The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1366: Gut Health | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: August 9, 2026

Probiotics, cleanses, leaky gut, worms — science or scam? Jessica Wynn digests the truth about your microbiome this Skeptical Sunday!Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by writer and researcher Jessica Wynn!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1366On This Week's Skeptical Sunday:Your gut is a genuine marvel, with 500 million neurons chattering up the vagus nerve to your brain. But "marvel" got rebranded as "malfunction" the second the wellness industry smelled money. The gut-brain axis is real science; the $62 kombucha is not."Scientists discover the sadness bacteria" sells. "We found a correlation we can't explain yet" doesn't. Depressed people do have different gut bacteria — but no one knows which is driving the bus. Correlation isn't causation, a lesson the internet forgets daily.Those "parasites" in cleanse videos are mucus casts — your product coming back out, shaped like worms. "Leaky gut," "mucoid plaque," rope worms: catch-all diagnoses for being alive. The cleanse creates the problem, then sells you the repair kit. Perfect loop.The pitch targets women for a reason: IBS hits them twice as often, and medicine spent decades calling their symptoms "just stress." Wellness says "your doctor won't listen, we will." That distrust is earned — but a real grievance doesn't make the $79 capsules work.The good news is that your microbiome isn't broken, so stop trying to fix it. Eat a wide variety of real, whole and fermented foods, move your body, sleep, manage stress — and take real symptoms to a gastroenterologist, not TikTok. Boring, cheap, and it works.Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know!Connect with Jessica Wynn at Instagram (and Instagram!), and subscribe to her newsletters: Between the Lines and Where the Shadows Linger!And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: HomeServe: Find the plan that's right for you: homeserve.comSimpliSafe Home Security: 50% off + 1st month free: simplisafe.com/jordanProgressive Insurance: Free online quote: progressive.comFlyKitt: 15% off: flykitt.com, code JORDANSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host writer and researcher Jessica Wynn. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, we do Skeptical Sunday. a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic. Such as, why tipping makes no sense, banned foods, internet porn, targeted ads on the internet, diet supplements, Reiki healing, ear candling, and more.

And if you're new to the show, or by the way, you know what was funny, one of the most controversial episodes of this show we've ever done was ear candling. The amount of people who swear that it works, even though it absolutely doesn't, and that it's from like an ancient Native American, blah, blah, they're like, Like, I'm 116th Cherokee and my great-grandmother used to do this. And I'm just thinking, okay, but it's still fake. I've actually lost listeners because of ear-candling. But you can do pretty much anything else, and people are like, oh, okay, interesting.

Ear candling apparently was the one sacred cow we just could not touch. I thought that was kind of fascinating. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of some of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime, and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today we're talking about guts. Make sure you're ready to stomach it. Some say it's our second brain, which is concerning because, I don't know, my gut, yikes, not always the best decision maker. It steered me wrong many times, mostly to buffets and gas station sushi here and there.

Some say this second brain controls our mood, cravings, anxiety, possibly much of our destiny, which is a lot of pressure to put on something that also processes tacos. Fair warning, we're going to talk about worms, parasites, leaky gut, yuck. So maybe finish eating first. Make sure your gut is full by the time you listen to this episode. Or don't eat at all because honestly this episode, that could curb your appetite. So is it possible to clean up your gut? Is gut health legitimate science or extremely well-marketed wellness con?

Joining me to digest all of this info is writer and researcher Jessica Wynn. All right, what's going on here? Are we making decisions or are our guts ruining our lives? Well, it would be nice to have simple biological explanations, but our lives are complicated. But the gut brain connection, it is real. It's fascinating, legitimate science. What your gut does is remarkable. But your gut's not your life coach, and it's not running your life.

Okay, but how did it turn into an entire section in Whole Foods? I walked in there last week or whatever. I found an entire aisle labeled gut health. Probiotics, prebiotics, postbiotics, literally don't even know the difference. It sounds like what happens after you take the other biotics. I don't know. There was a kombucha that was, I'm not even kidding, $62 and was like, oh, you're going to, I don't know, become happier and reach enlightenment if you drink this.

That's crazy to me. Yeah, that's insane. $62 for kombucha? Yeah. Look, it was probably blessed by monks or something. I don't know. But when did the gut become the answer to everything? Because that aisle, that didn't exist, I want to say 10 years ago.

For sure. About 15 years ago, technology changed everything. So we'd known that bacteria lived in the gut for over a century. The problem was that most of them wouldn't grow in a lab. You can't just scoop some bacteria out, put it in a petri dish, and see what's there. So for decades, we were basically guessing. Then advances in DNA sequencing got cheap and let researchers identify microbes by reading their genetic material directly. So it was like almost overnight we went from seeing maybe 10 to 20 percent of gut bacteria to identifying thousands of species.

So science opens a window into this hidden world and immediately someone's like, yeah, great, how do we monetize it? So that's why it's exploding on the shelves. That's pretty much what happened, yeah. The wellness industry took this research and turned it into a massive business of supplements, cleanses, and gut health products. The scientific research was legitimate and exciting, but very quickly, gut health became the explanation for everything from depression to acne. And the industry saw dollar signs.

Globally, the gut health market is now worth tens of billions of dollars. Wow. tens of billions of dollars worth of products to help your poop. More or less, yeah. And the marketing is like, balance your microbiome, support your second brain, heal your gut, heal your life. When there's a kernel of truth, because your gut bacteria do matter, but the wellness industry claims go way beyond the evidence. Because saying, hey, your digestion is probably fine.

That doesn't sell. But your gut is broken and only this $79 bottle of capsules can fix it. That sells. Yeah, and take depression. So it's true that people with depression often have different gut bacteria than people without depression. Who's not depressed? I don't know. Yeah. Currently, I'm not. That's all I can say. Right now I'm not. Right in this moment. Same. This is my safe place. But that's real published research that there is a difference in the gut bacteria. But that's where people get ahead of the evidence. So we know they're connected. We don't know which one is driving.

the bus, though. So does the bacteria cause the depression, or does the depression change the bacteria? Or is it something else, like stress, diet, poverty, something like that affecting both? Correlation is not causation. We learned that in school, yet everybody on social media forgets immediately. But the truth doesn't move product. So like you said, you can't say this probiotic is correlated with mood in ways we don't fully understand on a label. it won't sell. I also noticed this whole gut health aesthetic seems very targeted. Instagram ads, influencers, pastel powders, most of it is geared towards women. Why? There's two main reasons. So one, IBS and other functional bowel disorders affect women about

twice as often as men. And two, women's health, including digestive complaints, has historically been dismissed by the medical establishment. You know, it's stress, it's anxiety. It's anxiety is what women are told. So the wellness industry steps in and says, your doctor won't listen. We will. Yeah, that's actually quite predatory. They're exploiting real symptoms and real medical dismissal to sell products. And the symptoms are so specific. It's always like, are you bloated? Are you anxious, tired? Can't lose weight? Brain fog, which that's every human, one of those, at least, is every human who's ever lived. Exactly. And they exploit normalcy. And so, sell normal human variation as pathology. So sometimes you're bloated because you ate a lot.

Sometimes you're tired because you didn't sleep well. But marketing reframes that as a broken gut that requires fixing, you know, with these really expensive products. Okay. Before we get too cynical, there is real science here, though, right? This is not just totally made up. Oh, absolutely. The gut brain connection is one of the most exciting areas in medicine right now. What's frustrating is that real science is getting buried under a mountain of hype and oversimplification. So let's hear the real science. What do we actually know so far? All right. So your gut, which is your digestive tract, that goes from your esophagus to your rectum, is lined with something called the enteric nervous system or the ENS. So the ENS contains roughly

500 million neurons. That's more than in the entire spinal cord. That's hundreds of millions of neurons embedded in your gut. More neurons than my spinal cord? That is a massive amount of neurons. Wow, I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, it's a crazy complex network. So it controls digestion. So moving food, releasing enzymes, regulating blood flow, absorbing all the nutrients.

