The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1287: Conscience Frayed by Impossible Choice Made | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

Genetic test results were delayed, so you took the abortion pill — then learned the baby was healthy. Now faith and regret collide. It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1287On This Week's Feedback Friday:You're 38, happily married, financially stable — and just terminated a pregnancy before learning the genetic test results came back perfectly healthy. Now you're drowning in guilt, questioning your faith, and wondering if you can ever try again. What does forgiveness look like from here?Your 19-year-old son is a bona fide genius — perfect test scores, weather balloons launched to the stratosphere, obscure research papers devoured for fun — yet college rejected him and social isolation consumes him. How do you help a brilliant mind find its place in a system that doesn't see him?Your IT branch just got sold to new owners who couldn't care less about your team's culture or your loyal clients. Morale is tanking, policies are clashing, and you're wondering: what if you and your colleagues bought the branch and ran it yourselves? Is this bold move worth the risk?Recommendation of the Week: Libby — the free library app that lets you borrow ebooks and audiobooks with just a library card. It syncs with Kindle, works worldwide, and has slashed Gabe's book budget to nearly zero. Your wallet — and your local library — will thank you.You moved across the country to be closer to your dad's side of the family, only to spend years feeling like an afterthought. Now your stepmother throws tantrums, your brothers won't speak to you, and "family meetings" just mean apologizing endlessly. How do you escape this impossible cycle?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: Hiya: 50% off first order: hiyahealth.com/jordanCookUnity: 50% off first week: cookunity.com/jordan or code JORDANBombas: Go to bombas.com/jordan to get 20% off your first orderAudible: Visit audible.com/jhs or text JHS to 500-500Homes.com: Find your home: homes.comThe President's Daily Brief: Listen here or wherever you find fine podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer. The Straight Razor helping me shave this bushy beard of life drama with this little irritation in ingrown hair as possible, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Economic hitmen, gold smugglers, Russian spies, hostage negotiators.

This week, we had my friend Derek Coburn about the financial aspect of retirement, which sounds boring, I know, but was actually quite an enlightening and super important practical conversation about how we can best take care of ourselves as we age, so we don't end up working until we die. And we also had a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on passport bros. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play silly soundbites that probably won't land us in a copyright lawsuit. and compare Gabe to bespoke personal grooming tools.

We do do that. You, of course, are a manscaping clipper. I hope you know that. Yes, that's right. Purchased using one of our sponsor codes, of course. I'm that one that you have lying around somewhere in a drawer, tidies up the nether regions, sometimes leaves a little brazen, little nick, but always gets the job done.

Gross, but accurate. As always, we've got some fun ones and some doozies. Let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 38, and I have a very fulfilling career and a very fulfilling marriage. We're both professionals and both educated, and as soon as we had our children, two of them, we set up savings account for each of them, a general trust fund and a college fund. So we are absolutely in a position to welcome more children.

Meanwhile, all of my siblings have special needs children. My brother has a special needs son whose needs are so great that he lives in a special home with round-the-clock staff to care for him. My sister has three special needs children, one with autism and two with cognitive delays. my cousin's children also have different disabilities. Wow, that is very intense. That's a lot of special needs in one family, no? Definitely, yeah.

I wonder how that happened. I mean, is that genetic? Is it just random luck? I mean, is it just come down to chance? I don't know. I accept them, and I do not doubt my siblings' genuine love for them. But witnessing the effort that goes into caring for high-kneed children looks very distressing. Yeah, I can imagine.

The doctors told me that due to my advanced maternal age, I'm at greater risk for abnormality. and complications, that pregnancy is a young woman's game, and I agree. So when I recently became pregnant again, I did genetic screening to ensure the testable disorders could be screened out. Unfortunately, the company told me there was a delay in getting the results. By the time the results would be ready, I would be past the allowable time frame for abortion. I took the abortion pill, and only hours later I received the results, perfectly healthy, with absolutely no risk. Jeez, God, that's brutal. I am so sorry. I now feel unbearable guilt and anger at myself.

I tried to get some kind of antidote or reversal, and then I begged God and prayed for my baby to make it. I did not get any antidote, as there was no evidence to suggest anything that might help, according to the doctor I saw in the emergency room. Wow, what a scene that must have been. She went to the ER, regretting it, begging them to find a way to reverse.

That's so intense. Yeah. I tried taking progesterone. but it was too late. I prayed for Jesus to forgive me and to tell my baby I loved him and for forgiveness for my child. This experience weighs heavily on my mind and my heart. I'm racked with guilt and regret and so upset I didn't just wait for the perfect results. I'm still praying to Jesus every day for forgiveness for my mortal mistake. And I want the message to go out about how we need to help women recognize the gift of life. Huh. Interesting. Well, I hear you that you're very passionate about that.

Let's try and focus on the advice, and we'll see about the message. I'm so upset with myself for delaying beginning my family. But I just know that I want a healthy child and body and mind with a comparable intellect to my husband and me. As a Christian, this is something I'm struggling with. It feels blasphemous to even think of such things. And I can't discuss it with my inner circle or my community as this subject is considered taboo. I still believe in Christ.

I love my faith. And these thoughts and recent event are really affecting me. Do you think I should try again, forego genetic testing and just be okay with whatever the outcome is? Or do you think I should do genetic testing again to rule out abnormalities? Signed, coming undone, and wrestling a ton after tragically jumping the gun. Wow, what a letter. Gabe you tried to get us a ton of hate mail or what's going on here? I thought we would guide the dews crews right into choppy waters from the jump, you know?

Yeah, this is a Category 5 hurricane, but okay. Yeah, a moral maelstrom, I would say. Yes. So once again, I'm very sorry things played out this way. This is obviously unfortunate and super sad. I can hear how heavily it's weighing on you. To have terminated a pregnancy, you didn't need to terminate because you didn't have the information you needed in time.

That is super upsetting. There's no way around it. I can also see that it's causing a lot of tension with your religious beliefs, your community. That's a whole other layer of pain, and I'm just sorry for all of it. I understand totally why you freaked out here. It's very clear that watching your siblings raise multiple,

special needs children has been hugely impactful for you. Like you said, it's very distressing. It's not that their kids aren't remarkable in their own way. It's that your siblings aren't up to the challenge. It's just objectively a lot to handle. Any parent of a special needs child will tell you that. Yeah. And if there's a higher incidence of disorders in your family, then of course you would want to know that in advance. Of course, both for your and your husband's sake and for the sake of any potential child born with a serious disability. Me personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that? I mean, there's a reason that they do genetic screening in the first place. I recognize other people do have a problem with that. Some people forego these tests altogether because they would

never terminate a pregnancy, even if the child had a serious disability. That's up to them. I think that raises some very big moral questions, but it's fine. It's their choice. I just want to be open about my biases here. Now, I hate that the results were delayed. I can't, how does that happen? How did that happen? I've never heard of that happening. Same. I mean, it's not something I'd normally pay attention to, but it seems just obviously unconscionable to me. Like people's lives and futures hang in the balance and you're just going to fumble the results, LabCorp or whatever. Come on, Kaiser Permanente.

Sorry, we can't tell you if your child is going to have to live in a special facility with round-the-clock care because, well, Phil got a gnarly cold last week and he's a little bit behind on processing those samples. How is this okay at all? And how does this happen? I like the idea that there's just one guy at LabCorp responsible for like all the amniocentesis. tests in their state. We'll totally get to the results that will determine the quality of the rest of you and your child's life. But yeah, we got it's got to be on Monday, man. I came in a little bit late.

Next week is better for us. Yeah, just you know, it's just over, hit the alarm. I overslept a little bit, hits the traffic. I mean, it's just crazy to me that this can happen. And that's really what kicked off this chain of events. It's a big reason you're in this position now. And I'm angry about that. It sucks. But the fact that you panicked that you made this call with incomplete information, hoping to avoid something you felt would be much more difficult, I totally appreciate why you did that. I'm guessing your logic was basically, look, I might be wrong about this.

I don't have all the information in the time frame I need it, but if I'm right, if this baby does turn out to have a serious disability, then I'd rather roll the dice. That's not how these decisions should be made, of course, but that's how this situation played out. So to then discover that the fetus was fine, it's just tragic and super upsetting for sure.

