The Jordan Harbinger Show - 205: What to Do When Your Purpose Starts to Suck | Deep Dive

Episode Date: May 30, 2019

Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) joins us for this deep dive into how even the most driving purpose can wear you down, why meaning doesn't always align with happiness, and what you can do to recalibrate your purpose when you're discouraged by the obstacles you face in its pursuit. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://jordanharbinger.com/205 What We Discuss with Gabriel Mizrahi: Why meaning doesn't automatically create happiness, and happiness isn't required to create meaning. Why, if you're doing it right, pursuing your purpose should make you miserable from time to time. The key upsides to embracing the difficulty of your purpose and how it drives you toward your best work. How to focus on the micro over the macro in order to keep you connected to your purpose when you're having your doubts. Understanding that discipline is knowing when to think about certain issues; denial is refusing to think about them at all. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  We all have a love affair with the silver screen. Listen in as Chuck Bryant talks with your favorite people about their favorite movies on the Movie Crush podcast here! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DeFilippo. For a few years, I worked on Wall Street as an attorney, doing a job I was good at, but I didn't love. And as soon as I stumbled onto podcasting, I discovered what I'd like to think is my so-called purpose. I pursued that purpose for years, riding the initial honeymoon period high, buoyed by the joy of doing something I actually enjoyed. We're all here to find our purpose, whether it's a job that fulfills us, a calling that compels us or a craft that inspires us, we're all looking for those goals and experiences that give our lives true meaning. If we're willing to dedicate our lives to those meaningful experiences, we might turn them into our careers. And while I don't subscribe to the idea that every passion

should become a job or that our careers have to be our only source of meaning, finding purpose in your professional life is a powerful experience. When we do what we truly love, we set ourselves up for commitment, fulfillment, and wealth in all senses of the term. Unfortunately, We also set ourselves up for frustration, disillusionment, and heartache, because as soul-crushing as a meaningless job can be, a purposeful job can be even more painful. When your passion gets tough, your entire life, your choices, your values, your very sense of self, can suddenly take a hit. And unlike a typical job, a passion is much harder to compartmentalize and even harder

to give up. So how do you keep going when your purpose starts to suck? What do you do when the one thing that gives you meaning also makes you miserable? That's what we'll be exploring on this deep dive here today. Dealing with this is a skill set in and of itself and one of the most important skill sets that I could possibly teach you, along with, of course, relationship building and networking. If you're not taking six-minute networking, go grab that. It is free. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where that's at.

It is extremely powerful. It is why we are here right now doing this show in the way that you're hearing it. In the meantime, enjoy this episode with Gabe Mizrahi on what to do when your purpose starts to suck. I think a lot of people know that I started off on Wall Street doing this job. I was a lawyer and I didn't love it. It was fine. I enjoyed parts of it, whatever. I went to law school for a similar reason.

Such a diplomatic way to describe the career that you did not want to do it. Yeah, it was fine. It was fine. I liked parts of it. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of true, right? It wasn't for you. I liked my coworkers, you know?

I liked working in New York. And that's where you found out that you were really like interested in networking and relationship. Yeah, that's true. That was an important phase for you from what I understand. Definitely, yeah. And prior to that, I was in law school and I was learning about networking and relationships that then transitioned to this dating thing, which resulted in these conversations with friends at bars, which then resulted in starting a podcast. And so that's when I found, look, I'm really interested in broadcasting. I'm really interested in interviewing. I'm really interested in all of these different facets of getting people's stories and teaching and all that

stuff. And that turned out to be, and I love using this cliche, this turned out to be kind of my purpose or my calling or my main raison d'etre, I guess you could say. Yeah, your passion. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm tried so hard to avoid that word because it's overused. It's beaten to death. It's a little bit. Yeah, it's right. But that is what it is. It really is. It's purposeful and it's passionate work for you. It is, and I think about this a lot. I was just on a trip to a maximum security prison with a bunch of other entrepreneurs. And I know these guys and gals really well, but it's a little bit like you get this tug at your logical brain, I guess, because people are like, who are my age or younger are like, yeah, I've just raised $30 million for my 13th company. And I live, like, other buddy of mine's like, yeah, I have this massive supplement brand live in Panama. Like, you know, they're very, very wealthy people.

And I'm like, okay, well, we're probably equally smart, capable people. If I'd just focus and give away 10 more years of my life to this other business, I'd be super rich. And I'm like, but I like doing what I'm doing now. Yeah, this is the thing. So that's how I know that this is, that's one way that I know that this is my thing. You mean because you're willing to put in the time to build it, even though it's not going to make you live in Panama and have. tens of millions of dollars tomorrow.

Right. Like, yeah, like there's a, like, you know, talk to my buddy new moons, like utility companies in Thailand, basically. And you talk to these other guys and they're like, yeah, I have a $1.3 billion private equity fund and you're just like, wow. You know, that's incredible. But I'd rather do this, which is a little psycho when you put it in. Like, can you put these things next to each other?

It's crazy. It's like, what are you doing? You know? Well, that, but that's the power of doing something that means something. that mean something to you, right? That you're in a way, and it sounds so, this is also a bit cliche, but it's cliche because it's true that you would do it even if you weren't getting paid. Right. Like if tomorrow somehow this didn't let you any money, I know that you would still be on the phone talking to people being like, how do you, how do you read a book?

Right. Like, what did you do when you were at the bottom of your journey and you climbed back up? Like, that's part of your DNA. It's purposeful. Yeah. Yeah. So I think what you were probably driving at is like, okay, so, you know, you're you shifted from Wall Street where it was in purposeful, and you shifted into something really meaningful, and then what? But also, it's really hard and demanding, and that's kind of the problem, is people, often people will go, you know, when we had to switch from the old business to the new show, people were like, you know what, maybe you should just do something else.

You're really smart. You could do this lucrative other kind of business. You could do this online marketing. You could do that, da, da, da. You could be making $10 million a year or more, and I'm just like, nah. You know, no thanks. And it wasn't like out of fear. I don't want to do that.

It's unknown. It was like, no, I'm really liking this. And it's not like I can't put food on the table doing this. You know, there's a lot of amazing opportunity that comes from it. And we did an article about finding your purpose or finding your passion and that was really popular. And this is kind of the next beat on that, which is what happens when it gets hard? What happens when you wake up and you're like, my voice hurts, I'm tired. I don't want to do the show.

I'm going to read this stupid book. I don't want to read it. And I'm not even interested in this anymore. And I just want to go to Taco Bell and, like, fall asleep or whatever. You fall asleep on a lot of Taco Bell? I meant go to Taco Bell, get food, eat it, and then go home and fall asleep. Yeah, just to be clear. Not, like, walking through the drive-thru on foot after three beers and then, like, laying down to the parking lot.

For a second, I thought I was, like, getting a glimpse of what, like, sad, difficult job, Jordan. Just falling asleep in a taco. Pollo Loco, walking in, set your stuff down, put your head down, and go to sleep. I mean, I've definitely thought about it. I mean, we all fall in asleep. Yeah, I know a few weird places for sure.

