The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1281: Can Your Love Be Blind to Her Conspiracy Mind? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

She checks your boxes, but believes in flat Earth and Wayfair child trafficking. Do you give this hot conspiracy theorist a shot? It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1281On This Week's Feedback Friday:You matched with a woman who checks most of your boxes — but also believes in flat Earth, faked moon landings, and Wayfair child trafficking. She's hot, you've got chemistry, and she's visiting soon. Can two people with fundamentally different views of reality make it work?You've got a young colleague who's eager, reliable, and great with logistics — but the moment he opens his mouth in meetings, it's a cringeworthy cascade of filler words, restated points, and awkward pauses. He keeps getting passed over for promotions. How do you deliver the feedback that could change his career?Your wife wrote in to us (episode 808: Felonious Fellow is Harshing Your Mellow | Feedback Friday) after you got rejected from the FBI — and now you're a Special Agent with the IRS Criminal Investigation Division. You've got insider intel on PPP loan fraud, conviction rates, and exactly which agency to contact when someone's ex bought a high-end home with stolen government funds. What's the real scoop?Recommendation of the Week: Update your beneficiary forms (and make sure your parents do the same). Relevant sponsor: Trust & Will for 10% off customized legal documents.You're a high-achieving mom of four who crushed a five-year degree in three and a half years, survived preeclampsia, a near-suicide attempt, and identity loss — and just landed your dream full-time job. But six weeks in, your once-supportive husband has become moody and resentful. Is something deeper going on here?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: The Cybersecurity Tapes: Listen here: thecybersecuritytapes.comBombas: Go to bombas.com/jordan to get 20% off your first orderBetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordanNorthwest Registered Agent: Get more at northwestregisteredagent.com/jordanfreeAudible: Visit audible.com/jhs or text JHS to 500-500Homes.com: Find your home: homes.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Ugg Boots, keeping my frozen Tutsis warm as we trudged through this tundra of life conundra. Gabriel Mizrahi. I like that one. Nice to mix in some cold metaphors. I feel like it's usually hot. Dumpster fire, hellscape. Yeah. Not today. No, no. Today we're chilly. Today it's an Arctic wasteland. Yeah, a glacial expanse. Today we need a jacket. A fur-lined parka and some long underwear. That's right. That's how ice cold. the doozies are going to be today, or so I assume. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form

conversations with a variety of amazing folks, rocket scientists, generals, jihadis, drug traffickers. This week, we had Corey Dr. Rowe, author of Inshitification, why everything suddenly got worse and what to do about it. It's a hard cover. right there. Haven't and shittified those yet. Well, debatable. We talked about how tech companies are making their products and life more generally, worse for all of us in order to make more money, and of course what we can do about it. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on the gold standard. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, ones we can use without being sued anyway, and compare me and Gabe ramble through life's

big questions to an Antarctic walkabout. So Gabe, before we dive in, funny thing I was scrolling the Graham the other day. And I came across this local news segment about how Gen Z has their own Karen now. Like they have their own name for what millennials call a Karen. And that name is Jessica. Yes. I heard about this actually. Hilarious. Yeah. It made me laugh pretty hard because for a while there, that was my go-to annoying girl name here on the show by just pure coincidence. Yes. And then we got a bunch of emails saying, hey, my name is Jessica. Can you please stop using my name whenever you need a character and a story who's annoying? And then we'll, We changed it up.

We changed it up. I'm happy to do that. But apparently now it's official, Jessica is the new Karen, and it was not my fault, I swear. To be fair, asking us not to use the name Jessica to describe a Jessica, such a Jessica. You know, that's a good point. Maybe we should just go back to using Jessica. It's not our fault, guys. The whole generation decided.

We don't make the rules. So do we know why Jessica is the new name now, or is it just arbitrary? So they talked about this a little on this segment. And part of it is that Jessica is obviously a very popular girl's name among millennials, but it's also because both Jessica and Karen have that K sound. I was about to say the hard consonant. Yeah, the K, it's funny. The hard consonant, it just makes it funnier, right?

You can't say like it's an Angela. It doesn't slap as hard. Hitting that K. You do love Angela, though. I do love Angela. There's the only one I could think of. I don't know if you said Beatrice. Actually, that could work too.

I mean, it's just... But Anna, not as funny. Not as funny. Not as funny. Hitting the K just slaps for some reason. It does. It's an interesting example of how certain sounds and language can create an instant punchline.

Yeah, totally. Same with movies, you know, those hard consonants usually make for good movie titles. That's true. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, more evocative or something. Anyway, I just had to share that with you guys. No shade on Jessica's. We love you guys. It's not your fault. I feel for you just like I felt for and feel for. Cairns who aren't annoying, both of you. And so it's arbitrary and ridiculous. But it did make me laugh because, man, it's such a thing on the show. And here it is. It's like official now. By the way, I was chatting with one of our listeners, Madeline, and we were talking about the whole Karen thing. And she asked, an interesting question. She goes, is there an equivalent male name? Like, is there a male equivalent to Karen? Not really? They say it's Kevin, but nobody's like you're such a Kevin. I've never heard anyone say that. No, that's people trying to make it a thing. Like, oh, it sounds kind of like Karen. Let's make it the male version. It doesn't work. But also, you know what? I mean, now we're turning this into a serious conversation unintentionally, I suppose, but there is no male

equivalent, and it's not because guys don't do annoying things or want to talk to the manager. I mean, maybe guys are more likely to just mouth off or start violence instead of talking the manager, but it's because women are punished more for doing that kind of thing. That's part of what makes it, quote, unquote, annoying is it's considered probably masculine behavior to, like, stand up for yourself and demand something. Facts. That's the problem. Like, society, if a guy's like, hey, this isn't what I ordered or they're, you know,

this isn't what I wanted. You said this and you get something. They would be like, oh, I'm sorry, sir. And you'd be like, yeah, let the manager handle it or can I speak with the manager. That's a totally appropriate response. If a woman does it, that exact same thing, people are like, ugh, what a Karen. There's a bit of an archetype with the haircut and the whole aesthetic and the look of that. And there is such an equivalent with certain men as well. There is. I don't know if it's a buzz cut or a certain, like a kind of polo shirt or whatever. But you're right. There might be some. subtle misogyny baked into the very idea of the Karen.

There is. And everyone listen. Y'all know me. I'm not the guy who's like, there's subtle systemic misogyny everywhere you look. And I'm trying to like dig up stuff. It's just really obvious that women are punished by it for certain behaviors that guys are not. And this is one of those things. Absolutely.

So interesting. I didn't even think about that. But you're making a very good point. Anyway, speaking of consonants and hard things. Shall we dive into the dues? Let's get it. What's the first thing out of the mailback? Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

I met a woman through a dating app. I'm in L.A., she's in New York, but visiting L.A. soon. We've chatted over the phone. We have the same ethnicity and religion. Not a total deal breaker for me, but preferred. While chatting for four hours the other night, I discovered she believes in pretty much every conspiracy theory under the sun, including that one about Wayfair being a cover for child sex slavery.

Yeah, I covered that one. I had not heard about this one until this letter, actually. Yeah, it might have been on Skeptical Sunday. It must have been a skeptical Sunday, honestly. So Wayfair, for anybody who doesn't know, it's a furniture website, and if I recall correctly, some Reddit users, this is years ago, notice that certain products on Wayfair had girls' names and were listed for like over 10 grand.

So it'd be a chest of drawers and it would be named, I don't know, Catherine. And they're like, oh, my God. Are you sure they weren't called Jessica? I was going to use that name and then I thought, I'm just going to muck everything up. So people started saying that this was way too high for furniture and the products were clearly they had to be named after missing women or children. This is so nutty.

Dumb. And apparently this started in a Q&N community, I read. Of course it did. Where do you find people with a low enough number of brain cells to come to these conclusions and agree with them? It's insane. I mean, I started laughing when I was reading up on this. So these people believe that humans are being trafficked out in the open right next to quirky bookshelves.

