The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1368: Predatory Faux Pro You Know Must Go | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: August 14, 2026

A massage therapist you vouched for turns out to be unlicensed and a predator. How can you make up for your lapse in judgment? It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1368On This Week's Feedback Friday:You're a massage therapist who vouched for a longtime colleague — then learned he'd never been licensed, was working under his wife's name, and had confessed to assaulting 15 women on the table. Despite this all being brought to light, he's still illegally working from an app. How do you protect your community from this creep and recover trust in your own judgment?You're a therapist who has spent years building boundaries against an abusive mother — the one who moved her deadbeat, family-abandoning father into the house and drafted your brothers as his unpaid nurses. There may be a fortune stashed in his home. You just hung up on your dad. Is it finally time to go no-contact?You're careful — only ever anonymous nudes, nothing identifiable. Then a cute stranger on Grindr coaxes out your number and Instagram, and by morning he's got your contact list, screenshots, and a 10-second ultimatum. You're blind with adrenaline, fumbling privacy settings. Do you cave, or call the bluff?Recommendation of the Week: Squirrel Boxes — a subscription of squirrel-themed puzzle feeders that turns the rodents raiding your yard into the best low-stakes entertainment on your street; use code JORDAN for 15% off.You're 27, and the thing you want most in life is to be a husband and father — but you've never had a real relationship. Then Sara, your roommate's ex (whom you cleared it with, like a mensch), started talking to you every day, and it finally felt different. Two months in, hopes sky-high, she ended it. Do you fight for the friendship, or walk?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: The Perfect Jean: 15% off first order: theperfectjean.nyc, code JORDAN15K12: Learn more at k12.com/jordanSimpliSafe: 50% off + 1st month free: simplisafe.com/jordanWhatnot: Start selling today: whatnot.com/sellSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. We had the best time in Victoria, BC, staying with our friend Chad, who lives up there, also happens to be an incredible fitness trainer, leave it to Chad to sneak a strength training block into a relaxing vacation. But staying with somebody local, it made the whole trip feel different. It wasn't the tourist version of Victoria. It was the Here's What You Actually Need to See version. We flew on a seaplane, wandered Government Street, and Fantan Alley, found an amazing

coffee spot, hiked Mount Douglas Park for this incredible 360-degree view over the whole city. and that's the kind of travel experience people actually remember. It's also what makes listing your space on Airbnb in Canada so practical. While you're away, your home doesn't have to sit empty. It can become part of someone else's trip. Maybe you love your quiet street, your walkable neighborhood, the coffee shop around the corner, the nearby trails, the cozy backyard at your stay,

or just the feeling of coming back to a real home at the end of the day. Those are the details guests love because they make a trip feel local, personal, and memorable. And while guests get to experience your neighborhood the way you do, your home can bring in extra income to put towards your next trip. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com. I started or not in 2013, and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non-technical

people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end, and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually. be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.com. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer. The trusty conveyor belt moving these tasty existential morsels around this revolving sushi bar of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. Nice. Omedito goes I'm asked for that nickname. Wow.

Only the veggie rolls, obviously. I don't even know what you can eat anymore. Oxygen. The OG vegan meal. Yeah. Which makes you what the sushi chef who yells, what do they say when you walk in? It's like, I go. It's like, everyone does it. And you just think, how tired are you by the end of your shift to having to do that? Without looking up from his knife when people walk in, that's you.

Yeah, the first few times I heard that, I was like, why are they yelling? Why are they yelling at me? Since I didn't eat sushi until I was basically an adult. No, until I was an adult for sure. Jen or whoever I was with was like, oh, yeah, they do that. That's like a thing. It means welcome or something. It was my previous girlfriend who moved to Japan

and was the assistant to the U.S. ambassador. She had to explain all this stuff to me. But Japan's, you've been there. There's a lot of first times in Japan, right? Weird vending machines, really drunk people at 7 o'clock in the morning coming back from the night before that are sleeping in a bush

because they had to drink with their boss till 1 o'clock in the morning. And then also, I think the most shocking was going to a restaurant and having them explain that they were closed when I could see behind the hostess that they were just full. There's tons of people.

There were people waiting. And then my girlfriend was like, they don't want white people in here. Yeah, that's a classic. And I was like, wait, you could do that? She's like, in Japan, yeah, that's a thing. That's a thing. No white people.

No non-Japanese, basically. They love their reservations. We've talked about this on the show. Oh, that's right. The reservations thing. All right, what are we talking about again? All right, on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills

of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-formed conversations with a variety of amazing folks, money-laundering experts, Russian spies usually former, cold case homicide investigators. This week we had journalist Annie Jacobson on biological warfare. Wow, this one was, you heard her with her nuclear warfare, how everyone's going to die, it's maybe going to take 72 hours, and then anybody left is going to envy the dead.

biological warfare somehow even more scary, even more disgusting and more diabolical. Very interesting conversation. And she delivers everything in this sort of very calm therapist voice. So the juxtaposition is chef's kiss. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on gut health. On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, play obnoxious soundbites, and walk a tightrope across the abyss of your most confounding dilemmas. I'm fully settled back into life back home, so by the time this airs, Gabe, you'll be in Spain somewhere and around and around she goes where she stops nobody knows nobody knows i'm in new york right now so if you hear ambulance sirens at the background that's why but uh yeah i'll be in spain when this

episode comes out and by the way if any of you are listening in spain i will be traveling around your country all month so draw me an email send me a dm saludem per favor and uh i will be in italy in early september first the south and the north and then from mid-september to the end of October, I'll be in Berlin. So anybody who's in any of these places, I would love to hear from you, and I would love to see if we line up somewhere. So jealous. My old stomping grounds, not Spain. I've never been there at all. Not Italy. I've only been there for a brief time. But Berlin is awesome, and Germany is awesome. Berlin's the New York of Germany, right? People go to New York and they're like, America's amazing. And I'm like, yeah, this is a very unique place in the world, let alone the country.

Yeah, this is not Germany. This is an island unto itself. But anyway, maybe we can do some listener meetups this summer. We did one in New York. It was so fun. It would be really cool to meet more of our European show family. Yeah, our European fans are awesome. And I kind of appreciate that, you know, Americans listening to an American hosted podcast, okay, you get a little kind of a halo effect when you're like, oh, Europeans like us too. It's like, we still think people with British accents are smarter. It's just a thing. It's not going to go away in my lifetime. That whole like, who Europe's fancy. Now I know why you keep insisting on saying grandiose. Is that not how you say grandiose?

You're just cosplaying as a British person. Grandios. Grandios. Do people say grandiose? That just sounds so Michigan to me. It's grandiose, bro. All right. I might have to meet you somewhere, Gabe.

Scratch that travel itch and cross a few Stasi-related curiosities off my list over there in Berlin. All right, as usual, we got some fun ones and doozies, and I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Namaste, Gabe. I'm a yoga instructor, and I'm a deep feel. weird that they left you out of the Namaste. A little, but I get it. I get it. It's kind of like, if you spoke a language and I didn't, they would use that

to greet you, but not me, because I don't understand. They could have been like Guten Tog and normal hello game. That's right. That's right. I'm a yoga instructor and a massage therapist in a city on the West Coast. I work at a spa and at another fitness club, and I also own my own small massage studio. Sometime back, a male therapist I'd worked with in the past was hired at the spa. The strange thing was, I knew him as John, but he was hired as Alex. I'd also worked with his wife, who was also a massage therapist, and her name is Alex.

