The Jordan Harbinger Show - 174: A.J. Jacobs | Thanks a Thousand: A Gratitude Journey

Episode Date: March 19, 2019

A.J. Jacobs (@ajjacobs) is a journalist, lecturer, human guinea pig, and best-selling author; his latest book is Thanks a Thousand: A Gratitude Journey. What We Discuss with A.J. Jacobs: What's the difference between true gratitude and positive thinking? How acknowledging the role of luck in our lives allows us to have compassion for and empathize with others. The lifelong lessons that stick with A.J. long after the conclusion of his unique experiments. Why gratitude leads to happiness -- not the other way around. If possible, why you might consider thanking your parents on your birthday. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha-chings from every channel, right in one spot, and turn real-time reporting into big-time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify.

Start your free trial today. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. AJ Jacobs is a big weirdo, but that's really why I like him. He's spent a year living according to the Bible in the most literal way possible. He's gone to great lengths to run social experiments that would, and in fact do, make most of us cringe just thinking about them. He's got a real knack for putting himself in situations where he's able to examine current rules and think in a totally different way

and then break our default mode that we get from culture, social programs. etc., and replace it with something else entirely. His last experiment was to thank 1,000 people that made his morning cup of coffee possible, from the bean farmers in Colombia to the truckers who get the stuff to the states, to the barista who hands him the cup at the end of the journey. Thankfully, though, this isn't just another gratitude episode. Far from it. In fact, we'll separate our idea of gratitude and contrast it with positive thinking

and all that other associated BS. We'll learn to acknowledge the role of luck in our lives, which leads to compassion, hopefully, which then, of course, hopefully leads us to discover what really matters to us in this life, whether that's some feeling of interconnectedness or just a nice fresh cup of coffee. If you are at all curious

how Jason and I have developed this amazing network of people that come on the show, friends that have helped us bounce back from hard times, personal and professional relationships, well, you should check out six-minute networking. It's a free course. I know you'll do it later, right? go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. We're teaching you how to build and maintain these networks for free in six minutes per day. So go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash course and check that out. In the meantime, enjoy this episode with AJ Jacobs.

A few years back when we first met, you were doing some sort of experiment for another book where you were living biblically. Yes. For, was it a year? It was a year. That's a long time. Oh, my God. To not shave. No, I know.

And my wife would kiss me for seven months. It was not. It was a serious thing. It's funny because my first thought was your wife must be a very patient woman to have put up with that. She is a patient woman. But I got to like, yeah, the best part is when people email about how wonderful she is. Because I can forward that. And that buys me a little credit that I can.

She wouldn't kiss you because you had a beard? Yeah, she just didn't like the beard. She said it was, you know, I. think it is, I looked into it, I think it is the same texture as like the pubic hair. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, okay, now I really can't get that on my head. Although she had to be patient, because if you're doing the biblical living thing, you could

have traded her for like a goat or something. That is such a good idea. I tried to get extra wives because, you know, in the Old Testament, you can have 12, 15. But she put the kibosh on that. But the kibosh, yeah. Yeah, it was sad. Yeah. That is, but then maybe she did you a favor because maybe it's not all it's true.

cracked up to be. Oh, no. I mean, I think it is very stressful, like time management. I have a chapter in my, in my book about family, about polyamory, and I have no ethical problems with polyamory, but these people, they showed me their Google calendars, and it is like a mosaic. It's so complicated trying to figure out which of your lovers to be with at what time. It's just, and it sounds like no matter what you're going to end up with people that are unhappy, right? Because you're not going to get somebody who's like, it's not my Tuesday. You're going to get people who are like, no, I don't feel good. I want you to come over and then see you got to shuffle everything.

It's like, hey, hold all my calls. Exactly. I got a sick wife. But now what if you have two sick wives? It's very complicated. Yeah. I know. Yeah, one thing that I thought was really interesting is they talk about, they try to cultivate the opposite of jealousy.

Compersion? Yes. I'm so impressed. I don't know why I know that. I've never had that feeling in my life. I have never experienced it. I would love to. But, yeah, conversion, as you know, it's the joy you get from your partner's joy.

So if your partner is having great sex with some other guy, you feel compersion instead of jealousy. Yeah, no. And yeah, if my wife slept with some other guy, you'd want it to be terrible. The worst sex you ever had. Yeah. Oh, God, that was just, gosh, why did I ever even think about it? That's what I would want to hear if I had to pick one. But I do think it is a wonderful, because I do think Schadenfreude, the joy at other people's pain, is a terrible emotion.

And I have it and I hate it. I hate having it. And this is the opposite. So, yeah, if I were a better human being, I would experience compersion someday, someday. Well, maybe. I mean, do you have to have the complete opposite or can you just have the absence of both and be fine? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, maybe it doesn't have to, like my wife has sex with a, maybe she has a great omelet at a restaurant.

That's, I'm okay with that. Then I feel compersion for that. We're drawing the line at omelets. My point of the original sort of biblical reference here is that you're, you were in a situation where you're able to examine your current rules and then go, all right, I'm going to break out of this as completely as I can. I mean, you're still in New York City. So it's not like you're turning everything. everything off. It's not like, all right, nobody's a lot of do anything modern anymore, right? But you can break free of culture in some way, social programming in some way, and replace it with something else entirely, which is kind of like your thing with the whole the biblical thing. And then after that, you're like, okay, well, well, you know, before we get into the next thing that you did, which I think is also interesting, what are some rules that you found that we modern humans follow out of habit, but you no longer really feel connected to after having done the biblical

thing? Oh, that's a great idea. Well, I think there are a lot of ways to answer that. I mean, it really did make me realize that in biblical times, they didn't have this idea of an individual. It was all about the community, like respect your elders. Like, you have to stand when an old person comes into the room. So I would do that.

And I went to Florida once for Sarasota and a restaurant. I was just like up and down the whole night. But it was lovely because I think we, that's another example. We don't value the elderly in our culture as much. Kind of the opposite. Yeah, it's a youth, it's a youth-oriented culture. And now that I'm getting old, I'm like, that. There's something to that.

Yeah, those old people are so wise. But it made you realize that and it made me realize they were all about, as I say, the community, the responsibility. to the community. And we are all about the rights, individual rights. I have the right to everything. And I think there's a balance. And I think we've gone too far to the individual side. I think I'm all for individual rights, but also what is your responsibility to the community? So that was kind of a... Yeah, that is interesting. Because I'll tell you, I don't think about my responsibility to the community that much. I think about my responsibility to the listeners all the time during the show during the preparation for the show.

Well, that's a community. That's a community. That's true, I suppose. But then there's another part of me that's like, why is this person walking so slow move? But that might be New York kind of thing. Yeah. Can't be a slow walker here. I am a fan of fast walking as well. And also, you know, I'm a fan of fast listening. I listen to your podcast on double speed.

All right. You're actually quite a fast talk. I am. I was going to say, so that's really three X. Yeah, you're like a three X. But I could still catch most of what you say. I might have missed some pearls of wisdom, but mostly I guess. catch you. That's it. It's worth it to speed things up. Oh, yeah. Listening at 1X is painful for most

people, I think, now, who listen to a lot of audiobooks, podcasts. Have you ever tried to listen to an audiobook at 1X? And you're like, what is there? What's your problem? Why are you going so slow? Oh, I know. And so, and particularly like certain stations, like NPR, like, and that's like half speed. And the weird thing is when you talk to someone who you've listened to at double speed and in person. I mean, you're fast enough that I don't think that there's some developmental challenges. Yeah. But some people, it's like, oh, my God, what's going on?

Yeah, you're like, look, Ira. Can we get this move in here? And I don't know if that's good or bad. Maybe patience is a lost virtue. Yeah, probably, but I don't miss it. I'll tell you. If I lost it, I don't miss it. Conversely, what are some habits or maybe rules you've added as a result of,

especially the year of living biblically? that made positive shifts for you in your life. Like, yes, maybe value old people a little bit more. Is there anything where you want? You know, I'm going to shave off this beard so that I can kiss my wife, but I'm not going to get rid of stoning adulter. Oh, yeah, for sure. I kept dozens. I did stop stoning adulterers.

