The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1283: Eva LaRue & Kaya McKenna Callahan | 12 Years Hunted by a Stalker

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

She played a DNA expert on TV, but real forensics took 12 years to catch her stalker. Eva LaRue and daughter Kaya McKenna Callahan share what they endured.Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1283What We Discuss with Eva LaRue & Kaya McKenna Callahan:For 12 years, Eva LaRue and her daughter Kaya were stalked by a man who sent graphic letters detailing plans to rape, torture, and murder them, signed "Freddy Krueger." The FBI profiler noted his clear, coherent writing made him especially dangerous.The stalker eventually called Kaya's high school pretending to be her father, leaving 19 voicemails overnight threatening to kill any teacher, student, or administrator who got in his way, proving his threats were escalating from paper to real-world action.Traditional law enforcement couldn't help because stalking laws require physical contact or break-in before police can act. The case was only solved when FBI agents used forensic genealogy — the same technology that caught the Golden State Killer (as discussed with investigator Paul Holes on episode 725) — matching DNA from the stalker's discarded Arby's cup.The psychological toll rewires how victims move through the world permanently. Kaya never posts locations in real time, always makes four left turns to verify she's not being followed, and grew up not knowing what life felt like "before" fear — because the stalking began when she was five.Speaking up and documenting everything matters. Eva's decision to report the letters to the FBI (through a CSI Miami advisor's connection) kept the case alive for 12 years until technology caught up. If you're being stalked, trust your instincts, preserve evidence, and know that persistence can eventually lead to justice.And much more...And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: BetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordanDeleteMe: 20% off: joindeleteme.com/jordan, code JORDANMomentous: 20% off first order: livemomentous.com, code JORDAN20NordVPN: Exclusive deal: nordvpn.com/jordanharbingerSuperpower: $20 off membership: superpower.com, code JORDAN (and tell 'em we sent you)Homes.com: Find your home: homes.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. The day after filming for that year, we jumped on a plane and we went to, and we were not there 36 hours in Italy. Then we wake up in the middle of the night. You know, you've got jet lag. You're exhausted. It was like 3 o'clock in the morning. Our bedroom door opens up. And you know how when there's a light behind somebody, you can't see their face because they're in shadow?

I couldn't see who it was, but it was obviously a man. He didn't answer. And he stood there for a few seconds, and then he closed the door. In that moment, it was God's answer to me, saying, if I want you dead, I will get you in any country, in any city, in any room, anywhere in the world. So, relax, because this person came within 10 feet of me and my daughter while we're laying in bed. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people

and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact. your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional Hollywood filmmaker, neuroscientist, or real-life pirate. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs, these are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more.

that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today's episode messed me up a little bit. Not going to lie. When this was first pitched to me, I was like, all right, stalker story. Okay, not exactly rare. But then I watched part one of the documentary, and I immediately thought, wow, this is not normal stalker scary.

This is next level, deeply psychopathic nightmare fuel, a horror movie variety. My guests today are Ava LaRue, yes, from CSIMIME, a show that is still syndicated in over 100 countries and her daughter, Kaya. And what they went through is so disturbing that at multiple points, I'd pause a documentary and get up and drink a glass of water. This wasn't paparazzi nonsense. This wasn't a creepy fan crossing the line. This is a man who wrote graphic, detailed rape and murder threats, signed them Freddie Kruger, made it painfully clear that he was not fantasizing. He was rehearsing. So today we're talking FBI profilers, erotomania, which is like a crazy, quote-unquote, disease that some people have.

Hypervigilance, sleeping with weapons under your pillow, genetic genealogy, and the kind of fear that never really turns off, especially when you're trying to raise a kid. This episode is intense. It's a little bit scary. It's also a stark reminder of how vulnerable we all are. So if you've ever thought, that could never happen to me. Well, buckle up because Ava thought that too. Now, here we go with Ava LaRue and Kaya McKenna Callahan. When I was pitched this, I was like, okay, stalker, that's so common in Hollywood. What's unique here? And then they're like, no, no, no, watch 10 minutes of the docu series.

And I watched part one. And I was like, Jen, cancel my lunch thing. I got to watch this psychopath. Like, I can't sleep tonight unless this guy, I know this person is like in prison or dead. And now he's out. And it's incredibly scary. You really went through it with this guy. So let me back up a little bit because I think people are already confused, which is, you know,

I take pride in confusing people in the first 90 seconds of the show. So you're one of the main stars on CSI, Miami. Give me a scale of the reach of that show, because it's still syndicated in like 100 countries. You can still catch it. At one point, it was in almost every country. And it was the most watched show in the world for a while there. So I mean, even when we go to France, she'll get stopped,

and they know it as Les Experse. So we always say that to each other because they're like, oh, you're on Les Experse. We still get stopped. in Europe. It's still playing in crime time in Italy and France and some countries. Yeah. So I don't know what it was. I think maybe it was the aesthetic of the show, like just the visuals of the show, that it ended being more popular than the other franchises. Yeah, I mean, it's a good recipe, right? Everybody likes hot tan people solving crimes in 48 minutes on a beach. And it's like using all this futuristic

technology, which nobody had heard of at the time. I'm a former lawyer. I guess I'm still technically a lawyer. And one of the things we studied in law school was how juries, at the time this show was really popular, juries were like, well, where's the forensic DNA evidence? And the prosecutor's like, dude, this is a shoplifting case. Like there's no DNA evidence, bro. Oh, that's right. They call it the CSI effect. You can't get a freaking conviction. It's like, that's him on the tape. And then people are like, enhanced. And it's like, that's not a thing. They're like, which way was the blood spatter going? Right. Yeah. Man, this is a Wendy's. In that shoplifting case. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it became really, really hard because before it was like, yeah, that looks like a person who shoplift's guilty probation.

That blurry photo looks like our culprit. Yeah, it's like, that's good enough. And it's like, wait a minute, you didn't run this through the special computer that matches the fingerprint eye retina thing from every person in the world. It's like, that's not real, dude. That's not a thing. And that's the crazy thing. So here I was playing a DNA specialist on CSI for, you know, almost 10 years. And we're catching our bad guy in 43 minutes, not including. commercials and in real life, the FBI would not have the technology to catch our stocker for 12 more years. Right, right. Yeah, we'll get to that. I have a lot of questions about that because I think it's fascinating. Now, in the beginning of the docu series, you mentioned that when you were young, your parents divorced and your mom was actually convinced that your dad was having you followed. So that was bizarre, because what a sort of full circle kind of thing. And you must have grown up feeling somewhat paranoid then as well. Yeah? Well, you know, it's weird. I don't remember feeling that, but, you know, they say that energy or circumstances

tend to follow you through life until you work your way to the end of them. And who knew that that would be sort of the foreshadowing? Yeah, it's an interesting parallel, I suppose. Yeah, I didn't even know that story for like up until we did. Until we started talking about. Yeah. There was a lot of things we didn't know kind of about each other, how we felt about certain things or kind of how things really took place once we kind of really talked about the

timeline of everything. But that was something I was like, what on earth are you? talking about. And then I don't know if you know this, but my sister, she was part of a serial killer case. It must have been like 2009 or something like that. And I got a phone call for my sister. She was at work and she said, a friend of mine just saw a commercial. The L.A. County Sheriff's Department is running a commercial with like 53 women's photos. And a friend saw it and said, I was photo number 13, but I'm at work. I can't call. Well, you just call this 1-800 number and see what's up. So I call them and they say, oh, who do you know?

in the photos, in the commercial we ran, and I said, I know number 13, and they said, is she alive or dead? And I said, she's alive. What is this? Like, what is this about? And they said, well, there's a serial killer. Back in the late 70s and 80s, he was a photographer, and he would do the typical, I'll shoot your book for you, we'll go out into the Angeles Crest Forest, or we'll go out and shoot in Joshua Tree or some remote place. And sure enough, you know, I think he killed like 40-some women and he kept trinkets from each person that they killed. So and unfortunately, in a serial killer case, because it costs so much money to run DNA on every single case, they pick the three strongest DNA cases and they only run those three. And then that's what

constitutes a serial killer is when you get three convictions. But the rest of the those women, 40-some women, never got closure to their stories. They never knew for sure if he was their serial killer. So the LA County Sheriff's Department had just gotten a cold case grant, which oddly enough is how I came on CSI Miami. My character was a cold case grant. So E. And I started opening up all these cold cases to do my DNA, you know, analysis on. And so they got this cold case grant and they opened up this case. And my sister was number 13 in this case because when she was a teenager, we went to this weird little, they used to have these things called photo days, if you were an up-and-coming actress model. And all these, you know, unprofessional photographers would come and

shoot your pictures in this photo day weekend. And he shot my sister. But there were dozens of models and actresses and dozens of photographers. And my mom was there with us because we were just teenagers. So nothing happened to her, but her photos were in his cash. Dude, that still is really scary. Really? So close. Like a close brush and we ended up doing an episode of it on CSI Miami. I love that I was in that episode though, too.