About a year later, I was asking a female therapist if she wanted to work part-time at the fitness club since I'm overbooked there. John slash Alex overheard and said he was interested, so I thought, why not? And we got the hiring process started. The day before we were going to onboard him at the club, this was a few months ago. The spa manager pulled me aside and told me that he had to be. been fired from the spa because he was using his wife's massage license and he has never been licensed. This is like a plot line from Beef Season 2. Ridiculous. I haven't seen it. There's a whole thing

about this. Oh yeah. Well, there's a fake physiotherapist. But it's like it's the idea that you could get away with this is long term is sort of laughable because it just doesn't, you're eventually going to get caught. Come on. He had legally changed his name from John to Alex to work as a licensed massage therapist using his wife's license, and to pass the background check, he would say that he preferred to not identify as any gender. This was a shock, since I had known him and his wife for years, and they always seemed so sweet. While I was reeling from this news, she dropped a bomb. The massage board had called and told her that there was a complaint against him for sexual assault at our spa. When the manager talked to him, he confessed to sexually abusing 15 women on the massage table at the spa by going down on them in the

middle of the massage or rubbing himself up on them. What? Oh my God. That's brazen. Apparently, some of the women were okay with this and were paying him, but many were not. Wow. So some were just like, hey, what do you do? Actually, uh, here's a hundred. See you next week. That's, wow, this is so insane. Not that you're going to be able to answer this game, but how do you even start that. That's a hell of a Hail Mary pass, right? And how much do you make per hour doing that, asking for a friend? How much does surprise Cunnelingis pay? That's what I mean, what is going on here? Something tells me it didn't begin with a very fair offer. Yeah. It wasn't like, so this is on the menu, if you would like, if you would not like, that is fine. Something tells me he did it and then,

oh man, I cannot relate to this, obviously. This is just, wow. I've, I don't think I've ever heard anything like this. Holy smokes. There had been three complaints, but our manager believed John over the women, and two of the women had their memberships revoked for quote-unquote lying. Oh, that's terrible. That is really bad. How did that happen in this day and age?

I wonder if the spa manager was a man or a woman. I mean, I have my suspicions, but I guess you can't really. Whole bad thought. Yeah. I also wonder how much of an investigation there really was, or if they just immediately dismissed these women who came forward because they like this guy? Yeah, I wanted the same.

Was the manager like, ha, broads always fabricating tails. There was a manager like, we looked into it. Everyone loves John. There's no evidence that he did any of this because obviously there's no camera in a massage room. I'm sorry, but it's best you don't come back. But even then, to revoke their memberships,

I don't know. That seems harsh. It does. Isn't the better response, hey, look, we don't have any evidence that this happened, but obviously we're going to keep an eye on it. We treat these things very seriously. You won't be booked with John anymore, yada, yada.

Yeah, you're welcome to come if you want, but we under, I don't know. Also, three women, three, and it was only when the massage board called that the manager decided to take this seriously and talk to him. Now that I think about it, that's even more crazy, right? Like, hey, massage board, three women have said this man sexually assaulted him. What's the usual protocol? Well, let me look up his license. And then they're like, he's not licensed.

Well, now you're fired. It's like, wait, wait, so the three sexual assaults you were just going to maybe be okay with or like that was a, you weren't sure. Now it's, oh, you're not licensed. E. Gads, we got to let this guy go. I mean, that is just insane. So this manager screwed up big time. How does this kind of thing happen? Thankfully, this came out just in time for me to stop the hiring process at the fitness club.

When he wasn't hired, the mask came off and he went scorched earth on the spa manager, threatening her. Ooh, so it is the spa manager's a woman. Oh, my, wow. Okay. I thought you'd enjoy that detail. I shouldn't be surprised. But that, well, yeah, that was unexpected. Oh, man.

My mind is going to some weird places, dude. was the manager his first client? Oh, big if true. We're speculating wildly here, but I am very curious about why this woman took John slash Alex's side against multiple women accusing him, that she might even already know the women from the club. Like this is what is going on here? When he wasn't hired, the mask came off and he went scorched earth on the spa manager, threatening her through text, which was dumb,

and messaging her husband and the spa owner saying that the spa manager was doing meth and crack at work and sleeping with people in the massage rooms. Also, big if true, if doing a ton of heavy lifting here. I mean, that's, he doesn't even come up with a believable character assault and he puts it in writing. This guy's a genius. This is so baffling. He confesses to assaulting 15 women right off the bat and then goes scorched earth on the manager. Is this guy just like out of his tree? This is not just a predator sociopath type. This guy's mentally unwell in other ways. That's the vibe I'm getting. Thankfully, these claims were too ridiculous for anyone to believe, but it was still stressful for her. I'm still shaking, thinking that I almost sent my yoga students to him at my club.

I feel guilty for just coming so close to putting them in danger and for vouching for him, on two occasions, actually. I assume that because the massage board was aware of this, his wife's license would be revoked and he wouldn't be able to use it anymore. But last week, I found out from a friend that he had done a couples massage with John through an app that connects massage therapists to clients who want massages in their homes. I'm so angry that this license is still active and that he's still out in the city posing as a licensed massage therapist. It is terrifying that he's going to women's homes. On the app, he's listed as non-binary, which he isn't. It's been reported to the app that he isn't licensed, but as long as this license is active, he will continue to hurt women, which is very

upsetting. I'm sure his wife knew he was using her license since he legally changed his name to hers. That's pretty hard to miss as a spouse. I don't know if she knows about the sexual assaults, though. John should be in jail. I have other massage therapists who feel the same way and are willing to take action once we decide what that action should be. Complicating all of this, though, is that they have young children, and he also recently got another woman pregnant. I don't want the children to suffer, but I also don't want other women to suffer. The whole thing is such a mess, and I feel sick. I'm angry, shocked, sad, and so shaken that I didn't pick up on any of this from him. I thought I had better intuition. Interestingly, the one time I got a massage from him before I knew any of this, my stomach started hurting a few minutes in, and I had to

get off the table and stop the massage. That has never happened in me before. 20 minutes later, my stomach was fine. I wonder if my body knew more than I did at the time. Wow, fascinating. Yeah, it might have. I don't know how much stock to put in these things always, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. It's the Gavin De Becker gift of fear thing. How can I stop this guy and make sure he doesn't work in the city again? Should I call the massage board and ask that his wife's license be suspended? Should I check every once in a while to see if anyone has hired him or anyone with that name? Is there anything else I can do? Or should I stay out of it? Also, should I tell him? his wife about the sexual assaults? And how can I trust my judgment going forward? Signed,

looking for a rundown on how to take down this gross clown who gave the wrong kind of rubdowns. Wow, what a situation. Very worrisome, very dark. So first of all, I am so sorry you brushed up against this guy. Ooh. Interesting. Oh, yeah. Sorry, poor choice of words. I'm sorry that you interacted with this guy. He's the one doing the brushing. That's right. We're Sorry that your career's frotaged. Yeah. We're sorry. Your professional life and this guy's professional life dry humped for a period of time.

All right. It's getting worse and worse. Seriously, this is so unsettling. To find out somebody that you know has hurt people and you didn't clock it for maybe a long time, you might have even sent people to this creep or almost did and that you yourself were on his table. I get why all of this weighs so heavily on you. The good news is you finally found out what was going on. You stopped the hiring process before he could join another company.

And it sounds like more and more people are catching on to what this creep does. The fact that he reacted this way, going on the attack and becoming increasingly unhinged, that really just confirms that this guy is a disaster in a loose cannon and should not be anywhere near this industry. This guy's not safe on so many levels. Although I got to say, Gabe, and this does not excuse any of the abusive stuff this guy has done, of course. But I find it fascinating that some of the women were like, oh, yeah, no, I'm down. Here's an extra Benjamin for your services. I mean, that is unexpected.

You don't hear about that very often. It's the other way around, usually. Yeah, usually it's men paying women for this kind of thing. If the spa down the street is any indication. Does this gesture towards your living room? I did. Yeah, it's in my living room. No, so there's across the street from my old place,

there's a plaza that has like a bodega and some other stores, like a pet supply store or whatever. And there's a spa. And I'm like, oh, cool, there's a massage place. over there. So I checked the reviews and there weren't that many. And I was like, all right, whatever, I'll just, I'll drive there one time and check it out. And I never really got a chance to do that because I missed a turn once. And I was like, oh, I'll go through, you know how strip malls have like a little road behind them for the dark? That's an alley. It's got the dumpsters

and there's a wall before the houses start. I drove down the alley and outside of the spa, there were like six folding chairs and there were a bunch of Asian women in cocktail dresses at 10, 30 in the morning sitting in the chairs smoking, and I was like, oh, it's that kind of spa. There weren't spa clothes, but there weren't spa clothes from, like, you know, Hanoi, if you know what I'm saying. And I was like, oh, I'm going to check the reviews. And I said, oh, I already did. There's nothing in there.