But I think, yeah, absolutely. Like, what's so intense and important about this topic is that we are all here to find our purpose. And one of the things that you and I talked about in that other episode, and by the way, I highly recommend you guys go and read the previous article. And if you'd like, listen to the deep dive because it's very personal for both of us, I think,

because we've both made the transition from the corporate world into work we really care about. Right. And, you know, whether it's a job that fulfills you or a calling that compels you or a craft that inspires you, and whether it's your family or your friendships or your art or whatever, wherever you derive your sense of purpose, it doesn't matter. But if you're getting that source of meaning, there will always be a point where your passion, your calling, your purpose, whatever you want to call it, gets hard. It always gets hard at some point.

And the more intensely you pursue it, the harder it's going to get at some point. And I think what's really difficult for anybody is knowing that you are pursuing something you actually care about. And by doing that, setting yourself up for frustration, disillusionment, heartache, because a soul-crushing as a meaningless job can be, and I think we both felt that in our previous careers, you know, it's a part of your life. It isn't your life. and a purposeful job in many ways can be more painful. Exactly. Like, I know if I was still a lawyer right now, I'd be like, oh, man, I don't know about this work. I wasn't doing meaningful, I wasn't a public defender.

I wasn't a, or a prosecutor. I wasn't, like, an advocate for the downtrodden or pro-b-boh. I was doing, like, financial transaction. You're like white heel. Is that the right, white glove? White shoe. White shoe. Yeah.

White glove. White shoe film. Is it, it's always shoe and glove. It's not a heel. White glove, I think, is just like a fancy butler handing you something. Maybe. White glove means like it's very hands-on and like high touch. Maybe. Anyway.

But white shoe means... White shoe is what you were doing. I don't know. You trample people with that tender loving care. Did you ever wear a white shoe at the law firm now? Not as that. Yeah, you probably wouldn't... Maybe it's a little ghost shit by then.

Bold move to do as a young analyst. Anyway, continue. You were doing financial... So if I were still doing that, I'd probably be like, oh, man, I don't love this. I mean, I personally, I would be gone by now, but if Jordan Parallel Universe version, was still doing it, I probably wouldn't love it, but I'd be like, eh, okay, I get it. But I'm not like, I wouldn't be like, I'm going to be the best at this. I wouldn't.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't be passionate enough about it to be like, I'm going to be the best derivatives, blah, blah, blah, the best financial transaction, mortgage back security, whatever. I wouldn't care. So if somebody else is like, I'm the top litigator in the tri-state area, I'd be like, whatever, that's cool. But now with interviewing, podcasting, journalistic, pursuits or whatever. I'm like, this is, this has got it. This is important. This means something.

And it means a lot. And the problem is then you get people who come into the space and you have to, I have to sort of like throw cold water on my face because I'll have a friend of my like, Tom Bill, you come into the niche. And I'm like, wow, he's doing really well. And I have to be like, this is good for everyone. And I, I'm friends with him, so this is good. Right. Instead of being like, oh, competition, got to be ruthless. You know, it means more. So I think about it more. and also the downs are more miserable. Like if you lose, there were stories of people losing their business yesterday at the prison trip, and they were like, yeah, I'm going to start over, I'm going to pivot, I'm going to do something else.

I know when we had to switch to the new show, it was like loss of identity and like all this crazy, horrible things. But when someone gets fired from working at Deloitte and then they go to Accenture, they're probably like, wow, that was traumatizing. glad I'm, who landed on the feet. They're not like having nightmares. I'm still a consultant. I still have a connection to my skill. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Or they're like, ah, this is good. I'm going to start my own shop now. When your passion gets tough, your entire life, your choices, your values, your sense of self, it takes a hit. Right. It's not just your financial situation or your job title or like, oh, I really wish I had that business card. Exactly. That's what happens when work is just a part of your life, which is fine. But I think it's

important to recognize, yeah, when you pursue your purpose, it's a different game entirely. Your emotional life is different. So how do you keep going when your purpose starts to suck? Right. Like, what do you do when the one thing that gives you meaning also makes you miserable? Yeah. And the first thing I think we should start talking about today is like, knowing that purpose is not the same as happiness. Meaning, doing something meaningful does not automatically create joy. And happiness isn't required to create meaning. Meaning and happiness are two different concepts. I think that's really important.

I want to, it bears repeating. If you were doing something meaningful, it does not necessarily mean you're enjoying it every day. Like someone asked me yesterday, wow, you really love interviewing. I can just tell. I listen to the show. And I'm like, yeah, I do. I love it. I love creating the show.

And I go, it doesn't really feel like work. But then I kind of caught myself and I was like, no, there are so many times. that it feels like work. This doesn't feel like work, but when I'm like sitting on a plane lugging a 58-pound case of crap around with a backpack on and like... You're not like, this is so purposeful.

This is so purpose. So much meaning is being derived from this. Right. You know, or I'm like reading a book and going, oh, I shouldn't have booked this person. This is going to be craptacular. Or looking at the bedside table and there are four more books

that you have to get through so that you can do your interview is the right way. Right. It's Saturday night. I haven't taken a weekend forever and I've got to finish 18 hours of work and then roll into a five-day business trip. I'm not thinking about the meaning derived from said preparation. But I still do it. And I kind of, if someone said, what would you rather be doing right now? I'd be like, well, I'm doing this. I just don't like it. It's like, and probably... Wait, that is what you just articulated is such an important part of meaningful work. Like, no, I want.

wouldn't do anything else, but this sucks. Yeah. Is how a lot of purposeful people feel a lot of the time. Right. But you don't realize that when you're thinking about making the jump to pursue your purpose. Why? Because every blog and every podcast and every motivational porn YouTube video is like, make the leap. It's going to be awesome. Every day will be this like orgy of purpose. And it's like, no. Here you are on the beach. There's a common sort of an entrepreneur joke where we see that. motivation porn. No, no like successful entrepreneurs actually watch those stupid Instagram things. Except probably a handful of times to be like, these guys are ridiculous. Yeah, they're like,

what is this, moron? Yeah. And we see that there's like always a cliche couple of things. One is a guy standing on a beach with his arms in the air like, yes. And then another one is a dude's feet with like a laptop out and looking at the ocean. And so people look at that and they're like, whoa, working on the beach. And we always kind of joke like, oh, he took the paper. picture where he gets to go look at the water for five minutes during his beach vacation because he's got to go back inside soon and finish his job. Totally. Yeah. At best, he has to like go back to the small room and the hostel and like do fulfill all the drop supporters. Right. Hammer out those customer service requests or whatever yell at his team. And then like the laptop on the legs picture where I was like,

look at this poor SOB. Check in his email at the beach because he's got no time. You know, he's got a 3,000 incoming request. And so it means something different to somebody who's sort of been in the game. But, But yeah, people go, oh, well, what would you do different? Yeah, I'd be doing this, but I don't like it. Yeah, I do this. But in Greece. I'd be reading this crappy, terrible book and using a dead highlighter on a beach. You know, it's just ridiculous.