Like, I feel like we've always had like a weird thread of connects of different. Yeah. Like that that literally happened to your sister. Yeah. And then we did the episode of it and I was in it. And then. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We need to have the connect stop now. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say this is the wrong kind of small world energy. Yeah, it really is. Like, you want it to be like, oh, my God, do you know the guy I'm dating was actually friends with my friend Kyle in college and he says he's an amazing guy? That's so great. Yours is like, oh, did you know my sister got in brush with that serial killer in the episode you were in CSM Miami?

And that person knows my stalker's FBI. Yeah, no, I'm good. I like my connect to somehow, like, connect to Merrill Street in some way. Like, that's the only kind of connect I want. I need to connect to lottery winners. That's my point. Right. Yeah, this is like the worst six degrees of Kevin Bacon game.

So there's a probably a better joke in there, but we don't have time. All right. So one of the thing I thought was kind of funny is you buy this, you buy this amazing house, and you buy it in an LLC. Shout out to Buffy the Vampires later for giving you that idea. Because then your name is not on the property in case you get a stalker. And you're like, I imagine at that point. I'm like, I'm six on the call sheet at CSI.

I'm not like one of the stars on there. Who's going to stock me? We ended up with four stalkers on that show. Emily had two. David Caruso had one and I had one. All at the same time. It was insane. Yeah, the David Caruso one, I read about that because I was like, wait, three people on CSI at the same time had a stalker.

And his was really creepy. I guess they caught her. She was in Austria. So it was like a German lady. And she had some weird shrine to him in her house with knife stab marks all over the face and head of the photo. She was threatening to kidnap his daughter, threatening to blow up her school, threatening to blow up his house. It was insane. Really insane.

Literally. These people are insane. Speaking of insane, you get on the show and you start to get fan mail as one does. I mean, I can kind of relate. No, not really. But how does, I'm probably getting different fan mail from you. In fact, I know I am because I watched the docu-series. That's good.

I'm glad for you. I'm glad. So far, so good. And mine was always good until this. Yeah. It's funny because I'm watching the docket series and I'm like, I don't have a stalker. I guess I need more listeners. I need more listeners until I find that group of that core group of like really.

freaking crazy people. But your listeners are all trying to solve the crime. They're fascinated with how the puzzle comes together. That's right.

They're smarter. Actually, that would be scary because they would be the scariest stalkers, right? They'd be people who like know to like

their fingerprints off of things. So I don't get any ideas, folks. But tell me how it all begins because your fan mail is good, right?

You're probably enjoy it. Like, you sit down with a coffee and you read a couple letters and you're like, all right, you know, getting your pedicure, reading a couple letters. Yeah.

Most people just want of headshot in an autograph and this one happened to come to my manager at the time. And he would only open probably every 10th letter or something. He wouldn't go through all the mail. He would just open every few. And he just happened to open this one and was like, oh my God, and sent it to me immediately. And right away, they started coming one right after the next. So even the first one, even though it escalated to become more depraved and more heinous and more disturbed. They started out pretty bad right away.

So do you think, I wondered about this when I watched it, do you think maybe you just missed the quote unquote normal ones? Maybe they just didn't get opened? Or did they start super creepy? As far as I know, they started creepy. Could have been coming longer than that. You're absolutely right. I didn't think about that.

Yeah, honestly, yeah. Even in the docu-series, I feel like when one of the attorneys starts talking about it and how the progression of stalking and the actual mental where it's like, first you think you're in love with the person and then you're upset by the fact that they haven't responded and you're rejected. I wonder if there were some early, like, just purely fan base. That's exactly what I was thinking. I was like, wait, the psychologist on the docus series is like, well, the phase one is this,

phase two is this. And I was like, Homeboy just seems to have skipped a phase three. So, like, did we miss phase one in phase two? Or was he just, like, in a hurry to get crazy fast? I don't know. We just skip right to nuts. And you're absolutely right because they would have gone under the radar before that. That's true.

You've just been like, okay, that's nice. That's one thing I never thought of, like, literally, this whole time. Yeah, they would have blended in with, like, oh, you looked so pretty in episode six. I really like you. And you're like, okay, next, right? It's all the same. And then it becomes like... Can I have a photo.

We maybe sent him a photo at some point. Oh, my gosh. That's crazy. That's a great question, though. and not Freddie Kruger. Yeah, like, it started off like that. Wow, you and I never thought of that. Well, you know what's funny is we keep saying, too, people keep asking us the jump-off

question usually, which is like, well, when did you know it was real? Immediately. Like, when you first read that letter, it's so jarring. You're not like, ah. Yeah. Just kidding, yeah. How funny. But, like, in all reality, that is interesting to think, like, oh, yeah, did you, we just miss

whatever the first step was. It's possible. I suppose if you sent him a photo, it's. in the evidence from the FBI, right? It's like the FBI would have that in their evidence trove. No, they only have the ones that we gave them. No, but he's saying when he showed up, like, when they busted into the house, I wonder if there was an evidence.

Like, he had a signed photo of you somewhere. Because he had every photo of you on a hard drive from every media appearance ever. Yeah, so crazy. But I'm wondering. And also the two steves that solved the case, they said that when they combed through his Facebook and his Instagram, he had left all these lovely flowery messages on our Instagrams. Like, you look beautiful today.

I love this picture, blah, blah, blah, as himself, because he was signing the letters, Freddie Krueger, so we didn't know who he was. One letter reads, I'm going to say this is going to be gross, and I apologize because it's probably a little bit triggering. But, dear Eva, I think about you all the time. Once I f*** you and your daughter, I will chop your bodies into small pieces.

It's so jarring, and it's actually much worse than that, but I think people get the idea. what's going through your head when you read that? Because you're probably like on your living room couch just looking at fan mail, right? You're not expecting anything like this. Yeah, and that was not the first letter that we got. I have to say after about the third one that we got,

I stopped reading them because that was all living in my head and kind of never knew. No, yeah, I didn't know. As a matter of fact, you're probably hearing that one for the first time. I mean, not that they all sound the same at some points, but I think you get to a point where it's like you block them out. Yeah. They blur together.

You can't hear it every time in different ways. Like, I can't replay it in my mind because it'll drive me crazy. But, yeah, up until I want to say he was caught, I really didn't know the extent or even, honestly, when we went to court. You didn't know the details. I didn't know the full details. I mean, I knew at a certain age that it was bad, that it was, you know, rape, mutilation, killing, dismembering. I knew that in a general sense. But it really, in this whole process, it's...

You never heard the words. Yeah, I never read the letters. She never read the letters. I didn't let her read any of it. I mean, she was like five, right, when this started? Yeah. So, you know. So you can't let that live in a kid's head.

I just had to be really specific about this is more than stranger danger. Like, you know, we all talk to our kids about strange. But this was an amped up version. Just I needed her to know that somebody specific, although we didn't know who it was, you know, to always keep her head on a swivel. But she had no idea what was in those letters until she was in her later teens. because I knew it would be living rent-free in her head forever. Yeah, it's traumatizing.

And it's traumatizing for you, too. I mean, what's going through your head when you read that? And what do you even do about something like that? Because most people don't know where to go or what to do with this. I did not know. At that point, you feel safe nowhere. There's nowhere that's safe because it's this amorphous threat, right? You don't know.

It doesn't have a face or a name or, you know, it's not a corporal bot. It just feels like it's coming from everywhere. So my hair started falling out. I broke out in hives like for a month and a half, almost two months. I was like a shell. I didn't know how to protect my kid. I didn't know how to protect myself. It doesn't matter how much security you have at your house.

You don't feel safe. I mean, look at the big celebrities with the endless amounts of money to secure themselves. The Brad Pitt's, the Gweth Paltrow's, the Sandra Bullocks. And somebody broke into Brad Pitt's house and was sleeping in his bed. Oh, my God. That's crazy. And then just recently, I think it was only a year ago in the last year, Sandra Bullock is hiding in her closet or in her pantry or something and her stalkers in her kitchen. You know, people have asked me, you know, did you have security?

How much? Well, yeah, but I don't have that kind of security. You know, nobody has that. And even so, I mean, somebody just ran down Jennifer Aniston's gate two months ago. Like, they just ran it down. Jeez. This is, it's crazy you have to live in like an embassy in order to. to be safe in Hollywood. This is actually really just super unnerving. And how many letters are you

getting at this point? And I assume they're all kind of saying a version of the same thing as before. Yeah, they're all saying some version of the same thing. And so in the beginning, I didn't know what to do. I went to local law enforcement. And they, unfortunately, by no fault of their own, but this is just the way the laws are set up, unless somebody breaks into your house or lays hands on you, there's really nothing that they can do. And because we don't even have a face or a name. So thankfully, being on CSI, one of our tech advisors, Mike Scott, he had been the chief homicide detective for LA County sheriffs. And he put me in touch with the FBI because he said, you know, these letters are interstate letters. So it falls under FBI jurisdiction, thankfully. And here's the weird thing that, you know, you can't just be, hey, 1,800 FBI. Hey, I got an issue. You know, you have to kind of have somebody who can connect. And even if you do, they have to be interested enough to even worry about your case. And I think only because I was on CSI where they fascinated with taking it.

