The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1356: Tipflation | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: July 12, 2026

We've hit peak tip fatigue. Michael Regilio is here to explain how a century of tipping led us here — and how it can be remedied — on Skeptical Sunday!Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by skeptic, comedian, and podcaster Michael Regilio!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1356On This Week's Skeptical Sunday:Tipping wasn't born of kindness — it was born of swagger. In Tudor England, the wealthy pressed coins on servants to broadcast their status, a little "I'm above you" rendered in currency. From day one, the gratuity signaled hierarchy, not good service.After the Civil War, employers dodged paying newly freed Black workers by letting customers "tip" instead. Pullman porters lived almost entirely on gratuities. Tipping became a tidy loophole for keeping labor nearly free.The federal tipped minimum wage is $2.13 an hour, frozen since 1996. Servers can take home paychecks reading zero dollars, the tips quietly doing all the heavy lifting the law politely declines to.By retiring the old 15% option and anchoring you at 18-22-25% during the on-screen payment process, it nudges your brain toward "generous" before the food even exists. It's behavioral economics, weaponized into a swivel screen that watches you decide.Nobody actually likes this system, which makes it ripe for change. Europe proves restaurants flourish without it. So aim your energy at fair-wage policies rather than the person holding the iPad — they didn't build this maze, they're just surviving it.Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know!Connect with Michael Regilio at Twitter, Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, and YouTube, and check out War Bar, his comedy special!And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: Quince: Free shipping & 365-day returns: quince.com/jordanSimpliSafe: 50% off + 1st month free: simplisafe.com/jordanZipRecruiter: Learn more at ziprecruiter.com/jordanConciergeMD: 20% off all services/memberships: conciergemdla.com/jordan, code JORDANSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host comedian and skeptic Michael Regelio. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the story of secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays, though, it's skeptical Sunday. A rotating guest co-host and I

break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic, such as tipping, acupuncture, astrology, diet pills, self-help cults, bottled water, and more. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of some of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, disinformation,

junk science, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com. slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Now tell me if this sounds familiar. You walk up to a counter, you order some food, the person taps the order into an iPad and then turns around and says, it's going to just ask you a quick question and you think, oh, it's going to ask me a question. This inanimate iPad suddenly developed curiosity. What could it possibly want to know that you, the human being standing right here who just took my order, can't explain. You took my

order, you're looking at me expectantly, but now we've got to consult the iPad. What's going on here. All right, let's see the question. Ah, okay. It wants to know if I would like to tip you. For what? You haven't made the food. I haven't gotten the food. We're both standing here, staring at each other. So the question isn't would I like to tip. The question is, can I predict the future? I'm sensing missing utensils, mild disappointment. And if you're one of the growing number of Americans also getting fed up with this phenomenon, you might be asking yourself, how did we get here? Why do I have to tip everyone, seemingly? And how is it acceptable that we tip before the service is even complete, sometimes even before it begins?

And more importantly, why do we even tip at all? Today, skeptic, comedian, and most importantly, former waiter, Michael Rogelio, is here to tell us 100% of what he's learned about that 15 to 25% that we're asked to part with in seemingly every dang transaction in America. Man, I could really relate to that, turning the iPad towards you. It's getting kind of crazy everywhere you go. Someone's shoving an iPad at you. And I think most people can relate to that.

Because what you're describing is called tip fatigue. And people are getting fed up with that iPad being shoved in their face everywhere they go. And let's be clear here that iPad is far more insidious than the old tip jar. After all, just a couple crumpled bills tossed into a jar or tucked to an old school billful leaves a little mystery. You don't have that waiter immediately knowing and judging what you left. but the iPad, oh, the all-telling iPad, the iPad knows all. Yeah, so the problem that I have with this, I feel that pressure sometimes, of course, and I know this is by design, right?

They want you to feel like you have to tip, hey, what do you mean? You're going to type in custom and leave $1, even though the default one is 25% or 30% for coffee. Even me who's sitting here on this topic and requested a skeptical Sunday about this specifically because I hate tipflation, the fact that we're seeing tipping everywhere, and it's going up everywhere, I still feel that pressure like, oh, okay, I'm going to click skip because all you did was take my order and there's no table service and I'm leaving and it's a takeout thing and blah, blah, blah, it's a cup of coffee. But I still hope that you don't notice because I don't want to look like a dick,

but then I realize I'm not actually a dick for not tipping for something that doesn't require a tip. I don't know. I'm torn in some ways because I feel for the person behind the counter, but also why is it my job to pay the salary of the employee if I'm not actually getting any sort of specific service from that person. I assume we're getting into all this, but now this is usually the part of the episode where we got to tell people, don't blame the server, blame the system, because that's how I feel about it. Taking it out on the person in front of you is definitely not the move.

Yeah, sure. And if I were one of those erudite pedantic researcher types, that would be the opening message. But hey, like you said at the beginning, I've got 15 years of waiting tables under my belt. And I can tell you that the attitude coming from some of the people pushing the iPad at you, that's part of the problem too. And that pressure that comes from them standing there watching you, well, that's exactly what people are getting fed up with. And we're just getting fed up with tipping. Yeah, it's actually a pretty good, well, have I noticed or have I imputed a little snarkiness from the iPad pushers? Sometimes they're totally fine. And I've even had people say, don't worry about it, whatever, when they flip it over. And I'm like, oh, good, we're on the same page where this is

fricking awkward, and we both hate this part. But another thing is just how ubiquitous it's become. I've literally been ordering stuff online, on the internet, and then I get asked if I want to leave a tip for the person who packs the order. Come on, man. Oh, man. It actually gets far worse than that. There's now cappuccino making robots that they have at certain coffee shops that will ask you for a tip. Yeah, I don't tip robots. And since we've apparently reached the point where robots are asking you for tips, it's probably a good time. to ask how the heck we even got here. How did our culture become obsessed with tipping?

It's one of, I have friends from all over the place, right? And they'll come visit California and they'll go, explain tipping to me. And it's like, and then I have to go and just say 15% is fine, but some places you don't have to tip and then I have to like give them weird rules of thumb. If I'm not sitting there, I don't tip, except if it's blah, blah, but what about haircuts?