And she checked the reviews. And there was one star review from a woman. It's like, I walked in there and she asked me what I was doing there. And if I was there picking up my husband and I said, no, I want a massage. And she made me wait and wait and then told me to leave. And then I was like, yeah, it's trying to get rid of you. And then there was a five-star massage that said something like, their hand e-work is the best in town, really love their special.

Like, it was all gross innuendos written by some purve. And I was like, oh, yeah, my wife was, Jen was laughing so hard because she's like, oh, it's that kind of place. And my dad keeps asking her, hey, what about that spa? What about that? We're like, Dad, it's a rub and tug. And he's like, oh, sorry, I forgot. I forgot.

Flot twist. Your dad left the review. Sure you did, Don. Sure you forgot. Oh, man. Anyway, okay. So, again, it's usually men, paying women for this kind of thing. It's also interesting because if John were a woman, and there are untold thousands of women doing this work under the guise of being massage therapists, definitely a fringe job, a little risky. But I think many people in 2026 would kind of shrug and go, like, okay, it's sex work. It's not my thing, but it doesn't really affect me. I don't love it.

But again, not my problem. This guy's a sex worker, too. but he's also a predator at the same time. Yes, but possibly not in that order. Right. It almost sounds like his predatory stuff is a screen for who's going to become a client. Like, I'm just going to assault them, and if they're down, then they're a client. That's what it sounds like to me.

So is he a legit sex worker who's also predatory, or is he a predator using sex work as some kind of cover? Or is he like, well, I'm going to do it either way. Might as well get paid for it. Yeah, that's a good point, right? It's just so wildly fascinating to me. So, okay, I'm very sorry about all this. for you, for the victims, for what this might mean for his family, but I am really glad you guys learned the truth. So, no, given what this guy did, I definitely would not stay out of it completely.

I think you have some duty to hold this guy accountable and do right by the women that he's hurt, the women he might hurt in the future, but that doesn't have to fall entirely on you. I would absolutely call the massage board and make another report. Maybe together with your spa manager who has more information, maybe with a bunch of your colleagues, I would also report him to any app that you find him listed on and let them know what's going on. How many massage apps can there be? Maybe there's five, report them to all five. With these licensing bodies and agencies, the more reports, the better, they can often be overwhelmed or they're asleep at the wheel. Sometimes they need several reports to realize that

they actually have to do something. You know, oh, it's just a bad boss retaliating. No, we got three calls, you know. And the more evidence you can provide them, police reports, termination notices, communications, et cetera, the better. And I'm guessing it's up to the massage board to decide whether to revoke his license. Well, his wife's license, he doesn't have one. I'm not sure it's on you alone to make that call. But when you talk to them, I would absolutely tell them that you know he does not have a license, that he is using someone else's license.

I think they'd be very interested to know about that. My hope is that they investigate, they talk to him, they talk to his wife, they see what's going on, and they make the right call. they revoke her license and or report this to the relevant authorities. Now, about the wife. Oh, boy, I have so many questions about her. Same. So you said you're sure she knew he was using her license since he legally changed his name to hers.

That is probably true. I suppose he could have given her some other story about why he changed his name and she has no idea that he ever used her license. But how strange, you couldn't pick any other name you have to pick mine? Yeah, that's weird. Surely she asked why that was the case. Although if the massage board is aware of a complaint, and is, I assume, looking into it, then presumably she would hear from them, right? So if she didn't know that he was using her license before, she must know now.

I assume so. It's also possible, like our friend said, that she might be fully in cahoots with her husband on the license, but maybe she doesn't know he's sexually assaulting people. Yes, but then she has to have an inkling that something isn't right with her husband. I mean, he's having a child with another woman, right? So she at least knows her husband's having some side quests. True. Yeah, she can't be totally in the dark. If you know about the other kid, his wife does too. Also, maybe don't let someone else, even your spouse, use your license in the first place. She took a very big risk there. And for what? Because her husband didn't feel like putting in the work to go to massage school himself? Literally. This guy is such a piece of work. Is this laziness? Is

an entitlement? Is this just, well, I don't actually care about massage. I just, I need a cover to assault people and get some sex work clients as quickly as possible. Whatever his reasons, his wife could have said, uh, no. This is, this is risky and an ethical. and illegal, get your own license, dude. Yeah. To be fair, though, they don't teach Kuna Lingus in massage school. That's true.

This dude's self-taught. Yeah, bro did an independent study. Dude's an auto-dict. Oh, come on. All right. So about him changing his name using Alex's license, that was good. I'm just jealous I didn't think of it.

My understanding is that there are a number of crimes in there. That depends on the state you live in, but here in California, and this is not legal advice, obviously, the most direct charge would probably be false personation. That's when somebody impersonates another person and performs an act that benefits the impersonator or could expose the impersonated person to liability. Another crime here would be identity theft, using another person's identifying information

for an unlawful purpose. An interesting side note here, if Alex gave John permission to use her license, that doesn't necessarily make the underlying unlawful impersonation legitimate in the eyes of the law. Another charge could be theft by false pretenses. That's when customers and employer and insurer, whatever, they paid someone money because they were led to believe they were properly credentialed. Like if you hire Gabriel and you get legal advice from him, that is theft by false pretenses. Just because you gave him the money thinking he was a lawyer but you handed it over willingly, that doesn't mean it's not a crime. He stole from you. He just conned you out of it.

There's also forgery filing false documents. If he signed his wife's name, altered a certificate, or submitted fraudulent paperwork to an agency. There's also perjury. If materially false information was knowingly placed in his name change document, which, come on, they're going to ask you why you change your name. It's because you want to use your wife's massage license, and you're what, just going to say you really like your wife's name, so you're changing it?

That's nonsense, and they're probably going to throw that one at him, too. In California specifically, maybe there's other states on the West Coast, too. I'm not sure. The Massage Therapy Act explicitly prohibits impersonating a certificate holder and allowing a non-certified person to use one's certificate. So, Alex, the real one, could also face revocation or discipline if she knowingly cooperated with him on this whole license thing. She could potentially be treated as an ater and a better or conspirator

rather than merely as an innocent identity theft victim, which is what she's going to try to say when all of this hits the fan. Damn, yeah, this would be such an interesting case for a prosecutor. Like, they've broken so many different laws. No kidding. There's so many angles here. It's also salacious and would probably make the news. Come on.

So honestly, I don't know whether you should try to tell her what's going on. Part of me feels bad for this lady who might not know the full truth about her husband and whose family is about to fall apart when he gets sued or arrested or blacklisted or all of these. Another part of me strongly suspects she does know what's going on. And whether she does or not, she broke the law and made a huge mistake by letting him use her license. She helped make this possible whether she understood that or not. So I'm kind of like, sorry for what might be coming, but Tafkishka. Beyond that, yeah, it would be a nice thing to do to periodically check to see if anybody else has hired this guy.

And if they have, you notify these establishments or apps in the way that we just talked about. It doesn't have to be a full-time job for you. But it might be a solid act of service to protect other people. You could also post what you know, sticking to the facts, of course, on any public pages he has. If he's got a Yelp page or these apps allow for ratings and reviews, that's another good way to warn people. again, you've got to be sure what you post on there. You don't want to defame him or say, I think he did this. You have to stick to the facts of the ones that you can prove. I might also set a Google Alert for both of their names. You might get a hit whenever they're,

well, their names are the same, I guess now. But you might get a hit whenever they're listed on an app where they join a practice or they create a new website or they end up on another spa's website. Also, how many massage apps could there be? I said before, there's only going to be like a handful, okay? Send a form letter to all of the major ones, warning them about John, include his license number in advance so they don't allow him on the platform. All sound advice, Jordan, I'm just still thinking about how she felt when she was on this guy's massage table. It's so interesting. I know you're beating yourself up a little bit for not picking up on any of this sooner. You thought you had better intuition. What I'm hearing is that you probably did have good intuition.