It can do all of that independently of your brain. So my gut can act on its own without my brain's permission. Just digestion is being outsourced. Yeah, pretty much. Your gut has its own reflexes, its own sensory system, its own decision-making processes for digestion. So we think this evolved because digestion is so complex, it couldn't rely on constant back-and-forth messages with the brain. So it needed to operate locally. Okay, but do these two brains talk to each other or what? Yeah, they do. Through the vagus nerve, which is the massive nerve that runs from your brain's stem down through your chest and into your abdomen. And one of the things scientists discovered when they started mapping those signals

is that roughly 80 to 90% of them travel from the gut to the brain, not the other way around. So it sounds like my gut is actually in charge. Well, your gut's very chatty, at least, you know. I mean, it's constantly updating your brain about what's happening down there, how full you are, the chemical composition of what you've eaten, whether there's inflammation or anything's off, all of that information is flowing up to your brain. That's why stress upsets your stomach. That's why anxiety makes you nauseous. It's this constant two-way conversation. So the gut brain axis is real. That's pretty cool. Yeah, completely real, yeah.

Okay, so now what about the bacteria that live in the gut? So in addition to this massive nervous system, your gut is home to trillions of microorganisms, mostly bacteria, but also fungi, viruses, other single-celled organisms. And they all ferment fiber. They produce these short chain fatty acids, make vitamins, and they help train your immune system. So you absolutely need them. So we're outnumbered by our gut bacteria inside our own body. Yeah, but not the way people used to claim.

So for years you'd hear that were 10 times more bacteria than human, but that number was way overblown. The newer estimate is closer to one, maybe about 1.3 bacterial cells for every human cell. So yes, technically, you are slightly more bacteria than human by cell count. That is a little disturbing, that I'm just a convenient host organism, essentially. That's kind of gross. It's kind of amazing, though. you know, it's an ecosystem. And those microbes communicate chemically with your enteric nervous system, which then talks to your brain.

So in a way, your gut bacteria can influence your brain. And this is where people go, cool, my bacteria are controlling my life, and this explains my diet, coke addiction. And that's where we need to slow down. So influence is not control. Your brain integrates thousands of inputs, like hunger, memory, culture, stress, sleep, budget, and yes, gut signals. But you're not being puppeteered by your gut or anything. But can my gut think if it's a brain?

No. But it's a brain. It's called a second brain because of the number of neurons. Okay. And because it uses the similar neurotransmitters as your actual brain, but it doesn't think, it doesn't reason. It can't compose poetry or solve equations or even decide. what you should have for dinner.

It is musical, though. Huh. But no, so what can it do? What can it actually do? Sample your tummy. That's right. It manages digestion. So it has these complex, sophisticated reflexes, but not thoughts.

There's no consciousness. Even the scientist who coined the term second brain, his name was Michael Gershahn, was very clear. The ENS doesn't help with the great thought processes like religion, philosophy, or art, that's left to the brain in the head. So it's not solving the Arab-Israeli conflict anytime soon. Fine. Don't go with your gut on that. No, look, I'm fine with it. I don't need my colon weighing in on my life choices. Yeah, yeah, you're complicated enough. Yeah, okay, but let me push back on something. You said people with depression have different gut bacteria. How would depression cause changes in gut bacteria? There's lots of possibilities. So lifestyle can certainly play a role. Someone who's

depressed may eat differently, sleep differently, move less, socialize less, or experience more chronic stress, and all of that can affect the microbiome. But depression also involves biological changes throughout your entire body, like your immunity, hormones, and inflammation, and that also can affect the gut directly. So when we see different gut bacteria in depressed people, we can't assume the bacteria cause the depression. Bacteria may be part of the story. They may be responding to it or both. The bacteria could be a culprit, a symptom, a little of each.

We just don't know exactly yet. So the honest answer is that we found a relationship, but we haven't untangled it. And that's a lot less exciting than scientists discover sadness bacteria. Yeah, it's much less exciting, but the wheels of science can move slow, right? So it's much more accurate, though. Sometimes we just have to sit with not knowing, at least yet. Yeah, okay, so hold on. If we're still figuring all that out, why are probiotics everywhere?

Yogurt, commercial supplements, and drinks. Every one of them seems to imply they know exactly what's happening in my gut. So are they legit? Does that stuff even do anything? Specific strains can help specific conditions, but everyone's microbiome is unique. It's like a fingerprint, and everyone's gut has. as about at least a thousand different species of bacteria. So the idea that one probiotic supplement with maybe five or ten strains of bacteria

is going to, quote, unquote, fix your gut. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah, it seems like tossing a handful of tourists into Manhattan and hoping they change the culture of the city. Yeah, right, right. I mean, they might stay, they might die off, they might not make any difference at all. Yeah, the tourists, right? probiotics are useless, or is that an overstatement?

No, they're not useless. Some strains like lactobacillus or bifidobacterium can help reduce IBS symptoms in some people. There's also evidence that certain probiotics can reduce antibiotic-associated diarrhea. That's why some doctors recommend them during or after a course of antibiotics. Yes, whenever I take antibiotics, I buy one of those refrigerated nuclear-level probiotics from the pharmacy. And I swear I feel better because it's like you have the gut stuff from the antibiotics. And I just, it's not like right when I take one, it works, but basically one day later, I'm all good. But that could also just be my body recovering naturally. I really don't know.

It could help speed it up. I mean, that's the tricky part. Some evidence suggests certain probiotics can do that. They can reduce antibiotic associated side effects. But that's a much narrower claim then probiotics are good for everyone all the time. They're not this miracle cure the marketing suggests. So they're not the miracle cure the marketing suggests, okay, it's like supplements, which as we know are not exactly tightly regulated? Not at all. Several studies have found that many contain dead bacteria.

Some don't match the label. And even if they are legit, there's just no guarantee they survive your specific digestive system. or have the ability to colonize your gut. That's what I wondered. I was like, can't you digest pretty much anything? And you have acid in there, just kills everything. Wow, is this little... It's a gamble.

So you basically might be paying for a capsule of dead microbes or soon to be dead microbes. Yeah, potentially. What about yogurt? That feels less scammie somehow because it's just food and it's not $72. Fermented foods like yogurt, kimchi. Oh, just this morning, I read that there's new studies. coming out showing that eating kimchi,

microplastics will latch on to it and pass it. No way. Yeah, like they think kimchi will clean out plastics. Anyway, that was just an offhand off a side note I saw this morning. I don't know the facts behind it yet, though. Except for there's probably lead and kimchi. Hey, pick your poison. Which would you like?

Yeah, I'm kidding about that, hopefully. But yeah, fermented foods like that, sourcrow, whatever, they're generally a good idea for all kinds of reasons. but they contain live bacteria plus other nutrients, and humans have eaten them for thousands of years. But that's very different from taking high doses of isolated strains in a capsule form. I actually eat a lot of yogurt and kimchi. Not together.

That would be fricking disgusting. kimchi's fermented cabbage for people who don't know, like spicy fermented cabbage and vegetables that you eat in a Korean restaurant. It is good, especially if they like spicy food. yogurt and kimchi is a hell of a lot cheaper than an $80 bottle of probiotics that might just be dead and or sawdust from China or something. The amount of kimchi you could get for $80, you could get a metric shit done, which is a very good measurement to use. So the gut episode for 80 bucks. So the yogurt commercials with the animated bacteria throwing a rave in your intestines, what's going on?