It seems like an odd venue for that. But, okay. It's one of those things where you have to believe two things at the same time. about conspiracies. Like, everyone doing it is so advanced and it's a secret cabal. Also, they use plain English on websites that your crazy Uncle Frank, who's up till 4 a.m., smoking weed that he grew in his backyard, spots it and posts it on Twitter and everyone can see it. So it's like you just really have to believe that this conspiracy is, one, international,

two, run by all these super powerful people, and three, they're so dumb that they can't hide it. And it's so obvious to anybody who looks. I mean, none of it makes sense. To be fair, though, Wayfair does have a lot of experience with logistics, you know, moving things around. That's true. Yeah. Plus, they allow returns. So. They do. Return. Child would not stop crying. Demanded food and water. High maintenance, one star. Assembly was impossible. Took three times as long. Dark. Anyway, Wayfair had to vehemently deny the allegations, which is so absurd. And my understanding is they actually renamed the products and then gave more detailed descriptions of them so people would not be confused.

Quote unquote confused. Yeah. Can you imagine being the marketing person who had to get this assignment on like a Monday morning? So have you seen the week, Twitter over the weekend? Yeah. So we're going to need you to read. Instead of nightstand, it has to say definitely not a child from Albuquerque, just a set of drawers. These people, man.

Sometimes engineered wood media center is just engineered wood media center. Like it doesn't require much more than that. Well, here's the thing, guys. Full disclosure. I have to poke holes. in this conspiracy theory. Because Wayfair is a sponsor of the show, and the master of puppets is pulling on my strings.

They're insisting that I distract everyone from their crimes against humanity. Mission accomplished, good little puppet. So our friend goes on, also, the moon landing was fake. She wouldn't say the Earth is flat, but she did say that it's, quote, unquote, definitely not round.

You know what? Any astronomer would tell you that. It's not perfectly round. The Earth is a trapezoid. Everybody knows that. I don't know. I hear the science is still out on that. It could be a rhombus.

Yeah, I'm an avowed rhombite. Anyway, ridiculous. The whole thing is ridiculous. Needless to say, I think all of that is not only complete horseshit, but also that people who believe it are, for lack of a better term, stupid. If I'm being empathetic, I'd say they're scared and confused and these conspiracies make them feel in control. That was really cute and nice, but if you were being yourself, what would you say?

If I'm being Jordan Harbinger, which I will do right now, I'd say, you're right. they're dumb as hell. There's no getting around it. And I basically told her as much as gently as possible. She actually asked if I thought she was stupid for believing it, which I kind of appreciated. I mean, bonus points for self-awareness, I guess. I don't know. My first instinct is to run for the hills. But I think I might at least hang with her while she's in town and get an in-person vibe. Yeah.

My first instinct is to run, but she's hot. So, you know, yeah. The attractive to Looney Tune ratio is unfortunately real. Yeah, and they share a background and he thinks there's something there. But I mean, I too, if I was also like, well, we're both Zoroastrian, like the number of people that you can meet is limited. Correct. So, yeah. NYC to L.A.

You live across the country. And I don't know. I kind of get it. But that's not going to get you over this hump, my man. Speaking of Humps, have fun with that. But don't put a ring on it. Put a NUVA ring on it, maybe. That's right.

That's right. Or just stay away. You know that phrase, never stick your dick in crazy? This is never stick your Q-tip in Q&O. Instant classic. I love it. I do wonder how early in the four-hour facetime they had. She brought up the flat earth thing or was like in the last 15 minutes. Isn't it amazing we can talk across the country? Yeah, it bounces the signal off satellites that go around the globe. The globe, you say? You mean the curved piece of paper on which God scribbled his plans for the world? That one. Yeah. How does satellites work? Oh, you know, something, something the Jews.

I mean, I don't know how they, how do they explain that? That's why they're so busy. Anyway, he goes on. But imagine having kids and one wants to vaccinate them while the other thinks vaccines cause autism. Yeah. Or you want to let your kids use fluoride toothpaste, but oh, no, the government controls your mind with I think I just answered my own question. Great. Yeah. All right. Q2. No.

Done. Moving on, my man. Yeah. Open and shutcase. My friend is going through this right now. His wife is a health influencer, and they have huge differences in how to raise the kids. So unfortunately, he let it go because he didn't feel that strongly about it. He was kind of like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm just going to let her have her way. And I was like, no, you don't understand. Measles is real, dude. Anyway, he basically just gave up because he didn't want to be in conflict.

with her, but now they have babies that don't have vaccines and they have all these unspecified health problems. It's not because of the vaccination stuff. I don't know. I mean, I don't have the details, but I think they also didn't get all their other kinds of like medical care that you get for kids, that you have to get for kids or that you really should get for kids. I don't ask him the details because I don't want to get into it, but it's very curious that a health influencer has super unhealthy kids and has forwent a lot of important things that you should do. when you have kids. Can two people who essentially have a different view of reality have a long-term relationship? How much latitude do I give to a gal who doesn't believe in longitudes?

I think you could tell my strong feeling is that no, two people who have fundamentally different views of reality, they can't have a long-term relationship, or not a truly successful one anyway, not without avoiding some big topics and just pretending that this isn't a huge issue. This is not, you know, I'm a Democrat and she's a Republican, or she likes to eat. vegetarian most of the time. That stuff is a big challenge for a couple too, but I think there's ways to make that kind of stuff work. If both sides agree on core values, if they can have reasonable and respectful debates, they're not super entrenched and identified with their positions. This is, on the other hand, I believe in basic science and you don't believe in basic science. This is,

I believe in math and physics and you just don't, and you don't have an alternative explanation. You just don't believe in these things. I believe wayfar is a place to buy a shower curtain and you don't. Right. Well, or I believe Wayfair is a place to buy a shower curtain too. You can also buy smuggled children from Albuquerque or Modesto for that matter. You know what? That's a start.

That could work. Yeah. Look, you're going to be like, honey, I'm going to buy a wine rack and she's going to be like, no, we might get a Ukrainian girl by a mistake. I don't know. Also, as far as dumb conspiracies theories go, these are by far the dumbest, man. Yeah. She's not talking about the JFK assassination.

or the COVID lab leak theory or Boeing whistleblower death stuff. Those are examples of conspiracies that are kind of, all right, I don't want to say I believe in them completely or whatever that people should, but they fall into the category of, huh, there's some interesting evidence, not enough to say for sure, but we can't entirely dismiss them. I've talked about this on the show. I am not a diehard lab leak theory person. I'm not super conspiratorial by nature at all, obviously, but I don't think we can 100%

dismiss that possibility anymore. a double-digit percentage chance that that's just what happened, and it kind of makes sense. The Boeing one, I don't know, I haven't read deeply about it. It could be a coincidence. It probably is. But, yeah, it's a little suss. There's something there that's like, Jen, my wife thinks all sports or professional sports, the big game she thinks they're rigged.

Interesting. Not rigged outright and that everyone's in on it, but like that maybe refs push people that players throw games, and we sort of found out that that's true. I mean, we did an episode about that. And I've heard this from a lot of people. I mean, people think the refs in NBA are. That's mostly what she's talking about. I mean, we don't watch sports, but we'll watch the playoffs, and she's like, do the

refs not have access to all the same video footage that we have? And it's like, nope, they're just making these calls. And it's like, I don't know. So there's stuff where reasonable people come up with theories and maybe they're not true where they believe things that are a little conspiratorial. But Wayfair selling children online, the earth isn't around. I mean, this is just the dumbest of the dumb conspiracies. The bottom of the barrel BS that's so easily disproven is just laughable.