As you know, I stoned them, but I use very small stones like pebbles, so I didn't get arrested. But, you know, there were tons, and I'm sure we'll talk about gratitude, but that was big in the Bible. there were the Sabbath, which is this idea. It's almost like a digital detox from 2,000 years ago. This idea, you know, starting Friday at sundown, or depending on your religion, Sunday, you know, just get off all devices.

They don't say that in the Bible, but they say, stop working, you know, devoted to what's around you, look around, devoted to your friends, to your family, to having meals, having wine. the Bible overall is pro-alcohol. It says sometimes it's banned, but most of the time it's a gift from God. So that was good. But yeah, I thought that was an amazing. So you picked up a drinking habit.

Got it. That's the main takeaway. Drink a lot. But yeah, I thought this idea of one day a week carving it out just to really focus this. And as I say, it's like a digital detox. It's like separating and saying, you know, because we get so caught up. Yeah. So on the on your Sabbath, did you do the Jewish Sabbath like Friday night to Saturday night or something?

Or did you pick something? I did. I went with that. And I didn't do, you know, the traditional Jewish Sabbath, which is like, you know, you can't turn on and off lights. That is such a, that is a whole thing. I was, we were walking by a store the other day here in Manhattan, no surprise. And it was like, this, the Sabbath switch. And you turn it on Sabbath mode and it does some sort of like electricity saving, but light turn on and off in the kosher way.

I think it was called the kosher switch. The kosher switch. And then there are kosher elevators that stop on every floor so you don't have to press the button. Oh, gosh. But that's not actually in the Bible. They don't talk about it. They just say don't work. So I would not work.

And sometimes I would try to use it to my advantage. Well, you know, my wife would say take out the garbage. Sorry. Can not do. That's the Sabbath. But most of the time it was a positive. where it was a time to reflect and just, you know, stop, stop the madness. So that was good.

You know, there were, there were, I talk about in the book, there are so many insane rules because it's an old tribal book written by some, you know, people who had some issues. But on the other hand, it does have some wonderful wisdom. And the Sabbath is one. Gratitude, not gossiping as much. That has, I mean, I still got that. I broke that one the other day, and probably yesterday, and maybe every day a little bit. Probably before we were.

Possibly. Yeah. But it is. I tried it, and I still try to do it. You know, I still gossip, but I would say a gossip 40% less. So that's something. Not bad. But it is, it's actually quite freeing because you kind of feel dirty.

It's like having junk food. You feel it's like good going down, but then you feel dirty afterwards. So there is something I would recommend people try for a week. Just try not to trash talk anyone and see how it goes. And I think you'll notice this remarkable mental shift. Yeah, that's interesting. I need to take some of that medicine. I wonder when you're getting rid of all these modern rules in favor of the old,

there must be a lot of when you're going through the old here going, okay, why can't I wear mixed fabrics? Like, where's the origin of this and this is just kind of dumb? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were some, as you say, you cannot wear clothes made of mixed fibers. And, you know, I thought that seemed like micromanaging. God was micromanaging.

And it was like just like, but, but the arguments from the religious people is that actually following those is even more important because it shows your commitment, almost your willpower. Like, you can do something that makes no sense whatsoever. Where does that one come from? Do you even know? That, I just can't. Well, there are a bunch of things.

But no one knows for sure. I mean, one is that, you know, linen and wool. Linen, I guess wool is from the shepherds and linen is from the farmers and the farmers and the shepherds had a feud. Who knows? It's like one of those, the earliest form of regulation. Like, hey, you can't wear mixed fabrics. But my shirts are always cotton.

Well, guess you have to only buy cotton. Exactly. And then the farmers are like, you bastards. Yeah, that's interesting. Huh. Huh. Okay. Well, I guess we'll never know. We'll never know. Literally will never know. So one of the shifts you had was gratitude, I know, and you mentioned that earlier, which kind of led you going down the whole rabbit hole of proving that all humans were essentially or are actually related. Oh, yes. That was my previous book. Can we talk about that for a second? Of course. I'm kind of taking people through your journey in case they haven't heard that episode. Because I think that that's something that people go, yeah, yeah, yeah, all humans that were all from Africa, et cetera.

But then we really don't treat each other like that at all. Oh, no. And that one started because I got this email out of the blue from this guy who said, you don't know me, but I'm your eighth cousin. And I, of course, thought, okay, he's going to ask me to wire $10,000 to Nigeria. Try herbal life. Yeah. It's a family business.

But he didn't. It turns out he was legitimate. And he is one of this group of people, thousands of people, scientists and researchers. who are trying to do something unprecedented, which is to build the biggest family tree in history. Wow. And it's not a tree. It's a forest because we're talking not thousands, millions of people.

Right now it's about 150 million people all connected on the same tree from over 100 countries, every ethnicity you could think of. And I love, I mean, one part of me was like, do I really want 150? million cousins. You know, I have some members of my family now that I'd be happy to cut out. Sure. Yeah, there are actual first cousins that I'm like, eh, I'm good. Exactly. But another part of me was like, you know, this is astounding. This is what a concept, because we've been taught this cliche from when we were kids that we're all one big family. Right. But now you can see it concretely through DNA, through these massive online Wikipedia-like family

trees where thousands of people are working together. And you can actually see the connections. It's like six degrees of Kevin Bacon. So, for instance, Barack Obama, this is true, is my fifth-grade aunt's, husband's, brother's wife's, seventh-great nephew. So we're very close, if you can see. Have you ever tried to, like, communicate that to him somehow? I think I did send a note, you know, inviting him to Thanksgiving and I haven't heard, but I will say this, that sometimes it works. It's like a, a, social network. It's like the new social network. Because for this book, I wanted to interview George H. W. Bush, because I figured he was the patriarch of this historic family. So I called his

chief of staff and said, I'd like to interview President Bush. She says, he's not doing any interviews. And I said, totally understand. Just so he knows, and you know, we are cousins. And I told her how. You're like 12 cousins three times from real. And remarkably, she said, well, in that case, let me see what I can do. So just as a very practical tool for entrepreneurs or whoever's out there, you might want to go on these websites that have these family trees. And it's like LinkedIn, you know, you can approach people and say your cousin. Half of them are going to say, never contact me again. Right. Like, oh, this is too creepy. I almost wonder, did she read the whole thing? Did she just stop?

it. Well, we're cousins. Let me tell you how. She's like, I don't, that's fine. Let me do it. And then she's, right? Because if she'd read, I'm your 16th, third cousin twice removed, she would have been like, doesn't that include pretty much most of the United States or whatever? Well, it was funny. When I interviewed him, I told him who he was related to distantly. And he was getting into it. Like, he was related to Clinton. And he weirdly, he loves George Clooney, even though Clooney is like a flaming liberal.

So I told him how he was distantly related to Clune. He's got a crush. He had, rest in peace. He had a crush on Terry Hatcher. Yeah. Do you remember her? No, but we're about to find out. Because I'm sure that I know who that is.

She was on Desperate Housewives. So I got to tell him how he was related to her. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, A.J. Jacobs. We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to jordanharbinger.com slash

subscribe. And now back to our show with AJ Jacobs. When you're at that level of power, it seems like if you have a crush on someone, you can just be like, hey, I want to like have coffee and get this out of my system. And they're like, oh my God, the president wants to, or, you know, something. Yeah, sure. I mean, it seems that JFK used to pull back. Yeah, he pulled a couple extra strings that maybe most of us only wouldn't, well, we won't go down that path.

This leads us to the whole coffee thing, though. Right. Weird sort of chasing zebras down rabbit holes is kind of your thing. I like that. Chasing zebras down rabbit holes. Well, yeah, part of that book was all about, part of the relatives book was all about connection and that we are, in fact, connected. And the hope was, which is a little idealistic, that we would treat each other with a little more kindness.

And I do believe it happened. Like, I call it the Judge Judy effect. Because, you know, Judge Judy, I always found her to be abrasive, obnoxious, like one of the least pleasant people on earth. But then I found out she's my sixth cousin. And I was like, you know what? She's not so bad. She's just Judge Judy.