I mean, they're extremely optimistic about what's actually happening. Can probiotics be harmful? Because if I'm eating live bacteria, I don't know, it sounds like that could also hurt you. Yeah, people assume that natural means safe. It doesn't. For most healthy people, probiotics, they're probably fine. But probiotics can cause serious infections if you're immunocompromised, if you have HIV in some cancer patients or people on immunosuppressant drugs. There are documented cases of all of that. So bacteria can cause bacterial infections. Okay, that's, yeah, who do? Correct, yeah. So we've come full circle. Also, high doses of probiotics can cause issues like delactic acidosis, which is too much

lactic acid, leading to brain fog and confusion. And for people with SIBO, which is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, you're adding bacteria to a system that already has too many. Ah, okay. So probiotics are not universally good. They're not like, I guess, vitamin. Well, you can probably take too much vitamins, too, but they're not vitamins. They're not vitamins.

They're live organisms. And that's a totally different category. Detox is often just diarrhea with better branding. More after this. More content, not more diarrhea. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by HomeServe. One of the least enjoyable parts of owning a home is realizing that something expensive

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Don't forget about our newsletter. We BitWiser. It is a two-minute read, highly practical, something you can apply right away. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Now, back to Sceptical Sunday. If somebody changes their diet or takes probiotics, how fast does anything happen? We honestly don't know. Some studies show microbiome changes happen within days to weeks, but many revert back immediately once you stop. So we don't know what's permanent, what's temporary, or even who responds.

I see. So the expensive supplement you're taking might not even do anything long term. It's probably not, which is why you should eat lots of diverse plants and fermenting. foods, and just be skeptical of expensive supplements, making big promises, like curing leaky gut or whatever. Okay, leaky gut sounds terrifying and gross. My intestines have, what, a plumbing failure? Holes in your intestines just sounds horrible.

Oh, yeah. The medical term is intestinal permeability, and it is real. So the gut barrier can become too permeable, allowing inflammatory molecules into the blood stream. So this only happens in specific diseases, though, in Crohn's, celiac, and really severe infections. But the wellness industry turned leaky gut into this catch-all explanation for your fatigue, acne, anxiety, brain fog, basically like what we said, all the symptoms of just being alive. And then you're sold a repair kit. With very little evidence it repairs anything, unless you have an actual diagnosed condition that requires medical treatment.

So if you have inflammatory bowel disease, you need medical treatment, not collagen powder. So if someone's selling a leaky gut repair kit, just be very skeptical. Yeah, especially if they diagnosed your leaky gut based on symptoms like sometimes I'm tired or I get bloated after eating. Which describes everybody who's ever eaten. Okay. There's so much social media convincing people that you are full of worms, literally, with videos like, check out this tapeworm the size of a garden hose. And it's so vum. Oh, my God, Jordan, researching this episode has absolutely destroyed my algorithm.

It's so gross. So prepare yourself next time you open Instagram. Yeah, I do not want my algorithm thinking my primary interest is catastrophic intestinal parasites. But hold on. Tell me, do we all have parasites? I've heard that. Are there worms in me right now, basically? Probably not. At least not if you're living in the United States or other developed countries. Intestinal parasitic infections are actually quite rare in the general population. But not zero.

Not zero, but rare. The most common are pinworms, which are mostly in children, or giardia, which you can get from contaminated water if you're camping or traveling. But if you had parasites, you'd very likely have symptoms like severe diarrhea, weight loss, pain, and sometimes visible worms in your stool. It's not subtle. What are these videos all over social media, the ones where someone does a cleanse and then just proudly films the toilet? Like they've just bested an alien species. There are these long, like ropey things floating around and everyone's like, oh my God, look at all the parasites. Yeah, they're actually called mucus casts. Oh, do I even want to ask? What is a mucus cast?

So your intestines naturally produce mucus. It's protective. It's normal. It's also gross. But it cleanses, which are basically harsh laxatives, irritate your gut and increase mucus production. So that mucus gets shaped by the intestines and comes out looking like ropes or worms. Okay. So this is less worm removal and more here. You know, arts and crafts, little paper mache. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, they're not real worms.

So ropeworms aren't even a real medical entity. They're not a species of parasite. They're mucus. Maybe with some undigested food or intestinal lining cells mixed in, just shaped into these disturbing-looking formations by the cleanse itself. Okay. But skeptics insist mucoid plaque is real. It's where parasites hide.

and it stores heavy metals, and Western medicine denies this on purpose, something, something big pharma. Yeah, right. Okay, so mucoid plaque was coined in the 1980s by a naturopath and like an alternative medicine practitioner, not a physician named Richard Anderson, who was selling cleanses. Ah, well. So, yeah, mucoid plaque does not appear in any medical textbook. thousands of colonoscopies are performed every day in which doctors look directly at the intestines. They don't see layers of toxic sludge. All topsys never show it. There's just no proof.

Yeah, I mean, I've even seen, I looked at the camera on my colonoscopy because I didn't fall asleep right away and then I woke up. I think I've told this story a hundred times on the show. So I'll spare everyone. But so the response is what? Only special untrained health influencers on social media can see this. toxic stuff. Isn't it funny how that works out? The response from the alternative medicine community is usually that doctors don't know what to look for or it's hidden from view. That is just unfalsifiable. It's circular logic. It's just not how evidence works. So what are people actually seeing come out

when they do the cleanses? The cleanse itself. So most of these products contain ingredients like cillium husk, which is a fiber supplement. Yeah, I take that. Yeah, or bentonite clay, which is literally the same stuff in cat litter. And when they mix with water, mucus, and whatever's already in your intestines, they've formed these long, rope-like masses, but all clumps together. And doctors call them casts because they've essentially just taken the shape of the intestine they pass through. Okay, so people aren't pulling parasites out of their bodies. They're just putting a bunch of Play-Doh mix into their gut, and then it comes out as Plato, and they're like, oh, my gosh. Look at that.

It's a worm. It's just psychosomatic. They're just pulling the cleanse back out of their bodies. So you're not removing toxins. You're just expelling that product. So it's creating the problem and then selling the solution. Pretty good business model there. Yeah.

Remarkably effective. It's this perfect product loop. Cleanse, binder, gut reset, repeat, and each one requires the next. What about, and I already know the answer to this, but what about the argument that Western medicine is hiding this all from us? This is where healthy skepticism turns into conspiracy thinking. And part of the reason it works is because medicine has genuinely failed some people. If you've spent years being dismissed, especially as a woman or a person of color, you're being told your symptoms are just stress, anxiety, or it's all in your head. it's not hard to understand why you'd be skeptical of the medical establishment. That distrust is real. The problem is that real distrust doesn't automatically make the alternative explanation true.

So the appeal kind of makes sense and the wellness industry just steps into the rescue. Of course, yeah, and they say, look, your doctor doesn't believe you, but we do. We take your symptoms seriously, and we have answers. And for someone who's been dismissed by multiple doctors or has crummy health insurance, that's incredibly appealing. And the problem is that uncertainty is uncomfortable. So if medicine says, we don't know, and a wellness influencer says, I know exactly what's wrong with you, most people prefer certainty, even when you And that certainty, you know, hasn't been earned. Yeah. So we're wired to think somebody has to be the hero and somebody has to be the villain. If medicine failed me, then the wellness guru, he must be the good guy. Exactly. But reality, it's usually messier than that.