And, you know, we have many different intelligences. Our cognition is just one of them. It sounds like what you felt was a more primitive intelligence, potentially picking up on something, which is very interesting. Again, the gift of fear thing from Gavin DeBacker, not perfect, but very powerful. I actually think it's kind of great that she recognizes that she had that moment. That should tell her that her awareness was not completely offline. Some part of her was registering that something wasn't right. She just didn't understand what it was or know what to do about it. True. Yeah, that's actually comforting on some level. The next time she gets that feeling, she might go, okay, I know what this is now. Now, I got to listen to it and at least be cautious.

Now, obviously, you can't go to the police and say, hey, you need to look into this guy like I got a stomach ache on his massage table. But if you ever get that feeling from someone again, maybe you ask around about the person, maybe you keep a closer eye on them, maybe you keep your distance and, for example, hold off on recommending them for a job until you have a clearer picture of their character. So I get why your self-confidence took a hit because of all of this, but your road back to trusting your judgment in the future is realizing that your judgment was

working on some level and you just needed to make some more room for it. And it just took an experience like this to learn how to best work with your intuition. I think it's really hard to trust that voice until it's tested. I totally agree, Gabe. It's kind of mysterious, the whole intuition thing. It can easily misfire. It can be informed by earlier experiences. It needs to be backed up by evidence if you're going to act on it or accuse somebody of something, which is where the other intelligences become super important. But now that you know the truth, because this dude, when they asked him what he did, he just seemingly crumbled and confessed to all of it. All that matters is what you do now. So sorry you have to deal with this. Sorry for the difficult

feelings this whole thing brings up. And I'm sorry for the people that this guy heard. I'm very sorry for the women who made complaints and were dismissed as liars. I'm actually still shocked to hear that. But I have a feeling this guy's not going to be able to hurt people much longer. rooting for you and your team, and good luck. You know what else is going down on you? The sticker prices on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by The Perfect Gene.

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This episode is also sponsored by K-12. Having two kids has made it very clear to us that children learn in completely different ways. Our daughter's been able to sit quietly and flip through books when she was two. You give her a task. She has the focus to sit down, work through it and finish it. Her older brother, kind of the complete opposite. it. He learns best when somebody is actively engaging him and keeping him involved. Neither way is better or worse. They're just different kids with different needs. And a new school year is a good

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the number 12.com slash Jordan. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. It's your support of our advertisers that keeps us going. All of the deals discounts and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 30-year-old female working as a mental health therapist in a different state from the rest of my family. I've recently been doing a lot of work around setting boundaries with my parents due to their inability to take responsibility for past behaviors and their refusal to change moving forward. While I visit for holidays or big events, I make sure to always have an escape plan and never

stay more than a few hours. My mom grew up in a home with severe trauma, domestic violence, physical abuse, substance use, a sibling death, and parental abandonment, which plays into her inability to have healthy relationships. Oh boy. Wow. So she had it rough, I feel for We've been fighting since as far back as I can remember, as she was both physically and emotionally abusive toward me, but less toward my siblings. I'm the eldest daughter. I've always wanted a relationship with my mom, but she is emotionally unavailable, and I believe that she simply doesn't like me. Oh, this is so sad. To not be able to love and connect with your own child, let's come back to this thing about her not liking you, but I hear you. This is a very tough mom to have. I started therapy in my early 20s because I wanted to know what was wrong with me that caused my mom to not like me and be so mean. Oh, that's so sad. That is a heartbreaking sentence, man.

Meanwhile, my parents don't believe in mental health. My mom even threatened to take me off of their insurance because she believed the therapist I was seeing was quote unquote brainwashing me. I was 22 and had no job because it was in the middle of COVID. Interesting. I've tried to have numerous conversations with her about how she makes me. feel and even told her that she wouldn't be allowed in my wedding if she and I didn't go to family therapy together. That lasted four weeks because I discovered that she wasn't being truthful with a therapist. About five years ago, her father, who abused her mother and brother, and then abandoned

the family, had a stroke. None of us have a relationship with him. He called her before calling 911, and she left in the middle of the night to go be with him at the hospital two and a half hours away. This is when my family and I discovered that she was still communicating with him on a regular basis. Ooh, that's quite a discovery. After he had the stroke, she asked us to visit him in the hospital, which I refused to do. As time went on, it became an issue that I was her only child who wanted no relationship with her dad. When he was eventually released from the hospital, she moved him into my family's home. Since I was the only one not living in the house, I became the sounding board for my two siblings,

who my mother assigned as home health aides for her dad. Oh my God. Wow. Okay. This woman, I'm a hold off, but that's ridiculous. My two brothers waited on him hand and foot and even wiped his ass several times a day. My mom simply said, this is what family members do. Oh, right, but not you, just your sons. You don't have to wipe the butts. You just assign that to your kids who don't even know this guy. I refuse to be a part of this. And any time he was at the house, I would leave because I didn't want to interact with him.

Strong stance. I applaud that. But oh, your mom must have loved that. Since he was such a shitbag and didn't pay any child support to my grandmother, he invested in stocks and other things. Long story short, he has hundreds of thousands of dollars stashed in his home. Knowing what I know about my mom, part of the reason she refused to put him in a nursing home or pay someone is so that she could keep the money.

So I was wondering if this is where the story was going, because I can think of a few reasons she'd take her POS father in all these years later, and this was at the top of the list. Obviously, we don't know your mom and her motivations, but I guess, well, we'll take your word for it. This is not hard to believe.

My mom only has one brother, who's five years older. The other was killed in a hunting accident when she was 17. Oh, my gosh. Wow. This woman is like a character at a Yellowstone or something, just one crazy trauma after another. I know. How much can one person go through?

My God, what a family. She no longer speaks to her brother, as he is also cut off from her father as well. He was the primary target of the physical abuse in the home as a kid. He's at his own struggles with substance use and has been in therapy for years to address the trauma he experienced growing up. My mom can't seem to handle that I have a close relationship with her brother and his wife, and not with her. During my last visit home at Christmas, my mom proceeded to get drunk and tell me how shitty I am because I refuse to talk to her dad and that I make her life really hard because she has to decide between inviting me to family events or inviting him. Okay, I can appreciate that this woman feels very stressed by all this. She feels pulled in two directions. Who does she

prioritize? That must be hard for her. But like, is her life hard because you refuse to play along? Or is her life hard because she brought her abusive father into the family home and just expected everybody to play nice? Also, what does she mean invite him to family? Doesn't he live in the house now? Oh, yeah. I don't know whether to wheel him in from the room next door or invite my daughter over for Christmas. Brough.

Come on. I told her I would make the decision easy for her and just not come. Bravo. When I got home from that conversation, my dad called me. He told me that I should be grateful that my mother chooses me

because it causes her a lot of stress. This progressed into an intense argument where my dad told me that I've been quote unquote brainwashed by my mom's brother. There's that word again. It's clocking that. My dad and my uncle were best friends before my dad married my mom. They lived together, owned a business together, and own multiple boats together.

Now, they don't even speak. My dad refuses to give details as to what the falling out was about. I'm going to guess that's because it was mostly his fault or your mom's. He now blames my uncle for me moving away from the family, for why I don't want a relationship with my mom's dad, and for the strained relationship that I have with both of my parents. After hearing this, I hung up on him. I haven't spoken to anyone since.

I'm not really sure that my family is ever going to understand the level of dysfunction in this dynamic. This feels like the straw that broke the camel's back. How do I know when going no contact is the best option? Signed, feeling coerced to immerse myself and my family's dysfunctional universe, and for reasons that seem perverse and probably have more to do with the purse, to converse and play nurse to the man who started this curse. Wow, okay, so much going on here. Let me start by saying, I am very sorry that you're in this position.

