The Jordan Harbinger Show - 178: Michelle Tillis Lederman | Why Relationships Are Our Greatest Assets

Episode Date: March 28, 2019

Michelle Tillis Lederman (@mtlederman) is a former finance executive, NYU professor, and author of The 11 Laws of Likability and The Connector's Advantage: 7 Mindsets to Grow Your Influence and Impact. What We Discuss with Michelle Tillis Lederman: Understanding where you fall on the connector spectrum when it comes to developing relationships and building a network. How to increase your own self-trust to recognize what you do well and bring it to the surface where it can be useful. How to make strong connections and effectively manage your network even if you're an introvert. How to magnify the power of connection you're probably already leveraging in your personal life if you're an extrovert. The seven mindsets of a connector who can make things happen faster, easier, and better. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! One's a comedian, one's a radio/TV host. Together they bring you The SDR Show -- a no-apologies, not politically correct, not for the faint of heart show that somehow blends the classic energy of a morning radio show into the new era of digital entertainment. Listen to The SDR Show here or where your ears enjoy podcasts most! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. One of the most common recurring themes on this show is networking and relationship development. The reason for this is because no single skill set in my entire life has yielded nearly the amount of business results, wealth, happiness, fulfillment, and well-being, as has the skill and practice of building and maintaining strong relationships in my personal and professional life. Today on the show, Michelle Tillis Laterman, an author, former finance executive, NYU Prof, and perhaps most importantly, good friend of mine, discuss the idea that people who connect with one another do so on a spectrum. We'll find out where you are on that spectrum of connectors, as well as give you the tools to move upwards, if you so desire. We'll also explore the types of connectors and outline a few practical ways that you can learn to become one of these

super-connected, successful archetypes yourself. Now, if you're an introvert, this episode will help you manage this without telling you to just put yourself out there. And if you're an extrovert, you'll find some tools to magnify the power of connection that you're probably already leveraging in your own life. Speaking of networking, we've got our six-minute networking course for those of you who want to learn how to do this. It is free, so quit your crying, no more excuses. It's at Jordanharbinger.com slash course, and it only takes a few minutes per day, so get after it.

Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. All right, here's Michelle Laterman. Let's talk about the connectors advantage or just connectors in general. How's that? Sounds good. I'll follow your lead. That's what worked well the last few times. So far, so good.

Yeah. What I liked about when we're doing the prep and everything is you really have like outlined different mindsets of a connector. Most people just go like put yourself out there and network. And it's like, and scene, right? That's the whole show. But you've got different types of connectors and a spectrum of connectors and we like spectrums now, don't we?

And also the mindsets of a connector. which I think are important because a lot of people don't really think you need to do anything more than be friendly or follow up with an email. So let's go through these mindsets because I think these are important because you can then adopt each one sort of as a piece instead of just being more social in air quotes, which people can't do. And the one that is social and curious is not intended the way people generically think of it. Okay. Well, what do we mean by that? When I say social, I don't mean social butterfly. I don't mean life of the party.

I mean thinking about being curious. Okay. Right? That's why they go hand in hand. It's not being social and it's not being social and curious. So when I meet you to ask questions, to learn about you, to find where that common interest and that common value, that common experience, that common something, which is where connection forms. Okay.

Curious I like. A lot of people think they're not curious. Or people will think they're social but not curious. Or maybe they think they're both tends to be the people that aren't either. Well, sometimes people think. that they're being nosy. And especially, you see this a little bit more with introverts. They don't want to ask questions because they think they're prying or being nosy or being too forward. I have slash had that and had to get over that. And it was very helpful. I used to be like, well, I don't want to ask some,

I'm bothering them. You know, someone will go, what are you doing this weekend? And I go, oh, I don't know, nothing. And then I wouldn't say, what about you? Because it's like, well, that's none of my business. But most people love to share. Of course. And they love to talk about themselves. When you grow up shy, you're not necessarily thinking about that. And then, of course, it didn't help that as soon as I was starting to get over that really well in law school, I went to go work in the UK, and this partner was in the elevator of this stuck-up British law firm called linklators. Happy to name-check them here. And they, the partner said, what do you, you have big plans this weekend? And I said, yeah, I'm going to go around London. He's like, oh, that sounds splendid or

something like that. And I said, what about you? And he goes, oh, well, I have a fishing cabin. I'm going to go fishing. I said, oh, that should be really, that should be great. Have a great weekend. And then on Monday, another partner was like, did you ask Mr. Crawford about his weekend plans? And I said, I think so in the elevator after he asked about my weekend plans. And then they were like, that man has worked very hard to get where he is. Very hard. And I was like, Got it. Don't show interest in anyone else. So I got a little scarred there. But I think it does, there is a benefit to this in most cultures anyway where, like you said, people love to share, but we tend to forget that because we revert to bashful, especially if we're introverted.

Yeah. So, I mean, that one experience is interesting because that's probably really more about him and his defensiveness around feeling like he's allowed to go and have some fun. Or maybe he's an incredibly private person and, you know, somebody who's hit that level, they might have their reasons around it. And so maybe we ask broader, more generic questions, nothing so personal. And that's what I actually usually say to introverts. If you feel or are worried about that, one, think of it as I'm showing interest, I'm showing you I care. And two, don't go personal. And think about only asking questions around something that you would be willing to share as well. And if it would pass your smell test, it'll probably pass theirs. I'm at this point now, especially

actually being an interviewer where I will ask ridiculous stuff. And if people get offended, I'm like, that's your own problem. Like, I really don't care. Oh, and I'm not just talking about it on the show. Of course I do that on a show. But I will ask somebody something and say things in everyday life. And it's. Okay, like what?

