The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1343: Stats Say Most Men Are Bad and It Makes You Sad | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

You've read the data on men and violence, and it's draining your hope in half the population. Can the numbers survive a fact-check? It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1343On This Week's Feedback Friday:For anyone following the saga of Christopher Ahn (episodes 996 and 997) we're ecstatic to share his recent good news!You're moving the whole family in with your wonderful mother-in-law — calmer streets, a big yard, grandma next door, hundreds saved a month. There's just one problem, and he has claws, a grudge against your two sweet cats, and a reputation a stranger once called demonic. Do you draw a line in the litter?A while back, a woman who'd survived real loss and an abusive marriage wondered whether she should set her younger partner free to spare him her past. Now she writes back with an update — and a stranger with an uncannily similar story sends a letter of her own. What did trusting love actually require of them?You're the only woman on an all-male engineering team, finally breaking through and feeling truly seen — until a married colleague mistakes your kindness for something more and says it out loud. Now you still sit a few feet apart every single day. How do you reset a line you never meant to blur?Recommendation of the Week: Mighty Plugs Pure Beeswax Earplugs — moldable beeswax-and-organic-cotton earplugs that conform to your ear like putty, carry a top-rated noise-reduction rating, and stay put through a full night's sleep (waterproof and reusable, too).You're a 25-year-old medical student who clawed your way up from almost nothing, and the statistics you keep reading are quietly draining your faith in half the population. You want one honest perspective that survives a fact-check — a pea-sized reason not to give up on men entirely. Is there one?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: Babbel: Get 3 months free with code JORDANQuince: Free shipping & 365-day returns: quince.com/jordanProgressive Insurance: Free online quote: progressive.comAT&T: Get an iPhone 17 Pro for $0: att.com/iphone or visit an AT&T store for detailsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my sweetheart, helping me impart how to get a head start, Gabriel Mizrahi. Amazing. Call back to the one-time wheat air, is it? Yeah, you know it, but pipe down there, sweetheart. I'm trying to do the intro here. My B. We gotta make sure we don't get evicted, sweetheart. God, it's not even nails on a chalkboard. It's something itches inside the back of my spine when I hear that now. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former jihadis, astronauts, extreme athletes, tech luminaries. Are there tech luminaries now? I feel like those people are on the outs with society. This week we had Lou Velosi, author of Ray Kahn, The Betrayal of an Informant. Lou was an ATF agent who ran one of the best and most productive informants in ATF history. This guy, Ray, went undercover and infiltrated just tons of criminal gangs, leading to hundreds of arrests. Fascinating story. If you like our crime episodes, you'll love this one.

We spoke with Jacob Ward on artificial intelligence and how it might actually make us dumber and removes our ability to make decisions, just how calculators have affected us and our math skills, or maybe I should just speak for myself. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on Zinn, those pouches that you put in your mouth, they're nicotine pouches, they're all the rage now. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and never let the funniest pet names we hear on the show die. But before we kick off today, we wanted to share an update on Christopher On. So Christopher On, just to remind everyone, he is the former Marine we had on the show, who in 2019, with an NGO that he was involved in, he entered the North Korean embassy in Madrid, hoping

to help staff members defect. But the operation ended up going sideways. North Korea identified him and intended to actually assassinate him, which is kind of derivying. And so for the last several years, he's actually been fighting extradition to Spain on charges tied to the incident, which, as we talked about in our interview with him, that was episodes 996 and 997, by the way, at just a fascinating conversation, a wild story. This case has been extremely challenging, quite devastating to Christopher mentally, emotionally, and financially. Well, a couple months ago, the judge in his case finally released a decision to stop his extradition. So the government had 35 days to appeal.

In the end, they did not appeal. So this is all behind Christopher at last, at long last, the legal part anyway, which is a huge win for him, obviously a massive relief not to get extradited to Spain and then get killed in a Spanish prison by North Korean agents or something like that. Chris sent us a letter after the decision was released. Gabe, you want to read that for us? Sure. So he writes, the 35 days have come and gone, and I am now officially a free man. I now have to begin the process of rebuilding my life after being sidelined for seven years. I know it'll be a hard road, and to be 100% transparent, it's terrifying me.

I've spent the better part of a decade turning off my ambition, finding some contentment in my self-exile, and coming to terms with the fact that I could no longer be the man I used to be. I had to totally change myself just to be able to survive. Being suddenly thrust back into real life with nothing to show for the last seven years and having to now compete for roles against others who have been working in their field the entire time while I worked fiver jobs and minimum wage temp work, even though I'm absolutely relieved and happy that my legal battle is over, I get the feeling that this chapter will be much harder.

But like everything else, I just got to figure it out and do it not for me but for the people who depend on me. So it is what it is. I also want to be clear that I'm not complaining. The reality is that at this point, I share the same struggle as millions of Americans. I may have gotten to this difficult place in a different way, but having a hard time making ends meet because of a job market that has been thrown into utter chaos is something that is not unique to me. So I'm not special in that sense. This new difficult phase isn't just my struggle, but all of our struggle as a country trying to make sense of what's going on.

Thank you guys. It's been a very, very lonely journey, and I truly appreciate the few people who have gone out of their way to show me support and love. It's meant more than you can ever know. Christopher. Such a crazy journey that he's been on. My heart really goes out to him, man. I mean, he's got this or had this sort of Damocles hanging over him for seven years,

and now the challenge of going back into the world and trying to be. trying to jumpstart your career or restart your career. He obviously took a big risk doing what he did for apparently quite noble reasons, right? He was trying to rescue people from the North Korean embassy. But yeah, it sucks. It does suck. I am so glad he's free, though. Yeah. Better struggling here in America than in a Spanish prison or worse, in a hospital fighting for his life because someone ran up on him at Madrid airport with a neurotoxins, which North Korea has done before. Yeah. Anyway, I know Chris's story was a fan favorite. A lot of you donated to his GoFundMe, which is super kind of you.

So just wanted to share that update with all of you. As always, fun ones, doozies. Let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailback? Dear Jordan and Gabe, my husband, our two young kids and I are moving in with my mother-in-law in the next few weeks. There are many pros to this move. Her neighborhood has tons of kids.

The roads are calmer. There's a playground walking distance. Her yard is more spacious than ours. We'll be saving several hundred dollars on monthly expenses, and our kids will have their grandma close by. I also have a great relationship with my mother-in-law. She's an extremely kind and thoughtful person. She's always made it a point to make me feel welcome in her family,

and I really enjoy spending time with her. I've always appreciated how close my husband is with his family, how supportive everyone is of one another, and how lucky I am in this department, as so many people have horrifying mother-in-law stories. Seriously, count your blessings on that one. Our intention is also to help her out financially after her tenants moved out

and fill her home with some life and love, as she recently went through a difficult breakup and her father passed away. I'm sorry to hear that, but great, everyone wins? I don't know, that sounds like a weird thing to say after that, but there it is. When we mentioned the idea of moving in, she was ecstatic. She started making room for us before we even finish the thought. I am also very excited about the transition. However, there is one problem.

My mother-in-law's cat. Okay, not where I thought this letter was going. He is not a regular cat. He is extremely territorial, aggressive, mean, and unpredictable. He hisses at everyone he sees. He pees all over the place, even takes his turds out of the litter box and places them on the rug, couch, beds, tables, et cetera.

Wow. You know, sounds a lot like you, Jordan. It does, yeah. We're cut from the same cloth, me and this cat. Actually, it sounds like some of the guests you've had on the show, more like. It does actually sound a lot like Gene Simmons, frankly. Yeah. Gene Simmons and that boyfriend, the sweetheart boyfriend from a few weeks ago.

Literally, man. This is the feline equivalent of what that dude is doing emotionally, just melting down, throwing his metaphorical crap around, and making his girlfriend clean it up. That is too real. Seriously, though, I've never heard of a cat doing this. I don't know. Can cats be mentally ill? Clearly, there's something wrong here. We're already paying for the floors to get redone because of how much is spraying has ruined them. The poor dog has been restricted to only being in the kitchen because anytime she steps foot in a different space, the cat will sprint over and start attacking the dog. Claws, biting, screeching, it's awful to witness.

The dog is so sweet and calm and this asshole cat doesn't let her be. They need to get this cat on poxill immediately. Lexapur, stat dude. Not only does the cat attack the dog, he'll also attack people, completely unprovoked. He doesn't scratch.

He sinks his claws into your neck or arm or back, leaving puncture wounds that take weeks to heal. He's attacked my three-year-old on multiple occasions. One time, we were on the couch praying, and he walked up to us,

stared at my three-year-old. old who didn't realize the cat was there and jumped on her legs and wouldn't let go. Okay, well, that is scary. Fun fact, when my mother-in-law first got the cat, she was walking from her office to the car when a homeless woman stopped her and asked if she recently got a cat. She said yes, and the woman said, that's not a cat, and walked away. Whoa, okay. Wow. I watch a lot of horror movies, you know, just for kicks at night to relax. I don't know what to say, but this is straight out of one of those. So just to be clear, her mother-in-law wasn't holding the cat when this homeless woman walked up. She was just walking to her car and the homeless woman's like, hey, did you just recently

get a cat? I like, yeah, I don't know why. Well, that's not a cat. And then just continues on, like, wait, this little Oracle just tells you that your cat is some kind of demon and then shuffles off into the darkness. That's just terrifying. Amazing story. Yeah. Like I said, this is straight out of one of those horror movies. A happy family adopts a cat who's actually like a reincarnated serial cat. It's like that movie. It's like that movie. orphan? Except the orphan is a cat. Yes.

And Ethan Hawk is in this movie for some reason. And he loves cats. So he's in a real old pickle. 15 years later, we are still dealing with this entity posing as an orange gato. The main issue is that we have two very sweet, very cuddly cats that we will be bringing with us. Ooh, yikes. They are outdoor cats that spend most of their day running around the neighborhood.

