The Jordan Harbinger Show - 1394: Wife Cheated with Friend, But Must Marriage End? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: October 9, 2026

Your wife and your fantasy football pal were a secret team. Is staying married smart parenting, or just making you a schmuck? It's Feedback Friday!And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1394On This Week's Feedback Friday: If you want to close your eyes and drift across Gabe's silent meditation retreat post-game wrap-up, you can jump to timestamp 28 minutes and 40 seconds!You spent four years as a stay-at-home dad to three girls, only to learn your wife's "work trips" were cover for a years-long affair with your fantasy football buddy and family friend. Now she says she doesn't want a divorce. Do you go scorched earth, or quietly stay put for the kids' sake?Your sister-in-law's home was raided by the FBI, local police, and CPS after her husband's old crypto account was allegedly linked to purchases of child sexual abuse material. Now your niece is living with her grandmother, and the details keep getting murkier. How do you help, and is this the whole story?Recommendation of the Week: TurboScribe — Jordan's go-to for turning audio, video, or even a YouTube link into an accurate transcript, free for up to three 30-minute files a day, and they promise never to train AI on your words. Ready to give your typing fingers the day off?Your 92-year-old mom, a devoted show fan, decided to stop fighting her illness — then, after two nights of falling asleep to the show, rallied with new plans and projects. Now you're juggling joy, worry, and anticipatory grief. How do you support her, and yourself, through the unknown?Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]!Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: BetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordanAT&T: Get an iPhone 17 Pro for $0: att.com/iphone or visit an AT&T store for detailsMint Mobile: Shop plans at mintmobile.com/jhsProgressive Insurance: Free online quote: progressive.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the inoffensive plant-based mazarella to my dank, unsubtle Gorgonzola, Gabriel Mizrahi. You just recited my order at the last three restaurants I visited. That was great. Yeah, I want that pasta that smells so good, but take all the flavors out and all that stuff. I know your substitutions, your substitutions. Is that a real word? Probably not. Probably not, but I loved it. That sounds like one of those, yeah. On the Jordan Horsons. Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker, and during the week,

we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, rocket scientists, drug scientists, former jihadis, undercover economic hitman, you name it. This week, we had Jeff Scoop, former neo-Nazi, and Andrew Her on travel health, staying healthy in the sky and at hotels and even avoiding a little bit of jet lag. He's the inventor of Fly Kit, a product I'm a huge fan of, So that's an especially practical episode. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare ourselves to various obscure cheese genres. Hey, show fam, producer Jace here.

If you want to close your eyes and drift across Gabe's silent meditation retreat post-game wrap-up, you can jump to timestamp 28 minutes and 40 seconds. Enjoy the show. So, Gabe, you're just coming off your silent meditation retreat, yeah? Yeah, just finish. a couple days ago. Quite an experience, I have to say. I bet. How was it? It was pretty awesome, man. I have a lot of thoughts. I'm still making sense of everything. It wasn't perfect. I have some notes, but overall, it was really, really great. I'm glad I did it. Really? Yeah, it was very eye-opening,

the whole experience. So many questions. So first of all, was it as hard as you thought? Because my thing is, oh, just it's the nightmare not being able to talk for that long. It wasn't actually. I was really surprised, not hard, not hard to be silent. Tell me more. I mean, explain how five days of silence is not excruciating. So first of all, let me paint you a picture. The retreat took place at this Benedictine monastery that I told you about that dated back to like the Middle Ages. And there was a church next to it with paintings from hundreds and hundreds of years ago. It was like stunning. And it was in this tiny little town called Magutano on the southwest corner of Lake Garda, which is a really beautiful place. And when you walk around this property, you feel like you're in

one of the houses of one of the major families in Game of Throne. I was just going to say GOT. Yeah. 100% like courtyard, cloister, like, you know, archways. Benedictine monks are those the whole guys? I don't know the sounds they make, actually. And actually, they were not involved in the retreat. It was just, we were just sleeping in their monastery while the retreat was taking place.

So I don't know. Like, hey, I got a group of people, easy money. they're going to be super quiet the whole time and they're guys like they better be quiet and like actually let me it's a silent meditation retreat and they're like all right make the check out too yeah

exactly yeah I would like to know more about them I didn't see very many walking around the property but there were other groups there and some were affiliated with the monastery and some were just renting the space I think they just rent out the space a lot yeah the monks all live in Milan now

and brew beer or whatever drinking espresso by the train station that's right it was amazing though they had like a cemetery in the back from monks and nuns who lived and died there, and they had these beautiful olive groves on the property. And the monastery makes its own olive oil and sells it, which I had never seen before, by the way. That made me laugh. Monks are often entrepreneurial. You know, like you think, oh, they're just sitting around,

but they make beer, cider, I guess if they make olive oil, too. My buddy was a monk. I mean, he was a Don DePonni. He was not a Christian monk or whatever, but they made websites. That's right. So his thing was monk with a MacBook, because they were all on Apple, making websites in like the 90s in the early odds. I completely forgot about that guy. Yeah. That's so funny because usually they make like jams, honeies, beer. Now they're like, which one of you guys knows Ruby on Rails?

That's right. Who's our Ruby on Rails guy? Oh, that would be so-and-so straight from India. We're meditating at 5 a.m. guys, but by 8 a.m., I need that Squarespace page up. Exactly. We got to pay the bills. So I was invited to this thing by my friend I, Tai, who lives in Berlin now. And another friend from the States who lives in Berlin, too, he joined us.

and they were like 40 to 50 people there, which I did not expect. I thought it was going to be like eight or 12 people or something. Most of them were Italian, a handful of Americans. Most of them were actually psychologists or somehow related to the mental health field because the association that organized the retreat is run by therapists, and they do a lot of programming for therapists and psychologists. They do a lot of content for this industry. And man, there were all types of this thing.

I would say like half of the participants were maybe 60 or older. A third were like 40s and 50s and 20% were 20s and 30s. It was a great group. Like everybody was super sweet, super cool, but you definitely get some interesting personalities. Wait, wait. How do you know if they're super cool if you can't talk? Ah, good question. Smiling at you? Yes. Okay.

Actually, that's basically it, just how they look at you. Vibes. Vibes. Yeah. But also towards the end of the retreat on the last day, we were allowed to talk more and then you get to know people. So that's the end. That's the other way that I know.

But you could just feel like everybody there was there because they wanted to learn. And when you can't speak to other people, you have to find other ways of communicating, right? Or just being a thoughtful participant, right? So the way somebody pours you a cup of hot water for your tea after they make the hot water or somebody holds a door or just the way they look at you when you cross paths in the hallway, like these things paint a picture. You don't always get a read. But you suddenly become very conscious of those cues. when you can't talk. If they were all Italian, were they touchy also?

Like, are they like, here's your tea rubbing your shoulders, but not saying anything? Not on this one. Okay. One of the rules at the beginning was like no romantic or sexual contact at all on this retreat. Okay. Yeah, but like rubbing your shoulder is not sexual or romantic. It can just be like nice. But people are very well behaved.

That's how I'll put it. It's so interesting that there's no romantic or sexual contact because theoretically what that means is regardless of the fact that nobody can talk, somewhere or some point, some couple was just like, let's bang without saying a word before, during or after, unless they broke the rules. Yeah. Like imagine, I don't know how to report this without talking, but there's two people banging in the dormitory area. I'm sure the teacher has seen all kinds of things happen. But the rule is designed to keep the space, well, safe, right?

But also, like, pure. Like, we're not here for that. For four days, we're not here on that level. We're here on another level. you know, it helps. There's someone out there who's like right now in real time discovering that maybe they have a kink for this kind of thing, like no talking. A silence kink. Yeah, because clearly like you just need the right to people who have sort of the physical chemistry and the immediate on-site thing and then are like, wait, this is kind of hot. We can't talk. The flip side of everything I'm saying is

that if you do click with somebody and you can't talk, then you really click with them. And yeah, that's a good point. Pure chemistry. And then you talk to them and you find out they're super it irritating. Like, oh, I liked you so much when you couldn't speak. Yeah. Can we just go from silent retreat to silent retreat? Can you be my silent retreat side piece? Yeah. How about a rule for our relationship is just no talking about anything at any time? But it's, we call it meditation, babe. It's meditation. Yeah, we're just being present. There's always an interesting bunch of people at any sort of wellness or self-help retreat, right? That's kind of a given. Always. I could do like an hour just on the people. Like there was like the former jazz singer.

80 years old, it was like obsessed with the bells, like would not shut up about the bells. But they can't talk? Well, on day one, when we arrived, we could talk and she was like, can we get wake up bells at 7 a.m. And then, and then during Q&A, you can talk. That's when it was. There was a half hour of Q&A every day. And we were allowed to speak then. And then she was like, I just would like to say, I asked for bells and I got bells.

We were like, okay. And on the last day, she thanked everybody for the bells. I don't know why I'm talking about this woman. Every single person had something funny, but we don't have enough time for that. But I will say this. It was actually a bit hard at first, knowing that everybody there was very interesting because when you can't talk to anybody, you just have to sit there wondering how everybody got there and what is their story and what are they wrestling with and everybody just sitting in silence

and you can't find out. So you just have to sit there with that. No, I could not handle that. So like I'll see somebody, not just in the wild, obviously I would never do this. But if I'm out a group thing and I see somebody with a crazy tattoo, I'm like, like, hey, dude, none of my business, but we're going to be together for six days. What's up with that tattoo? That thing is crazy. And they're like, oh, yeah, I actually got that in a concentration camp in Bosnia when I was a kid. And you're like, oh, I need to hear all about this, but also that sounds

traumatizing and I probably shouldn't ask any more questions. But yeah, I couldn't just be like, what is that? Why do you have this set of dots that's seemingly meaningless on your hand or whatever? That's a perfect example. Yeah. And there were people there who had amazing tattoos. And I would be sitting there and being like, oh, I really want to ask her what that is. Right. Q&A. Hi, I want to know why Janice has those tattoos on her arm. Okay.

Do you have anything on like the sutras? Yeah. Is it a sutra tattoo? Maybe it's a sutra tattoo. Janice? Yeah, that's me during Q&A. That's why I can't handle it. So your feedback Friday brain must have been going insane.