And then again, for 12 years that, you know, they would, once a year, our FBI agent would sit us down for lunch and say, hey, just checking in, saying hi. I want you to know that your letters are at Quantico. And, you know, they've run them for DNA and they've run them for prints. But we're not getting a hit in COTUS because, as you know, Codis was the only national database. for DNA for law enforcement until the advent of 23 and me and ancestry and Jedmatch and these things. And more than 80% of the people in CODIS are already incarcerated because they've already been picked up for rape and for murder. And the rest are just John Doe rape kits that don't have a name yet. They haven't been busted. They haven't been picked up yet. So unless somebody was in CODIS and of course

on CSI Miami, everyone in CODIS. That's right. We got to catch, we only have 43 minutes. We got to catch somebody. Everyone's got retinal scan. Yep, every got a retinal scan. Yeah, you can get it from like a camera phone photo that's taken from 100 yards away. Yes. Like, oh, it got his retina.

Good, good. I was going through that red light. We got his retina. That's right. So are you worried that this guy knows where you live? Because he's sending them at this point to who your manager or your office or something like that. He doesn't know where your house is. Yeah, he started sending them.

to my publicist. So then the FBI would come to my publicist, Turk's house, and pick up these letters. And Turk would have to, you know, pick them up with tweezers. But they'd already been handled a thousand times, you know, by postal people and all the things. But then he would, like, take them with tweezers because we, at that point, could eyeball his scrawling from a mile away and know it was him. And then he'd put him in a Ziploc bag, and then the FBI would come to his house and pick them up. Gosh. What's scary is. I mean, I lived in Hollywood for a few years. Everybody knows where they film.

Yes. Everybody, I mean, you can't miss it. Those buildings are enormous, and it's like there's a huge sign out front that's a CSI Miami or something like that, right? It's so obvious. Right, but, you know, when we would go out on location, no one knew what our location was going to be that day.

And you know when you're driving around L.A. and you see like an upside-down yellow sign with, like, just letters on it. And that's so that if you're on that particular show, you know what those letters are and you know you're shooting in that neighborhood. but if you're just like a passerbyo, you would have no idea what show is shooting in that neighborhood

until you pull up and, you know, maybe you see something. But whenever we were shooting out on location, there was no way. But you know, Emily Proctor's stalker would always show up on location. Oh, my God. First thing in the morning. Yeah. Which is crazy that they didn't do anything.

She's like, who's leaking? Yes, someone is leaking the information, probably for money or something like that. That's really scary. Gosh. And then, of course, he doesn't have to barge into the location. He could just, like, follow you home. the FBI agent said that this was scary in particular

because it was very personal, very specific, and very violent, which is like a trifecta of, let's take this series. I mean, he's saying this other letter reads, I will stalk you, punish you and finally kill you, you bitch, I'll make your life a living hell. It's so weirdly personal from a guy who doesn't know you, which will get, you mentioned earlier that he's like personalizing everything.

And the way that he says he's going to torture and kill you is so graphic. again, I won't share it here, but the behavioral psychologist in the documentary, she says something terrifying, which is that the letter writer's thoughts and writing are clear and coherent, which means that he's much more dangerous because he could actually make good on the threats. And that gave me goosebumps, right, when I heard that. If you get a crazy letter and it's written in like crayon or something like that, upside down letters, you're like, okay, sure. But then this guy is like very calm, very specific, very personal. And yeah, he signs them all, Freddie. Kruger, which is just extra gross, because that's like the guy who shows up in nightmares, right? So he's definitely deliberately trying to be as scary and crazy as possible, but is also not so unhinged that he, like, doesn't know what day it is or where he lives or something. This is like a semi-functional human being. Right. And there were a few letters in there, too, where he said, well, you're on CSI,

you're a detective. Come find me. Come find me if you can. I mean, and he had a job. He had a job in a memory care facility. That's something that you actually do have to be functional to. be able to do. So yeah, like, it definitely was scarier knowing that he was a functional man that really could have made like good on his promise. Yeah, yeah. I'll talk more about him in a little bit. But is there a part of you being an actress on CSI? Were you thinking like at first anyway, oh good, they're going to take the DNA, the fingerprints, like I said earlier, yell enhance at some camera footage, find this guy, you know, at a Walgreens. I'll do it myself. I know

how to do it. I'll do it myself. I've yelled enhanced before it screens. I know how this is done. Just get, let me get hold of all the equipment that we have. We have the real equipment on set. I'll figure this out if you can't figure it out. Yeah, because basically all the same tech that you're pretending to have on CSI, it's like, oh, was there a moment where you were like, wait, this isn't real? I thought this was real. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I just assumed, I didn't even know having been on the show, even for those few years, I didn't know that everybody wasn't in CODIS. It's assumed that all bad guys were in CODIS. But, you know, if you're not caught being a bad guy beforehand, then you're not in CODIS. And not only that, but you can have a criminal record, and if you don't have a murder or a rape record, then you're still not in CODIS. Oh, I see. You're only an APIS because APIS is the national database for fingerprints.

But here's the other interesting thing. When we go to get our fingerprints done at the DMV, everybody, if you have a driver's license, your fingerprints are in your state. The states don't share fingerprints. I see. I didn't know that. Yeah. There's a national database for fingerprints, which is APHIS, but that's only. if you are a criminal, but if you're not a criminal and you just went to go get a driver's license,

only your state has your fingerprints. They don't share it across state lines in case you're criminal, which they normally are, is mobile and goes from state to state. Do they use it, though, in the state if you like it? Probably. I don't know. It's a good question, but probably, yeah. There might be constitutional issues with that, right? Like, I'm giving you my fingerprint so that I can prove who I am. And it's like, well, maybe it's not constitutional. I will get a thousand emails about this. Your hypervigilance must have been off the charts, right? He's saying things like be prepared for my arrival.

I'm coming for you. I'm around the corner. I can see you. So let me ask you, are you coming out of Arawan with your bougie smoothie after a yoga class? And like a random guy like me is behind you a few paces in the parking lot. Are you in the back of your mind thinking, like, is this the guy? First of all, you and I don't Airwan.

We do not air one. It's only for Insta Fluencers. And, yeah, like, it's so ridiculous. Who's buying a $25 a mood? I mean, you've got to be an idiot. I'm sorry. I know people do. I have friends that go to air one, but we don't air one.

Anyway, but yes, you're always looking, oh, my gosh, in a parking? Oh, yeah. Still, to this day, I mean, I'm, you know, I mean, not only as a woman do you in parking garages and places you are alone, are you hyper vigilant, but it really was like, and still is where I'm like, could it be anybody? You know, someone could recognize something. someone could, you know, you just, you never know, and I feel like, especially for you, that whole scene too in the dokey series when they're talking about, you know, you're going to

events still. Paparazzi's there. You're actively signing things to people while you're walking. You don't know if you're quite literally signing something and they're looking you down in the face and it's him. Yeah. Like, you don't know who it is. It could be anybody at any time.

And now they're this close. And now they could stab you or now they could shoot. You know, it's interesting because at the end, when people saw. the picture of him in the second episode. So many people said, were, were you relieved when you saw his photo and when you saw a video of him? And he's this, you know, big dude who's got a limp and is, you know, barely getting along. And they said, you must have been so relieved that he, you know, couldn't make good on all that. And I said, of course he could still make good. All he needs to have is a gun. Yeah. He doesn't have to run up on me to be able to, you know, incapacitate me just by shooting me in the

or whatever and I can't get away. I also feel like too, a lot of people started being like, oh, well, you must have been so less scared. Like, wait a lot. And I was like, I was like, oh, well, we didn't find him still for 12 years. So for 12 years, I did not know what he looked like. Like, I very much thought he was going to be a Ted Bundy type. I thought he was going to be, you know, athletic, handsome, blend in with the crowd well.

And he wasn't. I was like, that was a man, you notice in a crowd. Yeah, for all the wrong reasons. That is true. I will say, if I get a stalker, nobody who's not an eight or above, please. Yeah, right. I know.

I was like, like, Kai has romantic stuff. Like, I didn't remember me hot. Well, yeah. Well,

I was like, well, damn. Yeah. Spoiler, the guys across between Jabba the Hut and Archie Bunker.

Like, this is not a sexy guy. That's the perfect. Yeah. That's the perfect. He is the biggest, like, turd.

He's exactly who you would expect from somebody who has all day to write crazy letters to somebody they see on TV. He's, it's quite on the nose. Plus he has like what they always say, what they always describe as beady little eyes. You know, and I was always like, what are beady little eyes?

This dude actually has beady little eyes. It looks like he has no whites of his eyes. They're black all the way across like a demon. Like, it's really creepy. You are going to die a slow, painful death. When you hear about these amazing deals on the fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. Don't forget about a newsletter WebitWiser. It comes out every Wednesday.

