told her to put it in a 401k, but she didn't listen.

She even paid for a girlfriend to travel with her to Hawaii on vacation. All expenses paid. Great. Cool use of money. What an idiot. It's her money, but my God, $100,000 on vacations and bullshit, I could never. Here's the thing. It's fine if you have millions of dollars. It's not fine if you're broke. Why are you broke? Gee, you want to have fun? 10% of that, treat yourself, treat your friend, make a memory, great. You know I'm all about that,

but put the other 90K in a frickin' a fidelity account, Marcia. Minus 100 grand and plus one Facebook album full of blurry photos of you and your girlfriend from Book Club at the Ritz Carlton, Waikiki. That's where you are. Exactly. I hope that cucumber water was worth it, Marsh. Jeez, these people, man. This has been going on as long as we've been married, over 40 years. Then, one day, she left my brother-in-law voicemail calling his wife very bad names, calling his stepdaughter whores and saying that we all owed her money. My brother-in-law considers a stepdaughter as his own since he never had biological children of his own. Needless to say, he and his wife were very

hurt and angry. This was the final straw. At that point, he and my wife had enough and blocked her calls. All communications stopped. So just to be clear, our friend here's wife and her brother cut the other sister off. That's right. Other cousins also blocked her calls. I was the only remaining link. I tried to keep in touch occasionally. I would send her money at holidays and birthdays, but never received a thank you. I even went through the entire process to refinance her condo at a lower rate. But then I became the punching bag. So I eventually blocked her calls too. Unreal. Way to drive away the one person's still on your team. This person is an idiot. Who's also giving you money and helping you save money, which you desperately need. Which is what she says she wants, exactly. Right. This woman is

out of her tree. Yeah, this is pathological. I mean, nobody's that dense. There's something else going on here. Then, recently, she's been finding the contact information from my daughter's friends and my brother-in-law's wife's relatives and saying that we need to contact her, that we don't keep in touch, basically, making us look like really bad people. I called her in the past to explain that her actions were unacceptable and that she needed to apologize, but she didn't. So I've now agreed to call her to set the record straight and tell her that these family members don't want her in their lives, period. I don't want to be mean-spirited, but I do want to let her know, in no uncertain terms, that this is their decision. They are not going to change their minds. They are 1,000% comfortable

with the decision to never see or speak to her again. But I'm really struggling to come up with a message that is somewhat compassionate, but also leaves no doubt. How would you put this? signed hoping I don't make a gaff when I tell this woman that she's a nightmare and a half. Boy, what a piece of work. I'm so curious how our friend here became the one point of contact for this woman after everything she did. She's not even his blood relative. All the rest of her family already cut her off. I don't know how he ended up here. That is interesting. We don't know how that happened. I mean, 40 years of marriage, at some point it's kind of like it's all family, right? Maybe everyone else is like, we don't want to do it. Can you please do it? Or he volunteered because he often takes on those responsibilities, goes out of it.

his way to be the diplomat, like sending her money on her birthday and refinancing her condo after she did a lot of crazy stuff. That is interesting. I wish we had a little bit more information about all this. He's either stepping up and representing the family appropriately, or he might have a way of taking on way more than he has to or picking up the slack for everyone else. Or wanting to be the good guy. Yeah. Maybe he has his reasons, just an interesting pattern in this letter. Anyway, I'm really sorry your sister-in-law is this way. All of this is super weird. It's hurtful. It's very uncomfortable for everyone. Honestly, everything you're describing sounds like, like legit mental illness. Some combination of entitlement and narcissism and a profound lack of

self-awareness. I have to imagine enabled by her father, the one who died, and probably a number of other people along the way. Yeah, this is a problem person. I have a very distant relative who is like this. She regularly turns on people, whips herself up into her frenzy. She'll call people, yell at them. She'll write five, ten-page letters detailing all the ways that they've upset her, let her down, what they need to do to make things right. But then she'll beg people to visit her. She'll bribe family members to like move back to her town so they can be closer and one by one they're all having to cut her off or put a lot of distance between them and her which is what she fears the most ironically and she has no idea that she's making them do that it's so sad so sad there are some

truly unhinged people out here who aren't like lock this person up in a psych ward crazy but yeah they're nuts it's wild so obviously this isn't someone you can have a healthy relationship with and i guess i commend you for having the courage to communicate this to her so the way i'd frame this is something like, listen, Marsha, I'm calling to share something with you. It might be a little hard to hear. My intention is not to be cruel or hurt your feelings in any way. I'm just here to relay some information. As you know, a number of people in our family have found their interactions with you very challenging. I know you have your reasons for reaching out to them. I understand you want to be closer with the family, but the way you've gone about that, calling my daughter's friends, distant

relatives, speaking poorly about us. It actually made it harder for everyone to be close. Impossible, really, because the way you're talking to us, the way you're behaving, I don't think you intend it, but it's actually driving all of us away. And it's actually gotten to the point now that my daughter, your brother, my wife, we all feel that it is unsustainable to have any relationship with you. It gives me no pleasure to tell you that. I wish it weren't this way, but there it is. So I'm calling to let you know that just so you understand why we are where we are and why we cannot talk anymore. Nice. Hard message, but yeah, I like that. It's short, it's sweet, or the opposite of sweet, I guess. Keep it focused on the information.

Don't raise your voice. Don't use this call to make your case or engage with her deeply about any of this. I'm talking about a three-minute phone call. That's what I mean here. And if she pushes back, maybe you say, look, I'm not here to get into all this. I know this is really difficult. I'm sorry about that, but I'm just here to tell you where we stand. Literally, I wouldn't say anything more than that.