And it's a little irrational, I know, but this idea of connection is very strong. So the connection theme was a big motivator. of my next book, which was about, as you mentioned, my cup of coffee, and what I tried to do was thank a thousand people who had even the smallest role in making my cup of coffee possible. And a thousand years ago, oh, that's not a lot. It's a lot. Oh, my God. It was a lot.

A hundred people would be a tedious. No, it was way more than I anticipated. Ten times that many. And, you know, I went wide. So I thanked the obvious people, like the farmer of the coffee. beans and the barista. But I also, you know, I would go out and meet the truck driver who drove the coffee beans there. I remember I called the woman who did pest control for the warehouse where my coffee beans are stored. And I said, I called her up and I said, I know this is a little strange,

but I just want to thank you for keeping the insects out of my coffee. And she said, yeah, that is strange, but thank you. You know, I don't get a lot of appreciation. And I was, one of the themes of the book that we take hundreds of people for granted. Everything we do requires hundreds, thousands of interconnected people and that we take for granted. And just making this mental switch, just from a selfish point of view, is very good because it really does help you appreciate the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of focusing on the three or four that go wrong. So there was really a selfish motivation for this book because I am I talk about, you know, we all have our Larry David side and our Mr. Rogers side.

And I was born with a very strong Larry David side, the grumpy pessimist. And this, which is fine, you know, I love watching Larry David, but it's not fun to be in that mind. Yeah, watching it is different. Watching it, you go, look, oh, this guy's so grumpy. Like, he's a bit negative side and everything. You don't necessarily want to be that. Exactly. It's funny because we go, better you than me.

Look at this guy complaining about every little thing. Yeah. But living at, being in that mindset, which I find myself a lot, is not a great way to live. So this was an attempt to bulk up that Mr. Rogerside get him ripped. And because it is so linked to happiness, there's so much evidence. There's a great quote that happiness does not lead to gratitude. Gratitude leads to happiness. So having that mindset really will make you happier.

That is, that's important. And I want to dial in on that a little, because the whole gratitude thing is really trendy these days. And it's so trendy that it's a little dangerous because people like me might overlook it. I'm like the opposite of the wisdom of crowds type of person. I think, and I realize that's a bad thing. I think I'm more like, I'm like a wisdom hipster where like when everybody's going, hey man, you should do this.

Gratitude. I'm like, oh, well, in that case, I'm not going to do that. Right. I love it. And then my producer and I are like, yeah, we're resisting that because it's BS trending garbage. But you can really throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah.

You know. I mean, yeah, that's my, as I say, I think I'm naturally cynical and Larry David like, but forcing yourself to be grateful, even if you're pretend for a while, then actually it sinks in. So you might want to try. You know, I know you, all of my projects have actually shown to me how powerful this idea of acting as if. This fake it till you feel it idea. So I had to fake it for a long time.

You know, I would wake up in a grumpy mood. And but I'd be like, I have to spend an hour calling or visiting people and thanking them. And I'm not in the mood to do that right now. So it was like acting. It was like method acting. And I would force myself to do it. But I'll tell you by the end of that hour, your mind, you know, the cognitive dissonance is too much. Your mind will switch over to gratefulness.

And I've seen this hundreds of times in these life experiments I do. I did one where I had to try to be the best husband ever because all these people wrote in and said, there you go. Oh, that's dangerous. You don't want, it's scary, you know. People told you not to do it? No, they told me I should because I should put my wife through someone. much misery with my beard and such.

With the beard, among other things. I'm sure if she had to pick, the beard wouldn't even make the top ten. Yeah, I'd say it's top ten. But yeah, there was someone not touching her while she menstruated. That was annoying to her. I'm sure. Oh, like, hey, you can't sit next to me. Oh, yeah. No. I mean, if you take the Bible literally,

then any seat where a menstruating woman has sat is impure. And my wife found that. Oh, fuck with that. Well, my wife found it offensive, so she sat in every seat in our apartment, and I had to stand for most of the year. Yeah, so the idea was these people wrote, you should try to be the best husband you could be. And so it was a month of Kate Hudson movies and foot massages, things like that. It was not always pleasant.

But one interesting thing I noticed was, as part of this, every day I would force myself, even if I was annoyed at my wife, I would force myself to buy her a little. gift, like a little scented candle. And I would bring it to her. And just by that act, I sort of convinced my brain, oh, I'm bringing a gift to my wife every day. I must really love her. And it catches up. So I do believe this idea, there's a great quote. I wish I'd come up with it myself, but it says, it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. So act as it. Act as if you're confident.

That's a big one for me because I don't think I'm naturally confident, but I pretend I am. So far so good, though. You're killing it with the acting today, then. You have multiple water bottles, huh? I like to bring my own beverages. I do.

Is it water or is it? Coffee and water. Gotcha. So, yeah, you got to get both. And since we're talking about coffee, I figured I should have. Yeah, there you go. Okay, so your default state was kind of like grumpy and impatience, which by the way, amen to that, speaking of the Bible.

I get it because I, there are many days where I'll wake up and I'll go, got to do the gratitude thing because it's going to be one of those days. Oh, yeah. You know, I know. I mean, it is, it is hard. I was just trying last night because I was having trouble falling asleep, so I use this hack where I try to, instead of counting sheep, I'll count things that I'm grateful for. and I do it alphabetically, like, A, you know, the apple pancakes my kids made last weekend. B is Barry. You ever see the HBO show Barry?

I haven't. I know what it is, but I haven't said. Henry Winkler. So I was like, I'm thankful for Barry. But it's hard, you know, I had to force myself. So, yes, forcing yourself to be grateful. And the origin of this, this idea was because I had read all these studies like you had. about gratitude and all the health benefits.

And as you know, it's a little annoying. But it's like, evidence is evidence. I'm going to try to be more grateful. So I started this ritual before meals where I would say a prayer of Thanksgiving. But I'm not really religious. So instead of thanking God, I would try to thank some of the people

who made my food possible. Like, you know, the farmer who grew the tomatoes, was the cashier who, who rang him up. And my son, who was 10 at the time, wisely pointed out that this was totally lame because those people can't hear me, you know? Oh, right. So you're like lazily doing half the equation. Exactly.

It's half the equation. So he said, if you really cared, you would go thank him in person. And that was like, you know, it's like, that is a nice, that's a good book idea. So he earned his supper that night. And that's what set me off on this journey for like, you know, not quite a year, but several months going around the world thanking people. So gratitude leads to happiness and not the other way around. And that's kind of the key.

You must have had a spreadsheet of people that you'd think so that you'd know, right? Or did you just keep tally on the wall? I don't know. I had a spreadsheet. And I mean, the thing is, in one sense, thanking a thousand people is, in some. But on the other hand, I could have spent 50 years doing this because you realize I could have gone to a million. I mean, you've got, think about the guy who drove the truck. You know, he was, you've got to thank the people who paved the road.

Right. And the people who painted the yellow lines on the road so the truck didn't veer into oncoming traffic. Somebody designed that truck. Someone designed that truck. Well, a lot of people designed and tested and painted that truck. And the tires. And then the guy who made the paint for, you. to the guy who made the chemicals for the paint.

So it was an amazing lesson in, you know, how much goes in. And it was actually very relevant to my own life because I'm an author. So this book says, by A.J. Jacobs, which is a total lie. Right. Because it is my book, yes. But then there were the designers, the editors, the people who designed the font, the people who cut down the trees for the paper. There are still paper books.

I was going to say the five, you know, copies of paper that you probably all are still in your house. Yeah. Exactly. And that's in everything. So it does make you, I think that it just made me a little bit less self-involved. Sure. And which, ironically, makes you happier. The more, you know, I think when in my 20s, I was only focused on my own happiness.

And weirdly, that made me miserable. And as soon as I forced myself to try to think of other people, it had the paradoxical, but wonderful effect of making me happier. That is so interesting. And I suppose it's because as humans were wired biologically to, it's like a survival thing, right? I want to focus on the one in a hundred things that is negative or going wrong because the other 99 things are going right, so they don't really require my attention right now. Totally.