But to then punish yourself for making that decision, after the fact, I'm not so sure that that's fair. Yeah, I'm with you on that, or even entirely accurate and honest. What I mean is, you're the same person you were when you made that call. I understand that somebody can come to regret something they did, of course, but to make a call like that, precisely because you don't have the information, and then turn around and berate yourself and feel like you've mortally sinned or whatever, when you do have the information now, I'm not sure that's actually a fair thing to do. Yeah, that's a really good point. She's holding herself to a

standard now that she couldn't have held herself to back then. Exactly. So not only did making this decision, and again, I think it was an understandable decision, if not in a totally legitimate one, not only did that mean agreeing to live with the consequences, including the feelings that might arise if she got the results and they turned out to be okay, it also meant not judging herself as if she had access to that information at both points in time. Yeah, well put. It's basically moral time traveling. Yes, moral time traveling. That's what it is. wasn't dealing with facts at the time. She was dealing with probabilities. Those are two very different

equations. An interesting thought experiment would be if the results had come back saying there was a problem, would you be beating yourself up for this? And I'm guessing not at all. It's only because they came back normal. So that should tell you that you can't be making this moral judgment based on the actual results, but on the statistics and the larger principle of not wanting to bring a child with severe challenges into the world. Now, whether that is, in fact, the right choice, that's a separate matter. It's maybe a little bit of a crap analogy, Gabriel, but it reminds me of Annie Duke. There's an episode where Annie Duke, the poker player, talks about making decisions. You're not supposed to do this thing called resulting, and it's where you go, I did all this crazy stuff

and played really wrong, but then I won the hand, so it must have been the right process. And you don't do the reverse either. You don't go, oh, I lost the hand, but I did. everything right according to math, so I did something wrong. It's like, no, you did everything right and then luck wasn't on your side in the hand. The process is more important because if you tell yourself that every time you win, you did the right thing, you're just going to be doing random, bad, illogical things all the time in poker and not win as much. That's just not how, you don't make decisions based on the results because there's an element that you can't control. And the inverse is equally true. That's really interesting. That is a really interesting analogy.

Whether this whole thing was in fact the right choice is a separate matter, like I said, honestly, I don't know if it's my place to tell you that. I can imagine good arguments on both sides. But also, I can't help but notice. That's not what you're writing in about. Well, that's kind of interesting too. She's asking, should I try again and do the test or should I not do the test? But the real question to me is, is this guilt, is this regret fully warranted? And what do they say about my true beliefs here and how those beliefs square with my stated beliefs? That's right. I feel like that tension is what she's really wrestling with. More than the question of, you know, should I do an amniocentesis? That's a harder question to answer. Like you said, we have our own beliefs, our own biases. She has hers. She's allowed to hold whatever values and positions she holds. I don't think we're really interested in convincing her of our point of view exactly. Nah, not especially, although I have some questions.

Other than, you know, making room for different perspectives and feelings at the same time. I think the most important part of her letter is when she said that she wants a healthy child, she wants a child who operates at the level that she and her husband do. however you feel about special needs children, I think that's a fair thing to want. I agree, both for themselves and for the child. I think that's important to remember. Right. This isn't entirely selfish children with special needs. I mean, it depends clearly on the particular needs and the family you're born into and all of that, but they objectively have a harder go of it than typical kids. So again, not a crazy thing to want, but that seems to be coming up against the positions of

her faith, or at least how she understands them and subscribes to them. Blasphemous, she called. it quite a word. So I'm sure that speaks to how powerful a lot of the ideas of a religion are and perhaps how non-negotiable they are or they are to her. So to be extremely logical about this for a moment, once you run into this tension, there are only a couple moves, right? Either she did do something wrong and her beliefs are right and she violated some moral principle she needs to repent and all the guilt and the remorse are appropriate. Although my understanding, and I am not an expert, but my understanding is that Christianity, like most religions, also has a way of working through all of that. There's forgiveness. There's repentance. There's coming to a new understanding. So there's

that. Or option two, she didn't do something wrong or what she did falls into perhaps a gray area where it doesn't neatly fall into right or wrong. And by the way, that might be part of what is creating her anxiety because it is ambiguous. Maybe that's the case and she needs to revisit some of her beliefs and assumptions. Either her faith is correct or her faith isn't correct. It sounds to me like she's saying my faith is correct and I did something terrible, which, again, she's allowed to hold that view. My perspective, though, is more, it's really unfortunate that you had to make that call without the information you needed. But like Jordan, I understand your reasons, given your family. And you might get further trying to appreciate your reasons for doing what you did at the time than judging and berating yourself after the fact.

I hear that. But to be fair, you're shifting the question to some degree. I recognize that. She might say, well, I didn't realize that terminating the pregnancy was wrong no matter what. so my reasons really don't matter. But I guess what I'm getting at is, is deciding whether this was ethical by reference only to her religion, is that also short-circuiting a really important process, which is making room for a mother, her, who didn't want to bring a child with severe challenges into this world and panicked and made a call that made sense to her at the time. My sense

is probably, yes, that is going on. It's not that her faith is irrelevant. No. But she's centering what her faith would say and it's kind of eclipsing what she was dealing with, which maybe that's what her faith would tell her to do. But I'm with you. I think we lose something crucial in that process. I also find it really interesting that she can't discuss this or she doesn't feel she can discuss this with her close friends, with people in her community. Right. It's taboo, which sort of seems to code for they'll judge me and my reputation will suffer if we talk about this. I don't know. That's sad. She even said that it feels off limits to even think about it. Because the moment there are things that are off limits just to talk about, let alone think about. I don't know,

man. I just, I find that suspect and a little concerning. Yeah, I mean, you're censoring yourself. You can't even think about this thing that was a private choice. I mean, that, Gabriel, I'm not religious and I'm not saying all religions do this, but it sort of reminds me of North Korea, like asking people things, and they were just like, I don't even think about traveling because it's not allowed and it's never going to happen, so I don't think about it. And it's like, okay, but what if you could go anywhere? And they're just like, Mount Pectu, where I can And it's like, no, no, no, really. And then I remember saying, like, what about Africa?

And you could see the animals. And she just went, Africa. And just, like, stared off into the distance. And this really, like, it just never occurred to her to think that you could leave North Korea to, like, do anything ever. Look, our friend here is writing in to us. And she is being very open about this. So clearly she is allowing herself to talk and process some of this, which I'm very happy about.

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying that, you know, anything goes and there's no morality whatsoever and terminating the pregnancy didn't matter. It matters. But if you can't talk to your own community about something really difficult, something very human and also something your system is hopefully designed to help you make sense of, then what does that say about the system? Yeah, it's a really fair question. And look, to be fair, we don't know if that's what her community actually feels or if that's what she assumes about them. She might be so scared and ashamed. She's assuming they'd find it taboo, but I also get the sense that she belongs to a pretty orthodox community. and we all know orthodoxy doesn't always allow for truly open conversation.

Yeah, something else I would explore. Again, zero shade on your faith or your community, but here is one value that I would explicitly encourage you to embrace, being able to acknowledge difficult, morally complex stuff without the fear of judgment. We deserve that. Agreed. So here, too, there's an interesting tension, not just between her private beliefs and her religious beliefs, but between her needs and the values or perceived values of her community.

Yeah. navigating those tensions and trying to understand them and being open to a new relationship with all of it, that's what I think this letter is actually about. And maybe the real question, dare I say the real opportunity that this difficult experience might have brought into our life. But to be practical here, we can't tell you whether to try for a baby again, whether to do the testing and be okay with whatever happens, or do the testing and consider terminating if there were any abnormalities. I think you could tell what I would do. I believe testing exists for a very good reason.

that's obviously up to you and your husband. It will shock no one to say that I'm not religious. I think everybody knows that. I just try to be fair to everyone on this. But again, you know, when people write it and they're like, well, you're biased. Yes, I'm biased. I'm not religious. I mean, yes, but I'm not prejudiced against y'all.

