The Jordan Harbinger Show - 164: How to Rescue Your Loved One From an MLM Scam | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Jason DeFillippo (@jpdef) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now, let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: What's the best way to let your parents know you appreciate all they've done for you -- especially when they let you live with them rent (and guilt) free while paying down your credit card debt? It's your absolute dream to become a race car driver, though you don't really have experience working with cars and don't want to get stuck in sales or marketing. What's your best next step? You need money, but your hours have been cut. Is it ethical to pick up freelancing work that might put you in competition with your main job? Your current boss feels threatened by your rising star status and seems determined to sabotage your progress. How do you navigate the politics of appropriately pushing back? How can you convince a loved one that the MLM (multi-level marketing) business they're involved with is never going to make them rich no matter how much time is devoted to it? Life Pro Tip: Leave your contact information with all involved parties if you witness an accident. Quick shoutout to Rojenski! Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Jason on Twitter at @jpdef and Instagram at @JPD, and check out his other show: Grumpy Old Geeks. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! UFC Superstar Chael Sonnen speaks his mind and interviews MMA studs and legends on You're Welcome! with Chael Sonnen every Wednesday and Friday here on PodcastOne! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger, and I'm here with producer Jason DeFilippo. Here on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we love having conversations with our fascinating guests. And this week we had Caesar Milan. He is just supernatural when it comes to training dogs. He is simply amazing. We talk about dog training, of course, but mostly as it pertains to humans, because what we found out was that training dogs is 60% or more training the human owner, which I thought was fascinating. And his backstory is just something else, Jason. He came over with no money, had to go through a coyote to get across the river and get into the United States and just the only thing that he knew how to say was, can I have a job application in English? Which is so cool.

It's so cool. It's just like, okay, I don't know what else to put on it, but I, and how did he actually figure out how to fill out the application? Because it was in English. Yeah, good point. He probably just like drew pictures of dogs and him. Yeah, seriously. A picture of a Rottweiler. I can do Rottweilers.

Yeah. Really well. We also had Todd Herman talking about the alter ego effect. In other words, how to use a little bit of visualization, but mostly superhero kind of alter ego, superpower stuff that he uses when he trains a lot of elite athletes, and he's teaching us how to do that. And I think this stuff is fascinating. I've been using it.

I really enjoy it. A recent post I did was how to make friends as an adult, surprisingly difficult. A lot of people have written in about. this and so I thought I'd do sort of a deep dive post on that and that's at Jordan Harbinger.com slash articles so take a look and take a listen there to all that of course our primary mission here on the show is to pass along our guests insights and our experiences and insights along to you in other words the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you that's what we're

going to do today here on Feedback Friday you can reach us at Friday at Jordan harbinger.com concise is always better and Jason we've had some great guests We've got a lot of really cool guests coming up. I personally need a little bit of a break. I know people always go, how do you get so much done? Don't you burn out? And I'm like, yes, the answer is yes, I do. Yes, you do.

You are the hardest working man in pod business. That's right. You're like the James Brown of podcast. Speaking of which, I'll be at Podfest coming up here in March. So if anyone's going to that, come say hello. I'm going as a representative of Himalaya, which is a... I will be there with you, too. Oh, that's right.

I forgot about that. That's right. You're going to be there. Yep. So if you guys want to come hang out and have a drink with us, we will be there in Orlando. That's right. Orlando, Florida. Florida. So if you're in no, sorry, I know a lot of people are going to go, I'm not going to Podfest, but I live in Orlando.

Can we meet up? I'm really afraid not because we are so busy. I would love to. Don't get me wrong. But we, with Podfest stuff, when I go to these events for podcast stuff, I'm barely able to sleep because it's like wake up breakfast meeting gym event event event event event after event event thing late night thing peel myself away to go to bed hey don't forget to get up at six and go to this thing it's like that's those things all the time and even then i leave and i go sorry i didn't get a chance

to see half the people at the thing and meet with half the people at the event it's impossible so i will do something in orlando eventually but i can't leave the event but please if you're going to be a podfest come say hi, email me Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com, and we'll figure out how to run into each other. All right, Jason, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jason and Jordan. I'm a 30-year-old man, and I just recently left the bird's nest. I know, sad. Hey, I live in the Bay Area, so cut a brother some slack. Yeah, leaving the nest here, you need $2 million. Yeah, no doubt. I had a reason why I stayed at home for so long.

I put myself in $25,000 worth of credit card debt right out of college. Yeah, that'll do it. Trust me. Yeah, seriously. I mean, that's a chunk of change. That's a lot of Xboxes. Yeah. Trust me, I've since learned my lesson and paid off the debt, hence why I recently moved out.

My guilt stems from feeling like I cheated my parents. They're both blue-collar workers in the restaurant industry and still managed to pay for a roof over our heads, stock the fridge with essentials, and take care of us. They never once asked me to pay a dime not for rent, not for utilities, not nothing, and I never offered to pay for anything. I also recently got a six-figure job, which was one of the factors in getting myself out of debt quicker. Wow. Now my folks are... That's pretty good. That's one way to do it.