I really do. I agree with you. I mean, evolutionary psychologists will tell you, you want to focus on the lion because that, you know, or the one mushroom in a thousand that is poisonous. Sure. Because, so we are wired for the negative bias. That's what it's called, the negative bias, which might have helped us on the savannah, but it is really not a great way to go through life. Right. Sure.

So, so, yeah, taking, even if it's taking a couple of minutes every day to focus on, what went right. And I try to, like, if I'm in a line at a drugstore that moves quickly, I will make a point to myself. I'll say it out loud. It's sound like a crazy person. You know, I'm on this fast line. Remember this. Because I know that when I'm on a slow line, next time, I'll be like, this always happens to me. I'm the worst luck. It's all, oh, I am, oh, just my luck. But it's not. It's random. And sometimes you get the fast, sometimes you get the slow. So be aware of that. Right, so highlight the times when you get something that works instead of just having your brain auto highlight the times when it's not.

Exactly. And like whenever I go to airports for years, I was like, I always get the gate that's like four and a half miles away. Oh, yeah, sure. But I started to really pay attention. I didn't make a spreadsheet, but I was like, let's see if this hypothesis is true. It's not. Sometimes I would walk through security and I'm right at my gate. but those times you forget because they're so easy.

And the other ones stick in your mind. I have to do some mental gymnastics by whenever something is auto-highlighted is negative and I usually don't catch it in time. I try to think of like three branched-off positive. So it's like, oh, this gate is so far away. Great, I get to get my steps in. I don't have to worry about that. Ooh, I like that.

Burn some calories because that will let me eat like an egg McMuffins later because I'm getting, you know, burning a 500 extra calories walking here with all my stuff. Right. That's a great strategy. That kind of stuff has to happen. And you go AJ Jacobs with it, right? You're like, oh my God, I left my passport at home, and now I'm not going to make my vacation flight on time,

and it's going to cost me $1,000. And then you have to think, crap, what three positives are going to come out of this crap sandwich? Oh, I love that strategy. I mean, I often think of some, you know, the Schadenfreude, your joy at someone else's pain, Sometimes when something is just going really shitty, I'll try to adopt a self-shadenfreude, which is the joy at how horrible things are going because I realize, and it helps that I'm a writer.

But I think in any one, you can, then that's going to be a great story. Like when things just go to hell. Exactly. It's, you know. Like, this is going to be a great post about how dumb I am and how this was all avoidable. Right. And that will humanize me in some way. to my Instagram or podcast audience,

which will then make me more relatable because I do do dumb stuff all the time. And it will make other people feel better about it listening and following me, which will improve my business in some sort of intangible way. I love it. Exactly. So it was worth losing two grand in a day of my vacation or whatever it is, right?

And when I was interviewing, I don't do it as much, but I interviewed celebrities for magazines. And one of the keys I find, and I think you're good at this. is to, you know, you tell a humiliating story and show your vulnerability, and they are more likely to tell an embarrassing story about them. I mean, in magazines, it's a little better because you can not print your embarrassing

story. Ah, that's cheating. You're like, hey, let me tell you all the stuff to get you to open, and then they're like, well, one all around that page. You're just like, snip, snip, snip. Exactly. Here's me getting George Clooney's, you know, bathroom story. I did, I did interview George Clooney once.

which was actually great. In person or over the phone? It was in person. That's great. One thing he told me that I still remember, one piece of advice, was he talked about sort of this delusional optimism has served him well. So when he played high school or college baseball, and he said when he would go up to the plate,

he wouldn't just think of, am I going to hit a home run? He would say, I'm going to hit a home run. run and it's going to be the left field wall. Like he would tell himself which wall, you know, left or center or right. And of course he struck out most of the time. But just that extra optimism increased the number of times that he did get a hit. And I've always found that a really interesting strategy, this delusional optimism. I mean, you don't want to overuse it because, you know, you could be like, oh, I'd be a great president, even though I have absolutely know. Hypothetically, right? Hypothetically. Yeah. Experience. But in general, I think, especially for

entrepreneurs, you need this. You need it. You do need it. It's funny. Somebody asked me like 10 years ago on a TV interview for some New York news station when I still lived here. What's the key to being a successful entrepreneur is if I had a clue, right? And my answer was delusional optimism or delusional confidence, I think is what I said, because it's tough because now you see other people, especially young people having delusional confidence and you go, oh, you're not doing yourself any favors here. You've got to actually do the work. But as long as you're doing the work, you can go, yeah, this is going to be awesome. Yeah. This is going to be huge. Otherwise, you'll just curl up into a fetal position. You do. Yeah, I had business partners back in the day where we would get a media

opportunity and they'd be like, it's probably not even going to work out. And I'm like, look, I got to be away from you because I need permission to get myself excited. Otherwise, what am I waking up for every day? If everything's probably not. not going to work out. That's not a good way for me to wake up. I need to be like, we're going to get in the Washington Post. And then when it doesn't happen, I'm like, eh, well, that didn't happen. We're going to be in the New York Times. It's fine for me, and this is probably different for everyone. I'm okay being let down here and there. It's just, it's part of the game. Right. I can't never get excited because I might get let down, though. That's just like, why bother? I love that. That's a great

point. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, AJ Jacobs. We'll be right back after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us on the air. And to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And don't forget the worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast.

And if you're listening to the show in the Overcast player on iOS, please click that little star next to the episode. It really helps us out. Now for the conclusion of our show with A.J. Jacobs. I do think in terms of like if I were building an organization, I would want half the team to be delusionally optimistic. But I do want like the bean counters, the rational people to counterbalance it. So you get a little of both. Like you guys can get as excited as you want on a $10,000 buck.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Spend it like like if there's no tomorrow except for there is because we save most of the money. Yeah. That's my wife. I'm like, yeah, we're going to kill it. And she's like, just in case we don't know, here's a bunch of backup funding and contingency.

It is a good balance. That is a good balance. Yeah. So I get to be like, this is going to be great. And she's like, yeah, probably, maybe, possibly. If not, we're good. I wonder what percentage of our day we spend in the frustrated or negative mode. Is there any science to this?

Have you found anything where it's like, hey, half the population wakes up and we spend 40% of our day worrying. That's a great. I have not seen any research. anecdotally, for my own, I think that I was, for me, I'm still struggling, but I would say over half the time I was in this state of general annoyance, and it's not a good way to go through life. So I often think one of the most important skills I try to teach my kids is metacognition, which is, you know, being aware of your thoughts. So it's sort of standing outside and looking at your thought stream and saying,

oh, that's not a good way to use your time. And I'll actually, this is a weird strategy, but it works for me. Maybe it'll work from some of you listeners. I'm a big self-talker. I talk out loud to myself a lot. Out loud. Yeah.

That's fine. You live in Manhattan. You blend me in. Well, yeah, you've got on the one hand, the crazies and on the other, the Bluetooth, so it's sort of. Right. You look more Bluetooth than crazy.

Well, that's nice of you to say. I dressed up for you. But I find it helpful because it makes you more aware of your thoughts. And when you're going into a dark place, which I often do, you know, and repeating this, ruminating on these negative thoughts, you can notice more easily when you're saying it out loud and be like, you know, that is not a good one. That's not a good use of my time. So I like, I don't trust my brain. I think my brain is it's so, uh, uh, a satisfactory. to these cognitive biases and the negative bias that I've got to keep it.

I've got to babysit it all the time. So that is what I like to do. And I find that talking to myself even, you know, maybe you don't do it out loud. But just every couple of minutes taking a pause and like, is this the best use of my, you know, with my brain acting up, do I need to rene it back in? That's quite interesting. I can imagine, is there any element of social pressure where you go, oh, I'm having a thought that I don't want to say out loud because it's really bad

and people are going to look at me and go, what the hell are you talking about? Well, if you're talking to yourself, you can just mutter. So you don't have to actually... Okay. I thought you were just like, I'm narrating everything that's in my head. Oh, no, no. This is when I'm walking down the street, and I would say my thoughts out loud. And I actually find it beneficial in a positive way

because you know, you're aware when you hear a good idea, then you're more likely to remember it. Because I do think one of the, I think one of the secrets to creativity is just quantity. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Have you seen the study? I can't remember what it's called. I call it in my head the pottery study where they had three groups.