And there's all these weird exceptions. Anyway, tell me how this mess, How did we get here? Tipping probably began in Tudor England. Guests staying at large private homes, basically mansions would leave small sums of money for the servants who took care of them during their stay. And it really wasn't about generosity. It was kind of about status. Like, I'm above you, you're below me. Here's a few coins to show how benevolent I am. So from the very beginning, tipping wasn't about good service. It was about signaling hierarchy. And so at that time, wealthy Americans would travel to Europe. They saw this and thought, Oh, this is how rich people act, and they brought the practice back to America.

Okay. My parents, as a kid, I remember my dad leaving a couple of bucks at the end of the trip just on the dresser, the nightstand for the hotel maids, the cleaning staff. I don't know if anybody does that anymore. I don't do that. I don't think. I've done it by accident. But I don't know anybody in my generation who tips the maids at hotels, at least not that I know. Actually, if you're listening to this and you still do that, please tell me, because I don't want to be inadvertently.

stiffing the hotel staff if I'm actually supposed to do that. But you would think they would make it abundantly clear if they were waiting on a tip. They are making it abundantly clear. When I was researching this episode, there are certain hotels. The people that clean the room will leave an envelope for you to put the tip in, like making it very clear. It'll even have like a note saying, hi, my name is Sally. I clean the room. Here's a little gratuity envelope should you choose. Wow. I am staying either at the wrong hotels or the right hotels, because I don't think I've ever seen that. It's also very possible that I've completely ignored that multiple times because I'm not observant at all. But you'd think my wife would have cut on to that too because she

actually notices stuff like that. I did take a cruise and there was a million envelopes at the end. And there was mandatory gratuity that they were automatically going to charge you, which I thought was weird, like maybe just include that in the price. Oh, but then the price is higher and they can't trick you at the end by showing you what you owe all of the people that have worked with you. Anyway, this is one gripe among many. So let's be frank. Sometimes the tipping thing is still about status. I've certainly seen dude bros on dates making a big deal about a supposedly big tip they're going to leave for a server on a date. Oh, man, I did not want this episode to be just me telling a bunch of stories about my days of waiting tables.

But now I have to tell a story that you mentioned that because I was waiting tables in Hollywood like 20 years ago. And this guy came in on a first date and he was making a very big deal about how cool. he was and what a big spender he was trying to impress this woman. And at the end of the meal, he made a huge show of the fact that he was leaving me a hundred dollars. I'm going to leave this guy a hundred dollars. What do you think of that, buddy? You like that? Oh, yeah, sure. A hundred bucks sounds good, man. That is cringy. Oh, it gets even worse because then they went out to wait for the car at the valet and he snuck back in, pretended he had to use the bathroom, grabbed me and was like, hey, dude, can I get that hundred bucks back? No way. Wow. Wow.

He was like, come on, bro, one bro to another. I was just trying to press this woman. I don't have a hundred bucks to give you. Tell you what, keep 20. Wow, that is so messed up. I'd like to think I'd be quick enough on my feet to say something like, dang, you know, we pool tips here and I already put it into the box and the box is locked. I can't get it. Sorry, man.

Or better. Sure, yeah, I put it in my bag in the back. I'll tell you what, I'll run it out to you in a minute. And then you just go back out there to the girl directly, hand it to her and say, here's the money back that your guy friend ran in to ask for. Can you give it to him? Somebody's not getting a second date or any nooky that night for sure. That is so messed up. What a weird thing to do. For what, I wish you were there at the time to have given me that advice because I love the idea of bringing it out to the woman and ruining his chances at

a second date. But yeah, let me tell you something. Tipping in general is messed up. In fact, the next historical chapter of tipping in America isn't just messed up. It's freaking racist. Tipping is racist? I mean, it did take off after the Civil War and took off in the South. So I hate to assume, but that timing could be a little suss. Yeah, actually, you nailed it. And it is kind of gross when you think about it because it was one of several ways that America tried to maintain slavery. So that's interesting.

And I've heard people express that notion, but usually they're talking about the 13th Amendment. Basically made it legal to have slavery as long as you first arrested a formerly enslaved person on trumped up charges through them in jail. And then they were kind of right back. where they started, forced into performing labor. I'm not sure I've heard that tipping was a way of extending slavery, though. I haven't heard a frame like that. Okay, perhaps that's just my progressive framing. But look, after the Civil War, as previously enslaved people were joining the workforce, employers did look for a way to not pay them like anything, free labor. That's called slavery, I think. Yeah. But okay, continue. Yeah. A whole new class of employees was born,

particularly in the South. So that's where this really started. Employers pay. them little to nothing in exchange they were allowed to solicit tips from customers. There was, of course, the culture of tenant farmers who were not paid and still beholden to the plantation owner. So this was a whole thing that was going on in the South where they were legally not allowed to have slaves anymore, but were desperately looking for a way to maintain this social hierarchy that they had built an entire economy on. Yeah, you know what this reminds me of? You might have heard of this. There's restaurants where they don't have a liquor license,

but for some reason, it depends on the state. You can just bring booze in from outside, and they're like, whatever. You don't what I talk about? Oh, of course. Yeah. But then they charge you for the booze that you paid for. It's like a corkage fee,

even though you're drinking a 40 of malt liquor with your cheese steak or something. Yeah, you can bring it in, and they limit it and they charge you for it, but they're not selling you the alcohol, so it's totally fine somehow. Yeah, there's a lot of workarounds in, particularly the 21st century American economy.

And this was one of the workarounds in the 19th century economy. In fact, one example of people that pretty much started living exclusively off tips was the Pullman Porters. Have you heard about them? I feel that those are the guys, the Pullman Porter's, they worked on trains, right? So they were black men who assisted essentially wealthy white people as they traveled the country, right? Like a Butler situation on a train? Yeah, it kind of was. So the guy that started this was George Pullman.