It's a two-minute read. It's a letter. where I do not threaten to dismember you and cut you into little pieces or anything of the sort. In fact, it's practical advice that you can apply to your life right away. It's a great companion to the show and you don't have to call the FBI

once you start receiving this in your inbox. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Now, back to Ava LaRue and Kaya McKenna Callahan. The fear must have been seeping into Kaya as well, right? Because even though she was five when this started, you want nothing more than to protect your kids, but we had a recent break-in

and we were home when it happened, and I chased the guys kind of off the property and didn't follow them or anything. Oh my God. Was it more than one dude? It was three dudes, but they were like, I think they were just going to rob us. They thought we weren't home.

I went like polar bear and just like charged because I didn't, I couldn't see them. I just saw the glass break and the curtain blow inward from the wind and I felt the cold air at night and we don't have trees in the yard. So I was like, I know it's not a tree.

This is funny because this all happens in like half a second, right? I was like, something hit the window. It's broken. Was it a tree that doesn't make sense? We don't have trees. What could have fallen?

Nothing could have fallen. There's obviously a person out there. Or I'm overreacting, but I'm still going to go psycho and yell and scream in charge because if I'm wrong, it's mildly embarrassing and nobody's here but me. But if I'm right, I'm charging somebody's trying to break into my house and my kids were in the next room over sleeping and stuff. But anyway, the point of this story is that afterwards my daughter, who was three, was like, there's bad guys and I'm going to chase them away because.

because I'm a ninja and it's like you can't hide stuff from kids when it happens. They just know they get it. Of course, it didn't help that the cops came through the house with their guns and stuff, and she saw all of this, right? So she knew something was going on. And for months after that, even now she's still like, I don't like any bad guys. There's no bad guys allowed in my house.

You know, she's four. It's almost been like a year. It's stamped. It's imprinted. Yes, it's imprinted. Right, exactly. It's really kind of embedded. Yeah.

Because I was so young, and I feel like with your daughter, it's one of those things that you only, almost just grow up with it, you don't know when it starts. But the memory for me that really sticks out where I was like, oh, this is serious. And there's, you remember a feeling more than you remember words or an actual moment. And it was the moment when the news, I think it was ABC or CBS, had showed up at our doorstep after the whole gate gate incident. And they had come in and we were not only packing to move because obviously he had found our actual address, but then on top of it. And, you know, as a child, you're looking to your parents for guidance, being grounded,

and what their emotions are reflected. And so for me, I think that was a moment where I was like, oh, my mom is afraid. She can't hold her fear back from me anymore because it's at our doorstep. It is quite literally pounding on our door with a camera and lights as we're, like, shuffling and packing things up. And so for me, that was a moment where I was like, I need to be afraid because my mom is standing here so scared, shaking. like I don't know what to do. So yeah, it definitely seeped through a lot of all of my life. I don't know what before. And it's always interesting when people ask like, you know,

do you think you'll ever feel back to how you felt before, what life was like before? And I'm like, I don't know what my life was before being afraid and being paranoid and being aware. There is no before. There's only going to be an after. And I don't know what that looks like. That's sad and interesting as well. Because, right, you were so young. You mentioned earlier the psychologist thinks this person is, and I looked this up, it's called an a ronetist. which is a weird term for this person because there's nothing, nothing erotic about this guy. Nothing erotic about it.

Yeah. Kind of the opposite. But this is a disorder, a very weird disorder where the person believes that somebody, usually someone of higher social status, is deeply in love with them. And I actually had a buddy who had a stalker like this. He's a famous author. And this woman that he had dated just literally like decades ago when we first became friends, she was like, oh, we have to be together for this carmic reason or something.

like that. And he got married and I'm like, oh, surely she's leaving you alone now. And he's like, no, she wrote to my wife and was like, I'll share him with you. And it's like, well, share. It's like, no, you're not getting any piece of this. I haven't talked to you for 15 years. And so basically these people, I look this up, they connect dots that are just not there. Like you're wearing a blue ribbon in your hair during a media appearance. And the person is like, she did this for me because I love blue and she knows I like blue. And it's like, no, she doesn't know who you are. You freaking psychopath. And people do this occasionally.

I have a little diet version of this. People will say, hey, Jordan, I'll get a DM on Twitter and they'll be like, I know you're talking to me. And I'm like, yeah, I'm talking a lot of you. What's going on? And they're like, no, no, no. I know that that thing you said on that episode with Ava LaRue, when you said the blue ribbon thing, that's our code.

And I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, the CIA is watching both of us. And this is how you're talking to me. And I'm like, well, then why are you DMing me on Twitter, dude? Why don't we just talk on Twitter? You're just ruined it. Yeah. Let's just stick with this.

None of it adds up. And then a few weeks later, they're like, no, you're also in the CIA and you're trying to control my brain with your codes. And I'm like, and block, right? Because none of it makes any sense and they're schizophrenic or something like that or have some sort of other delusions. You know, this criminal psychologist was talking about, oh, Rodomania, bra, where? Why don't we talk about what he really has?

But I don't know if that's legal. I don't know if your therapist can come forward and be, well, but can't they? If you are a criminal, can't they say this person has been diagnosed schizophrenic, diagnosed sociopathic? Can they not because it's your therapist? But if you're a criminal, can't they? I don't think it's like your personal therapist. All they can be a lot of mania?

But it's probably like a professional can diagnose, but I don't know if it's like their personal therapist can break code too. Yeah, I mean, you could probably try to subpoena stuff like that. It would be very difficult because there is a confidentiality thing. But if they're threatening to murder someone, the therapist. has to report that. Now, he probably just didn't tell his therapist that those things were happening. Well, he tried to, he only had a therapist after he was caught. He was trying to, you know, plead that he was, you know, insanity. And they're like, yeah, no, you had a job. Like you said,

you were, you were functioning in the world. You were. You're unhinged, but you're hinged enough where you knew what you were doing. Yeah, you could still take care of some lovely old people. Lord knows what you were doing to them in the dark. I know. That freaks me out, too. Yeah, he worked at like an old folks home. And it's just like, imagine he's watching CSI in Miami with some 90-year-old. And he's like, okay, all right, Deborah, good night. And then he goes home and he's like writing this creepy letter to you. Like, it's just so weird to think about. No, but worse, here was where my mind went. I was because he was working in a memory care facility specifically. So what were these 80-year-old people who didn't have a memory? What was he then doing to them at night when no one's around? You know what I

mean, like, and they wouldn't be able to remember and or tell. Right. Oh, it's so creepy. You know, the whole thing is just beyond. Because if he's that depraved. Yeah. I mean, he might also be a total wimp in real life. And this is just like him sort of larping this. Well, who knows? So there are different phases of erotomania and the stalking part that goes with it. Phase one, they're super in love with you. Phase two, they start getting jealous or they start resenting you. Phase three, which is what it seemed like you just straight skip to is anger and rage. And this stuff is all reflected, or at least the latter phases are reflected in the letters. And it's like this rage that their love is unrequited.

And you started sleeping with a weapon under the bed. I'm wondering, what's your weapon of choice? A machete. No, I'm a dead serious. Yeah. Yeah. What? Really? Yeah. No dead serious. We have a machete. Oh, I thought you would have had like a firearm or something like that. Well, we did for a long time, like especially when I was married, we had so many firearms. We just locked those up, but we had machetes under the bed. Okay. Wow. Dang. That is, that's, okay. Did you train with it? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. I learned how to shoot a gun when I was eight. I shot my first shotgun in Montana, and we were doing skeet shooting, and then we went to the gun range, and I shot at Glock's. Yeah, I was eight.

And I learned to shoot on CSI, Miami, so they trained us, and then I used to go with my ex-husband. We used to go to the shooting range a lot. That's when he taught Kai how to shoot. And so, So we're pretty proficient because unfortunately the statistic is against women who have guns, who keep guns in their room under their bed. The majority of women are killed with their own firearm by an intruder. I see. They get disarmed. Yeah, they get disarmed. Or they hesitate to shoot or whatever.

Yeah. I mean, which makes sense. I wanted to make sure I was proficient. Yeah, same here. And I'm glad I am because I feel very comfortable holding a firearm safety. wise doing what, you know, it's heavy. I mean, when you really hold, like, when you hold a gun, a handgun in your hands, you're like, this is a lot heavier than you think. And that's, this is legit. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm grateful that I know how to safely use it. And here's the

thing. We're not, we're not even gun people. We're not even gun people. No, I get it. I mean, you kind of had to become gun people. We're not like card carrying NRA people or anything. Not that, you know, anybody who's watching. If you love it, you love it. I don't care. I don't care what you do. It just wasn't your hobby. Love what you want. of love. It's just not mine, you know. Tell me about Italy, because this was creepy as hell, on theme, creepy as hell. Yeah. So it was the last three months of that particular season for CSI. There isn't even a word beyond terrifying. The threat I felt like was coming from everywhere. And I know this is not like

all that relatable. Actors are a minuscule amount of people in the world that are stocked. Because there's like 13.5 million people just in the United States that. are stalked, men, women, and children. And actors are like this many of them. And I know this doesn't sound very relatable that I happen to have a friend who has a villa in Italy. But he said, you know what, as soon as the show goes on hiatus, come and stay for the three months of hiatus. Just come stay in Italy with me. And I thought, yeah, I don't know how to stay safe here. So I did. The day after filming for that year, we jumped on a plane and we went to, and we were not there 36 hours in Italy. Then we wake up in the middle of the night, you know, you've got jet lag and Kaya rolled over and she was like...