I just, we have to, it's hard for us to deal with these, Gabe. I don't know. For me, these are always hard because I'm like, well, the answer is obviously this. Oh, but then you believe that you're doing something against God and going to hell if you do that thing that I just advise you to do. So maybe don't jump in with both feet. I don't know. It's always tough for me. What I can say is if you decide to do the testing, make sure you're getting good healthcare, you get the results in the time frame you need them. And if you can't, maybe you go somewhere that you can or you do redundant testing and just don't put yourself in this

situation again. Nobody deserves that. Honestly, I'm more angry at the hospital or the doctor or whatever than anyone else in this story. If you do do the testing, get clear with yourself and with your husband about what your values are around terminating or keeping a child and have the conviction to stand by that decision either way. I think a lot of the pain you're in, it's born from these tensions we've been talking about. And by some confusion around these principles and the process you're in to make sense of them, resolve those things. I think you'll find the clarity and peace you're looking for. Again, I'm so sorry you went through this. My heart goes out to you. I don't think you're a monster. I don't think Jesus or your religion are turning their back on you.

if that's fair for me to say, I'm totally unqualified to say that, but whatever. Look, I get you. That's what I'm saying. And the only realistic option at this point is to learn from this experience, try to understand what it's showing you, and then incorporate that into your values and your choices going forward. And if you're really struggling to work through this pain, then, of course, I would recommend you find somebody to talk to about this. Obviously, I would love for that to be a therapist, given the subject matter, pretty heavy, pretty complicated. ideally one who is not directly in your community, given the topic. I think you would benefit from somebody who is maybe more impartial,

but this is not something anybody should have to go through alone. And there might be some really important talking and processing that has to happen to get through this period. Okay, so if you need some support to arrive at a better place and make sense of this, I really do hope you find it. Absolutely. Sending you and your husband a big hug and wishing you all the best. Speaking of blasphemy, Jesus might have cast the money lenders out of the temple,

but he's also casting some amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. Even God's Only Begotten Son wants you to save a few bucks. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All of our advertisers, discount codes, everything you hear on the show from the sponsors is searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I just listened to your recent interview with Scott Galloway, and it really hit home for me. I'm a mom of boys who have struggled the last few years, and it breaks my heart. From my own experience, I've observed that young men are often dismissed when they struggle socially or emotionally and are unfairly treated and left out. Nobody is stepping up for these young men, and as parents, there's nowhere to turn. Yep, still getting a lot of great responses.

to that one that was episode 1250, by the way. I am particularly worried about one of my sons, who's 19. Both my husband and I have doctorates and science, and I've tried to provide every opportunity for my son that I possibly could. He struggled from a young age, having been diagnosed with ADHD, but tested remarkably high on IQ. He has a level of understanding of difficult concepts and science that is light years beyond what my husband and I have. But his social and scholastic development have been a train wreck. He got a perfect score on college entrance exams, but struggled to complete homework and missed a lot of school due to health problems and COVID. He would teach himself the material and do very well in exams, but most of the time never do his homework, and his grades reflected that.

He failed to connect socially and was very isolated and disengaged from school. The heartbreaking part is that he's meant to be at some high-end academic institution in research and development. I don't just say that as his mom. I mean it as a scientist. He's constantly teaching himself high-level engineering, building complex contraptions in the garage, contacting authors of obscure papers to get insight, and coming up with brilliant ideas to improve various things. When he was in middle school, he designed a science experiment that he conducted at the edge of space with a weather balloon, and wasn't even considered for a prize at the science fair. He taught himself ham radio, got a license from the FAA and used fellow ham radio enthusiasts to help him follow and retrieve his weather

balloon after the experiment in another state. That is so cool. What a kid. This is amazing. This kid sounds a little bit like me, but like 10 times smarter. I'm super impressed by this. The science competitions were run by women, who, prior to giving any awards, announced that girls were going to be supported in the fair, and the winners were all girls with social

experiments. I'm not against girls in science. I applaud every opportunity that girls are given to enter this remarkable field, but I also hate it that it has pushed talented boys out. I saw how this approach left my son and other young men devastated. Despite our encouragement, my son never entered another one. Okay, yeah, I don't blame him. Why bother?

Look, this is, I don't want to go on a huge rant here. I don't apply for podcast awards either for, let's say, similar reasons. I get the intention, but look at the results. I mean, yes, why bother? I don't blame him one bit. And when he applied to college, not even one accepted him. He's hung up all the rejection letters around his room. That is really sad.

Just picturing this incredibly gifted boy getting mistreated and looked over by this conventional system. Especially the homework part, it's like, when I was in college, you didn't even do that. You just took the exam. So it's like, what's important here? I don't know. Make up your mind. This is like the opening of a movie about some misunderstood genius before he finds his groove and then, you know, does his best work. Little Goodwill hunting.

Yeah, exactly. John Nash or something. Like, everyone underestimated him, and then he cured, I don't know, multiple sclerosis or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Either that or it's the prologue to a Marvel movie, because this is kind of how you get the green goblin, folks. I'm something of a scientist myself. It's quite the child to have.

I'm rooting for him super hard right now. I was also the guy who, well, forgot slash didn't bother to turn in my homework and then would do well on exams and my teachers were like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, does it matter if I do it? understand it and they're just like, yes, and then I got to, they're like, this is how the real world works. And then I got to college and they were like, homework. No, we don't care if you do it. That is not how the real world works. This is not the real world. I look back and I'm like, oh, I see. You teachers just didn't understand at all how the real world works. No, that was not, none of that was true.

None of it, zero. Didn't understand me. That too. But like, none of the things my teachers said were going to happen in the real world happened at all. So she goes on, add to all this the dissolution of activities for young men that are not sports. And you have a generation. of isolated boys on computers. My son has always struggled socially. I recently heard an interview with the man with the highest IQ, and it reminded me so much of my son, the way he spoke and how he struggled as a young man.

What advice do you have for a mom who's desperate to not see a young man's potential be wasted? How do I help him to not give up and languish in social isolation and loneliness? Signed, finding the right tack, to help my son find his way back when he's on his own track. Man, really good questions. First of all, very sorry your son has struggled academically,

socially, that it's been hard for him to find his place in the system that we have, despite his incredible talents. It's just really tough. And I'm sorry for you as his mom having to watch him go through all this. I can only imagine how painful that must be. I'm a parent. I know all we want for our kids is to see them flourish and have fun and connect and find what they're great at and succeed. So your son's journey must bring up a lot for you, especially as a scientist who knows how gifted he is. And my heart goes, out to you for that. Now here's the good news. Your son is 19. He's got so much life ahead of him. There's so much time to help him find his path. And it's not too late for this kid, okay? And he has a mother

who wants to help him succeed, who understands his struggles and the larger struggles of men in this generation, who's a scientist herself and appreciates his gifts. I think that's what's going to make all the difference. So my first thought here is a general one, which is your son is clearly unique. He's hyperdeveloped in certain areas, like engineering. He struggles in others. like socializing. That's obviously very challenging. The conventional world is largely not set up to nurture the gifts of a child like your son. It's probably not even set up to fully recognize those gifts. So it's not entirely personal. I think it's largely structural. And it's one big reason a lot of young people with exceptional abilities, men especially, it's why they find themselves floating and

checked out and alienated. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for him. That there aren't institutions and companies and communities that would benefit from his talent, that there aren't resources and opportunities for a mind like his. Whether that's certain types of schools or programs for neurodivergent people without traditional degrees or communities that offer alternative educations, whatever it is, but it's going to take some extra work to find those programs, to help your son take advantage of those programs. It won't always be easy, especially if he struggles to connect with people, but it is possible. We hear about it all the time. Second, I wonder if your son would benefit from being evaluated again. You said he was diagnosed with ADHD. He tested remarkably

high on IQ. You said he struggles to connect socially. He's isolated. He's disengaged. There are probably a lot of explanations for that, including his baseline personality. But while Gabe was reading the letter, I can't be the only one who is going, huh, okay, these do sound a little bit like the symptoms of autism, which by the way is very compatible with ADHD. In fact, I think that when they overlap so-called odd DHD, that can include things like executive dysfunction, social challenges, intense interests, all of which your son does seem to have. I'm not in a place to diagnose anybody, of course, but I would strongly consider having him evaluated by a psychologist. The benefit of having him evaluated is not to find a label you can slap on his

symptoms and call it a day. It would be to have the best possible model for understanding your son, talk with an expert about what he needs, and then use that label if it exists to advocate for him, create opportunities for him, support him, motivate him, know how to respond to him when he struggles, all of that. Totally agree, Jordan. The other person who might be helpful for your son, I guess I'm just going to fall on the sword all day today, is a therapist. So many of the things you shared with us from the science fair to the not getting into college, to the ongoing social alienation, the loneliness, those are all traumas. They would be traumas for anyone, but they're unique

traumas for a neurodivergent child. And it would just be so great if he could talk to somebody, ideally somebody who specializes in neurodivergent patients so he could work through that and have someone else in his corner who can help him learn to understand himself and meet adversity and hopefully work with his mind and the world in a new way. That's another reason the diagnosis could be useful because if he is on the spectrum, that's crucial for a therapist to know. And it might also help you find the best modalities for him. I hear CBT and other behavioral therapies can be quite effective for autism, for example.

I also think it could be the best way to help your son not give up and languish and loneliness. as you put it, there's a lot of history there. There's a lot that is not under your control. Yes, you can support your son, you can encourage him, you can cheer him on, you can include him in plans, you can get him out of the house and all of that and you should. But at 19 years old, he's going to have to learn how to develop the parts of his personality necessary to build relationships for himself, even to decide if this isolation is something he recognizes as a problem and wants to work on. But that is a bigger project than just, you know, make sure you get this person's phone number and text them later and set up a plan or whatever.