Medicine fails people. Doctors can be dismissive. And someone selling cleanses can still be wrong on top of all of that. Those aren't contradictions. We tend to scrutinize big pharma because they rake in so much money. Then we turn around and trust a guy selling a $300 cleanse on Instagram. Right, right. But if these cleanses worked, big pharmaceutical companies would pat in the most effective cleanse

and be selling them tomorrow making billions. That's a good point. Yeah. And so there's money on both sides here. The supplement industry is worth billions too. And a lot of that is from people doing cleanses every month. Yeah, there's a place near me. I can't remember the name.

It's a juice place. and you can go in and get a juice, but their big moneymaker is selling a juice cleanse. And you go in there and you just order the cleanse, and I don't know, it's a couple hundred bucks or whatever. They just give you a case of different juices, and it's all you consume for whatever, however long, seven days or however long this juice cleanse is,

which has got to just be absolutely miserable because you're probably starving the whole time, and you're drinking like celery juice every three hours. I don't know. Yeah, it's just you're torturing yourself. You're torturing yourself. Yeah, you know what? Long time ago, almost 20 years ago, I tried that cleanse where you put, I don't even remember,

it's like cayenne pepper, sea salt, and lemon juice. Yes, that one. And you drink that. Here's all the folklore, because I don't know the real. Your body apparently thinks that it's blood because of the salt and the whatever. So you immediately have like crazy diarrhea, like for hours. and you drink this every day, no food, and you're washing your gut. And the person who told me to do it, she was like, even three weeks in, there were stuff

coming out, amazing, unbelievable, that stuff was probably stuck in there for years. And I'm like, I don't know, maybe not. But one of my former business partners who was a bio major, he was like, hey, Jordan, don't do this. Because I tried it for a day, and I was like, dude, don't do it. It's not good for you. And I was like, why? He goes, all you're doing is starving your gut bacteria, which you need. For what? So that you can rinse out your intestines, which no doctor says you need to do,

and there's no reason to go and do that. And getting a piece of lettuce unstuck inside your gut, who cares? What's the point? And it's not how digestion works. So it's like, what's the point of this? Meanwhile, you've got to stay home and be on the toilet for weeks at a time, basically. It's just dumb. It doesn't make any sense. And you probably come out the other side really tired and completely dehydrated. Yes. And also, like, are you working out? Because you're not taking it any protein or anything. thing. So I think people like it because it scratches this weird sort of OCD-ish itch where you're like, I've washed the inside of my body, but also you lose 20 pounds because you stopped eating,

right? Or 10 pounds or 5 pounds or whatever. And then you gain it back so fast. It's like a garden. We need some dirt in there. Yeah. The cleanse thing is just big money versus big money, and we probably need to be skeptical of both. Yeah, I mean, both mainstream medicine and alternative of medicine are profit-driven. Both make exaggerated claims. The question isn't who's selling it. It should always be, what does the evidence show? So if your doctor dismisses you, ask questions, get a second opinion. If someone is selling supplements or cleanses, ask for peer-reviewed research. And if they say Western medicine doesn't study this because they're biased and they're hiding the truth, I have a friend like that. Oh, me too. He's like, they're COVID-vax.

was for this and like they're hiding cancer cures and I'm just like that doesn't even make sense economically but does he get all his info from Instagram he gets all his info from a lot of places like that but also this is a guy who told me once the only credible source of information out there right now is RT which is Russia today which is a Kremlin sponsored fake news network that is global what is his life like it's everything is a conspiracy and I feel bad for him he sends me studies all the time to read. And I'll throw them into an AI and be like, can you summarize this for me? And AI is basically like, this is a nonsense widely discredited study that was not allowed to be published in any journal, was published in this seventh tier journal and then retracted because all the data was fake. And I'm

like, hey man. Yeah, see, they're trying to hide it from you. Yeah. To what end? And it's like, okay, how come nobody can replicate this and all of the methodology is nonsense. And it was made by one guy who cited himself. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It's such a red flag. Yeah. There are independent researchers worldwide, researchers in countries with nationalized health care, where the pharmaceutical industry has much less influence than here in America. So if something worked consistently, someone would have published rigorous evidence by now. This is the problem with conspiracies. the other side, the conspiracy perpetrators, have to both be flawlessly able to keep a secret among thousands or even millions of people, right? Like the moon landings fake. So everyone at NASA who

was in on this are all in on it. All nine moon landings. But they're also so incompetent that you can, I don't know, look at the one widely published photo and find a number written on a rock that somehow nobody else noticed. And that proves that it's a prop. You see this all the time. Oh, the Jews are lizard people and it's like, okay, but they also have this fatal flaw that's so obvious to even somebody with a second grade education that if you just do this, they can't hurt. It's all dense nonsense like this. And this is the same thing, right? Oh, they're hiding it. What about all the other places that don't have big pharma influencing them? Oh, they're in on it. They're in on it. They're in something revenue sharing behind the scenes, something the Illuminati, Epstein files,

whatever. And it's like, okay, but they're also so dumb that you can find the cancer cure on a TikTok video because some dude who's a copy machine repair man found it and leaked it. He went to repair the copy machine at the Mason Lodge. I've told this story years ago on the show. There's a guy in L.A. who used to run basically a cult, like a coaching cult. His name was Carl. And he would do all these weird coaching exercises and he had all these celebrities and influencer type people working with him.

And his thing was he was a copy machine repair man and somebody at the Pentagon. needed a copy machine repaired. So they walked him in there, and the document that was stuck in the copy machine was, I might get this wrong, but basically plans for a military base on the moon that already existed or diagram of a moon base, secret moon base on the dark side of the moon. And I'm like, so they just had any random copy machine repair guy with no security clearance come in here, pull out this super duper ridiculously top secret document from the Pentagon, look at it for as long as he wanted, and then just be like, all right, I'm done here.

that somebody was making a copy of. Yes, that was just photocopying this document. And he takes a look at it and they're like, yeah, no worries. See you later, Carl. So that was one of his ridiculous claims. So it's like, okay, so they can build a base on the moon and keep it a secret. But then when the copy machine breaks, they just call this yuts and have him fix it and take a look at everything at his leisure. No.

Yeah, this is a bad Michael Bay movie or something. Really is, yeah. He was a fascinating guy because he was able to manipulate people really well. and I remember my friend had him over to a party, and I met him, and he was really clever the way he manipulated things. So he tried to convince me of something, and I wasn't having it because I'm not a moron. I shouldn't say that, but like, I might be a moron. But I will say, he tried to convince me of something, and he realized really quickly that I was not a believer in his brand of nonsense or whatever, and one of my friends, she had a harp, like a full-size harp,

because she was a harpist or a harp player. And I was like, can I play this harp, or am I going to break it. She's like, no, you can touch it. You couldn't break this thing. Trust me. So I started playing the harp not well, because I never touched one in my life. And Carl's like, look at the way his fingers go along the strings. And I was just like, okay, you're playing in my ego. And then he was like, ladies, whenever anybody is vibrating like this with a beautiful instrument in the universe, you should be as close to them as you can physically. So he like placed all of these really gorgeous women at the party basically on my lap and next to me and in front of me. And they were like, put your hands on his shoulders. And I was like, this is actually a really clever strategy.