And he was an engineer from Chicago, and basically he noticed that trains were incredibly noisy, crowded, uncomfortable. So he started the Pullman Car Company, and these were total luxury cars, sleeper cars, in fact, with all the amenities like a nice hotel. So it's like first class on an airplane, probably more cozy than that, more comfy. These were far more extravagant than first class on an airplane, mostly because of the Pullman porters who were basically servants to the passengers. They helped them with their bags, made their beds, took care of their kids, answered, when a passenger just rang a bell, and they were basically totally unpaid. There was a very small salary, but once you factor in that they had to pay for their own uniforms and all the other expenses that came with the job, they lived completely off of the tip. And they weren't

the only ones. Like I said, these jobs unfortunately went to almost entirely formerly enslaved people. In fact, I came across this and it's so gross. And it's his words, not mine. But George Pullman only wanted formerly enslaved men to be his Pullman porters, because, in more than a slightly racist way, he thought they had the right attitude. Oh, my God. That's pretty gross. Yikes. But he wasn't the only one.

A number of jobs held by black workers had a similar pay structure. And to one final note on the racist nature of tipping at the time, I found an article by this journalist named John Speed. And he kind of summed it all up that this was a hierarchy. and it was basically a racist system because he argued that he was starting to come across white people who were asking for tips. And he said he was embarrassed

to have to tip white people because it debased them. And he didn't like doing it. So clearly tipping was a way of reinforcing class structures and debasing people. Yeah, okay, a douchebag. But I hate that I'm agreeing with some of his ideas. It does sort of debase people

and reinforce class structures. I think I have a problem with it that's a little broader than the problem he had with it with only tipping white people. But, okay, so tipping was becoming a thing nationally, though, not just in the South, or was this only in the South? No, it was growing.

It was becoming national at that point. In addition to the Pullman Porter's, people were just getting used to having to tip waiters, waitresses. So not surprisingly, okay. Yeah, domestic workers, carriage drivers, barbers. You know, it's funny. That's like the same people we tip now. I don't see barista in there.

But yeah, domestic workers, carriage drives. So a taxi driver, a barber, somebody who cleans the hotel or your home, servers, porters. It's expanded, but it's still the same categories of folks. We're talking about people who weren't used to tipping ever. And so suddenly they were having to tip a lot of people. And so then, like now, it was really starting to piss people off. In fact, I'd say that people liked it even less back then than they do now. So that's almost hard to believe, since I feel like this is at a breaking point. Most people I know are questioning modern tipping culture. Yeah, back then they actually passed laws against it. In six states, it was literally illegal to tip. So clearly they had a big

problem with tipping. Can we bring those laws back, please? My goodness. Yeah, people were getting really pissed. In fact, none other than essayist and philosopher Ralph Waldo Emerson was one of the first to publicly voice anti-tipping sentiments. He saw tipping as anti-democratic. He believed that when two people got together to transact business, they should be equals. But tipping turned it into a mini hierarchy, with the tip worker becoming subservient to the tipper. He saw it as social bribery. He compared it to a relationship between lords and servants. I'm not sure I agree. So I've never been to a restaurant and thought I felt like a lord, but I'm also not an essayist and philosopher. I do feel like there's an element, though, of hierarchy that I don't like. And I do like to transact

with somebody as an equal, I think, it's just more comfortable that way. It is weird to me that somebody has to be polite and they've got to do what I want or they can't they've got a smile right. They can't be in a bad mood. And I don't know. I just, I don't like any of this. I don't like any of the imbalance that it creates initially. Can we just have enough respect for somebody making our coffee to not have them rely on these things?

And I think a lot of people don't realize that they are relying on these. And I'm assuming we'll get into that because it's not just a bonus for these people. They have to have the tip or they're not making. They have to have the tip. And it's interesting, you put it that way because you could say that, hey, everyone at their job has to be polite to the customers. It's called customer service. But everybody knows there's a difference between the tipped worker, particularly the waiter or waitress who's making all their money to pay their rent off of tips and the person that works at the department store. You sense it.

There is something slightly more, I don't know, subservient. It does feel like the dance for me. Like, anything I want, you have to do because I'm controlling your pay. So Emerson actually brought up some really good points, which was that the quality of service would now be selective based on how you tipped. And that's actually something that I think gets lost a lot of times as we debate tipping in the modern era, which is, what about the terrible tipper? Take my word for it.

The staff is going to give them the shaft every time. Trust me. So what kind of business model are we talking about where some of your customers are actually intentionally treated worse than others? Because that comes along with the whole tipping culture too. Yeah. Wow. Is it really that bad? If somebody's a notoriously bad tip or the staff just treats them like crap?

Oh, yeah. So I worked at, they have some good food. Perhaps you'd like to pop in the mustard seed cafe on Hillhurst Avenue in Los Angeles, California. And next door for a number of years was the mission of Los Angeles. Phelis, which was a Scientology recruitment center. Oh, my gosh. And I don't know what it was, but for some reason, they had a problem with tipping. Maybe it was just those people.

Maybe it's not a culturally Scientology thing. But when the Scientologist came in, yeah, they got the worst table. And we didn't really pay that much attention to them and their needs or their wants because we knew at the end of the meal it was going to be garbage. There would be 10 of them. and they'd run up a multi-hundred dollar check, and it would be five bucks at the end. So yeah, we intentionally treated them poorly.

That's not much of a business model. And then conversely, the people who are great tippers get much better service where you're sitting next to a table and you don't understand why the server keeps going back to them and they're getting everything and they're ignoring you because they're the good tipper and you're the terrible tipper. It's a crazy business model where it's not equal for everybody. And while that iPad is emotionally waterboarding you into tipping 25% for a muffin you haven't even received yet, here's someone who actually earned their cut.

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Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. So it is interesting that people in America didn't want a tip because they thought it represented the hierarchy of Europe. but today America is the land of the tip and in Europe, they don't really tip at all that I've found when I live there. I mean, yeah, no, it's a totally different culture and we're going to get into that. But as you can see from our history so far, that America didn't just jump into tipping willy-nilly. Some people were fighting it the whole way. In fact, this is so interesting.

People were so anti-tipping at that time that some hotels created something called a servidor, which was like an interior door in hotel rooms that made it so you, you never had to see the person giving you service. So you didn't feel pressure to tip them. And hotels would advertise, hey, we have these server doors. So when people bring you food to your room or services or bring you your suit pressed or whatever it is that they do at the hotel, they'll put it through this interior door and then you'll take it into the room and you'll never actually have to see them so you don't

feel pressure to tip. This was a selling point at hotels. So in order to not replicate the social hierarchy of Europe, hotels made it so their customers didn't even have to see or interact. with the servants at all. And that sounds a little bit like a lord. Come on, man. That's crazy.