So the meaning is very, very divorced from the happiness part. It is. I mean, they're closely related and they do line up from time to time. And I don't think we're saying that you can't pursue meaningful work and be happy. That's not the case. No. But there isn't an automatic relationship. between the two. It's not like one guarantees the other. In fact, I would say that's quite the

opposite, because pursuing something meaningful usually means pursuing something difficult. And if you're going to pursue something difficult, it's going to be painful at some point because meaning is hard to come by. And it's correlated with the amount of energy required to master the craft or to fulfill the goal or to service that customer in the way that you want to service them. Like, solving a difficult problem or pursuing a gnarly goal sounds romantic. But on a day-to-day level. It's usually pretty daunting and demanding. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Gabriel Mizrahi, on this deep dive. We'll be right back.

Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash subscribe. Subscribing to the show is absolutely free. It just means that you get all of the latest episodes in your podcast player as they're released so you don't miss a single thing. Now back to our deep dive with Gabriel Mizrahi.

This is what I always assume writers are talking about. You ever read those old novels where, or like memoirs of, I don't know, probably Bukowski or something. It's like, writing is horrible. It's a disease. You know, and you're just like, geez, who would ever do this? Right. That's what they're talking about, I think. Yes.

They're like, the reason I go to this cafe and drink this coffee and, like, drink myself into a stupor by 9 a.m. So I can type on this typewriter or whatever they're doing for their latest novel. novel is because it's meaningful. They're not like, I just love being a completely dysfunctional human being. And like, they're medicating because this is the only thing that they feel like is worth doing. Totally. Absolutely. Yeah, why also they do?

By the way, great way to perpetuate the myth of the drunken writer at the typewriter. I know, right? But it is a trope because it's true. Bukowski is the perfect example. But, like, yeah, every good writer, at least, will tell you that the glamour of writing comes down to, like, painstakingly obsessing over words and sentences, four weeks on end, like maybe months, usually years. Like, it's not glamorous. No.

It's glamorous to be at your book party. It's glamorous to be interviewed because you wrote a book. Those things are fun. But there are years usually of development that are really unpleasant. Yeah. I was actually talking with Mark Manson, author of Solitaire of Not Getting a Fuck in his new book. Everything is fucked. Of course, we're rolling with that theme.

And we're friends. And so I ask him all the time, like, hey, how's the book with Will Smith going and stuff? And he's like, well, I mean, aside from the crippling anxiety and the fact that I'm working with somebody that has impossibly high standards and is, like, richer than all of my friends and family combined and, like, you know, expect all this crazy. I'm like, oh, okay. So it's not just like every day kicking it with Will Smith and, like, being fun. Right. He's like, no, not really. I mean, he's loving it, right?

but not because of the wild thrill ride that is every amazing day of typing out this book. It's a unique experience that's life-changing and interesting and fascinating, but being told, hey, what are you doing tomorrow? Can you fly to the Cayman Islands and work really hard and cancel everything else that you had to do? Because Will Smith has three days off, and this is like your job now. Exciting, but maybe not always super, super fun. Not at all. If you pursue your purpose, you will be miserable.

from time to time. And if you're doing it right, you probably should be in the sense that if you pursue your purpose fully, you're going to expose yourself to experiences that produce unhappiness a lot of the time. So that could be criticism, that could be feedback, that could be rejection. Usually it will be all of those things. It will be all of those things at some point. But usually it's just the technical difficulty of the thing that you're trying to master. You're trying to find out how to be the best interviewer possible.

trying to articulate somebody's vague life lessons into a really beautiful book. Those are hard enterprises to do. And if they were easy, a lot of people would do them and everyone would be happy. Right. But they're not. Everyone is not happy because everyone is not trying to do them and everyone can't do them because the craft is difficult. So it's almost like passion and happiness are negatively correlated a lot of the time. And I know that's a buzzkill and I'm not saying that you can't be happy and do purposeful work.

That's not what we're saying. But the more passionate you are about your purpose, the more likely it is that that purpose will produce unhappiness at some point. And if it doesn't, or if you refuse to believe that, then I think we start to perpetuate that myth. That purpose automatically equals happiness. And it's that myth that makes us so upset when the craft gets hard. Because we're not prepared to push through when the purposeful work becomes difficult. Yeah, yeah, good point. So like the more you want to win, the more it hurts to lose, right?

your expectations are high for yourself for the project. You've got all these expectations of like, I want to be there now. You want to rush the process. Or maybe you don't even know what the next steps are. It's kind of the story of my life right now where it's like, what do you want to do? And I'm like, I have all these options.

Cool. How are you going to do? Which one are you going to pick? Oh, I don't know. How are you going to get to that one? Well, I don't know. The roadmap is pretty unclear for each of this, especially with creative pursuits.

You know, you talk to creative people. when you're like, what do you think my path would be? And they're like, well, it's creative. So, like, kind of there isn't really a clear path. And you're just like, damn. Right. You know, even... There's no template. There's no template. And the higher you get on whatever hierarchy, the less the template even really exists. Like, people will go, well, okay, if you wanted to be like the best interviewer in the world, probably you'd work for a news station, to be a reporter, you'd move up, you'd get your little column, then you'd get maybe your radio show, and then you'd get maybe your TV show.

And then dot, dot, you're kind of like Katie Couric in 94, where she's like the face of this thing or Brian from, what is it, ABC News or something. Brian Williams from ABC News or NBC. NBC, I think it's NBC. And then it's like, but then after that, it's like, well, how do you get from there to like what Larry King is doing? Well, I don't know. You just, you become dot, dot, dot, dot, cultural icon. I mean, what's that path look like?

Is that necessary? Or is that something that happens as a result of doing these other things? You don't really even know. They're stress related with that as well. And that causes you to resent the fact that you chose the occupation in the first place, too, right? And that's great for, that applies, I think, to people who are creating apps and everything. It's just different. It's a different kind of WTF situation.

Meaning is not about happiness. It's about significance. And if you pursue purposeful work, you will find significance at some level. You will find it more meaningful than whatever other job you didn't love or whatever other situation you left. That's why people pursue their purpose, at least when they try to turn it into their jobs. They're trying to connect with that significance in their professional lives. But it won't make you happy. What does make you happy is a topic, a totally separate topic.

And we talk about it here and there. I mean, that's a very personal thing. It's about relationships and mindsets and psychology. It's about a lot of things. but it's just important to decouple those two concepts, and it's also important to remember that purpose is not easy. The idea that purpose will be easier than the other thing that wasn't purposeful is part of the problem, because then we set ourselves up to be disappointed when the really meaningful work

doesn't make it easier to get out of bed or to get excited or to push through when things are hard. I was reading an interview recently with Stacey Schiff, who's a really famous biographer. She writes these beautiful biographies, which is really difficult work at that level. It's basically years of combing through archives, looking through documents that nobody else wants to look at. Oh, yeah. Like a Walter Isaacson type situation. I'm always like, how do you do that? Why do you do that? This is a thousand-page biography of a guy that lived 400 years ago or more. Like what? It's insane. How? Why? Pain, the pain. The pain of it and the loneliness and the alienation.