Get a crazy high-paying job. Now my folks are living in the same rundown apartment while I find myself in a one-bedroom apartment in a gated community. Well, Mr. Fancy Pants. Yes. As I packed up my last bag and hugged them goodbye, I started to tear up because I felt ashamed that they were going to remain stagnant, living in the same hood, while I earn more than both of them combined. I couldn't muster a word to say and just darted out the door. In my culture, it's typically expected that the kids will eventually provide for their parents. I feel like a failure.

What should I do to rid myself of this guilt? Thanks for the help. Guilty moocher son. Well, congrats. 5K and dead is a tough lesson for sure and the fact that you overcame that is pretty awesome. Although, Jason, I love the fact that he just like moves out of his parents' apartment and is like, sorry, I need to be behind a gate here in my gated community. Like, no, I don't want the riffraff coming in.

It's like, bro, you are riffraff. I'm going to Kanye this bitch now, mother, you know. You were riffraff yesterday. Today you're like, excuse me, do you live here, sir? Right. Get out of here with that. I love that, though. I mean, moving on up.

like immediate doorman. That's really funny. So here's what I would do. Figure out market rate rent and utilities in your area for current pricing. Don't go all historical data on me. Create a food budget based on your current level of consumption, or approximately that, and then multiply that out times the number of months that you lived with your parents. Then, when you have that figure, write them a nice note about what they've done for you, how they're the greatest parents in the world, how they never made you feel guilty, how they're parenting and values and everything set you up for success. And if you're, you know, the tech type, whatever, make a video, you can use your phone, whatever, it doesn't matter. The more from

the heart, the better. Write the note too, though, the note in the video. Then tell them you love your new job, your new apartment. And the first installment is on the way. And then cut them checks every month for the back rent utilities and food that you borrowed while you live with them. You don't have to pay them back in one lump sum. If you try to do that, it's going to be a financial burden or it might never happen and you don't want that. They will really be moved by this. They will think the world of you. They will be bragging so much to their friends about their amazing son that everyone

will get sick of hearing about it. All their friends with kids still at home will look upon you with reverence as the good for nothing kid who lived at home and who made good on his promise to succeed and pay his parents back. Birds will land on your shoulder as the clouds part while you walk up the driveway. Your parents might not even accept the money. And then again, they might. Either way, consider it the highest honor you could have achieved after all they have done for you.

It's not the money. It's that you realize you can never pay them back for what they've done for you, but you're still going to try. Congrats on all your success, by the way. I love hearing stuff like this. I tried this with my dad. My dad would have none of it. He was just like, no, it's my job. You're not giving me any money back.

I'm like, well, can I at least pay for your phone? He's like, okay. Yeah. So I got him a new phone. and then I'm like, can I just send you random stuff here and there? He's like, okay. Yeah. But he didn't want the check because the check, I don't know if the check like made

him feel weird about it, but I just, what I did was it's like, okay, here's the new thing. Here's an instant pot. Here's an air fryer. Here's all the stuff I bought off Amazon that I don't want. Yeah, exactly. So I just send him tons of stuff. And he's very appreciative.

But man, when I tried to send him a check, oh, man, he got. up in my grill. He did not want to have anything to do with that because he's a very proud Italian-American, just like I am. And he's just like, it was my job to make sure that you went out in the world to be a productive member of society. And that's all that matters. But the other stuff, the perks, the side stuff, he loves it. He's like, he's got it like an iPhone 10 and all this other crazy stuff. And he's just like, he loves that. But like, my dad just was just like, don't send me a check. So if they, if they reject the check, just send them lots of stuff.

You know what happened when I tried to send my mama check? She said, yeah, thank you. She cashed it. Yeah, she cashed it. Thank you. Yeah. Preach. She, dude, it didn't even take.

I looked at my bank statement. It took like 24 hours. I was like, did you just get the mail and go straight to your car? If you even go in the house, straight to the bank. She probably wanted to make sure it didn't bounce. Exactly. He's a podcaster. I'd fail any minute.

That's right. Cash this. Well, it now. Yeah, get it in now. She probably went straight to the bank and was like, oh, I'm not sending this thank you email.

I'll save it in drafts. I'm going to write this thank you email and then go to the bank. And then if all is well, you know, when it clears, I'll click send on this thing. Yeah, no, that she cashed that thing so fast. It was years ago. It was when I, you know, I needed some cash to move to New York. It was so expensive back then. Still is, obviously.

But I needed some dough for the apartment deposit. But man, she cashed that shit so fast. All right, what's next out of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I'm a senior at UNC Chapel Hill. Hey, go Tar Heels. I used to live in North Carolina, so, you know, dig the Tar Hills, but like the Wolfpack a little more, but hey, go Tar Hills.