I want to say of students making different pieces of pottery. One group was instructed to make the best pot. They were all instructed to make the best pots that they could. And one group was instructed to do it by taking a whole month and making one pot and just making it perfect. And the other group was the control. And then another group was make as many pots as you can and then just pick the best one. And the groups, they repeated this in a scientific, whatever, controlled way. And the group that just made 100, 300 pots, they had by far objectively the best results because they just made.

so many and the mistakes they made, even when they weren't trying to learn from their past mistakes, it's just like, you can't not make good pottery. You've made 300 freaking pots. I love that study. I hadn't heard of it. Check it out. I can't remember exactly what the circumstances were, but the results were the quantity that you get results in the quality that you want. You can't just, and this sort of, of course, now people are extrapolating this out to anything creative. But it makes sense, right? If you write something every day, most of it might be crap, but eventually what you're creating is going to be decent because you've just made so much crap. It's a numbers game. And I once did an article on sort of creativity hacks. And I talked to all

these professors and one of them said just that. He said, even the greats like Picasso, if you look at his whole, he's got a bunch of, you know, a lot of his stuff sucks. Yeah. But, you know, a lot of it's wonderful. The beauty of abstract art is you, most of us can't tell what stuff sucks and which stuff is great. It all looks great. And then there's a couple critics who are like, what? That's the good one. Exactly.

Yeah, I can't tell. The one with the nose on top of the eye is the good one. When I worked at Esquire, I once did a quiz. It was supposed to be the hardest quiz ever. And one of the questions was we had an abstract work of genius by an abstract painter. and then we had, you know, a painting by a monkey and a painting by an elephant and a painting by a four-year-old. And I found it very challenging, but... I mean, that's so impossible to judge.

Right. I find the painting by the elephant probably to be the most impressive because monkeys are close enough to humans. A four-year-old is a human. One's an artist and the other one is a freaking elephant with a paint brush in its nose. It might have been like just rolled around in paint, but... Fair enough. But fair enough. It was still, but yeah, I agree.

The general point is, you know, you've got to go through hundreds of ideas to find the gems. And to me, one of the challenges, you know, which are the gems, which are the good ones? And that is, I have a couple of strategies that I use. One is just this, is it something that I think about, like in two weeks or a month, I'll think back. to it and remember it and say, you know what, that's a pretty good idea. So that's a little hint. So you use your memory as a filter for good and bad ideas? I use a memory. And I also use people. You know, I used to be extremely paranoid about telling people my ideas and the delusion that they might steal them. Right. Like, oh, I'm going to live biblically for a year now.

Exactly. And I suppose that occasionally that that might happen. But I think the benefits of telling people, what you're working on creatively, far outweighs the costs. Because you could see it in their face, like, if they're interested. What a great idea or like, and then what are you going to do? Exactly. It's really, it's the facial expression. So, yeah, I find that very helpful. And I also, I mean, it was, I've noticed that a lot of creative ideas come about because you start, you, you say it out loud to people and they sort of riff on it. Like I have a friend, Adam Monsbach, who did a Facebook post

like, I don't know, eight years ago. It was just a joke. He's like, oh, my kids are such a pain in the ass. I'm going to write a book called Go the Fuck to Sleep. Oh, yeah. That's a huge hit. Yeah, but he was just joking. And then all of his friends, I wish I were one of them who had written this. It was like,

that's a great idea. You should actually do that. He's like, well, maybe I should. And he did it. So sometimes you know, just throw out there. And if people react, you're like, well, maybe I'm on to some. Well, link to that in the show, it's because there's a version, I think, on YouTube where Samuel L. Jackson is doing the voiceover,

and he's like, go the fuck. Right? And it's like a nursery or a lullaby, but it's probably not something you really get your kids. But it's hilarious because every parent, and I'm not even a parent yet, every parent goes, oh, yeah, I need this. I just need to buy this for myself.

Oh, yeah. It's a good sanity keeper. I once had a phone call with Samuel L. Jackson. I had written an article for Esquire about my sons and how, like, they, you know, just be marveling at the testosterone that they exhibited and realizing that there really is something inborn about being male. And that, like, they just loved, for instance, you know, anything that had a trigger, they just loved pulling the trigger. I didn't give them real guns. not that bad parent but uh and he

optioned it to turn it into a TV show never happened but I remember him on the phone being like I really I really related to that part about loving guns I was like all right well that those that's your character yeah I totally uh I see that you live what you uh yeah you're born for this role that's interesting

he's one of those guys where I'm I really relate to a lot of the things that he says in some way. I can't remember who was interviewing him. It was a long time ago. And someone, it was probably Conan O'Brien or something. And they said, you know, what's it like being a celebrity now? And it was sort of in the upswing of his career, maybe 20 plus years ago or more now. And he said, I'm not going to lie.

It's pretty awesome. Because, you know, if you ask that of somebody else, they'll be like, oh, I'm just so grateful. I'm blessed. I've got work. I mean, I'm blah. He's like, no, this is awesome. I go to buy a flight and it's sold. And they're like, no, we're giving you a first class C because you're Samuel L. Jackson.

Snakes on the plane. Yeah. Probably before that. That was before that. That was, I don't know if we could say the upswing of your career when you're doing Snape set up. That was more, he was at that point where he goes, I can do this movie because I'm already famous and no one's going to go, what the hell are you doing?

Right. You broke? They're just like, eh, he can get away. He was at the point. Yeah, sort of he could be a self-parody and people will still think he's cool. Right. I actually, one of my first experiments in journalism is I would, I was a movie star for a day.

And it was, as you said, it was pretty freaking awesome. Well, it happened a long time ago, so right at the start of my career. And there was a movie out called Shine, which was about a pianist who had schizophrenia. And the actor who played the pianist as a young man looked exactly like me. His name was Noah Taylor. That's fortunate. Yeah. And he's, you know, he's still around.

I was working at an entertainment magazine, and we found out he wasn't going to the Oscars. He didn't like that. Oh, man. And they were like, well, what if you went to the Oscars and just pretended to be him and see what it's like to be a movie star for a night? I assume you did not get his permission to do this.

Did not get his permission? I never actually said, I'm Noah Taylor. Everyone just assumed it because I look so much like him. I had this sort of terrible haircut, which he had like this sort of, I don't know, page boy and thick glasses at the time. It was a weird look. But I stepped, we rented a limo.

I stepped out on the red carpet and it was like a sea of adulation, just like, no, we love you, we love you, we love you. And I would just, and I would sign autograph. I never signed his name. I would sign shine on. That was the name of the movie. It was shown. But yeah, the non-stop adulation, it went to my head and it was a, only a night.

No. And B, I knew rationally it wasn't for me. Right. Like they were confident. It was fake and it was for like three hours and you're like, I'm great. Yeah. I didn't even realize how great I was until now. It was very bizarre, the power of that celebrity. I mean, I remember coming back to New York, you know, even three days later and I would be online at the grocery and be like, do they not know who I am?

And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm nobody. Right. But I'm a magazine writer who pretended to be a guy who's not even. even that famous anymore because the movies of it. But it was astounding. And people would come up to you and confess, like, I also had a horrible childhood. Like, they would just open up because they felt they knew you. Oh, wow. Will Smith told me he was a fan. It was. At the Oscars. Yeah, at the Oscars. Did you feel bad line to Will Smith? I would feel bad line to Will Smith. I didn't lie. Remember. Lied by omission. Yes, I did lie by emotion. Yeah. No, I suppose.

I got over it. You should have been like, well, you know, let's talk about it. Give me your phone and hang out. Let's do a project. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I probably couldn't have resisted doing that. And I did feel a little guilty because, you know, but I went, I knew this guy's agent, and afterwards, I, you know, I wrote him and thanked him and apologized. And he said, I don't know if it's true, but he said that this actor was actually quite grateful that I went in his stead because he didn't like these awards shows. Right, because he basically got the best of both worlds.