I'm trying to think. Jen, can you think of an example of something I asked where you were just like, oh, God, why? I feel like that happens. It happens a lot. I can't think of an example. Right. Yeah, nothing, nothing. nothing readily on hand, but there will be something where, oh, you know, someone will have

an accent, this isn't even that bad. Someone will have like an accent and I'll go, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Pakistan or I'm from Yemen. Oh, man, that place is going through a rough spot right now, huh? You know, oh, yeah, you know, there's a lot of, is your family still there? Oh, man, you must be so worried. Like, I'm just like, I'm talking like, I know the guy. And Jen's just kind of like, hey, you don't know if he's can react well to this. But you know what is funny, universally, they are, they start having a good time because all of the social convention that keeps people sort of separate from one another goes out the window pretty fast. Sometimes when you are just that open, and that's one of the mindsets that's open and accepting, if you're that open and you're that free with your interest

and your questions, and if somebody gets that sense from you, then they're not necessarily looking for the, how can I find a fence here? Right. Right. And, they might be tentative at first, but then as they start to see and feel that from you, they take their barriers down a little bit and they just engage in the conversation. It's kind of like, we might call this frame control where it's like, I'm so open. Say that you and I are talking and then a third person comes in and they're shy. They kind of can't keep being shy because you and I are going to mercilessly pummel them into being open to the point where they're like, okay, I guess it's just easier for them

to start spilling their guts than it is for them to keep themselves walled off. and that's something that is tougher to do as an individual, but you can definitely do it, I'm sure. Because you and I, when we talked on Skype, it was like instant friendship because we're both very open and kind of like that. And I feel like you probably wouldn't let somebody off the hook so easily with being close.

No. I mean, even if I see somebody lurking in a conversation, and this is what I say to people about being social, is if you see somebody who looks like they may want to be part of it, they might be eavesdropping, giving a little bit of a body signal, open up your body and invite them in with your eyes and even, you know, with your gestures to bring them into that conversation, because it's hard to break in, especially in one of those environments where somebody's already really animated and we're going. Nobody's going to break into our conversation.

Right, because they don't want to be rude or they're like, crap. How do I jump in with this amount of energy that is to have? Right. And then because you want to match the energy of a conversation when you join generally or have maybe more. by a little. Or feel like there's something that you're adding or contributing. Right. One of the things I would tell people when I actually do a demo of this, because they're like,

well, how do you break in? And I say, well, if you're going to break in, you've got to make sure that people start looking at you when you do it. Oh, yeah. So you can't be like, oh, did you just? No. Right. No light voices.

It's, did I just hear you say? Come in like a wrecking ball. Yeah. And then they're all looking at you and just say, you know, sorry for eavesdropping, but I couldn't help but dot, dot, dot, dot. and then take the conversation from there and now you're in. But you're playing off of the conversation they were having, as long as that conversation's not between just two people.

Because it's hard to break into that private conversation. But if there's three or more, go for it. That's a good point. I mean, of course, there are exceptions where one person is crying or it seems very serious. Like, then, you know, you would respect that boundary. But you're right. I like that sort of rule of two.

There were two guys in a lobby of the hotel yesterday morning talking about some kind of cool sounding tech product and an investing thing. And I was like, I want to chime in. Then I was like, oh, this is clearly either a sales meeting or this person is like an investor. And it's not something where they want to just chat with the guy next to them. But you're right. Three or more, especially for some reason, if they're standing, it's generally a little bit more of an open type of situation because it's less formal maybe, less of a focus on one another. And of course, context would matter.

And environment does matter, right? So sometimes when you're standing, that does make it easier. But I've been in waiting rooms, right? So you're at some office building and you're all hanging out in the reception area and two people are having a conversation. Well, we're kind of in this space. And so I might jump in because I'm bored. I'm like, I've got to wait. I need to kill time. I need to keep my energy up. I need to feel it. So I'll jump into whatever conversation was there. And I actually tell people who are on job interviews to do that. It will actually bring your nerves down. That's a great idea. Sort of warming up. I do that before shows, too. where, and Jen sees this, where I'll be, I'll chat with, not just the waiter at breakfast, but it's like, I'll chat with people in the elevator because I don't want to get set up and everything. And then I'm like, okay, I have to speak the first sentence I've spoken today. Oh, man, you know, you want your energy. You've got to want to peek at some point when the recording is happening, not in the middle.

And that's like flipping a switch. And that's not bringing the real you. Right. So if we ever feel like we're flipping a switch, I tell people to try to flip that switch before you get to the environment you need to get to. find that productive energy and, you know, figure out where to get your mind in the right place for that interaction. So we have open and accepting our social and curious mindset of a connector. And you have have a clear vision. What a vision of what? What are we talking about here? So this is one that

people question a lot because that's really about me, right? I'm a connector, but my vision is what I'm working on, what my goals are, what I'm trying to accomplish. Okay. And everyone's like, well, but connector really needs to be outwardly focused. Right. Help others before expecting anything in return. Without that mindset, and we'll get to it. Okay. But what I talk about in the Connector's advantage is that the results are faster, easier, or better. Don't mind the grammar. Faster, easier, better.

And if you are thinking about why there is an advantage to being relationship based in your interactions and your business and your life, then you need to actually know what you're working on so that you see those results for you as well as for them. You don't want to forget yourself in the mix of being a connector. So have a clear vision of what you're working on, what your goals are. My goal is make this a bestseller, right? So I'm very clear this is what we're working on right now. And that clear vision means you know what you want and you know how to ask for it.

And a lot of that chapter is focused on how do you ask for something because it's really hard. A lot of people find that to be tricky. I, of course, think that some of the reason people think it's tricky is because they've neglected their network. They've neglected their relationships for five years. And then they're like, so I have. have this dog grooming ebook and I really want you to sell it to your email list and I feel shame asking you because I've never done anything for you. And yes, I did get your three holiday cards. And yeah, I did see your email and your text and no, I didn't reply because Netflix. But here's

my book. You know, we talk about being long-term focused. And this is actually a follow-up to the likability book. And I know we've done a couple shows on that. This is really going from, well, networking is something that you do, a connector of someone that you are. Ah, interesting. Okay. And so this is embodying how I think about people, how I think about interactions, how I think about how I'm putting myself out there. And when you are a connector, you're always thinking with these mindsets. And even though I might not have done something for the person who, you know, has the e-grooming dog book, I might have done something for their neighbor or their best friend or none of them. But it's the chain reaction. When you present yourself to the world this way and you are giving and you are thinking from a place of abundance and you're conscientious and you trust and all the things that we're going to talk about, it is exponential in the response and people want to give, even if it's not, and it's not linear and it shouldn't be linear. It shouldn't be quid pro quo or whatever that lack of phrase is.