I remember it was the mosquitoes too that kept us up. There was like mosquitoes just buzzing in our ears. We were trying to hide under the pillows. We were exhausted. Yeah, we were exhausted. It was like 3 o'clock in the morning. And she was like, Mama, are you awake? And I said, I am. Let's try to go back to sleep. About 10 minutes later, our bedroom door opens up. And you know how when there's a light behind somebody in a darkened room, you can't see their face because they're in shadow because the lights behind them? So I couldn't see who it was, but it was obviously a man. And I said, Max, Max. I was trying to be quiet because Kaya was hopefully back asleep. And I was like, Max, Max. he didn't answer and he stood there for a few seconds and then he closed the door. So I thought, okay, well, Max is up too. I'm going to thank God. I got up and I went to the bathroom first, took a few minutes in the bathroom and then I thought I'll go out in the house and see if Max's up because we're obviously both up. I went out into the house and all the lights were on and I thought, well, that's kind of weird. And I walked around. I didn't see Max anywhere. I didn't

yell up the stairs, but I was like, Max, because his room and his mom's room were upstairs. nothing. So I went back to bed and the next morning, Max comes racing into our room and he says the house was broken into. Oh my God, they took the car. They took our jewelry off the bedside stands in my room in my mom's room and then in my room. We were completely robbed. Did you hear anything? Did you see anything? And I said, oh my God, he was in our room. He came right into our room last night. I thought it was you. And he goes, no, it wasn't me. I was asleep. So in that for me, I know that this is a jump, but because I had been doing nothing but praying for my life and my daughter's life for three months and praying for some sort of guidance and some kind of hope, in that moment said to me, it was God's answer to me, saying, if I want you dead, I will get you in any country, in any city, in any room, anywhere in the world. So relax, because this person came within 10 feet of me and my daughter. while we're laying in bed. So it's not that the fear went away, but I was able after that to compartmentalize it. That's interesting. It's like a turning point. Yeah, I suppose. And it wasn't the stalker. It was just a

random robbery, right? Right. But in that moment, we were like, oh my God, the stalker followed us here. I mean, completely irrational. Of course, you know, he didn't. But, you know, in that moment, just like you said, in a matter of seconds, you're like, the glass broke. Was it a tree? Was it a thing? You start to run through all the things and you're like, oh my God, the stocker actually came into our room. Did the police, did the Italian police impress you? Not in the tiniest. Yeah. No, except there are Armani suits.

They're Armani suits and they're all. Yeah, they were hot. Yeah. The cops there are hot. I love that you were pissed, but you were like, why aren't you taking fingerprints? Why aren't you doing food? Why aren't you doing it? Why aren't you doing it?

Why aren't you doing it? I was like, do I have to do this for you? Give me your tools. I can figure this out. They came in and they were touching everything. I was like, stop touching things. Stop picking things up. What are you doing?

You're contaminating the scene. Yeah. It's like, ma'am, our tools are unfiltered cigarettes. We're not doing it. Unfiltered cigarettes and an espresso. Can you give us a minute? Maybe we'll work by like two. Yeah, we're going to be back.

We're going to go on break. Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah, like I saw in the docu series, it was like, don't touch the crime scene. There's fingerprints on the windows. And they're like, look, we're just going to look around and contaminate the crap out of this and then leave and write something for your insurance company.

Yeah. It's, hey, man, reality comes crashing into your Hollywood image of what police are. So back to L.A., you build a fence around your house. It's six feet. And unfortunately, in Glendale, it can only be 5'8 or something like that. And you have to go before city council. And these geniuses give your address out on live television. How pissed were you?

Oh, my God. I don't know. Like, in the documentary, you can see my face. I had just said, I had a stucing. stack like this in a manila, I said, here are all the letters from my stalker. This is why I have a security gate and a security fence. I'm just trying to get a variance for the three inches that I am above the code right now. And I said, here are all the letters. You guys have copies of them, but I can give you these ones if you don't have them on you. I can give you these ones right here to

look at. I'm scared to death for my daughter, blah, blah, blah. I go through this whole thing, blah, blah, blah. The next thing they say is literally, okay, well, we need to state your name for the record. And I said, Eva LaRue, and they said, Eva LaRue at 1-1-4-9, blah, blah, blah, street in Guantan. I was like, oh, my God, it's on public TV. It's literally on the color from your face, I feel like, literally you went pale. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Unbelievable. Like, absolutely the dumbest, I mean, look, they probably run on autopilot, but like, hello, man, get a clue. Right. And I do think. it was just autopilot. I don't think it was malicious. God, I would hate to think it was

malicious. I think it's just what they do. Yeah, I think it was just, their job is boring as hell, and they were like, all right, here's what we do. But also, like, maybe pay attention for this one. Just so you know, like three of the idiots from that particular council went to jail. No, they did not. Yeah, there was skimming money, taking bribes for variances and taking bribes for this. Oh, yeah. Three of them went to jail. Oh, so we could have bribed them? You could have just bribed them. You didn't even have to go to the meeting. Would have been nice to sue for having to move. Oh, I didn't know we could have just done that.

At that point, you're not thinking about any of those things. Yeah. No, next time, just start with the bribe. Start with the bribe. So the paparazzi, of course, shows up the next day, and I assume you're thinking of great. Now, if they can find me, he can find me. Paparazzi are basically just stalkers with cameras

and a profit memo, right? We moved in three days. At this point, you're in this new relationship with this new fiancé. Did you feel guilty? You know, like he's getting the letters now. He started getting the letters. And they started out, dear Mr. Capucho, that's how they were addressed.

Dear Mr. Capucho, please pass this letter on to your wife who I would like to rape and kill and dismember and love Freddie Kruger. Yeah, it's not your fault, but I feel like I would have felt guilty. Like I would have still felt bad about that. I'm sure you did. Yes, I felt horrible about that and horrible for his employees that opened the letters at the office because now they're scared to death. that he's going to come to the office looking for Joe and find that. Like, you know, everybody's scared. Right.

Turk, my publicist, he has his address. He's, oh, my God, what am I supposed to do here? Everybody was afraid. And so, of course, he finds the house. He starts sending letters to the house addressed to you, Kaya. What year are we in of these letters coming, by the way, at this point? When they started coming to you, they started in 2007. When they started coming to you, it was around 2009.

I thought I was like a teen. Or I guess you just let no, you never knew. Yeah, you never knew. You know now. Right now. Yeah. Today. You are this many years old.

Yeah, today's old. Yeah. So you're in high school, Kaya, at that point, right? This must have been so stressful. You're already in, you're a teenager, you're in high school, and you're worried about, like, boys and exams. And it's like, oh, and my psycho stocker who might murder us. Yeah. I mean, even you referencing where it's like, do you feel guilty?

Do you feel bad? especially just for her husband at the time. It was a very similar feeling for me in the way that I would make friends, you know, starting a new middle school, starting a new high school, and trying to make friends and then always having the back of my mind being like, I have to let them know at some point. But I obviously don't want to start my conversation with, hi, I'm Kaya. I do cheer and let's be friends and I'm funny. And by the way, what comes with being friends with me is like, you might want to look over your shoulder a little bit because I have a stalker. Like, how do you enter a relationship at 16 like that?

And every relationship thereon, I mean, even now in dating, it's interesting because I am in a relationship and my boyfriend's dad had to say to him, or, you know, obviously this is all coming out at the same time. And he was like, well, do you feel safe? And, you know, what if he comes back? And what if he starts finding you? And it kind of freaked me out. I was like, oh, my God, yeah, it's such a burden to put on people because, you know, you know, it's. now you're scared by association. And, you know, you can't be public with people and friendships I had, you know,

in high school it's all about social media. And my friends were posting about each other and we were all tagging each other and tagging our high schools. And I always had to make it very clear with my friends. You cannot tag me. You cannot put your location. And I will not tag you. And I'm like, I don't mean to like, you know, obviously it's almost like a.

Yeah, you're not snubbing them. Yeah, exactly. Because at the time, yeah, as a teenager, you're like, oh, you're not going to tag me. but it's like I am doing this actually for your protection because with association and anything connecting me to you and digging deeper, like, you know, it's all connected. So yeah, that was always the back of my mind thought throughout high school. You were right to do that because he was looking at your, as you mentioned earlier, he was looking at your social media, leaving little emojis, and you're like, ah, random dude,

whatever. But it's like, nope, he was looking at who you were associating with and who you were friends with and what you were doing and, like, looked at all your photos. What is the cadence of the letters? Are you getting them every week? Are you getting them every month? Because it seems like it's not like a regular thing. No, there was no sort of regularity to it.