And it's time for me to get a real job and get my career going. I'm an economics major, entrepreneurship, and Russian minor. I love business and marketing, but the one thing I love more are cars, specifically working on and driving them. My brother and I recently started up a marketing agency where we have one client so far, but don't have the fundamentals to get off the ground. How do you have a client if you don't have the fundamentals to get off the ground? But okay, fine, whatever.

That's a digression. I just think, who's your poor client who doesn't know that you can't do the business? Yeah, seriously. Obviously, you've gotten off the ground. You have a client. Well, yeah, so for now. So my brother suggested that I should get a job at a professional marketing agency. but I think that I should get a job where I could do something with cars.

I don't have experience or a degree working with cars other than working on them from home. Nevertheless, it's my absolute dream to become a race car driver one day. I've thought about working in a dealership but think that it's going to keep me in the sales side of the car business, which is where I don't want to be. What do you think I should do? Sincerely, the clueless dreamer. So I love the ambition here of knowing what you want to do and going in that direction. That said, we can't always get jobs just because we want them, and we definitely need to be qualified for them.

I kind of already touched on that. You might know a lot about cars, but you're not certified as a mechanic yet. Got it. Okay, so go do that. There are very inexpensive ways to do this, potentially at cost or better, in many communities. Trade schools are easy to get into. Jobs are plentiful. A lot of shops I know around here can't even hire enough people to work there.

So that's a certain first step. and then what I would do is join car clubs and go to rally school, which is one of the first things you need to do as a driver. After a while, you'll want to start working in the sport itself, not just in regular auto shops. If I were in your shoes, I'd find out who works on the high-end cars and ask them about their career path. What did they do to get where they are, what they recommend for you, and what you would need to do, know, or be certified in, right, to come and work for them. literally ask what qualifications you need to be allowed to wipe grease off parts at the track, you know, on weekends or whatever it is while you work your way up. As for becoming a driver, that's a professional sport.

I'm not sure about the path here, but what I do know is that you've got to be racing soon, getting involved with those teams, getting as close to the crown as you can. Driving might be the glorious part, and that you can probably do that without being a pro. The more likely career here will be on the team itself, doing something with the cars. A lot of people want to play football. Not everyone gets to be the quarterback. That said, if you want to be the quarterback, go for it. Just make sure you've got a plan to play on the offensive line

in case that turns out to be a better way to make a living and actually get into the sport that you want. I don't know how old you are or anything, so I can't really gauge your career path. The key to any career like this is to get an inside look at the path itself, and you get that by working in the industry and connecting with the people in it and making your way from the inside.

They don't hire the drivers from Craigslist, right? So best of luck, welcome to the show, and get certified in what you need and then get on the inside as fast as you can. Get in the building. This is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show.

To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And if you'd be so kind, please leave us a nice rating and review on iTunes or your podcast player of choice. It really helps us out and it builds the show family. If you want tips on how to do that, go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash subscribe. Now let's hear some more of your questions here on Feedback Friday.

All right, next up. Hi, J-Cube. I'm working as a social media manager at a small advertising agency and enjoy my job. Here's my problem. My hours were cut. My boss said they were cut because she lost some clients, which is understandable because she's an entrepreneur. I'm a little worried for my job, but not too much because this happened before when I first got hired and they went back up. Here's my problem. I need money now and I'm getting less. I don't really want to leave my job because this is my first real job and I've only been here for six months.

I want to build up experience and show that I can hold down a job for at least a year or so. I'm thinking of trying to freelance on the side, but I'm worried about the ethical implications. If I find clients for myself, would I then be competing with my boss? I mean, the agency does more than social media, but I'm still worried that there is a conflict of interest. I would love to hear your opinion on this as a former lawyer and business owner yourself, signed, conflicted, and cash strapped. So I see your dilemma here.

Do you have a non-compete with your place of work? Probably some kind of, there's got to be some, but are you full time there technically? If so, you probably can't work outside in the same industry and take outside work in that same industry. But you said your hours were cut, which leads me to believe that you're a contractor. So you still can't work on other clients' stuff during work hours or in the office,

but you should be free to do so otherwise. So there are a couple options here. One, ask your boss if she needs more clients and if you can help. She'll say yes, obviously. Then you negotiate an arrangement by which you get commission. And this commission should be ongoing, a percentage of the work that the client brings in, not a one-time finder's fee.

This way your boss gets work, you get more hours, and you get paid for the sales rule that you now find yourself in. You also probably have to negotiate that you work on those projects, by the way, so they don't just get staffed out to somebody else if she feels like it. Alternatively, read your employment agreement and or have a lawyer read it. Then you can see what you're allowed to do outside of work. If you're allowed to get outside clients or it's silent on that, and I think you probably are because you're a contractor most likely, then go for it.

Just do not steal clients from your boss and don't work on their stuff in the office, nor using resources paid for by your boss or your boss's company. Like if they're paying for Adobe Creative Cloud or whatever, don't use that while you're working on. Or the computer itself. Yeah, seriously. If you're in the office, you should never, ever, ever work on any side job. But if it's your stuff and you're at home, in your home office, you're probably on your own time.