This is something he'll probably need to work on over a period of time in some kind of therapy or some kind of program. That said, it might be worth looking for other people like your son, communities you guys can tap into online and person, Reddit, Discord, through a therapist, through a parents network. I would just start researching and asking around see if there are any places or groups where highly gifted people like your son gather.

Is there an engineer club for neurodivergent kids? Is there, I don't know, a coding boot camp for adults without degrees an open source coding engineering project out there, a tech company or a university in your area looking for some help. If he meets a friend or two in one of those places, what hobbies or groups are they involved in? How can you encourage that relationship?

I was so happy when you said that he's contacting authors of obscure papers to get insight. That's just such a great sign. That means that he does have it in him to connect with people when he's lit up about a subject. And honestly, those emails or phone calls, the relationships he could build that way, those could be so much more valuable

to your son than a college degree, frankly. I have to assume that these people love that a 19-year-old genius is reaching out to them. And if your son could cultivate those relationships, if he, I don't know, offers his time or his expertise or asks them for advice, those connections could open a lot of doors for him. So if I were you, I would really encourage your son to engage with those people and those places. I know he struggles to connect, so you might have to do a little bit more work to get him started, but this could be a game changer. and he's already doing it, but he might not realize the full potential of connecting with these folks.

I'm just thinking about what you said, Jordan, how the conventional system isn't set up for people, like her son. And I wonder if maybe the best thing she could do is start helping him understand his struggles through that lens. So like, if he ever tries to apply to something again and he gets rejected, maybe she could say, oh, man, they didn't take you. That sucks. I'm sorry. I'm angry. I'm bummed. But you know what? That just means they're not your people. When you're ready, you know, let's go find the people who are your people. Or if he gets turned down from a group or a job, she could say, I know this hurts. I'm so sorry, but listen, this does not mean it's game over.

It doesn't mean that you're not smart or talented or interesting. This is just one place. So let's keep going. Let's try another. I love that little reframe there. A reframe, but also not entirely a reframe, right? It might really help her son to acknowledge the reality that he will struggle more than the average person to fit in sometimes because he is unique.

But that the meaning he makes of those setbacks and the conclusions that he draws about his self-worth and his prospects, those are under his control. Totally. There's a kind of delusional reframing that can tip over into toxic positivity or denial. And then there's this kind of reframing where it's like, okay, we're not denying the facts, but we are staying open to other more helpful interpretations, more hopeful ones. Yeah, exactly right. Honestly, that's super important for all kids to talk to them in this way. We talk about resilience quite a bit on this show, and what I've come to appreciate about

resilience is that it's not about not feeling defeated or injured or disillusioned or hopeless. It's about being able to feel those things but not be defined by them. And that's what language like this helps you do. Ultimately, that might be the best way to support your son to help him understand that he doesn't fit the mold. There's still a great path available to him, but he's going to have to work for it. The kid who launches a freaking weather balloon into the stratosphere in middle school, this person is not designed for a normal path, okay? Your son might be a guy who apprentices with a famous scientist or invents some cool product or codes apps or teaches other neurodivergent people one day. Or who knows, maybe with the right support, he does learn to

succeed in more conventional environments, but with this very unique personality. Yes, also possible. Your son is far too gifted to be a total failure. He doesn't see himself that way, but you can. You can model for him the belief that the world is still open to him. So my advice is, Stay close to him, but don't smother him. Encourage him to keep playing, keep contributing. Get that assessment, maybe a therapist. Keep showing him that curiosity, effort, passion, those matter more than prestige or conformity.

You sound like an awesome mom. He's lucky to have you looking out for him, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox,

your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're debating whether to leave your addicted spouse when you don't believe in divorce. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. You know what every future Marvel villain needs? A mattress, a living will, and discounted psychotherapy. We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy. And Bombas is leading that charge in my house. We love Bombas so much. It's all we wear. We even gifted to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sport socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into,

running, golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year, and these things are cushioned, sweat-wicking and packed with techy features that make it feel like your feet are finally on your side. Around the house at night, I'm living in their Sunday slippers, which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights. And Bombas also has underwear and teas, buttery soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase,

Bombas donate to an essential clothing item to store. somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated over 150 million so far. Head over to bombas.com slash Jordan and use code Jordan for a 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash Jordan. Code Jordan at checkout. This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audiobooks a week prepping for the show and let's be real.

There is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone. Honestly, I wish I'd had Audible back in the day instead of zoning out to hours of mindless TV. Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head.

Lately, I've been into Michael Aaron Flickr and Richard Schotton's hacking the human mind, super fascinating stuff on influence, decision-making, what actually drives people. And Audible's Well-Being Collection goes way beyond that. Brne Brown, Jamie Oliver on nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. ever supports your mindset, health, or daily routine, Audible has it. Membership is 1495 a month after 30 days you can cancel any time. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day

trial at audible.com slash JHS. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter Webit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from us to you from a past episode. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand-plus episodes and apply to your life, I invite you to come check it out. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Also, there's a subreddit for the show if you're a redditor. Look for the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

A lot of interesting conversations going on there. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, in March of 2025, I started a new job at a small IT firm with two other branches, both located out of state. The workload was manageable and the pay was decent. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, the owner brought my branch into a meeting

and informed us that we were being sold to another company, citing the difficulty of managing our branch from such a distance. This caught almost everyone by surprise. The same day, we met the new owner and were asked to sign employment paperwork immediately. This included a sign-on bonus that would need to be repaid if we voluntarily quit or were terminated for cause. I felt pressured and blindsided, but I signed the paperwork, as did my colleagues. All of this occurred just two days before we officially transition to the new company. The transition itself has been rocky. It feels as though neither company was fully prepared for the transfer. This has caused several rifts with our clients, significantly increased workloads, and led to a general sense of distrust toward the new company.

For example, I had a week of PTO scheduled over the holidays prior to the merger, the old company paid out our PTO balances, and under the new company, we were given only three days of PTO to last from October through December, I got sick and had to use two of those three days, leaving me with the choice of either missing my family's Christmas gathering or attending without pay. While I understand that transitioning to a new company is never easy, the new company's policies and culture feel impractical and incompatible with the established culture at our branch. My colleagues at this branch are equally frustrated. While I'm relatively new, they've worked together for five years and have already survived transitions through three different companies.

Our branch has a group of well-rounded skills, we work exceptionally well together, and we could realistically operate as our own entity. I've heard growing concerns around the office, and morale does not seem particularly high. This led me to consider the idea of purchasing the branch as a group and operating it as an employee-owned entity. The challenge is that none of us have experience with something like this, and I'm unsure how to even bring the idea up to my colleagues or where to begin. We have a solid, loyal client base that has stayed with us through two company transitions, and their biggest complaint has consistently been having to work with technicians located in other states. Some clients have even threatened to leave if they were unable to continue

working directly with our branch. What an endorsement of you guys. How would you recommend bringing this idea up with my colleagues or gauging their interest in such an arrangement? Is this something that seems worth pursuing? Signed leading the charge to go all in, and enlarge. Ooh, that's kind of exciting. Love me a little entrepreneurship, a little palace intrigue. Yeah, a little Game of Thrones with Ethernet cables. Totally. Yes, exactly. First of all, I'm sorry to hear the transition phase has been so rocky that it's created all these problems for you and for the team. It sounds to me like the owners aren't exactly bad people. They're not being malicious or anything. They're just moving really quickly and their way of doing things is at odds with the culture of your

branch. This happens all the time. That said, I totally understand your frustration. It sounds like you're not the only one, and probably these people aren't being very thoughtful about how these policies affect everyone, employees, as well as clients. So I got to say your idea to purchase the branch and start this new employee-owned entity, that's pretty interesting. I love that you're thinking beyond the question of how do I survive this job, and you're wondering, is there a better structure here? Is there an opportunity here? That really is an entrepreneur's mindset, and I love it. You sound resourceful, creative, driven. Those are awesome qualities. Now, candidly, I know nothing about employee-owned entities or how you create one, especially by buying one branch of a multi-branch

company that just bought your branch? I don't know. I'm guessing that's going to be complicated. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but there's a lot of moving pieces here. The new owners, your colleagues, your clients, and you, it's just going to take some top-shelf, strategyry, and execution to pull this off. There are also a lot of unknowns. Which of your colleagues wants ownership over, you know, stability and a paycheck? Who's willing to take on the legal and fiduciary responsibility with you? And who knows whether the current owner would even entertain a sale? How's your bonus going to work? How do policies get determined?