Very sorry. This is obviously an extremely tricky family to be a part of. You know this better than anyone, and my heart goes out to you for everything you've had to deal with here. The legacy of these multiple traumas, the competing interests, what sounds like an inability to listen and empathize and communicate, I can understand why you felt the need to pull back. I got to say, though, I'm also sorry for your mom. She's the obvious villain here. Well, it's between her and her dad.

Hard to say who started this chain of events, but yeah, despite the many ways she's hurt you and let you down, I do have some compassion for her because, my God, what a childhood to have. What a father to have or not have, actually. She sounds like a very wounded person, and she would have to be. Only someone who's in a lot of pain would act this way.

Physically and emotionally abuse her children, lash out, blame other people, withhold love. I suspect that a lot of the stuff that you deal with in your mom, you're dealing with the hurt child that's inside of her. Yeah, that's always the case, isn't it? And that includes her capacity to be in a real loving relationship with our friend here. Yes, this is the thing I wanted to come back to. My heart broke when she said that her mom simply doesn't like her. It's possible that her mom doesn't like her a lot of the time. I think in her mind, our friend is a source of antagonism and stress, and that makes it hard for her to show her

her best qualities, but given everything she shared about her mom... Can this woman really love anyone? Exactly. I'm connecting some dots here. But when a parent simply isn't emotionally available, it's usually not because they're deciding to be emotionally unavailable. It's because they can't be available. Yeah, I think that's especially true if that was the case since their child was very, very young, but this wasn't like a strategy. Right. Her mom has some real issues because, well, look at her dad and God knows what else she went through. However, she's now, Obviously an adult, she's a mother. She has access to resources like therapy, whether she believes in it or not.

She absolutely has a responsibility to work on this stuff if she wants a more harmonious family and a better relationship with you. Her resistance to therapy and this belief that therapy is brainwashing her daughter because it's leading her to disagree with her and the family and her not being truthful with the therapist that they went to go see to get. I mean, I have to assume that all of that is a way to avoid really digging into some very painful stuff for her. Of course. So compassion and accountability when it comes to your mom, I make room for both. Let's talk about her dad for a second. Your theory is that she took him in because she doesn't want to diminish the estate by paying for nursing care. I suppose there's an even more cynical explanation, which is she stayed close with her dad in order to get the inheritance in the first place. But those are, well, maybe those are basically the same thing. It's funny. I had a slightly less cynical

explanation for all of this, which is that she's so desperate for a connection with her father after he abandoned her, and that's why she stayed close and went to the hospital and eventually invited him in. Interesting. I mean, I suppose that's a more charitable read on things, but even if that's the case, she could still arrange for him to be in a nursing home with proper care, go visit him every day. I don't see why it has to be in her house. True. And her co-opting her other kids to become nurses for this guy that they probably have no connection to. That's not cool. No, I mean, that's crazy work. And it's downright weird. Look, you want to invite your alien. abusive deadbeat dad into your home so you can have that connection and you don't want him to die

in a sad hospice center or whatever, hey, fine. You put him in the guest room, you take the responsibility on for yourself. I'd still have a lot of questions about that decision given what kind of guy he is, but fine. You don't deputize your children to feed him and wipe his butt under the guise of, well, this is just what family does. I have a strong feeling that this is just what family does is code for, well, because I want the benefits, financial, emotional, whatever, and I don't want to do it. So now it's your job. I think when our friend here says, I'm sorry, but I'm not playing along with this. That's very threatening to her mom. Oh, yeah. Someone having their own opinion is this woman's worst nightmare. Yeah, she wants everyone to go with the program because, A, that's how she gets what she wants

with regard to her father, whatever that is. I'm also still confused. And also, she probably gets very worked up and angry and embarrassed, perhaps, to have to pause and reflect on why she's doing all of this for this very flawed man. I agreed. So her first move is, you don't want to help, you're a bad, family member, you're a bad daughter. You're being brainwashed. Brainwashed. Yeah, mind you, by a professional clinician with an outside perspective and the only other person in this family who's going, yeah, this guy's a POS who abused me and I want nothing to do with him. What a coincidence that those are the two people that are supposedly brainwashing you. Come on. Our friend is up against a kind of an impossible challenge here because in this family, there's only one right way to feel, one right way to be.

It sounds like there's no room for healthy disagreement or, you know, respectful. distance where everybody basically takes responsibility for their own choices and their own lives without trying to convince everyone that this is the right way and they all need to agree all the time. Right. It's just our way or the highway. You're with us or you're against us. The thing is, her grandfather is almost the least of the problem here. She's looking at all of this and going, what's even left for me in this family? Like an abusive and unavailable mother who refuses to have a real dialogue with me. An avoidant and enabling father who backs her up and won't explain why he had a falling out with his brother-in-law, a childhood that was marked by abuse

and neglect. Like, what is the point? If there's no benefit here and there's all this pain, then is there even a place for me in this family? Honestly, if I were her, I'd probably peace out. Just being honest, screw this noise. Y'all wipe this abusive, miserly old guy's ass for his money he withheld from the mother of his children. I'ma be over here living my best, sanest life. Yeah, on the couch, talking about how to recover from all of this. Yeah, I mean, I can't say I'd blame her for doing that, but this question of how do I know when going no contact is the best option? Yeah, it's always tricky, right? There's always hairs, wrinkles on this one. Very tricky. It's so hard to know when you actually need to cut someone off, because often

you can't even just cut off that person, right? It makes the whole family logistics hard. I think you and I, Jordan, usually land on the idea that if you need to protect yourself from harm, like serious ongoing harm from a family member, whether it's hurtful words or physical violence or financial manipulation or whatever it is. And there's no way to stay safe and have contact and no reasonable hope of progress. They just refuse to have a real conversation or consider evolving. And there are no mitigating circumstances, right? Like an illness or a disorder or an injury or they're on their death, but I don't know, something like that. Then that could be a good reason to really cut someone off. Anything short of that can often be solved with strong boundaries. The question

is, what are you hoping to accomplish with your family? What do you need to feel safe? and at peace. If that means zero contact, that might be the answer, at least for a time. Although it might be worth considering if you need to actually communicate that to your family, like, hey, I'm not talking to you guys anymore. And don't invite me to the funeral because I'm not coming. You know, if that means you keep a door open if they need to get in touch, but you don't go over to the house anymore, you don't call all the time, you don't get roped into requests, that might be the answer. There might be a few strands to this desire to cut your parents off. you might want to spare yourself all of this conflict, which I understand.

You might want to send them a strong message that there are consequences to what they've done. You might want to take back some power here. You might also want to just find out what it's like and what you are like when you're not talking to them, when you're not being dragged into this dysfunction over and over again. I think all of these are legitimate, but maybe just sit with that and ask yourself what you really want and what you actually need to accomplish it. The other thing you can do is experiment. Try not going over there or calling for a few weeks, see how you feel, see how they respond,

try keeping your conversations with your mom brief, maybe practicing things like, sorry, mom, I'm sure you have your reasons for caring for your father. The ones that I see don't make sense to me. This is your father, not mine. So I'm going to let you make that call. I don't want to be roped into it. Just see what happens. Point is, maybe you don't need to decide officially whether to cut off your parents.

Maybe you can play with different approaches and see what gets you, the furthest. I'm very sorry that your parents are like this. I'm so sorry they're all caught in these difficult cycles and they can't have a relatively fair and functional relationship with you. It sucks and it's totally unfair. But you don't need to necessarily fix this in order to be okay and to evolve. You just need to find the right relationship with all of it. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes,

your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your brother-in-law has been isolated by a pseudotherapist girlfriend who's milking the family for money at every turn. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, now we're going to brainwash you with some traumatizingly good deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Simpleasafe. Most home security systems are designed for after, after the window breaks, after somebody gets inside, after the alarm goes off, after you get the notification, SimplySafe asked a better question. What if you could help stop that entire chain of events before it even starts? SimpliSafe is celebrating its 20th anniversary. It's impressive how far home security has come.