And the, like, I mean, to me that is one of the, like, best examples of needle in a haystack. And look, I'm imagining some guy sitting, or gal, sitting in a basement, musty, of a public library in a remote town, because they're the ones that have somewhere maybe in this pile of, like, card catalog-y type looking volumes. Yep. There's maybe some original writing, da-da-da-da. Maybe. Maybe. And probably not. Yeah.

Or it's like a copy of something that's not available because it's in the Vatican archives, which are inaccessible. But you waited 14 years on the waiting list to, like, get access to this thing. So you're just kind of going there, fingers crossed, and you're going to spend maybe four to five months looking through everything that you can. Yep, because nobody else will, because that's what sets you apart, because that is what will make your biography, the best biography. I mean, it's really intense, lonely work. Yeah. Very purposeful for the people who pursue it, but really difficult. And in an interview with her, she talked, she said this one thing that I will never forget. She said, there are delicious days. There are not delicious weeks. Yeah,

yikes. So it took me a long time to accept that reality. It can be a tough pill to swallow, especially if you left a career you didn't love to pursue one you really do. It's hard to wrap your head around the idea that this might not make you, this might not be easier just because it's more meaningful to you. Discovering that your passion doesn't feel any easier can be pretty scary, I think. And it creates a lot of disturbing thoughts that, that frankly, they chip away at your desire to keep going, because then you're starting to think about things like, you know, but I'm doing what I love, right? Like, if I can't enjoy this. Like, oh, crap, I don't love this all the time. So it's either not the right thing for me, which is terrifying. Terrifying. Because then, like,

your other options are not on the table. Right. So you're thinking, crap, I've got to sort of, or maybe I just can't enjoy it. Maybe I'm broken and I can't enjoy anything. I can't enjoy anything, which isn't even scarier, though. Right. Like, not that I just haven't found it, it doesn't exist because I'm effed up. I'm incapable of, yeah, totally. And if my passion is this hard, is it really my purpose? Like, shouldn't it just never? What about that thing that someone's grandpa said one day, find something you love and you'll never work a day in your life? Why doesn't that apply to me? Yeah, I haven't found that. So obviously, I'm wrong. I mean, these are all normal thoughts. I want to reiterate that. I'm sure you would agree with me. And I do. I want to, I want to share what I wish I had heard sooner,

which is that these are all normal thoughts. But they're built on a misconception, and the misconception is that purpose should be easy all the time. It's not. In almost every case, purpose, pursuing your purpose, is brutally hard. And any craft done well requires a ton of hard work, determination, sacrifice, all the things we know. Because it means more to you.

It means more to you than a traditional job. And because it means more, your purpose will hook into your heart. hope, your happiness, your sense of self-worth. Yeah, identity. Your identity, it will dictate the quality of your life. And it will, at least in my case, the more you pursue it, it will reveal the depths of your ignorance, how hard the craft really is about how much it requires. So it's also really joyful and really, like there's a euphoria and a joy and like this indescribable satisfaction that you can get from that kind of work. But that comes not just with, but because, of the difficulty of the craft.

Yeah, yeah, and I find that the problem is, I've tried to do things like, oh, I'm just going to do interviews where, like, I'm not really that worried about the outcome or, like, I'm not, the stakes aren't that high. And I did that for a long time. But the problem is, you don't, yeah, in the moment you might even enjoy it more

because you're like, oh, this is just an enjoyable conversation between me and this person. I don't have to worry about my prep notes and not have to worry about it. But then you go, probably not my best work. Right? And so then you find yourself going, crap. When I put it on easy mode, it's more fun, but then it's not really like the challenge that's there

that makes the work the best is gone. And that's kind of annoying. Yeah, that's a really real thing you just share. Yeah. Like if you go on easy mode, you can take a little pressure off yourself, but then you rob yourself of the, the opportunity, the challenge really, to find out how good this can be when I want it to. It's probably like how I work out. I go to the gym and I'm like, I'm going to do this.

I'm not going to go super full heavy. And then I'm going to do this. And then I'm going to be done by then. I'm going to be done. But somebody who's into fitness, not me, not this guy, will go to the gym. And it's like basically half the time I see these guys that are at these crossfit boxes and stuff. They're kind of like, how close can I get to just. absolutely projectile vomiting or like not able to walk out of here. That's the kind of workout I want.

And I'm like, no, not me. But that's what they're there for. That's their thing. That's their thing. Yeah, yeah. And that's why they are there. And then, of course, they're like, come work out with us. And I was like, why would I ever do that? Yeah. Let's get coffee after you're done if you can stand up straight and want get yourself to Starbucks. And also what you're saying is that, you know, CrossFit occupies a different place in your life than what it does for them, which we'll get into in a moment. I'm sure, yeah. Basically, just to like bottom line this, I think it's important to embrace the difficulty of your purpose if you're going to keep going.

Not to fight it and not to worry that your whole life is going to fall apart when it gets hard, but to embrace the difficulty. And that gives you a few benefits. And just to quickly just appreciate some of them is one of them, it gives you a ton of gratitude for the good days. Yeah. And there will be good days. There's nothing like living with the suck of something to make you appreciate the days that

are fun and inspiring and productive. And if a purpose were not hard, we really wouldn't understand how precious the good days are. I'm sure when you have like, when you're in flow on a great interview, you're like, oh, I know how good this feels because I've been in all those subpar interviews or I've gone through the muck of like doing the hard prep to get to this point. It's only by that comparison that you really understand how good the good days really are. Exactly, yeah.

It also gives you a ton of appreciation for the craft. And I think this one's even more important if you're going to stick with purposeful work because, you know, people who find their purpose easy most of the time, I think usually don't have a true grasp of what the craft entails. I didn't have a grasp of what the craft of writing entailed for the first few years. I was just so ignorant about how hard it is because I was just splashing around in the shallows. Yeah, you're like, I can spell and have good grammar. Yeah, and I can like string together sentence and sounds okay, you know, but it's like, hang on, but when you find, when you realize how difficult it is, when it starts to get painful, is usually when you are coming up against the sophistication of what you're trying to do. And that, that appreciation becomes part of why you pursue the purpose. Because you're like, oh, I get it.

I'm trying to do something that's really hard and meaningful and special. Yeah. But I didn't know that until it got hard. that it's hard, I get it. Right. It's like seven years in, I tell the story a bunch on the show, Robert Green was like, oh, you're pretty good at this. And I was like, me?

You know, and then I was really reinvigorated with it, and I was like, oh, I'm going to like do more work. Because the reason it was good, that episode, was because I had read the whole book. And so that upped my game. I was like, well, I'm not going to read the whole book for everyone, but I'm going to work on the show more. And then later on it was like, well, wait a minute.