They make friends very easily. There are always random cats in our yard, Sunday. bathing with our two. Our neighbors have commented on how sweet our cats are. So I have immense anxiety about bringing them into a home where this evil demon cat lives. Something tells me Terrence the cat demon from the eighth circle of hell is not going to be pumped about sharing all of his cat toys and his space with a bunch of super chill kitties that like to bring friends over. He also doesn't seem like much of a sunbather. I'm just getting that vibe. He's an old cat and is probably sick and in pain and that's why he's such an ass. Okay, I appreciate the empathy, but, you know, okay. I mean, it might not be the cat's fault,

but it is his responsibility to address, am I right? Yes, good point. Take some accountability, bro. But my mother-in-law refuses to even call the vet and have him checked. That's not cool to anyone involved, including the cat. I mean, the cat could, is spraying everywhere, could have kidney issues, could have a UTI. That's why he's all over the place. I mean, that's happened to our cats before. So she just doesn't want bad news, and she's going to let the cat suffer with whatever. because she doesn't want to deal with that, that's not okay at all. She was a witness to him attacking her three-year-old grandchild on more occasions than I have seen myself. She even gets attacked in her sleep by this douchebag.

My husband and his siblings have been trying to get this cat out of that house for months now. My mother-in-law will not budge. Her reason being that she's not a murderer. We suggested that she give him to a shelter or rehome him with someone she knows. She doesn't have to put him down, even though I personally think that's the best course of action, given how aggressive he is. But I also feel bad even suggesting she put him down, given all the loss that she's gone through in recent months.

Yeah, that's tough and sad to think about, but come on. But I very selfishly don't want my cat's temperaments to change or for them to get attacked, and I don't want to live in fear that this guy's going to attack me from behind a corner if I need to pee in the middle of the night. What would you do in the situation? Should we set an ultimatum that we won't move in until he's out of there? Dark Jordan, my ears are open.

signed trying to streamline our approach to making sure we're going to be fine and wondering if we need to draw a clean line when it comes to this demonic feline. Oh boy. Well, first of all, congrats on mostly hitting the mother-in-law jackpot. You know, she sounds great in every way except how she manages her demon cat. No one's perfect as opposed. I mean, no one's perfect. Yeah. Always a flaw.

It's also hard to know how to deal with entities posing as animals. Yeah. I'm sure you guys moving in with her will really lift her. or spirits. Y'all are lucky to have one another. All except the satanic cat, of course. So this is a little tricky. It's not your cat. It's not your home. It's really hard to tell your mother-in-law slash landlord.

You have to get rid of the cat or we won't move in. It's an option, but it's just hard. At the same time, y'all are going to be housemates, and this is your husband's mom. So that gives you guys a little more influence over the situation. Also, she should want the house to be safe for you and your kids and your cats, too. Honestly, yes, I would have straightened this out before committing to moving in together. it feels like a deal breaker to me, but okay, you guys were excited. Maybe you didn't think about this until later, and here you are. Now, I know your husband and his siblings have tried to get her to get rid of the cat.

She won't even take it to the vet for a checkup because she's afraid they're going to be like, hey, there's a zillion things wrong with this cat, and you've got to put it down. I agree that's sad, and I have some compassion for her. She's just gritting her teeth and ignoring this nightmare because the thought of having to euthanize this cat is too sad. But come on. But this is a crazy way to live. Crazy. Bananas way to live. She's probably giving herself health problems by not getting a full night sleep because the cat could just scratch your face off in the middle of the night. But here's the thing, and I think this could be very useful. My understanding is that if you take a cat like this to the vet, most vets are not going to automatically jump straight

to euthanasia. No, I think they're going to want to understand why the cat is acting like this first. Yeah, they're probably going to want to try to prescribe medication, recommend some lifestyle changes or something. I mean, one of our cats was spraying everywhere and going to the bathroom everywhere. It wasn't vicious or anything, but we were just like, what's going on? This is knew, we looked it up and it was like, oh, maybe there's a UTI. So the vet was like, yeah, that's actually usually what it is. Sometimes it's other things. We took him to the vet and he had gnarly arthritis, which we kind of knew just by the way he was moving. And they gave him an arthritis shot and it helped a ton. And so there's not really the same problem at all. And it's like

a monthly shot. It's a hundred bucks or something. I don't think most vets are looking for opportunities to put animals down when there's another way to handle the situation. No, my understanding is that it's truly a last resort. So I think it's a great opportunity for a conversation as a family. If this were my mother-in-law, I'd be like, hey, listen, I think we can all agree. Terrence is a challenging cat. We know it's been sad and stressful to figure out what to do for him. We feel for you. It's also very clear to us that he poses a real risk to our children, your grandkids, to us personally, and to our cats as well, and to you, frankly. I know you've gotten and used to his antics, but it seems really hard for you, too. And in fact, we're pretty worried

about how he's affecting your sleep, your mood, the general vibe around the house. There's obviously something very wrong with this kitty, and he's probably in a lot of distress. Now, we know you don't want to take him to the vet because you're worried about what they might say, but we looked into this, and aggression in cats can come from a lot of things. Pain, illness, fear, territorial stress, cognitive decline, behavioral disorders. If we take them to the vet, they'll take a detailed history, they'll look for medical causes. They'll try to figure out what's causing it. They'll probably recommend medication or environmental changes or they'll refer us to a veterinary behaviorist, which is a thing that I'm surprised exists, but apparently does. They're not going to force us to

put Terrence down. So we want to bring him to the vet and we need you to work with us on this. This is absolutely the right thing to do for him, for you, for us, for everyone. I love that. Great script. I hope she listens. It's hard to ignore that, right? It is hard. Yeah. But look, the more family members you can get together to have this chat, I think. the better, your mother-in-law needs to see that everyone in the family feels this is a problem. She can't keep sweeping this under the rug. This is not just about, you know, making sure your kids don't get little boo-boos and your cats don't get into hissing matches. This is about making sure Terrence doesn't swipe at your kid and blind your child or that your mother-in-law can get

a good night's sleep, that your cats don't get disemboweled in the yard or get bitten a bunch in their face, and that Terrence himself doesn't have to suffer with whatever diseases or disorders that he has that are going untreated right now, which is actually kind of torturous. Totally. And if they get this cat treated, her mother-in-law might get to enjoy a whole new cat potentially turns 2.0, you know, very much not euthanized and also maybe not a demon anymore. Totally. I would mention that. I would give her some hope for that timeline. As for setting an ultimatum, that's really up to you. I can't tell you how much you should be willing to put up with. I can tell you that I would not move my family and pets into a house with a cat who might

seriously injure one of us, especially my child, unless the cat was maybe sequestered to one room and the door was always closed and we never had to interact with it, which to me is not humane for the cat. If you're asking, should we set an ultimatum to lean on my mother-in-law and get her to do what we want, I would say, yeah, that could be a good tactic. But if you do, you really have to be prepared to stand by it because she might dig her heels in or kick the can down the road or say, like, I'll do it after you move in. I just need some time. And if you're not prepared to say, okay, then we are not moving in right now and you make other plans, she's never going to take Terrence to the vet. And honestly, that ultimatum is probably

the best dark Jordan pitch I have. The other ones go to a very dark place that I would never actually endorse. I'm not going to tell you to poison your mother-in-law's cat. That's psycho. I would also never tell you to, you know, have it secretly catnapt or given up for adoption. You do realize the way you're saying it sounds like you're suggesting that that is when you are. Won't someone rid me of this turbulent pity? Yes. That said, I do want to prepare you for the possibility that euthanasia might be solution down the road, but based on what I've said, Gabe, I'm not saying euthanasia with a shovel. It doesn't have to be that bad. And based on what I've read, that's, euthanasia really only happens when there are a repeated severe attacks causing serious injury, or the cat is not getting better with

treatment and is really suffering, or the cat doesn't get better with treatment, or the vet decides the cat is experiencing profound suffering, or has a neurological disease, or it's living in constant terror or distress and just can't be safely handled or housed. If that turns out to be the case, as much as I love pets, cats included, I have to agree with you that it might be the best outcome. I mean, people do this with dogs who attack people. We had a dog that had a serious back problem. He was in pain all the time. We euthanized him. It was really sad, but sometimes it's necessary. And even then, I'm quite sure that euthanasia is considered a last resort. It's probably not even necessary yet. Also, you might want to tell your mother-in-law that in almost all cases the owner gets to

decide. The vet generally doesn't have the authority, as far as I know, to euthanize somebody's pet just because they're aggressive. So your mother-in-law will ultimately decide. And I would make sure that she understands that so she feels safe going to the vet and having a conversation with them. Yeah, I'm sorry that you're stressing about this. It's no small thing. This cat could be the difference between this chapter of life being super fun and sweet and being super stressful and scary. But I do think you can use this transition to force a necessary conversation. And I think you should. Gabe, I don't know about you. I can't imagine being in a home with something like this because you have to watch every step. Every room you go into, is it going to pounce on me? You could never relax. You could never just sit in the living room and watch TV with your kids. You'd always have to be on the lookout for a literal stalking cat that's going to jump on you, not in a cute way and actually try to hurt you. That's totally, and your child. So you're not only paying attention for yourself. You're paying attention for your kid 24 hours a day. That sounds like its own form of torture. I would just never do this to myself. But, you know, if all else fails, maybe you can track down that homeless woman and see if she'll come over

and do like a home exorcism or something. Maybe that woman has the answer. She seemed to know some stuff. Yeah, that was, that is so creepy. Nice pitch. Yeah, I'm going to be thinking about that for weeks, by the way. I'm not a big believer in ESP or anything like that, but how that woman knew about the cat thing is really beyond me. Sending you and your family a big hug and Terence, lots of feline serotonin and wishing you all the best. You know, it'll cheer up your mother-in-law after you disappear her cat, the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Babbel. If you're traveling this summer, here's the real travel hack. Don't wait until you land to start learning the language. I can tell you, even a few

phrases can change the whole experience. A little Gut and Morgan, a little que me recommenda. It goes a long way, especially when you're trying to connect with people and not just point at a menu like you're diffusing a bomb. That's where Babel comes in. Even just 10 minutes a day with Babel can help you start having real conversations in as little as three weeks. What I like about Babel is it's built for real life, not random vocab lists or verb charts you immediately forget slash never learn in the first place. If you're learning phrases you'd actually use, ordering dinner, asking for directions, checking into a hotel, talking with locals, the lessons are quick, practical, and built by more than 200 language experts. They've got interactive dialogue, personalized reviews, even podcasts,

all designed to get you speaking quickly and confidently. And Babel fits into your actual schedule, coffee break, commute, or just a few minutes before bed. If you've got summer travel coming up, now's the time to start so you can actually use what you learn on the trip. Right now, Babel is offering listeners up to 60% off. Go to babble.com slash Jordan. That's Babel, B-A-B-B-B-B-B-E-L-com slash Jordan, for up to 60% off. Rules and restrictions may apply.