Yeah, that's what that's what it is. Yeah. I actually originally had a concept of the law of reciprocity and it really bothered me and I couldn't figure out why. because reciprocity is that concept of, I scratch your back, you stretch mine. It can be, but it also has to do with the idea that, man, Michelle was really nice. She's so technically minded. She fixed my printer. Definitely did not. None of that would ever happen.

But then it's like, you know, I should make this introduction because that would really help her. It just basically engenders goodwill. It doesn't have to be quid pro quo. A lot of the time, I feel like it's just a feeling of reciprocity versus, oh, crap. Now I've got to pay for dinner because they came all this way. It seems to be a little bit less conscious. Quid pro quo, neither of us can say it, is all right, well, you know, you had me on this program and now I have to go on yours. Because if not, you've violated a contract that we kind of more or less explicitly have created.

Yeah, and that's all the stuff I want to get rid of. It's yucky. It's yucky. when we think about asking for something, my first thing to everybody is if you don't ask the answers no. If you ask, you immediately increase your odds. So I encourage people to ask, but there's a right way to ask and a wrong way to ask. Right, because I definitely have been asked for a lot of stuff where I go, I no longer want to talk to this person. Or yuck, you're going on the blacklist. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Michelle Laterman.

We'll be right back after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to jordanharbinger.com slash subscribe. And now back to our show with Michelle Laterman. I actually had somebody in the first five minutes of meeting them, ask for something. I mean, I think I was still shaking their hand and I was taken aback. And I was like, and I had to check myself a little bit because I am somebody who promotes ask, ask for what you need, ask for what you want, but ask in the right way. And she was bold, which I also admire and respect, and she asked for what she wanted. And I couldn't give her what she wanted

right then and there, because I didn't know who she was. But what I said was, well, why don't I get to know you first? Yeah. And I kept an open mind. I kept the mindset of somebody who's relationship focused and relationship-based and willing to give this person a chance. And what she wanted was an introduction to one of my clients. Oh, wow. And she asked for that within five minutes. Wow. Asking for a referral within the first few minutes is inappropriate at best. Now, this was a former client of hers that she lost touch with, a current client of mine, and she wanted to be reattached to them. Nothing wrong with that on its face. Nothing wrong with that on his face. It was just a little like, you know, off-putting at the moment. And so at the end of our conversation of getting to

know her, I said, so here's what I can do. I don't know you. I don't know your work, so I can't endorse that, but I can certainly reach out to the client and say, you've worked with them in the past, and you wanted to reconnect and see if they're open. And she said, that would be wonderful. And that was something I was comfortable with. You know, I'm thinking about why that social convention seems inappropriate. And I think here's what I'm coming up with on the fly here. It devalues their relationship that with you that doesn't exist yet, because it's within a first few minutes. If they're just going, oh, you're the stone I need to get to this other thing that I want. It's really, it kind of says, here's how I'm going to use you and I have no other. I'm not really that interested in figuring out

anything else that we can do together. I hear that. It's like a devalue. that happens there. So here's what's going to surprise you. I did that. Put them back in touch. The client was open to it. She got work from the client. She was happy.

She credited me for it. I really didn't do anything. Sure. Years later, we still stayed in touch. We were in each other's networks. She never really asked me for more. I never asked her for anything. But we kind of were friendly.

I put a note out to this group of women that I needed this exercise for some training program. Anybody have any ideas. She showed up with a stack of books to where I was that day. walking through them with me trying to help me. That's amazing. And so rare that it's the exception that proves the rule, I think.

And so what I learned, and that's part of what I put in here, is this might have been somebody who was a connector, who had that approach. And so she felt comfortable making ass because she knew she's also a giver, even if though it wasn't to me right away. It was years later. And I really admire and respected that she showed up for that. And so I trust, right, another mindset. I trust that people who are putting themselves in that mix might not be giving it to me, but they're giving it to someone. I still think I would have a hard time with somebody who came out right away with that.

Don't get me wrong. I did, but I was really pleased to have it come full circle. The abundance mindset and things like that we can kind of get into later. Trust, I feel like is almost... The abundance is the one you like help craft. Yeah. Well, we can get down there in a minute. Maybe we'll highlight that later.

Trust. It definitely makes sense. having a spirit of generosity is essentially what, giving, becoming a giver, what does this mean? Because I think a lot of people think they're generous and maybe some of them are and some of them aren't. The spirit, you know, these mindsets kind of play off of each other. That mindset of abundance that will highlight because you are so crucial to that section, that enables us to have a generous spirit when we come from that place of abundance. If we are very conscientious, it enables trust, right?

trust enables the generous spirit, right? So I just said, I trusted that people who are doing it, and so I was able to still give, even though I was, oh, right? Yeah. So these things are really intertwined. It's nonlinear, and different mindsets will help support us at different times. Generous spirit is not just about giving. It is absolutely about give because you can, give because you want to, give without expectation of all that stuff we've been talking about. And I believe that, and I'm not minimizing it at all. But I think it's also about being generous with yourself. it's about setting boundaries. If you are going to be able to be conscientious,

you need to know what you want to say yes to and know what you want to say no to. Oh, God, that's been such a challenge for me. I've spent the last 11, well, now 12 years saying yes to way too much stuff. And then the past one year, so the 12th year, I finally said, you know, I'm just going to not do a lot of this.

And now that we're entering our 13th year of doing the show, I made an annual plan, which I'm really trying hard to stick to, and I'm not doing stuff that's not on there with very few exceptions. Like if a friend says, look, I'm having a birthday weekend. Okay, maybe I'll put it in the plan. But the whole thing was designed so that in the moment I don't go, sure, oh, crap, what did I get myself into, which is like the story of my life. Okay.