We've used SimplySafe for years, and the biggest benefit is the feeling I get when we leave the house. I'm not sitting there wondering whether I locked every door or whether something could be happening while we're gone. I know there's a real system actively watching the property. SimpliSafe's AI-powered outdoor cameras can detect suspicious activity around your home and alert live U.S.-based agents. Those agents can assess what's happening, speak through the camera to let trespassers know they've been spotted, and contact 911 when necessary. That's the difference between a system that simply records a break-in and one designed to help prevent it.

SimpliSafe has been protecting your world for 20 years. Celebrate their anniversary with us and save 60% on your new SimpliSafe system at Simplysafe.com slash Jordan. That's 60% off at simplysafe.com slash Jordan. Plus, when you order write the Jordan Harbinger show in the How Did You Hear About a survey to let them know we sent you. Don't forget, there's no safe like SimplySafe. This episode is also sponsored by What Not. The first time I spent time on What Not, I understood pretty quickly why people stick around.

I joined a live show. I watched the seller answer questions in real time, joke around with the chat, move through products faster than I expected. And I found a great deal on a discontinued Lego set for Jaden. Having a kid is kind of the perfect cover. for buying stuff that you secretly want yourself. What Not is not only a great place to shop, it's a powerful place to sell.

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You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hey, guys. Last week, someone cute messaged me on Grindr. The private album of Tasteful Nudes gets sent pretty early on in most Grindr conversations. And I've always been careful never to share anything personally identifiable in my nudes, face, tattoo, anything like that. Yep, just straight to the D.

Wouldn't want anybody to see something private like your lepricon tattoo. Just multiple well-lit close-ups of your Shorn Scrodom. Shorn Scrodom is such a... Graphic. Image. That's graphic. It's unusual for anyone to ask for a phone number or an Instagram handle, but he got both out of me. This person seemed interested in more than just sex, and I was distracted and enthusiastic about the profile,

so I didn't think twice when he asked for them. The next day, he texts me, confirms the number is real, and then sent me a bunch of texts showing messages ready to go to all of my friends and family with my face pick, some dick picks, and a screenshot of our grinder conversation. All of a sudden, the scammer was like, you have 10 seconds to follow all of my demands. Ugh, so gross.

These scammers really know how to put people in an awful position. My biggest difficulty was navigating Instagram's Byzantine, privacy settings to make my profile private, and then looking up the FBI slash IC3 contact form to report the crime, all while basically blind from adrenaline. The scammer sent another threatening message while I was in the process of reporting them and then went silent. After some time, the hilarity of the situation unfolded for me and I realized what a weak proposition it was. Like, all their leverage goes away the moment they send anything to my friends or family. Also, Instagram filters messages from unknown senders by default.

I don't know half the people they were threatening to send my nudes to. My mom was on their list, but she barely uses Instagram. And if they somehow punched through to somebody who actually knew me, aside from the fact that my nudes are not identifiable, anyone who knew me would just be irritated at the bad manners of someone who tried to blackmail me. Also, I've discovered I'm kind of proud of what I've got on offer. The real kicker was that one of the contacts they were threatening to send the photos to is like the most obnoxious pick-me energy person in my broader community.

When I saw that, I was tempted to go to the scammer and be like, send it. A scammer sending my dickpicks to this particular person trying to blackmail me would have been one of the funniest things that's ever happened to me. Man, I'm glad you have such a sense of humor about all this. Many people completely spiral. It took hours for that logic to settle in, though. Well, I hear that. This is what the scammers want.

They want people to panic and do what they say. Some people panic so much they take their own lives. We've talked about that on the show. It's really sad. In the end, nothing happened. No further messages or threats after my lack of response. Maybe IC3 will do something with the phone number. Maybe they won't.

The Grindr profile immediately blocked me, and the scammer never actually followed me on Instagram. Yeah, of course. They usually give up when they don't get what they want. They're looking for easy targets. They have no incentive to actually expose you. There's nothing in it for them. I'm not even mad. I assume the scammer is captive in a call center somewhere in Cambodia or something, getting beaten with a cattle prod if they don't make their quota.

Sadly, could very well be the case, or they could just be a very desperate and destitute person living in a tough place. I have less sympathy for those people, but even those people are hurting somehow. I mean, why else would they scam? Unless they enjoy it because they're psychopaths or something. It's only thanks to your content that I was able to be like, I've seen a scam before and had some kind of protocol for how to handle it. I'm sharing this story with you in the hopes that someone else can hit the pause button when hit with a similar threat. Signed, a dude in the mood to help other people avoid being screwed after not being too shrewd about who viewed my nudes, which can turn into a feud, but only if you collude with these scammers who intrude,

seclude, and try to subdue by making their victims feel like they're coming unglued. Man, well, I'm very sorry you experienced this. Even if you're prepared for something like this, it's still very stressful. very exposing to get this message. As you know, of course, it sounds like the scammer was especially agro with the texts, showing you screenshots of the message, all your contacts. That's the kind of thing that drives people

to hand over tens of thousands of dollars or worse. It's incredibly sad. It's incredibly effective. That said, I'm very happy you were educated about these scams and you knew how to respond to one. The sad part is these scammers are so easy to evade or beat. All they want is the most amount of money for the least amount of work.

every story I've heard confirms that the moment you disengage, they just move on. They don't have time to convince a thinking person to do what they say. They are looking for people who will buy into the scam, freak out, play along. Those are the targets that they need. And there's plenty of them. They'll move on if anybody's given them a hard time. So good on you for remembering that and just pulling back. And apparently being so proud of your shorn scrote picks that you don't even care of a scammer

sends your nudes around. I mean, that's a level of true confidence that I myself, wire to, even though I do not and would never have a private gallery of nudes well lit or otherwise, as far as you all know. I do wonder if the one big takeaway is to not maybe share nudes with strangers from the jump on apps. That's not sure. I know that's probably a real straight guy take and far less fun than what you're doing now. But I mean, it seems a little risky. You got to suss people out at least a little more before you share that stuff. I'm sure you're already thinking about that. said you were distracted and into the person you thought you were messaging, maybe from here

on out it would be wise to focus a little more when you're sending something sensitive and to keep an eye on how attraction can temporarily blind you to certain things. I mean, that's why they picked the profile photos that they had, right? It's up to every adult to decide for themselves, I suppose. I would also definitely notify Grindr about this so they can delete the profile. I'm sure they have some protocol or automated process for removing scammers from the platform. It's probably happening every day. I'm just thinking about that super sad story we took a while back about the teenager who had sent nudes to a scammer thinking it was a real girl or something and he got extorted by the person and then he committed suicide because he was too afraid to tell his parents. That stuff sadly

happens all the time. It's very tragic. It's totally avoidable by not sending nudes in the first place, which I think is the wisest policy, but also just by not playing into the scammer's demands. So I appreciate the PSA, it's a really important one, whether it's nudes or secrets or personal information. These scams are everywhere, and we've got to be on the lookout for them. But yeah, the only thing you need to do is not play along, delete, and report. Take care of yourself out there, bud. Hope you only meet real dudes from here on out, and you don't let your guard down too much, even if them dickpicks are just straight fire. So good luck. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show, if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners

about specific episodes. Something you liked, didn't like. You got your thoughts on it. Share it with us on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation of the week is a product called Squirrel Box. So Jen sent me this.

She was like, I want one of these. It's think Birdhouse, but for squirrels. So you go to Squirrelboxes.com, and they have different kinds of houses that you can build, different kinds of boxes. And the coolest ones have a camera mount. You can take, I don't know, like a ring camera or whatever camera you use at home. You're simply safe maybe.

And you can put it in the box and you can see the squirrels nesting and raising babies and resting and stuff. It's really, really cool. It's a fun product. It's really easy to build. You don't have to be some kind of DIY genius to do it. And I bought one of these and I reached out to the guy who runs the website. And he was like, oh my gosh, it's Jordan Arbinger.

I want to offer a discount for your fans because I listen to the show. So if you use code Jordan over at squirrelboxes.com, they're not a sponsor. It's just a show fan sort of side hustle. That'll get you 15% off your order. And we'll link to that in the show notes. These are really fun. Jen built it with my son. They both are obsessed with checking the cameras.