This episode is also sponsored by Quince. Packing for Taiwan and China in the middle of summer is basically a stress test for your wardrobe. Hot is one thing, human and hot is another. So for this trip, I'm not pecking the maybe I'll wear this stuff. I need pieces that are lightweight, breathable, and versatile enough to work for a full month away, and that's where Quince comes in. Their linen shirts and pants are perfect for hot, sticky weather, easy for sightseeing, nice enough for dinner.

Comfortable on travel days when you're already questioning every life choice that led to a long-haul flight in the first place, their teas are soft, simple, and actually hold up. What's funny is that we originally started buying clothes from Quince, and now it's become one of those brands that we use for everything. Towels, bedding, luggage, jewelry for Jen. we're even bringing our Quintz suitcase on this trip. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen.

So you get the quality without paying for a fancy logo at a massive markup. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash Jordan for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-C-E dot com slash Jordan for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash Jordan. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. it is your support of our advertisers that keeps us going.

All of the deals discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? So about a month ago, we took a letter from a woman who was dating a younger man.

She had been through a lot of stuff in her life, fertility challenges, an abusive and troubled ex, who tragically ended up taking his own life, some professional challenges, financial challenges, but then she found this relationship with this guy, which is apparently amazing in every conceivable way, as far as we could tell. And her question was basically, should I stick with this guy or should I set him free so he can be with somebody with, you know, less baggage? Yes, this was the woman who was like, I get why he's into me, I'm awesome,

but maybe I should let him find someone even better. That's the one. So funny. Anyway, our take was, you've been through a lot and you clearly have some stuff to work through. But basically, take your boyfriend at his word when he says he wants to be with you and maybe don't blow up this amazing relationship just to spare him. When that's probably your own anxiety and shame talking. Yeah. Yes. So she shared an update with us and it goes.

Hi guys. Thanks so much for the episode. I did feel like my relationship was celebrated and my problem was cared for and seen through your advice. I have to say it had been a minute since I submitted that letter and I wrote it rather off the cuff. So listening to it induced a bit of cringe on my part, mostly because it's clear in the listening that I was not able to be really vulnerable about my history and my marriage and the impact

that it has on my current relationship. It's a fact that my partner and I are really happy together, affectionately connected to each other and don't have very many problems in our dynamic. Those that do come up, we are committed to solving together. It's definitely a love worth celebrating. Wonderful. I'm glad she knows that. You both were quite astute in picking up on the financial aspects of my strife. To give you a bit more context, my late husband did not work. He was a talented artist, but his mental health needs made it difficult for him to find financial success. I was happy to support this dream in the beginning, but as the years went on, he became more and more disconnected from the world of work, and it wasn't healthy or helpful to him.

I stayed for far too long in a dysfunctional relationship because he was financially dependent on me, and in the end, he only blamed me for it. Interesting. So she felt responsible for her ex, and then he resented her for sticking around when he couldn't even hold down a job. Seems to be the shape of it. Yeah, sounds like a troubled fellow. Obviously, given what happened, but maybe the most interesting thing about this is

she also kind of feels responsible for her new boyfriend, too, not financially, but emotionally. In the sense that she's trying to get out ahead of any, like, theoretical problem he might have with her stuff and preemptively break up with him, that's a good point. Yeah, these might all be different forms of caretaking. It's just an interesting theme. In some ways, my ex was correct.

I enabled his decline by removing the obstacles that all humans should face an adult life as part of personal growth. Going to work when you don't want to, dealing with a shitty boss, negotiations on values and meaning as a daily practice. I shielded him from all of that. This is interesting. So this is where her guilt comes from, and part of it anyway.

She feels she enabled him in spiraling and then tapping out. Which it's interesting. I mean, maybe she did, but does that make it her fault that he ended up where he ended up? I don't think so. No. But again, not to put too fine a point on it, but is this yet another example of assuming too much responsibility for someone else?

Even as I grew and changed and became a leader, he began to shrink. Misogyny played a role in both of our self-esteems when the woman is the breadwinner. Though I am no longer religious, we met and married in a high control and patriarchal religion. And the fact that I made the money was deeply shameful. He felt like less of a man. And I felt like I had to hide this fact from our community. Again, so fascinating. I got to say, to be fair, I get why as a man it can be challenging to not earn as much or more than your wife.

I'm not going to lie, I think it would be a little hard for me, too, just because of how society is structured and everything we're taught as kids. What I don't understand is why, as a man, if you're married to a woman who's more successful than you financially, and that bothers you, of course, for some people, it's an on issue. But if it does, I don't understand why you don't go, I want to use this as inspiration and find a way to make as much as she does. Or I need to investigate why this is so hard for me and learn how to celebrate my wife who's doing really well. Yeah, rather than going, well, this makes me insecure. Don't tell anyone at church that you make more money than me. Also, I'm going to try and belittle you at every turn. I totally agree.

But like you said, the guy was confused and clearly unwell. Yeah, for sure. I just feel bad that she was doing so well professionally and neither of them could fully enjoy it. She felt guilty for her success and he felt diminished instead of being proud and grateful. Why? Yeah, why? One of the last things my husband said to me before I left my marriage was that I would have to pay someone to be with me just like I had to pay him. Oh, dang.

Okay, this freaking guy. So my compassion for this dude is swiftly waning. He just sounds like an insecure dickhead. I know you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but sometimes the dead were, you know, jerks. I moved out after that, and he was dead six weeks later. Okay, so he killed himself after they broke up. Yeah, this was kind of new information for me as well. maybe I forgot this detail, but I thought it happened earlier.

I just assumed that as well. So, okay, I guess I'm kind of back to feeling somewhat bad for the guy. Obviously, he was in real trouble and when they broke up, that was he just couldn't handle it. I just hate that she's the one left carrying the pain. Well, sadly, that's often the case. I do hope in time, much easier said than done, but I do hope in time she learns to let go of that because we're hearing about a guy who had a responsibility to take care of himself and just wouldn't do it at all. And that's not her fault either. Obviously, he was very ill, but I did love him once. And the fact that we never got an opportunity to see each other thrive and build new lives despite the breakup will always be heartbreaking for me.

Yeah, I understand. I feel strongly now that in a partnership, both parties should prioritize financial independence. I worried that bringing my debt into my current partnership would only damage both of us. Again, very thoughtful of you. Don't disagree. Of course, that's up to you and your boyfriend to decide. And every couple's different. And, you know, that's fair too. Fortunately, I did have some recent financial successes, so I feel like I can be a more equal partner at the moment. This has been such a weight lifted in all aspects of my life, but has also freed me to enjoy this love more deeply. Jordan, I just want to say, I think in our response, we said something along the lines of, depending on your boyfriend financially, seems to bring up some difficult stuff for you, so maybe it's worth looking at that.

But equally, especially after reading this new letter, I appreciate how responsible she wants to be. And I think there's a good argument to be made for feeling like you're contributing fairly, whatever fairly means to your relationship. So you can relax and enjoy without feeling these conflicts or guilt or entitlement or whatever is coming up because she isn't contributing the way she used to. No, same here. Of course, what is fair and what's required to enjoy and what deserves guilt, all of those can change person to person relationship to relationship. But I'm with you. If earning more and contributing more makes her feel better. Right. Do we necessarily need to say that's a problem? maybe not. Again, it just, yeah, it sounds mature and thoughtful. Maybe the right question is,

do you feel you need to contribute in some material way like with money in order to be deserving of this love, in which case, where does that come from? And is that actually true? Or do you feel deserving of this love and contributing equally financially is one way of like honoring the relationship and treating your partner well? Because those seem to me two different things. Yeah, nice way to frame it. Although maybe even the idea of what it means to honor their relationship, kind of, needs unpacking. Yeah, fair point. Again, like you said, it's all up to them. Anyway, she wraps up. We're moving in together next month and are ready for all new adventures together with all the highs and lows of life. Thank you again for your feedback and support. Signed, the now more

confident cradle robber moving in with her great boots knocker and no longer about to totter about whether it's improper to choose this great guy if it means that he might not be a father. Well, that's a happy ending. Super sweet, no? I'm super happy. for them, not just that they're moving forward, but that they're moving forward, well, she's moving forward anyway, very consciously, very thoughtfully. I liked them a lot before. I like them even more now. So did you just want to share her letter to share the good news or what? Yeah, to share her good news, yes, because a few people wrote in and chimed in on the subreddit, and I know a lot of people were very invested. But also, I just wanted to take the opportunity to talk

about a couple interesting things here. You already jumped on one of them, Jordan, this feeling responsible slash caretaking thing, I think that's a really important parallel because her ex and her new boyfriend, these guys could not be more different, right, which is great news. But maybe this template of overly assuming responsibility for them in different ways, that might be popping up again in a different form. And if so, that might be a good quality for her to keep an eye on as they move in together. For sure, yeah. Closely related to that, actually, another listener shared some additional advice in that vein, and she put it better than I could. So why don't I just read her letter? Awesome. Let's hear it.

Dear Jordan and Gabe, when I heard the second letter on that recent feedback Friday, I felt deeply invested. I too am a woman who was widowed by suicide after being the sole breadwinner and the main caretaker in the household. A little over a year later, I formed a friendship with a significantly younger man who has gone on to become my life partner of decades. Wow, that's wild. What are the odds of that? I guess this is more common than we thought. Your advice was well thought out and comprehensive, I thought. I also had some things I would like to pass on to your listener. I would reiterate the point that in a healthy relationship, which we know your last one was not, you have to trust your partner, believe what he is saying to you, as well as

his actions and being a good friend and partner to you. Don't make decisions for him. That's not love. That's control. Whatever the lofty notions of protecting your partner from his own choices. Yeah, wow. Damn. Well put. I think you said something very similar, didn't you get? I think I said, are you fully trusting him when he says he wants to be with you? Like maybe don't try to manage him so much, even if it comes from a good place, and maybe that good place isn't always entirely good? So she goes on, are you also protecting yourself from the potential for future pain if this relationship doesn't work out? A hundred percent, or the potential for future pain if you find that you want different things in a few years. Which also depends in part on how much responsibility

for him she actually assumes, which is very interesting. Yeah, good point. It's like the only way to really trust what he's saying and showing her is to truly grant him the freedom to be. be with her because he wants to be. Yes, not because she's somehow making him or trapping him, right, which means being fully honest with him, which I think she's already doing about what she can and cannot offer him, which is great. So this new listener goes on. And one thing I don't think was touched upon was the fact that you both give up some things to be in this relationship. He might be giving up parenthood or having a more financially secure partner. He gets to make that choice. and if he does, you have to manage, one, the fear of the possibility that he could change his mind,

and two, the guilt that seems to come with feeling at least partly responsible for those losses. Yes, I think you absolutely nailed it. You may have a visceral discomfort with feeling responsible, even partly for someone else's emotional well-being in the aftermath of a damaging marriage and the suicide of your husband. I got to say, now I'm speaking as myself, that is an interesting way to put it. It might be more accurate to say that she's a little too comfortable potentially feeling responsible for another person's well-being, but now with a greater appreciation for the costs to her and her partner.