But that, again, is part of the meditation, right? Like, I guess so. Let the curiosity pull you, but then, I don't know, don't let it pull you, whatever. Yeah. I mean, you don't have to make fun of it. But yeah. do have to make fun of it. That's more or less what it was. For me, it was like, for me, it was like, there's a part of my brain that really wants to ask that guy why he's sad, or where that lady got

those glasses, or that wants to talk to somebody about what the teacher meant when he said that thing during Q&A and just, you can't indulge it. So you just have to let that impulse be without acting on it. And yeah, I think that was part of the retreat. So who is the teacher, mind shaman facilitator, whatever the word is? The teacher was the somewhat famous meditation teacher, an American guy, but I think he's Italian from Italian descent. And this guy was the most unlikely meditation teacher you could imagine. He was like a short, thin man with a shaved head, thick-rimmed glasses, brightly colored, screen printed T-shirts and jackets that didn't match and pants that didn't match. Like every day was like a different set. Full sleeve tattoos,

speaking of tattoos, like on his right arm, he had a tattoo that said blessed and it was wrapped in what appeared to be octopus tentacles just to give you like one tattoo like it just I don't know man you took a one look at this guy and you're like this dude has been through some shit I don't know what it is but he's been through it you know what he looked like he looked like a guy who would wander into Saul Goodman's office oh man like he sold walter white methalamine in one episode but he's also weirdly philosophical this guy was so sweet so gentle always smiling very respectful super low key it was just so unexpected like not what I imagined at all yeah oh wow Okay, so I was picturing, I don't know, a guy in an orange robe or something, or at least flowy yoga pants, man bun.

Russell Brand. Yes. You were picturing Russell Brand. Correct. That's literally who I was imagining more or less. Yes. They were one of those, what is it, Kundalini people that dressed in all white, someone who drinks fennel tea. Yeah, the complete opposite.

It's funny and unexpected, I suppose. So he would give a half hour talk once a day, and they were these very folksy, down-to-earth lectures. And every single day it was a different theme. One day it was compassion. Another day it was joy. another day was like gratitude or envy or whatever. And so during one of these talks, he made a comment like, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like, you know, sometimes when I'm dealing with some minor irritation,

and I can't do anything about it, I feel like I'm back in prison again. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Damn. So I was correct. This guy has been through it. Although, I'll be honest, that's the kind of comment I would make it a place where nobody could ask questions just to let it hang over everyone.

This reminds me when I was on the run from the cops for half a decade. Anyway, so when you are in lotus position, and everyone just looks at each other and you're like, folks, presence, presence. I gather that he was kind of a storyteller, and so he probably understood how that, like, hooked our curiosity in a certain way. It's kind of like hiding a body. You just put one leg over the other and you smash them together. Anyway, I hope that metaphor makes sense and lands for everyone.

Back to silence, Bing. Talk about bearing our thoughts. Yeah, no, you could feel it, dude. He was very open about a lot of his life. He actually cried a few times during the retreat talking about certain things or certain people. Like, I don't know, at one point he talked about his father, who I guess is very sick and he's going to go visit him nearby

and then he started crying. Good for him, being able to just like do that right there and not feel super self-conscious about it. At the drop of a hat, dude, with like no shame. And then he just started laughing. Like, man, life is crazy, huh? I mean, that's a skill. I wish, like, sometimes I feel like crying

and I'm like, how do I do this again? I literally can't remember. I need time to settle. Just go to this guy's a retreat because the day after I left, I didn't cry during the retreat, but the next day I was doing yoga at my Airbnb. Yeah. And when I finished and I was rolling up the mat, I started crying. Yeah.

Yeah. No, for me, it's so hard for me to access my emotions a lot of the time. I guess I'm half joking about like, oh, I don't forgot it to cry. But no, no, no, there's all these, everything always hits me like days or weeks later. I didn't even cry when my cat died and it took like weeks for me to do that. And then I was like, am I, why is this so late? This is weird. I'm being weird. And then I got all in my head about it and stopped. So what do you think it is? I think, it is, well, me, I should say, but many men, I think, share

this. We just don't do that for so long that we're like not, it's just not a skill that we have anymore, like accessing emotions other than anger or frustration. They're buried deep in there and you have to, like, take time to get them out. And you're like, why would I do that? I have crying's bad. It definitely does not come as easily to us as it does to the ladies, I think, generally. But I also think like you're, we have so many defenses against these things and so many distractions. And when you're in a place like that and you don't have those things, it just comes really easily. I bet. So we're, you guys were otherwise in silence the whole time. You're supposed to be. I would call it an Italian silence. Okay. So like not, Italians are some of the loudest,

funnest people on planet Earth. So I can't imagine that that's very quiet. It was flexible. Sometimes I would go into the break room to make tea or fill up my water bottle, especially at night after the programming was over and we had free time. And there would be like four or five people sitting around the snack table just having a chat at the silent meditation retreat. And you're not like, you're supposed to be quiet. No, I want to cheat too. What are you guys talking about?

Italy doesn't seem like the ideal location for a bunch of restraint all at the same time. Utah and I mostly kept the silence, but sometimes we needed to communicate with each other or we just couldn't help ourselves and we needed to like do a bit about something that happened on the retreat. So we would type each other notes in the notes app on my phone. Also, this is funny. He is show running an animated series right now, and they're in the process of drawing all of the characters for the show, right?

So he had to respond to emails from the team, and then one night at two in the morning, he had to go down to the courtyard to have a fight with one of the producers. Oh, my God. About the mock-ups for the characters, because they had a bunch of disagreements, which is just the most L.A. thing you could do at a Vosina retreat. Yeah.

Sorry, Shifu. or whatever. I like, Zen master. Yeah, that's the Chinese word. It's probably probably I don't use that. But it's like, sorry, Shufu, I have to go outside to make a quick call. Ooh, that's really against what we're doing. I fucking told you to get the dare.

If he doesn't have ears that look like a rabbit, how is he Mr. Rabbit's magical ride? That's right. God damn it. Anyway, namaste, everybody. Yeah, everyone's trying to respect the noble silence. He's scream whispering in the cloister to some guy named Todd back in L.A. About his Hulu series. Yeah, exactly.

What do you mean? it's going to be on Tobey. You promised me a streamer, a major streamer. Yeah. So did he win the fight? He won the fight. Most importantly, he's not fired. He woke up the next morning feeling very victorious. So I guess the silence did him good. But yes, theoretically for those four or five days, you're supposed to be off your phone and you're supposed to be silent. Just go inward as much as you can. Yeah. And you're meditating the entire time. I can't think of anything. I'd rather do less than that. No, we know how you feel about it. Yeah. But actually it's not. This is part of why I was able. I was like, oh, this isn't that bad. So typical day is you wake up at seven with the bells, which I recorded

and I can send you. And then you do silent meditation from 730 to 8. Then it's breakfast. Then it's walking meditation, which just means you can wander the property and you're supposed to be very meditative about it. Don't listen to a podcast while you do it or whatever. And then there would be a talk from the teacher, unless it's ours, of course, and then you're allowed. He specifically said that at the beginning. He specifically allowed feedback Fridays. He said if it's feedback Friday and it's Friday, then you're allowed to listen. Great, perfect. Can you listen to music as long as there's no words or no? He never said you can't do any of that stuff, but he said, I highly encourage everybody to stay off their phones. Give yourself the gift of this time off your phone. Yeah, I mean, that makes

sense. I think it's implied. No music, no podcast, no books. That's cool that they're not precious about it, though. Like, okay, you have something really, you're going to lose your job. You don't need me to be like, tis, tisk, tisk, you're on your phone. Exactly. Yeah. I appreciate it that too. And then there would be a talk from the teacher at like 10 and then guided meditation with a based on the theme of the talk from 1030 to 11 and then another walking meditation and then more silent meditation and then walking again and then lunch and then you would break for a few hours you could take a nap or go for a walk or journal or whatever and then you do it all again in the afternoon then it would wrap up around 9 p.m. Gosh, even one day of that would drive me nuts but I guess that's why you do it. It sounds really intense.

I think I'd be that guy faffing off on the olive groves, taking a nap in the cemetery while everybody sits in the lotus position for two and a half hours and it's like, Jordan, where'd you go? Oh, I needed a lone time. But I totally meditated while I was out there, I think. Everything is meditation if you're just staring off into the distance. Staring off into the distance. Yeah. I don't know. I got to say, this guy's approach to meditation was really awesome. He was just so chill, so down to earth, very simple, no pretension, no errors about him. There's no like, this is the way it's done. You have to do it perfectly. You have to do it like this. You're not doing it correctly. He was just very welcoming and very practical.

I like that. Yeah, that's cool. I always appreciate it when a teacher's like that. It's the ones who dress up and are super prescriptive that tend to get on my nerves. Totally. I agree. The first day when we went into the first meditation that he said, sit down and close your eyes and whatever you do, please do not meditate.

And I felt myself relax. And I was like, okay, this guy's on the level. He's cool. I can do this. That's great. So he's like, hey, don't try to meditate. And you're like, oh, then I can just sit here with my eyes closed. And he's like, oh, they're meditating now and they don't even know.

I think he was helping us not get in our own. way, you know? Like, don't try to have this experience. Just have the experience. You're having whatever that is. And that's all you need to do. He barely defined meditation. Like, he would say things like the obvious things, but he would say it very little. Like notice your thoughts. When your mind wanders, bring it back. That's it. Just do that. Any quick gems you can share from the retreat, you know, so I never have to do anything like this myself? So I got to say this dude surprised me in the topics he chose because he went to some places I did not see coming at a meditation retreat. although now on the other side, I think maybe that made him a meditator.

Probably. Part of his journey. But one thing he said early on that I really liked, he quoted his teacher who said, we don't ask questions for answers. We ask questions to generate interest. Okay. So does his teacher listen to Feedback Friday? Because that sounds like something you would say, yeah.