How's the transition going to look for that too? And perhaps most importantly, how many clients would stick with you guys? Do they have long-term contracts with the company? Would they feel confident following you guys as sort of an upstarty kind of thing? How is the current owner going to respond to losing them? Is you going to sue you guys for approaching all the clients? All these questions need to get answered. I'm not saying don't do it.

I think it's really interesting. I'm just saying take some time to really think about what buying this branch really means. what's going to determine success here? What would you need to go right in order to make this work? So my first thought for you is you need to become a true student of this idea. I would spend time researching employee-owned structures, ESOPs, co-ops, partnerships. I would do some digging into whether your clients are under contracts with the parent company. Obviously be subtle, maybe even ask a client casually if you have that kind of relationship. That seems like a very important piece of information. I would study your employment agreement. You could also drop it into chat,

GBT, tell it your loose plan, ask it to tell you all the potential obstacles. I would also take the temperature with the new owners, see if they have any desire to divest or consolidate, if they could be convinced to do so. That'll be the hardest one to suss out without giving away your idea, so I would be careful with that. Maybe you can gather some intel. Basically, you need to get smart about this structure, and you need to stress test the fantasy, because it's all fun in games until you realize that you're going to be dealing with payroll anxiety, legal compliance, keeping clients happy, sales targets, managing people, all of that. So before you breathe a word about this to anybody, you really want to know what you're going to be getting into and getting tactical.

Yeah, I agree. And as for bringing this up with your colleagues, I would maybe get together with them, or at least the ones you're close with and you trust. Maybe you start one-on-one with a couple of the most trusted colleagues before you go to the rest of the group. And by the way, I would probably do this outside the office, just so nobody overhears you. talking about this, like one of those ministers and Game of Thrones who's like hovering around the corner and happens to overhear the plans for the coup against the king. And I would very casually be like, so, you know, I've been thinking about this whole transition. Obviously, it's been kind of rocky.

I think we all know that. I also keep thinking about, you know, how strong our team is, how loyal our clients are. And the other night, I was just like, what if we had our own branch, you know? This sounds so self-conscious now that I'm saying it. But it's like, you know, what if we were independent? Wouldn't that be cool? Something like that. That was a a little heavy-handed, but I think you know where I'm going with this. And just see how they respond. If they get that twinkle in their eye, if they're like, oh, interesting, tell me more. Yeah, that is kind of interesting. I would love to be my own bot or whatever. And they ask a bunch of good follow-up questions, then maybe you explore it some more, and that would be a good sign that they would be

helpful partners to you. If they shut you down, or they change the subject, or they poke a hundred holes in your idea from the jump, or they just don't seem very interested at all, then you probably have your answer. Or maybe some get excited and some don't. That's likely too. And in your head, you can play a little game of clue until the only card still standing are the ones who should be your future business partners. I'm also just thinking about your role here. You're the newest person at this branch. Your colleagues have been there for what, five years. You said they've gone through three big transitions together. In a way, that could be an advantage. Maybe you see the opportunity that they're missing. Maybe they need somebody with fresh eyes to be

the leader. In another way, though, it could work against you. They might perceive you as the new guy who just doesn't know how complicated this is, or, you know, the new, who's like stirring the pot and creating even more risk for people who are tired and have already gone through multiple upheavals. So just maybe factor that into your approach. I'm not saying, you know, that you're not the person to lead this. You know your colleagues best, but it's just one other variable you might want to keep in mind. Maybe you should appeal to their experience. Like, you guys have seen way more than I have. What am I missing here? And maybe even say, if we do this, I would want you to handle these specific clients or reassure these specific employees

because they trust you, that kind of thing. Even if this plan is not ultimately doing, there are other options here. The most obvious one is just start your own IT shop. You know, take a bunch of your colleagues with you and poach clients from your old employer. They sound like they're halfway out the door already. So you might be able to literally have paying customers on day one. The most interesting thing in your letter to me is that you're seeing an opportunity here, like Jordan said. Trying to buy this branch and run it as an employee-owned thing is a very cool idea and it could totally be the move. But I do wonder if it's just unnecessarily complicated, Whereas starting your own company and just eating your former employer's lunch, that's not going to be a walk in the park either.

But if you're going to be doing all of this work anyway, it might be in your interest to just start fresh. My thoughts exactly. That way, you don't have to convince these new owners who just spent a bunch of money buying this branch and a bunch of time integrating it to part ways with this. And you'll probably make more money by being the full owner or having more equity anyway than by making the business employee owned. Plus, if you start your own thing, you get to choose who comes with you. And you can be strategic about which skills and which personalities you end up taking. Whereas with the employee owned entity, I honestly do not know how that works. But I'm guessing it would be kind of hard to say, hey, yeah, guys, we're all taken over,

you know, Viva the Revolution or whatever. But actually, Ted, sorry, bud, we don't need you. All you know how to do is software updates. And Jared, you make great coffee, man, but you did not seem pumped about this when I brought it up at happy hour. So, yeah, awkward, but Friday's your last day. Good point. How do you deal with the Ted's and the Jared? in that situation. I would rather feel everyone out in advance, make some moves privately,

and then choose a great starting lineup, and also invest in an ice espresso machine so they don't need Jared to make the coffee anymore. So maybe you do some research on that too, the advantages and disadvantages of these two models, the risks and opportunities of each, and just see which one appeals to you. But my gut is telling me that starting your own thing is really the move. Whatever you do, do your homework, be smart, be discerning, surround yourself with people who share your vision, your work ethic, your risk tolerance, who want to build in the same direction, and I know you'll make the right call. Good luck. And now it's time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler.

Ah, yes, and we do have a license for that now, so you don't have to listen to me and Gabe, butcher it ourselves. Thanks for letting us workshop our terrible British accents for the last few weeks. Yes, and sorry for offending all of our UK listeners with our mediocre dialects. I do somewhat regret that, but I did need the practice. So, as you guys probably know, I love to read physical books, audio books, I love them all. But if you read a lot, it can become a bit of an expensive habit. Yeah, can confirm. If I didn't get PDFs of the books I read for the show, Jaden or Juniper, they wouldn't be able to go to college. Sorry. I wonder which one would have to miss out on college. Whoever turns out less funny, I don't make the rules. Anyway, I feel you on this.

Carry on. Yeah, the stuff heads up fast. Yeah. And when you buy books, then when you're finished, you either have a digital copy on your Kindle or your iPad that you just never open again and you can't pass it on to somebody else, or you're left with a physical copy that you have to find room for on the bookshelf or you have to do something with. So a few years ago, I started using an app called Libby. Libby is the main app that libraries around the country use to lend out digital books and audiobooks and magazines. All you need to use it as a library card, which is, of course, totally free. It integrates seamlessly with Kindle so you can download the book through Libby, and then you can read your book on Kindle. You can annotate and highlight just like with any other Kindle book.

It sinks across devices automatically. It works everywhere in the world. world as far as I can tell. The only downside is sometimes you have to wait for a hold on a book, just like you do at the library, because they have only so many digital copies, but that's not a huge deal. This has cut my book budget down to nearly zero. The only books I buy now are ones that are obscure or out of print or whatever, or when I want to keep a physical copy for a very specific reason, or I'm getting somebody a gift. Otherwise, I use Libby. I love this app. It's just like going to the library without having to physically go to the library. Big fan, willing to it. in the show notes. Good one, Gabe, and way to keep libraries alive, I think. That's always nice.

And now all that money you're saving on Tom Clancy novels and audio or erotica, you can put that toward the amazing sponsors who make this show possible. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If you can't find a code or something's not working for you, email us, we'll happily dig it up for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. And now for the rest of Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My parents divorced when I was six, and my dad remarried

a year or two later. I spent many childhood weekends and summers with my dad and stepmother, and I truly have a lot of warm memories of that home. I even lived with them during my high school years. That period was bumpy, partly because I was a pretty typical emotional teenager, and partly because my two younger half-brothers were very young at the time. But over time, I grew into good relationship with my brothers, even if we were never extremely close. I always lived on the West Coast, but 12 years ago, my husband and I moved across the country to be closer to my dad's side of the family. I wanted real, consistent connection for the first time in my adult life, holidays together, being part of a larger family network, and especially being present for my nieces and nephews growing up.