So this listener goes on. And that's what you may have to give up to be in this relationship, feeling responsible for someone else's well-being, and enjoying the freedom that comes with that. There is no perfect relationship. There will always be compromises and discomfort somewhere. But if this relationship is as lovely as it sounds, it may well be worth the fears and discomfort that come up. And if things don't work out with you too, I know that you have the strength to move on. That's also such a good point. She has to have confidence in him to freely choose her, but she also

needs confidence in herself to survive any potential heartbreak that might result from choosing. For sure. And is that grief that she might be trying to sidestep by prematurely breaking up with him, maybe? Yeah, it's amazing how often we come back to this. idea, do you need to avoid pain or do you need to trust that you can bear it? As someone who took a chance on something unlikely, I wish you all the peace and happiness in the world. You so deserve it. Signed, a listener with a similar fellow who heard our friend's letter and wanted to tell her that to enjoy this, she needs to quell her voice that wants to shelter from these feelings that might upset her. Wow. What a sweet letter. Yeah, I thought it was very

insightful and very touching. And I like that she did our job for us. That's kind of nice too. She kind of did. I thought so. And so I just wanted to share that because this is such an important thing that I am very much learning myself again and again, which is you just cannot manage other people's choices or reactions too much. You just can't. Well, it's harder for some than for others, isn't it? It is. All informed by our personal histories, I suppose. Maybe it's enough for her to just notice that there's a part of her because of this trauma with her husband, her past, her personality, whatever it is, that wants to do that. And to just bring more awareness to that whenever she's talking to her boyfriend or struggling to settle into this relationship. or making a decision and just say, okay, maybe that's me trying to control him again for reasons that feel like love and kindness, but maybe are also about this other stuff. Can I put that down for a moment and then just see what's what? Or can I acknowledge that I want to do that and then let him tell me what he actually wants and then listen. 100% man. I do wonder if it's that simple. Complicated in that these patterns are hard to rewrite. I get that. But simple in saying, I see this quality more clearly now. So let me just play with a new way. Yeah, exactly.

she already seems to be doing, I have to say. Deciding to move forward in this relationship and then also taking better care of herself financially, emotionally. It's very inspiring, honestly, to read about. But it seems to me that this is the courage not of overly engineering everything to minimize any pain, but enjoying all of this and accepting that the pain will be part of it. And that is such a huge shift for a person who has this particular pattern. Ready for all new adventures together with the highs and lows of life. Exactly. Congratulations, friend. And thank you. other friend with an eerily similar story for chiming in. I think it's cool that this show creates a chance for y'all to talk to each other from a distance and share these experiences, which I thought

were incredibly rare, but here you are with a very similar path, all learning and growing together, and I think it's truly awesome. By the way, y'all, you can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're trying to protect your kids from harm in a dangerous spiritual community, your partner's trauma field rage fits are compromising your relationships and housing situation, or your sibling wants to cut your parents off from the pain they caused decades ago, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. But you know, trauma, especially relationship

trauma, is fairly easy to get over. But you know what you would never get over? Missing out on the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Progressive. Insurance isn't one-size-fits-all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressives' Name Your Price Tool for years. With the Name Your Price Tool, you tell them exactly what you want to pay, they'll show

you options that fit your budget, enough hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates and tinkering with coverages, maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options, no guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be. Visit progressive.com and give the name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.

Pricing coverage match limited by state law. This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T. You know why I love summer? All those plans we made, they finally make it out of the group chat. Seems like there's more time to fit everyone in. whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those moments is a must. That's why I love the iPhone 17 Pro I picked up from AT&T. It's center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone in group selfies.

You don't even have to turn your phone. No awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time. And AT&T makes sharing those moments with everyone easy, because you've got to share the pick or it didn't happen, right? Right now at any AT&T, ask how you can get the iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible trade-in. requires eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply.

Subject to change. Visit ATT.com slash iPhone or visit an AT&T store for details. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, We BitWiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from Us to You delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand-plus episodes

and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. All right. Next up. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 34-year-old woman from Mexico. I moved to New York six years ago, and I've been working as a mechanical engineer for the past three years. Making friends here has been difficult. The only place I really socialize is at work, which can be challenging, especially since my entire team is male. Everyone has always been friendly, but I often feel a barrier

I can't quite break through. Conversations flow differently when I'm involved, and while we're all married, I can't help but feel that being a woman plays a woman. a role. Over time, I made a conscious effort to build connections with each of my teammates. We're all awkward, nerdy engineers in our own ways. Max became my closest friend, and I've even developed a friendship with his partner. We support each other through projects, roadblocks, and personal life events. Adam and I bonded over Formula One and food. He often asks me for Mexican recipes. Brian is hilarious. He loves South Park, and we exchange silly reels and work-related gifts. Tom and I connected over our shared love of Harry Potter. Joe is extremely quiet. Our interactions are

strictly work-related. And then there's Bob. Bob is shy and socially awkward. At first, I didn't particularly like him. He often gave unsolicited advice and came across as overly righteous. He used to be a serious runner, and when I told him that I signed up for a half marathon, he began offering tips and encouragement. That's how we started talking more. A few weeks into training, I experienced exercise-induced anxiety, where my body misinterpreted normal physical reactions like a fast heartbeat as danger. I mentioned this to Bob, and he shared that he struggles with anxiety as well. He recommended a book that I had actually read years ago during a difficult period with my own anxiety. That opened the door to deeper conversations about mental health and

life struggles. Through those discussions, I realized Bob and I were surprisingly similar, and that he was funny, too. For the first time, I truly felt that. connected at work. These weren't just superficial conversations anymore, and that made me feel more confident and grounded. Then two weeks ago, our team attended a conference in the city. Max, Bob, and I walked around the city, grabbed food and drinks, and headed home the same day. It felt normal, professional, and enjoyable. The next day, Bob asked me if my husband had gotten jealous. Ew boy, here we go. I was caught off guard. I said, no, why? Why? I was. I was caught off guard. I said, No, why would he? It was a workouting with colleagues I considered friends.

Classic mistake. Everyone knows you can't just go out and enjoy an afternoon with your female colleague without her being totally in love with you. Bob then explained that his wife had been extremely jealous and checked his location all day. I replied by saying, I understood jealousy because I had felt that way myself in the past. I asked him if he had talked to his wife and reassured her. He told me she didn't even know what I looked like and that it was all in her head. I empathized, having been the jealous one before. I shared a personal story about my husband and a female co-worker visiting from Europe, how I initially felt insecure until I met her, realized my fears were unfounded,

and eventually became close friends with her. Interesting. Well, okay, nice that you were able to do that. I feel like a lot of people can't. The next day I told Max about Bob's wife being jealous. We both agreed Bob didn't seem capable of doing anything inappropriate, and that the concern seemed misplicated. And then that Friday, Max had to leave early for a doctor's appointment, so I joined Bob for lunch,

and he opened up about a serious conversation he had had with his wife. He shared that he had lost his sense of self over the past three years, felt deeply unhappy, and was dealing with depression and anxiety. Oh, man, poor guy. And now he's hanging with you and feeling things again, and he's like, I'm in love with you. You hate to see it. I listened, offered empathy, and shared relatable experiences. Time flew by, and after over an hour, I said I needed to leave.

As we walked across campus, Bob stopped me and said there was something else he wanted to discuss. No, no thank you. He said we'd become friends and asked if I agreed. I said yes. Then he shared that the past few weeks had been eye-opening, that he felt we connected deeply, that we were very similar, and asked if I felt the same way. I was shocked. When he clarified that he felt attracted to me, I immediately shut it down. Yeah, I love that he had to clarify that he had a massive crush on her. Like, after this whole

monologue, he still had to be like, just to be clear, I'm super into you and I want to get into those pantalones. I reminded him that we are both married and asked what had made him think that I felt the same. He said it was because I was kind and wanted to connect. I explained that this is simply who I am with everyone at work. Okay, so pause for a second. I find this problem so interesting slash exasperating. This is something so many women talk about, and I completely get it, how men interpret even basic kindness as flirting.

And I kind of get it. I think that women sometimes don't fully appreciate that we're generally not used to women being super nice and approachable, which to be fair to women might say more about a lot of men, frankly, and so it can be hard to interpret the signals when a woman is actually. actually kind. And maybe there's an argument to be made for women being a little clearer in communicating their kindness, although, I don't know. I'm not sure it's really on them to do that. Equally true is that men need to be better at deciphering signals and really making sure that a woman is actually freaking flirting before you tell her that you have a massive crush on her and you

want to leave your wife or something. Come on. Especially in a work setting. Especially when both parties are, yes, working together and married. Oh, geez, man. The stakes are high, and he just threw it out there. At the same time, though, I think we men really need to understand that a woman's kindness, having fun with her laughing, that just does not automatically equal, hey, she's so into you, bro. Or even that you should be into her. There's a whole other awesome arrangement with this, and it's called friendship, okay? And I get it, the heart wants what the heart wants, but some of these people be to Lulu.

But also, the heart needs to make sure it's wanting the right things. Yeah, for both of your sakes. And so you don't then create a situation where a woman has to be like, okay, let me unfa-f-fix this situation for both of us, you bonehead? I told him with as much empathy as I could that he wasn't attracted to me, but to the connection, understanding, and emotional openness I brought into his life. Yeah, that's a nice way to put it. I know that's not easy, but that was the right thing to do. I agree, although I do kind of find this funny. She's like, you're not attracted to me. You're attracted to the amazing connection, understanding, and emotional openness that I, I made possible because I am amazing.

And hot, but yes. So, I know I'm hot and amazing, but you're not attracted to me. You just, you... It's not me. It's just what's happening between us. Yeah, Bob heard that and went, yeah, I said that. I'm super into you. I mean, I get what she's saying.