Okay, the truth, the uncomfortable truth is reading the book, makes the show better every single time. So I was like, I just have to now do that. And then I went through this other phase where it was like, well, my friend's filming each episode, that's ridiculous. That's like above and beyond. But yeah, you know, when I do film it, it's better because we're there and we're bringing our A game and war on camera.

And I was like, crap, the uncomfortable truth is I got to do these all in person and film all the time. And I've got to read the book. And I've got to like, and then more recently I'm like, you know, I would, these were more fun when I was funnier, and that was when I was prepped less because I was more off the cuff, and I was like, well, I can't really do less prep, which was a suggestion I got from a lot of people that were probably not really that great interviewing per se, or like not in-depth in interviewers. And they're like, I know you, I knew you wouldn't like that answer. So now I'm like, okay, well, what I'm going to do is get like an improv and comedy coach and be like, no, I need to be super, super well prepared, but then also be able to just like let that stuff live in one part of my brain. then also be spontaneous and fun in this other part of my brain at the same time. And so the uncomfortable truth, again, is I have to work on that skill. Because people who are just kind of naturally funny, they have done such a crap ton of work at that.

They're not just, or they're either on fire and they can only do it occasionally, but the people who are doing it consistently, they're really practiced. They're so prepared that they could be spontaneous. Right. They're so prepared that it's the stuff that they're prepared for is living in this, like, automated part of their brain and the funny stuff is happening because they're super present. That requires a ton of training. Totally. And I'm getting that training now.

So it's like there's all of these, it's kind of like every time you come full circle and you're like, I'm good, you really have to, you've got to throw another five pound plate on there. And at the end of that process or at the end of each of those phases, you were coming into a better understanding of what it means to be a broadcaster. Like to be a true broadcaster, which is that I have to be on all the time. I have to be prepared as much as possible for every episode. And I have to be on camera.

And I have to be spontaneous. And I have to be connected. And I have to be present. It's like it's hard to understand the totality of those things until you really confront that producing a great interview is really hard. Right. Oh, and by the way, you have to be able to do that. When you haven't slept much, you're tired. You feel like you're probably getting kind of sick.

You're super hungry. The caffeine hasn't kicked in yet. And you have to pee. Which is me right now. All of those things. And it gives you resilience ultimately at the end of day, which is also a topic in and of itself. But resilience doesn't come when purpose is easy. It gets developed.

That grit gets developed when things are hard. I think we should talk a little bit about how to, very tactically, how to keep going when things are hard. Of course. The practical part that people actually want to learn. Yeah. I mean, no, I think we're talking about a lot of practical stuff. But there is an element of this which is just like, okay, but how do I deal with it today? Like they found this today because they're procrastinating because they're in a difficult moment of their purpose and they're like, oh, maybe this will be a good distraction that I can pretend is relevant. And by the way, now it's going to be relevant.

Well, yeah, totally. Because when a purpose becomes hard, it becomes hard on two levels. On a day-to-day level, it gets difficult to execute, to focus, to produce good work. That's the difficulty of the craft. Whatever the craft is, whether it's writing or making a product or building an app, whatever it is. That level of difficulty comes from the technical. aspect of pursuing your passion. And overcoming it is just about consistency and learning and improving, just putting in hours. That's the set of concerns. That layer of difficulty is the set of concerns that leads to thoughts like, I don't know what I'm doing right now, or I don't like the work right now, or I'm lost, or I'm confused. But on a broader level, purpose also gets difficult on this other layer, which is that it becomes difficult to commit to keep going, to stay connected to your mission over time. And that's the difficulty of the journey, not the craft, but the journey. And I think that challenge is a lot harder to deal with because it involves like deeper issues

of talent and self-worth and like love and passion and whether I have those things. Right. It's like, oh, well, do I even have what it takes to get to the top of the game? Exactly. Or am I just not going to do, is this, is this all there is? Is this all there is? Did I make a mistake? Like, did I waste enough? Did I waste my time? Exactly. And unsurprisingly, that difficulty is what leads a lot of people to quit ultimately. On the worst day is pursuing your passion gets difficult on both of those levels. So it's hard in the craft and it's hard on the level of the journey. And on those days, it can be almost impossible to keep going. Those are the days when you're like literally throwing your lap. top across the room or you're running away to a bar or perhaps a Taco Bell to have to take a nap to take a nap you're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Gabriel Mizrahi we'll be right back after this thanks for listening and supporting the show your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard visit jordan harbinger.com slash deals and don't

forget that worksheet for today's episode that link is in the show notes at jordan harbinger.com slash podcast. And if you're listening to us on the Overcast Player, please click that little star next to the episode. It really helps us out. Now for the conclusion of our deep dive with Gabriel Mizrahi. You once told me that you used to call those your post office days. Yes, the post office days. I don't have them as much anymore. You don't have this much anymore. But I definitely have a real thing. Yeah, that's a real thing. So the post office days were, especially with the old company, they happened all the time, where it was like, I'd go, you know what, this sucks so much that I would rather work, sorry, U.S. Postal Service, I would rather get a job at a place like the post office

where my check is guaranteed and I just do the same thing and I'm not so effing stressed all the time and I'm not sitting on a bed because I have one room to do all of my work in and there's no room for a desk so I'm working from my bed for 18 hours, seven days in a row with like no life. You know, those are my post office days. And I would literally drive down the road or walk down the road and I'd see construction workers and I was like, they're in the sun, they're going to be done at four. Yeah, they had to get up early, but they know what they're going to be doing tomorrow. They probably have health insurance. That's dismal for me. Those were horrible. I still have those off days. Now though, like, Jen will cheer me up or something, you know, or like I'll call a friend

who's also an entrepreneur and they'll be like, yeah, dude, everyone has these, you know. And it's usually the days where it's like you've got to be doing legal stuff and then you're you gotta pay your taxes and then also you're dealing with a bunch of accounting and then you've got a thing that canceled that you were looking forward to and then you're also really tired from the night before like you still have those down days but i've just had so many that i realize that they just pass it's not the thing that you're feeling in the moment right then is not like the true scenario that's not the true circumstance of your life that's really important that's another principle, I think we can keep in mind that, like, even though in some ways we're saying that purpose

gets harder the more you do it, in some ways it also gets easier because you know that there are ebbs and flows to those feelings. Yeah, like every day where I'm like, man, I'm not looking forward to any of the interviews that I'm doing. I'm not looking forward to any of the prep that I'm doing. And I go, huh, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, what have I eaten today? Okay, not a whole lot. Did I go to the, when's the last time I went to the gym? Okay, it's been like four days. how did I sleep last night? Okay. Let me, before I panic and worry about my career being stagnant and over, I'm going to go work out. Yeah. And then I'm going to take a nap. And then I wake up and I'm like, let's crack at this prep. Right. I'm ready. Right. Or I'm like, let's play

frickin' Xbox. Go to bed and start over. And then you have some perspective. I'm good. Yeah. You know, I'm good. So, but before 10, 15 years ago, I was like, nope, I just made the wrong life choice and I'm going to end up miserable and broke. Yeah, I had a bad day, so it must be, oh, it's over. Yeah, my life is over. So just to come back to this thing of like, what do you do today? How do you make this tactical? Well, in moments when your purpose gets so hard that it gets hard to keep going, a really powerful technique is to focus on the micro over the macro. And what we mean by that is when you focus on what is in front of you right now, so that could be, I have to read this book for this interview. I have to book that guest for next month. I have to learn this piece of code.

clearly just revealed my ignorance about coding because I don't know how to code, but I, you know, whatever you have to learn or do or prepare, whatever that very specific tactical thing is, when you do that, you force yourself to simply do the next thing and to ignore the more terrifying questions about the bigger picture. Right. Instead of worrying if you have enough to make it as an author, you finish that paragraph. Instead of questioning whether, you know, the little house you're building, like the extension of your house will look okay. Once you finish, you just sand that piece of wood. Right.