So my head is going to so many places right now. My annual plan is on a sticky note. And I... It's not a very comprehensive plan. It is, though. because what it does is it enables you to have that sphere of generosity and enables you to be conscientious at the same time. Because if you have your list of here's the things that I'm working on, it used to be five or six things on list. Now I'm only allowed to have three.

Okay. And so one of the things this year was the book. And one of them might have been to create some leverage in my business. I don't remember. It's in my drawer. It's a sticky note. I need an annual plan on a sticky note that just says no. That's the other story I'm going to tell you in a second.

And the third thing was something. around my kids and my family. And so if it doesn't meet one of those three things, something around them, you know, those kids that I have, you know, yada yada yada, I don't know, my kids in family. It was very easy for me to say, well, does it fit? No. And so not getting sidetracked, not getting off on tangents. That's a way for you to have a clear vision, right? And to be conscientious about what you say yes to and what you say no to because a connector follows through. They say they're going to do it. They're going to do it. Yeah. And you trust that. and they then, usually, as you just said,

stretched themselves too thin. So speaking of that little sticky note with the word no, my husband wrote that on a sticky note, stuck it on my monitor of my computer. It lasted there for probably a year until it fell off. And it was the first time I felt I had permission to say no. And so sometimes that's a generous spirit as well, as being generous with yourself around when you say no to something,

it's saying yes to something else. even if that yes is sitting on your couch and binge watching your favorite show. I think that's a really important point. I think we should highlight this a little bit because I routinely in my inbox, I get a lot of email, especially from women actually, because I think women are raised maybe in America to be like more giving to other people and subvert their own needs. I know my mom certainly was like that.

I've definitely done my share of that. In my old company, it was always like Jordan takes the last leftover kind of thing. And I was fine with that. It's kind of a leaders eat last kind of situation. On the other hand, when I started dating Jen, she was kind of like, hey, you realize that you're kind of doing everything. And everyone's just like, oh, Jordan will do that. Oh, we don't have to do the hard stuff. Jordan will do it.

And then you get resented for that kind of stuff over time because people will come to expect it. And then the second you set boundaries. And I think people who haven't set boundaries know this intuitively or instinctively. if we don't respect ourselves, if we don't say no, we don't be generous with ourselves for a long enough time, it actually seems in our head to get harder because the consequences start to become real. If you set a boundary, the first day, the first week you walk into work, look, I'm not going to do seven people's job. They go, well, you're not the person we're going to push around. But if you've been doing it for seven years, and then one day you go, I've had enough of this crap.

It's hard for the world to shift and to see anything differently. And that's why One of the techniques I teach is that yes or no is never just yes or no. You can say yes if, yes after, yes when, anything, any qualifying factor. It's like improv, yes, and you'll give me a raise. Yes, and I want another day of vacation if I'm coming in on this one. Yes, I can do that after I do this. Or yes, if you're able to get this reprioritized. Or yes, with training.

Or yes, with help. So yes, if, yes, and yes, after, yes, with, and no but. And I usually say ban the butt. Ban the butt. Ban the butt. Ban the butt. But when you say no, no but softens the no. Because it's really, it's uncomfortable to say no.

It's uncomfortable to get a no. But if you say no, but, there's some qualification. No, but I can do this instead. No, but I can maybe do it then. No, but Jordan will do it. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, there's always someone further down in the totem pole you can stuff it with. I like the idea that being a connector is on a spectrum because I think a lot of people think about this, of course, in this binary sense where they're like, well, I'd love to.

We have this networking course that's six-minute networking, kind of like six-minute abs. And I hope people get that. Otherwise, I just bought those domains for no reason. But we will throw things on this course, and it's a really useful course. and people will go, ah, well, you know, I'm not really that type of person. One, that's why it's a freaking course, but I digress. Two, what do you mean? Of course you are.

I wasn't a young kid who was like, you know what, I'm going to generate a lot of personal relationships. I'm an only child. That's not how we're wired, man. At least that's not how we start off. And to be an introvert as well, it's just that's something that I definitely never thought of myself as somebody who's going to know. lot of people. And here we are. So I'd love to go through this sort of connector spectrum and

disabuse people of the idea that everyone has to be a super connector because that's kind of trending now too. Yeah. And that's actually really important. I kind of think about the spectrum as the first four levels. So non-connector, emerging, responsive, and then acting. And everyone is on one of those four. Once you're there, and we can talk about the upper echelons of connecting, But it is fascinating. My husband, who you just met, natural-born introvert. Seems like a nice guy. He's a great guy.

He's over there. Apparently, you know, we smell a little marijuana coming through the van. Hopefully it's not him. We're going to have a great time at dinner. So when I first met him, I'm also a little older than him. Oh, scandalous. Well, he was still in high school. No, he was still in high school when I was working my first job after.

college. Oh, wow. Yeah. That is a little unusual. Wait a minute. It was five grades. Wow. Yeah. If you put it that way, but, you know, you had graduated college and he was in high school, that's the way some people might put it. So we met when he was, you know, maybe 25 and wait, in high school? No, no, I didn't know him in high school. Oh. I'm just saying when he was in high school, I had graduated college. Oh, I thought you, that's the age difference. I thought you dated him while he was in high school and you had graduated college. Oh, no, I'm not that bad. I thought that was a little weird. I just let it go. What is it? It's half your age plus seven. I was safe. Right. I was safe. Wow. You have no idea how much I just super judged you right there. I was just like,

and checking the right. But it could have been. Could have been. Not sure it was. Not sure it was. So when he got into business school, I'd already been to the same school he went to seven years earlier. He brought me to like the happy hour, and he's used to me interjecting and doing all. And I stood there like a mute. He's like, what's going on here? I'm like, I'm just your wife. I've already done this. These are your friends.