She's not wrong. I'm just laughing at how he must have heard that. So she goes on, I explained that this likely highlighted something missing in his marriage and that it was something he needed to address with his wife, not with me. I asked him to reflect honestly on what. outcome he had expected and what that would have meant for both of us. Yeah, well played, Armani. Kudos to you. That's not, this must have been hell of awkward. We went our separate ways. That evening, I told my husband everything. He was calm, trusted me completely, and suggested that I keep

some distance from Bob going forward. On Monday, Bob sent me several messages on teams. No, don't do it, Bob. I mean, he did it. Ola, Amiga. Oh shit, I'm already making this weird, aren't I? Yes. I just wanted to say sorry for dropping that on you last week and sorry if it made you uncomfortable. Fair enough. That might be him owning what happened and trying to make things right as best he can. Yeah. You're right. I might not have done that on teams, but that might have been a step in the right direction. Yeah, that does not feel like a slack conversation. Maybe do that at the coffee bean off campus. The least sexy coffee bean you can find in the vicinity. I kind of feel like all coffee beans are pretty asexual.

And now, today, Bob was out of the office. I wasn't sure if his absence. was related to the situation or if his mental health has worsened. I'm unsure how to move forward or how to handle future interactions. What's the healthiest way to reset professional boundaries after a coworker crosses an emotional line, especially when you still have to see them every day? Signed, an engineer trying not to fumble, this bundle of professional bungles

after I stumbled into a bit of trouble with a colleague who got things jumbled. Okay, I'm clearly you have to bang Bob and just get it out of the system. No, do not. Done. Let's move right on. Rec of the week, baby. Yeah, office romance. Highly recommended. No, first of all, big ups to you for moving from Mexico to New York City, landing a job as an engineer, speaking such strong English, really impressive. Unbelievable. Absolutely incredible. What a journey you must be on. That is no small feat. I have to say, this is neither here nor there, but I did not fully appreciate how hard it is to move to another country until I started traveling this year. And now I'm like,

Anybody who moves to another country and even remotely succeeds is a hero. And I'm not even moving to these countries that I visit and it's hard. So I can't even imagine what it's like for an actual immigrant. It's wild. It's true. You know, when I was younger, when I was in law school, I remember telling people like, oh, yeah, I moved to Germany as an exchange student. And then when I was in undergrad, I moved to Israel for a while. And I went to Ukraine.

I lived in Mexico. And people were like, for how long a week? And I was like, no, I stayed for like a year or, you know, I went to Yugoslavi. And they were just like, by yourself. You just went there. And I remember thinking, yeah, it's not that big of a deal, but then you realize that it really is a big deal to move somewhere, rent an apartment, start learning a language. And like I had in Yugoslava, I had a job. I look even now at age 46 and I go, who is that responsible young man? I'm not that person. I'm still not that person and I'm 46. I would never do that. Highly responsible,

reckless young man who moved to the Balkans state. Did not appreciate the work this was going to take to do at the time and the risk involved and just did it anyway. It was, It mostly ignorance. That's the real powder keg. It mostly was ignorance that got me through all of that. So I get it. But moving to the states, especially in New York, it just doesn't get any more intense than that. And you have a real career.

You're not working as an English teacher at a school in Belgrade. Also, she said making friends in New York has been difficult. That's a huge part of the challenge to being able to connect with people from a different culture, having to speak a language that isn't your native tongue. Plus, there's this whole layer of being a woman at your company, and I'm sorry that that's been challenging. But yeah, I commend you for all of it. Interesting situation with Bob. I know we're giving him a bit of a hard time. Maybe he kind of deserves it. But to be fair, if you're in an unhappy marriage and you meet someone awesome and you really connect, but you

misread all the signals because you're a guy who's been married for 20 years, and you work with this person and then you put your foot in your mouth, that is tough. And I'm just certain that it's really embarrassing. So I feel for the guy in that respect, he doesn't seem like he's a weirdo or a creep. He's just totally not reading the room and just keeps making it worse. But I do think that we doids, especially at work, like we're just saying, it behooves us to be very thoughtful with ye old feelings. Behooves. Behooves, no less. Oh, you're going to give me crap for behooves, Mr. $5 word when a 50-cent word will do? No, I love it. I just wasn't expecting you to say behooves in the middle of the second. Oh, I love a good behooves. I know. Behoove slaps. Let's be real. It does. The verbal equivalent of me

putting on a top hat and doing a little jig, little Mr. Peanut jig. Whenever I hear the word behooves, I always picture the person vacuuming. And that is the image that I have of you right now, giving Bob advice while you were just doing some light housework. That is behoovering. That's what I'm doing right now. It's not a bad metaphor, actually, for Feedback Friday now that I think about it. Now we're cleaning up a lot of dirt, a lot of Bob's dirt.

But with one of those vacuums that have the clear tube so you can see how much dirt you're picking up, you know what I mean? Oh my gosh. Yeah, those straight into my veins. You get that satisfaction of vacuuming something. You see it swirling around rapidly in there and you get you're like, I got it. Anyway, we're probably outing ourselves as a little bit mentally ill right now. We tell Bob that he needs to act right.

Hey, Bob, act right. Get a vac. Get one of those Dyson's and just stare at that for hours until the battery runs out. Yeah, I do think we need to be thoughtful about this kind of thing. Because as Bob is finding out, man, if you catch feelings for a coworker and it's not mute, it gets awkward as hell and could, depending on the workplace, actually become a real problem. Like, how did you think this was good? a go. Did he bother to find out if she's in a happy marriage? Did he try to read the signs there?

It sounds like he just assumed she wasn't because they connected well. Or did Bro just jump straight to while we talked about our mothers. So you must be attracted to me too. And hey, that's all that matters here. It's funny because he's an engineer. So you think he would at least be curious to understand the problem. We're jumping to the solution. Yeah, but they're mechanical engineers, Gabe. It's a different breed, man. I was thinking electrical. My bad. Look, I'm not sure how much this is on you to fit. Yeah, I agree with that. This feels like a bob job to me. It's a bob job for sure. He put his foot in it. He miscalculated.

Fine, it happens. Now it's up to him to say, hey, I'm sorry for misreading the signs. I can see you don't feel the same way. I deeply apologize for putting you in a weird position. I'm going to back up and make sure everything's just a-okay between us at work. Honestly, not the worst thing in the world. It happens. I feel like you can totally move on from this and be okay. He didn't try, he didn't corner you in the break room or anything weird. I mean, I know it's harder for some people than others to just move on from stuff, maybe harder for, maybe for guys in general. A lot of us are just not used to being vulnerable like that at all. And it can be humiliating when that goes wrong.

But when you misstep and it affects a colleague, this is not a random person he met on Tinder where the stakes are nil. And he has to own this and make it right. Yeah, I agree with that. And if he doesn't, then what? Yeah, if he doesn't, then I'd say she either lets it go and keeps her distance and tolerates the awkwardness for a while, which that would probably fade in time, I would hope. Or if things continue being weird and he's just making no effort to repair things or he like keeps trying, she can grab coffee with him and say, look, I'm sorry that our wires got crossed. I'm sorry if I inadvertently sent you a confusing signal. I enjoy being your colleague and friend.

I want to be able to hang with you and Max and all the guys, but I'm married. So are you. And as you know now, I think of you as a friend and I've come to value that friendship. So when you're ready, I'd like to go back to being friends. I like that. Or maybe that's not possible anymore. Or maybe that's not what she wants. And then maybe she just leaves it at.

So I know this was uncomfortable, but nothing has to change in our working relationship. And just leave it at that. I like that. Then she's just speaking for herself and putting the focus back on them as colleagues. And hopefully he'll also finally realize that he needs to be mature so that they can function well at work. But you're asking how to reset professional boundaries after Bob crossed a line. So I guess my question for you is, do you think this relationship requires strict boundaries in order to be safe? Or did Bob get the message? He's just not going to try anything like this again.

Because that's totally possible. You might not even need to say, hey, look, pal, I'm married, we're colleagues. We can only see each other in these places. We can only talk about such and such. And I'm only going to respond to you on teams or whatever. Maybe he's taking a little space when he comes back to work. It'll be awkward. It doesn't have to be messy. But if Bob continues to flirt with you or he keeps looking at you a certain way, or you just get that vibe, that he's having a different experience from you when you're talking, then a boundaries conversation would be in order. And on your end, you can keep being kind,

maybe not quite as kind as before, but polite, pleasant, you can be professional. Don't make things weird. I don't think it's you doing that, by the way, but you can just hang back a little and let things settle. Until he does something egregious, I think that's all that you really need to do. I agree, and that'll also show Bob that you're not going to punish him for this,

which might make it easier for him to apologize and make things right and get back to where you. were. I think that's important, too. Agreed. No need to overcorrect until things proved to be messier than it's a different conversation. Sorry, things went down this way. Like I said before, I'm sorry that women have to worry that being kind is a liability. That just, it sucks. But sadly, this is all part of the dance between the genders. Keep up the great work and welcome to America. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about episodes of the show in general

that's over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. And now, it behooves you to take advantage of the amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Hey, if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable,

I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at Jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If something's not working for you or you can't find something, email us Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're happy to dig up those codes for you.

It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of Feedback Friday. Now we got the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation of the week is the best earplugs I have ever found in my life. They're by a brand called Mighty Plugs. They're not the kind of earplug that looks like a small bullet and that you insert into your ear.

These are the kind of ear plugs that mold to the inside of your ear. like putty. They're made of pure beeswax and organic cotton so they feel good. That makes them also much more secure. They don't fall out during the night. They're also way more comfortable so you can move around and sleep on your side and stuff like that and you're not going to feel them. They apparently have the certified highest noise reduction rating for earplugs. They're also waterproof so you can use them for swimming, surfing, snorkeling, all of that. They're reusable. They are all natural. They're chemical free and each pair lasts up to apparently 35 uses. I think I've gone above that, actually. You can probably get even more out of them if you wanted to. This was another product that I discovered

for Burning Man because it's so loud there and the sound goes all night. It just does not stop. So it's hard to sleep. And a guy I know who goes every year was like, these are the earplugs that you want so you can at least get some rest. So I bought them and they worked so well that I just kept using them. And now I take them everywhere I go when I travel. And this is actually one of the reasons I can stay in a noisy, hostile and still get a good night's sleep. Big fan of this product, mighty plugs, will link to them in the show notes. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I can't start this letter without sharing some love for you both and the podcast. I'm a long-time listener and first-time writer, and I want to thank you for all of the wonderful perspectives this show has given me. I will try to

not talk about how cool y'all are to me too much, but some of this is relevant to my letter today, so if this is being aired, listeners bear with me. I'm glad you said that. Otherwise, I would have been like, oh, God, people must think we're fluffing ourselves so hard right now. The way you guys approach problems with empathy and nuance is something I find incredibly rare for a man. You two are among the few men whose perspective I actually respect and enjoy. I'm writing because I'm terrified that I'm teetering on the edge of losing hope in the rest of your gender entirely. Okay, no pressure. I'm a 25-year-old medical student in the Midwest.