Based on what you've shared, your sister-in-law, look, she is not looking for meaningful conflict to resolve here. She is almost certainly going to lash out, try to guilt you or manipulate you and defend. herself. There's zero point in that. Do not get involved in that. So that family member I just told you about her children and her grandchildren had to have a version of this conversation with her, and it did not go well. It didn't go well from the standpoint of she didn't say, oh my God, I've driven everyone away, maybe I'm in the wrong here. It did go well from the standpoint of, look, we've told you what the problem is. We've given you the information. Now it's up to you

to decide if you want to consider things. I see. Okay, so it actually did go well, right? She just didn't react well, but who cares at this point? It's over. I think our friend here knows that he's not trying to change Marcia at this point. Yeah, it's just about not being totally cruel by ghosting her with zero explanation, even though the reason is clearly more than obvious. To literally anybody who's not mentally ill, yeah. Gabe, I'm just thinking about how weird it must have been for our friend here's daughter's friends to get a call from this woman being like, this is Daniela's aunt Marcia. Her parents are neglecting me and they're bad people. Tell Daniela to tell her mommy to call her sister. While they're sitting there listening to this loony tune,

never met in their life scream at them on a speaker phone. Yeah, from the pool at the Ritzkarlton. Yeah, literally. Your mother's driving me into poverty. Excuse me, can we get into the round of $18 margaritas thinking, yeah, it's in poverty, I said. Like, okay, we'll pass along the message, I guess. It's so ridiculous. How do you even respond to that? Anyway, half the battle is delivering this message. The other half is enforcing the boundary. So you might want to get on the same page with your family, decide how you guys want to handle her from here on now, because I am sure Marcia's going to continue to call and text and email you guys, and it would help if you guys are clear and consistent in your response, which it sounds like is silence, basically, which to me

sounds perfectly appropriate. Unless she re-approaches you with a very different attitude, but I think that's extremely unlikely. Yeah, not going to happen. If she does, I would be worried that she's trying to manipulate you again, but if she really came to you with a new attitude, maybe years later, sure, you can hear her out carefully. Call me when you get on medication and you've been in therapy for a, you year or three, Marcia. Until then, enjoy that 2.6% interest rate I locked in for you before you turned on me. You're welcome.

Exactly. Very sorry you have to deliver this message. It's not an easy one, but man, is it going to feel good to not deal with this bull crap anymore? But your sister-in-law, she's made it a lot easier to deliver this message by being so out of line. So be firm, stay strong, stay connected to your compassion. She's obviously in a lot of pain.

But yeah, I think it's going to be a lot easier from here on out. Wishing you, your wife, your daughter, and everyone normal in your family, a huge hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com, keep your emails concise, try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to manage a creepy and manipulative peer in your professional group, you've just learned your wife is secretly an escort, or your father has abandoned your

mother with dementia and remarried a new woman in the eyes of God in a matter of weeks. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. wiser. Bight-sized gem from us to you. Deliver right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom of the show, I invite you to come check it out. It's a two-minute read every week. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been married for three and a half years and genuinely love my husband. I can be completely

myself with him. And our relationship has survived seven moves in five years. Job changes, the purchase of a house, the subsequent financial loss when selling it. and living semi-on-the-road in a trailer. We finally found an area we want to call home and are both ready to put down roots and stop moving. But since deciding to settle down, our relationship has changed. We never directly talked about having kids and starting a family,

but I was up front about wanting kids, and I thought he was on the fence. Hold up. That's a little confusing. They never directly talked about having kids. She was up front about having them? And she understood or assumed that he was on the fence. So they did talk about it directly? I don't know what's happening here.

That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe she means that they didn't have fully open and honest communication around this topic, but how does that happen before you get married? This is very surprising to me. They're married for three and a half years. They've been through all this huge stuff together. Wait, so hold on. They're in an RV driving for like 13 hours at a time.

How do you not directly talk about whether or not you want to start a family? At this point, you have played six degrees of Kevin Bacon for hundreds of hours. What else is there to talk about? I'm not sure, but I think it's safe to say that something is not quite lining up between them here. So she goes on. We would be irritated by some children in public and enjoy our freedom, but we would also sometimes mention teaching kids or hobbies, like hockey and skiing. Okay, so they haven't talked directly about it, but they are talking about their hypothetical children. Maybe it's more hypothetical for him than it is for her. I don't know.

Maybe that's their way of talking, sort of implying things. Filling the gaps, hoping the other person's going to read between the lines, Yeah, not a great strategy. I had my second abortion last spring. I knew we were not in a healthy place to bring a child into the world. We were living in a campground cabin for a month and had no idea what our next living arrangement would be. That's a difficult experience, I'm sure,

but it sounds like you had some good reasons. The experience this second time told me that the first was likely a miscarriage, as this time I felt pregnant. What? I don't know, man. I'm just reading the letter. The second time told me the first time, was likely a miscarriage, but it wasn't a miscarriage. She terminated the pregnancy.

I'm assuming she means that she thinks the pregnancy didn't take before the abortion. That's the only thing that makes sense. Okay. I know women intuitively feel all sorts of things, but I'm not sure that feeling pregnant the second time means you weren't pregnant the first time. It could also be like a timing thing. I told him that there would be no more abortions. This one was hard enough. Since then, I've been more careful with our contraceptives. Well, good. I think that's wise. I don't know if the reality of that statement hit him at the time. Is she referring to the no more abortions thing or this abortion was really hard on me? Unclear, but once again, we are confused and they are not entirely on the same page. Something about the way they communicate does not fully land all the time. And then they

keep chugging along without making sure that the other person is on the same page. Now that we're in an area that meets our combined needs, I am ready to start planning our future, seriously save for a house, and prepare to start a family. I'm 30. And, Unfortunately aware that the older I get, the riskier a pregnancy will be. While I would love to take a life break for a bit after a hectic several years, I don't want to sit around while the ability to start a family slips away. Plus, I enjoy thinking about my future and having something to work towards. But my husband was taken aback when I brought up children,

and our household has been uncomfortable since. Once again, so confused, dude. I learned that he doesn't have a vision for his future and definitely would prefer to avoid this difficult conversation. Well, clearly. Clearly. So I'm starting to get the sense that your husband does not want kids, and he doesn't have the heart to tell you. So he just played along slash stayed quiet when you brought this up, hoping it would magically go away.