He got to say, he didn't have to hear anybody complain about how he didn't show up, but he also didn't have to go. Right, exactly. It was pretty good. The only awkward moment was Jeffrey Rush was the star of the movie. He played the same character as an old movie. And I went up, I was so cocky. I went up to Jeffrey Rush during the Oscars.

And I had this fake Australian accent because of the, yeah, which sounded more like the Lucky Charms Lepricon. It sounded nothing like Australia. And I went, hello, Jeffrey, it's me. And he just looked at me like, who the fuck are you? Security. Yeah, he did.

He said, like, these guys can't. Because he knew, he, like, knew the guy, so he knew I wasn't exactly like him. So that was super awkward. But the rest of it was fantastic. How did you not get kicked out of the Oscars? Well, we had a ticket. Okay. So I was just there as supposedly a journalist, but I didn't do any interviews.

I just was, you know, the stock. Yeah, I can see this conversation going on in the back where they're like, so here's the thing. He has a ticket. He's a journalist. He's kind of not doing the journalist thing. He's doing the thing where he's pretending to be this guy, but he's not really saying he's that guy. And they're just like, just let it go,

because it's going to be way more awkward if we end up kicking out this guy, who everyone thinks of this actor, if he's not causing any trouble, to keep an eye on him. Well, it's interesting. At the Oscars, none of the action is actually happening in the seats. Like there's a bar, and all of the stars are just mingling at the bar. So that's where you want to be. You don't want to be watching the Oscars while the Oscars is going on.

heard it's like eight hours you can't eat it's kind of like a tedious thing. Or is that the, is that the, that might be the Grammys, actually. I can't remember my friend, Dory Clark, I don't know if you. I love Dorie Clark. She won a brand and she was like the best bit of advice I got was to bring power bars and food to the Grammys because you can't move. It's so long. And I think she said something like, and don't quote me on this, but it was something like,

I don't need to do this again. Interesting. Yeah. It wasn't like this glamorous, amazing. this. It was kind of like, okay, come on already. Right. I'm hungry. And I'm sitting here in a suit and it's like cold and I'll take a thousand more people up, you know, next. Right. Seven hours long. It's a good problem to have. I think so. Like, oh, sorry you want a Grammy, Dory. Tough life. So gratitude emerges from two stages, affirmation and recognition. And how do we end up harnessing these types of things? Well, what I found is, as I said,

And I think we all are really good at taking things for granted. So one of my first interviews was with the barista who works at my local coffee shop. And I thanked her for the coffee. And she thanked me for thanking her. And I cut it off there. I was worried we'd go into an infinite loop of thanking. But I asked her, you know, what's it like to be a barista? And she said, it's not an easy job because you are experiencing people in a very

dangerous state, which is uncaffeinated? Uncaffeinated? Precaffeinated. Precaffeinated. Yeah. So they are not in a good mood. And by the way, she would never do this. But I did read that some baristas, if you're rude to them, will give you decaf.

Oh, burn. So there's a little selfish motivation to be nice. But she said the hardest part was that people wouldn't even treat her like a human being. They would treat her like, you know, an ATM machine or a person. kiosk or whatever. They would just wouldn't look up from their phone. They would thrust their credit card out in her direction, and she would take. And she said, that just made her feel terrible.

Yeah. And I realized when she's telling me that, like, I've done that. Dozens of times. Sure. Yeah. And it spoke to that second part, the affirmating, recognizing that someone else was doing something for you and affirming it. And so, you know, I'm not expecting a Nobel Peace Prize, but I did make a,

a pledge that I am, when I deal with a human being, while they're still humans in the service sector, I'm going to look that person in the eye, make eye contact, and say thank you. And it's actually, like we talked about before, it's a two-way street. You know, it's good for that other person to be recognized as human, but we are programmed for face-to-face interaction, and it actually makes you feel better. So there is a selfish motivation for looking someone. in the eyes saying thank you. Or saying this was an interesting study.

Wharton did a study that found that even as mixing up the words, thank you and throwing in like, I'm grateful, is actually more effective. You will get, if you write a thank you note to a potential employer that says, I'm grateful instead of I'm thank you, that you will get a higher response rate. So anyway, mixing it up. Huh. Because thank you so cliche now that it just is losing meaning in written form.

That's it. That is sort of a reflex. It's a, you know, it doesn't mean anything. But if you say, if you're more specific, when I write thank you notes, I try to be very specific. You know, thank you for, and make some reference, you know, thank you for the coffee and the Zarf. That is. Zarf? Zarsh, it's my favorite word I learned in the, in this.

What is that? Z-A-R-F is the official name for the cardboard sleeve that goes over your coffee cup. The Java jacket? It is a brand. That's a brand name. That is the brand name. They were the inventors of, but the Zarchs go back to, like, ancient China when they had, like, gold Zarfs for the emperor.

Oh, so that's not just like a word that came out in 1998. No, it's an Arabic word. Wow. It does sound Arabic. Yeah, there you go. I thought it was this play on the words like scarf and something else. I like that, but it's not. No, just coincident.

But anyway, yeah, trying to be specific in your thanks. And again, there's a selfish motivation. It makes me feel better. That's fine. I'm fine. Look, if it helps me and it helps the listeners here and the viewers, then I'm fine with it, like, also helping someone else. That's fine.

If the side effect is other people feel good, then great. But gratitude, as you note in the book, gratitude's hard to keep up with sometimes, because when things are done for us well, they're kind of invisible a lot of the time. Like great service at a restaurant, you're just like, oh, that was enjoyable. But you don't think, like, they nailed this from beginning to,

I wasn't too cold. The food came in just the right amount of time. It was quiet. The waitress was polite. The server was polite, and they gave everything in the right way, and the seat was comfortable. You just, you don't, then that's like a non, you don't make a comment.

No, you don't. I mean, I was thinking about this watching the Super Bowl the other day. Those poor refs, no one ever, actually one, Tony Romo did say on one, he said that was a good call. And I was like, that is, you just don't hear that often because like the refs are invisible until they screw up. And then they're the most hated person. What's this guy even doing here? Oh, yeah. Making the rest of the, 99% of the rest of the game rolls smoothly.

Exactly. So, yeah, it is, it is something we, when something is done well, we don't even think about it. And that was another big lesson of the book, was that there are all these masterpieces around us that we totally take for granted. One of my favorite interviews was with this guy who designed the lid for my coffee, got a little plastic lid.

And I loved it because I had given zero. Turns any cup into a sippy cup, that kind of thing. That lid, right? No, was that what it is? Oh, isn't it the, it's like it's got the little sippy part and then there's a hole in the other side so air can go in so you don't have that one? Oh, no, but that's the thing.

different one. I mean, I'm grateful for that, too. But this guy, his was very, very innovative. He, you know, he was sort of like the Elon Musk of lid designers, maybe a little more emotionally stable, but still very innovative. And his theory was, a lid can ruin your cup of coffee because it blocks the aroma. And aroma is such a part of the experience. So he, you know, made sure that he shaped the lid so that you could really burrow your nose in. Like, it's got this sort of indentation for your nose and a bigger hole in the middle. And he even talked about the shape of the opening from the mouth was like this special crescent shape.

So it came, the liquid came out smoothly. And it was hilarious because he could have gone on for, you know, eight hours. And he was so passionate. And it made me realize there are all these amazing designs that we take for granted. and that people put years of their life. It's like 99% invisible coffee lid edition. Exactly. I love that show.

And it was the same message. And I started to notice it all the time. Like my desk lamp at work, it's got this little indentation for my thumb on the on-off switch. And it just makes it more comfortable. Like, you know, 1% more comfortable. But still, the time. any aggregations of all these little things that make our life better are totally taken for granted.

Yeah, the amount of time that goes into these things, especially, because there are probably thousands of lid prototypes and we're just like, yeah, this is just a lid. It's a trivial part of the experience. No, it was fun. I mean, I spent like three days reading about the history of lids and all the patents and, like, you know, there are lids that turn different colors depending on your coffee. Do you ever think, like, good thing I'm a writer and a researcher, I'd never get any work done? You had to make this stuff your job or you would just be screwed, man.