Totally. It's like the Twinkies of conspiracy theories. just empty calories that you don't have to think about at all in order to enjoy. These theories, which can you even call them that? I mean, they attract the most gullible, tribal, low-intelligence, low- IQ people out there, period. Which is ironic because they're also the hardest to believe. Yes, that's assuming. That's a good point. To a person with a decent IQ, yeah, but I guess that is my point. Just think about the level of intelligence or maybe the degree of almost like low-key

mental illness required to believe in this day and age that the dang earth is, you know, flat. A sixth grader can perform an experiment that disproves this. Honestly, it's terrifying if you really stop and think about it. It's terrifying that these people have the right to vote as well, and they do exercise it at some point. It's enough to give you the goosebumps. Look, the only thing that might make this work is if this woman is somewhat flexible in her beliefs, somewhat open to accommodating other evidence. I mean, a lot of people who believe silly conspiracy stuff, they can be talked to because they will believe anything. So you just show them science and they're like, oh, okay. That's the best version of this. Yeah, that's the best version of this. But if she were that kind of

person, would she have fallen for this stuff in the first place? I don't know. Exactly. So, yeah, look, it's already doomed. If she's already been sucked into the flat earth funnel, that just really says so much about her at her level of reasoning. I don't know that you're going to be able to fix that or why you'd even want to try. I feel like if I had to sit down with somebody and deprogram them from flat earth, it would already be over for me. Like, I don't know if I could be attracted to somebody who had to be talked down from that particular ledge. Same. Look, there's not enough Seattleis in all of the CVS pharmacies and all of California to compensate for that boner killer. But hey, you've got to decide what you can live with, man. This is just us. Yeah, sadly, I don't

have high hopes, because this isn't just about believing some out-there stuff. It's about the values and skills and just general awareness that those beliefs imply. That's That's the deeper problem. We've talked in the past about how to talk to a conspiracy theorist. To your point, Jordan, most people who fall for this stuff, it's not just that they're dumb, although that does seem to be very common. Some of them, by the way, might even be above average in intelligence. I guess those people exist, but it's really that they are vulnerable.

That's the problem. That's right. They're vulnerable because they're anxious to an almost pathological degree, or they're scared, or they're confused. Do they feel out of control? Or they feel out of control. This is all, that's all very common. Or they feel alienated.

They feel misunderstood. Yeah, and that is a dangerous cocktail. And believing in the conspiracy gives them a sense of, you name it, control, safety, or belonging. And if you look at the world, as so many people do, and you go, man, this is scary. There's all this dark stuff happening. I don't trust the people in charge. I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense.

And then you find a community that goes, look, it can all be explained by this really simple idea that you just happen to be able to wrap your head around. That can be really comforting. Yep. And then you have all these new friends who believe. the idea too, and I think that's also comforting. For sure. I would not be surprised if this woman had some of those qualities. And if you wanted to, you could try to suss those out and learn more about them and validate

them and try to help or see what role these conspiracy theories are playing for her. Yeah, but that's a big lift, man. And I'm not sure it's your job, to be honest. No, no. Look, if this was your sister, I would take the time to do it. Your cousin, sure. Yes. Your best friend growing up, sure.

Some gal that lives across the country that you met on a dating app, why? bother my dude. Why? I mean, he might have his reasons, but I don't know if it's worth his time. Well, I think we all kind of know the reasons, but like you don't have to do that much to, anyway. And most of these people, they tend to be pretty defensive and they can be pretty dug in. So my guess is you're going to have to invest a lot of time to maybe make some progress, when you really could be spending that time with someone who, you know, isn't a kook. But look, if you want to have a fling, if you guys get along on a certain level and that's interesting, what's the harm? Again, be safe, take precautions, don't get too involved with somebody

like this, at least until you learn more. But this conspiracy thing, this will become an issue eventually. We're going to link to a bunch of episodes we've done on talking to conspiracy theorists, how these people think, why people fall for kooky stuff, all that's going to be in the show notes for you. I'd give those a listen and go from there. She's probably not your gal, but it's great to learn this stuff early on. This is good to find out now. And good luck. You know what's locked up in a shipping container with your name on it right now. The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on our website at

Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a senior staff member in a large government office working with a fantastic team under an incredible supervisor, who has mentored all of us and helped us learn and grow in our careers. We have a young, relatively green member of our team, let's call him Joe, who has been with us for a couple of years. Joe is the lowest ranking team member and still has a lot to learn, but is nevertheless an asset. He participates in our projects, is eager to learn new things, and once he learns something, is generally able to do more of the work independently and reliably. He leans into every

task he's assigned with an eager and positive attitude, never complains, asks questions when something isn't clear, and definitely adds value to the team. He's also our department's natural social coordinator and logistical king, organizing group happy hours and arranging all meeting locations and travel logistics flawlessly. But Joe has a significant trait that's holding him back from advancement, and my supervisor and I have struggled with how to help him. He's an incredibly clumsy and awkward speaker in nearly all but the most casual one-on-one interactions. For example, in a meeting, he'll pipe up to make a point and trip over his words, pause far too long to gather the next obvious word or concept,

and use a cumbersome number of filler words and phrases, not just um, but stating and restating completely unnecessary phrases from the original question or topic. It becomes so cumbersome that it's difficult to pay attention long enough to understand the point he's trying to make. And frequently, the point he's making doesn't really add any value to the discussion. Oh, man, that's a real problem. I feel bad for this guy, but yeah, definitely something he needs to know about. It sounds very annoying as well. The impact of this is far, far worse in a public meeting or when addressing a citizen committee. We rarely give him to find speaking roles in these situations, but the meetings are often casual enough that different staff members

can chime in to emphasize a point or to add a context. Oh, I know. Boy. Okay. When Joe does it, it is always cringeworthy. Often he's piping up to restate something that was just said, but with fits and starts and you can see members of the public or committee simply go cold. Another thing I've noticed is that in more intimate team settings, like when I'm giving him instructions to carry out a task, he eagerly interjects as I'm speaking, trying to finish my sentences to show how he gets it, which he often doesn't. Or interjecting. with irrelevant examples, all showing that he's thinking more about what he can say in the interaction than listening to the direction I'm giving.

Oh, this is so annoying. Even hearing about it is annoying. So that's coming from wanting to look good in front of you guys and wanting to prove his worth and wanting to be taken seriously, all of which he is clearly is doing the opposite. Exactly. Right, but this is so common, especially with younger employees. And it's probably, slash, might be something he can just nip in the bud, I hope. The poor oral communication skills are holding him back significantly.

He's applied for several promotions and been passed over for all of them. And it kills my supervisor to be unable to promote him. That's interesting. Why does it kill his supervisor? Yeah, I'm puzzled. He's just not ready to rise up, right? He's not a leader yet. What's the problem?

Why is that so hard on the supervisor? Or am I just, am I of Robot Jordan who's like, hey, if you were compassionate, this would be hard on me. No, I think, I mean, unless he means that they want him to rise up because they like him. but they can't because he's liability and that's just stressful for them? I guess, I mean, but then coach him or let him go? Why is the supervisor agonizing

over not being able to promote him if he's not promotable? Again, maybe I just need like an ounce of compassion here more than I already have. I'm getting a sense that they're just tiptoeing around this guy and they're avoiding giving him really important feedback and then they complain openly

about him. And that is not going to fix this problem. All of this is extra interesting given that the supervisor is a such a great mentor and has supported and coached them all so generously, but when it comes to this guy, it sounds like she doesn't quite know what to do. Anyway, he goes on. She's recommended that he take a course in public speaking, but didn't provide a specific course to plug into, and he hasn't pursued this. Because that's not real feedback. Joe doesn't realize what a problem this is, right? He's not motivated to fix it. This supervisor was kind of like, oh, go take a Dale Carnegie

course hoping that that's going to fix it, but someone needs to sit this kid down and have a real talk about how he's showing up at work and how he views his role in this place. I was recently on an interview panel for his most recent promotion application where he performed very poorly, with nerves overlaid on his generally awkward speaking pattern. Having interviewed him gives me a unique opportunity to provide him some constructive feedback. Great. Great. Good. Now we're talking. I know I can deliver it in a way that's helpful and affirming, but I'm worried that his confidence is already going to be dinged by still not landing a promotion after so many tries. I don't want to further undermine his confidence