You introduced me. And he started to realize that there was something he had to do. And a lot of times people rely on all the resources they have around them to avoid. If it's not their comfortable place, they avoid it. But the truth is, everybody has, it's all a memory. It's very few people that I think are truly non-connectors. Yeah, non is like, I'm imagining somebody who sits at home and doesn't leave the house and hates friends.

Yeah, I think it's somebody who is very antisocial, distrusting, right? So very protective of themselves and their things. They don't see the value in these relationships, very socially isolated. And they don't, you know, not only do they not like people, they don't think that they need people. Really, there's not that many people out there that I think really fall into that cost. Yeah, I don't even think many of those people would listen to a program like this because half of the content would be not applicable. But I think a lot of people listening are probably emerging connectors. And emerging connectors, somebody who has some of the mindsets, they see the value,

they might not see their value, they might not know how to offer their value, they might be, you know, just kind of testing some of the waters and trying some things out. And that's kind of where my husband started, where he wasn't initiating conversations, he wasn't putting himself out there. You would never think he was antisocial. He would be there. He just wouldn't be talking. He just been... His furniture. Yeah, it was just part of the scenery. And then as he went through business school, you could start to see him becoming more of a responsive connector. So a responsive connector is somebody who will respond to requests. They're really happy to help and they're really happy to do things. And they, they want to, but they don't think of it themselves. It doesn't

come to this front of mind. It's not their way their mind thinks. Oh, if somebody asked me for something, sure, I'll do it. And when he was graduating business school, building his network, I said, well, he's like, well, I'm doing this. And this person connects me here. I'm like, well, what have you done for your network? And he's like, well, nothing, but I would do anything they'd ask. Right. Okay. So that's a responsive connector. They're waiting to be at. A lot of people are in there where they're like, oh, I would totally do that, but they're not being proactive in any way. They're not saying, well, what do you need or who would you like to meet or how can I help you? They're not asking the questions to try to figure out how they might be able to support somebody.

Right. They're not eliciting needs in any way and supplying that. But they would never turn anyone down if they had the ability to do. If they had the ability to help, they're likely to be very responsive to that. So they're not being curious, but they might be being a little bit more social. So they're in that responsive place. Okay. And then we get to the acting connector. So an acting connector is doing it.

And that might be as high as anybody needs to be. They are responding. They are initiating. They're being social and curious. They're asking for what they need. They're adding value. You know, things are happening, right? Exponential things are happening,

whether it's for you or for the people around you, things happen. And that's great. That's a great place to be. And for most people, that's as far as you need to get. sometimes we can take it up a notch. And as you take it up a notch, that's when you start to see more and more of the advantage. Because when people start to see you as a hub, right, I actually had them design with like kind of pictorial.

Very cool. And there's a woman here and a man there. Right? Very inclusive. Very inclusive. It starts to be that you're a hub and so that you then have more opportunity to help others. And you have more access to receive and to connect. and to create.

You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Michelle Laterman. We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air. And to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast.

And if you're listening to us on the Overcast Player for iOS, please click that little star next to the episode. It helps us out. Now for the conclusion of our episode with Michelle Laterman. You know, it's funny. The first thing you said was you have the ability to help a lot of other people because a lot of folks who are getting in first starting with the networking and connecting thing, they go, oh, I want to know a ton of people because I can get so many different hookups from all these different people.

And the first thing you said was you'll be able to help so many different people, which is a really good sign. Because I think a lot of folks don't realize that the, and I have not done, the math, maybe you have for the book. The ratio of me helping other people to me getting something in return is minimum 10 to 1. It's probably realistically like 25 to 1, help 25 people. One person comes back with something useful or not. And then like really good opportunities, it's more like 50 or 100 to 1 where you'll help 100 people. And then people will come back with stuff and it's like, great, thanks. Not super useful. I appreciate the sentiment. But then,

one percent of the time. It's like, oh my gosh, never would have got this opportunity, fell out of the sky, I can't believe this is happening, so grateful that I went for, that I helped all these other folks because I never would have found this gem. Because it came back to you. And the reason you don't know what the ratio is is because you are a connector, because you're not thinking about it in terms of numbers. I had never even thought about what the ratio is. I get a lot out of giving. And a connector gets a lot out of it. It's not so altruistic. It feels good to be valuable.

It feels good to help somebody. You know, I have a keynote where I say, how to get what you want. And we talk about why people do things. People are doing things for altruism most of the time. They're doing things, yes, because they feel good helping other people. But there is still something in it for them, that feeling. So I'm with you, right? You're out there giving.

And when you can give more. So now we're moving up to the higher echelon of the spectrum. So we have niche connectors, also sometimes called regional, super connectors and global super connectors. So niche slash regional, you say niche slash regional because it doesn't matter if I know a bunch of people in California, I might know a ton of podcasters and that's the niche, as opposed to the geographic. Exactly. So the niche could be geographic. My sister is a niche connector galore.

She is in an industry in New Jersey and everybody in that industry in New Jersey knows my sister. Now, she's starting to become a super connector because she's now working with a firm that's national. So now people in California. Of course. And other states also now know of my sister. But for many years, she was perfectly where she should be as a niche connector within that industry. So you could be a niche within a certain job function, right? So podcasters.

You could be a niche in like all HR people, geographic. It doesn't really matter what that. niche is. It's just that, oh, if you want to know somebody in there, this is the person. This is the person you need to know. Now, that's great, and you can be really valuable within that circle. But when we need something, it's not always within the area that we work in. And so when you become a super connector, it's really about the breadth and depth. So how broad, how different, right? And then how deep. Now I've got friends all over. I've got friends all up and down the hierarchy of an organization. I've got friends with different demographic, geographic, educational.

You name the difference, and I know people. And so sometimes I don't know who knows what, but I can still go out and say, hey, I'm looking for somebody who knows this. And you'll be surprised at who might come back. And Super Connector is somebody who encompasses a bunch of different niches then, sort of a wider circle? I don't even think they have to niche. Right. So you're, you might be, a niche and a super connector. But a super connector, it's not like you know everybody in a certain field. It's just you know everybody. Like I'm working with a publisher right now and they keep trying to introduce me to people. And I would say the dozen people they introduced me to, there hasn't been a single one didn't already know. And it's become a joke at this point.