Because you know I'm a single guy. I'm not really picking up what you're putting down, but now you're basically communicating, literally get women to go all over you on command. You're going to want to hang out with me. You're going to want to cede power to me. And he did that very consciously and very effectively. And I was like, oh, this dude runs a real cult. This is a real call. Yeah, it probably works on the majority. party of men. Yeah, and I will say, even though I knew exactly what was going on, because it's exactly the kind of social dynamics I was really into at the time, I was fascinated by this. And I was like, you're obviously a harmful personality, but man is attempting to just be like,

you know what? I can lie down with dogs and hang out with these fleas for a little bit. I can avoid getting these fleas because it was just like, whoa, I don't know. I could get used to being a middle rung on this cult ladder with all these ladies around all the time. He really knew what he was doing. But back to gut health. Decades of no solid evidence, that's kind of evidence in some ways. Yeah, especially after 40 years or more of these claims. If the mucoid plaque were real, we'd know. And I know that's frustrating for some people, but the answer isn't picking aside and believing everything.

It's demanding better evidence from everyone. So we need to fix the system, not run into the arms of somebody selling expensive, questionable cleanses. What is in the cleanses again? You mentioned something like kitty litter, clay, and cillium husk, which is just full fiber. But what else is in there? Usually it's a mix of laxatives and herbal ingredients marketed as parasite fighters. So things like black walnut, wormwood, clove oil, they're really common ingredients. And they're plants that have traditionally been used against parasites.

and some of them do show anti-parasitic activity in studies. The problem is that evidence for these cleanses in actual humans is weak. So some of the products add diatomaceous earth. Yeah, I've heard of that. That's some kind of anti-bug powder, literally, right? Yeah, it's usually food-grade diatomaceous earth that's in the cleanses, not the industrial stuff. but it's made from fossilized microscopic algae, and it is commonly used for insect control. It kills bugs or it scratches them up somehow.

Yeah, it damages an insect's the hard outer coating and then completely dehydrates them. So the idea in humans is that it will scrape parasites off our gut lining in a similar way. But that's where the theory starts running into problems because insects are dry. Your intestines are not. So critics point out that the mechanism that works on bugs would never survive a wet digestive tract. Ah, okay. So the wellness pitch is basically, hey, it works great on ants. Let's see what happens.

Home Depot at that rate could have a gut health aisle. There's a surprising amount of crossover of these ingredients. That sounds unwise, like aggressively. Correct. Yeah, I mean, it can cause dehydration, electrolyte imbalance, and actually irritate your gut more, sometimes creating the very symptoms people are trying to fix. So you irritate your gut, you produce mucus, you expel it, and then interpret that as parasites. So it's this self-fulfilling prophecy. The gut health industry found a way to monetize bloating, fatigue, and being alive. Capitalism remains undefeated. Speaking of which, we'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored by Progressive. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind.

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Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. So cleanse, damage, panic by repair supplements. That's the model. It's really effective marketing. You see something alarming in the toilet. You think, oh, my God, it worked. I did have parasites. And then you tell everyone you know to do that cleanse.

Okay. So when should somebody actually worry about parasites? If you have chronic, unexplained GI symptoms, certain occupational exposures, like if you work with animals or in agriculture, there's a slightly higher risk. But for the average person with access to clean water and normal food, like I said, parasites are just so unlikely. And if you think you have parasites? See a doctor. Stool tests do exist. Treatment exists.

It's not mysterious. And if you do have them, there are real anti-parasitic medications that work. Okay. So not a $300 cleanse kit from social media from TikTok. No, and the same goes for H. Pylori, which is this really hot topic in gut health right now. What is H. Pylori? Never heard of this. So H. Pylori is a bacteria.

It's not a parasite. And about half the world carries it. So most people have no symptoms. It can cause stomach ulcers, but we can test for it and treat it. There is no cleanse required. Oh, so real problems have real medical tests and real medical treatments. Go figure. I mean, that's exactly right. But that's boring and it doesn't sell cleanses. Does this mean the hygiene hypothesis is false? That's another argument I hear people make. We're too clean. We lost all of our good parasites. Yeah, there's actually some interesting research there. So the, I don't know, Hygiene hypothesis suggests that reduced exposure to microbes and parasites in childhood may contribute to allergies and autoimmune diseases.

Farm kids, for example, have lower asthma rates than city kids. Yeah, that's great news for how I grew up because we had a little house up north, like a cottage. And I went there as a lot as a little kid. And my mom tells the story like, oh, he used to play with goose turds and frogs would be running all over. you or you like, I'd put like a frog in my mouth and be like, look, there's a frog in my mouth. Yeah, so I didn't get parasites through that. Holy smokes. I must be immune.

Yeah, we're tougher than we think. So everybody go get some parasites. Don't listen. That is terrible advice, actually. Understanding evolutionary biology is not the same as self-infecting. So the risks of malnutrition, anemia or organ damage from intentionally consuming bacteria far outweigh any theoretical benefits. So don't make yourself do it.

But as a kid, that's normal exposure. So no medical tapeworms. Got it. When I was in law school, I remember one of my friends who was a girl was like, I'm going to ingest a tapeworm. We were just kidding. But we were joking like, hey, we should just ingest a tapeworm and then we can eat as much as we want.

But bad idea, for the record. Yeah. Did she do it? No, no, no. We were just joking around because we ate too much because we're all stressed out. and we had the all you can eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner at the school. And so are there certain foods I should eliminate? I've heard just about everything is bad for my gut health.

Gluten, dairy, sugar, anything that brings you joy, don't eat. Right. There are cases where eliminating foods is necessary for health. True food allergies like peanuts or shellfish, those are real immediate immune responses, and they can be life-threatening. So people can go into anaphylaxis. Those are clearly real. When you see someone swell up, like, what is it, the nutty professor on a flight because of the peanuts?

You know, they can't breathe. That's scary. I was just a couple weeks ago sitting with a friend and he was eating guava. And half hour later, I was in the emergency room with him. He had no idea he was allergic. It was really crazy. I didn't even know. Well, I guess you could be allergic to anything.

And he didn't know, clearly. I don't know. We, like, walked through a farmer's market. And it was just this, yeah, what? I never eat guava. But who knew? But yeah, so things like that happen. And then there's food intolerances.

They're not an immune response. That's a digestive issue like lactose intolerance. That's uncomfortable, but it's not dangerous. And then there's celiac disease, which is an autoimmune reaction to gluten. And about only 1% of the population actually has it. And it requires strict elimination of gluten. And that one is so overblown. So many people like to say they're gluten-free.

But if you really have celiac, I know a guy who's in a band. He's a singer. He has celiac. His band went on and he shared a microphone with the previous singer who had just been drinking beer. And he had a severe reaction just from sharing the microphone. Oh. Like that's serious celiac. That's like those peanut allergies where they're like, don't even open the peanuts on the

because the smell or whatever, that's insane. Yeah, so it's only 1% of the population actually has true gluten intolerance. But then there's the murky category of food sensitivities. They're often self-diagnosed or based on non-validated tests. Sometimes it's just a fad thing to have. Yeah, those are the tests where they prick your finger and they test your blood against 200 different foods, right? Eggs and asparagus or whatever, everything. Yeah, and those food sensitivity tests, they're not scientifically validated.

They test for the common antibody, which is the IgG, and the presence of IgG antibodies to a food. They just show you've eaten it, not what you're sensitive to. So you can have IgG antibodies to foods you eat all the time with no problems. Oh, so people are eliminating food based on bad tests? Yeah, a lot of times, yes, elimination diets, they can be useful, but they're meant to be temporary and systematic. What's happening now is people are cutting out huge categories of food indefinitely, and they're creating deficiencies and anxieties and disordered eating based on internet advice. Yeah, my buddy had a girlfriend a long time ago, and she was like, I'm celiac. And so every time we go out, she'd be like, does this soy sauce have it?