Which is not cool. Interesting that she's saying he doesn't have a vision for his future, because that's different from having a vision for his future that does not include children. So the problem is obviously bigger than just the kids thing. But the kids thing is a huge part of their future, and it's a huge thing that's gone unresolved. after a week of trying to have a healthy conversation with him, encouraging him to try journaling, leaving room for open communication, asking open-ended questions,

and even signing up for couples therapy, the week ended with no solution. He felt that I signed up for therapy behind his back, and his schedule is now conveniently too full to make space for therapy, so I canceled it. Money is tight, and it was out of pocket. I told him that he needs to think about this topic seriously.

I need to know if he wants kids, and if he doesn't, why? I told him that I accept if he doesn't, but there's a difference between fearing parenthood and genuinely not wanting that lifestyle. The former would benefit from conversation and therapy. The latter is a final life choice. I also told him that I fear him giving me an answer

to appease me and end the conversation, only for him to wake up in 10 years resentful about where his life is and seeing his children as hindrances to the lifestyle he wants, leaving me in a position that I would call being a mayor, single mother. I told him that I would drop the conversation until after the holidays. We were visiting family and he could digest what I shared over a few months. Now I'm struggling to feel motivated to sustain the marriage. I get frustrated more easily. I'm starting to see more things that

make me wonder if we're a good match as life partners and keep daydreaming about idealized new relationships. I wonder if I was naive to marry a man who outright told me he didn't believe in marriage. and if I ignored his reluctance to help around the house, he used the excuse of a demanding work schedule and are constant moving. Huge new piece of information. Yes, multiple. She's painted her husband as a void and squirrely, but now she's saying he outright told me he didn't believe in marriage.

So at least on one huge question, he was very explicit with her. So he might not be totally open with her, but it sounds like she has also failed to take him at his word and played along to some degree. Yes, and to her credit, she's now starting to acknowledge that. But then why get married, and how do you do that? So then we're back to his stuff, and he's saying, I don't want this, and she's saying some version of, okay, maybe you don't.

Or maybe she's like, I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. La, look, I changed your mind and getting married. Maybe I'll change your mind on kids. Some version of that. And then he's like, all right, I'll go along with it and keep my mouth shut because it's too scary to tell her what I actually want. I don't want to rock the boat. I got hockey practice.

Bye. This is very stressful. This dynamic is a recipe for disaster, but I think she knows that now. I also think that the moving around a lot and the financial and logistical insecurity probably gave them a reason to not talk about a lot of this stuff because they were just trying to survive day to day. But now that they found a town, they want to settle down again. Suddenly it's like, okay, we're stable enough to now acknowledge all of these other things that we had good reasons to avoid up until now.

So she goes on. Also, we never lived in an area where we could each pursue our preferred lifestyles. Now that we've settled in a larger town, I'm happy to see my husband pursue his hobbies like hockey, going to the gym, going out with coworkers, and playing video games with friends. But now my vision of my preferred life feels more distant. I'm left working a full-time remote job pursuing a master's degree, managing the household finances, and doing all the cooking in most of the house chores. I enjoy being a traditional wife, but only if there's some shared responsibility.

When I started my master's program a year ago, he agreed he would help out more, but that didn't happen. I don't believe in soulmates or the idea that there was only one person out there for everyone. I also believe that marriage is tough and walking away isn't the best answer. But I want a life partner who feels like a partner and envisions a future together, including raising a family. Yeah, I don't think it's crazy to want a life partner who wants the same things and shares the same values. just state the obvious. I also don't think it's crazy to consider whether that person might not be your life partner

if they just can't get there with you. So she wraps up. How do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be and stay patient while my husband does some serious soul searching? And what if he says he wants kids? And I'm now questioning whether I want his kids signed navigating my fate when I and my mate are not on the same page about wanting to procreate.

First of all, I'm very sorry you've been struggling with all this. You've been through a lot here, my friend, all this moving, the financial stress to abortions, a master's program, running a house, working on your marriage, figuring out your needs and goals and identity. I mean, my goodness, this is very intense. I'm exhausted, just hearing about it. There's a lot of sadness and anxiety in this letter. I'm very sorry about that too, but look, these conflicts are in with your husband. I think you can tell I'm frustrated with how he's communicated with you, how he's shown up in your marriage. And that was before the not pitching in around the house stuff, but these really do sound like conflicts you end up in with somebody who's simply not

compatible with you. But like we also just said, you're now seeing more clearly, you did participate in this dynamic by discounting or ignoring certain facts. He didn't say, I don't believe in marriage and you married him. He at least hinted he was on the fence about kids when you wanted them, which I agree is not the best way to communicate his stance, but it did give you some important data about how he felt, and you stayed in the marriage, assuming you guys were moving towards the same future when it sounds like there weren't very many indications that that was true. I also have to point out, I don't mean to be finger-waggy here, but I think it needs to be said. You presumably had unprotected sex many times as somebody who you weren't sure you wanted to have kids with.

And even if he did want to have kids, it sounds like you did that before you guys were truly in a place to start a family and consciously made that decision together. So again, I don't mean to sound judgy. I don't mean to sound luxury at all here. I just find that fairly reckless. And then you paid the price. And I'm sure it wasn't fun for him either by having two abortions, one of which is really hard on you.

I mean, I don't have to explain that to you. You explained it to us. I'm sure you've already learned a big lesson from all that. I'm not trying to pile on. But in the interest of being totally fair here, I'm coming down hard on your husband, but you had a big role in all this too. And you don't need me to tell you

that the stakes here, when it comes to bringing a child into this world, it just doesn't get much higher than that. So we rarely come right out and tell people what to do, but given the facts here, I gotta say, I don't have high hopes for the marriage. It doesn't sound like this is your person for life. It doesn't sound like this is the father of your children, not the one you want anyway.