What that does, when you deliberately go small in that way, you create these concrete tasks, that short circuit, the paralysis that comes with questioning all of these big things about purpose. That doesn't mean that those questions are irrelevant. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask them. It just means that if your goal is to learn how to keep going,

then sometimes the best thing is just to keep going. Right. Like force yourself to execute, even if you don't feel like it, And you can compartmentalize that feeling a little bit. Totally. And why does that work? Well, for one thing, going micro forces you to execute even when you don't feel like it, which of course would be your goal if you weren't experiencing all that doubt and misery.

Right. So by forcing yourself just to do what's in front of you, you short circuit the voice that says, it isn't worthwhile. You don't have enough. You're too tired or whatever. You jump straight to the end game. Yeah. You can't finish this marathon.

Look, I'm just going to finish the next while. It's going to finish it. And then we'll find out. Yeah. Maybe I'll walk the rest of it. That's fine. It's an option. But I'll run the next mile. And then you end up finishing. That's a really clever hack. And it's so simple. And sometimes the fact that it's so simple is why we doubt that it can work. But it does work in a lot of cases. The other reason, which you just pointed out, is that growing micro forces you to compartmentalize. So it's interesting. The brain, the human brain, has a really hard time doing two significant things at once. Like, either it can despair over the bigger picture or it can focus on doing a specific task.

well as it can. The deeper you go into the task in front of you, the harder it is for your brain to ruminate on these questions that keep you stuck, the bigger questions about your purpose. Like, you'll always be free to return to those questions later if you want to, but you'll probably think a lot differently about them if you've done more of the work for that day. Yeah. So compartmentalization, which is really just a fancy word, I think, for like discipline, for discipline thinking, will allow you to continue your work even when it gets hard. If you focus on the micro. But the biggest benefit, and I think the most significant one, is that going micro often reconnects you to your purpose. And this is kind of, it's a paradox because you think,

like, if I have questions, big questions about my purpose, then I should question them and I should try to find answers to them for me to stay connected to what I really want to do. But sometimes it's not about answering the questions. It's about continuing to do the work that gives you that connection to your purpose again. When you commit to doing the work in front of you, even when you're not sure if it's worth it, you usually rekindle your relationship to your goal, even a little bit. Yeah.

It's a lot harder to despair about writing when you're writing. Yeah, it's really hard for me to think about, I don't know, Sam Harris has more downloads than me. Like, that's not that comment of a quip. But I'll be like, I don't enjoy this. I know all my interviews are going to be horrible. If I'm listening to an audiobook and taking notes, like, I'm just doing that.

And then often that will just pass. And I remember there's a lot of times Well I'll make a conscious choice to do that Because I'm like you know I can spend the next hour Thinking about how I'm probably not gonna ever be You know Have my own CNN show or something

Which is I have no basis for that Other than That's how I feel at that time Sure Or I can like do the next thing that I have For sure have to do Right Which is like take notes for this next interview

Yeah Or like go for a walk and make these phone calls Yep And one choice is clearly more productive than the other one. Because I'm not going to come up with a satisfactory answer. There's got to be people that focus on the micro all the time and then never think about these big questions. And that's a problem. That's a problem. And we have to talk about that because there is a line and I think it's a fine line, a shifting line, between discipline and denial. Yeah. So is there ever a time

when we do need to question the bigger picture? You know, like can bearing yourself in bearing yourself in the micro ever become a way of just sticking your head in the sand. Right. It is. Not wanting to confront the truth. And the answer is yes. But it's a tricky thing because they can look a lot like each other. Yeah.

And sometimes you can be very disciplined one day and do your work. And sometimes you can be what looks like very disciplined another day and be totally ignorant of what you need to be asking yourself. One way that I've gotten around this, and I got this from entrepreneur friends of mine, and particularly Noah Kagan of Sumo. and Absumo was he said, make an annual plan. And he wasn't really, I don't know if he was trying to get me to reconnect to my purpose or whatever, but he's like, make an annual plan and then just stick to it. And I thought, well, that's really dumb, simple advice. But I thought, you know what?

I've never done that because I worked with an old company and they would change everything every five minutes. And then when we started the new one, we didn't have the ability to be like, here's all these things we'd like to do. It was like, get, plug the holes in the ship so we can make money, right? And survive. But this year, we made one in January. And it was like, cool.

am I going to write a book this year? No. Am I going to do more YouTube? Yes. So the interviews will go on YouTube. So that means we have to learn videography. We have to get the film kit set up. We have to take lessons on this and da-da-da-da. And so we plan everything out. New websites coming soon. New this, new that. Then we went, that's a lot of stuff. Okay, cool. We're going to have to check in on that every week. Now when someone's like, hey, my agent will call and go, how are we doing on the book front? And I go, it's not going to happen until next year. I've already planned out the whole year. And they're like, all right, I don't love that. but fine. So I don't have to spend excess of cognitive resources going, but there's this shiny

object over there. Now, sure, if something really compelling happens and it's like, hey, would you want to shoot a pilot for a TV series, you need to block off a week to do it? Sure, why not? You can still be surprised. I can still do it and be surprised and focus on something like that. However, I'm not going to go, huh, let's change the goals around because I had three hours this weekend at an airport lounge and I decided to change everything. And frankly, I worked with marketers in the past and other people that I've kind of in part fired because they do that. They'll go, new plan, we're selling this instead, new plan, we're going to have this kind of funnel. And I'm like, okay, if you're going to be distracted by that, you're going to distract

the whole team and you're never going to get anything of note done. So it's not a fit. You got to go. And that's painful. But I see this problem happening a lot. And there is that element of being very tempted to get a new app to plan for your workflow instead of like doing a freaking practice run or doing the prep work that you have to do. You'll get an app to organize your notes better. So I decide when I do that, when I catch myself doing that, of course the annual plan helps, the weekly planning meetings that we have here on the team helps. But if I decide to do that, I'll go, cool, I can look at productivity apps at 7 p.m.

when I'm done with work, when we're watching Netflix, I can fart around on my iPad. And instead of mindlessly playing Candy Crush or watching Vice News, yeah, I'll look for productivity apps. That's when I allow myself the luxury of getting caught up in the details and sort of circle-jurking on some minutiae that doesn't move the ball forward. Right? And most of the time, I go, yeah, no really new good apps out there. I'm just going to stick with Google Docs, thanks.