Oh, no, it is. I mean, that's one thing that is dangerous about, I think probably as a podcast or you feel the same way. You know, you could spend a week just researching Liz and you never get anything like, you know, any guests you have are interesting people you could spend. Yeah, like your whole life turns into the blog by Tim Urban, wait, but why? where it's like, oh, this page ended up, this post ended up being 32 pages long because there's an 18-page text box about the construction and design of coffee lids that goes on and took me six months to create. And you're just like, good thing, this is your job.

Exactly. Yeah. Otherwise, you would be in serious trouble. Gratitude is contagious also in a way, right? Because people who are helped by others are more likely to help other people and pay it forward. Is that your experience? Well, one thing, I mean, there was a, some very interesting article, an op-ed in the New York Times about the dangers of gratitude,

because every good thing has its downside. And one, this woman was very concerned that if you're too grateful, you become complacent. So, and it's almost she thought, saw it as a, like this right-wing conspiracy, like, you know, okay. That the, you know, Walmart will tell the workers, be grateful for your, for your minimum wage jobs, just be grateful that you have a job at all. Positive thinking keeps them docile. Exactly. The opiate of the masses. But it turns out the research says that that is not the way it plays out in real life. But actually, the more grateful you are, the more you want to pay it forward, the more you want to help others.

And I've seen this anecdotally. Like when I, you know, I battled depression. And when I'm in a depressed mood, I am not looking out for other people. Like all I care about is getting out of the depression. So this idea of being grateful makes you want to pay it for it. And I saw it play out in small ways. One was just the idea of water. You know, the coffee is 98.8% water.

So I went up to the New York Reservoir system to thank them for giving us water. And I couldn't believe hundreds of people make our water possible. And it's just this crazy, miraculous fact that we can turn on a little metal spigot and get clean water. And how this is not something that was true for 99% of our human history, still not true for billions of people who have to walk miles for water. So it, you know, it made me think, this is something I should think more about. And how can I provide access to water for other people? So, you know, it made me get involved in this water charity.

And again, I'm not expecting a Nobel Prize, but it was just you know, it was a real perspective shift. Just the idea, I tell my kids, you know, the cliche about is the glass half full or half empty? I say,

I think that might be the wrong way to look at it. It's the fact that there's water in that glass at all. That we can turn on this little lever and have clean water. It's crazy. That's great. So we should...

In multiple places in your house. Like, oh, I don't want to have to go all the way upstairs. Good. There's three options downstairs for me to get water. I know. It's amazing. Yeah. You never think about that.

Unheard of in human history. I want to make sure we separate the idea of gratitude versus just positive thinking and like this kind of BSE self-help stuff. How are the two concepts different? Because it really is different than just positive thinking for the sake of it. Yeah, I mean, I am, as we talked about, delusional optimism can sometimes be good. I like that gratitude is two-way, so you know, you're making yourself feel better,

but you're also thanking someone else and making their lives better. And also, to me, the main drawback of positive thinking is when you believe that just by positive thinking, you can make something happen, like the secret, you know, that if you, if you think positively, then your cancer will go away, which I think is a terrible thing, because then if the cancer doesn't go away, you're putting the blame on the person. Oh, you just weren't positive. You weren't optimistic enough. It's your fault that you're dying.

So to me, that's the big danger of positive thinking, you know, that it's pseudoscience. But gratitude, I think there's enough scientific backup that it's good for both parties, that there's very little downside that I can see. What kind of big experiment are you working on or looking at next? Well, one thing is I, as part of this book, I implied to sort of market it. I said that I would write a thousand thank you notes to readers of my articles and books. Oh, wow. And that turned out, you know, it sounded good, but a thousand is a shitload.

That's like three a day for the year. So it is, I try to write ten or five. 15 a day and it is like, I'm consuming. You know, in one sense, I love it because just the feedback I've gotten from people, you know, they tell me what to write in their thank you notes. I set it up on the internet. So it's really good to see what connects with people, you know, what parts of the book. That's very helpful.

And you get that with your... I do. I never thought about it as getting, as writing a thank you. Because I do reply to everything. Sometimes it takes me two months. but I will reply to everything and I'll be like, oh, thanks for listening. You know, are you doing this? What part did you like about that?

Maybe I should think about it as a gratitude practice instead of a chore of going through and answering only. There you go. That way it's killed two birds with one stone. Exactly. I mean, it's good. But yeah, it's great research, but hugely time consuming. So that has delayed me a little.

I'm particularly interested in the idea of fake news and truth and how, you know, how we know what we know. and, you know, how do I know that even the most basic thing? Like, you know, how do I know that you are a human and not some sort of? I don't even know. And if I did, I probably wouldn't say anything. I would kind of defeat the purpose of being a really well-crafted robot or whatever. Exactly.

You are good. You are really good? So are you going to do, are we going to go down the fact-check rabbit? We're like, well, you know, I fact-checked this article. But then I had to fact-check the fact-checker. And then I had to fact check what I felt. That's exactly it. You got it.

You got it. Yeah, you can. I'm trying to think of the time. Is it going to be like fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake news? I don't know. I like that. I haven't decided on that. That's a terrible time.

It doesn't even make sense for what you're doing. But real, real, real, real, real, real news. Yeah. But yeah, that's, to me, that's my obsession right now, just because I think if we can't agree on a truth, then it's going to be hard to solve the big problems. That's a deep philosophical. That's like a Sam Harris level question.

There you go. What is truth? And it's like Q three hour debate with Jordan Peterson, never getting to any point or any conclusion. I listened to that. So that was a tough episode. It was one of those where I went, all right, Sam,

I'm going to listen to the next one, but you're losing me here, buddy. He redeemed himself, though. He admitted it was not. That is one thing I like about Sam and other thinkers. is when they say, that didn't work. Yeah. And I love to say that about my own work, you know, that.

And that might be part of this new book, you know, just going back and fact-checking my old books and saying, you know, this does not hold up. Because I think it's important. I listen to Bo, what's the name of the guy who directed eighth-grader, Bo Bo Burnham? He's a genius. I love him. But one of the favorite things he said in this, I think it was fresh air, was like, You know, he, he likes to go back and critique his old work and, and almost, and disown a lot of it. That sounds very familiar.

Yeah. People go, oh, you know, your stuff is great. I've been listening for years and I'm just like, I'm almost embarrassed because I go, oh, gosh, you heard stuff I made four years ago? That was awful. All of it was just universally terrible, which isn't true, but. Not true, but also great that you can say that because I think it shows, you know, evolution. I heard David Letterman used to watch every single show that he did every night and then just spend like three hours beating himself up, which sounds kind of unhealthy. No, yeah.

But I think a lot of comedians do that. There's a mix. I know Meryl Street watches herself and critiques herself, like watches her rushes. My grandfather was funny because he had a trick he would always play for his friends who were in show business. And he would say, even if he hadn't seen the show, he would go up to them. and say, I saw the show last night. What happened? Just with that tone.

And they would always go off. Like, I know. Can you believe that lighting guy screwed up the queue? Man. And that is an example of the negative bias that we're talking about. Yeah. Like we focus on, but probably 98% of the audience didn't notice and had a great time.

Yeah, because, of course, what you could do? What happened? I know. Can you believe everything worked out like clockwork? That never happened. And the guest was phenomenal. It's like, yeah.

Yeah, we're just thinking about that one thing. You'll have to tell me what I did wrong that sticks in our mind. I can't even, I don't even think about that stuff in real time. Unless, you know, the thing that's bothering, if I had to narrate the thing that's bothering me right now, it would be like all this background noise that nobody noticed until now. Tell me, when this will probably end up as a clip, but the time that you ended up playing mafia with a bunch of A-listers in New York. Oh, yeah.

Well, I interviewed, I was working at Esquire magazine, and I interviewed David Blaine, who I love. We were talking earlier because you've interviewed magicians that a lot of times, magic they are best at interacting through their magic. So it was a challenging interview because, you know, he would rather just show me card tricks than talk about his childhood. But after the interview, we got along enough that he's like, come on over my, we're going to play a game at my friend Ed's house.