Yeah. Look, people were seriously anti-tipping. In 1908, William Howard Taft literally made it part of his campaign. He would brag. This was one of his talking points on the campaign trail that I don't tip my barber. Wow. So that was his bows. That's also cringy.

Yeah. American history is full of cringe. But, yeah, this was Taff's way of saying he was putting his foot down on tipping culture. and he was echoing something a lot of people were feeling. In the last election, both candidates literally ran on no tax on tips. So back in 1908, Taft was running on just no tips. That's my how times have changed. Yeah.

Look, back then, people saw it as a shakedown. They complained that everywhere you went, you had to pay for things twice, once for the food and then for the service. In fact, in 1916, a popular book called The Itching Palm captured that sentiment. It was essentially one long diatribe against tipping. Not going to lie that. It is a pretty cool title for a book about tipping. The Itching Palm. Yeah, it sounds like an Agatha Christie novel to me, The Itching Palm. But in reality, the author was a guy by the name William R. Scott, and he argued that tipping wasn't optional, but

coerced. People felt social pressure to always tip, whether the service was good or not. Yeah, he's kind of got a point there. Yeah, again, he said the same thing. He said it to base his workers, forcing them into subservient flattery rather than just being professional. It sounds like what Ralph Waldo Emerson was saying. I just, I can't say I disagree with that at all. I just, I really agree with all of this centuries old criticism on tipping. Yeah, look, I've been both. I've been the waiter begging. It did feel like begging for something from the customer of my employer. Like that was, it felt that was the tradeoff. You can come in and beg my customers for money. And so I've been that. But I've also been the customer.

And so I will put in a little one defense of the system that a good server can make your day and a bad server can wreck it. And it is nice to know that if you go to a restaurant very often, it's a place where they treat you really nice. Again, if you've never been there before or you've been there and you left an okay tip, they're going to treat you nice. And that very often can make your day. It's nice to go to a restaurant. So I will say that. So did you think that you ever made someone's day when you waited tables? I did, sure.

But I was in the game for 15 years and over a bunch of years. I had a few off days. There's still a Yelp review or two about me floating around out there. I remember one said, I'd probably really dig this guy's vintage record collection, but I hope I never get him as a waiter again. Oh, my God. And the one that really got me and sticks with me,

I didn't even really criticize my service, but it referred to me as Cato Caelin. Wow. Yeah. What you got to learn, you know, the old shoulder touch and squat next to the table thing. Now some servers do that and you're just like, oh, we're on the same level now. That is interesting.

You should say that because we're going to get into why they do that. Okay, cool. But as far as me as a waiter, I tried to be the smiliest version of myself. And I will admit, it did suck being a cheesier version of yourself than you really are. Crazy that you and you waited tables, you were even cheesier than you are on this show. I can't wrap my head around that. Yeah, I walked right into that. Okay, fine.

So that said, the Itching Palm also argued that tipping was just a way businesses could avoid paying their employees a living wage by shifting the burden onto the customers, which is exactly something that you've already expressed in this episode. Yes, the Itching Palm makes a hell of a lot of good points so far. I dig it. Yeah. And finally, it actually argued that tipping was, and this one is something you don't see very often anymore, that it was un-American, that it reeked of that European aristocracy, that having workers essentially beg for an extra coin clashed with. the ideals of American society. So of all the criticisms you hear about modern tipping culture, you don't hear that one anymore. If anything, people complain that it's the person with the iPad who's acting like an aristocrat. I'm going to buy the itching palm if that thing is still in print, although it's been 100 years, so who knows? Actually, I looked it up, of course. It's totally still in print. Wow. So sadly, though, the itching palm did not turn the tide on tipping,

and it continued. But as far as people working for nothing, in 1938, as part of the New Deal, the United States government established the first ever federal minimum wage of 25 cents an hour, mandating that all employees in the United States had to be paid at least 25 cents an hour. So people couldn't work for free anymore? No. Because they literally excluded people who work from tips from the bill. They wrote it into the law that people who work for tips didn't need to make an hourly wait. But that's not the case anymore, right? people are not working for free. Kind of. That is to say they're receiving a paycheck, but sometimes

it's $0.00. Again, trust me, I know I've received a bunch of them. This is because people who work for tips are paid lower than the actual minimum wage, right? So it's not really the minimum wage. No, that I said out loud. No, it's not even close. And it's called the tipped minimum wage. And that came about after a century of paying tip workers, nothing. In 1966, the federal government actually stepped in and created the official sub-minimum wage for tipped workers. That is, to say a minimum wage for people who earn tips. Now people waiting tables had to be paid at least 62 cents an hour. Jeez, I know a dollar went a lot further back in 1996, but I'm pretty sure 62 cents was still freaking peanuts. And that's why in 1996, the federal government raised the

sub-minimum wage to $2.13 an hour. Wow. So in $1996, I guess that's not too bad? I don't know. Well, guess what? Because that's where the federal sub-minimum wage has remained ever since. Wait, it's still 2.13 an hour in 2026? Yep, still 2.13 an hour. And that pretty much just pays the taxes, which is why, when I say I was a waiter in Massachusetts, I would regularly receive paychecks for $0, unless I had a really crappy week in tips, and then sometimes the paycheck would be upwards of $12. So that's crazy. So if you go into work and it's super slow, you just made $2.13. cents an hour? Yes, to be honest

with you, but technically no. The law is written so that if you don't make money in tips, your employer is supposed to make up the difference, and that should be at least the actual minimum wage. And what is that? Seven bucks an hour or something like that? I don't even know. No, no one can live off of $7 an hour.

The federal minimum wage in the year 26 is $7.25 an hour. Okay. And for the record, in my 15 years of waiting tables, I never met one person for whom the restaurant ever made up for bad tips by boosting their wage. It just doesn't happen and it's not enforced. So you'd go into work on a slow week and make $2 an hour?