We've got to get it without soy sauce. And it's like, we're at a Thai restaurant. You can't eat any of the sauces. This is going to be a problem. And I remember being like, you got to get this under control. You can't live with this mentally ill person who's going to dictate what everybody can eat. And he's like, I know. This is one of the last straws.

I don't know how much I can deal with this. It turned out that she actually really was. And I felt bad about that because I was like, oh, this nonsense. Like, I can't deal with your self-diagnosed TikTok digestive issue right now. Like, I want to live my life. I don't want to spend 20 minutes talking to the server. They already hate us. But I felt bad for her and I felt guilty about that because for everyone who is really celiac and can't eat anything, it is dealing with real problems.

There's 100. I read a blog on the bulletproof diet thing and now I can't eat the following 600 things. And so, oh my God, how bulletproof are you when you smell gluten and you inflate and you can't eat for three days? I don't know. Gets into our heads. It does. That's the whole orthorexia spiral, right? Heal your gut turns into be afraid of all kinds of foods.

Exactly. Orthorexia is an obsession with eating clean foods to the point that it just becomes psychologically and physically harmful. And a lot of gut health messaging feeds into this idea that the more foods you eliminate, the healthier you are. Which ends with somebody eating five different things and then side-eyeing blueberries or whatever. It can't, yeah. Yeah, it's a fear of food. And people convince themselves, everything is. damaging their gut. That's not gut health, right? That's fear, and sometimes it's an eating disorder. But it is confusing because some foods do really mess people up. Of course they do. And this is where nuance matters. So take the low Fodmap diet. Fodmops stands for a lot of difficult to pronounce words. Yeah, fermentable oligosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides, and polyols.

I don't know. I've never heard of any of this. What Jordan said, yeah. Yes, okay. But it's a diet that's designed for people with IBS. So certain foods like onions, garlic, beans, wheat, and some fruits, they can be really difficult for people to digest, and they can trigger bloating and pain or other symptoms. IBS, I think we defined it earlier, but irritable bowel syndrome. So it just causes tons of gut inflammation and discomfort.

Okay, so you just have to give up a bunch of foods forever? That's the confusion. So a low FODMAP diet, it's not supposed to be forever. It's more like an investigation. You temporarily remove certain foods, then systematically add them back into your diet to figure out which ones are actually causing problems for you. God, that sounds like such a pain in the ass. Nice. Yeah, accidental. The reintroduction phase of the diet is really confusing for people. So they just stop. eating foods without ever figuring out what the actual trigger is. And that's not the protocol. The goal isn't to eat fewer foods forever. The goal is to identify the foods you personally have trouble

with and get as much variety into your diet as possible. But every week I read about another food to be terrified of because it's secretly poisoning you. Today, they were like, there's lead in boba pearls or bubble tea. I'm like, oh my God. Great. I don't know. Lead is in the cassero. Chava farm and then it absorbs. I don't know. I keep reading that lectins are also destroying our guts, that beans are trying to assassinate me. Right.

The lectin thing is big in gut health conversation. So lectins are proteins found in many plants, but especially beans, grains, and legumes. And in very large amounts, raw lectins can be harmful. Do people eat very large amounts of raw beans and grains? Because when I was a kid, I used to play with bean bags in the gym class, and sometimes they'd explode. And this rock-hard bean would come out. Who's eating that? Yeah, who's sucking on that.

I mean, we cook all of that. But there are ways people are doing it. So I had a friend, and she had one of those cool containers on her kitchen that she kept her spaghetti in or whatever, you know, like those glass containers that sit on the counter. And she got into this habit of just taking single pieces of spaghetti and chewing on it, like, like straw or whatever, but she was eating them and mindlessly, like as a habit when she was in the kitchen, she ended up developing thrush, which is like a yeast infection in your mouth. She just got addicted to it. She was eating so much raw pasta that in her mouth and throat was really gross. Narlie. Yeah. That sounds really gross.

Horribly embarrassing. But they figured it out pretty quick. There was no getting around it. Are you eating raw grains? She's like, yeah. Yeah. I. Well, your lips are really chapped, even though it's May and you live in L.A. Yeah, I have a yeast infection in my mouth. What have you been doing? People aren't going to believe the spaghetti story. Oh, I eat raw spaghetti. Okay. Something, yeah. But so when we cook beans and grains and things, that denatures the lectins. So cooked beans, lentils, whole grains, they're fine for most people. There's no evidence that lectins in normal cooked foods are causing gut damage. So real thing, but widely overblown. Again, very rare. But there are books and supplement lines built around avoiding lectins so the misinformation persists.

Yeah, this is all that Dr. Gundry stuff, right? He's like, oh, if you eat this, it's really bad for you and it exaggerates everything and then magically sells like here. Okay, so is there any universal list of foods that everyone should avoid? No, not universally. Unless you have a diagnosed allergy or medical condition, most people can eat gluten and dairy and lectins and nightshades like tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, whatever, without any issue. The problem is that the wellness industry convinces people that normal whole foods are dangerous and we need to be cleansing all the time. And there are all kinds of microbiome testing kits, everyone's favorite thing. mailing poop to a stranger. Are they science or extremely confident poop fortune telling? Like fecal astrology?

Fecal astrology, I like it. The sequencing of those tests is real, but the interpretation is the problem. So here's the thing. We don't actually know what an ideal microbiome looks like because they're all different. Like I said earlier, that would be like saying what an ideal fingerprint looks like. but healthy people vary wildly on diet, geography, genetics, and just lifestyle. So a report that says low, bacteriids, whatever, all of that sounds clinical, but what it means for you specifically or how to fix it, it usually isn't known.

So what are they basing their recommendations on? What are you paying for? For some information and very generic advice, like eat more fiber and vegetables and fermented foods and exercise more. Okay, so a $300 reminder to be an adult, okay? Pretty much, yeah. Not a total scam, but I don't need to fetx my feces to know that I should eat my vegetables. You know deep in your gut that you need to eat more vegetables.

But the testing's real, but the actionable value that's just really limited. It's mostly curiosity. I guess maybe the thrill of mailing shit, I don't know. Yeah, shipping your shite is a fun, $300 curiosity. There's an ex-boyfriend's revenge website, and you can ship them, various animals, poop. Animals. Okay, because I was going to say, whose poop are you shipping? Not human poop.

Yeah, like cow poop to somebody. Oh, my goodness. Okay, gotcha. So if somebody's trying to sell me a microbiome test, just pass. Huh, another pun. Hey, yeah, just definitely save your money. Yeah, and buy vegetables. But why do I keep seeing headlines like scientists to discover,

gut bacteria causes depression or microbiome linked to autism and then nothing about it ever again. Because a lot of these microbiome findings don't replicate. One study finds an association, the next study doesn't. There's often really small sample sizes and inconsistent methods, and that just makes for different results. So if you test thousands of microbes against dozens of outcomes, by chance alone, you'll get significant hits. So the science is confused? I wouldn't say confused, but the science is early. And microbiome research is messy, right?

So, and the exciting findings get published. The we couldn't replicate this studies. They don't go viral. Yeah, good old publication bias. Yeah, exactly, which is, as we know, quite common. And then there's the rodent study problem. Which is what? So a lot of microbiome research is done in,

mice or rats because it's easier to control their environment and manipulate their bacteria. But mice aren't humans. Findings in rodents are interesting. They often just don't translate to what's happening inside the human body. I see. So we need human studies. Are those happening? They are, but human studies are really hard. People eat different things. They live in different environments. They have different genetics, different stress levels. There's just so many variables. So we're in the early days of figuring this out. Very much the early days. And then we have things that are being developed like smart toilets, which are emerging.