We would get a flurry of them. I would just assume that he went on a little psycho spin-out. And we would get them every day for a week. And then we wouldn't get them for three weeks. And then sometimes for a while there, when the show ended, when CSI ended, I thought, oh, thank God, like maybe he'll just be off of it. And for about six months, we were enjoying no letters at all. And then all of a sudden they started again, like, fast and furious.

This is so weird. It's like on his meds, off his meds kind of stuff. I don't think he was ever even on meds. Well, he told us when we were sitting in court in his pathetic speech to us, he said, oh, I wish that I'd had a therapist sooner because he had a court-appointed therapist now, and he was on court-appointed meds. And he said, and I wish I'd been on meds sooner because I don't think any of this would have happened. We're like, yeah, we wish both for you as well. But so there's, I think that's why he

would just go into weird spinouts. And then his mom told the FBI that he was a huge All My Children fan and he used to record it and then play episodes on repeat again and again and again and again, like obsessively. He was obsessed with all my children. So I think the obsession definitely happened from back when I was at all my children and then escalated. But that's the other thing that we found out since all of this happened is that of all the women that were murdered in the United States last year, 86% of them were stocked first. So we know that stalking escalates to rape and we know it escalates to murder. And that's why the laws around it are so ridiculous because if that's the statistic of escalation, the law needs to be you're not allowed to menace, period. I don't care

if you didn't break into their house or you didn't lay hands on them. If you are menace, someone, that needs to be against the law. Yeah, I mean, it's harassment, but that's, it doesn't reach the level of, like, what it is, right? It's also harassment if I call you names a bunch of times and you tell me to leave you alone, right? That's one thing, but when you are menacing somebody, like, I'm going to harm you. I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to lay hands on you. That's different than I'm going to sue you. You're a butthole, like all the things. Yeah. You know, like calling names and whatever is different than I am. am menacing. Yes, this is on a totally, totally different level. In fact, tell me about the

close call at school. Yeah, I mean, that's where it all dovetailed. Obviously, this is something 12 years, but you can't live with it at the forefront of your mind every day. So for me, I was just a normal day at high school, and I was at the cafeteria, and I get an overhead call being like Kai Kaya Kali and come to the front office. And I meet it. I'm like, oh, great, what did I do this time? I'm like, I'm like, I know I cheated on at least three tests in the last week. You know, it's finals week. Busted. And so I'm going to the front and they tell me, hey, you know, your dad called.

And I love my dad. But, you know, my dad lived in Palm Desert at the time. And he was two hours away. And so he was never like the first to contact ever. And so they didn't really know what he looked like or sounded like. So they were like, you know, go on your phone and you can stand right here, but, you know, contact your dad. And so I'm texting my dad and then I'm texting my mom. But they also said your dad said he's going to pick you up after school, stand out in front of the school, he's going to pick you up from school.

Yeah, but they were more like, they were kind of suspicious too. They were more like, just double check with him on your own. And so I'm texting you being like, hey, yeah, dad called the school saying he was going to pick me up. Have you heard from him? I mean, he would have called you first. I'm texting my dad. Hey, daddy, are you picking me up? And so she's like, no, I haven't even heard from him.

That's weird. Da, da, da. And I'm just kind of standing there. And the moment my dad texted me saying, no, I never called the school. I hadn't thought about the stalker in the forefront of my mind, but all of a sudden it was immediate where I was like, oh my God. Like the world just came at a close in. And I just was like, oh, my God, it's my stalker. It's my stalker.

And so I'm freaking out to the poor front office lady at my school. And she's like, go back to class. You're fine. Like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I was like, you need to call the FBI. You need to call my mom. We need to get the FBI on the phone right now. now. So my mom, you know, I had the chance to call my mom, and so she comes rushing over

and is coming to pick me up. But yeah, I mean, and then the FBI showed up and tapped the phones, and the next day or overnight, he had left 19 voice messages detailing basically everything he had said in the letters, but directly to my school so that the poor front office woman had to start her morning at 6 a.m., listening to those. And how he would kill any administrator or teacher or kid that got in the way, a student that got in the way between him here. The fact that he didn't get more time just for that, for threatening a school, is really pretty unjust. All right there, because apparently threatening to rape and murder someone and their kid

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you can't find the code. Email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're happy to surface codes for you. Or just show up at my house unannounced at 4 o'clock in the morning. Either way, we're more than happy to surface codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Ava LaRue and Kaya McKenna Callahan. He's threatening teachers, students, and someone in particular and administrators of the school, and he's going to kidnap somebody from a school and rape them and kill them and torture them. Like, that alone is... Three years seems okay. That's fine. Yeah, no, it's crazy. He gets, he ends up with such a light sentence. So the FBI gets back to you after a while here. The new agents of the guys who helped

catch the Golden State Killer, we had Paul Holes on the show, actually, is one of the guys who was involved in that. Yeah, I know Paul. He's a great guy. He's really good. Episode 725, that story is crazy, right? The genetic genealogy. Well, and here's the interesting truth about that story. Paul Holes had been on the case for like 20-something years and he was getting ready to retire. And the two FBI agent, well, specifically Steve Kramer, who had been a lawyer for the FBI, he was just fascinated with the Golden State Killer case, why it hadn't been solved. And so he called Paul Holes at one point after listening to Michelle McNamara's podcast and reading her articles on the Golden State Killer. And he called Paul Holes and he was like, hey, I'm with the FBI. I'm just a lawyer with the FBI, but how can I, like,

are there any tools that we have that we could help? I'm just fascinated. with why it hasn't been solved. So they kind of create this rag-tag team. It was Steve Kramer who created forensics genealogy. He was never allowed to take credit for it because he was with the FBI. And the FBI said to him, murder is not an FBI jurisdiction. Murder is local law enforcement jurisdiction. And it's only FBI jurisdiction if it's part of a RICO case or part of some other, you know, FBI jurisdiction sort of case. So the FBI said to Kramer, you know, you You've got to do this on your weekends. Don't be messing around doing this on FBI time. If you're doing this, this is a hobby for you. So to FBI, they did not ever get to take credit for it. Then the FBI, when the case got solved, Paul Holes, and one of the other guys from Colorado, I can't remember his name right now. They took all the credit for solving a case that he literally didn't solve for 25 years by himself, although he's a lovely guy and he did help do the stuff. It was Kramer who created the technology. And then when Kramer came back to Ann Bush at that point, Steve Bush, came back to the FBI and said, we think we created a brand new technology.

The FBI, God bless them, we're like, yeah, it's a one-off, it's not replicable. Sit still. So they kind of went behind their back, and our FBI agent at the time, Richard Alexander, had just gotten a promotion and was leaving our case behind. Somebody else was going to be taking it over. And they just happened to be chatting inside the FBI offices, and they said, look, we're looking for another DNA-heavy case. because we need to kind of quietly prove that this is a technology, like on our weekends, basically. And Richard said, please take this case. These are my girls that I've been trying to solve their case for 12 years, and I haven't been able to do it.

It would be amazing. Please take the girl's case. And so our case was the very next case that the guys took after Golden State. Our case proved that it was a replicable technology. And our case ended up being a precedent-setting case for the FBI. it was the first ever adjudicated case with forensics technology. So genealogy. Essentially, if they don't have the DNA match in the database, right, they have something, let's say, off of a postage stamp or off of a murder weapon,

they might not have anybody in the database, but they can go to, I don't know, 23 and me or something like that, a DNA site and go, is anybody here registered who would be a relative of this person? And so with the Golden State Killer, I'm going off memory here, but basically, Kramer and Paul Holes,

they found that this person's brother had registered. And they were like, oh, we found a DNA match for a brother or maybe it was a cousin or something like that. It was like a fifth cousin. Okay. Oh, it's really that far off. Okay. Because when they first started uploading the DNA from Golden State Killer into these other entities, Jedmatch and ancestry and all these things, there wasn't even enough DNA in those companies in the beginning to get a match at all. So they had to wait. It was almost like three years or four years that they kept uploading, waiting to get a match. And then they thought, finally ended up getting a match to a fifth cousin, and then they did the gum shoe, old-fashioned,

detective work, and basically knocked on doors. And they said they never had a problem knocking on doors saying, hi, FBI, you're related to a serial killer. Can you help us out? I mean, I would be like, oh, I bet I know who it is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, it's Uncle Tom, isn't it? Yeah, my second cousin, you know, killed that cat one time. I'd definitely bet it was him. Yeah. What a freak. Yeah, but of course, it makes sense because then you narrow it down from every human on earth or every male or whatever on earth to in Ohio to, oh, okay, it's somebody who is related to this person. There's a lot of those, but hmm.

Are they all men? No. We get down to the last 10 and then how many of them live in Ohio, then how many of them follow us on social media? And there was one. Yeah, there was one guy following you on social media. From that family branch. And the ID the guy, yes, he follows both of you on social media.