to the point that he loses his comfort around speaking up at all. I hear that, but I think it's also possible that he'll just be bruised enough in the best way to be receptive to this feedback, finally. I totally agree. Now he can't deny the results and there's a pattern of being passed over

so he might be primed to take this in. And then you're coming along and going, hey, you want to know why you're not rising up? This is why. I think he has to be willing to rattle Joe a little bit, right? He can't protect him anymore. No, 100% correct. Our friend here, he's not going to be a dick about it. He's not looking for ways to cut Joe down even more or like flexes power over him or whatever. He's just saying, hey, you need to hear this. That is necessary and that's honestly, it's part of his job. But more than that, I wonder if the two of you have any specific, actionable resources I could recommend for him. There is a course at our local community college on oral communication that I'm going to recommend,

and our supervisor would support his taking time to take it during the workday. I've looked for storytelling classes in our area, but haven't found anything. And I don't think improv is what he needs, as he shows no nervousness about speaking of. That's the problem, yeah. Are there online or other resources you're aware of that I should recommend, maybe ones that would teach the fundamentals of structuring spoken word, signed trying to abide and be a good ally to a wide-eyed underling who's hopelessly tongue-tied. Man, tough situation.

It can be really hard to manage somebody who has a massive blind spot like this. Because on one hand, you're watching this kid put his foot in his mouth and trip over his you know what left and right, and you're like, okay, someone's got to tell him. On the other hand, it is super awkward to have to point something so, painfully obvious out to somebody else. Because if they're doing this and they don't realize how problematic it is, then your feedback might be quite jarring. And that's a daunting task. Yeah, totally. He's saying, I don't want to ding his confidence, but I think he might also be

saying, I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm going to feel cruel or guilty for throwing this guy for a loop and hurting his feelings. Right. And that might be why he's going, is there just some course at the learning annex I can send this guy to, freaking improv Olympics or something like that. Make it someone else's problem. That's right. Because that's easier than having a real conversation with the guy. So as you can tell, I don't think that's a solution here.

Joe's problem is deeper than technique or some style or skills. This guy doesn't need to learn to yes and or understand what makes a great story arc or whatever. He needs to understand that his whole way of communicating, his understanding of why and when to communicate at all, is completely off. He needs to learn that part of being a good communication. communicator is reading the room, understanding what people actually need from him before he opens his mouth. And he needs to understand that talking is not a smart way to look good and be perceived as

effective and important and useful. He needs to understand that what he's doing is actually doing the opposite. Yeah, he needs to be taught that these public situations are not opportunities for his own enhancement. Yes, exactly. That could be a nice secondary effect if he does his job well, but this is not his politicking time. Yes, he's there to add value and serve other people's needs first and form. most, not to hear himself talk. I feel like this is an employee you kind of have to take down to the studs and then rebuild. It's not someone who just needs some tweaks here and there. Zip-z-z-z-op at the UCB is not going to do it for him. That's right. It's so funny zip-zaps out. I remember, I love that game, by the way. It's an improv game for people who don't know what we're talking about. You do a lot of

fun stuff in improv, and it is good for getting people to come out of their shell. Joe is not in his shell. He likes hearing himself talk, and he thinks he's doing a good job and is a disaster. The whole motivation for talking is the problem here. Anyway, as wounding as it can be to be taken down to the studs, as you said, these are the kind of talks you need to get when you're young, and I think everyone who's successful has gotten a few around that age especially. Dude, I definitely got a few. When I worked at my first job out of college, there were a couple moments when I did a Joe-like thing, and I'm grateful for my managers for saying, hey, just so you know, that's not what's needed in that moment. Yes. Got it. These types of talks are what made me realize that corporate was just not

going to work for me or especially certain corporate environments where people were really, had really fragile egos and a lot of power. Because I remember people telling me to like, it's funny because we handled a letter like this last week, but it was like, tone down your personality, don't try to have a sense of humor at work, things like that. This is a British law firm. Surprise, surprise, right? They did not like anybody with personality. Oh, this is the one where they got mad at you in the elevator for saying BS on the cuff link. So that was actually the same firm, but in New York. And then when I was in the UK, yes, good memory. I got in trouble and a talking to on Monday because I went in the elevator and a partner,

like a senior partner, said something like, oh, what do your plans for the weekend? And I was like, oh, I'll probably go to the pub and maybe go to see the London Eye and the, I don't know, Natural History Museum. And I said, what about you? And he's like, oh, I've got a fishing cabin. And then apparently he immediately emailed somebody and was like, that young man had the temerity to ask my weekend plans after I asked him his plans. And I was like, what?

the actual, so when they talked to me, they were like, did you ask Mr. Crawford what his weekend plans were? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, why? And I said, because he asked me my weekend plans. And they were like, that man has worked very hard to get where he is. And I was like, I'm still at a loss to why I did anything wrong. And to this day, I'm kind of like, nah, bro, that's a you problem. He was reading something into it that did not exist, what that you were suggesting that he wasn't working hard enough? I think it was just like he's allowed to ask me what I'm doing and I'm not allowed to ask what he's doing because it's inappropriate for me to be informal with somebody like that, even if they're informal with you, which to this day, I'm kind of like,

nope, you're weird if you do that and I don't, you cannot change my mind. You're being weird. Not me. That's absurd. Ridiculous. So that was why I was like, I can't work at Linklaters. It's this British law firm. It's kind of a cool, there's cool people there. Don't get me wrong. But I was like, this corporate culture does not jive with me. And then when I worked in New York, I went to a different firm and I was like, okay, don't make these same mistakes. And I remember the partners there were like, hey, who's got the fucking pizza? And I was like, no, no, no, this is my place. This is my place. I get it here. It all sort of added up to me being like, you know what, this whole corporate thing, this is going to be a weight on my shoulders if I can't be myself.

And so I created a job where I'm myself all the time and it works. Yeah, but Joe's problem is different. Joe's problem is that he needs this lecture. It's appropriate. He does. And him being himself is the problem here too. Is the problem. Yeah. This isn't asking a partner what he's going to do in the elevator. This is him wasting everyone's time in a meeting because he wants to hear himself talk. It's a different and bigger problem. So I definitely feel it's time for a very direct, very supportive conversation with him about your observations. And the way I'd frame this is, hey, listen, Joe, I've been working with you for a while now. I've seen you shine in a lot of ways. You learn quick. You have a great attitude. You ask good questions. You handle internal stuff like a champ. I'm impressed and grateful for

all of that. I've also had the opportunity to see what kind of leader and speaker you're shaping up to be both on the job and on the last interview panel. And I want to bring your attention to a few things that I think are holding you back. Dude, really nice start. Love this. Perfect. And then I would just tell him about some of these moments. I mean, he probably already knows, right? The effect that his agenda and style are having on other people on the vibe and success of those meetings, how other people see him. I would definitely mention that thing about restating stuff that was already said, the thing about interjecting when you're speaking, chiming in unnecessarily, finishing your sentences to show how he gets it and that he often doesn't get it, I would

literally say, the sense I'm getting is that you really want to show us that you're on top of it, that you're ahead of things, that you don't need to be managed, and I appreciate that. But the reality is that sometimes you don't get it. I often see you thinking more about what you can say than actually listening when your job in those moments is to understand, take notes, and execute. And then you might want to wrap up with something like, I know this might be hard feedback to take in, but I hope you can see that I'm sharing it with you because I genuinely want you to succeed here. I know you're frustrated about not getting a promotion. And if a promotion is what you want, then this is what you need to work on. And if you crack it, you're going to go far.