In the end, there's no reason for you to suffer because your boss isn't managing to sell clients and can't retain clients. So you get to decide if you'd rather help your boss fix that problem or diversify your revenue streams. These both have pros and cons that you can evaluate to make your decision. For example, if you think your boss loses clients

because she's bad at serving clients, get your own clients if you think you can do better. If you think you'd rather not do any of the service, the management, but you really enjoy the stuff you're doing now, then see what you can do to bring your boss clients and let her do the heavy lifting, especially if you think, oh, she lost some people because of a, you know, whatever, freak thing. Either way, fill those gaps. If you think you'll eventually leave this company and go off on your own, there's no reason not to get a client or two on the side, as long as you're not breaking any rules in doing so. Just be aware that if

your boss finds out rule breaking or not, she may not be happy. Even if it's not prohibited by the written agreement you have in place with her already. So keep that in mind. But what I would do, honestly, get a side hustle, get some clients going as long as you're allowed to. Keep it under wraps. It's not your boss's business if you're a contractor. It's not her business. You know, you can try to help her if you feel bad. Like if one of their clients went out of business or stopped using you guys for some reason that seems freakish, then fine. Get a couple clients. Get on the boss's good side. Make sure you're staffed on those projects. get a little commission. Otherwise, you know, you don't have to be behind your boss on this.

A lot of times freelancers find out their boss is inept and they just happen to be older or have been in the game longer. Maybe you need to get your own clients. That's a, there's a better insurance policy there if you're controlling that interaction. As long as you don't hate doing it. If you hate doing it, let your boss do it. Just be aware there's tradeoffs. All right, next up. Hi, Jordan. I've had a lot of success over the past four years in my current role at a property development company. In that time, I had four promotions, and I'm currently a director in the company. My current boss has been there about the same length of time, but has held the same position over four years. Ever since I got my last promotion, I've noticed that he started to do things subtly to block my career

from progressing further, which would mean taking his job. I can't understand why, but this is frustrating. I know a lot of other people in the firm know the value that I add to the company and relatively how incompetent my boss is. I'm struggling to think of options for how I deal with his career blocking attitude for my boss. For example, not forwarding me important emails or passing on critical information, not reviewing work in the time required, actively trying to put other people in opportunities over me. Grateful for any advice you have. Cheers. Job blocked. This is natural consequence of being smart and ambitious. You're coming up against politics from a lower level. So give your boss a chance to not do this stuff before you take matters into your own hands.

Have a conversation in writing with the boss. Use specific examples of let's say not sharing info, not reviewing work on time, et cetera. Explain what this does and how it makes success for the company impossible. Not just you, but you and him as a a team for the company as a team got it so you're locked in this awkward thing with a boss who's blocking you call out the awkwardness because right now your boss is totally getting away with it totally getting away with it right be non-threatening non-confrontational and if this does not work then go to step two and I'll tell you that in a second but so make sure you do this in writing again don't just walk in and be like hey these all these things that happened write it down

in an email that it's and honestly I will say this you might not be allowed to do this, but do it anyway. BCC, BCC, not C, BCC, BCC a personal Gmail account. Because if you get shit canned, you want a copy of this email that says you told your boss, not, oh yeah, I wrote it. And it's in my work email that my boss has admin access to and now I can't find it, right? Yeah, we covered this on a previous episode. BCC yourself on every communication that you have with the upper echelon, for sure.

Yeah, good idea. That way you have a copy to give to your lawyer, not like you're trying to get it in discovery, right? So be non-threatening when you do the meeting, be non-confrontational, be non-confrontational in the email, but document everything. If this does not work, go to step two. That might be his boss, HR, whatever you decide, but you can then show, hey look, I've already tried to remedy this directly. It's not going anywhere. I got the email printed off. Here's a copy.

I'm going to send you a copy electronically, so you can't just shred this, and nothing's happened. You still want to play fair. Don't get carried away with frustration and ambition and just go for the jugular. It's really tempting to be like, I'm going to go to the ombudsman and get you fired. Like, don't become a political animal who gets carried away with your own ambition. It'll look really bad if you do that. Always err on the side of being very polite and professional. Do it all in writing.

Stay extremely cool. Mentally, prepare for your boss to be confrontational. Be prepared to hear something negative from the boss and don't blow a gasket. Like, realize when you send this, your response is, realize when you send this email, your boss is going to be like, well, you are a useless piece of crap. Like, that might not happen, but there's going to be some shade of that.

Totally. They're probably thinking, I dare you to say something. Do not react. In fact, you might even hear some truth in what they're saying as well, and you'll get clues about what's making the boss angry, do not go, you know what, I'm right and you're wrong, and here's why I'm going to screw you, like, forget about all that. That's only going to hurt you. So if they blow a gasket, great, that's good for you.