You guys are fundamentally misaligned on some very huge dimensions. And I just don't know what you're supposed to do about that. You're also misaligned in your communication. But as we keep saying, you're participating in that dynamic. He might be hiding the ball a lot of the time and acquiescing here and there to keep you happy.

That is absolutely on him. But you have also allowed him to do that. until very recently anyway, by not pressing the issue, by not appropriately holding his feet to the fire, by not going, look, I don't know where you stand on this topic, I need to fully understand you, please speak your mind, even if you're worried that it might hurt my feelings. It was only recently that you started holding him to account and not ending the conversation until you have a clear answer, which should have happened a long time before you guys got married, but I'm sure shows up in so many ways in so many conversations, both big and small. I also wonder if her fantasizing about these

idealized new relationships, and we don't know what she means, are they abstract idealized new relationships, or is she like thinking about people she knows unclear? But in addition to being a sign that she's kind of disconnected from her husband, and might in fact already be moving on in some way. And also, maybe it's a way to enjoy some freedom in a situation where I imagine she feels quite trapped a lot of the time. I wonder if that mental flight is also part of what you're describing, Jordan. That could also be an example of this avoidance and also like a kind of dissociation from the facts. There's a flight of fancy here that would also move her further away from these uncomfortable conversations. Yeah, I could see that. I think there's probably a lot

happening in that daydreaming. So could you guys work on that communication on your own or in therapy? Sure. Would it help? Maybe in the sense that hopefully you guys would step into more honesty and understand each other better, but I think what you're ultimately going to get clarity on is the fact that you guys just aren't compatible. And I know that it's like, how am I making that judgment so quickly? Look, I'm not telling you break up with it, but I'm almost telling you that. I'm saying, I just don't understand how this is the person for you or how you're the person for him. And so how can that relationship succeed? Well, the only way that it succeeds is if he wants to go to therapy and then is doing a ton of work on his own and with her to work through his hesitation around

having children or his conflicts around partnership, if that's something he actually wants to work on. I don't get the sense that he does. You mean the guy who didn't even want to go to therapy at all one time? That guy? Exactly. Yeah. So I'm totally with you. I think you're also saying to her, though, you're not the person you were earlier in this marriage, right? You're avoiding less. You're seeing things more clearly. You're becoming more responsible. You're wanting to have these tough but crucial conversations. I think that's part of why you're more easily frustrated now because you're not sweeping as much under the rug or looking the other way.

So how can you, as this newer person with new needs and new capacities, stay in this relationship if he isn't also evolving in that direction? For sure. But again, even if he does meet her there, I'm just not sure that's going to fix their real problems. I find it curious that she's asking, how do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be? How do I stay patient while my husband does this soul searching? This is not a question about staying motivated.

So two interesting things about that statement. First, I agree. If she has to stay motivated to be the wife she wants to be, then clearly there's a deeper problem here. This is not a diet. It's not a gym routine. This is her marriage. This is her life. Yeah, these new feelings she's describing, you know, again, getting more frustrated, seeing things that make her wonder if they're a good match. Even the daydreaming again. Sounds like she's viewing those as personal failures somehow or things that she needs to overcome through patience, through sheer will, instead of symptoms of a problem that needs to be addressed. 100%. I also think she should consider what it means to be the wife she wants to be. It sounds like she has a concept of what a good wife is. She mentioned that she enjoyed being a traditional wife, and that is totally fine. But it sounds like coming to terms with the reality of her marriage is making it hard for her to live up to that concept in her mind.

So what does it actually mean to be the wife you want to be? Does it mean staying in an unhappy marriage? Does it mean not speaking up when something is difficult for you? Does it mean not asking for help around the house? when you're pursuing your master's degree? What does that mean exactly? You know what's interesting about this? She's like, I don't mind being a traditional wife. And I'm like, wait, you're getting a master's degree. You have a full-time job from home and you take care of the house.

Not entirely traditional. No, what that sounds like to me is you're being a traditional wife and you have a second income and he plays video games and hockey when he comes home from work. So you're just doing everything other than his job, which is one of many issues that they got to deal with. She either needs to reconsider that idea of what a good wife is or that, that idea is just not working with this particular partner. My gut is probably both. So look, if you guys go through this process and your husband's like, you know what, I've worked through all these things, I do want kids. And you're like, oh, I'm not sure I want your kids. First of all, I get the feeling

that's pretty unlikely. It just sounds like he doesn't want kids. He doesn't want to talk about whether he wants kids or not. But if somehow he decides he does, well, given his history of caving and not speaking up in order to keep you happy, I would want to be very sure that he has actually changed his mind. But even if he does, that doesn't solve any of the other problems that they have. No. So the fact that you're questioning whether you want to have kids with him is absolutely appropriate and wise. And I would listen to that feeling. I have been unusually blunt with you. I don't think this is your guy. And given his personality and his goals or lack of goals and how you guys are relating, I would not have children with this person. Unless you guys go through a

profound process that A, leads to both of you growing in some big ways and radically changes his vision for his future in a way that aligns with yours. If you guys aren't aligned, you're not aligned. That's okay. He's not wrong for not wanting marriage or children. You're not wrong for wanting a life partner and kids. The only thing that's wrong is trying to make an impossible relationship work, especially as you get into your 30s because you're right.

Time is ticking. The stakes are high. And yeah, I know that's stressful, but it is super important to recognize. Thank you for sharing so much with us. Thank you for letting us be honest with you, setting you a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right. And now we want to knock you up with some highly feckoned deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the deals you hear on the show, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If that doesn't work, email us Jordan atjurbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

All right, time for the recommendation of the week. I'm addicted to lip fella. All right, my recommendation for the week is an app called Flighty. This is one of the best apps I've ever used. It's a flight tracker. You basically get an email that says, hey, your Delta flight is booked. You email it to Flighty. It tracks the plane, whether it's on time, what baggage claim to go to, all your seat information.

it is incredible. And it'll tell you, your flight is usually 30 minutes late on average from the airport it comes in on to this airport, yada, yada. I've had this app and I've been at airports where nobody knows what gate it's changed to. It's not on the board. The flight staff at the desk don't know, but it's in my flighty app first. I checked into a random flight in an airport in Argentina, and the gate agent, she had no idea what gate it was leaving from.