They're like, I'm going to find somebody you don't know yet. Yeah. And they keep, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I know her. Oh, yeah, I know him. And actually it was somebody you know, Josh Spodick, They tried to introduce me to him. Oh, sure. Mike went to business school with him. Oh, interesting. I know him. Yeah.

You know, they introduced me to somebody. I'm like, she just joined my chapter of the NSA. I'm like, I know her. Yeah. So, and they're out in the West Coast and in Canada, and they're introducing me to people all over that I already know. That's the idea of a super connector that you're, you know, either know them or you know somebody who knows them. Sure. One or two degrees.

One or two degrees. On LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. And then a global super connector just takes you across your country's borders. So I have connections on multiple continents. Not a lot. Yeah.

Right? But, you know, I know somebody who I'm close to here who has all the connections in South America. So being connected to another connector who has that global hub enables you to have access to being a super connector. So the last sort of rung global super connector is something I dip my toes into the water of in the last three to four years maybe. and what's interesting is it's not this sort of linear growth. It's really an exponential curve where now I'm kind of like the opportunities, the amount of stuff that comes my way is just, I used to be bored, right?

And now I'm like saying no to all kinds of incredible stuff because I have to prioritize. Isn't that great? It's really nice. Yeah, it's a really nice. And of course, it's like a high quality problem. Yeah. Right. That's the.

natural advantage. And the idea of it being exponential, it continues to happen. Right. So it is exponential at every level as you go up. And it just, the more depth and the more breadth of your network, the more advantages you will find for yourself and for your network. Right. It's not just about what you can get or what I can get. What I found is, you know, yeah, sure, it's nice to be like, oh, impossible to get tickets for such and such. Cool, call in a favor. But I never do that. What I find more likely is someone goes, look, Jordan, I know this isn't your thing, but I really need to meet somebody who knows how to book a theater on Broadway. And there's just, I have no, and I'm like, hold on, I know the person who can totally do that. Let me call Wendy. And then suddenly it's like,

this is the guy who books all this Broadway theaters. That's the fun thing. It's, for me, it's like a puzzle. Yeah. I love kind of figuring out like, hmm, who would go with here? And you just start moving around the puzzle pieces. And it's, um, I always say my synapses start going as soon as I talk to somebody like, what do they need? How can they help? I know. It is fun because you find somebody will go, I can't believe you got my kid a job in the niche that they, like, we've been trying forever. We've sent in resume, and you may seem, because it looks like you just made a quick phone call and like suddenly they got a job offer and kind of that is what happened.

But I never thought I would ever be that person. Like my dad's an auto worker. My mom's a public school teacher from Detroit. Like I'm not the kind of guy who makes a quick call and gets anything done. right? You know, it's funny. You were saying earlier about how we grow up and how it impacts. Yeah. I was afraid of public speaking. It's now what I do for a living. Right. It's now what you do for a living. I mean, biggest fear absolutely was talking in front of a group of people. Like, why would anybody want to do that? You know? And I was the kid that had a chip on their shoulder. Like, I was so ready for a fight.

Because I... You fought a lot. You're like four foot nine. 10 and a quarter. All right, four for 10 to a quarter. As an adult. As an adult, I got into one or two physical fights. How'd that work out? Well, for me. Yeah.

All but scrappy. That sounds what's what it sounds like. But really, it's because I was mean. Oh, that's so funny. And so when I had this chip on my shoulder and kind of a lot of anger and, you know, didn't have the easiest upbringing and just always felt very defensive. things weren't going well. Yeah.

And things continued not to go well because that's how I was approaching life. And, you know, I know you haven't wanted to delve into the abundance chapter, but that for me is like the hardest mindset when you come from a place and grew up with scarcity to adopt that mindset, which is why I really loved, you know, that conversation we had around it and and some of the lessons that you got to have brought to the table. Well, let's dive in there because whenever I hear abundance, you know, one of the things that I, it almost is like one of those alarm bell words because it sort of sounds polyana like abundance believe hashtag believe you know it's like get out of here with that garbage i didn't

grow up that i could feel that way yeah there's no rose colored glasses in my childhood and for me abundance is not about the polyana it's not like everything's going to be great it's okay it might not be great now but i believe in the possibility of it not looking like this forever okay And so it is staying open to the possibility is one way for me to think about abundance. It is about there is enough. And for me, trust really enables abundance. So I trust that people aren't out to get me anymore. Okay.

Whereas I used to really feel that way. And I was the first person to be like, give me your manager. Oh, you're that person. I was that person. It was. Because I don't know. that fight felt really empowering to me. And that fight felt like at least I was getting some of those pent-up emotions out.

Right. And what I realized was it wasn't working for me. And it was a really big shift to feeling like closed off was really protective and safe. And I felt good about it to vulnerability. And vulnerability was like, God, that's the most awful word you can ever imagine. Sure. Until I realized that vulnerability isn't about weakness. It's about openness.

And that vulnerability can lead to credibility. And self-disclosure can lead to connection. And so when I started to embrace that, people responded to me differently. And so it doesn't mean that you still don't go to those places in your head of like fear and hold on to the table for a moment. But then you say, all right, I get where that's coming from. But here's where I want it to go. And that's the shift.

And it's not that you, you know, feel like, yes, everything's lovely. I trust the world. Right. That's kind of where I was, yeah. It's like the universe provides it. It's like, does it? No. Does the universe care about you?

No. I believe you control your own destiny. But I think you do that by thinking a certain way and acting a certain way. And that's what this is all about. And, you know, two of the things that stuck with me in our conversation was acknowledge the fear. It was like you gave us permission to acknowledge that it exists. And I think that's the first step is like you're not a bad person because you have a moment of doubt or fear or defensiveness or protectiveness or whatever it is that that scarcity brings you,

but it doesn't mean you have to stay there. And the other thing that you said that really resonated for me was don't judge yourself in relation to other people. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, I constantly struggle with that. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's, the struggle is real. And the struggle is real. I think the fact that it is a struggle is what enables the mindset. Because it was just so easy for you to think that way. You're in your little, you know, pixie desk cloud. It's not real. The antidote for me has actually been sort of counterintuitively to help a bunch of other people. I was just having lunch with James Altrujured today.