That's perfect, dude. No notes. This conversation could honestly change this guy's life. Listen, that's all I'd say at first. Let him take that in. Let him respond. My hope is that he thanks you for this and he asks a few questions and he goes off and thinks about it and he makes some changes. If he doesn't respond well or if your words don't seem to really land with him, then I would back off. But that would be good information for you and your supervisor too. Yeah, if he's truly promotable, then he is going to listen to this feedback. If he doesn't, then he doesn't actually want to be a good partner to them and learning rise up. Yeah. So that's my take. I think 80% or more of this problem is going to be solved by him radically shifting his lens and

his attitude. And if he works on this and he gets better, then you can help him look into a course. Exactly. Best not put the cart before the course, you know? Yeah, foundation first, then sign him up for Toastmasters. I'm curious to know if some of the challenges that seem to be more about technical skills, like talking and fits and starts and filler words and being nervous, I wonder if those will also be resolved by this bigger conversation or if there is a technical aspect to his problem. Well, my theory is that it will. He's probably sputtering and flailing and starting and stopping because he's nervous and confused and self-conscious, okay, because on some level he knows he shouldn't be talking, but he can't help himself. And he's like, I need to say something so that people know that I'm

smart and paying attention. If you just have a regular question, you just ask that question. But if you're like, how do I turn this into his speech on the fly? And you're not good at that, which nobody really is for good reason, then yeah, you're going to have a problem. So I think if he just shuts up, he won't have to worry about his performance because he's not performing anymore. That's a really good point, because he probably looks around and he sees people's own. out or going cold. But then he keeps going, hoping he can like win them back over or prove that he should be talking and that just makes him more confused, more anxious. And since he's not really connected to the audience and what they need, it's making it really hard to even stay on message.

So just racking focus back to the audience might clear most of that up. There's a lot of podcasters that ramble. I mean, I'm sure I do it too sometimes. But they'll ramble and I'm thinking, why are you still talking? And the reason is because they're just thinking about their performance on Mike. They're not thinking about what the audience needs. So if you're going to be a good host. You need to mercilessly cut things that the audience doesn't need that are self-serving. But look, if this kid still struggles, he might need some additional training. That's great. Hope he finds it. If he doesn't improve at all, he might not be the kind of guy who should be doing any public speaking at all, and that's okay too. But I do think he should know about this.

I think he deserves a real shot, and he's lucky to have a boss like you. I'm actually excited to hear how this goes. Good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. use descriptive subject lines, that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're toiling away for a grade A Machiavellian narcissist, your business partner has used your criminal past to push you out of the company you started, or you're panicking that your brother-in-law is moving your sister and their kids to a cabin in the middle of nowhere to murder them. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It's a lot of fun. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you. It's in your inbox most Wednesdays. It's a two-minute read. Wisdom from the episodes, wisdom from Our Lives, wisdom from Feedback Friday, mistakes other people have made that we've all learned from. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Okay. What's next?

Hey guys, I'll start with a quick update from Feedback Friday episode 808. My wife wrote in after I had been rejected from the FBI. Then last December, I accepted a position with the IRS. I completed my federal law enforcement training and am now a special agent with the IRS, criminal investigation division. That sounds awesome. I'm glad we're reading this letter. I was excited about this one, Gabe. So this was an interesting letter, this earlier one. It was his dream to work at the FBI. His wife really wanted to support him after that setback. It was really sweet. It was sweet. If I recall correctly, I think we talked about some good ways to support a partner after they go through a disappointment and just like how to recover from rejection in general. Keep going. Stuff like that.

And apparently it paid off. Super happy to hear you landed on your feet, man. It's a great news. It's funny how this stuff happens. You know, when when God closes a door, he opens an audit. He opens an audit. He opens an investigation. It makes you show receipts for that meal at the sizzler. That's $1,100. I know people think of the IRS as this super boring functional agency, but obviously it is a very important agency.

The criminal investigation division's got to be kind of interesting. I mean, you're basically doing police work, building cases, but financial ones, and that sounds pretty cool, actually. You guys recently took a letter from a guy who's ex-committed PPP Idol, that's economic injury, disaster loan, and other COVID relief fraud during the pandemic. And I wanted to share some additional information with you. The FBI is actually not the correct agency to contact about PPP loan fraud. And federal prosecutors don't like cases that are very complex unless an investigator they have a

relationship with is bringing it to them. That's super interesting. It also makes a lot of sense. Also, weirdly great plug for six minute. better text your DA buddies on the regular, or you won't get to slap cuffs on a perp who made up employees to buy a freaking Gwagon. You know the spiel. It's 100% free. It's not gross. It's not shmoozy. It's on the thinkific platform at six minute networking.com. Okay, relationships, man, they are everything, everywhere, and every industry. The IRS criminal investigation division

is handling most PPP loan fraud cases due to their complex financial nature and because they often intersect with employee tax evasion schemes. If that listener wants to see, seek a legal remedy, he should reach out to his local IRS criminal investigation office. The fake financials that is ex-used to secure the loan could be used to start a tax evasion case because she probably didn't put that on her tax returns. Great point. So money. No pun intended. Yeah, I bet she didn't report her fake everything on her tax returns. She just cash the checks. In the FBI's defense, a lot of the offices are short-staffed after the administration change and fired all agents who had anything to do with the January 6th cases.

Rest assured, Jordan, PPP loan fraud is being investigated, but it mostly isn't by the FBI. The statute of limitations for those cases was increased to 10 years, so we have time to catch them. My office has a $3 million PPP loan case going to trial this month, and the IRS Criminal Investigation Division has a 94% conviction rate. Oh, that's great to know. Damn, that's a high conviction rate. That is some like North Korea level conviction rate. I mean, not quite, but man, I'm guessing. It's giving red scare. It's giving CCP. Yeah, it's, that's a high conviction rate, man. I'm guessing

once the government has proof that you stole funds and you're going to court, you are basically totally screwed. You are done. Oh, and aggravated identity theft using a stolen identity in the commission of a felony, that carries a mandatory two-year sentence for each stolen ID. Every fake employee, the ex-made up, will carry a two-year sentence if she's convicted. Wow. Based on that story, there were at least three fake employees. So that would be six years on top of the base crime. Her ex won't be seeing the son till he's an adult, and the IRS has forfeiture power, so that high-end home she bought and renovated can be seized. If you have any further questions that involve financial crimes, feel free to reach out. Signed, the tax man,

taking an ax man to these low lives and transactions. It should be transactions. Yeah? Yeah. I just didn't want to go full T-pane on that Wisconsin. What's that line in that T-pain song? Oh, God, I don't know. I have a mansion. in Riscan, or whatever. Where are we in this side off? Transactions. It's not just an infraction for which the feds lose their attraction. We're getting traction with these subtractions, which gives me a great deal of satisfaction.

Nicely done, Gabe. This letter has given me a great deal of satisfaction, too, because y'all know I have a raging justice boner for this stuff. I find people who steal government funds. That's my money. It's our tax money. I find these people absolutely despicable. We all foot the bill for their gross selfishness, and they always buy the dumbest stuff to like five cameras for their vacation.

It never goes into an IRA, does it? Yes. God, I was so glad to learn that there's a division whose sole purpose is taking these turds down and just flushing them. So not much to add here. We just wanted to feature this one because we still get a decent amount of letters about whether people should report COVID fraud or they know their neighbor did this and that. I was happy to hear that these cases are still being taken seriously. So if anyone listening ever wants to report someone who stole government funds, now you know the right department. You can find a list of field offices by region on the IRS website, which will link in the show notes.

Congrats again on the new job, my friend. Way to roll with the punches. I'm sure you're doing excellent work, work that matters to all of us. Thank you for your service and keep up the great work. You know what you don't need to steal millions of dollars in government funds in order to enjoy? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audiobooks a week, prepping for the show, and let's be real, there is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all.