Right? because it is very easy and very tempting to go, I've got all this really complex stuff to do. But you know what? They updated this email thing. Why don't I migrate all my email from Google Suite to da-da-da? Like, it's really tempting to do that. And I see entrepreneurs and business owners doing this all the time.

So what you're talking about is kind of like creating a space and a time to question certain things so that the rest of the time you know that you are just there to execute. Right. So discipline is knowing when to think about certain issues. Denial is refusing to think about them at all. Yes. So when you choose to finish your day's work by focusing on the tasks in front of you, you're being disciplined. When you only focus on your work and you refuse to reflect on the bigger questions you

might have about your purpose and your journey, then you might be slipping into denial. Agree. And one of the things that really caused us to do the annual plan was, I really didn't want to do it. And it wasn't like, oh, this is a waste of time. It was, wow, I have to prioritize my entire year.

That's kind of terrifying. That's kind of daunting, yeah. Because then I've got to kind of get married to these ideas of what I'm going to do. And then I have to think about all these really hard things that need and must be done. And then I have to face the idea that, like, some things are going to take longer than a year.

And the idea that I'm going to have to not pursue other things that I really want to do because there just isn't enough time. I just didn't want to face that reality. So I finally sat down and was like, that just means I really have to do this. And I did it, and it was awesome and powerful. There's a lot of freedom in somebody going, I've got this great thing you should do. And I go, it's not on the annual plan. So I'm going to say no. I don't even have to think about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I see that. And I wonder if maybe another thing that was kind of hard about it was like knowing that if you were disciplined in that way, you wouldn't have a reason to avoid doing the work every other moment of your life.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Because you're like, I'm going to quarantine those big questions to this practice. It's an annual thing and a weekly check-in, and that's it. Right. That's our time to talk about the bigger stuff. Without that in place, you might have been thinking about that every day. You might have been thinking about it every couple hours.

That might have been easier or felt easier to you. It is. And you second-guess yourself. And you go, well, I want to do this instead. But then when you've committed in January and your team's been working on stuff, you go, well, it's not, this is what we've decided to do. There isn't any, there's no backseason on this stuff. Unless it's like, okay, this just didn't work. It didn't work.

It's a different thing. It's R.O.I. negative. It's flushing money down the toilet. We're stopping it. But I'm not going to, like, throw a bunch of stuff in there and be like, eh, just pause this other thing because it's less exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Making execution a commitment on the day to day and then carving out a practice or a time. Yes. whether it's like an hour a week or it's an annual goal setting thing or whatever to reflect on the bigger picture. I think that's really important. Another important thing is, and this one's really obvious, but I think it's really worth exploring,

is that sometimes we just have to remember why we're pursuing our purpose in the first place. In the early days of pursuing your purpose, you're so connected to the mission. Right. Because you just left whatever you were doing before. It's the early days. you're thinking about it constantly. So your exuberance about that will sustain you through the difficulty of the early days. For me, at least, that was kind of like a fuel that protected me against frustration and boredom.

But over time, that excitement naturally wanes. You lose that buffer, I think. You don't have as much raw hope and pure enthusiasm, because as we keep talking about, it gets hard, right? And the day-to-day grind of the goal can usually eclipse the big. reason that you were pursuing the goal in the first place. And once that happens, it's, it's really crucial to take a step back and remember why you're pursuing your purpose in the first place. I think if I asked you that right now, you would take a moment and you would just come back to a very simple thing that I've seen in you and I see in your show, which is like, I really need to

understand why people do what they do. I love dissecting the playbooks of people who are at the top of their field. That is your purpose. That is what binds you to this show. That simple childlike obsession with a deeper mission is at the core of every good purpose. But it gets obscured. I think it gets covered over. It gets lost, really, in the day-to-day of everything. And the harder it gets, the more it gets lost. And you hear about this from successful people all the time where they'll start some example would be like they start some restaurant and then other restaurants, owners are like, wow, your restaurant's so successful. And they're like, oh, yeah, I do online marketing.

And then they shift to online marketing for restaurants. And they're doing it and they're really successful. And they're making all this money. And they're like, I hate this. And everyone's like, what are you talking about? Why? And they're like, I liked cooking food and having people eat it and like being around that environment.

And now I'm like in an office with 17 team members doing like IP contracts and visual marketing assets for someone's new Yelp launch. Like, F this. How did I end up here? It's like you ended up here because you pursued the thing you cared about. But once it became successful, it took you further away from that core. Right. That's hard.

I remember hearing, and this might be a bad example in this day and age, but it's actually really meaningful one. I remember hearing that several years ago, Mark Zuckerberg would try to carve out, I want to say an hour, but I doubt it was an hour. But he would try to carve out time every day to do a little coding. Oh, yeah. Zuckerberg is not coding today. No. He's dealing with some more serious issues that he has to deal with as the CEO of this incredibly complicated company.

But I'd say what got him into Facebook in the first place was that he loved coding. He was an engineer. But Zuckerberg is not an engineer anymore. He's a CEO. Right. And I'm sure he has his own ways of staying connected to it. He talks a lot in interviews and public statements about connecting up the world. And you can poke holes in that and you can question whether he means it and you can question

whether Facebook is really still doing what it was designed to do originally. But I bet, I'd be willing to bet that part of the reason he talks about that so much is almost to remind himself of what he's here to do. Because if he didn't have a connection to that purpose, to that mission, why would you deal with all of the pain and frustration other than the fact that he can't walk away, which is a powerful motivator? And there's a lot of money at stake, obviously. These are huge parts of the equation.

But really, on a day-to-day level, if that guy were not committed or didn't at least choose to be committed to that deeper mission, the whole thing would fall apart. Or he would be miserable every second of the day, which who knows, maybe he is. It's possible. It's possible. But he would be more miserable if he weren't. You see a lot of Silicon Valley type people doing things like, oh, I'm going to cure every disease. Well, that's great and lofty and good PR. But I think what it also is is, hey, this whole connecting the world thing and carving down time every data code, it's not really doing so much.

And eventually people won't care about any of this, but they'll probably always remember the guy who cured every disease. And that's far more interesting than trying to acquire, like, WhatsApp data. Yeah. So maybe I'll focus on that a couple hours a week and, like, achieve a new purpose or new meaning. And when you lose sight of your deeper motivation, you can always return to that activity. or other activities that will help reconnect you. One, that I do a lot is talk to somebody and be like, okay, what's going on? Am I crazy?

Am I a big failure? You know, make me feel good about myself. I would argue, Jordan, that it's not just about making me feel better. It's about giving somebody some space to articulate out loud what it is, why it is that they're doing what they do. We've had those conversations. Like, when we feel disillusioned or stuck, I think we used to like, sit with those feelings and just internalize them. Oh yeah. Because you'd be, you know, maybe for good reasons. You're like, well, this isn't other people's job. This is my job.