I've overcome a lot to get here. a low-income background, a type-1 diabetes diagnosis, and a mother struggling with severe mental illness. Statistically, I should not be this far, but I continue to surprise myself and am so fulfilled and in love with what I get to do. That is amazing. Wow, well done. Huge deal, by the way, huge. My view of men has been shaped by a vacuum of positive examples. My father committed suicide at the age of 19, when I was just 14. months old. Oh, I'm very sorry to hear that. That is so sad. My mother was 19 and pregnant with my sister, and she was the one who found him. Oh my God, I can't even imagine. Your poor mom. She has never healed from that trauma, and as a result, our house became a revolving door of men who got worse and worse,

from drug addicts to abusers to both in one and many things in between. What a childhood that must have been. That's really tough. I have two sisters who are my entire world, And watching us all grow up in that environment, I realized I don't have a single example of a quote-unquote good man in my life. The few people I can identify are not very close to me. I think of an uncle or two. I see a few times a year. Maybe one of my grandfathers, but his ex-wife, my grandma, has been a lesbian since they're a divorce. So even then, I just have low confidence.

Okay. I don't know why that makes me chuckle a little. I'm just imagining this 88-year-old woman is like, I'm done with men. Time to be gay. Lately, staying informed has turned my skepticism into something stronger and deeper. Between the Epstein files and the normalization of predatory rhetoric, it feels like we're shown what men do when they have unlimited power. To say that I'm angry feels like an understatement, and rightfully so.

I've read studies suggesting one in three college-aged men admit that they would use force to have sex if they knew they could get away with it. Even more horrifying, as someone entering the medical field, I've seen the data showing that homicide is a leading cause of death for pregnant women in the U.S., often outranking medical complications like sepsis or hemorrhage. I don't think I even need to say this, but for the sake of completeness, this is due to intimate partner violence more often than not. Okay, pause, Gabe, you said you looked into this because I don't know about any of this stuff. Yes, so real quick, the one in three college-aged men claim that seems to come from a 2014 study called

denying rape but endorsing forceful intercourse. So that study, which built on earlier studies, found that some men endorsed behaviorally described coercive sex, but then would also deny that they would quote unquote rape someone. So the study was actually about the differences between these men and what might account for this difference. Also, I'm not a researcher, but this seems to be a small non-national college sample. So maybe it would be more accurate to say one study found, not one in three men in general everywhere, for sure. sure feel this way. Got it. Interesting. So not slam dunk proof, but I don't know, still pretty disturbing, man. I'm not sure how we get around that. The claim about the threats to pregnant women,

that is substantially correct. Basically, researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health found that homicide deaths among pregnant women are more prevalent than deaths from hypertensive disorders, hemorrhage, sepsis, and that these homicides are linked to a mix of intimate partner violence and firearms. God, that's news to me, man. I mean, Jen almost killed me when she was but that was because I was, you know, chewing too loud. So it's, it would have been justified. Different. Yeah.

Different. Different. Different. And by the way, that seems to be backed up by a summary in society for maternal fetal medicine of CDC data from 2005 to 2022, which found that homicide and suicide together exceeded any individual medical cause of maternal death. That's 17 years of data. I mean, that's, that says a lot.

Her last point about intimate partner violence, that is directionally correct. but again, maybe it should be worded a little more carefully. It seems that the research out there repeatedly links pregnancy-associated homicide to intimate partner violence, yes. But her claim about more often than not, that might depend on the quality of the data because apparently, and I'm relying on other people's analysis here, but apparently the relationship of the perpetrator to the victim is often missing or inconsistently recorded, and that's a common criticism of this study. I see. So the first statistic, compelling, but maybe not totally representative, definitive. The second point appears to be pretty solid. And so her fear does make a lot of sense.

So she goes on. Now, I know the most common thing to say here is, hey, crazy 20-something extreme feminist, it's not all men. Some of us are good. This is not good enough for me. Nationwide data from NPR and the National Sexual Violence Resource Center indicate that 81% of women report experiencing some form of sexual harassment and or assault in their lifetime. So if not all men are bad, how are almost all women experiencing some level of violence? Okay, it didn't say that, right? It didn't say violence. It said sexual harassment or violence.

I'm not trying to nitpick here. And again, I'm no statistician, but I'm quite sure you know that that doesn't mean that 81% of men out there are monsters. That's 81% of women report that. That's a totally different thing. Or that only 19% of women, for example, have ever met a good guy in their lives. Yeah, that's just not how stats. Also, the men who do this kind of thing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say they do it to more than one person.

But again, Gabe, you fact-checked this or you looked into this. Yeah, so again, really quickly, a widely cited 2018 survey. It was commissioned by Stop Street harassment. It was carried out by UC San Diego. And then it was summarized by the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. This did find that nationwide, 81% of women, and by the way, 43% of men, reported experiencing some form of sexual harassment and or assault in their lifetime. But it might be good to note that the original survey defined sexual harassment and or assault broadly.

And that included verbal harassment, unwanted touching slash groping, flashing, stalking, slash following, cyber harassment, and actual sexual assault. Got it, which many people, including, I imagine our friend here, would say, yeah, that's all harassment slash abuse. anything from being minorly cat-called on the street to, you know, literal physical abuse. I just want to be clear about how the study defined harassment and assault. I don't know how much that number would change if you, for example, left out verbal harassment, which might include, say, being unwontedly hit on at a party or something like that,

or, you know, being sent a suggestive message on social media or something along those lines. I'm speculating a little bit, but I think you know what I'm getting out. Yeah, and that's good to call out because I would say that if it's getting an unsolicited, flirty message on Instagram or whatever, I'm surprised it's not a hundred percent of women having had that at some point in their life. So she continues. As I explore this statistic in my own experience, almost all of the women I know fall into that 81 percent, yet not a single man I have encountered knows a man at fault.

I question which is more likely. Is it just a few men whom apparently no one knows on a rampage making contact with all these women? Or are you all complacent? Complacent? Complacent. I don't know if she meant complicit or complacent. It sounds like I think she probably must have meant complicit, no?

I think so. Or maybe she's saying that we are all complacent as men with the status quo. Of men doing this to women and then just not doing anything or saying anything about it? She must have been complicit, right? Like is it just a few men or are you all doing creepy stuff to some degree or overlooking it? It's an intense letter, man. I haven't done anything wrong, but, well, recently. But somehow I feel like I'm on trial or something.

I don't know. When I was in middle school, the boys created ass-slap Fridays. Every girl wearing leggings was targeted. Not all men participated, but they all knew, watched, and remained complacent. Oh, okay. So maybe she did mean complacent. I'm confused, but I think I understand what she's getting at. They didn't speak up or do anything about it is what she's saying.

And look, I take her point here halfway through my 40s and as the father of a little girl, not that having a daughter should be the only reason I see this clearly, but obviously it makes me more sensitive to it. When I hear about ass slap Fridays in a middle school, my heart sinks. Whereas if this happened at my school when I was 11 or 12, I don't know. I probably would have just shrugged it off. I was a little kid back then, you know? But she's right.

This is a problem. I mean, at the very least, the boys' asses should have been slapped too, you know. I agree. Everybody should have been harassed. Equality. But seriously, I get why this pisses her off. I get why this shapes how women view men and how they view the world. And maybe this is besides the point.

But I also think it's a little unfair to say, not all men participated, but they all watched when we're talking about 12 and 13 year old kids. Literal 12 year middle schoolers, yeah, unless she was referring to like older kids on campus or God forbid the teachers or something. But I, yeah, I doubt she meant that. That would be a whole different problem. Holy moly. I struggle to find any reasoning for this. And my rage blames the patriarchy, which helps. I have to believe that men behave this way because they are also victims. of the corruption. It feels like the patriarchal narrative has failed everyone. Women don't need men for survival anymore, and given the stats on violence, many of us don't even want them. So much to say about these arguments, we could be here all day, but I got to say, the idea that

the patriarchy, which is a word I'd never use, it almost sounds funny coming out of my mouth, that broadly speaking, I know it's a slippery concept, but I think we all know what it means. The point that it's also created some problems for men is a very fair one. She is not entirely wrong. But honestly, I haven't done enough annoying PhDs to meaningfully comment on this topic, really. The thing is, I've always dreamed of being a mother. It's something I've wanted more than anything else. But I question the morality of this desire, let alone whether I will ever be in a safe enough relationship. God forbid I bring a daughter into this mess, and God help me if I have to raise a son. I have two baby cousins, both boys under a year old, and I love them so deeply. This makes me

even sadder about how I feel. I hope that there is something to all this horror that I am missing. Since I value your judgment, I'm asking for a perspective that can give me even a pea-sized bit of hope. Again, you're laying all this at our feet? My God, I'm more nervous to answer this letter than I was about that Buddhist sexual assault letter. Which, by the way, we got some emails about him. A lot of people were like, yeah, that guy was kind of out of his tree, but also a very powerful teacher, and we shouldn't write off the whole organization. So I'm pretty sure we pissed off a lot of by talking about some of that stuff. But anyway, yeah, this is somehow scarier.

But I agree with you. This one's even more intense. Have you stayed quiet when inappropriate comments were made? In my life, almost certainly, yes. I can't think of anything. Certainly not anything horrendous, but I'm sure that it's happened. Lately, though, like in the past 15 years, I can't think of any examples. In fact, my friends are the guys that say, hey, you know what?

I don't really ascribe to that kind of stuff. and I don't think it's helping you either when we hear that at the gym. A lot of guys have thanked me for saying that because they don't actually believe things that they say when they say it too. They're just trying to relate to dudes. So, yeah, I kind of, I would say

I almost kind of police it in a way that's not overly pushy or annoying, in my opinion. Yeah, I can't think of anything in my own life either. I guess I'd have to say the same. I also feel like maybe I'm deluding myself, but I feel like if you don't engage in this stuff yourself, you're just way less likely to be around guys who do. I know they exist.