Between 2014 and 2020, we had some good times together, but there were also some rough patches. My husband and I began to notice a pattern where my brothers and their families always seem to come first in planning visits or gatherings, and we were expected to adjust around them. We were rarely invited to my dad and stepmother's home, which is about 20 minutes from us,

unless one of my brothers was already planning to be there. There were also occasions where plans with me were canceled, at the last minute if one of my brothers decided to visit instead. And there were small but painful moments. For example, once we were invited over specifically for my birthday, but my stepmother happily announced that the meal and dessert were my brother's favorites. Boo! Over time, these things added up and both my husband and I began to feel like we were more

of an afterthought than part of the core family unit. Then, in 2020, during the early COVID period, everything came to a head. My husband has a heart condition, so we were extremely cautious and limiting contact, while the rest of the family was still regularly gathering. Around that time, there was also tension after I made a poorly worded comment to a sister-in-law about her involvement in beauty pageants, which I personally find meaning to women. I later apologized and tried to clarify that I simply didn't understand that world, not that I meant to insult her.

That Thanksgiving, my husband and I were excluded from the family gathering at one of my brothers homes. Ouch. Yikes. Interesting fight, that is. I mean, okay, but like, is that comment worth not inviting your own sister to Thanksgiving? Sorry, I insulted your love of tiaras. I don't know what I mean.

Get over it. This is so petty. It depends how much you love beauty pageants, I guess. Maybe the sister-in-law is really passionate about them. Yeah, but then, like, okay, somebody doesn't like a thing that I like. All the time, this happens. I am a podcaster, sir. people, you know how long people have been like, what's that?

That's for dorks. What kind of loser does something like that? I mean, maybe not in 2026, but certainly for the first decade and a half of me doing this. So what? Something tells me beauty pageants are more loaded for this family for some reason. I'm getting a sense our friend here in her family. They probably speak different languages, very different languages and probably hold pretty different values, whether it's about public health or beauty pageants.

But I don't know. I was thinking like, okay, Lib Tard side and Magaside. They're not getting along during COVID. Okay, so what? And I'm saying that ironically, people, don't get mad. But the husband has a heart condition. I feel like even the most plannedemic conspiracy theory, sort of crazy right wing, the whole thing is a planned by the alien lizard people. If you got a heart condition and it might kill you, that's different from like Vax versus anti-vax drama or like mask versus no mask drama.

This is like, you know, he could die. He's got a heart condition. Come on. Like, give him the benefit of the doubt. You sweet, sweet summer podcaster. Yeah. You think science is going to unite people in this day and age? I don't know.

It does make me wonder if there's more going on here just in terms of their personalities and the things that they care about and get upset about. But safe to say, she and her family are on different pages for sure. She goes on. This shocked and hurt me deeply, especially because everyone had already accepted our invitation to Christmas at our house. They claimed Thanksgiving was all ad hoc and there was quote unquote no plan, which was not true. I expressed my hurt and things deteriorated from there, mainly with my stepmother. Just to clarify, I never cussed anyone out, stole money, killed anyone, etc. Not yet.

I just got mad because we were excluded from a major family event after already feeling excluded or insignificant on several occasions. Good on you for speaking up, I guess. We have no idea how that conversation actually went down, but it sounds like it was time to speak up and try to figure this out. I mean, just the whole like I made your brother's favorites on your birthday thing. It's kind of, I mean, come on. We all know what's going on here, don't we? I don't know, actually. I think sometimes when you're really hurt, those tiny, innocuous things that the person didn't intend can actually sting.

Yeah. You can hurt quite a bit, but maybe she didn't mean it. Maybe she was an offhand. I don't know. It's hard to know sometimes. But anyway, she goes on. Since then, I've apologized many, many times for getting upset and agreed to multiple family counseling sessions and meetings. Oh, wow.

This is one of the only times we've actually heard about a family going to therapy together. Yeah. So that's promising, but I'm going to go ahead and guess. That's not where we're getting this letter. But in every one of those meetings, my stepmother becomes extremely upset and things escalate to the point that nothing ever resolves and we end up right back where we started. Never mind. My stepmother continues to say that she is still hurt without ever being able to clearly name what I did beyond tone or perceived disrespect back in 2020 to 2021. Hang on. Let me check my watch. It's 2026. Get over it. Five years now. Five plus years.

It's so frustrating. So her feelings were hurt five years ago, and she's decided to hold that grudge and never let go. That's reasonable. That's the mark of a mature, well-adjusted adult. During difficult conversations, she has become highly emotional, yelled, cried, walked out, or shut down completely, including one time where she literally covered her ears and loudly recited the alphabet, so she wouldn't hear me speak. No, come on. That, okay, that deal mostly.

seals it for me. I mean, that's just... Come on, man! Y'all know we try to make room for everyone's point of view in these letters as much as we can. Conflicts are rarely neat and clean, but your stepmom sounds like a total child. You're hurt, you're upset, you feel slighted, fine. You express that. You talk it out with the person, you work through it. To literally cover your ears, and I can't believe I'm saying this about an actual adult,

scream the ABCs so you don't have to hear the other person. That is an insane thing to do. Objectively. Was a therapist in the room? I was wondering if that was in the therapy session or if that was just like in their living room. It had to be because she would, the look on a therapist's face when this is going on. I mean, if that therapist is worth their salt at all, they would hopefully get in there and help her figure out what is going on when she does something like that. Right.

It would be like, oh, I see what's going on here. You have three functioning brain cells and the emotional maturity of not even a three-year-old because my daughter would never do that. She would never do that. If you are literally covering your ears, if you're going, I actively am making it impossible to heal and move on, only my feelings matter. I'm not listening. ABC, D, FG. You can't be in a real relationship with somebody like this.

This is ridiculous. Totally. Meanwhile, my own herd is never acknowledged. Every family meeting eventually becomes about me apologizing all over again while nothing changes. Yeah, look, even if you share some of the blame here, even if you made some mistakes and you need to work on some stuff, not acknowledging your experience whatsoever and making you apologize over and over again. And then changing nothing, this tells me that these are not actually true conversations with your family. Yeah, I would tend to agree. Although let's remember,

she didn't say they make her apologize all over again. She might just be choosing to apologize again and again. You know, that's a good distinction. The sense I'm getting is that she's not making progress any other way. And progress to her, I imagine, is closeness, consistency, right? So she might be going, okay, I'll say I'm sorry over and over again, maybe that'll get them to embrace me. But it might be having the opposite effect. Right. It might be actually emboldening them to act this way. Maybe. Yeah. It's hard to know for sure because we weren't there. But I wonder if they hear her apologize over and over again. And then they go, well, she's in the wrong. That's why she keeps apologizing. It's not us. So we don't need to change

at all. Yeah. I can't get this image out of my head of a grown woman with like gray hair going ABC, F, G, F, G. Just so, like, patently ridiculous. It seems like something you would see in an episode of a reality TV show or, like, I don't know. It's just absolutely ridiculous. I, okay, I wonder what would happen if she stopped apologizing in these family meetings. Let's come back to that. So she goes on, my dad strongly believes that, quote, husband and wife are one under God, unquote.

And when my stepmother is upset, he withdraws, rather than, than risk conflict in his marriage. That's a nice little biblical cop out there, I think. I mean, very common. So dad's just bowing out to keep things on an even keel and protect his unstable, ridiculously immature wife and avoid any conflict with her, which is really a way of sparing himself.

Oh, it sucks that this is how so many systems work. The group cramps around the least evolved person. Oh, yeah. It reminds me of families that have an addiction, and you always hear from the other siblings. This is like an Al-Anon thing, right? you always hear from the other siblings, like, your life revolves around that person and their drug addiction. There's an episode for people who don't have an addict in their family. There's an episode of breaking,

or a few episodes of Breaking Bad, and one in particular. Jesse goes home and stays with his parents, and he's got a little brother. And the little brother's like a good kid and doing well in school or something like that. And he said something like, man, you're the good kid. You know, mom and dad are so proud of you. And he's like, are you kidding? You're the only thing they ever talk about, about Jesse. And that hits him pretty hard because he's like, oh, I'm the loser that everyone forgot about. And they're like, no, our whole life revolves around you and how you messed up your life. Yeah, so this is kind of like the same thing. This whole family has to cramp around stepmom because they don't want to have to deal with that nonsense. So she controls everyone with this absolute insanity that everyone just puts up with because,

well, that's the way it is. And then everyone else has to assume the responsibility and pay the price, which is infuriating. Yeah. I also, I mean, can't help but notice that the whole husband and wife are one under God thing. That apparently didn't apply in his previous marriage when he got divorced when our friend here was six and started a new family. But that's none of my business.

Sips T. Strong take. More like a husband and wife are one under God when the wife is BPD and I don't want to deal with her. Am I right? Yes, exactly. Husband and wife are one under God, unless wife is making me sleep on the couch because I stood up for my daughter when she acted a fool at Thanksgiving and covered her ears and screamed the ABCs instead of actually talking out our problems. This guy is going to be real lonely when his wife dies. And our friend

here's like, oh, you need me to take care of you? What about the other kid? Oh, they don't care. Okay, now you want me to come over for the holidays? New phone. Who dis? My half-brothers have also stopped speaking to me since 2020. They've said that they won't reconnect until everything is resolved with their mom. But no one can ever define what resolved actually means or what is. What is a is expected of me beyond endlessly apologizing. What this means is they need the all clear from mom to have a relationship with you because otherwise she'll punish them because this is her controlling her whole family that she's done. She's done this her whole life.