I don't know if you know who that is. And he has another podcast. And it's very similar in many ways to mine. We interview people where a lot of the guests are the same. And a lot of people will go, oh, you know, I know he's competition, but you should check out James interview with so-and-so. But James and I are friends. and we actually hook each other up with guests all the time. And he's a great dude.

I just did an interview out of his apartment earlier, like went to his comedy club. And like I will gladly send him business, guests, referrals, anything. And it helps me to not compare to him. And I think probably vice versa, because now I'm on his team instead of feeling the competition. And I've sort of had to trick my mind into helping people

where I normally might want to be like, oh, well, I actually want to get a leg up. And it's so much nicer to have that relationship. And more valuable. More valuable for everyone. That's the mindset of abundance. I always say I don't have any competitors. I have strategic partners.

And it's the idea that there's enough to go around. There are so many podcasts out there, but there's also so many listeners out there. And just because I listen to yours doesn't mean I'm not going to listen to somebody else's or vice versa. That took me a long time to realize that too. Yeah. Like the overlap between my audience, James Altitcher's audience, is significant, but that's okay because him and I are very, very different people and we have a healthy overlap in audience, but very rarely is someone going to go, yeah, I just listen to

the one. I don't need the other one. And if they do, it's fine. It wasn't because of the one that they stopped. It's because I'm either for them or I'm not, you know. But abundance is also great in that reverse because, hey, I like this podcast. If he likes this podcast, abundantly, I get more, right? So people like more, right, and more of the things that they like.

So when you are looking at somebody who is similar to you, you can think of it that way. And it's the idea that there's just, there's enough. Being a connector is also not just, doesn't just bring the benefits to your business and things like that, but actually you've found that connectors are healthier, happier, get better jobs, promotions, business. Let's dive into this a little, because I don't think many people think I'm going to live longer because I'm a great connection. sector. Yeah. So one of the things I do in the beginning of the book is kind of just proof a concept. Let me just prove to you that these relationships matter. In case you don't believe me, think of whatever you're working towards. And sometimes it is happiness or health or a job or a

business or a promotion or raise or whatever it might be. And there's statistics in all the ways that it helps. But when it comes to happiness and health, that's where it's surprising. There is a researcher out of Brigham Young University, Julian Holt-Lonstadt, I hope I'm pronouncing it. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a mouthful. And she found that social isolation has the same effect on mortality as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Oh, yuck. I mean, is that crazy?

Yeah. I mean, it literally affects your health when you don't have strong relationships in your life. It also affects your productivity at work. People that have strong work relationships will feel, I think it's a 50% increase in their productivity. and it's a predictor of happiness on the job. So just... Having friends at work, you will feel happier. We also know that 85% of jobs come through networking,

and I've seen this in a pie chart because I was giving a presentation also about connecting and networking at a university. And I looked up these stats, and I thought, my prediction was, man, so many people are going to get a job through a recruiter or, you know, one of those websites. I'm not supposed to name them because there's a, I've done that. But there's all these websites where you upload your resume and things like that. And except for very specific niches, they can be very ineffective.

There are better ones now, but they can be pretty tough. And here's the thing with that statistic. And I've been watching statistics for at least a decade at this point. It was around 60% when I started. So it's only going up. And originally it was about 60% for any level. And it was, I think, 90% at the executive level. Of course.

from networking. But now they're just kind of getting an overall statistic of 85% of any level, which is a huge jump from 60%. If you think about like the recruiters, that also can be from networking. Yeah, kind of the same. Which recruiter you get in with. You know, there's some really elite ones that my husband got in with when he got a CIO position at a really cool company. And, you know, there's there's networking in combination with multiple avenues. But if you think about it, those computers are looking at all the resumes now. You don't even get to a person. You don't even get to the desk, right?

Right. So how do you get to the desk? And then you have to look at those things, multiple avenues, to get to the same place. So who you know, who can mention your name, who can connect to that right recruiter, that right recruiter liking you enough to pitch you and speak well of you, it is the relationship, even if it's through a recruiter. I want to wrap with it practical, and this will go on the worksheet. We do worksheets for every episode, so this will be in there.

So if you're driving or if you're at the gym, you don't have to write this down. You can go to the show notes and get the worksheet for the episode. But this is a mindset mission, investing time in people. And it sounds a little bit like something that would be in our six-minute networking thing. So I may steal it and put it in there and give you credit for it. But in the meantime, I'd love it if you take us through this because I think a lot of people go, yeah, I've got to do that networking connection stuff. And they just kind of never do. or they, this goes on the shelf with get in shape, get married,

have kids, start family, whatever. Well, one of the things I try to do in the book, and in each of the mindset chapters is have some way for them to take it from the theoretical into their lives. And, you know, that's the mindset mission is, is how can I make this happen? So a lot of times the excuse for not connecting and not following up and not building relationships and focusing on it is I don't have the time.

And I've got too many things going on and I get it. I do too. So when we think about how do we invest time and how can we be efficient with that time, there's different ideas that I put forth in there. And I don't remember all of them off the top of my head, so I'll throw a few out. And you can tell me which ones are your favorites as well. One of the things that I love the most is a tip from one of our experts in the book, Dory Clark. And she has what I call Dory Dinners, where she will, hey, I can't have dinner with 20 people

that are always asking me. I don't eat out 20 days in a row. Sure. But instead, I'm going to invite all 20 of those people to a restaurant. front on the same night. Now, not only do I get to catch up with everybody in that one hour, two hour period of time, they all get to connect with each other. And I'm the hub. She's the super connector in the middle of all that making that happen. I've gone to a couple of Dori dinners, and I have made some great friends and some people who were on the other end of the table who I

didn't even get to talk to. I followed up with after and said, hey, I didn't get to talk to at Dory's dinner and ended up having great conversations and connections and things happening from there. So one of those things is thinking about how do I use my time efficiently. Think about the things that you already do. Are you working out? Are you walking a dog? Are you dropping your kids off at the playground having to stand on it? Can you do it with somebody else?