If they're triggered, great. If they try to trigger you, cool, you might get some kernel of truth and how to improve. Do not take the bait. Step three, if that stuff doesn't work, look for another job. You cannot fix a broken political culture at work on your own. But that's step three. Not like immediately quit. No.

And not immediately go to the boss's boss. No. Try to work it out with him. There's a good chance that your boss is just going to be like, look, I'm not crazy about it when you do these five things or these two things. And you're like, yeah, you know what? All right. And they're like, look, I like you. You know, let's do this.

You're competent. You're ambitious. I like you. You might repair this relationship and be like, oh, my God, I'm friends with him now. But he might also go, I hate you. And I want you to get fired. I just can't fire you myself. And then you're like, cool, I'm going to your boss because I'm not afraid of you, punk.

But don't start there. Do not start there. Trust me, I've done that. Don't start there. Don't start. Yeah, that's not where you want to begin the conversation. We'll be right back with more feedback Friday right after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show.

Your support of our advertisers is literally what keeps us on the air and keeps us being able to bring you great shows. And if you're listening to the show on the Overcast player, click that little star on the side. It really helps us out. Now, back to the show for the conclusion of your questions here on Feedback Friday. All right. Next up. Hey, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. My mother is in an MLM, which is a multi-level marketing scheme, and her life revolves around it.

It's hurting her relationship with my dad, me and my siblings. She keeps buying products she doesn't need or have us do it because she thinks. it's going to make her rich. She doesn't even pay attention to her own vet practice because she's trying to recruit for the MLM. My mom is also convinced the main product has anti-aging properties and is backed by peer-reviewed studies, all with small sample sizes, mostly done on mice by consultants of the company. She honestly believes the supplement prevents cancer, MS, and Alzheimer's. How can I convince her of the reality of MLMs and that she's putting time into something that will bear no fruit? Can I get her to become more measured in her involvement in the company?

Can I convince her that it isn't some miracle supplement? Hoping the question is applicable to any listener who has a friend or family member in an MLM. Thanks, mother losing money. So this stuff is always so sad for me. I hear lots and lots of stories about MLMs, the toxic practices they used to keep people hooked, losing money, floating on some emotional high. It is really despicable. I don't know about you. Have you lost friends about MLMs? Because I have. No, because I tell people in no uncertain terms I don't ever want to hear about this. And until you're out, I'm not interested. And when you need help with it, let me know. But like getting out of it, let me know. But otherwise I'm not.

I'm not in. I had a really good friend who I'd known for like 15 years. And she started, you know, pimping this MLM product on Instagram. And I'm just like, who turned you onto this? Because that person is not a friend of yours. And you need to like back off of this stuff. And she just cut me out of her life immediately. And she's just like, I'm just trying to make it in this world, man.

I'm doing the best I can. And we have never talked since. It's crazy. Like how deep it. goes. Yeah, of course, you know, her training, which they do is, oh, if somebody's not into it, they're naysayer, they're trying to keep you down. They're not trying to do it. It's not in your best interest. They're just trying to get you to be not successful because they're not successful. That's all the BS they feed you. Every time we try to do an episode or piece on this, we get angry emails from people who get

triggered. They insist their MLM is different, and I know people were warming up their email inbox fingers to tell me about how their envelope is different. And then they go silent whenever they're asked about their profit above what they've invested to make it happen. Not, oh, here's what I made last week. Cool. How much did you invest? Oh, crickets. Oh, well, I'm making six figure. Cool. How much did you invest the last eight, 10 years? Oh, okay, got it. I'm into this one. Let's go a bit down the rabbit hole here. The following text is courtesy of my friend Brett McKay at Art of Mailiness. And we'll link to the article in the show notes. Again, I want to do a full episode on this at some point and just debunk all this bullshit. So here's the definition

the Federal Trade Commission has given for MLMs. Multilevel marketing is one form of direct selling. It refers to a business model in which a company distributes products through a network of distributors who earn income from their own retail sales of the product and from retail sales made by the distributors direct and indirect recruits. Because they earn a commission from the sales their recruits make, each member in the MLM network has an incentive to continue recruiting additional sales representatives into their downlines. This is an okay definition. But to really understand what an MLM is, you have to see it in action, so to say.

So I'm going to walk you through some of the functioning of a hypothetical MLM company called Company A. Now, every MLM is different in how they work, but they all share the same basic format. So let's say Company A sells weight loss shakes. Instead of putting them on store shelves or selling them direct to consumers through an online store, they recruit salespeople called distributors to sell the shakes for them. To become a distributor, a person needs to buy a distributor starter pack, of course, from company A. It costs like $75,000, contains brochures about the product, what distributors can do to make money with the company,

and it also contains a few samples of the product that the potential distributor can give away in order to help sell the product. Jim is approached by a friend who's already a distributor for company A to become a distributor as well. Jim's friend tells him it's an amazing business opportunity and that he's only telling Jim about this because he's the kind of entrepreneurial guy who could succeed with it. The friend shares how other distributors have been able to make enough money selling shakes that they paid off the student debt. They bought a second car. They paid off their mortgage, whatever. He says very little... I got an above ground pool.