And she's like, well, you've got to wait for the board. Sometimes flighty was like, it's gate. She's like, oh, that sounds right. We leave from there sometimes. Just an amazing app. I'm a big fan. It'll show you the weather patterns. You're going to push notification that's like, you're taxiing for 18 minutes.

You're taking off five minutes late. You're going to arrive 12 minutes early. Like, it's just absolutely nuts. You'll step off the plane. It'll be like, baggage claim A. Meanwhile, everybody is just waiting to find out or it changes, and you get a push notification for that, too. It's really good.

It's way better than any individual airlines app. And it works well with all of them. So I highly recommend it again. It's called flighty. All right, next up. Well, speaking of airplanes, we got some very passionate responses to our rant on our end of year episode about people who keep the airplane window shades open when the cabin is supposed to stay dark. That was episode 1262, by the way. So we wanted to share a few of them with you and talk about this because this has kicked off a weirdly interesting debate among you guys about what is okay and what is not okay to do on an airplane. Yes. And by the way, even though I've been banned from Reddit. Yeah. Hashtag what is it? Muppet. Muppetgate. Yep.

Hashtag justice for Jordan, I'm just saying. Thank you. I appreciate the solidarity. Anyway, I'm still lurking in the subreddit. I still love hanging out there. I see the funniest stuff in there, you guys. Reddit.com slash R slash Jordan Harbingers are subreddit. Still a great place to chime in on episodes.

You can tell us what you like, what you did not like, which you guys really seem to enjoy doing. You can share other opinions on questions we take. I always try to forward the links to the people who write in so that they can get as many angles as possible. So you're not just shouting into the void or talking with eight other people who are interested in this topic. you are really actually often helping the people who write in. And I'm the moderator now, as you guys know, Jordan, sadly, is in Reddit jail, and I also am loving reading your takes. By the way, Jordan, is this like a life sentence or what?

Theoretically, yeah, ban for life. I'm in the Reddit equivalent of a prison in El Salvador. Can you appeal, or is there a Reddit Supreme Court you could take this to or something? No, apparently not. For the Cardinal sin of calling an apologist for North Korea, a Muppet, I've been put on internet death row, which is hilarious. I'm so sorry, dude. Time to get some prison tats, though. Maybe the Reddit symbol on your back. Lydiaying it up and putting dummies in their place on Reddit was one of my favorite guilty pleasures, I guess you would say.

Now I'm just that weirdo standing 100 yards from the action looking through binoculars. Yeah, like the guy who runs the gas station where they should not shop for a sex toy. Or actually, you know what that reminds me? You have you like Leo at the end of Catch Me if you can. Do you remember the scene where he's standing in the snow, staring into his mother's house, like watching her new family of Christmas together, wishing he could be in there? Literally. I never thought I'd become Frank Abingale. Of Reddit. Wow. So the first take was in the subreddit from Redditor Monkey Maddie, who writes, The Airplane Window Rant on this episode of Feedback Friday was a little obnoxious.

Is this something that people actually care about? Yep, got to stop you right there, Monkey Maddie. Yes, this is something people actually care about. Boy, do I have a podcast for you, Monkey Maddie. I love that she heard us go apeshit about people who do this in her first sentences. Is this something people actually care about? Nah, we were just pretending to be angry about this because we don't have enough to talk about here on the show. Yeah, we didn't have enough dues that week. We got to invent petty Larry David complaints to fill the time.

Yeah, we care about it. Some of us like to sleep on 14-hour overnight flights. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old, and we just recently went on our first international family vacation. This was a trip that we saved up for four years to be able to afford, and it really was a once-in-a-lifetime thing for us. My kids were both obsessed with being on an airplane and kept the window up the whole time, just awestruck. I also went on an 80th birthday trip with my grandma, and she was very similar, and took probably over 100 pictures of the clouds out of her window. Man, she's bringing grandma into this. She's going to make me throw granny under the bus? This is not fair, man.

It's not fair. We don't get to fly very frequently, so it does have a little bit of whimsy to it. I purposely booked the window seat for the views, and I've also noticed that it helps with motion sickness. That's interesting. I never heard of that. Do people really care if someone else's window is up during a flight? Again. I think we've established this. Don't mean to jump the gun, Gabe, but the fact that it's just so incomprehensible to her that other people might feel differently about this, I hate to say it, but she's making our point.

You mean like the window people don't realize that other people might not like it? Yes, this is precisely the solipsism that we're talking about. Oh, solipsism. Nice. Yeah, I think you probably taught me that one. That sounds like me. Old $5 word when a 50-cent word would do Mizrahi. Ask me, baby. Old Gabi dictionaries. But that's what this is, right? This is solipsistic. I want to keep my window open.

when everybody is sleeping at night. Do people actually care about this? It only matters what I care about. Hey, man, you're preaching to the choir. But to be fair, let's hear her out because she's not alone in this, actually. So she goes on, if you are that sensitive to light,

bring an eye mask? Am I missing something here? I would say, yes, the fact that other people exist and feel differently. Just that little detail. Yes, just that little fact. Also, it's not that we are so sensitive to light, it is that any human is sensitive to light

that they did not ask for at night. It just seems like for two guys who it seems like they try to be very understanding and accepting, this was kind of a wild and pointless rant. I take umbrage at that, madame. Yeah, umbrage indeed. Jordan is on his SAT vocab today. I'm loving this. Yes, and I would add she's being very insouciant. Insusient. That's one of those words I always forget. Like, I think I know what it means, but I'm actually not sure. Indifferent. But it's showing a casual lack of concern. Okay. Well, perfect. That's it. And that's the post also.