And they use sensors and AI and cameras to analyze waste for disease markers and then send data to apps for personalized health tracking. That is just what everyone wants. Another device collecting very personal data. My toilet is going to have more information about me than my. doctor because I'm definitely getting that, by the way. That sounds awesome. It sounds so, I know, I want it. I want it. Wow. So who's getting that information? Because every tech company in history has looked at personal data and basically thought immediately, how can I monetize this? Yeah, that's one of the big unanswered questions. The technology itself is interesting, though. An early detection of disease could be incredibly

valuable. Yeah. How are we going to capitalize on this caca? Right. I guess big tech knows we all use our phones on the toilets, but they might want to know what's happening in the toilet. But I don't know if I'm emotionally prepared for a future where my toilet has a terms of service agreement. Oh, my God, neither am I. I mean, it's certainly raising some privacy questions, but we're taking early, complicated science and turning it into simple, definitive answers. So technology is advancing faster than our understanding of what to do with all this information. And it's so frustrating to see supplement companies making definitive claims based on preliminary research. Okay, so what do we actually know about the gut brain connection? The strongest evidence is the

connection between IBS and mental health. So IBS is what's called a functional gastrointestinal disorder and people can have symptoms like pain, bloating, diarrhea, or constipation. But when doctors look for structural damage or disease, they often don't find. any. And it's surprisingly common, like, roughly one in ten people have IBS. And about 30 to 40 percent of people have functional bowel problems at some point. Wow. Okay. So if I'm having, I don't know, diarrhea every day, I'm not sure functional is the word that comes to mind, but there's got to be people like that. Yeah, you know. And for decades, a lot of patients were basically told, you're just anxious or it's all stress. And it was often really dismissive.

especially toward women. Oh, calm down, Jessica. Right, right. Hey, I don't have it. I mean, the problem is they weren't taking symptoms seriously. But weirdly, they may have been brushing up against a real connection for the wrong reasons. So because we're learning that the gut and brain

are constantly communicating and irritated gut signals the brain that it doesn't feel good, and that contributes to anxiety, depression, and stress levels. So the symptoms weren't imaginary, and they weren't just anxiety. So it's the stomach aches that make people anxious, not the other way around? Yeah, in many cases, yes, which is why treating IBS works best when you treat both ends of the axis.

So this is a huge shift in understanding. And interestingly, some of the treatments that work best for IBS are psychiatric medications and psychological therapies. Wait, so antidepressants are prescribed for IBS. Wow. Yeah, sometimes, but not because it's all in their head, because antidepressants affects serotonin and pain signaling lives in the gut, too. So therapies like CBT and gut-directed hypnotherapy, they can help by changing the gut-brain communication loop. I see.

So you're treating your second brain's headache. Yeah, pretty much. And treatment doesn't make people less anxious necessarily, but improves the communication between the gut and the brain. So we're still learning how the gut and brain are so interconnected, but we do know you can't treat one without considering the other. Nothing says personalized medicine like mailing your literal poop to a startup and just hoping that it emails you back.

More after this. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of the advertisers keeps the lights on around here. all of the deals discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordan harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. Medicines are tricky because often they treat things while also messing up your gut. Antibiotics are said to destroy your microbiome like we said before.

So is that true? I mean, antibiotics do reduce bacterial diversity. That is true. but if you need antibiotics, take them. They save lives. Your gut will recover. So repeated courses of antibiotics or other health issues, they can have longer lasting effects. But for most people, the microbiome is remarkably resilient. And take comfort in knowing that every five to seven days, the intestine regenerates its lining, and every three to five days, the surface layer of the stomach and small intestine that face the acid, that's replaced. So it's not like the entire lining,

but deeper glandular cells live up to 54 days. So just know the gut is constantly renewing itself. Every three to five days, that almost seems excessive. Yeah. Well, the rapid turnover is a defense mechanism. So the stomach produces strong hydrochloric acid and enzymes that break down foods, but that can easily damage tissue. So constant renewal is necessary to prevent ulcers or even self-digestion. Are you saying my stomach can eat me? I mean, under the wrong circumstances, stomach acid can absolutely damage tissue. What about resistance to antibiotics?

Should you be worried about that as well? I know that's a different skeptical Sunday, probably. Yeah, I mean, that's a different issue. It's a serious one. but overuse of antibiotics is contributing to antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which is a public health crisis. But the solution isn't to avoid antibiotics when you need them, but when they're necessary, take the full course as prescribed. Or you could give yourself all kinds of avoidable issues. So you don't want to have to have a fecal transplant.

Jeez, yeah. Fecal transplant, come on. Is this the most logical microbiome intervention or the most absurd sounding one. I don't know. It sounds horrifying. Yeah. Fecal microbiota transplantation or FMT or poop transplants. They're real medicine. It's for a condition called C-diff, and it's actually incredibly effective. What is C-diff because it sounds like a sound cloud rapper? That's what I think when I hear C-diff. C-diff's album just dropped. That's right. It's, there's a joke there about dropped. Yeah, just dropped in your smart toilet. C-diff is unpleasant.

It typically occurs after antibiotic use or abuse, but it's a bacterium that causes severe diarrhea, fever, nausea, abdominal pain by inflaming the colon. It's also highly contagious, so look out. Okay, and the cure is somebody else's bacteria-ridden turds shoved into your turd compartment manually. Yeah, you're not wrong. But if it's a healthy microbial community, yes, that is pretty much what happens.

Okay. They take a stool from a healthy donor. This is serious, Jordan. I know, but I'm still going to laugh because it's ridiculous and I'm 12 years old. Okay. They take a stool from a healthy donor, process it, and transplant it

into a patient's colon. So the goal is to restore a healthy, diverse microbiome. An FMT has about an 80 to 90% cure rate for recurrent C-DIF. It's been a game changer for patients who have recurrent infections. I'm so curious about the mechanics of this. I've got to look it up because... Don't look. No, don't Google it. Don't look it up.

Okay, yeah, speaking of algorithm going insane. Because I'm like, how do they get it in there? How high up are they placing it? And then is it like, hey, try not to poop for three days. days because it's got to do its thing. Don't let it just come out in an hour. Are they making you hold it? Do you want to know the person who's shit you're getting? Yeah, I don't think I do. I don't know. I don't want any part of this. Hopefully I never need it. I could never look you at the eye again. That's right. Yeah. Gosh. Does it treat any other conditions? Because I'm just dying for an excuse to

get this done now. Of course. Just for shits and giggles, if you will. That's where it gets into experimental territory. So there's research on FMT for ulcerative colitis, since there's some promising results there, but it's just being explored for other conditions like IBS, obesity, autism, depression, yeah, all kinds of things. The results are mixed, but people are doing it anyway. And I... Wait, anyway, people are DIYing poop transplants? No. Yeah, yeah, they are. That is a fact. And it's really dangerous. So you can buy, I don't recommend this, but I'm just stating a fact. You can buy DIY FMT kits online.

And some people are doing this at home with stool from family members or friends. Oh my God. That just seems like a terrible idea. Imagine that house party, by the way, guys. Like, hey, guys, everyone come over on Friday night. I have a great idea. You're going to love it. Remember Tom's Tupperware party? It's kind of like that. I've never been that close to anybody.