I know. So much of this week was so Feedback Friday coded. It was hilarious. I was like, okay. So what he means is what the answers are less important than the process? Probably. Yeah. Yeah, then the process and less important than the information that the question reveals,

which just lead to more questions, you know. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I love a good answer, but I get it. Another thing he shared that I liked, and this is not new, but he said it in a new way. He talked about how important it is to be very friendly to yourself when your mind wanders during meditation to just be like, oh, there you go again. Let's come back, like to be nice about it, to not be harsh. I meditated a lot in high school, and I was really not easy on myself.

I was always like, why can't you do the simple thing? gosh, you suck at this. You know, I was really being myself up a lot. I didn't have a meditation teacher. I was just trying to do it and I read books and stuff. Interesting. Yeah, but I think if there'd been actual resources for this for a 16, 17 year old kid to learn this stuff, other than like a karate class where they're trying to pretend they're in the military half the time, then I probably would have stuck with it or done more of it or been better at it. I don't know. But here's the thing I was doing that too. And I think most people there were doing that because you realize when you have to sit there for that many hours, you realize how insane you are and how your mind has this momentum and it just

goes anywhere but in the moment that you're in, right? And so I was also talking to myself that way. Like, I suck at this. Like you're crazy. Like what's wrong with you? Why can't you focus? But I loved his reason for saying this. He said something like, you're more likely to come home, meaning like literally to come home to visit your family, right? You're more likely to come home if you're treated with kindness when you return. I like that. Yeah, that's true. I just found it helpful. And then I start thinking about that idea in every part of my life, especially with writing, because it gets hard and it's always hard. And my tendency is to go like, well, you have no idea how to do this. You're clearly not a good writer. You should know how to write this scene by now.

You can't even focus on the, you know, maybe you chose the wrong story. Maybe you're not a real writer. And then I'm like, oh, no wonder this is torture. Yeah, a lot of harsh talk, a lot of judgment. Same with working out. I mean, the same with any skill that you're learning or that you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. This whole idea of be kind to yourself, be compassionate to yourself. I have to confess, I find it incredibly cheesy and annoying. Oh, yeah, of course. And trite and just like very hallmark, Cardi, and I've never been able to really embrace it. It's all Instagram quotes for me. I get it. I mean, I guess it doesn't mean it's not true, but whenever I see that stuff, I'm just like, whatever, my eyes roll. And that is why I love the metaphor used, you know, about coming home,

because he took this very familiar idea to a new place, and then my mind was able to go, oh, yeah, of course. What would happen if I wasn't punishing myself or not doing something correctly. Like, maybe I would do it more. What a concept. Another thing I liked, one of his talks was about the topic of joy and why joy can be so hard to feel. Oh, well, explain that. I think I definitely need help with this one. I think we all do. So his point there was, again, not super, super original, but I like the way he put it. He was like, a lot of meditation is about going toward discomfort, toward pain, toward whatever's uncomfortable, right, and trying to stay with it without trying

to do too much with it. But he said, if we're going to be willing to tolerate pain, then we also need to be equally willing to tolerate joy. But the human mind is ultimately a survival machine, right? So it has this negativity bias. We know this. And so it's designed really to seek out and fix it on what's wrong, whether it's real or not. It is not designed to appreciate what's great. But what's great is equally valuable and equally precious, even if it doesn't feel like it's like healing you or whatever. Huh. Yeah. Well, that is a big one. I know my mind will always go to the bad thing and dwell on it. rarely does my mind go, man, things are so great right now. I'm going to spend 30 minutes thinking

about how wonderful everything is. That is not how I operate at all. So at one point, he said something like the mind is oriented around problem solving. So it just misses experiences like joy because in joy, there's nothing for it to solve. Yeah, yeah, quite indeed. And then he was like, it's funny because we spend all this time trying to assemble pleasant experiences. Like, we know how to go after things that we think will make us feel better, but enjoying them is another matter entirely. I mean, it's super true. Like, all I need is an awesome lunch. That'll turn the day around. Oh, I can't wait to go to Greece. I'll finally unwind in Greece. Then you're at lunch or you're in Greece and you're like unhappy about your hotel room balcony view. Or you're thinking about work or what you have to do when you get back to work. That never totally works for me. I need weeks to unravel, to unravel, to unwind on vacation. And then if I have too much time, I unravel, I suppose. Weeks to unravel on the vacation and then weeks to recover. Yeah, a lot of the retreat was just like all of us, just, basking and the absurdity of how the mind works a lot of the time and just how it keeps moving the goalposts on us constantly. Yeah, a good metaphor. And then he was like, yeah, so this is tragic,

but it is trainable. But we have to make a home right here in this moment because that's it. That's the only solution to this. Nothing else works. So do I have to meditate to be happier? No, thank you. I'm out. You're out. What else can I tell you about this retreat? Another thing I found refreshing. this guy seemed very aware of the pitfalls of being a teacher, like how you can present as perfect or all-knowing. And he didn't say this, but it was in between the lines. Like, he was very aware of how participants at retreats can project a lot of things onto you as a teacher, like how teachers are bound to make mistakes or disappoint people.

And he said something I love that I made a note to tell you about. He goes, teachers are like incense. They smell good from a distance, which made me laugh. Yeah, I love that one. It's so important to not idealize these. teachers, even the good ones. Yeah, I agree. I could tell you many more things, but I'll leave it there. Overall, a really cool experience. I would definitely do something like this again. Actually, I would have, when I was leaving, I was like, I would have done twice as long if I could have. Because by the time

you shake off the energy of wherever you came from and really drop in, the retreat is over. So a 10-day Vibhasaan retreat doesn't sound all that crazy now. It sounds kind of fun. I've got friends who do that. Sam Harris does that. Dan Harris does stuff like this. Olivia Fox Caban does stuff like like this for people who know the charisma myth that. I mean, they all do this stuff. And you've all know, Harari, he does like a month minimum every year and he tries to do two or something like that. But is he like a month in silence in his home or is he going somewhere to do this? That's a good question. I forgot to ask him that. I can ask him that later. I'm actually curious about that myself. That's wild. A month of silence. But honestly, once I've done it, I mean, I'm sure you're still responding to emails and stuff.

So there's, it's not no communication for a lot of people, but the silence actually is more sustainable than you think. Yeah, you're right. I wonder if he's just like mostly silent and meditating most of the day or if he's like his phone is gone and his husband's handling their household and his assistant's handling his business. Yeah, I don't know. That's a really good question. But you've all really busy guy, right? He's researching. I think he might be teaching. He's traveling all over, giving talks. And so he probably does need a month off and he just chooses to spend it this way, which I would never do. But whatever he needs to do. Maybe it's not silence. He's just so sick of talking. That's actually a really good point as well. He might just be like, I'm over it, and I need a break from everybody. So are you a meditator now? Is that part of your identity? Not a good one. I can tell you that. Okay. Well, there's no good. Gabe, there's just noticing.

Yeah, you're right. There I go again. Damn. I just forgot. I already forgot. Stupid Gabe, mine. You should know better. I've been doing it twice a day since the retreat. So there's that for like 10 or 15 minutes at a time. So we'll see. I still find it very difficult, much harder on your own than when you're with 50. other people in this beautiful place. Yeah, I bet. And then in that context, you have the social pressure and the shame that keeps you sitting there. And when you're alone, it's like, well, I've sat here long enough. How long was that? A minute and a half? That's fine. I got him hungry. I want to check my email. You close your eyes and the next thing you know, you're checking the stopwatch.

You're like, when did the, how did this happen? It's still meditating when you domscroll if you do it with presents. I admire it, man. I find it torturous, but there's obviously something to it. If all of these people who are very smart and productive keep banging on about it, I'm just, I'm glad you're having these experience so I can get the benefits without having to do any of the suffering, because as you know, your boy likes to talk. I definitely think you could handle an Italian silence. Maybe. Italian silence I can maybe do, maybe for a couple of days.

Then I got to get a burger and let loose. You never know till you do it. I was, you remember, I was stressing out before the retreat. I was like, I don't know if I'm going to, I'm not thinking about this because there's nothing I can do about it, but I truly do not know. if I can get through this. And then I got there and I was like, oh, what's so bad about this? Like, just be quiet and listen. I mean, it's not easy when you're sitting there for 30 minutes, but overall, it's pretty nice. I guess you just have these ideas in your head about what something

will be like or what it'll mean, which I mean, that's probably exactly what the guy was saying about the mind in the first place. Exactly. If only there were a practice for that, like we were saying, some sort of training of some kind. No idea what you're talking about, no clue. Time to move on. Okay. Quick ad break, and then let's pollute the silence. Yeah, let's do something. it. Do us a favor and namaste through this ad break. Meditate an Italian silence on the nirvana that is our deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. And we'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner Better Help, insurance options may now be available

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Subject to change. Visit an AT&T store for details. Thank you so much for listening and supporting the show. All of the deals are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

and Gabe. My wife of 11 years works remotely in a high-tech sales role, so she travels a lot to customer meetings, trainings, and conferences. For the past four years, I've been a stay-at-home dad to our three elementary school-aged girls. She gets to focus on work while I handle many home and kid responsibilities like making dinners, doing school pickups, shuttling the kids to lessons, rehearsals and practices, volunteering at their school, etc. Unfortunately, recently, my wife admitted to having a long-term affair with a guy she first knew from college. My family became close with his family, including his wife and two sons. When they moved back to our city, their oldest kid is in second grade with my middle. My three girls loved hanging out with his two boys. We visited regularly,

we took our families out on our boat and fished, and we kept a running list of who won the card games we all played together. We vacationed with them and planned another vacation next month. The guy and I were bros. I got all. with him, and he and I were in a fantasy football league together. This is awful. So it just turns out his number one draft pick was your wife. What an a-hole. Dude traded integrity and reputation for a sidepiece in his circle.

Something tells me that this is going to ruin the whole season. No, in all seriousness, I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how many things you're replaying in your mind right now. I mean, I don't know how people like this look themselves in the mirror. Seriously. During the conversation where she admitted to having the affair, it became clear that she never planned to tell me. The guy got caught by his wife, and she had to tell me because they thought his wife was going to tell me. She told me several of her work trips weren't really work trips,

and she was with him. I learned that she had been using work travel as cover, and she and the sky had spent the last week in Mexico together when I found out. Oh, so she was like, I'm going to be at this AI data analytics conference in Redwood City all week, kill me now, and meanwhile, she's drinking margaritas with this dude in Puerto Vallarta for potentially years. this went on. It also turns out that my wife wasn't the only woman he was sleeping with besides his wife. Oh. Well, I wonder if your wife knew and was cool with it or if that was news to her because his wife just caught him texting tons of women. Yeah, I imagine it would be hard to call him out for that. Like, how dare you cheat on me with someone else while we're both cheating on our spouse, who are also friends? Like, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to claim the moral high ground in a situation like that, but I'm sure that, you know, I thought I was special. What a mess. We had a pretty intense screaming match.