Fascinating. Now, I'm going to be so obsistic for a moment. I honestly didn't think there would be that many people who felt differently about this. Yeah, but clearly there are because this debate is still raging today in the subreddit. Look, maybe I'm a selfish Muppet. Maybe the mods are right. You might be the Muppet. So then we got this email from a listener. Regarding your and Gabriel's tirade on airplane etiquette, first, you both drove me crazy referring to open window shades as opening windows for fuck sake. Really? You're going to be quick and equivalent with the phrasing. You don't open the window. at 30,000 feet. You open the window shade. Get it right, guys. Yeah. Okay, sorry, everybody knew what we meant, literally everyone. I can see Jordan's getting angry again. This is what happens and I can't call people

Muppets on the internet. I can't discharge the rage. It comes out on Feedback Friday. Maybe you can work that into your pitch to the Reddit Supreme Court to be reinstated, like unbanning me is what's best for society. Yeah, it's a public service, really. So the letter goes on. Second, I always have my shade open because I'm claustrophobic. Looking around me at all the closed shades frightens the hell out of me. I can't really argue with that, can I? I can't argue with claustrophobia.

I can't argue with motion sickness. Somebody else in the subreddit today mentioned they're deathly afraid of flying and the windows help. So, okay, I hear that. I really do. That didn't occur to me and I would rather people not want to die on the plane.

Even if it's dark outside, that open shade means that I won't lose it while we're in the air. You're welcome. I'm well, I'm no, you're welcome, actually. That's how this works. Third, since when are other people responsible for your comfort? Ah, I could ask the same question in the other direction, couldn't I?

Since when are other people responsible for yours? By sacrificing their sleep on an overnight flight so you don't get nauseous? We're doing this as a favor for you. That's how this is going. Since when are you exempt from considering the comfort of everybody else on the floor? This is why I'm struggling to understand this logic. It's like, no, you don't get it. I get motion sickness.

Okay, yeah, that's a problem. I have sympathy for that. That doesn't trump everyone else's need to sleep. But this is what these people don't understand. It's crazy. She goes on, I don't go around insisting the shades be open because of my claustrophobia.

Ah, but that's not the same thing, is it? You don't need every shade open to feel okay, whereas a number of people in your area on the plane do need the shades closed in order to sleep and or watch a movie at night, in peace. They're not the same thing. She wraps up. You want total darkness?

Wear a fucking eye mask. This has been a public service announcement. signed feeling the need to upbraid and throw some shade on your need to not open the shades, which, by the way, is different from opening them all the way, the confusion about which has left me irate when I already pray that it's not my fate to end up your unfortunate seatmate. Oh, boy, this is going to be hard. All right, I'm putting away the anger. Deep breathing.

Putting back on my logic cap, no more banable insults. Okay, so first things first, you're both wrong. Not really. Well, look, I'm not convinced, but seriously, first things first, If you have a legit medical problem, motion sickness, claustrophobia, I guess you get a pass. I don't want somebody having like vomiting issues or like panic attacks. Right. And then they divert the plane because somebody's free.

No. And that kind of makes me feel bad because how would you know if somebody who's leaving their window shade open has a legit medical reason? Like we might be judging people who just need it to be okay. I've asked people to close the shades before, as you know. And if I asked someone to close the shade and they were like, I'm really sorry, but I'm going to freak out if I don't keep this open. I'm not going to be like, sorry. You got to think about everyone else. I'm not a monster, despite what my Reddit history suggests.

But I have to imagine that most people who keep the windows shade open, are you happy? I assume most of them don't have a real medical issue. And also, hey, maybe Papa Xanax for your anxiety disorder. That's what you have if you have to keep this open or you have panic attacks and lose your mind. Thank you for that. Now I've got to read 18 emails when people are going to say that you're forcing them to take pills because you want to take a nap. That's my problem now. Sorry, Gabe.

That is your job. First line of defense for the hate mail. Sheriff for the subreddit. volunteer positions, both of them. Also, I just want to remind everyone, this window shade rant, we were only talking about long haul flights where people are going to be sleeping and the sun is going to be out the whole time.

I don't care if people keep the window shades open on a flight from Charleston to Miami or whatever. I'm not trying to be a window Nazi, like for fun, just to be difficult. No, I think people are conveniently forgetting that or they didn't listen carefully. The pilot or the flight attendant literally comes on the PA and says,

keep the window shades closed, we're flying for 12 hours, people are going to sleep. That's why this is a thing. It's a rule. And that said, look, kids, you get a little bit of a pass up to a point. I do agree with that. Yeah. I'm not going to yell at a four-year-old for wanting to look at the window on their first plane ride. I'm not a total dick. I might silently get frustrated, but yeah.

It helps if they're actually enjoying the view, not just opening it because they like a little light and then forgot, which is the guy on your flight who opened it and then was like, I'm going to sleep now. Open the shade and then fell asleep. So he wasn't even enjoying the view. That's what I don't understand. Even the people who are like the worst haters of me right now for this take, even they got to admit that that's dumb and rude. It also, by the way, helps if the person is nice. Being nice goes a long way in my book. For sure. If I said something to the first listener and she'd nicely explain that our kids are having

their first international flight and they wanted to enjoy the view, I'd be like, okay, I hear you. Hey, if you don't mind, can you close it in a bit when they're not looking out the window just so everybody else can rest? That is totally different from the meat smuggler on my flight from China. Alleged meat smuggler. Alleged meat smuggler because I framed him because I was the muffler. back in. But that guy was an a-hole. If you're cool, I'm cool, or at least cooler. But okay,

let's say that if you book the window seat, you do control the window shade, which is what a lot of people are arguing, and that's just how it is. Fine. Can you enjoy it during takeoff and landing? Can you enjoy it for 20 minutes here and there? Take your 600 pictures of clouds that I promise you you will never look at again. And then can you close it? Like, it's not the Mona Lisa. It's clouds or ocean or fields or whatever over and over again. Do you need to stare at it? them for six hours at three in the morning while everyone's trying to sleep? I don't think so. Again, though, I'm a parent. I get it. Kids get a pass with these things. And despite my general tone and our friend here's rather insusient one, I might add, I'm sure you and your family are

very nice people. I understand your kids have an opportunity to enjoy the miracle of flight. I'm with it. Of course. Now I feel like a dick for being mad at children. But don't they also have an opportunity to learn that they are not flying private? Yeah, that they're sharing the flight. Yeah, there's a reason I tell my son not to yell and scream on the plane because we're not the only ones there. They want to look at the window and other people want to do other things like get home not brutally exhausted or watch uncut gems at 30,000 feet without the glare of a thousand suns ruining the picture. That's another thing. The person in the second letter is, bring an eye mask, which like, fine, that's helpful, but. And I do always bring mine, but that's not really the point, is it? No, this isn't just about people sleeping, watching a movie, reading a book, or even just having a conversation in a dark cabin.