Above ground pool, right. He says very little about the product itself, except that it's fantastic and it practically sells itself. Jim fills out the application to become a distributor for Company A, buys the $70 starter kit, whatever. Jim can now buy company A's shakes at a 25% discount and sell them to friends and family at the full retail price and keep the profit. That's pretty cool, right?

But then Jim sees something in the starter brochure. Instead of just buying the amount of shakes he needs to fulfill the demand for them among his friends and family, which is, by the way, pride zero. Company A requires Jim to buy $100 worth of shakes each month to maintain his status as a distributor. The company then says you need to do this so you have enough inventory to sell to people

so you yourself can use the product as well. Jim gets signed up for an auto delivery system where his credit card is charged $100 a month. He sent product every month. He's kind of worried about the $100 recurring charge, but the shakes sell themselves, right? He'll be able to make his money back, definitely. So Jim starts pitching the shakes to his friends and family members and anybody who will freaking listen because his garage is slowly filling up with his stuff.

He gets a sale from his mom, and that's about it. Most people are just plain uninterested. Selling these shakes is a lot harder than he thought it would be. But he's just got to put the work in, right? Jim's friend who recruited him into the company starts telling Jim, well, the way you really start making money with company A is you recruit people beneath you to sell the shakes. when you sign someone up, he explains, you'll start getting a 10% commission on the product your recruit is required to buy from company A.

So 10 bucks a month. This stuff he needs to buy to become a distributor. So if you can get three people to sign up, that means you're earning 10% commission on all the product, those three guys are required to buy, plus whatever they purchase beyond that minimum. So now Jim's thinking to himself, hmm, this means this friend of mine's making 10% on the shakes

I'm required to buy from company A. That's interesting. And then, of course, the friend continues. It gets better. If those three recruits each recruit three people themselves, you're getting 5% on the product they buy from the company as well. You'll be a gold star-level distributor at this point, and you'll be able to buy product from the company at a 30% discount.

To maintain this status, your group of 12 recruits beneath you has to collectively buy $1,200 worth of the product each month from the company. And if those 12 recruits each retain three distributors, you're going to get 5% on the product they're required to buy. And at this point, you're a double gold star distributor. Those recruits and subrecruits are called your downline. The bigger your downline, the more passive income you can make. What an amazing opportunity.

So it's essentially more lucrative to get distributors than it is to sell the product itself, which is good news because nobody wants the product, right? Yeah. Arguably, the most defining feature of an MLM is that the main customers of the company's products are not unassociated folks outside the company, but they're the distributors within the company. This is why your mom is pushing this crap so hard. She has to maintain her status, but it costs her and those around her money, and it's hurting your relationship. There's a video we'll link in the show notes about how to spot a pyramid scheme. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean MLM. That's

worth watching. And you need to be able to rebut her rebuttals. For example, a lot of MLM fans will say the products are amazing. They're high quality, they're one of a kind. Not sold in stores, Jan, right? That's why you can only buy them from a distributor. If the products are as amazing as the parent companies claim they are, then they should do great sitting next to other products on physical shelves and online. If the products really have a competitive advantage because they're so great, they can cure cancer, the company would want to make them available to the widest possible marketplace,

aka everywhere. And they might say, oh, I join the MLM so I could get a discount on the product. It's like joining a buyer's club like Costco or Sam's. Okay, I can see this as being a legit argument for joining an MLM. If you like a certain brand and use it frequently enough, getting the 25% off or being part of that might just be worth it. But ask yourself, is it possible to get a similar quality product outside of that MLM for cheaper than the discount I get for being a part of the MLM?

The answer almost certainly is yes. The real customers in any MLM. like to say not almost. Certainly it is. Of course it is. The real customers in any MLM are the people inside the MLM. Done and done. What distributors recruiting people into the company won't tell you and what the parent

company does a great job of keeping out of the limelight is that most people who sign up for an MLM receive zero to a few hundred dollars in commission checks a year from the company. and by most, I mean literally 90 to 99% of all distributors in any MLM. This is based on disclosure statements. This is not a made-up stat. In other words, this data comes from the people who run the MLM itself. That's real bad results. That's horrible.

And of course, an MLM is going to likely respond. Well, those 90% they didn't try hard or work enough. If you put in the effort, you can succeed. Look, it's perfectly true. you might succeed. It is within the realm of possibility, but it is not probable. Even the MLM companies reluctantly admit in their own financial disclosures that it is almost impossible to do so. Why isn't it probable? Not because people are lazy. It's because of the way MLMs actually work. Remember, while not legally a pyramid scheme, MLMs effectively operate like one. To make money

on a pyramid scheme, you need to get in early. You've got to be at the top. If you are, yeah, you can make good money. But if you're a latecomer, you're at the bottom of the chain, and the vast majority of people will be, the chances of you making money is almost zero, because it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to recruit enough people beneath you to generate a good income. There's a chance. It's just a very, very slim one. All right, well, there's a chance. And the only way you get a chance is by joining. That's what they're going to say. Yeah, and there's also a chance you're going to win the 500. million dollar powerball.