Or these are her sons and they're just taking her side and they assume that our friend here is to blame? Yeah. I mean, it's probably always been this way. I mean, this is just, it's, this is bullshit. Gabe, again, I really want to make room for the possibility that they might have a point that she might have done something to contribute to this breakdown. But it really does sound like her family is being vague.

and avoidant and constantly moving the goalposts at her expense. So what the hell is she supposed to do? Years have now gone by. I've missed so much of my nieces and nephews lives, including two who were born after 2020 that I've never even met. I still see my dad alone sometimes when my stepmother allows it. That is a very telling detail. Yes.

When she allows it, so she's telling her husband when he can see his own daughter. Yeah. Okay. And those visits are usually warm, but he always circles back to pushing for another family meeting. These meetings are emotionally draining and always lead back to the same dysfunctional pattern. I've had countless sleepless nights, severe anxiety,

and I feel like I've been grieving a major loss for years. It's almost like a death that never ends because the people are still here, but the relationships are gone. And the reality is I've essentially been iced out of this family for more than five years, simply because I expressed feeling hurt and like an outsider. That's really hard. I'm so sorry to hear this. I hate this. I'm not claiming I handled everything perfectly. I don't think anyone did. Yeah.

Comparing your sister to John Bonae Ramsey probably didn't do well, but whatever. You know, that's none of my business. Sips T. Dude, Jordan, the fact that she is admitting that she might have not been perfect also goes a long way and suggesting that she's the reasonable party, as we often talk about. But anyway. I mean, well, that in the ABC La Lala can't hear your thing. I mean, I don't know. That tip the scales for me. The scales, yeah. I'm not claiming I handle everything perfectly.

I don't think anyone did, but I've apologized, reflected, and tried to repair things many times. At this point, it feels like reconciliation requires me to permanently accept blame without any accountability or empathy on the other side. Well, not only permanently accept blame, but continually accept blame. It sounds like you've already accepted blame. And then even if they're like, good, we did nothing wrong. They're still not putting this behind them. It's like, no, no, no, we're still going to hold this grievance and this grudge and make you feel like you need to apologize. over and over again. That's why nobody can move on. I've admitted that I'm wrong in situations where

I don't think I am or the other side has accountability just to move on and everybody moves on. The problem is here nobody's willing to move on. I feel exhausted and I honestly don't know what a healthy next step looks like anymore. My husband firmly believes I should refuse any more meetings for the sake of my mental health, but the guilt is brutal. Ooh, interesting. That's got to be an important signal in all this. They're making it hard, impossible really, to meaningfully address and work through this for years. But when she thinks about pulling back, she's the one who feels guilty.

That's interesting. Given this pattern and history, would you attend yet another meeting or finally step out of the cycle? How do I release the guilt and sadness of losing the family closeness I always wanted and even moved across the country to build? Are these even people worth continuing

to pursue a relationship with? And how do I continue to love my dad while protecting myself from being the permanent scapegoat? Signed, a gal whose patience is growing thin as she fights to fit in with this kin when they won't just check in on my apparently mortal sin. Foo, man, this is a tough one.

Early Dark Jordan pitch telling me won $100 million. They'll throw you a birthday party. You have $100 million. I don't have any kids in my own. I really want to set up a trust for my nieces and nephews. By the way, I haven't even met some of them. Should we rectify that? They are going, you will find yourself welcomed with open arms.

They don't have to know it's a bunch of BS. Chad Chit GPT should be able to mock up a winning lottery ticket, right? Why, you don't need to show them the ticket. You just need to create a bunch of fake trust documents. That's like a very light lift. Don't actually do this. I mean, you could. I don't care about these people.

That is too funny, dude. Imagine making up that you are multi-millionaires so that your family loves you and then just keeping it a secret. Well, they're selfish. This is just appealing to them being selfish. Like, hey, mom, get over your crap. Don't pull any of your alphabet recitation nonsense again. We want little Jackie to have a friend. ride to college because so-and-so is going to pay for it. So be on your best behavior. Everybody

welcome her back with open arms. Now, will that really work? I mean, probably. You might feel somewhat bad about it, but like, I don't know. But do you want to meet your nephews or not? Yeah, do you want to meet your nephews or not? And here's the best part, they won't find out until you're dead. So whatever, not your problem. What a funeral that would be. Oh, man. Yeah. Hey, how do we handle the bank stuff? What bank stuff? You know, the money. Oh, that was a joke.

And then when they're like, what? You say, ABC, the EFG, X, that, California, V, R, S, U.R, S, U.S. Y, Y, Y, T, F, T, F, F, F, F, F, I'm out of here. The inscription on her tombstone is just the ABCs all the way down. Yes, it just A.C. And it just trails off underground. Around Q. Oh, my God. This is not your problem anymore.

So, first of all, I hear how painful this has been for you for a very. very long time and my heart goes out to you. Being the black sheep and the family is always tough. I wouldn't really know. I was an only child, but I guess I always did feel a little different from a lot of the people I grew up with somehow. I knew a lot of the black sheep in their families and they all talk about how lonely it can be sometimes. My mom was also, she was like the quintessential white sheep in a family of black sheep. Yes. In a family black sheep. So feeling like you come second in a variety of ways, having your family put other people first and not really acknowledge it or make it right, that's objectively painful. I get why it's hard. Although I will say, not to dismiss your feelings,

just to put this in context, I do think it's fairly common for families to prioritize the kids who have kids themselves, just because they have the numbers. It sounds like you and your husband don't have kids, as I hinted at earlier. I'm not sure if that's the case. I'm not saying that this is the only reason this is happening, but sometimes families kind of reorient around the people who have kids because their schedules are harder, because it's harder to ask them to accommodate everyone else. I'm not saying it's totally fair, but it is often how it happens. I mean, that kind of happened in my family. I don't have siblings, but both Jen's and my family kind of revolve around our house because the kids are here and that's just how it is. They don't seem to mind so much.

But if I had maybe a brother who was childless, maybe he would have some feelings about that. But anyway, that might explain some of the planning stuff. It doesn't explain the emotional stuff. It's just something to keep in mind. These slights might not all be entirely personal. But so all that said, the picture you've painted in your letter is that you and your family are misaligned in a number of ways. COVID protocols, beauty pageants, communication styles, social etiquette. I mean, I don't know how much to read between the lines here, but I'm getting the sense there might be some political differences between you and your family, as I mentioned earlier, or at least some values differences, and that can create some very real fissures in a family.

But let's put aside for a moment the question of who's right about all this stuff. That's not really the issue. The issue to me, are there some shared core values in this family? Do you guys have a language for navigating differences? Can this family listen? Can this family repair after conflict? Do they love one another enough? Do they respect one another enough to have a functional relationship on that plane,

even if their beliefs and personalities are quite different, which is how many families operate? Exactly. And what I'm hearing is, no, they don't or they can't, at least not right now. And that might just be the way it is. And let's just acknowledge, that sucks. That really sucks. Everyone wants a family, everyone deserves a family, to be rejected or slighted by your family,

to never feel like you can really get in with them and be treated on equal terms, that's a wound. And it sounds like every time you interact with them or every time things get bumpy, that wound gets reopened. So my answer to your question is, given this pattern and history, yes, I think you probably need to step out of this cycle. That doesn't mean not having any relationship with your family. It just means stepping back and trying things in a new way. I don't think these family meetings are getting you guys anywhere.

That's pretty clear. Certainly not by apologizing over and over again. You gave it a go. I'm glad you did. I am too. That showed you were willing to work on things. You were willing to own your piece of this conflict. You were not trying to be right.