I screamed at a volume, consistency, and clarity that I didn't know I had in me. And she didn't say much. It was about 12 minutes of me unloading years of pent-up emotions on her. I know it was 12 minutes because my aura ring thought I was working out. Oh, gosh. That's funny. His aura rings like, unknown activity, golfing? No, actually, I'm giving my wife a piece of my mind and punching holes in the drywall.

800 calories. Sounds about right. 100 calories for every year this is going on behind his back. What a night this must have been. I hate this. I'm sorry. I don't want to dwell on this detail, but it's crazy that he's been stuffing down all of these thoughts and feelings for so long. And he's like 12 minutes. I gave her 12 minutes of my mind. Like, I'm sure he could have done hours. Yeah, no kidding. And also would have definitely hit his step count if he had. So he goes on, I told her I texted a few lawyers I knew to recommend a divorce attorney who was, quote, a real motherfitter, unquote.

and could take the guy's side. She kept saying that I'd, quote, get half of a lot, unquote, at a few points. I told her I could make it easy, but I couldn't make it painless, and said that as a C-suite executive at a major company, she probably had a morality clause, or at least needed to make sure she never expensed anything with this guy on these so-called work trips. Ooh, that is a shot across the bow. I love that for you, but I'd more to say on that later. We had a second, quieter conversation later that evening. It was clear that she did not comprehend the layers of shit she had gotten herself into, and it wouldn't just be me versus her. It was me and this guy's wife, her family, and the guy's family against my wife. They are all completely on my side. I'll admit that things were not good

between my wife and me for some time. Communication had broken down between us. We weren't really getting along. From my perspective, she had been incredibly difficult. I felt criticized for everything I did, and her criticism was inconsistent. Whenever I felt like I had done enough, she kept moving the goalposts. Whenever I tried to invite any romantic interaction, she said, I hadn't earned it. Okay.

What did she mean by that? Like, what would earn physical intimacy for this person? Well, here's the thing. In a real relationship that's healthy, it could mean a few things. It could be a different dynamic setup or an unhealthy dynamic setup or she could have some religious right.

But in this case, it might not mean anything given that she was secretly carrying on with this other guy. It might have just been a way to get out of sex because she was already getting it elsewhere. I thought that was due to high levels of stress from her job and other things. She did O-Zempic and got an IUD, which I read messes with your sex drive. But no, she was just screwing someone else and taking all her frustrations out on me. Yeah. She told me she had given up on our marriage. Oh, I'm so sorry, man. That must have been hard to hear. But that's very

unequivocal, in my opinion. There's something to be said for knowing that so clearly. That said, still a good parental team. We're on the same page on virtually every aspect of our girls' learning, habits, and how we want them to grow up. But they're also vulnerable and struggling emotionally in various ways. Our oldest is having a bad year because her friends are rejecting her and she wants to switch schools. Our youngest has felt abandoned by the nanny who left a year ago and is still only sleeping with one of us in bed with her. And our middle child has such big emotions. What would happen if the other woman's son screamed that he hated her mom for ruining his family? I told my wife that I'm worried about our middle going to school next week.

Our ordeal would only make all of this worse. I'm torn about what to do next because being a stay-at-home dad meant I wasn't working and we relied on her income, so my options aren't so black and white. I also had a small side hustle doing a weekly news and political talk podcast. It's a great outlet. We've put out over 80 episodes, grown our audience by 4 to 5X from my our first months. It's not a huge audience, but I love doing it. My co-host has become one of my closest friends. It's a lot of fun and has opened additional doors for me, including joining a larger

project, creating news and video content for a local online political news publication that has become incredibly successful. Being a stay-at-home dad gave me the flexibility to write and shoot video content regularly. The founder was great. I'm part of an amazing team there, but for everyone but me, this was a side gig. It's really successful and I was being paid, but that was only about 1750 a month, mostly from our founder's own pocket, and it's hardly enough to live on. The problem is, in the event of a divorce, I will need way more than what this gig can give me. I'll have to find a real job with benefits. I'm not saying that's impossible, but four years out of the workforce makes it daunting, and any conventional job would almost certainly mean giving up writing

in the podcast, which would pain me tremendously. Part of me wants to go scorched earth. She broke it, and now she has to pay for it. Wisconsin is a 50-50 state. and I could fight for half of our assets, which amount to millions of dollars between the house, her company's stock, and her salary. But I can't pay for a lawyer for all that right now. Part of me wants to negotiate significant monthly spousal support. That way, we wouldn't have to fight over the assets. It would be cleaner. I'd still get something, and it would help me adjust to my new reality as a divorced dad who would need to rebuild everything. But my wife is now saying that she doesn't want a divorce. Well, color me surprised. She just found

at that she was her side piece's side piece, one of many, potentially. Gabe, I do wonder if in her mind she was like, maybe one day I'll run off with this guy, but now she knows there's a gazillion others. So she's like, oh, no, I don't want a divorce. Also, ooh, I'd have to split all my stock. That sounds expensive. No thanks. I want to stay together. I have a pretty good deal right now. I know that for my wife, not getting divorced is less about me and my feelings and more about choosing the least complicated solution. I'll still be on dad duty doing pickups and drop-offs and taking my kids to lessons and she can stay in her home office all day or travel and I can only assume screw other guys. She wouldn't have to worry about a new schedule.

Yeah, there's also that she has a really good deal right now. So part of me is considering just being the cucked stay-at-home dad until my girls are old enough to understand why we would be getting divorced. My biggest concern is how they would react and whether this would traumatize them. I'm worried that they'd blame themselves. If they're older, maybe they'll be more mature, have better comprehension. and have more outside support than they do now at this age. I also know how bad this could look once it gets out that my wife had this affair with another parent at our school, which is probably coming sooner than I wanted to.

And staying with her, I'm going to look like a schmuck. The love I had for her is almost certainly gone. I don't know if it's worth the effort to try and rebuild. I mean, it doesn't sound like if she told you she gave up on the marriage and she was never going to tell you. It's not like she had a crisis of conscience or something like that. You're saying you probably don't love her anymore. I obviously understand that.

She lied to you for literally years about this. It doesn't, what are you going to work on here? There's nothing to work on here. The whole I'm in right now seems too daunting to climb out of. What are my options? What do I do here? Signed torn between sitting back and going on the attack after finding out that my wife jumped in the sack with this guy who had a knack for making me feel like he had my back.

Oh, that nickname is hard. That hits. This is just this whole. letters brutal to read. Our boy just had a bomb dropped into the middle of his life in a way. I can't even imagine. This is very intense. It is. Obviously, any kind of infidelity is painful. But to find out that it was somebody that you were close friends with, someone you did family trips with and you went golfing with, who kept up this farce and lied to your face too and was secretly shagging your wife. I mean, it's so gross and messy. And I'm sure that makes it hurt even more. I'm honestly

amazed that he could write a coherent email in the middle of all this, because it's like it just happened. With that heart rate? Yeah. That's very impressive. Or a ring is like, hey man, slow down. Something's affecting your resting heart rate. Oh, you think?

I always get that one. Ora ring's like, something's affecting your heart rate. Are you writing into Feedback Friday? Yeah, exactly. Logging those Feedback Friday calories in this phone. I think anyone would be a mess in this situation. So there aren't enough words to tell you how sorry I am about all this. Even if your marriage had other problems, problems apart from all this, it still hurts.

It's a massive betrayal. And my heart goes out to you. man. We wanted to run your story by an expert, especially with all the legal stuff. So we reached out to Greg hit divorce attorney and mediator practicing in Austin, Texas. Greg also wanted to extend his sympathy. He's very sorry this is happening to you as well. And Greg was very clear with us. He said, you absolutely need to consult an attorney. He said, you can afford a paid consultation, which usually runs about 500 bucks worth every penny. Greg's advice steer clear of free consults, unless free consults are standard in your area, it sort of depends.

Steer clear of heavily advertised billboard family law practices. Steer clear of national law firms that promotes some sort of father's rights type representation. The whole father's rights moniker in Greg's view, it's kind of a marketing gimmick to get you in the door. I'm not sure if that's the kind of lawyer you were referring to when you talked about a lawyer who would take the guy's side, right? But that's a great pro tip. Lawyers are going to take their client's side.

That's their job. And Greg's experience, what you need is an experienced specialist who practices family law in your county, not somebody who's three states away and has associate lawyers everywhere. Tell them the facts, explain to them your situation, let them guide you. Also, even if you decide not to divorce for some reason, Greg would still encourage you to see an attorney. Because your attorney might be able to negotiate a so-called post-nup, and that'll protect you when, in his words, the inevitable divorce comes months or years down the road. Now, about going scorched earth, I certainly understand the impulse. Your wife hurt you really bad. She was cruel and reckless.

You're furious. I get it. I would be too. But Greg said you don't need to do that. And in his view, it's usually counterproductive. But insisting on your rights, that's not going scorched earth. And it doesn't mean you have to be nasty or unfair or whatever. You said that you and your wife are a good parenting team.

In Greg's view, that's great, because that will be your relationship from here on out. You guys are co-parents, nothing more really. Also, you guys have organized your lives such that one spouse is the primary breadwinner and one spouse is the primary caregiver for the children. Greg told us that in Texas, that's actually the most important factor in determining primary custody of children, absent severe dysfunction. You know, if you were an alcoholic, drug addict, whatever, you had severe mental illness that compromised your ability to parent.