It's really just a fun product. And you're supporting a show fan's business, squirrelboxes.com linked in the show notes. You know, who else is freshly waxed and ready to party? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our sponsors. All of the deals and discounts are on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If they don't work, the code doesn't work. You can't find it. Email me, Jordan atjurbaner.com. We'll dig up the code for you, especially if you include some well-lit, tasteful nudes. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right. Next up.

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 27 and my biggest life goal is to be a father and to have a family. The thing is, I've never been in an actual relationship with anyone. I've been on several dates with a handful of women, but nothing has ever made it out of the talking stage. Every girl that I've talked to ended things before anything really started. It seems to always end with their communication slowing down, followed by them deciding to end things. Looking back over the last couple of years, I can see that most of the girls really weren't right for me. and I've done a lot of growth to understand that. I have this friend, let's call her Sarah.

I've known for about three years. Sarah used to date my friend Mike, who is also my roommate for about two years before they broke up last year. I've always had a good relationship with Sarah, but it was always respectful and I never crossed any boundaries, especially while they were dating.

Since they broke up, I've kept my distance from Sarah out of respect for Mike. She goes to my church, and I would see her every now and then, but we never really talked much. Then, a couple months ago, she reached out asking about an event that we had going on in our church, and that turned into us talking every day. We talked as just friends, but I could see that there was interest on her end, and it allowed me to start having feelings for her.

Our personalities, values, and life goals lined up very well, and I could see that we had a connection. I talked to Mike about Sarah, out of respect for our friendship, and he had a lot of grace and no issues with us pursuing something. I could tell that they had both moved on from each other. That opened the door for me to explore a relationship with Sarah. After that, she and I went on a couple dates and met up a couple times and talked for hours each time. Everything looked like it was going well. We were pretty open with each other and everything felt natural. From what I could see, and also from intel I got from a mutual friend, the feelings were definitely reciprocal. Then, about a week or so after we went on the first date,

Sarah decided to end things. She said she never allowed herself to have feelings and that she felt a lot of pressure. I asked her if it had anything to do with her and Mike, and she said it didn't. She said she still wanted to be friends, but I told her I needed time to process everything. Ultimately, I came away from that conversation more confused than I had ever been. I genuinely believe things were going well. The whole thing only lasted about two months and never got physical, but it gave me the most hope I've ever had. Yeah, that's really tough, man. Sorry, dashed hopes, more confusion, that can definitely hurt. I've been let down many times before, but this one hurt the most because it came from someone who was genuinely becoming one of my best friends, and I genuinely thought things were going to be different. I know I

always grow from a heartbreak, but it's so discouraging. I keep trying to put myself out there, but every time I seem to get close to someone, they end up pulling away, chipping away at my confidence and my hope. I'm a pretty self-aware person. I'm always trying to understand my weaknesses and see how I can work on them, so it's hard for me not to think that I'm the problem, even though I try my best to be the best man I can be. After all of this, I realized that I need to connect with people. I started reaching out to family and friends more, and I finally started going to therapy again. Do you have any advice on how to keep putting myself out there without getting hurt over and over again? What are your thoughts on trying to maintain a platonic relationship with someone after the door to something more has already been opened?

Signed, bruised, confused, and somewhat bemused, but looking to improve and decide the right move after being refused by another prospect before we even found our groove. Really interesting letter and really good question. So first off, I'm sorry that things didn't work out with Sarah and that this fits into a larger pattern. I know it sucks to struggle in the dating world. it's probably the most charged area in our lives, and I think it's extra hard when you're very self-aware. You want to diagnose the issue, you want to work on it. It's also extra hard when what you want more than anything in life

is to find a wife and be a father, which, by the way, I love that you're clear about that. You have a goal. You have a strong intention and dating, but I imagine the stakes also feel very high, even at 27. I've got to say, though, I'm really moved by a number of things in your letter. I'm moved by the fact that you're continuing to put yourself out there and pursue women after some tough setbacks.

That is essential, and it says a lot about your resilience, and I know, I mean, I see even in this latest experience, that's going to put you in touch with some great data. I'm moved by the fact that you handled the Sarah thing appropriately after she and Mike broke up and that when something started to develop, you went to him and you asked him directly if it was okay to explore things with her. Again, I think that says a lot about you, you're a mensch, and I'm moved by your self-awareness and your humility and your eagerness to appreciate where you need to develop, your hunger to be the best man you can be. So look, it sounds like I'm gassing you up here. Maybe I am a little bit, but I mean it. You're a solid guy. I know those qualities are going to play a huge role in your life.

So how do you keep putting yourself out there over and over again without getting hurt? You can't. I think we probably talked about this recently, one of my favorite themes from Feedback Friday. To be a person on this planet is to always risk being hurt. It's not fun. It's not easy. If we all had our druthers, we'd toggle off the hurt feature in our hearts, wouldn't that be nice? But we can't do that. Saying yes to life, inviting the possibility of getting hurt, those are two sides of the same coin.

Joy and pain. The potential to experience both. That's the deal. We'll do a lot of clever things to avoid the hurt and only experience the joy, but that never works, not really. That just leads to cramping around our wounds, selectively choosing the parts of life that are convenient for us, slipping into various defense mechanisms, which, let's be honest, we all do to some degree,

but some more than others, anything to ward off the ickiness of being wounded. And so the project isn't to avoid ever getting hurt again. The project is to learn to bear that hurt, to work with that hurt, to learn from it, to be a little humbled by it, to accept all of the feelings around it, anger, sadness, shame, frustration, all that's super fun cocktail, and to work through the pain in a way that doesn't paralyze you or drown you or make you want to pull away from life, but rather allows you to grow in the ways that you need to grow and to show up that much better next time. But again, you're already leaning into these big questions. And so my

advice there is to keep leaning into them and don't lean out or away. Don't self-protect too much because there's a process unfolding here that is extremely important. As for trying to maintain a platonic relationship with Sarah after you guys explored something romantic. I have a few thoughts. One, if you need a little time, a few weeks, a couple months, whatever, to recover from the heartache, reset, come back to the relationship with a new mindset, that's absolutely fair. Take the time you need. That can be healthy. And during this time apart, you might want to reflect on the qualities that you liked in Sarah and ask yourself if this is somebody you would truly like to be friends with. It sounds like maybe there was a solid base of friendship there at the beginning. That can make it a lot

easier to transition into a regular friendship. I also know that when you're romantically interested in someone, sometimes you overlook whether you'd actually be friends with them. The attraction kind of eclipses everything else. Sometimes it even blinds you to certain things, and when things end, you're kind of left going, well, actually, there isn't a ton for me here. And you know what? That's also fair. So maybe take this time to see how you really feel about Sarah as a friend, get a little more perspective. You might have to grab coffee when you're ready to know for sure. I think it's a promising sign that she wants to be friends with you. It sounds like you guys had a real connection. So I'm hopeful for that. But you get to decide if that's a relationship

that you want to invest in. I think the hardest part of this is just taking the L, so to speak, and turning the corner on the relationship, right? Like you wanted it to be one thing. Sarah wants it to be another. You can't make her feel differently. So your options are respectfully part ways because your interests are different, which can be a legitimate choice. Or embrace this new version of your relationship slash it's going back to the friendship you had before and see what that friendship with her is like. Maybe it lasts. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it becomes a beautiful friendship. Or maybe it fizzles and you naturally drift apart. I mean, it's hard to predict. But as you probably know, Jordan and I are both big fans of men and women being friends. They have so much

to offer each other. Having dated, especially if it was so brief like this in the past, should not necessarily be an obstacle to being friends. And it does sound like it's worth giving it a shot. But it's interesting, Jordan. I think what you're also getting at is his capacity for a friendship with Sarah, with any woman, is probably going to be proportional to his capacity to bear this hurt that he's trying to avoid. Do you know what I mean? Like, he's in a mini grief process right now as he accepts her choice and makes sense of it. He's mourning their short-lived romantic relationship.