But no financial advisor in their right effing mind would tell someone to buy a hundred dollars worth of lottery tickets every single month so that they have the opportunity to secure their financial future with a freaking jackpot. Look, there's so much more to this. But again, I want to do an entire hour on this with a consumer advocate and not just stand in my own soapbox here. There are entire books about this. One is called MLM Unmasked.

I'm going to link the entire text. of this book, available online for free in the show notes, also linking an article about how to approach people who've been sucked into this stuff. Here are some basic ground rules. Keep your expectations low. Don't aim to get your mom out of the MLM. I know you want her out. You want her out like now because they've been taken over by freaking zombies, but you need to

let that dream go. Just realize you're in this for the long haul. It's going to take more than one chat to help her see what the MLM is doing to them and your family, frankly. Three, do not act as if they are stupid and you are smarter. Do not do it. I know it's tempting. Don't do it. Trust me on this. Remember, your mom has been subjected to essentially mind games, and you've got to know your enemy here. Learn about MLMs. There's a ginormous list of resources online. We're going to link some in the show notes. Be kind to yourself. It can be really difficult dealing with a loved one in something like this, in an MLM. Watching them be

pulled in further and further, you got to be gentle with yourself, and realize your mom's not who she used to be in this particular facet of her life. She's been mindset trained to hell and back, so you need to tread carefully. Everything you say she's going to have a rebuttal. All you can do is sort of plant the seed. Do not criticize the MLM. If you've got to criticize, criticize a different MLM instead. Don't criticize the one that she's in because there's so much sunk cost. There's so much psychological commitment. And do not buy any more products. Do not join the team.

Look, one, you're supporting that MLM and their unethical business model by doing so. You don't want that. Two, you're going to be subjected to the same tactics as they were to draw you in. Just do not do it. Resist, stop doing it. If you have done it, don't do anymore.

And keep your contact at a distance. I know it sucks because it's your mom. So you've got to be careful here. But if it's a friend, if you're listening to this and your friend is, you got to protect yourself from the BS. so you've got to start pulling away because by protecting yourself,

you're the one they can reach out when they need support. They can't reach out to the people they sucked in. So they're isolating themselves. If you stay away, you're the one she can trust. Ten, talk about things you used to do with them,

shared memories. Remind them of life before the MLM. Remember when we used to go, da-da-da-da, you know, back before you were broke because you spent all your money on stupid shakes, that kind of stuff. Talk about their new life

from another angle. Instead of saying, wow, you're posting on social media like every day, what the hell? You could say something like, hey, what have you been doing with your kids lately? Have you talked to dad much about all this? You know, that kind of stuff. Be careful. You don't have to poke too hard, but plant the seed.

Help them see things from multiple perspectives here, your friend or your mom. You know, this can be difficult. It can be achieved. It can be quite effective. They've been trained to see things from just one perspective, the MLM perspective. They've lost the ability to see things critically. anymore. If you can get them to see their situation from a different perspective, they may be able to start making connections and think their way out of the situation. You can ask them how their old

selves might have perceived something like, oh, hey, mom, what would your old self have said if she knew you were waking up at 3 a.m. posting comments on social media trying to sell face cream. It can be weird. That's sort of a time thing. Or, hey, have you talked to dad about how all this is working, you know, how it's all going? Don't be judgmental. Just help explore. how their actions might be impacting others. Has anyone said anything to them, anyone outside the family, about how the MLM is, you know, negatively impacting them?

Have you had much negativity? Maybe explore negative comments they've had and where those might have stemmed from. Plant those seeds, leave her with something to think about. Non-threatening but relevant topics is the key here. And look, she may or your friend, if you're listening to this, may have been programmed to shut down and stop listening

when their MLM is being criticized. you might be able to discuss other relevant issues that they don't see as threatening their ideals. Typically, people will be able to see flaws in other MLMs. They may feel able to criticize and listen to criticism of other MLMs because theirs is not the one being targeted. They associate the company with them personally.

And you can try to present information about other MLMs to get their take on it, show them an income disclosure for another MLM, see what their thoughts are on it. They might agree that the MLM in question does indeed have a crappy pay structure, and they may be wondering what their own income disclosure for their own MLM looks like.

They can Google that. So plant that seed. Pursue it as far as you are able. We will link to some of this in the show notes. Like I said, I'm passionate about this. I want to do a whole hour with a real expert, but I'm sorry to hear it. It's just, it's a con.