If stuff like that happens, that changes things. But if you're taking care of the kids all day and she's at work all day, that kind of settles at absent external factors. So in Greg's view, expecting to continue that arrangement is not unreasonable. Now, Greg is not licensed in Wisconsin. Obviously, his comments are not legal advice, nor mine, or anybody else here on the show. But he did tell us that Wisconsin's family law statutes provide that income earned and assets acquired during a marriage are marital property, while assets that pre-existed the marriage are individual property. Now, this is a generalization. There's always exceptions to these kinds of things. Maybe that'll help you wrap your head around

what you might be entitled to here. But again, there are exceptions and nuances to these rules that you need to discuss with your attorney. And Greg was emphatic on this point. Spousal maintenance, post-divorce support, alimony, basically. That is not a substitute for a division of marital property. And I'm glad he flagged this because I sort of noticed it when you wrote in. You were like, oh, maybe I'll just get alimony. Yeah, and you should also get a bunch of stock in the house. So these are two different things. So his advice, once again, get thee to an attorney. And to help guide you there. He had some principles and some tips that I think were really excellent. He wanted to share with you. Principal one, your wife's attorney is not your attorney. Do not consult with your wife's

attorney because, you know, you want to use one attorney to save money or because it's the path of least resistance, which is common. Or she's like, I'll pay for the attorney. We'll just use one. No, cannot stress this enough. We hear it on the show from time to time. Her attorney will not represent your interests. Get your own attorney. Do not make this mistake. On a related note, do not sign anything, anything presented to you by your wife or her attorney without consulting your attorney. Do not agree to anything, you know, informally before discussing it with an attorney. I know that probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm glad that Greg reminded us. Another principle he wanted to share, probably do not tell your children why you and your wife would be getting a divorce. His take is

leave them out of this. You said your marriage was already on the rocks before all this and his experience. That's what a judge is going to assume anyway. I second this. Your girls are what? Between five and 11-11. I don't think they need to know that mom was carrying on with their dad's friend and dad felt, you know, neglected and pushed aside and disrespected in the marriage. And that's why dad lives in a studio apartment across town now or whatever. Yeah, more like, why is dad driving a Maserati to his five-bedroom house across town now, given what this spouse has? But look, I'm with Greg on that. That's a four later conversation when the kids are older and like, what do you mean your marriage was on the rocks? What was going on? Well, the triggering event, you know, and then it's like, oh my gosh. But yeah. They don't need to know when they're nine or five or whatever. His third idea for you, don't try to use the divorce as a means to show the world who's right or, again, to get back at your wife. In Greg's view, it's not going to work. And it would jeopardize the co-parenting relationship that you say works well.

So Greg had a question for you, and it's one that I would definitely encourage you to really sit with and answer once your emotions have settled a little bit more and your aura ring calms down. Do you want vengeance or do you want peace? Man, that is the question. It's a hard one to answer in the immediate aftermath of all this. Short term, obviously he wants vengeance and rightly so, but long term, obviously, you want and need peace. The thing is just adding to Greg's perspective here, you don't need to pick vengeance or peace this week. I would choose clarity this week, and for the short term. By that, I mean, take this time to work with your lawyer,

gather as much information as possible, see how your wife responds to all this. You can decide how agro or collaborative you want to be. after you have a full picture of assets, custody rules, support numbers, your wife's strategy, because if she digs in her heels and tries to screw you on this, and yeah, I wouldn't settle just to get peace. You might have to fight for your due for a little while. But once you get what you are fairly entitled to, then you embrace peace. Also, while we're on this topic, I would not threaten your wife's career. I love the implied leverage here with the morality clause and the expense reports, that might help you get a settlement if you sort of say like, hey, by the way, you know, your job's not going to like this. That might help you get a settlement. It might help you put the fear of

God into her, but I would not seriously consider taking any action on that. You do not want to set fire to the significant income stream that you're about to ask a judge to divide. That would be a hugely expensive own goal. It's a really good point. You know, your anger, your desire for justice, your impulse to hit back at her, they are perfectly understandable. And I'm sure. that your lawyer will be very keen to fight for what's fair, but in time, I would say, keep your eye on the prize, which if I were in your shoes, it would be a harmonious and high-functioning family as much as possible. It's just you cannot put a price on that. Greg's other piece of advice for you, do not let inertia make the decision for you when it comes

to whether to separate or how or when. Get out ahead of this. Find out what your rights are. If you decide to stay in the marriage, make sure that's an affirmative choice. You are making that decision because you want to and that your rights are being protected. He can't just default to staying because it's easier. As Greg put it to us, you do not want to find out a year from now that your wife has been arranging everything secretly to her advantage in preparation for a divorce filing that she is then going to do, because at that point, you are much worse off.

And finally, to quote Greg here, divorce is hard. Getting therapy during the process can be very helpful. See, guys, it's not just us saying it's the professional divorce attorney who's seen this a thousand times. Thank you for falling on the sword this week, Greg. So I want to talk about your daughters for a quick moment. I know your biggest concern right now is how they're going to react to the news, whether this divorce would traumatize them, all fair concerns. It also sounds like they were somewhat vulnerable before all of this came to light,

given the challenges that you mentioned. If you guys separate, I imagine that one of the hardest parts for them, certainly in the beginning, is just going to be the change that it creates, right? Like changes, of course, to their routines, to their relationships, to their feelings. So while you take steps to protect yourself, I would obviously also stay very close with your girls, make sure that they are being loved and cared for and listen to, which I'm sure you're going to do, and that they have as much stability and connection as possible from you, because you're the primary caregiver, and that they hear from you that this is not their fault whatsoever. If that is actually how they feel, maybe it won't be. I understand it's a fear of yours, but it doesn't mean it's going to necessarily come to pass. And maybe you tell them, you know, this is entirely between me and mom. We're finding the best version of our relationship right now. We're still great partners as parents. We're still totally focused on you guys and in that way, our family will not change. But you're in an interesting dilemma here. On one hand, you don't want to tell a six, seven, eight year old, you know,

mommy and I are splitting up because she was sleeping with Danny from school's dad. Like, that would be crazy. On the other hand, it sounds like you guys are part of a fairly close-knit community. Your two families are connected, so it's possible that your kids will find out what happened, or at least sense that there's something complicated happening in the background that doesn't totally add up. So do you prepare them for that in advance? Do you wait and see if it comes up and then deal with it? I don't know, man. This is tricky. Yeah, that is tricky. If I were in your shoes, I would probably say as little as possible about the affair to your kids, keep these conversations with them more general focus on the kids. Because like, what if you try to get out ahead of this

and you end up telling them way too much and then it turns out to be unnecessary? And then you telling them is the thing that actually traumatizes them. That sucks. Here's the deeper thing in this part of his letter. I get the sense that he's the type of person who likes to game out different scenarios and dodge problems before they can arise, right? Or at least think about them a lot so that he can be prepared if they do happen. Yeah, I mean, I get that vibe too. I'm kind of like that. So, of course, that approach is usually 20% actual strategy and 80% just grasping at control doing the what if game. Part of it is true planning and part of it is just rumination, really. And planning, okay, planning here is finding a lawyer, gathering the bank statements, figuring out housing, calculating

income and your wife's stocks or whatever in her blue chip company, all that stuff. Rumination is, oh, what are the other parents going to think? Am I going to look like a cuck? What happens if a kid says something to my daughter in three weeks? How are we going to handle that? Should I take her out of school? Should we switch schools right now? Should I get ahead of this and give a dossier on the whole thing to the school so they can deal with it? The first category of thinking is smart and necessary, and the second category is just largely pointless and going to drive you insane, take it from me. Not that I would not be driving down these same exact dead-end streets myself if I were in your shoes, but just voice of experience. And I mean, I'm not with an affair,

but like with my business thing, I remember staying up every night being like, what if they do this? Oh my God, then what am I going to do? Then I'll do that. But then, oh, my God, that's going to be off. I just did that for weeks. And my wife was like, is that productive for you? And I was like, no, but I can't stop. And that's when it was like, oh, this is like, just anxiety. This is terrible. stopped eating. It was really, really bad. So don't do that to yourself. Be aware of this and try to stop doing it. Cut to you and this guy buying a case of olive oil at a silent meditation retreat in 18 months. Exactly. Look, you can watch your monkey mind now, or you can watch it in Italy where they make you get up at 7 a.m. to sit cross-licking with no music. Your call. I know which one I'm picking.

I think you're about to realize that there's a lot in this crisis that you will never completely control, from how your wife behaves, to how your kids make sense of this news, to what other kids at school have to say about it, to whatever new responsibilities and situations this whole transition is going to create for you. And by the way, these things that you don't control, they're not all bad. Some of them might actually be good going back to that point from the retreat, you know, like right now you are crashing out and you're looking for everything that could go wrong. I think you're going to find, because it always seems to be the case, that there's bad stuff and there's also good stuff. Yeah, suffering and opportunities for sure. Over a long enough time horizon,

though, how could it be worse than this? I don't think it can. So maybe the best advice we can offer you there is by all means, yes, be strategic, be proactive, be intentional, but maybe one of the hidden upsides of this really devastating chapter is an opportunity to confront the part of you, and this part exists in, well, certainly in Jordan, but I think it exists in all of us, that wants to be able to predict and manage everything that's going to happen. There's a part of that that is genuinely loving and responsible, right? You want to protect your kids, you want to handle this divorce well, great. There's also an aspect of this that is about managing other people's emotions, giving yourself a sense of power, hoping to spare yourself certain difficult feelings. For example,

guilt about putting your daughters through this, which you didn't put them through this, but if you decide to divorce, it is going to have some effect on them. Or having to say, talk to a kid at school or their parents about not gossiping about you guys during lunch or whatever. So maybe part of your process here is going to be noticing that second kind of thinking Jordan was just talking about, the second kind of control, and make some peace with the fact that the dust is going to settle however it's going to settle. Your job, I think, is to be proactive where you can and then shift your focus to responding as kindly and as wisely as possible to each individual challenge. And trust that you will get through this transition pretty well that way. The reality is that he can't stop every bad

thing he's imagining from happening, but he can control how he responds to them if they actually arise. But Gabe, I think this control piece is especially interesting in light of the dynamic between him and his wife. It sounds to me like there was a massive power imbalance in their relationship, or maybe more accurate to say a complicated power structure in which they each develop different forms of power that created interesting challenges, right? She made the money, he took care of the kids. She apparently made him earn her affection. He didn't always communicate with her, honestly, or whatever. There's so much to say about all that. But I think one of the big things our boys struggles with in his marriage is the feeling of powerlessness. And the anger that