He was in Ohio with the letters for postmark so they knew that they had him. The classic out of shape white dude lives with his mom because, of course. I always felt like he lived in a basement, his mom's basement. You did always say he lived in his mom's basement. I was always like he lives in his mom's basement. It's very predictable. He didn't live in the basement, but, you know. And then they still have to match the DNA.

So they can't just say, okay, we have a high probability that on that family tree branch, of all the leaves on that branch, this is the only one who is a man, happens to be from Ohio, follows us, let's let's let's, still not enough. they have to stalk him and they have to wait for him to throw out something with his DNA on it and so he threw out an Arby's cup

and they got his DNA off the straw. That's amazing. I mean, that must have been these guys must have been pretty stoked, right? They're watching some idiot throw away a fast food bag and they're like, please don't be a waste of time and they get the DNA off the straw

and they're like, boom. Yeah. And I think they knew it wasn't a waste of time because they knew they had their guy but the crazy thing was they followed him, he pulls up to his house, he walks across the street and puts his Arby's trash bag, the bag of Arby's stuff, in a public dumpster across the street, which is weird. He didn't like take it into the house and throw it away. And when you went into the house, the guys who were there, it wasn't Steve Bush yet, were like, it was one of those ones where it's just got a shoot, like a big huge public trash can with just a trash shoot. And the rest of the thing is locked down. And they're like, oh, God, now we got to like go call the scene.

We got a dumpster dive. We got to do, like, l. And so he tells the story about how he was like, well, let me just go see. So he goes over and he opens up the little shoot. And he said, thankfully, somebody had thrown out some blinds. And the blinds were sticking up inside the shoot. And so the bag of Arby's was hanging on the blinds halfway up the shoot. So all they had to do was like reach it and grab it.

And then they ran it for DNA. Yeah. That's amazing because that's one of those. things where you feel like you could almost, like, oh, we called the city, but between when the guy arrived, the empty the dumpster and it went to the landfill and we couldn't get it and then did it, like what, and then the guy saw us and he got freaked out and he went to ground for a year and a half. Like, it's just, it could have gone totally different. And this was scary. There was a scary moment in the documentary where this FBI agent says, once people are no longer afraid of

being caught, that's when they're the most reckless and when victims are the most at risk. And they thought kind of he was getting to that point, right? Because he was like, I'm coming for you. I'm calling to school now. Like, I'm clearly just not worried. He was excited. 19 messages overnight in one night. Yeah, he's manic. Yeah, because then you have a real location in the same way, you know, like it's not just L.A. anymore. It's I know where she's going to be every single day, all day. Yeah, and that was, that was terrifying. I mean, I didn't go back to, thank God it all timed out, right? Because I think I was only out of school for like three days. But when I look back, I was like, I would have had to switch school.

schools, in all honesty. I would have, you know, obviously COVID happened, I think a few months later. But I'm like, I wouldn't have been able to go back to school. I would have had to switch. I would have had to completely change so many things about my life once again just to be safe. And thankfully, I think it was, yeah, three days later. And they were like, we've got him. We're not going to rest him yet. We're waiting on the DNA. But we've got eyes on him. Like, you are good. Yeah, that was so relieving to be like, oh, my God, like the first time in my whole life to feel like I could be safe in that. I was safe to go to school. And of course, as you predicted, he lives in his mother's basement, essentially, right?

His mom has no idea, but says, oh, we always watch Davis shows over and over and over again. Creepy. Weird. A. F. Yeah. The creepiest fact for me is when they went in and they were checking his phone. And the only two numbers programmed into his phone were his work and my high school. Yes.

I wrote that down. The FBI goes in. They're raiding this guy's house, right? And he first of all, he has every photo of you from every photo of you from every school. public appearance that you've ever done on hard drives and laptops or whatever. And yet, there's a cell phone with two contacts in it, one his mom and the other your high school, not work, not relatives, not neighbors, just his mom and your high school. So weird. So weird. So creepy. Like I can't even imagine had this gone on longer how many more times he would have called the school,

how much more he would have done. I mean, when I went back to school, I felt really bad for the the front office woman that was working there because not that I yelled at her that day, but I was like panicking. And she very much was like, go back to class. Like I don't, I think she kind of thought I was trying to like get out of school early. She even said to me as when I called the school and I said, I'm coming to pick her up. And she's like, well, do you have a doctor's note? And I was like, lady, if you get in the way, you're picking up my kid, I'll run you over. Like literally, you won't be worrying about the stalker. You're worrying about me. But when I went back and I checked in for some reason and she like looked at me and like almost

took my hand and was like, I am so sorry. And I was like, for what? And she was like, I heard the messages. Like, you know, I'm the one who answered. And she was like, I just can't even imagine and I'm so sorry. I didn't take it seriously. And I just was like, oh my God. Like it was one of the first times I realized, not that it was going to be public, but where I was like, oh my God, other people are knowing without me being the one to sit them down and tell them. And this is like, I felt really guilty and like that burden to share that, you know, it's almost, you almost feel ashamed, which is weird because it's not our fault. It's not my fault.

But at the same time, you feel so ashamed to have this. You're sharing a bird. Yeah. And sharing a fear, because at some point you get to the point where you're like, well, I can handle it. Not like that, but when you tell people that you feel afraid, the other person is not feeling afraid with you. They're sad for you.

They don't really feel the visceral feeling of fear. But when somebody listens to a message that's aimed at them, I'll kill any administrator or teacher or student. Suddenly, Suddenly, the fear is embodied. Now you're one of the people that's being targeted, and now you're like, oh my God. Like, then it becomes super real. Not that nobody cares when we tell them, but it's like you're crying wolf. You know, how many times can you say, I'm scared? I'm still scared, you know? It's 12 years. Yeah, how are you doing? It's like when someone has cancer and you don't want to bring up to the person, you know, how's your cancer doing? But you're also kind of waiting for them to tell you, but then you don't also want to bring into a conversation. when you're having a good day with somebody being like, oh, yeah, my cancer is da-da-da-da-da.

It's still here. Still cancer. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like this conversation you don't ever really want to have. You don't want to make a bad day worse and you don't want to make a good day bad. So you just kind of don't talk about it. How did you feel when you heard he'd finally been arrested?

Relief and disbelief, I guess. Because after 12 years, I just, I had stopped hoping that he'd ever be caught. It was very surreal. The whole thing was, And the timing was so surreal that he had just found your school. And the story was so crazy. And then to top it all off, the poor woman in the administration office, the school or the admittance office or whatever, she was like, well, when does FBI agent Steve Bush come back?

Because he's hot. Yeah. My school loves Steve Bush. They love themselves. They'd say their husband. They literally would be like, our husband. Our FBI husband. Yeah.

But it was like a whirlwind of emotions. I mean, there was a TV show, but we weren't on the TV show. It was really crazy. What was it like seeing this guy face to face in court, so to speak? I mean, actually, I know you did it remotely because what was the reason for that? They didn't want to give him the... We did it remotely, but we had to lobby for that. Oh. Because they were trying to fly him out to L.A.

They were trying to fly him to L.A. to be in the courtroom with us. He'd never been in proximity to us. And we're like, we don't want to suddenly be in proximity. Can you have, like, a tiny bit of sympathy for the victims? Like, hello. And so finally, like three days before, they told us, okay, we're going to have him via Zoom. But yeah, we had to beg our U.S. attorneys who had our case to... Yeah, it'll be for him.

Gosh, that's crazy. I mean, at least they caved on that because, I mean, yeah, he would love nothing more than to be in a room with you guys after all this. And we said, if you guys bring him out, we won't be in person. We'll be Zoom because it doesn't make sense. You're going to give him a free trip to L.A. And then what? Leave him here? Then what happens?

I don't know. What's it like giving a victim impact statement? What goes into those, first of all? I don't even really know what those are. You weren't even going to give one. I wasn't going to give one at all. I mean, you sat and wrote yours prior, which was just kind of detailing, more just detailing everything you've been through, everything you felt and really laying it all out.

To give the judge an idea of hopefully you're trying to influence sentencing at that point. And I don't even really remember what I said other than, yeah, just laying it all out and what it had meant for us and how many times we moved and how it deeply affected us, I guess, in our daily lives. Yeah. Just, yeah. How will be affected forever. And then he gave his statement. Well, he gave his first.

He gave his statement first. I mean, I wasn't going to speak. I was very adamant about not wanting to stand up and speak at all. But he had gone first, and one of the things he said was, I hope you can let this go. I hope you can just forget the last 12 years, everything that's happened, because now I'm on meds and now I'm in there. and now I feel bad. I hope you can let this go and move on with your life. And in that moment, I looked at my mom and I was like, I'm going up first.

I was like, not only am I going to speak, I'm going up first because I was, I just was like, I was like, this is insane. What do you mean to let this go? And I felt compelled where I was like, the judge needs to know. I would love to let this go. But I actually can't because ABC, D, EFG, the entire alphabet. Well, it's rewired your brain completely. Yeah.