Of course they do. I use the internet, but I'm not grabbing beers with guys like this or doing a ton of business with them, at least not when they're in this mode. I also think, oh man, this is going to sound like an apology or a hedge. It's not. But I also think we're kind of back to the question of how do we define inappropriate? You know, I remember on my first project, on my first job out of college, I was 21, I guess. The client was in San Diego, so I would drive down from L.A. on Monday morning and I would

drive back Thursday night. And I would often drive with this other guy who was in my class. and he's like, man, Jill is so hot. And Jill was a manager on the project. And she was probably like, I don't know, she must have been at least 30, maybe 35. She wasn't our direct manager, but she was, you know, like a senior person on the team. And I got kind of uncomfortable. And I was like, yeah, no, she's definitely an attractive person because I was nervous to talk about it, even just us boys in the car.

And this guy I was driving with kind of got mad at me for it. Yeah, like, why are you being weird about this? Why are you making it weird? Basically. Yeah. Actually, I think he imitated me. He was like, yes, Jill is very attractive. Just say she's hot, dude. Like, he kind of got angry. Yeah. Why be in such a square, Gabe? Yeah, like now I feel like a creep. Well, I think that's the fear that he felt a little uncomfortable and exposed because you were not

joining in and making it safe for him to talk about that stuff. Which I get, you know, maybe he felt judged by me or like I was trying to be superior, which was not my intention. But also, you know, I got to know this guy and he did not strike me as a creep at all. He was just like talking. For sure. But there's a social pressure baked into these moments that's tricky, right? It is tricky. And thinking back, I guess I didn't want to talk about it because in my mind, I was like, I just met this guy. I don't know if he's going to tell someone else about this conversation and then somehow it gets

back to Jill, whom I like, and then it's weird or it gets misconstrued. So I'm just going to be quiet. Yeah, that is smart. But also, I don't know. Maybe I am a little bit of a square in this way because I guess I was thinking, Jill is cool and she's smart and she's good at this job and she's nice. and I feel weird only talking about how hot she is with a total stranger. So I kind of feel weird only talking about how hot she is with a guy I met like a week ago.

So anyway, the reason I bring this up is, is what that guy said in the car inappropriate? Good question. Well, I feel like we're rehashing the entire 2016 presidential election right now somehow. Is this locker room talk? Is this management consultant carpool talk? Grabbing by the Pricewaterhouse. Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know.

Just like, I'm just trying to understand. Was this guy saying Jill is so hot hurting women or hurting her? My feeling is if this is locker room talk, this is extremely innocuous locker room talk. I don't think it screams patriarchy to be like, man, sometimes Jill makes me nervous in meetings. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah, I agree with that. And I mean, women talk about guys like this too.

So, like, I'm not even sure this is patriarchy. Of course they do. And they're allowed to. Maybe with different implications in the workplace, which again, this is where it gets tricky and I get that. But I'm glad you're digging into this, because our friend is asking if we, we paragon's of healthy masculinity, apparently, if we've ever stayed quiet when inappropriate comments were made, depending on how you define that, you already f***ed up in that car ride, Gabe. I don't know.

Exactly. Was I supposed to turn to this guy and be like, well, guy in my class I just met and whom I also would like to have a decent relationship with? That's not really appropriate talk when it's just us alone in the car. And you should really be thinking about, like, that's also weird and presumptuous. But that's what I'm getting it. I'm just trying to understand. I mean, to be fair, maybe our friend here wouldn't actually consider that inappropriate because Jill wasn't there. I don't know. No, I get it. But I know some people would consider that inappropriate.

Look, saying it at work or like going to Jill at the work dinner and being like, hey, girl. I mean, that's a... Obviously, different story completely. Of course. But now we're into a whole other discussion, which is whether words can be harmful and in what context and how to separate them from actions and personal beliefs and all that. Again, a whole other show, not enough PhDs to qualify me for that. Let's get this back on track, shall we? So she goes on, have you seen a friend or acquaintance with a girl who couldn't consent? No, no. You mean like having sex with a drunk person who's passed out? No, I have not. Yes.

Or forcing them to do something. No. No, definitely not. That's insane to me. Never, myself. Has it happened in my environment and I didn't know about it? It's possible. I worked on Wall Street in the early 2000s.

I'm sure some coaked up lawyer crossed a line with a woman at drinks after work or something. I mean, people were hooking up in our class. It happens all the time. You know, I was doing the dating coach thing for a few years. Did I go to bars in L.A. and New York where creepy guys got handsy with women? Definitely. I'm sure. I'm sure that that's happened.

But I can't imagine associating with somebody who I knew was doing things like that. No. How do you two, as men, reconcile these dark realities? Is there a path toward trusting men again when the data and my own history tell me that it's a losing game? Thank you for being the exception to my rule. signed, Salvaging Hope for Your Gender after these numbers have basically rendered all men out there as offenders.

Ooh, okay. Yeah, easy-peasy. I thought we would just end on a real light one today. Yeah, definitely not thinking about how our response is going to live on in the transcripts for the rest of time. Try not to be creepy, Papa. Well, the only thing creepy so far

is you calling me Papa all the time on this podcast. Fair point. Yeah, so first of all, I am so sorry to hear about this childhood you had. I mean, the details you shared about your dad, your mom and her gross boyfriends after he died, how it affected you and your sisters. It's so extremely sad and painful. It makes me want to give you just such a big hug. It's complicated, too, because your mom sounds like, well, it's just a complicated person, and my heart goes out to you and your sisters for just all of that. No child should have to deal with that. And we've already gone pretty hard in the paint here,

so let me try to get right to it. You asked before, have I stayed quiet when inappropriate comments were made. Again, it depends on what you mean by inappropriate. If you're talking about sitting at a table and a guy comments on a woman's appearance in a more than innocent or passing way, yeah, I've probably heard that and stayed quiet, especially if it was at work when I was a 26-year-old lawyer and the person saying it was like a seventh-year-associate. And sometimes words are just words. Now, if a guy around me ever said, you know, I'd love to go assault that woman later when she's drunk. I mean, that's a different story. I've never, by the way, actually heard a man say that. And if I did, I would absolutely be like, hold up what, probably call the police.

I don't know. But I've never looked the other way while a guy I knew was harming a woman. No. Yeah. Again, me either. Except for this one time, I did hear Jordan chewing really loudly around John. Oh, yeah. Well, that was pretty harmful.

But no, nothing like this, no. I can think of counter examples. And, of course, like, oh, of course you could think of examples where you did the right thing. And these probably stick out for other reasons. But speaking of coked up lawyers, me and my law firm buddies went to Vegas for a bachelor party for one of my boys. And now that we can actually afford it and be responsible, we rented a cabana at a pool party. And it was awesome.

You know, I've never really been able to do that when I was younger. Obviously, I had to mooch off other people. And I remember my thing, since I worked security is essentially a kid at 1718. I always take care of the cops because there's always cops in the venue. And you find out who the cops are because if you need anything or anything happens, on your side or you know where they are. So I would go out and I'd see the cops and I'd bring them water. We had unlimited water

and Red Bull and stuff. So I'd bring these guys like Red Bulls, water, stuff that they can drink on the job. And I would talk to them and just essentially get to know them and let them use the bathroom that was in our cabana because we had that dope one that had a bathroom in it. And I remember seeing this Asian girl who had a tiara on and like a sash

that said something like just married or getting married or bride or bachelorette, whatever. it said, I can't remember. And she was just getting drunker and drunker and drunker and her friends were just whiling out. And they were really fun to watch because they were so hammered and they were having a ton of fun. And then I remember seeing her alone. And I thought like, that's weird. Her friends just left her. And she was stumbling at this point. And I was like, oh, that's not good. This is ugly. I hope she's leaving soon. And there was the guys in the cabana next to us and they had their curtain open. And I remember going out and talking to the cops. And I saw one of the guys be like,

come here and he grabbed her and she fell onto him and then he like turned over and pinned her down. And I remember going up and being like, hey dude, not cool. And he goes, it's fine. It's my girlfriend. And I was like, no, it isn't, dude. She's at a bachelorette party. She's still wearing the sash. And he was like, dude, screw off. So I went and got the cops because I was like, you're not sexually assaulting this girl who's getting married because she's drunk and alone. I'm just not letting this happen. And the cops went over there and they were like, no. No, sir. And they escorted her out.

And that guy was really pissed off. And I was like, wow, you're just a rapist hanging out at this pool party. Like, you were just going to rape her. Or at least do something wildly inappropriate. Or do something, yeah, where she couldn't, she didn't have all of her faculties. So she couldn't properly understand. Yeah. And I know some people are probably thinking, oh, it's a pool party.

There's tons of people around. When you're in a cabana, you can close your curtains. And then, like, if history has shown me anything, it's that you can be sexually assaulted in front of hundreds of people. and they basically don't know what's going on or don't care or don't want to interfere. But no, that was not happening on my watch. And I was three sheets to the wind. I was hammered.

But I was just like, no, I can still see that this is wrong. And my lawyer buddies were like, hey, what happened there? And I was like, dude, that guy was going to, he was like assaulting her. And they were like, yeah, that's what it looked like. So all of us sort of like middle-aged past our prime guys, that guy, he's lucky the cops got him because Kerwin's from Harlem. and Keith's from L.A., and we were just not having any of that. I mean, the rest of us were like Jewish nerds, but like we were, that guy was about to get his ass just totally handed to him.

So, yeah, he's lucky the cops intervened. But that was scary. It was scary to watch a guy just think that that's okay. So that is definitely out there. There's guys that are just totally fine with this. Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's a crazy story.

I'm so glad you were looking out and intervened. She was really freaking lucky. What, I'm still to this day pissed off at her. friends. It's been like eight years. I'm still pissed off at her friends for just bouncing and leaving her there. What, how did that happen? What's going on here? But also, a woman should sort of be allowed to hang out at a place in public during the day and not get raped. I mean, hot take, right? I guess the only way I can reconcile these dark realities is by acknowledging that all people contain good and bad in them. And I think it's clear that men carry the unique burden of suffering alone

and being violent for some reason of wanting to conquer and attain power and all these things that put them in situations to create harm or create excuses to cause harm, especially to women, sadly. And I think that's pretty self-evident. Whether it's biology or psychology or culture, again, I'm not qualified to say I'm sure they all play a role. And I know a lot of women just hate this phrase. But look, still not all men, right?