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Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay. recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler. So a friend of mine's father recently passed away, and she and her siblings have been dealing with all of the admin when a parent passes away, settling the estate, selling the house, and handling insurance and all of that stuff. And her father had a will. The will was very clear. Everything was in order. This percentage to this sibling, this percentage to that, you know, all of that pretty standard. When they started distributing any remaining money from his accounts, they learned that their dad had not updated the

beneficiary forms at all of his banks since he went through a divorce and he went through a bunch of life changes and the family had changed since then. So like one bank account didn't have one and then another account listed his ex-wife as the beneficiary, even though that didn't really reflect the will and she might or might not play ball on dispersing the funds properly. So now they can't do what the will clearly stipulated just from a bureaucratic point of view and it's becoming a huge headache and it's probably going to be fine in the end, but it's just way more complicated than it should be. So what I've learned from her and my recommendation of the week is how important it is to make sure that all of your beneficiary forms are filled out up to date and talking to your parents about making

sure that theirs are all squared away before it becomes a problem. Some accounts that you have don't even require you to fill one out weirdly enough, so sometimes you don't even realize that nobody is listed as the beneficiary, which could mean that the assets go into probate, which, as you probably know, is a huge nightmare, often a huge waste of money. So this is super easy. It takes like five minutes. Oftentimes you can fill out these beneficiary forms online. You can do it through your institution's website or you can call them and they'll just walk you through it. I'm doing this myself. I asked my parents to make sure they did it. It's nice to know all of that is squared away. Just a few minutes of you and your family's time now could just save a ton of stress and regret later on.

So I wanted to share that with you. Yeah, Salad Recade, Gabriel. My parents did this as well recently. They just sort of went over everything. A friend of mine, his dad died and it was a mess. He had like multiple mortgages and all these bills and he wasn't sharing them with anybody. So months after his dad passed away, they would get another thing that was like, hey, you're still on the hook for financing this furnace. And they're like, what are you talking about? You know, it was over and over and over. And it was a huge headache and a massive source of regret. And I guess he was also hiding things. Like, he didn't want anybody to know that he didn't have his whatever set up. So it was like such a pain. Yeah, get this done. It'll save your kids or whoever else, a ton of time, a ton of

headache. It saves a ton of money. So there's a little bit of a different kind of recommendation, but I like throwing in some life pro tips like this here and there. And on a related note, I'll just say if you don't have a will and or trust, you need to get on that. There's no excuse not to have one in this day and age. It's insanely easy to set up. You can do it online with a real lawyer, by the way. Don't just do like a form. Get a real attorney. We happen to have a sponsor for this right now. Trust and will. They make estate planning really easy. Most people complete everything in about 15 minutes, which is as long as it's simple and that's amazingly fast, by the way. You can go to trustinwill.com slash Jordan for 10% off customized legal documents. If you've been sleeping on

this, this is your reminder. This just happens to match Gabe's tip, which is cool. I hope you all don't mind. But you need to do this. By the way, I had one will, Gabe, and then we had kids and all this stuff. And I took that and I gave it to the California attorney that I have now. And I was like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, this here's what I got. And she's like, well, okay, this doesn't include your business. And I was like, how is that possible? And she's like, well, you don't have crypto, do you? I was like some and she's like, yeah, none of that's mentioned in here. Oh, wow. That's good to know.

Yeah. And I remember talking with the lawyer about it, but here's the problem. And this is going to sound a little, what's the word, agist or whatever. The previous lawyer I had was 70 and semi-retired and insisted on federal expressing everything. And it costs like $100 to transfer documents to her. And when we wanted stuff updated, she wanted us to highlight it and FedEx it back to her. Let me guess that she did not know what the blockchain was. Right.

So I told her about Bitcoin and she was basically like, that's not really a real thing. thing, so who cares? Don't worry about your nickels in the piggy bank suite. It was pretty much that. She was like, that's not really a thing, so don't worry about it, kind of assuming it was all just fad and was going to go away. She doesn't realize it's actually an asset class and you have to deal with it properly. Anyway, so our new lawyer who's a little bit younger and sort of on top of this stuff was like, no, no, no, this is a disaster. You're so lucky we're changing this. Another great life pro tip right there. Yes, make sure you get somebody who understands what you're doing. If you get somebody who does trust in estates for people and they've never done one for people with

business, get somebody who does it with a business, especially if it's an online business and not a brick and mortar. That's going to be different. And if you have a bunch of, I don't know, crypto or something like that or holdings abroad, you need to make sure people have experience with this because a lot of lawyers will just be like, it's fine. I put your Chase account on there. And it's like, okay, now all this stuff is now in probate or just floating around and you don't know what to do with it and your kids are fighting over it or whatever. It's not good. You do not want that. Anyway, there's a subreddit for the show. A lot of listeners in there. Gabe's in there. Bob's in there. I'm banned. Whatever. You can find it on Reddit at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

All right. Next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a mom of four kids ages six, five, three, and two. And my husband and I have been married for almost eight years. He's always been my biggest supporter, encouraging, empowering, gentle, patient, and great about sharing responsibilities at home. After our second child was born, I decided to go back to school for music therapy, partly to help provide additional income for our family, but also because I was struggling with new parent identity loss and needed something that was just for me. Music has always been a profound source of connection for me, and I've always loved serving others, so music therapy felt like the perfect merging of those callings. Amazing. Love that. My husband supported us financially while I pursued my degree. I completed a

five-year program in three and a half years, all while navigating young toddlers and adding our third child to our family. She attended classes with me for her first six weeks of life until she could begin the university's daycare program. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA when I was pregnant with our fourth child. I pushed through my internship while dealing with preeclampsia, gave birth, took six weeks postpartum, finished my internship, and passed the board certification exam all before my fourth child was a year old. Holy moly, you are a warrior, madame. This is an insane amount of stuff to take on. I would not, I would not make it through that. I am exhausted just hearing about that.

I know. To pull it off at that level of success is really something. During those years, though, our family was under significant financial strain. Living on one income with four small kids was incredibly difficult, and no matter how much we budgeted or cut back, we constantly felt like we were drowning. At the same time, my mental health was deteriorating. Being home full-time, while meaningful in many ways,

amplified my OCD, depression, and anxiety. I struggled with identity loss, isolation, and feeling like I wasn't contributing in the ways I wanted to. I struggled with suicidal ideation and even had a near attempt when my fourth was a few months old. Oh, wow, I'm very sorry to hear that. That is, this is tough. So this period, super productive, stimulating, gratifying,

but it clearly caught up with you while you were home with the baby. Poor thing. I hope you found the support that you needed. would have to talk to. I'm in therapy and have been for years. Great. All right. That was my next question. Very glad to hear you have that support. I began working part-time as needed as a music therapist at a hospital nearly two years ago, but it wasn't enough to stabilize either our finances or my mental well-being. I just want to wrap my head around this for a second. Postpartum stuff, OCD, depression, anxiety, identity loss, isolation, all these big existential struggles in a near suicide attempt. And her next

move, Gabriel, is to go back to work. Yeah. So work is clearly very important to her, but you're right, that is a very heavy chapter to move on from, and then to go from that back into therapeutic work yourself. Yeah, it is a lot. I'm just picturing her working at this hospice center, which I imagine that's got to be a pretty intense environment, sitting with people who are dying. And she's thinking, yeah, three weeks ago, I almost killed myself. Anyway, let me shake this tambourine at a cancer patient. I don't know. Look, I'm not trying to make light of this. It's just, it's a heavy. role for somebody who's struggling in their own life as well. That's all. No, no, no, it's a good point. Not just that she's throwing herself into work, but that she's throwing herself into this work.

Yeah. And I'm sure she could have written many paragraphs about the relationship between her own suffering and this big calling of hers, because there's must be some connection there. Maybe working with people who are dying also helps put things into perspective for her. That would be one big upside to going back to work when you're this fragile. All of this made the idea of moving into a full-time role feel not just practical but necessary, both for our family's survival and for my own sense of purpose and stability. She keeps mentioning this purpose and identity thing, so that's clearly really important to her. Then last year, I was offered a full-time hospice music therapy position. This job opened a lot of doors for us and offered essential income, stability, and health insurance.