It's a con, and there's kind of no if, sounds or butts about it. All right, life pro tip. This one's from our personal experience. Whenever you witness a car accident, make sure you stop and you leave your contact information with both parties. I kind of thought everyone knew this, but this happened to us recently. The car in front of us merged straight into a car to his left,

badly damaged the vehicle. We stopped to provide our information in case they needed it, like thinking, you know, you never know. We witnessed it. We were right there. The victim was in a little bit of a state of shock. Didn't even want to take our information. I was like, take my phone number, man.

And he's like, okay, you know, immigrant didn't really speak English. I was like, take my number, take my number. The insurance company contacts us a week later to get our version of events. Turns out the guilty guy who at the scene was all like, my bad, I didn't see you, sorry, it's totally my fault. He tried to blame everything on the victim. Oh, that sucks. It sucks. It sucks.

I get it, though. He was probably thinking, I'm going to get fired. He was driving a truck, actually, a commercial vehicle. So the insurance agent said, hey, we really appreciate that you took your time to. to leave the contact info, the victim has an eyewitness to help him. You know, it's really, it sucks, but even the insurance agent, who by the way, was the insurance agent for the person who was at fault, she was like, thank you for being honest because the guy has lied to us about this because he's probably afraid he's going to lose his

job. And I thought, you know, I get it. I get it. I wouldn't want to lose my job either. No. Absolutely not. And by the way, I have a side story about that. Yeah, go ahead.

My roommate got hit by a car a couple, like about two months ago. And it was just a guy who was a service guy at the local car dealership where I got my new car. You know, I actually just got my new car from this dealership. And he was looking the wrong way. Well, he was looking right while turning left and ran into my roommate and just plowder down. And he did the right thing when the cops came and actually, oh, no. up to it, but there were like 10 people that saw the accident happen because it was in a, you know, grocery store parking lot. And all these people came forward and said, here's my phone number.

Here's my phone number. Everybody came forward. The guy did the right thing. And fortunately, this was right before Christmas and we were really upset. We're just like, we don't want him to lose his job before Christmas because he screwed up. He did screw up. Almost killed my roommate, which was a bad thing. But he didn't. So he got to keep his job. He copped to it, but everybody else came forward in the parking lot and said, hey, I saw this. This is what happened. This is what happened. And I think that really was a big factor in the police report saying that, you know, she didn't do wrong.

He did wrong. And you just need to do that kind of thing because that's what we're here for. You got to stand up for the people that you see around you when something bad goes down. Yeah, I agree. You can't let people get away with this crap. It's horrible. It screws people so hard, too. It's just not worth it. Yeah, because even if, I mean, if this guy had come back and said it wasn't my fault and, you know, it was her fault, it would have been a whole battle. But he did do the right thing. But everybody else came forward and said that, no, this is the way it went down. So it was just one of those things where it's like so many people came to her defense. and protected her. And it was a great thing. And everybody needs to do that.

When you see something happen, write it down, talk to the people who were involved, talk to the cops, talk to everybody. Just say that I saw this. Please, all the time. Civic duty, bro. Seriously, because it really helps. It really does help. Recommendation of the week, Jason, I was going.

What do you got? Dude, I went back and watched your recommendation of the week, which is the Fire Festival story on N, on Netflix. Oh my God. I know. What an incredible story that was. I stayed up like way past my bedtime and I was just transfixed by the whole thing.

I was just like, how can this guy do this? How can this guy do this? Everybody knew that this was going to fail. Yeah. And it was just incredible. I haven't seen the Hulu version of the story because there's another, there's like, This story is so incredible that there are two competing, like, you know, video on demand services that are putting out documentaries on it. I watched the Netflix one that you recommended,

and I thought it was incredible. And this guy, he got six years in jail. I think that should have a zero after it. But, man, what a crazy story. So if you have Netflix, go check out the fire festival. Yeah. It's so interesting. Hulu. one as well. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Don't forget, you can email us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com to get your questions answered on the air. We'll keep you anonymous always. Quick shout out to Rojensky. Rojensky. I don't know. Quit his job, started his own business, sending us some pretty awesome shoes. Thanks for that. 27, quid a 9 to 5 and is now working on footwear company. Very cool. Very cool. Prouty,

man. Go back and check out the Caesar Milan and Todd Herman episodes. Those are really good. Caesar was awesome. Todd's got some great takeaways you can apply right away. If you haven't heard those yet, go back and do it. If you want to know how we managed to book all these great guests, manage all these great relationships, be consistent with outreach. Check out six-minute networking.

It replaces level one. It's free. It's over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Don't put it off at six minutes a day. Quit crying. You can make time for that, six minutes, literally. And you ignore this at your own peril. You really do.

I wish I had this stuff 20 years ago. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Jordan Harbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. And Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. That's where the video interviews are on YouTube. This show is produced in association with podcast one. Jen Harbinger is our co-producer.

Show notes for this episode are by Robert Fogarty. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. And share the show with those you love and those you don't. Lots more in the pipe. Very excited to bring it to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time.

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