all of those also get disrupted when one person opens their window shade. It's very jarring. As evidenced by the photo somebody posted at our subreddit today of a perfectly dark cabin and a stabbing pin of light ruining the entire cabin from one person's window. It's so jarring and suddenly 17 people in the area are forced to endure a freaking generational eclipse. So it's missing the point to say it's your fault for not bringing an eye mask. I have one. It's just that it's not going to block all the light and everyone else has to bring one so that you can look out the window.

Like everyone else has to prepare for you to not follow the rules. So this is really what this debate is about for me. How to negotiate the balance between one's own interests and those of other people when you're in public? Yes, the eternal question. The eternal question. Look, I concede that booking the window seat grants you a certain privilege. But at a minimum, you have to admit that the enjoyment of that privilege has an impact on everyone else. When almost every other passenger is sleeping or watching a movie, especially on a long-haul flight,

one passenger's whimsical window experience is a pretty clear impingement on everyone else. Like, it's not just me. I've seen other people get angry about it. In all the cases we are referring to with our take here, it violates the explicit request of the flight staff on the flight. Right. So are we saying that one of the privileges of buying a window seat is that it exempts you from being thoughtful about other people and respectful of the rules? I feel like if you took that argument to its logical conclusion, it's I booked the window seat so I'm allowed to do whatever makes me happy, even if it bothers everyone else. else. Open a can of tuna while you're at it. Have some lunch. Good analogy, which that is what some of these folks are saying, right? Someone in the comments said, and I quote, the way I see it with most airlines, I paid extra

for that window seat. The window is mine to control. That's what I paid extra for. So if that's how you view it, I guess we can't argue with you. I just don't look at life that way. I try to be considerate. I guess you're exempt from that. I have another analogy. I always book an aisle seed because I have long legs, right? I like to get up. I like to stretch a lot during the flight. I don't like being boxed in. That's I like, which means I often have to get up to let the people in the middle seat and the window seat out, right? Sometimes they even wake me up when I'm sleeping to go do that. That's unpleasant, but I don't get angry about it. I'm not saying like, well, I bought the aisle seat and I paid extra

for it. So my use of the aisle is all that matters and everybody else can go fly a kite because that's not the case. We're all sharing the flight and we're all equally real. So why should it be any different for the window seat people? Interesting argument. I feel like the people who wrote in would say if that's not a true analogy because window does. not equal aisle, they're different privileges or something. They're going to find a way to carve themselves out of this. They're different privileges, but they're equivalent in that they both confer unique benefits that are important to the person who's enjoying them, that you pay extra for, and the way that you enjoy them has an impact on everybody else, and those people do not have

much of a say in how you enjoy them. Good point. Can't really argue with that. But look, I appreciate that you're pointing out that we are generally pretty understanding people, and then we eviscerated these window shade people. And I hear that. If we were being more compassionate, I might have said, okay, this guy wasn't malicious, he was just clueless and he doesn't deserve our hatred, just our gentle criticism. For all we know, he'd feel bad about ruining everyone's sleep, and that's a fair point. It is a fair point, but I would also argue that we were not being unempathetic. We were directing our empathy to everybody else in that situation, i.e. the many other people this guy affected with his thoughtlessness. But then the loop I get stuck in

is, I honestly can't decide whether unself-aware people deserve to be let off the hook. Because, yeah, how can you be held accountable for something you weren't even aware of, but then being self-aware in this very basic way? It's also just part of being a decent human being. I fully agree. At a certain point, you just have to acknowledge the unfortunate fact that you are not the only person who exists in economy class. But then the people who wrote in would say, exactly, we exist too, so why should we have to give up our thing for everyone else? I think what we're saying is you don't have to entirely give it up. Can you just factor other people in? Like, you get a little window time and I get my sleep. Like, that's all we're saying.

Another analogy just occurred to me. If you're on the subway and somebody starts blasting their Bluetooth speaker and you ask them not to and they're like, hey, look, sorry, I have a sensory disorder or I'm autistic or I can't wear headphones. The sensation bothers me. I need music to self-regulate. So they blast their speaker on the subway or at a restaurant and their argument is, why am I responsible for other people's comfort? Just wear earplugs or wear your own AirPods if you don't like it. Yes, your autism or sensory disorder or whatever it is is real. Of course I understand that.

but you're not the only other person on the flight. Our thing is also real. And your fulfillment of your need, your enjoyment of your benefit that has a negative externality for everyone else. Multiple other people. Yes. There are more of us. So like it or not, you got to adapt unless you just don't care about anybody but yourself.

I totally agree. I also understand that a true disability does change the situation, though. Well, okay, yes and no. I understand some people on the spectrum, for example, have certain unique needs or triggers. Just like our friends who have claustrophobia, motion, sickness, fear of flying, but they also have to function in a world with many more people who do not have those triggers. So I think most people would agree that it is unreasonable to impose the requirements of those needs on everyone else, even if we sometimes make certain accommodations for

them. And that's for people who have a true condition or disorder. Why should it be different for people who just have a preference? It's like, I want to look at the clouds. Screw you. Dude, excellent point. Well said. I guess our opponents here on this issue would say, because that preference is not only legit, but also explicitly part of the experience of the service we paid for. Okay, so just to take your analogy one step further, if you're at a public park and there is a group blasting their shitty music or whatever, and it's bothering everybody else, they could say, sorry, I pay my taxes, I'm allowed to blast my music at the park. Okay, you might be allowed to blast your music, but A, that doesn't mean that it is incredibly annoying to everybody else.