Oh, man. You're going to need Tupperware, but it's not quite the same thing. Oh, God. Gross. It's just such a terrible idea. But FMT, I mean, it obviously could transmit infections. People have actually died from contaminated FMT home kits. No. Oh, man. Imagine explaining that. Yeah, that's when you get to the pearly gates. Not what you want to. be known for. But medical FMT uses screen donors. Random poop from your cousin at your house party is not screened. Poop smoothie in the bum. Do not do that. Poop smoothie. Oh, no, stop. But the fact that FMT works for C-diff shows that the microbiome

really does matter. Oh, absolutely. But it also shows that we need rigorous testing before we apply it to every condition. One thing that's bothering me is if we treat the gut as the answer to mental health, doesn't that kind of let society off the hook all over the place? I mean, you got poverty, you got trauma, inequality, addiction issues, all kinds of untreated actual mental health that people would need something a little bit more serious intervention for. And it's kind of like, oh, no, it's just your gut biome.

I don't know. It seems like it's too simple of a solution. I mean, I'm sure it could be misused or whatever. but the fact is the gut brain connection is real, but it's not the only connection, right? So mental health, it's not just biology. It's also those things, housing, safety, work, discrimination, community, all of those things. Yeah, you can't probiotic your way out of structural inequality if that's causing new problems. And the market to fix your gut, fix your brain can be a distraction from fixing conditions making people sick in the first place. So the gut health industry is reductionist, and the advice is always the same. Eat better,

sleep, manage stress, all things which are much easier when you have a little bit of money. Yeah, it's very reductionist. It reduces complex societal problems to a simple biological explanation, your gut bacteria. Then it sells you a simple biological solution, supplements. But life's not that simple. So fresh produce is expensive. Fremented foods are expensive. Managing stress is hard when you're working multiple jobs. Sleep is hard in unstable housing. So the wellness industry steps in and says, can't afford real change, take this expensive supplement. That's not health. That's a subscription model. And often the people who need help the most can afford it the least, I would imagine. Yeah. And the real solutions like food access, health care, working conditions,

affordable housing, all of this, those don't get attention because they're not profitable. Right. Okay. So what should you actually do? What can you control? Keep it boring and evidence-based. Eat lots of real whole foods. Diversity is shown to matter. It's easier than it sounds. A variety of herbs, spices, different beans, different greens. That all counts. Don't eat the same thing every day. Like the same five foods forever. Throw in some fermented foods you like. Throw in some fiber. And understand that real whole food. foods beat expensive supplements. And pay attention to how foods make you feel, I suppose. I know a lot of people can't do too much fiber, et cetera. Yeah, right. I mean, there's conditions like SIBO and IBS where fiber can worsen your symptoms.

But you're right. Listen to your body. If something consistently makes you feel bad, don't force it. The hardest practice for a healthy gut is stress management. The gut brain axis works both ways and chronic stress affects your gut. So mind-body interventions like meditation, yoga, deep breathing, different kinds of therapy, they can actually help gut symptoms. So the relaxation response has been shown to help IBS symptoms.

CBT and hypnotherapy work for some people. I've just read a study about sticking your tongue out for 40 seconds every morning can help with inflammation. That was a study because that sounds completely. fake. It was a very small study. Yeah. I was just reading all this stuff preparing before we talked and it was just something that stuck out in my mind. Like, what if there is something as simple as sticking your tongue out or is it just sitting and breathing for 40 seconds? It's actually helping. But regardless, your mental state affects your gut state too. Sure. Okay. So does working out affect my gut? That's the best thing I can do for my mental health. Oh, big time. Movement and exercise, that's shown to increase microbial diversity. You don't need to be an athlete, regular walking counts, and understand changes take time. So what works for someone else might not work for you. You can't optimize your way to perfection.

So your microbiome, it doesn't need to be fixed. It's not broken. So it's basically eat real food, manage stress, sleep, and move. The least sexiest. advice possible. Right. Which why it doesn't sell supplements, but it's what the evidence supports. But if you have persistent GI symptoms, we're talking three months or more, especially if they're affecting your quality of life. If you see blood in your stool, if you have unintended weight loss or severe pains, don't just take supplements and hope it goes away. Yeah, you go to the urgent care, you guys. Don't go to TikTok. So many people are doing that now, though, and anyone selling a cure for leaky gut or parasite cleanses without medical testing or selling those expensive

microbiome testing kits or the supplements claiming to fix your gut brain access or telling you to avoid entire food groups without medical diagnosis. That is all red flags. Anyone who diagnosed you via the internet. Yeah, correct. So where is this field going? What is the future here? Well, I think the future of medicine will involve much more integration between gastroenterology and psychiatry. So we're already seeing it. Gastroenterologists prescribing any depressants, psychiatrists asking about gut symptoms. The artificial separation between mental health and gut health, that's breaking down and that's a really good thing. Because they're undeniably connected. That's crazy.

Undeniably, yeah. But the research is in its infancy. So we have to be patient and look at any new findings critically. I think we'll develop more targeted microbiome-based therapies, not generic probiotics, but specific bacterial strains or bacterial products for specific conditions that have real clinical trial data. Ooh, designer bacteria. So forget the Gucci bag. I want that Gucci bacteria spring collection.

Gross. It does worry me, though, saying that treat. treatments won't be affordable. Will they work is the main question. But when they do, who gets access? Look out for gut insurance. We'll end up with expensive microbiome-based therapies that most people can't afford, at least at first, while the cheap supplements that don't actually work continue to dominate the market. Yeah, that's the American healthcare system in a nutshell, unfortunately. But you're an ecosystem. You're not a machine. Your gut microbiome is complex and interconnected. But I swear most of you are probably fine.

Yeah, wow. If you have real genuine gut problems, talk to a real gastroenterologist. If somebody's trying to sell you a cleanse or a supplement or a testing kit, ask them for the peer-reviewed evidence. Meanwhile, go eat some vegetables and maybe some yogurt, the regular kind, not the $15 probiotic one, unless you happen to prefer that for some reason. Thanks, Jess, for helping us cut through the crap on this about the gut biome. And thanks to you all for listening.

suggestions for future episodes of skeptical Sunday to Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her substacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to those in the show notes. Her work is on Instagram at Never Met Jessica's. And they want you to send graphic photos of any FMTs, at home FMTs that you guys do. I cannot wait. for my GMs. Yes.

That's right. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis,

Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and I'm definitely not a doctor.

Also, we, of course, try to get these as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even when it's fact-checked. So consult a qualified professional before applying anything you hear on the show,

especially if it's about your health and well-being. Remember, we rise by others, share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you'll apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. Chess isn't just a game. You're about to hear a preview where

Danny Wrench shares how buildingchess.com put him face-to-face with cheaters, death threats, and a past he had to rewrite to survive. I was born into a cult. As I talked about it more and more, I've gotten better at just saying that, naming it for what it was. The collective itself was called the Church of a Moral Consciousness. My generation, within a couple of years, was part of the first group of kids that were being born into the collective, which, again, at that point, it was full communism. People's finances were merged. When you came to the collective, you gave up all of your material belongings. You just sort of look at it and go, this was fucked up.

This was not okay. There is no excuse to be made for this. And then Western media was paying attention to chess for the first time, maybe since the Bobby Fisher in the 70s. This movie had come out, and these two kids trapped in a cult were basically under house arrest and didn't have anything else to do. And anything that Stephen Camp was fond of, everybody was into, right? He was literally in charge of every human being in the collective. I went from zero to being one of the top kids in the country. Within two years, I was already an All-American. I was one of the top-rated players. And I've worked very hard to heal my relationship with

my own abusers, not because I'm trying to excuse their behavior, but because I really do believe that forgiveness is not rewriting the past. It's freeing yourself from it. And so with Chess.com, accidental success 15 years later. So we have 25 million games a day, 623 games finishing every second. You can have a different relationship with your experiences if you want to. The obstacle can be the way and you can overcome hard shit. That was my goal with this. To hear the story of how Danny Wrench got on the hit list, Check out episode 1289 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.