Not all men, clearly. And so to address your other point about the 81% statistic, putting aside any questions about the methodology and how the researchers define these terms, those studies are deeply concerning no matter what, but I'm also not convinced that they automatically confirm the larger worldview that you seem to hold. And I completely understand why you're struggling with it. And I'm also not sure that it's the full story. Man, who very well put, Jordan. That is a crazy story, and I think your point is spot on. I share your view. It's interesting. There are kind of two ways to approach her questions, right? One is more logical and scientific, which is important. The other is through the lens of her personal history, which I know she's already onto. I think it's fair to say that she might be right about a lot of these statistics. She is right. There is no denying it. The picture, when it comes to this gender stuff, can be very bleak. But the meaning that she is making of that picture and how it hits her, the attitude toward life and other people that it creates, not just intellectually, but emotionally. That is a whole other question. She has shared some very difficult facts about her childhood, very difficult. You could argue that her mother's story, her entire childhood, reflects the grim reality of these statistics. You could also argue that they conditioned her to be particularly wary of men, to be always on the lookout for abuse, mistreatment,

disappointment, right? To be particularly affected by the behavior of bad men. And to respond to studies like the ones that she mentioned in an especially sensitive way. I think she even said that her personal life experience is what led her to look into all these studies, which is interesting. And all of that makes sense. This is for good reason. But she's going further than that. She's saying, I don't know if I could bring a daughter into a world where men behave this way. I don't know if I could raise a son. Presumably she means knowing that he might be capable of this kind of thing. I thought she meant more like, I don't know if I could love a child who's part of a gender that has let me down so profoundly. I don't know.

know. I just took it that way. Maybe both, actually. But what I'm getting at is I'm not sure we can talk about her position on all of this without talking about this trauma. I agree. And I understand her rage. I understand her fear. She's not crazy. And it breaks my heart. But the force of this data in her life, the attitudes it seems to be creating, that it's just got to be informed by her own experiences, right? And again, I don't think this is entirely news to her, right? She understands that her childhood gave her a certain lens on all of this. And again, let hurt to become very interested in this topic. But maybe it's hard to appreciate how powerful that lens is sometimes. Because look, let's grant that you are 100% right about all of this. The stats are real. Your experience confirms it. Most

men are dangerous. Most women are vulnerable and hurt. I think you know that you alone are not going to change that overnight. The last few years have shown us that, you know, these big social movements around this topic are incredibly powerful. But they also have a, obviously very real limitations. What you can control is everything within your sphere, right? How you educate your potential future daughter to stay safe, empower herself, pick good partners, how you educate your potential future son to treat women well, manage his feelings, do his part to protect other people, how you respond to the people in your life, your friends and your family, even the patients you meet through your work,

how you show up for anyone in your life who has experienced this kind of thing. And maybe most importantly, how you make sense of your own story and how you address this trauma and interrogate the conclusions that you draw from all of this based on the things that you have been through. Also, how you make sure you yourself pick a safe partner, which I know is one of your concerns. That, at the end of the day, is probably all you can do. And that's not nothing. No, for most of us, all we can do is take care of our small sphere and trust that if we do that, we will be helping the world and hopefully, hopefully contributing to some kind of solution. But really my point is, yes, there is clearly a very big problem out there. There is also a very painful wound in here, in you. And I could be wrong,

but it sounds like they are very much wrapped up in each other. So if hope is really what you're looking for, then my feeling is your personal history is going to have to be a big part of the equation. And I don't know what kind of work you've done around this childhood stuff. But I do wonder if your feelings about men and the larger world would start to shift or at least take on some new shades if you approached your past in a new way and hopefully healed some of this stuff and created some new meanings out of it. Other meanings besides men are terrible and I want nothing to do with them. Could not agree more, Gabe. And one of the best arguments in favor of that is look at her mom, right? Yeah, that's a good point. Both her parents, really. She didn't tell us much about her mom

aside from the fact that she had children quite young and she has severe mental illness. She said her mom never healed from the trauma of her husband committing suicide. But I'm going to assume that she had some stuff going on before that happened. I mean, why else do you invite a string of drug addicts and abusers into your home with two young daughters? It's tragic. And her dad, God knows what he was dealing with, but he was obviously in a lot of pain. So, like, how would their childhood have been different if mom and dad had looked at some of

this stuff? We can't know, of course, but her undeniably grim view of men, it was born in that environment because of parents who didn't or couldn't do precisely the work that you're talking about, Gabe. So our friend might have grown up to be, how did she put it, a crazy 20-something extreme feminist, no matter what? And you could argue that the state of our culture demands that people be a little crazy, a little extreme in order to bring about change.

Fine. But these stats, which are objectively upsetting, they probably wouldn't produce as intense and militant a stance in her if she didn't live through a bunch of this stuff. Well said, and the militants of the stance is part of what makes me go, hmm, have we really looked at all of this? because it's just so monolithic and so passionate. Also, I don't know if there's a more effective way or a more beautiful way to make good use of your rage and your fear

than to channel it into being the best possible parent. You have an opportunity here to say, okay, I'm enraged. So rage in service of what? I'm afraid, understandably. So fear in service of what? How can I use these feelings to be a better parent, a better friend, and a better doctor?

If it's true that you want kids more than anything else, then that's one huge way to answer that question. question. And I do wonder if that would help transmute some of those feelings as well. It's a really good point, Jordan. And maybe that's part of the healing, you know. I'm just really struck by this massive conflict that she's in. She wants kids more than anything else, but she doesn't know if she will ever be in a safe enough relationship to have them, which I just want to reiterate is at least partly under her control, because there are men out there who do not do this stuff, but also she's afraid of having either a boy or a girl. It's just such a tough place to be.

She's really tied up in knots there, isn't she? So my gut is telling me that this conflict is in part a reflection of, first of all, yes, this trauma, but also maybe some under explored beliefs. One way to cut through all of that, I don't know if this is going to mean something to her, but I'll just put it out there. Her fear of having a daughter, I think to her that feels like fear about what might happen to her daughter when she grows up, right? But it might be more accurate to say that that fear is the fear of having to be a mother

who brings a girl into this highly imperfect world, who has to bear the anxiety of knowing that she might encounter some difficult experiences in her life, including but not limited to those with men, and who might have to be there for her daughter through some painful experiences. Hopefully not, but it could happen. And her fear of having a son, like we said, she seems to be referring to her fear of having to raise a boy who might grow up to maybe mistreat women in some way or who just represents this gender who has caused her a lot of pain. But similarly, I wonder if what she's really saying is, I'm afraid of having to be a mother

who will have to acknowledge the light and the dark in her son, and who will have to have some vulnerable and maybe uncomfortable conversations with him about this topic, who will have to have faith that she can love this child, even if he belongs to this gender that has done her wrong in a lot of ways, and even if he contains certain impulses or capacities that she finds scary or dangerous or off-putting. So my point is, it might help her to get clear on which he's actually afraid of really, and then maybe she can work on that.

And if she wants to resolve this conflict, she's going to have to really unpack it. So one element of that is clearly her childhood. Another is these more philosophical positions about men and women. Another is how she works with her feelings in general, including the struggle to hold her own feelings despite these intellectual positions. For example, trusting that if she can love her boy cousins this deeply,

she can love her own son too, no matter what the data says. And by the way, there's no reason that that love can't grow even stronger by acknowledging the power and the responsibilities of her potential future son's gender, because those things don't automatically make a boy bad, and I just want to call that out too. Could not agree more. That, to me, is the most fruitful path towards trusting men again. The data in your own history tell you it's a dangerous game.

I totally get that. I'm not minimizing any of that. But alongside that, we can also make room for what about your choices? What about your personality? your outlook, the way you relate to men, what about the experiences you can choose to generate from this point forward? You said you're looking for hope, I appreciate that,

that tells me that there's a part of you that still believes in the potential in men, and if you're going to find the right one, and I believe you can, you're going to have to be able to clock the bad ones and spot the good ones, you're going to have to be appropriately guarded and open to the good in the men that you meet.

That, in my view, is your work, alongside all of these incredible things you've done with your life, which is extraordinary. So I hope you get to do that, my friend. And hey, if it doesn't work out, you can also just become a gay old lady like your grandma, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Jacob Ward on AI and Decisionmaking. Lou Velosie and our Skeptical Sunday on Zinn, if he haven't done so yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing, build that same thing for free in our six-minute networking course. The course is not schmoozy. It's very practical. You can find it on the think-ifick platform at six-minute networking.com. Dig the well before you get thirsty folks, build relationships before you need them.

Show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. The show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadasidlaskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

When a government bans words, people turn language into code. LaWai 86 reveals how Chinese citizens hide dissent in memes, emojis, and mythical creatures, and how AI is now learning to crack those codes. We have to understand that China is an absolute totalitarian dictatorship. So these words to get around censorship are very necessary. And I want to say the punishments before we get into this to understand what Chinese people face in terms of trying to express themselves. If you spread rumors, you can get three years in prison.

The second level of this is picking quarrels, making people have a debate or a discussion about something online. And if the government decides that you're having a discussion about something they don't want you to talk about, that gets you five years in prison. And then you have inciting subversion. And in China, that is absolutely positively the worst thing you can do. I mean, to the Chinese government, that's like treason almost. So they can get you up to 15 years in prison. And people do face these jail times just for stuff they post online.

So keep that in mind when we try to decode some of this language. People are literally risking their freedom and lives to post these things and get their worries out there into the world. to drink tea means you actually go to the police station because the tradition is if you go into any sort of Chinese building or something you're offered some tea or hot water in a cup. Recently, the way of talking about the current economic situation in China has gotten people arrested. Talk egg prices.

If you talk about specifically just eggs, oh, egg prices are really high right now. That's like how to express discontent that life is getting too uncomfortable. Talking about the leader is so off limits. It's not even funny. I mean, that's where you get the 15 years to actually just disappearing. People that do bring up or ask the leader to step down, that is the worst thing you can do in China, period.

Hear how this censorship cat and mouse game is getting darker on episode 1299 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it? That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day.

You'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people always in a way that keeps you hooked. Not sure where to jump in? Start with these favorites. The eruption of Crackatoa, Nature's Fury, in one of the deadliest volcanic events ever recorded. Or the spice trade, how a handful of spices changed the course of global history.

If you want to make learning effortless and fun, check out everything everywhere daily. It's quick, fascinating, and a perfect way to stay curious. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.