You know, but of course that just makes it worse. Like I began, in my case, I began to doubt whether I was really cut out to pursue my passion, all because I assume that I had to stay connected to my purpose on my own. But over time, you start to realize that it's really helpful. There's also a part of this that could be indulgent and can take you away from your work, and that's a different thing. But if you're doing it in the right way, in a disciplined way, it's really helpful to discuss your work with someone else. And when you do that, when you articulate your motivation for doing something to someone else, you're able to revive that motivation for yourself.

You have to almost hear it out loud and have somebody reflect it back to you, to mirror it back to you when you can't mirror it back to yourself. So now when you get lost or frustrated, I notice that you do book time with a friend. I try to do the same. And you ask them for some space to explore your reasons for doing it because you need to remember. You need to remember. The other thing you can do, which is,

another version of this is to write about it. And writing about it is kind of the same as talking to a friend, but the difference is that the hard surface you're coming up against is not another human being, but the page. And in some ways, it can be more helpful because you can sort of have some stream of consciousness sort of writing experience and you can talk yourself through it, but you also create an objective record of your motivations and reasons, which you can come back to. Some people find this like really, really helpful. They have a journal. Sometimes they even have certain documents.

that almost like a mission statement for themselves. It's kind of nice because a conversation can fade into memory, but a piece of writing can stay. You can reread it over time. And ultimately what that does is it lets you track your story. And that narrative of why you decided to do something in the first place is what can get lost when the purpose gets hard. When you lose your connection to your purpose, it's usually because you've lost sight of the larger narrative. Your story of why you decided to pursue. your purpose. And it's important to see how that story is unfolding when things get tough.

And of course, what we can do when things start to unravel, or if they start to unravel, is we can recalibrate our purpose as well. One of the ways in which we can recalibrate our purpose is to pivot. We've talked about this on the show before. You might need to do something else that's sort of tangentially related to this. And you and I were talking pre-show. We've done whole shows about this. But you see media companies do it. You see app companies. and tech companies do it, but a lot of people do it in their own career where they're like, you know, I love the food thing and I love the writing thing, but it's just not working for me. And it's like, okay, well, maybe you need to write fiction and you need to do other things

with food that create that same level of. Maybe you don't need to be a food blogger. Right. Or maybe you like eating a bunch of different stuff and making content about it, but maybe YouTube is not really where it's going to be for you. Like, you don't like the video element. You like eating and talking about it. Maybe you do need to be a food blogger instead of a videographer or a YouTuber, right? So there's these little shifts that you can have. Yeah, pivoting in your purpose means that you're connected to the right source of meaning, but you're going about it in the wrong way. Right. So you love writing and you want to say something original, but you're not meant to write a novel. That's okay. You're meant to

edit a magazine or to write a newsletter in your company or to explore your writing in another form. and that can actually get you closer to your purpose by stepping away from the form that you were so attached to. You can also just not do it anymore. That's also not. Yeah, I mean, I know quitting is like not cool these days because you got to push through everything. Hashtag hustle, hashtag, never give up, hashtag follow your passion, right? But sometimes you should not do that at all. And sometimes those facetious hashtags are garbage.

I'm glad you're bringing it up because I know it's a bit of a buzzkill to talk about this. And that's why so few people talk about it. but it would be irresponsible not to talk about it, because if you pursue a purpose that isn't correct, it's not right for you for whatever reason, that is no way to live a life. It doesn't make sense to produce a ton of unhappiness or to stick with an idea of what your purpose is instead of finding out what your real purpose is. That doesn't serve anybody. And honestly, so many of the episodes that you've produced with amazing people, they've talked a lot about quitting.

Yes. They've talked about, yeah, I had to put that down. And the moment I put it down, I opened up space and time in my life to find out what else I should be doing. And that's how I found the product I was supposed to build. Exactly. They wouldn't have found it if they didn't give it up. Another thing we can do is shift priority. And I know a lot of people talk about this where they'll be like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm going to quit podcasting if I don't start making money doing it.

I'm like, how long you've been doing it? Oh, like six months or a year or 10 years, whatever. And I'm like, maybe it doesn't. doesn't need to be your job. Maybe this is a hobby that pays for one of your vacations each year and that vacation is to the podcast movement or whatever, right? Podfest. You know, that's, maybe it's your cool hobby that you kind of wish was your occupation, but right now, you're stressing because you can't pay rent. You've got 18 different podcasts because you need the revenue and you're consulting, but you don't like that because you got a do-da-da-da.

Maybe you should teach other people how to do the tech setup and you should work for the hosting company or whatever and you should do this other thing that you also enjoy and stop ruining your favorite thing by trying to make it your job, right? If you love creating videos and putting them up on YouTube, it doesn't mean you have to be an influencer and make your living off ad sense or revenue or come up with an info product to sustain you. It might just be something you do that you're known for that is a hobby and doesn't end up paying for your mortgage. Again, most people don't like to talk about that because it sounds a lot like quitting. And it's unsexy. But it's unsexy.

But it's actually quite the opposite, because if you shift the priority of your purpose, you often find a way to hang on to it. You protect it by giving it the correct place in your life. Exactly. You preserve the joy that the project brought you by not forcing it to become something that it should. Exactly. So where does that leave us? I mean, look, at the end of the day, it's a really important part of pursuing your purpose

to embrace that it is not always easy, that it doesn't automatically make you happy. Right. And as unsubstant, it's a really important part of pursuing your purpose to embrace. Right. And as unsexy and sad as it can be, the more you pursue a purpose that really means something to you, the more you are going to find it difficult and confusing and demoralizing. But once you realize that that's part of the package, something else opens up. And that's something you don't hear a lot about.

And that's that struggle exists whether you pursue meaningful work or not. Meaningful work is often the hardest of all. But after 15 years basically of doing this, I know that you've found that the best strategy is not to deny or minimize the pain of it, but to make meaning out of it. And when you find significance in the struggle, and I know this has been true for me, when you find significance in the struggle, you actually create an opportunity to create even more significance if you use it to teach you more about what you're trying to do and why. That's right. Meditate on that, Grasshoppers. Gabriel, thank you so much. My pleasure.

Hope that was useful for everyone. I loved that conversation. And a great big thank you to Gabriel Masrahi for that as well. His work is always stellar and making me sound smarter than I really am online. I always appreciate that. If you want to know how I can have all these great relationships in my life, like Gabriel and all the other people that you hear on the show, as well as my personal life. Honestly, there's a lot of overlap, and this has been a life-changing endeavor for me. I made a course about how I manage these relationships, reach out to people. The course is free, and it's at jordanharbinger.com slash course. It takes just a few minutes a day. That's why we call it six-minute networking. So go at it, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course.

Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Gabe Mizrahi on this deep dive. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. There's a video of this interview on our YouTube at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. This show is produced in association with Podcast One, and this episode was co-produced by Jason Producing Our Purpose DePhilippo and Jen Harbinger. Show notes and worksheets are by Robert Fogarty. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful. That should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you

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