I used to meet up with my mentor who's a CEO of a company. And, you know, I would dress up and I would be all ready for this. And he'd be like, hey, you want to take a walk? And so he liked to walk. Not me, shoes. Well, then I started to learn. and that I dressed for my walks. And we would go, before the High Line, New York City was built, we tried to break in,

please stop us. But it was really fun. I'm going to walk on some subway tracks. We walked all around the city, and we would just catch up by walking. And he got his afternoon walk, and we got to catch up, and it was an efficient use of time. So thinking about the things that you do and who you can include in those things so that you can kind of make sure you're investing your time well. I love the idea of taking an activity you're already doing and meeting up with someone.

There's a lot of people that play sports together or go to the gym, but you don't necessarily think that you can turn that into some kind of meeting, which is actually, it could ruin the experience, but it could also, you just have to curate well, right? Yeah, and you have to think about what are those things that feel right. So I go to a gym, and there's a lot of people who could be business contacts at my gym, and I'm always in the class. And in the class, you get paired up with things. And so I might be like, okay, well, I'm going to go stand in that group.

today. And, you know, so you're going around the stations or whatever they call them. Circuit training. Circuit. Thank you. You can tell you're a real athlete. Yeah. You're really into it. Three days a week. You know, and I'll be flipping tires with somebody over there and you can have a few words. But what I do instead is, okay, I'm going to be sweaty, but right afterward we'll go get something to eat because I need to eat. I'll be starving after the gym. And they're already sweaty too. So I just extend that time a half hour and I get it all in. Yeah, I know a couple of people that will actually set up lots of different activities with people that they're already going to do. One of the things that people hate about doing something like six-minute networking, which we used to call level one, they'll go, I don't want to get responses from people and then have to go out to like 20 different coffees in a month. And the answer is, yeah, neither do I.

You should not do that. If you are commuting the same direction to work, offer to swing by and get somebody. And they're like, oh, my gosh, carpool, right? Or go work out during your lunch hour together or set up some sort of activity that you have together. Because there are so many experiences like this or the dory dinner type situation. And there are amazing ways to make yourself a hub for this. In fact, some people get really daring with it. I'm out in Silicon Valley.

So you'll see people who are like, who's going to burning men. Yeah, axe throwing. There is a lot of that. Or people will be like, hey, I don't know if you're into this, but they'll float out some sort of little alt idea. And the people who are sort of kind of into that same thing will slyly raise their hand. And you'll end up like, oh, we're all here to learn about psychedelics, you know? And it's kind of like you bond over something that's of mutual interest, but it actually creates some other really good connection that ends up being really great for everybody, either from business or performance. personal standpoint. I hired somebody from the dog park. Really? Really? Wow. I was at the dog park and you're

staying there and your dogs are playing and you know, you can be on your phone or you can chat with somebody who clearly has a common interest as you. And I met somebody. It turns out she was in my field. She was looking to expand what she needs. I needed more trainers. She's now on my team. Perfect. Yeah. I think there's a lot of what I would call Instagram time that's being wasted on Instagram. And you can do a lot of things such as some of these exercises that are going to be on the worksheet for this episode and also the things that we put into six-minute networking that are designed to take a few minutes per day because otherwise you will kill that time and then you will come home and go, but I don't have time to network and have time to create connections. I want to give you one more thing on

the invest time. So you have to eat every day. How many times are you eating at your desk? How many times are you running out and you're eating while you're on a call? One day a week, Make sure you eat with somebody, right? In your office, in the cafeteria, I don't care. Just don't sit at your desk every day for lunch. Think about those times that you're already inefficient, right? You can't really do that much when one hand is scooping it in. So Friday at 4 p.m.

Friday from 4 p.m. is the least productive hour of the work week. They've done research on this. Oh, yeah. I don't need the research. Yeah. We know. Got it. Right.

I, for me, post lunch, food digesting, brain comb. like forget it. So that's a really great time for me to send some emails. So have one little habit that you can do at a certain time of day or a certain day of the week. And just do it. Whether it's, I'm going to send five emails out. I'm going to make one phone call. I'm going to have one lunch. Pick one of those little things and just make a habit out of it. And you will see your relationships built. Yeah. It's that sort of one percent compounded type of setup. And we'll We'll outline any practicals that we had today during the worksheet. Thank you very much.

And the book will also link in the show notes. Great to be back. Great big thank you to Michelle. Been a friend of mine for a long time. Her book is definitely going to be worthwhile. She's just such a smart person, super sweet, really good at connecting, really good at making intros. Just I would say a natural at this, except I know that she's worked really hard for that,

and that might come across is a little insulting. But the book is called The Connectors Advantage, Seven Mindsetsets, to Grow Your Inters. influence and impact. Definitely worth a read there. We will link that in the show notes, as we always do. And if you want to know how I manage to book all these great people, I manage huge networks of folks, actually, personal and professional. And it's been the single biggest and greatest lever in my life to having, honestly, just being happy with those around me, leveling up, creating better business for myself and my family. I'm teaching you how to do that stuff, or at least the drills and exercises at a very basic level, takes a few minutes per day,

go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash course and grab six-minute networking. It's just a few minutes a day. No excuses. Anybody can do this. We've got super busy people doing this, and I just got done teaching it to a bunch of military special forces, and these guys are literally like dodging bullets over in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they're still managing to do it.

So, yeah, I know you're really busy with your new stuff, but get after it. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway. here from Michelle Laterman. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. By the way, there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube as well. This show is produced in association with Podcast 1,

and this episode was co-produced by Jason's super duper, super connector to Philippo and Jen Harbinger. Show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Remember, we rise by lifting others. And the fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't.

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