And B, I also pay my taxes, and I want to enjoy silence. So why does your noise trump my silence? Exactly. And your music isn't confined to your picnic basket, just like the light from your window is not confined to your seat. Just if you open tuna, that smell is not confined to your area. So yeah, if I were in the minority here, I would play by these same rules myself happily. Also, this just occurred to me. Part of what grinds my gears about this is that keeping the cabin dark and opening a window shade are not actually equivalent. They serve very different purposes. Keeping the cabin dark on a long-haul flight allows the majority of people on the flight to do whatever they want in the dark. except look out the window, of course. Whereas opening a window shade allows the minority of people, sometimes just one person, to do one thing specifically that only benefits them,

and also detracts from the majority's ability to do their thing. So keeping the cabin dark on a long-haul flight when it's sunny out, it is actually the fairer thing to do, both from like a utilitarian standpoint and also from a democratic one, because it's not prescribing a particular experience. Do you see what I'm saying? It's allowing for multiple ones. and I'm sure we could all agree that that is the more just scenario, even if you enjoy the view. I see that philosophy degree is coming in handy, Gabe.

That's all I have to say on this matter. I'm done. I think I'm also probably going to be, well, no, I'm not. We can argue this until the cows come home, and I guess you can go around and around in circles. But to close out, I want to read just one more post in our subreddit that made me laugh. So January 477 writes, Dear Jordan and Gabe, adding a new level of annoyance with people keeping the shade open on a plane. Last week, I was on a flight. It was a short flight. probably nobody was trying to sleep much, but only one shade was open to the Florida sunset. What made this one special?

The lady in the seat was wearing a rhinestone cowboy hat, creating a disco ball effect in the cabin for the entire two hours to Pennsylvania. I had no idea this was an annoyance of mine. Still love Yinz, but thanks for that. This made me laugh so hard. Also, Yin's, I had never heard of that. Me neither. So I had to look it up.

Apparently, Yins is slang from Western Pennsylvania, so like Pittsburghese. It's basically their version of y'all. Anyway, so ridiculous. That would be fun, right? Because it's like you're during a day, it's two hours, who cares? You got a rhinestone effect. I honestly don't know if the rhinestone cowboy hat makes this better or worse. I mean, on the one hand, worse, right?

Because not only has she opened the window, but she's basically turned the entire plane into a lava lamp, kaleidoscope or whatever. Yeah, this lady's basically the magnifying glass lighting the rest of the passenger ants on fire. But on the other hand, if you're going to do it, you know? Way to create a vibe, I guess. Exactly. And give you a funny story.

And it was during the day, so it sounds like it was inconsequential. I can't wait for all the hate. We're going to receive for going hard on the pain on this one, which means all the hate mail Gabe's going to have to deal with. Yet another impingement. We did not ask for this guys, okay? We are just truth tellers. You understand.

People get fired up about it. Look, you think we're fired up. There are people in Reddit that are like, I'm unsubscribing because of how entitled you are about the window shade thing. And it's okay. See you later. Somebody called us, what was it? Like entitled boomers, which is just actually inaccurate.

It's like, I'm not going to listen to you for a while. And it's like, are you sure? Because that's a little bit. That's a little unhinged. I hope he's hearing this right now being like, I guess I didn't. I might have jumped the gun on that one. Yeah. Now, we love you.

We hope you come back to the show, but for real, dude, chill out. And we should do the same. But maybe this is better than being on Reddit. Man, over there, I get punished for saying the true thing. Right now, I don't know, kind of just can go off. Interesting, because, I don't know, it violates the explicit rules and affects other people. Look at that. What a concept.

Facts. And I have to accept them because I'm a reasonable human being most of the time. Go back and check out our episode with Jamie Mustard and are out of the loop on Venezuela. If you haven't heard those yet, the best things that have happened in my life. and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our course, six-minute networking. It's a free course. I don't need your credit card number. It's not schmoozy. It's not awkward. You can find it on the think-ific platform at six-minute networking.com.

The drills really take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty people. Build relationships before you need them. You can find it all at six-minute networking.com. Advertis discounts, ways to support the show on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at George. and Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram, you can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadasa Louskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your

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And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Ken Burns, who says the real American Revolution wasn't a clean break from Britain, but a messy, violent civil war whose contradictions we are still debugging 250 years later. good story neutralizes the binary yes and no you know you're bad left right young old rich poor whatever the dialectic is you're involved in a good story can sort of neutralize it and go oh wow i didn't know that there's no test we'd share with you our process of discovery so all the stuff i've said about the revolution i had no idea going in and i am so overwhelmed with the joy of

acquiring it that giving it away feels even better The ideas are really, really powerful at the heart of this, the idea that you could be a citizen, that you could have a say in your government after your family has worked the land for a thousand years, for somebody else. And all of a sudden, you come here and you own some land and farm and you can do this and you're literate.

Democracy is a really messy form of government, but it's better than all the other forms because the other forms involve a kind of tyranny or authoritarian certainty. Democracy's messy because you actually have to listen to people let me disappear. And you have to compromise. When that breaks down, then you lose the possibility of having it. America comes out of violence. It's born in violence. What would you guys do? What would I do? Would I be a loyalist? Would I be a patriot? What would I be willing to fight for? What would I be willing to give my life

and all that I've accumulated in my life? My fortune would I do that? We mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. For more on what else we've been getting wrong about our own origin story, check out episode 1238 with Ken Burns. This episode forces you to confront the version of America you didn't learn in school. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions

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Itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.