My husband and I discussed the major changes, our two youngest, starting daycare, him taking on school drop off and pick up, and me working a structured 8 to 5 with a long commute. Those conversations went well, and I felt completely supported. So I started the job, excited about the opportunity. We're six weeks into this transition, and now things at home feel like they are unraveling. The house is a mess, the Google calendar is overflowing, and the learning curve at a corporate national hospice company has been astounding. What's been especially hard, though, is how drastically my husband's behavior has shifted since I started working full time. The man who has always been supportive, patient, and involved has become moody, irritable,

and short with both me and the kids. He's begun yelling and saying demeaning things to me in front of them, and he stopped doing many of the household tasks he previously handled without issue. He often complains that taking the kids to and from school is hurting his work and productivity, and when I offer to adjust my schedule or take one of those responsibilities back, he refuses saying things like you wanted to go be a boss babe you said your schedule wouldn't allow it so

stick to it and get out of here yikes but then in moments when I'm simply communicating logistics when I need to leave or get home what my work day looks like etc he'll say things like I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while oh man this is tough so obviously

he's going through it too and this way of communicating is not super kind and not helpful he sounds angry angry or just over overwhelmed and probably out of control. Which can cause a person to lash out for sure. Not entirely fair, but understandable. But whatever it is, even if he has a point, not the most productive way to communicate that to your spouse.

The inconsistency has been confusing and painful, and I'm not sure how to interpret what is really going on. That's a really nice way to put it. I love that you're asking that question. Same. The interpretation is everything, right? Yeah, staying open to what your husband actually means by this stuff as opposed to deciding what he means and then, like, like building a case around that, that's going to make this much easier to work on, for sure. Meanwhile, my mental health has actually improved.

Being back a work full time has given me purpose, structure, and stability. We're finally climbing out of a deep financial hole. But my husband refuses individual and couples therapy saying he's quote unquote fine, and that I'm the one who should increase my sessions if I need help or support. Fascinating how often we hear that. That's too bad. Am I failing my family the way my husband insists? am. Is this tension just growing pains after six years of me being the primary parent? Or is there

something deeper going on? How can I navigate this transition, support my marriage, and still keep the progress I've worked so hard to make personally and professionally, signed trying to find the formula to conduct this increasingly unwieldy orchestra? Okay, what a story. What a fascinating person. So much going on here. So I just want to reiterate what you've built, this large family, a meaningful career, a very complex but stimulating life, through sheer hard work and a strong sense of what lights you up, it's extremely impressive and honestly, it's very inspiring. Like I said, you sound like a badass. I probably couldn't achieve half of this with four small kids, so well done. But all of that has played out alongside and probably informed in various ways some very real

mental health struggles. And now these challenges in your marriage. And I'm sorry about that. I can hear how stressful and confusing it is. It must make all of this so much hard. candidly, the challenges you and your husband are having, which by the way, I don't think are super unusual. I think all couples struggle at various points to manage stress, communicate well, collaborate effectively, parent young kids, but they're the kinds of challenges that you'll probably make the most progress on in couples therapy. But the fact that he doesn't want to go, that's a real obstacle and also probably an interesting data point in all this. Not only is your husband very different from you in this department, I mean, therapy is your career. I'm guessing he's resisting

going because he doesn't believe that he's responsible for these challenges and or he doesn't want to have to deal with what might come up in session, whether that's specific issues between you or his own stuff or just the basic vulnerability of working with a therapist. Or maybe having to give up the narrative that this is all her fault, basically, or that she's the only one who needs to change here. Yes, whereas agreeing to go means opening the door to a new story about what's happening between them, a more complicated one, and I think probably a more accurate one. which would mean having to take ownership of his piece of the situation.

I can empathize with him to some degree. A lot of people, especially men, especially men who are new to therapy, they can find the whole project daunting. I get that. But when one spouse is saying, I'm fine, you're the one who should go to therapy more often if you need help. Not only is that kind of invalidating, but it shuts the conversation down. It just narrows the paths forward. Yeah, and it puts the onus back on our friend here to make all the progress in their relationship,

which is tough. Which, to be fair, she might be able to make progress by, taking care of her side of the street, that is possible, but she's already in therapy. It's not like she hasn't gone near any of this stuff before. And the particular problem they're wrestling with, it's not just an issue with her, right? It's about their marriage. It's about the way they talk to each other, the way they support each other, how they work through conflicts and grievances or whatever. So I'm not sure in what world this is just a her problem. Agreed completely. And I'd actually go a step further and say it sounds like there's a lot happening on his side of the equation here. This anger he

has, the yelling, the saying demeaning things, his complaints about the impact the kids are having on his work, the passive aggressive comments about her and her career. Which are all new behaviors, let's remember. I think that's interesting. Right. She said he was always supportive and patient and involved and now he's moody, irritable, and short. Totally different, yeah. In what world is that entirely her problem to resolve? I mean, it can't be. Yeah. Even if he believes that she's the one provoking him, stressing him, that's still going through some process in him. He's still responsible for how he responds and how he communicates. But honestly, Jordan, like you said a moment ago, I think one likely explanation for this sudden change is that her husband is overwhelmed

and stressed and feeling out of control, because that does seem to be the one big thing that has changed is how they've had to reorient their lives to make her career possible. It's understandable. How could they not be? They have four young kids. They're juggling two big careers, the logistics sound bananas. They, until recently, were having money problems. They each want to contribute. They each want to be fulfilled. That might not always be possible at the same time. Like, this is a lot for any couple to deal with. Yes. And also as a man, I think I can understand why the financial piece of this might be particularly difficult for him. We don't know for sure, but I do wonder if maybe he's experiencing some unique stress and shame around struggling to provide for the family. And that's just

coming out his anger. That's a really interesting theory. So I agree with you that. he's not making things easier. If he just said, honey, I am totally overwhelmed. I'm angry. I'm not getting as much done as I used to. I'm struggling with what your new job is putting us through. I feel bad that I wasn't able to provide for us, whatever it is. You know, I want to support you, but this doesn't feel sustainable, anything like that. Just that would probably be a huge help. Totally different conversation, right? If he only learned how to do that in couples therapy, that would probably be a big win. Although I think he would probably learn a lot more than just that, but that's a useful thing to know how to do. But actually, my

original point was, I think we're both very identified with our friend here. We want her to have purpose in her life. I want her to be able to earn this money, then contribute to the family. She deserves all of it. She's worked so hard to get here. But I'm with you. I also do feel for her husband, and I just want to make some room for a guy who is probably struggling with some big stuff of his own, quite understandably, and doesn't really know how to address it. Totally. This amount of chaos and instability would do a number on anyone. I don't like the way he's trying to manage it, which is really not managing it. He's just lashing out and blaming her. But I agree with you. She'd only be helping them succeed if she took a real interest in his feelings right now, as much

of an interest as she hopes he'll take in hers. I also imagine that there are a few different sources of his anger, and probably his anger has a few different functions in their relationship. Just reading between the lines here, and I'm also going to be speculating a tiny bit, but her husband might have some complicated feelings about her new career. He might support support her in one way and maybe resent her a little bit in another way. Or he might not have realized until this moment that he would have preferred that she stay home with the kids or thought of herself as a mother first and a professional second. He might have some residual feelings about that period where she was really struggling. I mean, he might be worried about her

mental health still or her ability to handle all of this. Who knows, he might even be angry about the near-suicide attempt if he knows about that. I mean, he might just be anxious about the uncertainty of the whole situation, and that's what the anger is about. Good point. Like, have you really resolved all that? Is that going to happen again? As we were talking about earlier, being angry at her might also be a way for him to avoid looking at his role in all this. I mean, he might be angry at himself for agreeing to the new job, for not being able to manage things as well as he thought he could. But instead of trying to figure out what he needs to do to adapt, he's locating that in her. So the anger might be a little projective in that way and then also protective. Like, I'm so angry at

you for putting us in this situation, you fix it that way. I don't have to acknowledge that I signed up for this and might actually have to find better ways of working with it. Yeah, I could see that. I also wonder if this anger and this passive aggression, if it might also be a language for a message, he doesn't quite know how to articulate. Interesting. So what do you mean? Like, that's the only way he has of communicating? Yes, and that he might be communicating something more than just his disapproval or his anxiety. Again, I'm speculating, but when he says, You wanted to go be a boss, babe, so stick to it and get out of here. He might be saying, well, you said you were up for this.