Let's not make it sound like pure feudalism here, Jordan. That was $2.13 an hour. Jeez, but you still had to do all the things you were required to do at the restaurant, right? Yep, full napkins, cleaned silverware, take out the trash, clean the mats, you name it, all the restaurant duties. But instead of making $7 an hour, I was paid $2.13. cents an hour for manual labor. I mean, playing devil's advocate here, the sub-minimum wage is obviously beneficial to the restaurant owners. They create jobs in the community. So I guess that's the argument for the sub-minimum wage to even exist in the first place. Yes, you're correct. But that is

also what anyone's sitting in a boardroom for a giant hospitality company will tell you. But here's the argument against it. You noticed that I said when I waited tables in Massachusetts, I made the sub-minum wage. Then I moved to California, and California is one of the states that makes restaurants pay their employees the minimum wage, like the actual minimum wage. Wow, a full $7.25 an hour? No, no, no, even crazier because when I started waiting tables in California, the state minimum wage was $10 an hour. By the time I finished, it was $15 an hour. Now, I'm sitting in California. I put in know for a fact, you are sitting in California.

So let me ask you something. Are there any restaurants around in California? I have noticed a few restaurants in California, yes. Yeah, more than a few. California has the most restaurants. restaurants of any state. Okay, we're a huge state, so that's a given. But clearly the business model of paying tip workers, the minimum wage is working. That is good. It's probably close to impossible to live in California on 2.13 an hour plus tips. Yes, but here's the problem. California is an outlier. Currently, there are only seven states that pay tip workers the state minimum wage, and that is Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington. and everywhere else, tip workers are still making less than the minimum wage. It's interesting. We live in a world where so many of the restaurants or chain restaurants

operate in multiple states. So how do they justify that in one state, they pay their employees $213 an hour, and in another state they pay their employees $15 an hour? How does the business model work in one state and not in another? Yeah, that's an incredibly good question. If a big chain restaurant can afford to pay waiters in California $15 an hour, why are they only paying waiters in Texas $2.13 an hour. Just doesn't make any sense. And looking for the answer to this question was not that easy. This is not something those giant corporate restaurants want to talk about. But from what I could find, the answer is that menu items are cheaper in the states where they pay their employees less. The people sitting in the boardroom might tell you that if they paid their employees more, the prices would go up and their customers would go to a competitor who is paying their employees the sub-minimum wage. Okay. That's a truly unsatisfying answer. It seems to me that if you can't pay your employees a living wage, then you really didn't have a job position open for them to begin with. I could afford to pay a whole ton of people two bucks an hour to do my bidding, but I don't know, by my moral standards, that would be wrong. What am I missing here? No, you're not missing anything.

Yeah, they claim that this is the business model that they need to survive. But meanwhile, the Olive Garden made more than $5 billion in 2024. And the CEO, Richard Cardenas, he made $6,700. What? That's not much at all. No, no, an hour. I just thought it was only fair that we compare these wages accurately. Yeah, $6,700 an hour.

That's, okay, now that's pretty sweet. Does that include his tips, though? That's what I need to know. Oh, I wonder. So this business model is hugely profitable, obviously. Companies are making $5 billion and still only paying their employees $2.13 an hour. Look, I'm sure every other. industry in America looks at the hospitality industry with envy. Like, I'm sure they would love to pay their

employees close to nothing. Clearly, the problem is systemic. The hospitality industry is protecting the tipped minimum wage system because it benefits their bottom line, right? I'm going to push back a tiny little bit. Michael Rogelio taking the side of the man, the big corporations. What's going on here? No, that's not what I'm doing. The thing I'm going to push back on is that it's not just the big corporations. The sad fact is it's also us, the customers. We are part of the problem. So this has been studied very closely. Professor Michael Lynn at Cornell University is one of the world's leading experts on the psychology of tipping. And his research has shown some really interesting results. So he's run a number of experiments. In one experiment, he gives people two

menus. On one, it states, do not tip. All the costs are factored into the prices you see on the menu, and the servers are paid a decent living wage. On the other menu, it says tipping is a appreciated. And the prices reflect the fact that the employees are paid the sub-minimum wage. So they're the same price, right? If you pay 30 bucks for a pizza and you have to leave a $6 tip, that's the same as if you just pay $36 for the pizza and leave no tip? Absolutely. But the only problem is, it turns out, psychologically speaking, everybody prefers the cheaper menu and then to leave the tip. In fact, many businesses have experimented with no tippings, and more often than not, it doesn't work out.

Huh. Yeah, I do remember a few restaurants trying that about 10 years ago, and now I can probably on one hand list a number of restaurants that I know that do no tipping. Yeah, they're out there. It is a model that is still fighting for survival, but one of the most high-profile examples was restaurateur Danny Meyer. He had an entire movement called the hospitality included bottle. And in 2015, they eliminated tipping in all their restaurants. They raised prices, roughly 20 percent, and paid higher-based salaries for everyone. The only problem was, That the best servers, they freaking hated it. The customers all hated it. And they had to reverse course and bring back tipping. And this was the fate for pretty much every restaurant chain that tried it.

They almost all had to reverse course. That is pretty crazy. Obviously, we humans have some sort of psychological hang up when it comes to tipping. What's the psychology here? What's going on here? Like I said, it has been studied, and there's been a lot of research done on it, and the results were pretty interesting. So when researchers started, they had three assumptions about why people tipped.

that they were operating off. First, that was people tip for social approval. Researchers believe that people tip because they didn't want their peers to think they were cheap. Second, they also assume people tip because of fairness and equity. In other words, they tip because it's the right thing to do. I should help this person get ahead with their bills or whatever. And thirdly, they assume people would tip because they wanted better service next time they were in the restaurant. I don't know if this is true, but I heard that the word tip is an acronym

and it stands something like to ensure promptness. I don't know. Yeah. No, I came across that. Definitely not true because I actually believed that for a second to. I was like, oh, that makes perfect sense. And then I read, no, that would, the word insure would be the one with the E, not the I in that case. Yeah, so it would be tep, which is not the word.