comes with that powerlessness. In addition to the breakdown in communication and the criticism and all their other challenges, that's why his O-R-R-Ring thought he was doing a hit workout when he finally unloaded on her, right? He's been stuffing down a lot for a really long time, and all of a sudden he had permission to just let it all out because, you know, she wasn't going to stop him then. So this whole topic of grasping at control, I think that probably serves several purposes. One of them might be a subtle strategy to reclaim the power he didn't have at his marriage. And so his mind might be going, I didn't have power in my life. marriage, but at least I can have power in ruminating over all these things that were

resolved from the divorcer and trying to game out all these scenarios, then I'll be prepared. I'll let you decide if that resonates, maybe it does, maybe not. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that too, but I share that because I see a connection between these two parts of your story. I have a feeling that's going to be a big theme for you and all this agency, your relationship with it, how you tap into it effectively. Also, man, just one piece of semi-gross practical advice, I would get an STI test immediately. your wife had a long-standing affair with a guy who had at least one other partner that you all know about

and probably a bunch that weren't in the texts, who knows? So Lord only knows what exotic strains of bacteria he's been collecting around whatever the Bay Area or wherever you guys live and delivering to your wife. Maybe you're lucky she wouldn't, you know, hook up with you. Maybe she spared. In fact, look, pure speculation. Maybe she didn't want to give you the thing she was taking antibiotics for in the first place. and that's why she rejected you.

Who knows? Maybe you dutched a bullet, dude. Wow. Calls for speculation, but it's not, I guess it's not impossible. Not impossible. As for your career conundrum, I got to say, I was chuckling a little when you talked about your stress about getting a real job and not being able to do your podcast. Dude, your wife has serious assets, man.

She cheated on you. You're about to get half or something close to it. Plus, potentially spousal support because she works a crazy lucrative job and you are taking care of the kids and family. Look, this is me talking here. This is not Greg, not your lawyer. You go and you take half of her Adobe stock or whatever, and you good, homie. You're retired, okay? You're still going to have to take care of your kids, obviously, but you don't have to go get a job. You work on your podcast with your bros. You join the rest of us dorks and do it for the love of the game and enjoy it. I doubt you have to set foot in an office ever again.

You leave that to your wife, who has to rebuild her net worth. And it sounds like she's got a lot of long work days ahead of her to do that. Half that stock, you can sell it, you can take loans against it, you're going to get the spouses. I mean, come on, you don't have to go work some entry-level job because you've been out of the game for four years. L-O-L, sir. I'm very sorry you're going through this. I'm sorry for all the pain this has caused you and your daughters, but I'm confident you can find a way to move through this together. I'm actually, this is weird. I'm kind of excited for you because you get to start another life free from all the baggage and drama with your ex, for the most part, co-parenting, but I think you're going to get a grip of cash. Take that bag and run and use the

goodwill right now that you have from her screwing up your entire life to get a really delicious settlement. Your attorney will help you with that. Sending you and your girls a big hug, your wife, I don't know. I don't really want to give her a hug, especially before you get all that blood work done. But I suppose I wish her well too, because she's obviously struggling with some difficult stuff as well. And I'm not just talking about those expense reports for next quarter. Wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us Friday at George. Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your narcissistic parent is

compromising your marriage, or your precocious and brilliant child just hacked your phone and you're torn between punishing her and praising her. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right. You know who doesn't f*** around? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Mint Mobile. I watch my kids enjoying summer without a care in the world. Must be nice having your housing, food, and utilities covered. While your biggest concern is who got a bigger popsicle,

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get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates, and other insurers. Not available in all states. All right, back to Feedback Friday. What's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, recently my sister-in-law and her husband's house got raided by the FBI, local PD, and CPS. Whoa, it, what is happening this week? Holy smokes. They had a warrant for his electronic devices and passwords.

Ew, white-collar crime, or I don't know, the CPS angle makes me think it's not white-collar crime. He's now being investigated by the FBI. According to the FBI, a crypto account he had from 2020 to 2023 had been, used to make purchases of child sexual material in 2025. Oh. My sister-in-law's husband has the email from when he closed out that account in April of 2023 and the FBI said several times that the crypto was for the purchase but not a download. Yeah.

What does that even mean? No idea. The purchase but not a download. Like someone purchased the C-Sam but didn't download it? Who cares if it's not his account? That's weird. I don't get that. CPS showed up because they have my niece and nephew in the house. My nephew is an adult, but my niece is still a minor. Both were questioned about my sister-in-law's husband and released. In the process, CPS saw the condition of their house, which was messy, and gave them a week to get things cleaned up. About six days later, local PD came by with an arrest warrant for my sister-in-law and her husband. My nephew called his grandmother, my mother-in-law, and she came and took my niece to stay at her house. My sister-in-law and her husband spent five days

days in jail before seeing a judge. Both the judge and CPS had no idea why they were brought in. The woman from CPS told the judge that she had given them time to clean up the house and hadn't even started working on their case. The judge also reprimanded the local PD for going to another judge to get the warrant. They then got released, but CPS issued a no contact order for my niece and a follow-up court date a few weeks out. When that court date came, the local police failed to show up, so my sister-in-law and her husband ended up getting a continuance, but with separate court dates for each of them. CPS called a few members of the family to get character references on my sister-in-law or husband. CPS had names and birth dates either wrong

or mixed up, and had to be corrected on every call. CPS also had no clue on where my niece was, since the case officer didn't take her into foster care, remember she was living at her grandmother's. My wife and I are currently doing everything we can to help, such as picking up our niece from school and relaying messages from my sister-in-law because of the no contact order. But now her husband isn't being very helpful on his case with the FBI. When they asked him for his passwords, he said no. Okay, but I would do the same. Refusing to help law enforcement potentially stitch you up for something you didn't do,

that does not infer guilt. Any lawyer would be like, don't give them the passwords if you're not compelled to by law. The FBI asking you for your passwords to fish for what you did because they don't have enough evidence to pin it on you yet? No, that is not evidence of guilt. In a way, you could argue it's the opposite. So they took his two phones, work and personal, and a laptop that my sister-in-law and her husband say no one really used but was in a communal space. As of right now, they have no new updates regarding the local PD, CPS, or the husband's FBI case. We don't want to think he's the type of guy who would do something like what they're accusing him of, but his actions aren't helping

his case. Based on this letter, I'm not totally convinced of that. I guess I, I, I get why he's saying that. What I'm hearing is this guy sold or closed this crypto wallet before the allegedly criminal purchase and he has proof that he sold it or closed it and he isn't volunteering to give law enforcement access to devices for a crime that he didn't commit. I just want to be clear about what we're hearing here. Might not have committed because we don't know. He probably says he didn't commit it. Not I might not have committed it, right? Well, we don't know if he did or not.

Yeah, I have other thoughts on this that I'll share in a moment. Okay, I'm very curious. So he wraps up. what could we do to help my sister-in-law and her husband out, and what can we do to help get our niece back home with her parents? Doing right by my niece and trying to figure this out piece by piece now that her parents are tied up with the police. Oh boy, what a mess. C-SAM, multiple investigations, weird law enforcement investigation stuff, now custody issues, this is a cluster. So first of all, really sorry this is happening to your family. I'm especially sorry for your niece and nephew. It's got to be just awful for them to watch this happen.

to their parents, for your niece to be separated from her parents. I don't know how old she is. Obviously, it's harder the younger she is, but whether their parents are guilty of any crimes or not, this is just extremely sad. So I got to say candidly, a lot of the details in this story are very curious and rather confusing, but I think that's actually part of your story. So we wanted to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to Mary Hegart, an attorney who worked for over 10 years in dependency court in Los Angeles County and has represented parents and children in child welfare cases. And just FYI, Mary's experiences in California, she said other states probably deal with child welfare in different ways, of course. So Mary had a bunch of questions about your

story, and I'm glad she did, because so do I. But for one thing, if the warrant and investigation focused on your sister-in-law's husband, and it was his devices that were seized, why was she arrested? Is she implicated in this, too? Did law enforcement turn up evidence? about both of them? That's a bit odd. You also said that your nephew and niece were questioned about their parents and then they were released. To whom? Presumably their mom, who was then admonished by CPS to clean the house? Yeah, but then Mary felt that the messy house was a weird detail as well. In her experience, the house would have to be so bad, like major hoarding or severe insect at rodent infestation or something like that for the social worker to even get into this topic

of clean up the house or there's going to be a problem. This could not have been like laundry, lying around in dirty dishes in the sink. Exactly. Yeah, it has to be like, hey, there's cat feces rubbed into the carpet and your kids are, you know, not dressed and it's on their clothing and they smell. I mean, that's child welfare stuff. Not like, hey, you didn't make the beds.

Mary was also puzzled by the fact that local law enforcement came and arrested the parents and then left their son to call his grandmother who came and got his sister. And Mary's experience, if kids were home when law enforcement showed up, the cops would have called a social worker to come to the scene and make sure the minor was cared for. Now, maybe that did happen, and the social worker allowed the grandmother to have custody of the child. Maybe that happened. Mary reminded us that the law favors placing children with relative caregivers over foster care.