He's also mourning all of the hopes that he had for that relationship, which actually might be the harder part. I think so. Like I said, he's got a lot writing on this given his goals. So this is one interesting thing that's already coming out of this breakup. Maybe he's appreciating that he brings a lot to a new relationship, whether he comes out and says it or not, maybe the other person just picks up on it. He's dating with the intention of getting married and having children and I assume being happy forever after and all that. It's a wonderful goal, but that can also become a slightly freighted situation. I do think sometimes people can feel that and it can just be a lot.

I just keep coming back to that detail where he said that Sarah felt pressured and I wonder if this was the pressure that she felt. Maybe it was another form of pressure, or maybe that's her stuff, not his, but I just wonder if maybe this was in the mix. But I want to be accurate here, because we could speculate wildly. We don't know how Sarah experienced you, right? We don't know how she felt about your hopes for the relationship. They might not have registered for her at all, or they could have registered quite a bit or anything in between. But whether Sarah had a feeling about your hopes for the relationship or not, I do get the sense that they're playing a big role in how you feel after a relationship ends. And so just to broaden way out here, this might be another thing that Sarah is

teaching you, how to not bring too many fantasies or too many expectations to a new relationship. And who knows, maybe this is the reason you had to explore this relationship with her, even though it didn't work out. And if it's not this insight, it's probably going to be something else. There's always something to learn. But more than that, you might want to start thinking about romantic partners, any person, any situation really, as data rather than hoped for outcomes. Yes. 100% yes. So by that I mean, you could go into a relationship with someone and think to yourself, boy, I really hope she's my wife, who I've been looking for since I was a kid. Like, I want to be a father, times a tick in. And if it works out that way, then I succeed. But if it doesn't work out that way,

then I failed. That puts your personal goals front and center. And we just talked about how that can be a lot for some people. It's also a fairly narrow way of looking at success. There's another way to go into a relationship, which is thinking more like, man, I can't wait to find out, what I learn about this person and myself in this relationship. And I still want to find my wife. I still want to start a family. But my main goal right now, especially at the beginning of a relationship, is just to be curious about this person,

to be curious about myself, see what comes up in our exchange, how I partner with people and get clearer on what I'm looking for out there and see how this person lines up, all of that. Totally. By that definition, you can't lose. So I'm also aware that there's a question lurking in his letter that he hasn't explicitly asked, which is what is the issue? Really, is there even an issue? I'm sitting here going, do we take a stab at that? Do we throw out some possibilities?

But I'd need to know so much more about him. You know, this pressure thing seems to be the most meaningful data point. But yeah, it's really hard to diagnose exactly what that is. And I don't want to fill his head with theories that are completely unfounded. I coached people for, what, a decade or so in dating? I mean, I'd spend a week, 10 days, many hours a day with some of these guys. even then, it was hard to diagnose some of these roadblocks. These things can be very subtle and very nuanced. I also want to make room for the possibility that he simply hasn't found his person yet. I think it's totally possible that when he meets the right person, it'll just click. And it often does. And he won't be sitting there wondering, oh, what's wrong with me? Absolutely. It's also possible that

he's still learning what he wants in a partner, or he thinks he can find what he wants in a wide array of people, so he's pursuing women who just are not the right fit. Yeah, all of these are possible. But so this is why I think shifting your mindset is really valuable because if there is some significant issue that you need to address, and I'm still saying if, because we don't know if there is. But the best way of finding out is by continuing to date, inviting in all of this data that you get from people, trying to make sense of it, and yeah, being willing to be hurt along the way, that's the price of admission, and not judging the success or failure of the relationship by whether you found your forever person, which can almost work against you

sometimes. So I have a interesting idea here. It's a little out there, but I think it could be great. Ooh, exciting. All right. Let's hear it. So when he's ready, what if he invites Sarah at a lunch, right? And he says something like, our relationship has been very special to me. I was excited to explore a romantic relationship with you. I hear you loud and clear that you don't feel that way. I was a little bummed at first about that, but I get it. I respect it. Thank you for telling me directly. Thank you for telling me early on, you know, I'm ready to be your friend and thank you for being open to staying friends and giving me some time. And then maybe he says, so we're friends now, I want to share something with you, I want to ask you for your honest thoughts, please don't hold back,

it's important to me that you speak openly, and then maybe you tell her the broad outlines of this pattern that you're noticing, and that what happened between the two of you seems to fall into that pattern, and then you could say, and this is important, now that we're stepping into this friendship for real, I want to ask you if there was anything that came up between us that gave you pause or that didn't sit well with you or made you feel that something was missing. I know you mentioned that you felt pressured. I would really love to understand more about that. Is that something I made you feel? Is that something that you felt based on something I did? Unpack that with her. And you could even say, I know it's kind of weird and unconventional to ask

somebody this straight up. But if you can be honest with me here, you would be giving me a great gift. You'd help me continue to grow into the best version of the person I want to be. And I promise to take it in and listen. Damn, yeah, well, it's bold. That's for sure. Again, I realize this might be overly literal, very on the nose. I also think there's something to be said for being overly literal sometimes, especially if there's some crucial piece of information that he senses is out there and he needs to hear it directly from someone. It might also be an interesting way to see if this friendship with Sarah really has legs. Like, is she going to be a true friend and give it to him straight or not? That's true, but that also depends on Sarah's willingness to really meet him in that

vulnerability and that honesty. Which is not guaranteed. Yeah, I think a lot of people, like we were just talking about, would do anything to avoid saying the painful thing. And she's not going to want to hurt him. I hear that, but she already did give him some pretty honest feedback. So he would just be saying, can you help me understand that better? I really want to understand how that shows up in my relationships. Yeah, that's a good point. I should also acknowledge that he has to really mean this, too. He can't just say that it's okay for her to be honest. You know, he has to really be ready to take in whatever she says, which I hope he is. Yeah, a lot of guys do this too, though, right? I'm not saying he's going to do it, but they're like, just tell me, give it to me straight. And she's like, well,

I actually don't like this. And then it's like, wha, I'm going to make your life miserable and be mean to you for the next three years. It's like the risk or word for a lot of women being honest with guys about this stuff and vice versa. It's just not the equation. The math doesn't math. So what she says might wound him and he has to be ready for that and not take it out on her, hold it against her. Yes. And it's okay if he is wounded. He can leave their conversation and attend to that hurt in a helpful way with his new therapist, for example, right? This isn't about not having any difficult feelings in response. Yeah, so like she could wriggle out of this and dodge the question and that might tell him, okay, there's something there. Maybe this isn't the most

meaningful friendship. Or she could really engage and give him a gem or two from their time together. And that might tell him, wow, okay, I'm getting some answers and this girl is a true homie. Yeah. Either way, he accomplishes something important. And look, maybe this information comes from Sarah, maybe it doesn't. Maybe he and Sarah simply were not a match, and that's all this is. And there is no problem other than they are incompatible. Maybe Sarah needs another few months of friendship to really trust that he can hear this. There's so many ways this could go. But I'm hearing that our friend is ready to bear the pain of honest feedback in pursuit of this goal that matters very much to him. This is one way to do that, and I do think he has a lot to gain, so worth a shot. I think that'll

also help with this discouraging feeling he has. I think what's driving that is feeling like it's all loss and frustration with no growth or no insight. But the growth and insight, that transforms these setbacks into opportunities. It gives them meaning. And that's what he craves the most. That's what we all need, right? So thank you for sharing all this with us, bud. Thank you for your vulnerability and openness. Follow them into all of your relationships, including with Sarah. And I know that they're going to lead you to the answers that you're seeking. It's all growth, brother. And one day, you will find her and it'll all make sense. But it doesn't need to make sense now. All you need right now is the learning. And good luck. Go back and check out Annie Jacobson and our skeptical Sunday on gut health

if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build that in our six minute networking course. It's free. It is not schmoozy. It's on the thinkific platform at six minute networking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you're thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them. You can find it at six minute networking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Tadasidlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show

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