No, no. The word probably comes from the 17th century English slang to tip was to hand something over to a person. Maybe if a crook was holding you up, he'd say, tip over your money, mate. Yeah. Tipping for every transaction also. feels like I'm being robbed, so maybe it works. Yeah, yeah, that's actually funny. That's where it comes from.

But here's where the findings of the researchers get really interesting. So even if the service was great, research shows the correlation between great service and tipping really isn't a thing. There is some correlation. So this goes counter to what I was just telling you, but there's a lot of my personal experience that runs counter to what the research found. But they found that there is some correlation for good service and better tips, but is actually not very strong.

For the most part, people tip for other reasons. Again, a lot of this research was done at Cornell University by a guy by the name of Professor Michael Lynn. He's written extensively about the psychology of tipping. And his team found that the number one factor is actually just the mood of the customer. That's it. A cranky person going to leave a crappy tip no matter what the staff was like. Wow. A cranky customer is probably going to think the service was terrible no matter what because they're cranky.

That's a totally solid point. Yeah. But the other factors, the. researchers found were that the appearance of the server actually plays into it quite a bit. And sadly, when you read the research, it's not just that if you're shabby looking, of course you're going to get a worse tip because you look like you don't respect the job and you didn't iron your shirt. And these are messages that we send to people like about how seriously we're taking the job. No. Unfortunately, and I hate to say this, an ugly person makes less tips than a good looking person.

Yeah. I kind of feel gross saying this as well. But hasn't it been? proven that women make more tips if they look kind of sexy while they're working? Yeah. Sadly, every woman that's ever weighted tables will tell you that's true. Unfortunate, but true. And the research bears that out as well. This plays into actually what psychologists call the halo effect. That is that we just naturally assume good-looking people are more likable, competent, and deserving. And that's not just in the food service. That's, sadly, in society. That is objectively unfair. And researchers have also found that female servers who wear red lipstick tend to earn higher tips.

And getting back to what you were talking about, where you noticed that a lot of times they'll sit or crouch by the table, the research bears that out as too, that those who sit or crouch at the table instead of standing when taking an order, they earn more tips as well, including they also found that adding a small personal message to the check boosts a tip. Every time you get a check and it's got like, thank you with the smiley face on it, that is a server who has either through personal experience notice that they make more tips, or maybe gone in and read the psychology of tipping and understands that's why they do that.

And somewhat uncomfortably, the research even says that a light touch between the server and the customer, like briefly placing a hand on a customer's shoulder while asking how everything was going. This also associates with higher tips. I've known a few servers who told me that as well. Here's the other obvious issue.

When workers' paychecks become directly connected to keeping patrons happy, even when those patrons cross boundaries is here and there, and we all know that there's a bunch of guys out there dumb enough to think that the pretty waitress is being extra nice, that that's some kind of invitation. Yeah, no, you nailed it there. And there is an underlying cringe factor that exists at almost all restaurants. And that is sadly that the female servers just have to accept this reality, that some guys

are just going to be cringy. So, yeah. Yeah. And this is so interesting because research has repeatedly shown the restaurant workers in states with the tipped minimum wage, that is, to say the sub-minimum wage, that is to say they are relying solely on the tips. Women who work in restaurants of that nature report much higher levels of sexual harassment. According to industry studies, women working in states with the tip minimum wage were almost

twice as likely to report sexual harassment compared to women in states where they received the state minimum wage. And they were also in the tip minimum wage jobs far more likely to report managers telling them to dress sexier to increase tips. Yeah, that's gross. This episode is brought to you by the slow collapse of social norms and by the following sponsors. This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter.

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Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter.com slash Jordan. That's ZipRecruiter. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is sponsored in part by Concierge MD. I've gotten way more interested in preventative health as I've gotten older because I don't want to wait until something is seriously wrong before paying attention to it. Most health care is basically built around fixing problems after the fact. Concierge MD is one of the few services I've used that actually focuses on optimization before things go sideways. What sold me is how thorough they are. Most doctors run the same standard labs, give you seven, seven rushed minutes and send you on your way with everything looks fine. Meanwhile, you're exhausted, your recovery sucks, your sleep is inconsistent, and your focus is all over the place. With concierge

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And if you all have any questions about this, I am really using it and I have been for a while, so please feel free to email me. Conciergemd.com, use code Jordan for 20% off. If you want to discuss the show with other fans and other people who actually don't like the show and are still there for some reason, come join us on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Whether you're an experienced redditor or just want to join the fray, come and find us on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. So women are expected to tolerate inappropriate comments, touching, flirting, and basically some form of humiliation because

the customer is basically deciding whether they can afford their rent. Yeah, I'd be curious about the experiences of the listeners who've also waited tables and see if they line up with my experiences because my experience was mostly that the female servers I knew laugh it off. Like, it takes a lot to offend them. The dude would have to be particularly egregious piece of garbage for it to become an issue. They don't want to lose their job either, right? So, yeah, like, I would imagine a woman has to decide, do I want to make a big deal about this or do I want to still work here? Because that guy comes in all the time. He's a regular. They're just going to fire me. So I have to let him fake smack my butt every time I walk by in the,

like giggle or I don't know, whatever cliche, and annoying thing, or like, he's going to ask me out like he does every week and I'm going to say no, and he's just going to do it again and again and again, and I can't really complain at all. That's gross. That's not okay, even if they do laugh it off. A lot of cringy compliments, too, about their looks from dudes. It's just, speaking of the stories that I've told, I don't think this could happen anymore,

but I do remember one time in 1995 that the chestnut tree mall in Massachusetts, my first job as a waiter, some dude. totally crossed the line. I can't remember what, but I remember the manager, walked up to his table, put him in a headlock, and dragged him out to the parking lot. The lawyer in me says with the presence of cameras everywhere now, that dude would, he would come back with a big old lawsuit against, what was the name of the place? It was actually called paparazzi. Oh, God. The Chestnut Hill Mall. It's still there, and I will say, I dream of their spaghetti bolognese. I will tell you that. First of all, the name paparazzi is, yikes. Look, that's the chestnut.