If this case ended up in juvenile court, then the judge would be required by law to make orders regarding your niece's placement. And they would have likely followed the recommendation of the social worker placing your niece with her grandmother. But then when it came to the court date, you said both the judge and CPS had no idea why they were brought in. that was weird to me and Mary said she doubts this happened. I mean, they ended up in court, right? The case is on the docket. And the judge and CPS are like, huh, weird, what are you guys doing here? That's got to be our mistake. That just does not add up at all. Also, this was probably a juvenile court hearing, not a criminal one because CPS would not be a party in the criminal matter. They probably wouldn't be present at an arraignment as far as we know. If this was an initial hearing in juvenile court,

often called detention, then the social worker might be present. You also said that the judge repriments. mandated the local PD for going to another judge to get the warrant. I don't know. Maybe that happened. Maybe it didn't or not quite that way. Again, to Mary's ears, this sounds like nonsense, to use her words. I mean, why was there another judge in their case? What other judge? Was there another matter with these parents before another? Something about this just didn't quite add up for her. Yeah, so many of these details, again, don't make sense. Don't add up, whatever to me either. And then you said CPS issued a no contact order for your niece. Mary explained to us that CPS actually has no authority to issue a restraining order. A judge in either the criminal or juvenile matter could issue a restraining order,

or the judge in the juvenile matter could have just made a court order for the parents not to have any contact, which is the more likely scenario in Mary's experience. She was also curious to know whom the stayaway order applies to. Is it dad? Is it dad and mom? If so, why mom as well? And then there's this detail about how your brother-in-law doesn't even know when his next court date is. That is baffling. Surely, they each have an attorney representing them, right? They should be able to tell them when their court dates are. I have to imagine they'd be pretty keen to know when to show up to court and how all of this is going to move forward,

unless they are not seeking good counsel and are deliberately burying their heads in the sand, which I guess is possible, but I can't relate to that at all. If I had a case that was going to court, I would know that date. I'd know it better than the back of my hand. Also, Mary said that juvenile courts move faster than criminal courts, so even before the criminal matter is adjudicated, the juvenile court could theoretically make a finding that the dad, and possibly the mom, possessed the CSAM, and order some kind of case plan to rehabilitate the parents. In that case, if they don't complete the court-ordered programs, then the court could permanently

remove custody from the parents. Just something to be aware of, that these are two parallel tracks, and these two court systems have different timelines, different sentences and remedies, different implications. And actually, Mary said that this might be part of the confusion here, that there are two parallel proceedings going on and you maybe are conflating them. So for all these reasons, Mary felt that respectfully, you sound a little confused and maybe a little naive about what's really happening. But she also said that that's understandable, because in her experience, you've probably

been told one version, possibly a limited version or even a BS version of what's going on. And look, we assume you're getting your information from your in-laws, and at best they're probably unreliable narrators right now. Now, look, we obviously can't know for sure what your brother-in-law did or didn't do, knew or didn't know. Maybe he's totally innocent, and this is just a horrible mix-up. He sold his crypto, somebody used Ethereum that was in an account that he lost control of to buy CSAM and it traced back to him.

Look, I want to say that that's very unlikely based on how the blockchain works. I suppose it's theoretically possible, given a failure of several different things. or this guy really did buy the CSAM with his crypto and he's guilty. Mary's take was, naturally you don't want to believe that a relative is capable of this type of behavior. Based on her experience with CSAM clients, sadly she said this guy is behaving a lot like somebody who is guilty. Now, I'm not totally sure I agree with that

because we have all these confusing details, as I said earlier. I think these facts are just highly ambiguous. But I also don't have Mary's experience. Maybe she's seen this kind of thing a hundred times and knows how these cases tend to go. But I do think that's an interesting perspective. So Mary's very direct advice about how to help your niece, everyone involved has to play ball.

To quote her here, the bottom line for any parent who is brought into juvenile court is that the way to get the child back in their custody is to follow the orders of the court. Full stop. Love that. Love the advice.

Love the full stop. Was that deliberate? Thanks, Mary. I think it was. That's long and the short of it, she said. And look, your niece's age, like Jordan mentioned,

is obviously very relevant here. If she's 17, this is a much less fraught situation. Her parents can just wait it out. But if she's, you know, like eight, 10, 12 years old, then they're going to have to follow this reunification plan, whatever it is scrupulously, if they want to be reunited with their daughter. That, of course, is putting aside the question of whether she should be reunited with their parents, given what they might have done, but that's another question. And about having a better grasp of the case, Mary said that you might be able to go to the court and get the minute orders for the various hearings so that you and your whole family can see what the court orders actually are. But because you're not a party to the case, Mary said it's possible that you might not be

entitled to access them. You know what? You could drive your sister-in-law or her husband to the court to get the minute orders. They should be able to request them. And Gabriel, this would be such a tell now that I think about it. Yes. Like, yeah, I'd love for you to read the court orders because it's just such a mess and you can see how we're being railroaded. And if they're like, oh, our lawyer says that we can't because they haven't been created because this whole thing's a mix up and they're just going to throw the case out so they don't exist and that's like uh-huh no we'll go we'll go and we'll send it later to you like that would be interesting yeah there there's a tell here because i know if i'm accused of a crime and i'm innocent i'm posting the flipping minute orders of my family group chat look

yeah that's going straight to facebook absolutely not hey i've been falsely accused of child child sexual abuse material can you guys believe it uh but no like i would want everybody who knows about this to know that this is a cluster and look at this mess and these documents and how angry the judge is and the transcript says, why are these people they shouldn't even be here? Like, I want that on the record that everybody can see. So there's no doubt that I'm being railroaded. But if I did it and I'm lying to everybody,

then I'm going to make up a bunch of excuses as to why I can't get these minute orders. Absolutely. And if I could just run with that for a second, I got a little dark gay pitch. A few days before you go drive them down to the court to get the minute orders, buy your sister-in-law's husband an aura ring as a gift

and then measure his heart rate when you invite him to go get them. minute orders. Yeah. The problem is they don't allow aura rings in prison, so it's going to sit in the box for a while after that. Bro's not in prison, right? He's out. Not yet. Not yet. But if he just freaks out when they go to look at what the judge actually set, I think that might be interesting data. Another option, though, if your niece has an attorney herself or a guardian ad litem in her case, you could try to contact that person or the social worker and say to them basically, hi, I'm so-and-so, I want to make sure I'm up to speed on this case. Can you tell me what's going on to the extent that you

can. What does my sister-in-law need to be doing right now? What's the probable timeline here? Is there anything you can share with me to give me more insight on this case? Anything you can do to help. We'd really appreciate it kind of thing. And of course, your in-laws should have both have the best possible representation right now. I say that, knowing again, we might be talking about somebody who bought CSAM, but this is just blanket advice and it's directly related to Q1. You do not want to navigate this system with bad representation or no representation. That is a recipe for disaster. Yeah, interesting theme on today's episode. And your in-laws probably need to be a lot more proactive about staying on top of their case. Beyond the legal stuff, you're already helping care for your niece. I would also hope that you and your wife are giving her a lot of love and as much stability as you can during what I assume is a very tough and a very confusing time. Keep doing that. Invite her to talk as much as she wants. Lean on you guys as much as she needs while this weird process unfolds. And that's about all you can do. Unfortunately, which means that you and your wife mostly kind of have to sit back and allow this thing to take.

it's coarse. And yeah, just sit with the sadness and the confusion and I can only imagine discomfort and frustrate. You know, it sounds a lot like my silent meditation retreat. All of these terrible feelings that come with something like this. This sounds like a strange and potentially troubling case. You and we do not have enough information to know for sure what your brother-in-law did or didn't do. But maybe that's besides the point. Right now, the point is two children, one of them a minor, are probably being affected profoundly by this event. and you and your family's job is to look for ways to support them however you can, and just love them and be of service to your family.

And yes, appropriately support their parents as well. While also pushing for as much information as possible so you can be truly informed and being a tad more ambitious and discerning about the facts in this case. Very sorry you guys are going through this. Wishing you, your wife, your niece and nephew, all the best. And good luck. Big thanks to Mary Hegart for her insight and experience here as well. All right, Gabe, you know it's a better use of your money than shopping the dark web.

the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Any problems with any codes? Can't find a code, something out working email us, Jordan atjurbinger.com. Someone here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler.

My recommendation of the week is an online app called TurboScribe. TurboScribe is really, it's super simple, really easy way to get an accurate, high-quality transcription from an audio or video file. So let's say you've got a YouTube link and you're like, oh, I need the transcript for my class or I want to grab something and use it for another project. This is actually 100% free for up to three files per day, up to 30 minutes per day. up to 30 minutes per file. No credit card required. And they say they never train AI on your transcripts, although, you know, everything in the world is already in there anyway. Who cares, in my opinion? But if it's something personal, they're not going to upload it to AI and have it save. They love and they welcome the free users. They're not going to bug you constantly to upgrade. Their paid plans are

also affordable. I'm a paid user. It starts at 10 bucks a month. And all of the paid plans include unlimited transcription. So it's something you can use. If you have a podcast and you want transcripts, you're paying a really expensive piece of software that does a million other things to transcribe, you might be paying per episode what you would pay per month with TurboScribe paid edition. And you might even be able to get away with using it for free, depending on how long your stuff is. You can find this at turboscribe.aI. We'll link to that in the show notes. It's run by a single dude.

It's just a really easy and useful tool. turboscribe. All right. What's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, a while back you shared some words from a family who had just lost their father who was a devoted show fan. They shared some details about his life with you guys and you were both touched. Yeah, Pete De Nella. What a sweet guy. Pete De Nella. Nice to remember Pete.

Shout out to Pete and his family, who I hope still listen. I have a little weird feeling. I'm going to get a little emotional in second year. It's a good thing I don't meditate. I'd actually have to sit with those feelings. No, thank you. You'll cry about this letter in three weeks. Well, here I am in a similar situation. My 92-year-old mom has been ill for a few months and yesterday she shared with me that she had made the decision to not fight any longer. Dang, why do you guys do this to me? While no one knows how long she'll last in her new state of mind, we have that clock running out feeling.

Oh, so sorry, friend. That is intense. A few years ago, I was driving my mom somewhere. I hadn't figured out how to play GPS without playing a podcast at the same time. So naturally, we listened to a Feedback Friday episode, punctuated by the sound of turn left at the light. Uh, yes, the way the show was meant to be enjoyed with a voice. just in constantly saying accident ahead, traffic ahead.

Accident ahead would actually be a highly relevant soundtrack for Feedback Friday. That is definitely for Q1s and in this case, Q1s and Q2s. That's for sure. We should sample that for the sound bites and use it. Going to get sued by alphabet, but yeah, I'll get on that. When it's not as stressful of a story, it's traffic ahead. And then every so often it would be like, is the cop still there? Does Google Maps ever asking that?