You rearranged our entire life to make it happen after a very crazy period. So now prove you can actually do it. Show me it was worth it. Ah, interesting. So the subtext might be he's challenging her. He's holding her accountable. That's a nice way to put it. Or when he says, I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while,

what he might actually be saying is, I just wish you would prioritize me. You know, I feel disconnected from you or I feel misunderstood or I feel uncared for. What he might be saying really is, I miss you. Interesting. So the anger is just the tip of the iceberg, but underneath it is all these other needs and feelings and messages that he refuses to explore because he won't go to therapy. Yeah, I mean, I think it's possible. And if it's not those particular messages, it's probably other ones.

So when she asks, is there something deeper going on, I suspect that that's part of the something deeper. This is not ultimately a conflict about the kid's school pickup. or what their workday looks like or whose career should take priority. This is a conflict about what they need as individuals and as a couple and how they feel about themselves and how they feel about the other and what this new lifestyle is bringing up for them and probably years of challenges and tension that seem to have accumulated and are now boiling over. And ultimately, I think it's about how they take care of each other through all of this,

how they evolve to service this very ambitious vision for their lives. Also, I'm getting the sense that they are just exhausted. And when you're exhausted, it's really hard to show up as your best self. Sometimes anger is just the easiest way to communicate when you're depleted. I do it all the time. I snap at my parents for something minor, and I realize, Papa Jordi needs a nap and a banana. The obvious answer is get more sleep, take care of yourselves,

but with four young kids in two careers, they might just go through a period where they're pushed to the brink a little bit, and they need to learn how to work with that stress better. So are you failing your family the way your husband insists you are? Calling what's happening here failing. I think that's probably overly simplistic. I understand that your husband feels you aren't prioritizing the right things. He's allowed to feel that way.

He's allowed to check in and ask if you are. And you're allowed to decide for yourself if that's true. In an ideal world, that's an ongoing conversation between the two of you. Also, you haven't told us much about your kids what they need from you, what challenges might be coming up for them. so it's hard to know if you're failing them. I can't say for sure that you aren't, but you haven't shared anything that would suggest that you're like seriously neglecting them

or anything like that. I don't know, if you guys were like forgetting to pick up your kids from school regularly or one of your kids were having behavioral issues that weren't getting addressed or, you know, like multiple nights a week, mom is just MIA and we can't reach her or whatever. That's a different story.

But even then, I would probably say slapping a label like failing on yourself kind of misses the nuance of a problem. parent who is trying to be a great mom and also wants to have a meaningful career. What I'm hearing is that you and your husband are juggling multiple goals and responsibilities, and that means sometimes handling parts of your life imperfectly. That's just what happens. I don't think the standard here needs to be perfection, whatever that means.

I don't know any parent who crushes everything 100% all the time. And the standard here, I think, should be, are we supporting each other? Are we talking to each other? Am I clear on my priorities? Am I giving all of us every advantage I possibly can, given the constraint? here. That is something you can achieve. I also wonder where this failing idea comes from because she never said that her husband said that about her. He might be implying it. And hey, maybe that is how he feels. But as you pointed out, Jordan, she is being pretty thoughtful about what interpretations

she runs with. And it sounds like this is one of those interpretations. Her husband can have some legitimate questions and concerns about how they're managing their family, how they're balancing their careers without implying that she is a total failure and all of the judgment that comes with a label like that. I do wonder if the concept of failure is a big one for her, especially given what a high performer she is. The mother of three who finished a five-year program in three and a half years with an infant in one arm and got a 3.9 GPA while pregnant and work through her pregnancy and all these medical issues, I mean, she must hold herself to insanely high standards. Yeah, and those standards must be a big part of how she sees herself. What kinds of experiences she wants to have in life,

what she deserves. Dude, I have massive respect for anybody who achieves at a high level, but I think we all know that high achievers, super ambitious people, I'm not going to say there's something wrong with them. I'm probably falling to that camp sometimes, but there is always more going on beneath the surface. And in her case, anything less than exceptional might automatically make her feel like a failure. And I can only imagine the impact that that belief must have on her identity and on her mental health. Yeah, that's where my mind went. I'm sure there were many things contributing to the OCD and the depression, the anxiety, the meaninglessness. I'm sure she and her therapist have talked a ton about this, but holding herself to

this abstract, impossible monolithic standard, that's got to be a big part of it and how she meets all these difficult feelings that result to say nothing of the childhood and life experiences that created these ideas in the first place. 100%. I would really encourage her to consider a less rigid, less black or white rubric for what success and failure actually look like in a situation like this, I also just want to make room once again for her husband's feelings about this perfectionism. In one way, he might be reinforcing the perfectionism by getting angry at her for falling short as a mom and as a wife. In another way, though, he might actually be shining a light on the absurdity of it, like, this is the rubric

by which you wanted to measure yourself. You know, how's that working out for you? Interesting. Man, so much going on between these two. So we went deep into this one. I hope we've given you some new angles here. I do think there's something deeper going on there always is. I don't think this is just growing pains after six years of being the primary parent, although this is obviously a huge shift for you guys. It was bound to be a little bumpy. The best thing you can do to navigate this transition, support your marriage, protect all your progress, is to communicate with your husband as well as you can. Try to understand where he's coming from. Try to empathize with him while you take care of yourself. Keep taking care of yourself as best you can, and your therapist should be a big part of that.

than anything, instead of looking at your life and going, I need to do this perfectly, I need to get this right, I would try as much as you can to look at it instead and go, I need to keep learning as best I can, I need to be open to evolving, to handle all of this as well as I can, knowing I'm not always going to get it perfect, but that I can always adjust along the way and do better, whatever that means to you. I think you're going to get a lot further that way with far less suffering, sending you, your husband, and your kids a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Corey Dr. Row and our skeptical Sunday on the gold standard if you haven't done so yet. Show notes on the website, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadasilowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Jamie Mustard, who signed a billion-year contract at age five, while he still believed in Santa Claus, and spent his child. inside Scientology's C.org, where kids were warehoused like livestock and denied even basic education. The story of the lost children of Scientology has never been told. And I really do believe if people knew what happened to us in the 70s, 80s and 90s, what happened to us kids

in that environment, they would stop it. There's a line for the suffering of children. By the age of five or six years old, I just basically started to go completely numb. These thousands of kids, they have autoimmune disease. They're all doing consistent. instruction, most of them, some of the more successful ones get lucky because they become contractors. But if people knew it would happen to us, which is the story that I wrote, that people would stop. It would be the end. On the day of my birth, I was handed over to a religious paramilitary organization, high control authoritarian group in a slum tenement, where I spent the first two and a half years of my life with little to no human touch. And that would be the beginning of pretty

much a 20-year gauntlet where I wouldn't go to school and I would literally be animalized. We weren't looked at as anything of value until we could work or contribute labor. I never went to school. At the age of 20, I could barely write characters, and I didn't know how to use a comma or construct a sentence or a paragraph. The reason I never spoke out is what I write about that happened in me, it's humiliating. I don't want anyone to know any of the things that we've talked about today. I mean, I think Scientology is the most sophisticated mind.

control system, probably in the history of the human species. I'm starting for the first time of my life to be shame-free. To hear what happened during the largest FBI raid in U.S. history, which makes you wonder how this all stayed hidden in plain sight, and when he finally escaped, nearly illiterate at age 19, check out episode 1270 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. I've gothomes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows what, when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house of the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home. is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you get kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, transportation options. That's why Homes.com

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