That's a 20th century thing. Headlocking people that get out of line is a 20th century thing. So we've established that some dudes tip because they're dumb enough to think the waitress as being nice to them because they actually like him. How sad. Yeah. Research also shows that social norms play a major role in tipping. Most people just always tip 15 to 20%. There's even some meta analysis suggesting that tipping has an element of mystery and unpredictability.

All that said, I can tell you from experience. And again, I'm curious what the listener's experiences might have been. but that a good server definitely makes more money than a bad server any day of the week. Apparently it's not the only factor, but some research suggests that service quality accounts for only about one to five percent of a server's tips. I don't want to argue with the researchers, but that number feels a little off to me. I think about this guy Marcus, actually, who worked at the paparazzi at the Chestnut Tree Mall in Massachusetts. Marcus could charm an extra 10% out of even the crankiest people.

This guy was amazing. So for some people, service definitely means better tips. When you said restaurants that tried the no tips model had to reverse course because customers and staff hated it, is that why staff hated it because they couldn't work their magic to get paid more, basically? Yeah, absolutely. Let me pull back the curtain and tell you a little bit about the hierarchy within the server community. Like I said, I don't want to argue with the research, but I'm sure statistically service isn't a huge factor over millions and millions of transactions, but there are some talented people out there who can charm a

table into throwing down extra tips every time. Like Marcus at that place in the mall. Yes, exactly. And these people are the restaurant's best, most valuable employees, and they definitely exist. And while the no tipping policy probably benefited just about everybody else in the restaurant, it positively decimated these high-earning servers. And when these restaurants tried the no-tip policy, all the best servers, their best employees, the best ambassadors of their brand. They all quit and went to restaurants that did have tipping. Huh. Yeah, I get that.

We've all been charmed by a charismatic server before, and they kind of put you into trance as you're filling out your credit card slip at the end of the meal. And you're like, man, I want to buy that guy a new car. Yeah. And everybody loves that server. But the problem is with the proliferation of ubiquitous tipping, we're starting to notice that it's not just the charming server who knows how to get an extra couple. bucks out of us by touching our shoulder or wearing red lipstick or whatever it is, the iPad itself

is actually using psychological tricks to get a couple extra dollars out of us too. I know one psychological trick is paying on your phone versus paying a cash. Back in the old days, you had to count out every dollar, you watch it go from your pocket into somebody else's hand or whatever. You understood the value of the transaction. But when it's on your phone, maybe it's just me, but the money seems kind of fake. It's fantasy money. It's numbers on a screen. Yeah, that's exactly right. So the iPad has an advantage from the get-go. But the people programming the iPad have also weaponized that little tip window to pressure you into tipping more. Let's start with the psychological trick they call anchoring. So tell us what anchoring is. Okay, so anchoring comes from the world of behavioral

economics and has been studied very closely by psychologist Daniel Kahneman, who was instrumental in shaping our understanding of judgment and decision-making processes. So anchoring is the psychology that says when presented with several numbers, the first number your brain sees becomes your reference point. And your brain adjusts its expectations from there. So in the old days with the iPad, if you want to go back to the real old days

when the first iPad came around, the first number you saw was actually probably 10%, followed by 15%, and then 20%. Your brain says, okay, so the 10% is a bad tip, 15% is an okay tip, and 20% is a good tip. So without even knowing it, you're being conditioned to believe you should leave

the middle number and not the lower number. Yeah, that's crazy. I'm old enough to remember when 15% was normal and 20% was a really good tip. Yeah, it's funny because this is how anchoring works, and I'll challenge you to still find those numbers because now a lot of the iPads, and I've seen this myself, the lowest tip is 18, and the next option is 22%, and then 25%. So the person looking at the iPad screen thinks 18% is crappy, 22% is normal, 25% is good. So they'd basically tricked us into giving them another couple percent. And then you add in the pressure that we've already talked about that comes from the fact that the person you're tipping is staring at you.

And very often, without even knowing why you did it, you probably might even hit the 25% button. So this game is rigged. And I don't want to ruin anybody's income, but there are a bunch of tricks out there that make it even worse. I know from my days of waiting tables that any party at my restaurant that was over five people automatically got a gratuity included. Now, being the honest fellow that I was, I don't.

always point this out to the customers. I'd be like, hey, you don't need to tip me. There's already 20% gratuity included, which, if I'm being totally honest, I was also doing my own little psychological trick, hoping that they would see how honest I was by pointing out that you don't need to give me an extra tip in hopes that they would be impressed and give me an extra little tip. So perhaps there was a little trickery in my honesty. Sure. Yeah, that would not work on me. I don't think. I'd be like, oh, good. Thanks for telling me. You'd get nothing else. Yeah, I've seen that gratuity included thing on a check before. And I've also had to ask the way. waiter, hey, what is this, only to have them go, oh, yeah, that's the gratuity. It's already

included, knowing full well that had I not noticed, I would have added another 25% or whatever, on top of the 20% that they already charged me. Yeah, that's happened to me too. And I know a bunch of waiters and, or servers that would intentionally not tell the table that gratuity was included in hopes that it would turn into an extra 25%. And it's annoying. And I get that. We're all trying to get ahead here. But when it's the freaking iPad trying to trick me, playing a psychological game on me, that's what I say something has to change. And when you're trying to play psychological tricks on me with your iPad before the food even comes out, come on. Yeah.

And sadly, it's not even just for meals anymore. iPad is getting pushed at us just about everywhere you go. And a big driver of this, of course, has been the gig economy. Corporate America figured out a long time ago that it's cheaper to just call everybody an independent contractor, offer no salary, no benefits, but to sweeten the deal and to entice people into taking these low-paying jobs, they let them solicit tips. And it just turned into a runaway train. People were like, damn, dude, if my Uber driver, my door-dress driver, my breached on my hairdresser, my donut shop employee, my florist and my freaking plumber are all asking for a tip. Why shouldn't I ask for a tip

at my job? Yeah. And rather than do something about this, it seems like both political parties have doubled down on the gig economy and essentially made no tax on tips. A big. part of their political platform. Yep. And quite frankly, the results have been disastrous, or at least deeply unfair, because suddenly the person scraping by delivering packages who doesn't receive tips is trying to understand why their friend who delivers sandwiches is receiving tips that they don't have to pay taxes on. It's sort of an arbitrary policy that helps some struggling Americans and leaves others hanging out to drive. Plus, the dirty little secret the politicians pushing for this policy didn't mention is that actually over one third of tipped employees