No, is that a thing? Yeah, like if they tell you if there's a cop, like a speed trap, and then it'll pop up on your GPS and you can say if it's still there. and that's how they gathered the data. I did not know that. No, I guess I don't use that feature. So she goes on. My mom became a show fan,

and we often like to talk about episodes or listen to them together. Fast forward, and she's formed the habit of listening to podcasts as she sleeps. The past couple of nights she wanted an all Jordan Harbinger show feed. She was very patient while I fiddled with her phone to cue a bunch of your episodes.

My mom is spending the time she has left in the nursing wing of her retirement community, getting daily messages from a wide variety of people in her life. I'm able to visit her every day after work, and the family members she loves the most are flying in for the weekend. No one wants to say goodbye, but she's doing it right. Sure is. Lucky lady. But then, plot twist, possibly spurred by a surprise visit from close family, my mom rallied in the last few days. She's gone from seemingly preparing for an imminent exit and unable to sit up in bed without help,

to a renewed interest in some projects she had going on before getting sick, and planning and thinking about what her life will look like with some limitations she didn't have before. She looks like a whole new person. The change has been sudden, dramatic, and altogether welcome. Wow, yeah, that's amazing. I don't want to take all the credit, but I will take at least half the credit. Come to think of it, her turn for the better occurred after two solid nights of listening to your show. I'm glad we're on the same page. You're welcome. Put me in the will. My mom now spends most of the day thinking about stuff that she wants to get done. Like the will that I'm going to be in? Yeah.

That's right. Only you, not Gabe. No. A fair bit of which relies on my help. So that's H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R, and I'll send you a mailing address for the disbursement check. I say A-C-H is fine, too. Use wise, please, just for the fees. It must be incredibly frustrating for someone who has been so independent to have to scale back her expectations so far. We're keeping a shared checklist, and I can knock off a few items each week.

but I need to make sure I'm also taking care of myself. She has an amazing community, tons of support, but some stuff just needs to be done by me. So now there's worry, happiness, being on edge, this responsibility, and some anticipatory grief, a lot rattling around. I bet. What was that phrase you taught me the other week?

The full tumbleweed, something. The full tombola. Yeah, that's what she's going through, the full tombola. Dr. Margolis is listening to this episode, cracking up in her car right now. Yeah, this is the definition of the full tumbola. She is in touch with everything. So she wraps up.

How can I best support my mom in this new phase? Any advice for navigating the complex emotions that come with such extreme uncertainty? Signed, celebrating this longer lifespan, but struggling to come up with a game plan after my mom's miraculous turnaround. That doesn't rhyme, but I'll allow it. What a letter. I was hoping you would seize on that fact. Yeah. I was like, is he going to notice that game plan and turn around?

And it doesn't rhyme. No, I'm going to notice. Of course I'm going to notice that. I'm not the only one who noticed it. I've 100,000 people just went, huh? Every writer has his lesser works. They're not all bangers. Facts.

Okay. Yeah, I had to do it. Anyway. Criticism aside, this letter is very touching. And dramatic. I was like, oh, no, I see where this is heading. Then she had this miraculous turnaround because of me. That's got to be quite a roller coaster for both of them, actually.

Life is wild, man. One day you're like, okay, got to start saying goodbye to my mom, I guess. and then queue up a few dues cruises, and next day you're like, okay, let's tackle the garage together. Let's do this. That's right. Yeah. Mom wants a squirrel box in the backyard. Exactly.

Which future are we planning for here? My crushing grief or my overwhelming joy that I get more time with my mom? Yeah. Funny how that idea keeps showing up on today's episode. I didn't plan that. I suppose it's always both, right? So how do you support your mom in this new phase? Big question.

Right. And also an ambiguous question. Because like, what is this new phase? It's hard to say. It's confusing. Like she said, a ton of uncertainty. Maybe your mom's tapped into some new life energy and she sticks around for many more months, hopefully as long as possible, of course. Or maybe she's found a second win, which is awesome, but it's a temporary phase. Or she's going to move between the two a few times.

It's kind of impossible to know with these things. Such a mystery. Right. So what does your mom really need right now, you know? I would follow that. Obviously, she needs help with certain practical things and a lot of those things are in your interest too. Projects you guys want to finish while she's around. Administrative stuff you guys need to take care of, estate planning. I generally prefer cash, but I'll take property in a pin, organizing friend and family visits, all that stuff. On that note, I would say definitely support your mom in making the most responsible decisions about her affairs now while she's around and sound, making sure those beneficiary forms for her pension or investment accounts are complete and up to date. Make sure her will and trust are airtight, for real. Make sure they don't include

or ex-husbands or have a misspelled name on them, and they've been updated since your youngest siblings were born, all that jazz. Anyone your mom wants to talk to or spend time with, obviously that's something you could help her with. You know, if she's got friends or there's family that would normally have flown in, but it was too late. Now is the time. Getting around to any appointments taking care of herself.

You're probably on top of that part, but you're probably asking more like, what does she need emotionally? And I imagine it's a few things. tenderness, togetherness, intimacy, time and connection with you, with the people she loves, which, again, it sounds like you're already giving her, probably a sense of being cared for and being listened to. Maybe your mom wants to talk about what it's like to be her age in this stage of life and everything it brings up. Maybe she wants to tell stories, relive old memories. I'm sure listening to her would mean a lot to her. I know it'll also create some great

memories for you after she's gone and make you feel like you spent your time with her wisely. I mean, that's ultimately all there is, right? Just you and the other person talking or not talking, just being with each other. It sounds to me like your mom is meeting this huge transition pretty well with a lot of clarity, a lot of conviction. There's sadness here, but that's great, you know, that she's getting to choose how she wants to go. But anybody who's approaching death must be in touch with so many things, fear and anxiety and sadness and worry, but also, who knows, maybe like relief, maybe even curiosity, everybody is different. So if your mom seems to want to talk about that stuff with you. I know not everybody wants to, but if she does, then I think listening and being

in those feelings with her, that would be a really great gift as well. And look, if you're ever unsure about what she needs, you could literally say, hey, mom, what's on your mind? Do you need anything? How can I support you? And see what she says. Maybe she knows and she'll tell you, or maybe she doesn't, but you can help her find it. Totally. That's an act of love too, right? Just asking that question. Your second question is kind of one of my favorites. How do we navigate the complex emotions that come with such extreme uncertainty. That is the question, yes. So not to be that guy who just came off of a silent meditation retreat, but to absolutely be that guy who just came off of silent meditation retreat. Oh, Gabi, namestays over here. I like your word, navigate, as opposed to

manage or cope with or, I don't know, get rid of. A big part of your job right now, it seems to me, is to just let those feelings be. I mean, they're happening, they're appropriate. You're saying goodbye to a parent, it's a very big loss. And the fact is, there is not a ton to be done with these feelings except, of course, feel them and let them remind you how much your mom really matters to you. I agree with that despite my roasting. Navigating them could also mean asking yourself, okay, what would be the best use of this feeling? Like, how can I direct it in a way that would make this time with my mom even more valuable? So if you're feeling, let's just say super sad one day that you don't know how much longer your mom is going to be here, you could use that feeling

to really make the most of your interactions with her, to really be present when you're with her to extend your trip home and spend extra time with her, or if you're feeling another day, let's just say, angry, also a big part of grief, maybe you channel that anger into making plans with your mom or being more ambitious about the projects you want to tackle with her, asking yourself how you want to spend your own life based on what you're learning by watching your mom go through this. And same with anxiety, same with fear, same with anticipatory regret. These are all very meaningful responses to the massive question mark that you and your mom are facing. But ultimately, the only thing we can really do with uncertainty is just remember to enjoy,

make good use of whatever you have right now and enjoy what else is there. Yeah, so true. I totally sound like a guy who just bought a case of Benedictine olive oil. I realize. Yeah. Hopped up on pure awareness, bro, but all we have is now. That is it. Now. What else is there? So how are you going to use this now or the string of nows however long it lasts with your mom? That's the question. Hits blunt. For sure, though. It's something I think about with my parents, too, especially my mom, obviously, like, we all know where this is going. We all are heading for the same place. It's freaking terrifying. But then I go, all right, you can't change the facts. You can't know what you can't know. So how are you going to spend today?

How are you going to spend the next hour, the next five minutes? That's it. I don't always manage to do this well, but I'm trying, and it's just so easy to forget. But listen, if you ever have days where you just don't know what to do for your mom or how to deal with these feelings, I think a helpful question is, if mom died sooner than I expected, what would I wish I'd done? And then you have your next step. Go do that thing. But then there's the equally important inverse, which is, if she lives another two years, what will I regret having sacrificed because I treated every single second like it was her last? You can't neglect your health and your relationships and your career because you're in constant anxiety that she could go any minute. You don't want to lose yourself entirely

in this process. You also have to have a reasonable balance with your own. needs. Which will also help you make the most of your time with your mom. So very important. Both your futures deserve consideration here. So no, Pat answers to these big questions, more like approaches and a general awareness. Oh, who's drinking olive oil now? Awareness. I knew you're going to catch on that. What can I say? Your silent meditation vibes rubbed off on me today. Bit easier to embrace with these big existential questions. Very sorry you're having to say goodbye to your mom. I can only imagine how intense that must be. I am not looking forward. to going through that same process, maybe soon myself.

But you seem to be doing an amazing job, all things considered, and you're asking all the right questions. So thank you for writing in. Big thanks to your mom for being part of our show family. Love that she joined the dues crews and glad our voices can put her to sleep at night. Again, you are welcome for keeping her alive. We are sending you both a huge hug

and wishing you lots of great moments together and many more episodes of this very show. Don't forget the episodes with Jeff Scoop, former neo-Nazi leader here in the United States for 25 years, and the episode on Travel Health with Andrew Her, founder of Fly Kit. Have a listen to those if you haven't done so yet. Go call your mom if you haven't done that yet. Shout out to our listener for that important reminder. Literally go do it right now. Well, not right now because I'm about to plug my networking course and remind you to support our sponsors. But in about 30 seconds, call your mom and then

thank me later. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. Six-minute networking is free. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy, it's on the think-iffic platform at six-minute networking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them. Six-minute networking.com is where you can find it. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created an association

with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Titus Adlauskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Greg Higgart. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with someone else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Okay, now go call Mom during these cheesy and potentially irrelevant post-roll ads.