And the game was werewolf. which is like mafia. And the idea is you have 20 people in a group, and one of them is the bad guy, the assassin or the werewolf, and you have to just sent just by asking questions, figure out who the bad guy is. So I got there, and his friend Ed's house,

it was Ed Norton. Right. Awesome. Yeah. American History Acts. Well, like one of the best actors of working today. And it was like a star, it was like everywhere. Oh, there's Seth Rogen. There's Paul Rudd.

There's Danny DeVito. like, oh my lord. And here I was a journalist, and this game is all about acting. So it was like the worst case scenario. Yeah, it was terrible because I remember it turned out in the end that Ed Norton was the werewolf, the bad guy, but he was so brilliantly convincing. You know, he's an Academy Award nominated or winning actor. You know, he was like, if you pick me as the werewolf, you are a fucking idiot. And he was like, I was so. intimidated. I was like, okay, you're not the werewolf. You are definitely not that he was the werewolf. Of course. So it was, yeah, it was, I was so outmatched. It was, you know, humiliating,

but wonderful, because you saw, like, it's like playing NBA basketball, right? Like LeBron James was like, you know, just watching. Yeah, except for you're in the game instead of just sitting courtside. Well, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to be humiliated, but just being able to see what they do to mess with your mind is just, it was a fantastic experience. This is such a, I suppose, Seinfeldian thought, but like, how often can those people possibly even get together in one room? All of them are extremely busy. You know, people, I guess when I was growing up in Michigan, I just thought, like, famous people hang out at the same clubs, the same restaurants, the same bars, they all have the same friends. Maybe,

but I am nowhere near that tier, and I barely have time to do anything. So to get all of them together in one room to play werewolf seems just awesome i know i think about that too but i think part of it is you know all of these like the the music moguls who who go out every night to clubs and i'm like what you know i don't go but i think that's like their office they held meetings there like they do business so maybe that's it especially in new york you go to the comedy seller with just and silver a friend of mine is a comic and back when he was just getting started we were friends and he goes we showed up at the comedy seller and i want to say it was like I look 10 feet to my right.

And it was like, is that Chris Rock or a guy that just looks like Chris Rock? And no one's bothering him at all. And he's like, yeah, but we can't go sit at that table because that's the table where like Chris Rock sits with Louis C.K. or something. Right. There's a reason there's empty seats there. Interesting. Because you don't just go, hey, guys, what's going on? They're like, hey, man, you haven't sort of earned the seed at this table. Right.

And I just thought, but I'm a patron. Don't dumb people like me go up and sit there. And he's like, no. because they're intimidated and they go, shit, crap, it's Chris Rock. I'm not going to do that. And I thought, what would happen if I just did that? That's a good experiment.

Yeah, it was a good experiment. Yeah, and he was kind of like, look, man, you're here with me, do not go sit at that table. Because I guess it's like, you know, then they're going, hey, man, control your friend over here. Right. Probably wouldn't have happened, but I don't think it would have made them look good. So I decided, I got to respect my host here.

I love it. But you see that. I was upstairs having coffee. Jen left to go set up. the lights down here and I went, that's the guy from entourage just sitting down in his gym clothes right next to, well, entourage in a bunch of movies. Adrian Crenier, he's a director. Oh, yeah. Just sitting there. And I was like, oh, and no one's bugging him. Clearly everybody knew who it was, especially in New York. And I just thought, you know, I kind of want to be like,

hey, I love all your stuff, but that just seems so trite. There was no point. So I decided against it. And I realized this is probably the process a lot of people go through. Well, you should tell him your cousin. That's what I would do. That's the end. I did. I did. One of my favorite, when I met Amy Polar, because I had a friend who was friends with her, and she looked at me and she was like, we've met before, right? And we haven't. But it made me feel so good that she was like, oh, yeah, I recognize you. You were in our circle.

So it was probably, she was totally, she says that to everyone. She's like, you were that guy from that movie where you're the schizophrenic piano player. I saw it at the Oscars. I wish she'd said that. But it is a good, I think that is a good strategy. We meant because it's like, who's going to object? That is pretty good. And then it's like, no, we haven't.

Well, how do you know? Exactly. I remember our interaction. You have forgotten it, but I remember. How do you find if you're a cousin or you just were all cousins, so it's just the safest thing you can say? Yes. I mean, I would, when I was doing that project, it was crazy.

I got photographs with dozens of celebrities just by using that line. But I tried to, the idea, you know, I'm not just here to take advantage of you. I told them the message of the book, which was that we're all cousins, so maybe we shouldn't be such assholes to each other. And as long as you have a positive message, then they're willing. If it's all about you, like, I just want a photo with, you know, celebrity. Then they're not going to do it. And if it's Larry David, he goes, eh, I don't feel like it right now. I'm walking.

I've seen that happen in real life. And I went, wow, he's just really that guy. Because in the woman who was with him, was like, Larry, just do it. And he's like, I don't want to. I'm walking. I'm weird. It's a weird request. And my friend who asked for the photo is just like thrilled because he's getting a real

life performance of exactly what Larry David would say. I mean, he is one of the luckiest people in the world because he has an ex. People want him to be an asshole. They want him to be rude to them. Mudgeon. Yeah. So he can act as much of a dick as he wants. And that's like,

I remember once I was walking with Conan O'Brien and who is a lovely man and not like Larry David. But one thing he told me the secret was, you know, people are so primed. They have this bias that he's a funny guy. So they're going to laugh. Once you get to that level, whatever you say, they're going to laugh.

So if he would make up nonsense syllables in an experiment, And he'd be like, they'd be like, hey, Conan. And he would go, squiddly do. And they'd be like, ah, that's magical. Yes, the guy, that Conan, gee or Conan. So it is, it says a lot about, yeah, once you get to that level, like, the bias, the positive bias is so strong that people are, you know, going, you know, which I'm sure is dangerous, because that's when you get psychotic delusions that you can be president or whatever. That's right. Conan for president.

I would definitely vote for him. I think, yeah, given the selection we've got currently, depending on when this airs, then, yeah, why don't? AJ, thank you very much. So, great episode, Jason. He's funny because he's such a uniquely strange dude, but he's very, when you meet him, you know, you just see he's, what you see is what you get. There is no kind of like, oh, he's being extra weird for the book. Like, he's really a cool guy, super smart.

Obviously, he's brilliant. and you can just imagine his whole life is kind of like what he writes about in his books. Yeah, I've read all his books, and he is definitely a character. I would definitely like to meet him someday, and hopefully not will he's in the middle of an experiment, though. I want to catch him on an off time, you know? Right, like, oh, this experiment is where I punch everybody that I meet in the face at least once the first time I meet. I mean, who knows? He's got all kinds of, he said, oh, the next book's going to be even more weird.

And I was like, can you give me a sneak peek? And he's like, no. And I was like, oh, well, cool. Thanks for that. But he said, no, it's not because of you. It's because some nature of the experiment doesn't allow for people to know what it is. So who knows what's going on? I wait with bated breath for the next book.

I know, me too. Great big thank you to AJ Jacobs. That book, again, is called Thanks A Thousand. And if you want to know how we manage to book all these great people, manage our networks using systems and tiny habits, we've got a free course for you. Six-Minute Networking. It's over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course, and I know, I know. You'll do it later, right? You don't have time right now. Look, at six minutes a day, I don't believe your excuses.

Kicking the can down the road, you cannot make up for lost time when it comes to relationships and networking. I see people postpone this all the time and then they write like, I don't have time to dig the well right now. It's like, yeah, I know. I know you don't. That's how this works. This is the stuff I wish I knew a decade ago, not fluff, in fact, crucial. And that's all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Speaking to building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from AJ Jacobs. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, and there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. This show is produced in association with Podcast One, and this episode was co-produced by Jason Double Mocha Lottacino DePhilippo and Jen Harbinger.

Show notes and worksheets are by Robert Fogarty, and I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Remember, we rise by lifting others, so the fee for this show is that you share it with friends. when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and those you don't. Lots more in the pipe. Very excited to bring it to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way.

Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts.

Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.