in America don't even earn enough money to pay any income taxes at all. So it's a little bit of a head fake. Hey, no tax on tips. And people are like, yeah, I'm going to vote for that guy, no tax on tips. And it's like, well, you wouldn't have to pay tax anyway, because you're making under, I don't know what the amount is. You're making such a low amount of money. It wouldn't matter. Yeah, and it's confusing for the rest of us. We've become so conditioned to tip everywhere and every one that when the nice package delivery guy shows up and hands me in my packages and tells me to have a nice day, I sometimes feel like, oh, supposed to tip him too? I don't know. Yeah, which is where we are now. Tip fatigue. People

are freaking done. Everywhere I go on social media, I see people complaining about tipping. I'm pretty sure the entire system has reached its, I'll just say it, tipping point. I was wondering when you would make that pun. But what is the solution? Because we've already established that we are part of the problem. We apparently like tipping. Corporate America as part of the problem, the major American political parties are part of the problem because of the whole tax thing. Are we just going to overhaul the whole system? It just seems so unlikely. Yeah, it's interesting because what you said something at the beginning of this episode that was really salient, and what you said was, it's funny that Americans were initially turned off by tipping

because it seems so European, but anyone that's traveled to Europe knows that now Europeans don't really have this system, and we do. And spoiler alert, Europe's full of restaurants. Yes. They're making it work. Those restaurants are full of servers. And those restaurants that are full of servers are also full of customers. And the customers don't tip. And the staff doesn't expect it.

Somehow, the business model just works. To say that a restaurant reminded you of a little bistro you ate at it in Paris, that's always a compliment when somebody says that, right, about a restaurant. When people think of European restaurants, they're not like, oh, they're terrible. The food is bad. The experience sucks. You never really hear that. No.

Look, again, it's not so different than the no-trial. tipping required model that was tried in America, which is they just charge you up front for everything and then pay their employees a higher wage. Look, and at the risk of sounding like I'm on a soapbox, I don't think tipping is the problem. Tipping is the symptom. We've built an economic system in America where maximum profit is the only acceptable outcome. So businesses behave the way businesses have always behaved, like kids on a playground. If everyone else is doing it, they have to do it too, except this isn't a playground. And if you don't do it, you're not getting picked last. You're going out of business. Your competitors will bury.

you. So no, the solution isn't to stop tipping your server, your DoorDash driver or the breest is standing there while the iPad stares into your soul. They didn't build this system. They're just surviving in it. The real problem is that we've normalized a system where wages are optional. Prices are misleading and the customer is quietly expected to make up the difference. So if we actually want to change, it's not about stiffing workers. It's about asking why we've created an economy where companies can't compete unless they underpay. Workers can't survive without tips and customers are constantly being nudged, pressured, and psychologically manipulated just to complete a transaction. So that is not a service economy. That's actually a race to the bottom.

And if we want something better, then yeah, probably starts with policies and the people we vote for to implement them. Because right now, we're kind of all just standing there, staring at that iPad, being told, it's just going to ask you a quick question. It turns out that quick question leads to a lot more questions. The solution to tip fatigue though, is not just to stop tipping. I'd love to, but it's not going to work. That system we're talking about has been building for over 100 years. You just don't unwind something like that overnight. It's systemic. But here's the upside. Sounds like nobody really likes it. Workers don't like relying on it. Customers don't like being pressured by it. And plenty of restaurants have actually tried to move

away from it. So if we can say one thing definitively, it's that people are ready for something better. Now, the real question is what that something better actually is and how much of of the 21st century economic system were really willing to change to get there. Thanks, Michael. Hey, good job. Oh, really? It was a good job? Yeah. Oh, thanks, man. Hey, if you don't mind, I'm just going to send you over a little

something from Venmo. Yeah. It's just going to ask you a real quick question. Great. Yeah, I just so happen to have a super quick answer. Just two letters, in fact. So thanks to Michael, and thanks to you all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to meet Jordan atjorniger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show.

at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Michael at Michael Regelio on Instagram. That'll also be linked to the show notes because nobody can spell Regulio. Michael pay those bills. Tour dates coming up. I'm going to be in New York in the fall.

If anyone on the East Coast wants to come see me and Warbar, available on Amazon. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Also, we, of course, try to get these as right as we can.

Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact-checked. So consult a qualified professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well-being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. When a government bans words, people turn language into code. LaWai 86 reveals how Chinese citizens hide dissent in memes, emojis, and mythical creatures, and how AI is now learning to crack those codes. Hear how this censorship cat and mouse game is getting darker on episode 1299 of the Jordan Harbinger show. We have to understand that China is an absolute totalitarian dictatorship.

So these words to get around censorship are very necessary. and I want to say the punishments before we get into this to understand what Chinese people face in terms of trying to express themselves. If you spread rumors, you can get three years in prison. The second level of this is picking quarrels, making people have a debate or a discussion about something online. And if the government decides that you're having a discussion about something they don't want you to talk about, that gets you five years in prison.

And then you have inciting subversion. And in China, that is absolutely positivity. the worst thing you can do. I mean, to the Chinese government, that's like treason almost. So they can get you up to 15 years in prison and people do face these jail times just for stuff they post online. So keep that in mind when we try to decode some of this language, people are literally risking their freedom and lives to post these things and get their worries out there into the world. To drink tea means you actually go to the police station because the tradition is if you go into any sort of Chinese building or something, you're offered some tea or hot water in a cup.

recently, the way of talking about the current economic situation in China has gotten people arrested. Talk egg prices. If you talk about specifically just eggs, oh, egg prices are really high right now. That's like how to express discontent that life is getting too uncomfortable. Talking about the leader is so off limits. It's not even funny. I mean, that's where you get the 15 years to actually just disappearing. People that do bring up or ask the leader to step down,

that is the worst thing you can do in China, period. LaWai 86 reveals how Chinese citizens hide dissent in memes, emojis, and mythical creatures on episode 1299 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. I started Or Not in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non-technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end, and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually actually. actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.com.