We will never not be hypervigilant. How do you go back after 12 years? And he's out. Yeah, he's out now. So how do we just go, oh, he's fine now. I'm sure he's totally sane because people go from insane to sane. Right, he gets three years

and then three years of probation, which is crazy to me. I mean, three years is, it's a long time for a bunch of traffic violations or a bag of weed, but it's nothing for somebody who spent a dozen years threatening to kill you

in the most brutal way as possible and your daughter. It just doesn't make any sense. sense. What do you think he should have gotten, in your opinion? The max he could have gotten was seven in this case, and I think he should have gotten three and a half for her and three and half for me. And the thing is, I mean, maybe he would have gotten more if Joe, my ex-husband, had been part of the case, but his letters had a statute of limitation on them. It had already been seven years since he had gotten letters. So he could not be part of the case. But there

was also people that did not step forward. There's another girl from another soap opera, from One Life to Live. And I won't say her name, because. it's her story and not my story, but her mom called me at one point and said, my daughter is getting these letters. He references you in the letters and says, if you don't believe me and what I'm going to do to you, just ask Eva LaRue, and they were signed Freddie Kruger. So I don't know how long she was getting the letters. I never heard from them about it again. And when the FBI reached out to her, she wouldn't respond. So I think probably what happened was he was off of her. You don't ever want to do anything to reignite their obsession with you.

So that's probably why she didn't come forward again. I'm just guessing that he stopped writing her at some point. Yeah, that makes sense. Gosh, it's scary because restraining orders and things like that are just paper, right? And this guy's out of prison. I think you're lucky that he's kind of older and not physically able. But like you said, he just needs a weapon, right? It's scary.

Man, I'm glad you guys are okay. How often do you think about this, aside from doing promo for the docu-series? every day, right? I try not to think about it every day. Well, I don't blame me for that. It definitely comes up, you know, for me. I feel like at least twice a week for me. Yeah.

And at night, you know, at night, you're always, you know, when the house is quiet and you're always... I think it's just intertwined with everything, you know, like there's almost no separation where you're specifically being like, oh my God, remember I had a stalker today? it's just in every way you... It's how you move through the world. It's how you move, yeah. It's how you move. Everything's intertwined with it and the fear and the paranoia

and, you know, the fear or two of the fact that this was one man. It doesn't mean it won't happen again. I mean, how are you feeling now that this happened to you, somebody broke into your house? Like, there's no way you're not thinking about this every night now.

Yeah. Like that they might come back, every sound, I'm sure. I don't think about it that much surprisingly. We made some changes to our security system. I should probably bounce those ideas off you. You probably have a fire alarm system. Like we have like new lighting and new sensors and new locks everywhere and stuff like that. And I've got some other surprises should they get further than that.

Oh, home alone. Yeah, a little home. Yes, I have little toy cars with nails sticking out. I have a pet tarantula I'm going to put on their face with it. I don't think about it every day, but you know what my wife does. And I know my kids do, I don't know if it's every day. I know they think about it a lot because again 10 11 whatever we're at almost 12 months 11 months later my daughter will be like I'll be like what are you drawing she'll be like oh it's a sign this is no bad guys and I'm like uh these freaking guys yeah so it's sort of in the back of her head somewhere and then my son will be like hey dad and I'll be like what and he'll go do bad guys are they just like everywhere in the dark and I'm like no they're not and he's like okay you know it's just sort so that that actually is

the thing that pissed me off the most. My feeling of like having being a little bit violated my home, you know, the glass broken, the property damage dealing with that. That was like, that's like not even making the top 10 list of things that upset me about this. It's my family being upset about it. Or my wife going, I always set the alarm when we go somewhere. And I'm like, we're going across the street. And she's like, I don't care, you know. And she's right. But it's also like, oh, I kind of miss the days where she was like, oh, I didn't set the alarm. Ah, it's fine. We're only gone for the weekend. Yeah. My brother's home. That kind of stuff. No, you're hyper-vigilant forever. When your brain is traumatized like that and your brain is shocked like that, I don't know if you can ever not

have that vigilance. You know what I mean? It's tough. I mean, maybe it fades with time or something like that. I guess we'll see. I'm sure it fades with time. And I don't know for us, as long as this guy is alive, I don't know that it'll really be able to fade for us. What's something you can never do anymore and something that you always have to do now. I mean, now I feel like we've really kind of taken back everything. We kind of... I feel like I can never... I mean, I have like a travel content Instagram,

and so I feel like I can never post my exact location about things. I always post for safety. I was in London a week ago now, and I'm just posting about it. I do that. Yeah, I don't post in real time. Yeah, I feel like I can never post in real time. And a lot of my friends do, because who cares? And I can't.

And then what would I like to do? Was that that? What's something you always have to do now? Or you feel like you always have to do now? Like with me, with the alarm system. Yeah, it's definitely our security system. I feel like I always have to, if someone's following me for too long, you know, like you happen to be going the same way, I always make four lefts just to make sure they're not following.

Yeah. Or I'll pass my house or I'll, you know, I'll do it. Because no one's making four left turns that isn't following you. Right, exactly. Yeah, unless they're lost. And we know where all of the police stations are. Yeah, in my area. Yeah.

Jeez. And on the way to wherever we need to be going, like, wherever, you know, the work is. What freaks me out is that, like, guys like this just exist, and they're, like, working at Chipotle. Right. Yes. They live next door to you. They're, like, here. They're right around you.

Yeah. Like, oh, the guy who lives with his mom and he's kind of a weird guy. but he's so nice. He cuts the lawn and he brings flowers for her on Thanksgiving. Oh, and he threatened to rape and murder this couple that lives five states away that he watches on TV. What? Yeah. I mean, even the Golden State killer, he's got two daughters.

One of them's a doctor. She went to Stanford. He was like a soccer dad. Yeah. It's like a normal dude that people, you know, he's bringing oranges to the soccer games for the kids. You know, it's his week, but he's killed 43 people. It's so crazy. And in, like, brutal ways.

I remember researching that. It was like he would put like plates on the guy. He would like humiliate the guy by putting plate, like making him watch the whole thing. It was crazy. Gross. True monsters, really. True monsters. And you dodged yours.

Well, thank you. Again, I'm so glad you're both okay. Thank you. It was so great talking to you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on and braving L.A. traffic. You're brave in so many ways, ladies.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. You're such a great interviewer too. Yeah, that was amazing. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Nice to meet you guys. Take care and stay travel.

So good to meet you. You're about to hear a preview from Joe Loya, a man who robbed 30 banks across California, but says the real crime scene was his childhood, where his Pentecostal preacher father beat him over 100 times before he turned 15. For 14 months, I robbed 30 banks, sometimes several in one day. I lost all sense that my life was going to be long at all. I just wanted to grab the loot and get the hell out of dodge as fast as possible.

and go spend it and have fun. That was my ethos. And so I did. Because all the crimes I did and all the violence I did. And starting with my dad, when my mother died, we received a lot of love from her and everything like that. It's just too much for him. And when he gets angry now, he gets brutal.

Like, he may have socked me. He may have choked me. He may have done all those things. Bebe with a bat. He wants us dead. He's using the dead language. He could kill us or I could kill myself. But this is like, it's just a tough time for me to try and process the grief

myself and beyond being brutalized, I don't believe I have a future. So there's nothing inside of me like, oh, I got to protect my future. I better get a job. I start, better start saving money for the future. None of that. Because of trauma is so intense, you're only looking at surviving the next day in front of you. In fact, I'm not made for society. They have all these morality, but they're too timid for me. I've seen past the curtain. Like I become in my heart, like the little sociopath looking at like, you guys are falling for the oky-doke. And I'm not the guy who falls for the ok-doke. I'm the guy who stabs the ok-doke and says, get the hell out of my way.

I'm not buying it, right? Once upon a time, Joe lawyer couldn't handle his emotional shit. And so now I'm a criminal. I'm a bad guy. In this episode, Joe unpacks the unsettling rapture he felt in the middle of a robbery and the exact moment seven years in solitary forced him to confront what he'd been running from his whole life. And the turning point that finally redirected everything, it's not what you'd expect. Check out episodes 1264 and 1265 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Well, I have to say, I am genuinely relieved that these women are both okay. Wow. What really stuck with me isn't just the fear. It's what never goes back to normal. The things you can't do anymore, the things you always have to do now. The fact that even after an arrest, after prison, after restraining orders, there's still that quiet awareness in the background, maybe not so quiet, that a piece of paper doesn't really stop anyone. This story is horrifying, but it's also a rare look at how these cases actually work, how slow they are, how messy they are, and how much of the burden falls on the victims just to stay alive.

Ava, Kaya, thank you for trusting me with this and for sharing something so personal and so unsettling here on the show, and I feel like we had fun doing it if we can say that. And if you haven't watched the documentary yet, prepare yourself, go and do that. Links and resources, of course, in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show. all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, once again, we bit wiser.

Very practical. We'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, psychology, relationships in under two minutes every Wednesday. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about our six-minute networking course as well over at six-minute networking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

In this show, it's created an association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tituselouskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who is interested in sort of true crime-ish or scary stories like this, definitely share it with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

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