I think that was worth a shot, even if it failed. But given how everyone else has shown up there, your stepmom especially, it just does not sound productive. This might also involve you and your husband adjusting your expectations of your family and seeing what that's like. You know, whether it's the expectation that they factor in your schedule. the same way as everyone else or meet you with the same level of interest or that they really engage with your opinions. None of those expectations are wrong or inappropriate. It would be really awesome if your family could do that. But as you're finding out, not all families can. And that's where this pain gets recreated. Right. So if they can't meet those needs and expectations,

at a certain point, you got to go, okay, is it fair to continue bringing those needs and expectations to them or do I kind of have to read the room here? Yes, but I do want to be clear. And I think this is what her story is really about. That's also very, very painful. It's not just a matter of intellectually deciding, okay, I'm not going to need dad to back me up anymore. I'm not going to get upset when Bill won't let me meet the kids. I'm not going to take it personally when stepmom unleashes at me at Thanksgiving when she doesn't make my favorite dishes for my birthday. And then, you know, like, voila, zero pain. This is about bringing more awareness to what specifically you might be looking for your family to give you, whether it's realistic, whether it's safe to expect those

things from them and, yeah, experimenting with new ways of relating to them, which might in fact be less intimate, less connected, at least for a period of time, and then noticing what that does. Does it help your interstate? Does it invite something new into the family dynamic? What does it bring up for you? So once again, Gabe, we're talking about grief. The apologizing over and over again, the trying so hard to get in her family's good graces, that has probably helped stave off the grief of having to confront the possibility, increasingly the reality, that she might not have the family she ideally wants. So to go back to your question earlier, Jordan, what happens if she stops apologizing? What happens when she stops working so hard? Then something new has to happen, largely on

her side of the equation, and that might be where the real work begins. I think so. And that would include working through the guilt, through the sadness, which is probably very old, very layered, and that's going to take some time. Like I said, the guilt is especially interesting. I mean, it sounds to me like they're sliding her in all these ways. They're marginalizing her. Stepmom is, I don't even know what to say about that situation. She's out of her tree. Dad just retreats, and he's failing everybody involved by not calling her out because he's kind of a coward.

And yet it's our friend here who feels guilty. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that. It's pretty common, but it is also a little surprising. That would be really rich territory for her to explore. My hunch is that the guilt is partly a way to stay connected to her family. If she decides to give up and pull back, that would mean feeling all of this pain even more. And the guilt might be a way to have to keep. trying with them. It's kind of like an emotional glue. The guilt might also be a symptom of feeling

like it's on her to fix all this. And I'm guessing that dynamic goes back a long way, all the way to childhood. I'm sure. I also wonder if what she experiences as guilt is actually inverted anger. Interesting. Like she's angry at her family, but she's turning that against herself. Yeah, and specifically, I'm so mad at you for hurting me might become, it must be on me to make you love me. Oof. Yeah. That actually breaks my heart when you put it that way. Because that's how a child understands this stuff. Children don't go, mommy can't listen to me, daddy doesn't care about me, they go, there must be something wrong with me that mommy doesn't listen and daddy doesn't care. And then they contort themselves in all these ways to try to get

those needs met. Like you said, this probably does go back a very long way. So I think this is less about releasing that guilt and sadness and actually doing the opposite. I would invite them in, daring to bear them, trusting that whatever feelings come up are actually part of how you find a new way with your family. It's possible your family will always cause you some pain, but how much pain they cause, how you work with that pain, what meaning you make of it, by which I mean what conclusions you draw about yourself worth based on their opinions and their behavior, even what conclusions you draw about them, that is under your control to some degree. And so, yeah, it is entirely possible that these people are worth continuing to pursue a relationship with, but the

question they're posing to you in their strange way is what kind of relationship should that be? What kind of relationship does a want to be? It's a very big question. It's a little confusing and also it can change over time. Maybe the answer you come to is honestly not much of a relationship at all and you are allowed to decide that. Or maybe the answer you land on is some relationship but with less contact or less frequency or I just have to be a little bit more careful with myself so I don't get as hurt by them when they don't meet me the way I wish they would. My guess is that that's probably where you're headed. at least for a little while. But that question is going to be a lot easier to answer once you experiment with some different

ways of being with them. I also have a feeling that that's going to make it easier for you to continue to love your dad while protecting yourself from becoming the scapegoat, as you put it. Because if you refuse to be the scapegoat in the first place, which is something that I would definitely encourage you to play with, then you might feel less resentment toward your dad for allowing you to be in that position at all. There's so much to say about that. But I wonder if you might be looking to your dad to do something for you that you now need to do for yourself.

Good point. It's not an unreasonable want to be emotionally protected by a parent, but you might not actually need that from him. Yeah, exactly. And another consequence of that shift might be you might start to have some compassion for your dad. Right now, all you see is how he's failing you, or a lot of what you see is how he's failing you, which, again, totally understandable. But if you put down the scapegoat role, if you stop trying so hard to apologize over and, over again, then you might start to see how your dad is in a way failing himself. It's probably not that he doesn't love you. It's that he doesn't have the capacity for conflict, for sturdiness, the conviction to say to his wife, honey, I see that you're upset, you need to take a breath and listen to what my daughter is saying for a moment. Maybe stop melting down and reciting

the ABCs and blaming her for everything and work on this with her. He just can't do that. But it's really hard to have that compassion when all you're in touch with is your own pain, and your own need, however fair and appropriate that need is. Man, that is so true. And of course, now I'm thinking about Joe Loyah and how he got to that point with his own dad. Yeah, totally. Great parallel. The whole thing with his father, you mean how he finally saw him? Yeah. Yeah. That compassion, that's really only possible when you get out of your own story and really appreciate the other persons. It's so hard to do, but it's so powerful. Listen, I'm going to say a hard thing. I don't say it lightly. My intention is not to hurt you more.

I think you know that, but I also get the sense you're ready to hear it, so here goes. Your family, they might not be the family that you always hoped for, the one that you moved across the country to be closer to, the one that you're so hungry for. They are your blood family, of course, and I hope they always play an important role in your life, but they might not be your family family, a system that loves you the way that you deserve. Some family members, they just don't yell, man, partly because of personalities, partly because of these capacities, partly oil and water kind of stuff, and that's obviously, obviously really sad. This is where the grief gets intense. But I want you to make room for the idea

that you can find this love and connection in a lot of places. Your husband, of course, your friends, your chosen family, and not just that you can, but that you should. Not everyone is blessed with family that's amazing and loving and perfectly compatible, but everybody is blessed with the ability to create that love in other places. So that's my hope for you as you find your way through this new chapter with your family. You might be surprised by what's on the other side, who knows, but it's definitely going to be growth and whatever that looks like, that's the real win.

Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out our episode with Derek Coburn and our skeptical Sunday on Passport Bros, if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business

have come through my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty folks. Six-Minute networking is free without any shenanigans on the thinkific platform at six-minute networking.com. Show notes and transcripts are on the website

at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Tadis Adlauskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. We're more connected than ever and somehow more vulnerable than we've ever been. Cyber crisis author Eric Cole explains how AI-driven attackers, corporate scale, scam operations, and aging systems have turned everyday tech into an open door.

So you want to be 100% secure? You want your family to be 100% secure? it's easy. Pack up your bags, sell everything, move to Pennsylvania and become Amish. Because I'll tell you, I hacked a lot of things in my life. I have not been able to hack a candle and a horse and buggy. If you have no functionality or no benefit, you can be 100% secure. And to give you a more realistic example, my smartphone. As soon as you add any functionality, you're decreasing security. Security and functionality are inverse. 100% security is zero functionality. what is the value and benefit?

What is the risk and exposure? Is the value worth the risk? If the value of benefit is worth the risk, do it. If the value and benefit is not worth, the risk don't do it. And the reality is, and I always tell people, the most dangerous word on the internet is the F word. And it's not what you're thinking. The F word is free.

Free is not free because all the times when you have a free app, you're basically allowing them to access your microphone or your camera or your pictures. if they ask you and you say yes and you give them permission, that's actually an authorized app and it's allowed. And the reality is most people don't even realize when they install these apps, they're hitting yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and allowing access. If I want to make my smartphone 100% secure, smash it, burn it, throw it in a ditch, turn it off, and it'll be 100% secure.

It's actually freaking scary of how much you're being monitored and tracked with your phones that you don't even realize it. Check out episode 1247. of the Jordan Harbinger show with Eric Cole, and you'll start looking at your phone, your home, and even the power grid very differently. Quick break, and if you like this show, there's another podcast you should check out.

If you want to stay informed about what's happening around the world without drowning and noise, check out the president's daily brief. It's built for people who want the big stories fast and clear. Think 20 minutes in the morning, then a quick 10-minute update in the afternoon. Just focused coverage of the developments shaping the world right now from the Middle East and Venezuela

to China, Russia, and beyond, with an emphasis on what actually has real-world consequences for the United States. The show's hosted by Mike Baker, a veteran of the CIA with decades of firsthand experience, so you're getting smart analysis from somebody who's been inside the system.

You get straightforward context to help you understand what's happening and why it matters. Follow the president's daily brief wherever you get your podcasts and stay ahead of the curve. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast.

Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard to let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of their show that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love,

and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb

and start listening. You can thank me later.