The Jordan Harbinger Show - 258: Dennis Rodman | The Worm Is Back

Episode Date: October 1, 2019

Dennis Rodman (@dennisrodman) (aka The Worm) is one of the greatest rebounders ever to play professional basketball, with five NBA championships under his belt. He's arguably just as well-known for his off-court antics, and his resume includes stints as an author, an actor, a reality star, a wrestler, and an unofficial diplomat to North Korea. What We Discuss with Dennis Rodman: How Dennis went from being a shy, neglected kid to a people-pleasing watch thief to a man who values independence and naysayer-defying personal expression above all else. Why the hustle of living as a homeless 19-year-old was more appealing than eating mustard sandwiches in the projects with his family. The volatile relationship Dennis has had with the media over the years, and how he decides who's worthy of his trust (and who's not) these days. Why, given his passing interest in basketball until a late growth spurt made him a contender, Dennis' self-taught and unique approach to world-class rebounding is particularly surprising. Marrying himself, being an early ally to the LBGTQ community, the pros and cons of fame, and risky birthday toasts to Kim Jong-un in North Korea. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://jordanharbinger.com/258 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Let the storytelling GoCar be your sightseeing tour guide in San Francisco, Barcelona, San Diego, Lisbon, and Madrid! Find out more at GoCar Tours! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiruality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. That was a time where a countryflated on trying to go on the other side of the road. I thought about that. We all have the option and the freedom to do anything we want. Like they say, curiosity, kill the cat. If you want to go there, go there. If you don't want to go there.

I'd be proud of it. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with producer Jason DeFilippo. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Today, a basketball player with five championship rings among many other awards, who dated Madonna, married himself before

joining the NBA Hall of Fame, and has made news headlines for his wild antics, which include heading to North Korea to hang out with Kim Jong-un. I'm not even sure where to start with today's guest, The Worm, Mr. Dennis Rodman. This is a guy who quit basketball in high school when he was 5 foot 9, that's shorter than me. Hits a growth spurt to 6-8 while homeless, by the way, decides to play, and becomes one of the greatest players of all time. His origin story, though, is a different case entirely. His sisters dressed him up as a woman, as kids, he was bullied all the time. Today's show is a tale of one of the most iconic and unique characters in America. It's a story of hardship and heartbreak, of opportunity and of victory. I mean, what can I

say it's Dennis Rodman. Let's get into it. By the way, how did I meet Dennis Rodman? Through my network, and I'm teaching you how to network for both personal and professional reasons. Get after it. Six-minute networking is at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course, and it's free. By the way, most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course and the newsletter, so come join us, and you'll be in great company. In the meantime, here is Dennis Rodman. Enjoy this. This one's a little crazy. But yeah, I grew up watching you play for Detroit and we would play, we all had Rodman jerseys and boy scouts and we would play basketball after the meeting. Where did you live out there, actually? I lived in Bloomfield Hills.

Oh, okay. I lived in Troy. Right there, right there by a tail 12 mall. Yeah. Right there, right down the street. Okay. What was your favorite restaurant while you were out there? Genopolis. Genopolis.

That's on 12 mile. 12 mile. Yeah. So you said in your book, don't let what other people think decide who you are. And it sounds like you decided to more or less live your life by that. Right. I have to. I think a lot of people do that now.

In 21st century, a lot of people try to have independent minds. They try to speak freely and try to have a different reason and different voice around the world now. So basically, everybody's trying to pay attention what they're doing and not what's going around the world. So I've been doing this for like 30 years. Now it's coming to the light. Now, the fact that people actually fall in that leave for some reason.

Well, I think now people are, they're wise of the idea, especially people who are in the spot lay. that there's money to be made by controlling other people's behavior. I mean, that's what social media does. But, I mean, you know Dave Chappelle. I mean, he bounced. And when you ask him about that story, he tells you about iceberg slim. You ever see that, Cliff?

No. Talks about iceberg slim and how he used to control women as a Pimp. And he's like, I can't say it directly, but here's a story about how pimps operate. And that's why I went to Africa. And it's like, you have to be free, but it's not something that comes naturally to most of us, I think. Oh, it does. Like you said, Instagram and social media give people a lot of outlets to try to voice their opinion

because you hide behind technology. And if you speak as far as visual, it's a different story because people change the frame of thoughts when you talk face-to-face. When you're doing technology, it's easy to do one thing. Put a total image out there, and people seem to believe it until they see a face. When you have the ability to reach the people,

what you've got to reach them to them in a very sincere way and very visual way and a very caring way, it's very difficult to really communicate with people doing internet and social media. But I guess that's the way the world works now. I know you're up in your social media. People can't see it right now, but there's like eight plus people in here staring at us right now and taking videos and pictures, counting the person who's making sure you don't overdue it was on NAD. Keep me alive. That's right.

Dennis Robben, influencer. Hashtagin. I know you said you don't remember much of your childhood and father left when you were three. you yourself said, I became very needy and very shy. Obviously, that's changed. I changed a lot. Right. But you still got the sunglasses.

Always. What's up with the sunglasses? I love them, man. You know, sometimes it has the effect that you don't really want to see people the way they are. What do you mean by that? I learned this the hard way years ago, you know, I saw the wear sunglasses because I've seen too many people lie in my face. So wearing sunglasses, it just showed me from how to look at people how they really are.

so I really don't try to communicate visual-wise. I can hear this all day long. But, you know, most of the time when people talk to you face-to-face, pretty much it's some bullshit. So if you hear people that's talking about caring and stuff like that, you can understand that. But 99% of the time when people talk to you about business, about this or that,

most of the time they try to get information from you or they're trying to sit there, try to refuel from you, and try to use that against you. And the world has been coming like that these days because a lot of people sitting there will take ideas from you now and spin your face, And the next day, they said they try to be your friend. And that's the way the world's working now.

You know, people don't really care about people no more. It's about individual shit now. When did you come to that realization? That's been up for a long time. Yeah. I'm just now having a voice of reason that people actually listen to me now because no one's ever heard me speak like that. People hear me playing basketball.

People hear me going on a whole career. People hear me doing all this other stuff. But people don't ever hear me speak out to anything. So now it's more like, okay, great. Now it's time for me to come out and say real cool shit. that people can relate to. And I think since I build that whole image about me being free, independent, doing this, doing that, people said, let's see the voice of all what he's been doing all these years.

Now people are saying, wow, we never knew that, Dennis, that you do all this, that you say all this. That you had any depth. Yeah. They had any depth. They thought that just what this wild party guy. Yeah. Well, you do have that reputation, too. Right.

Yeah. Back in the day, you started off as a janitor at an airport, and this whole sort of incident where you decided to grab some watches, you just gave them away to your friends. You just don't watch us from some, I don't know, Hudson News or whatever, and you gave them away to your friends. That wasn't you needed the money. That wasn't anything but it sounded like maybe people pleasing a little bit. That's pretty much what it was. Yeah. You know, like I said, when you don't have friends in the project of the ghetto and you try to sit and make people happy, it's more like, okay, great. And you see other people doing things that you want to do. And you just like to see

monkey do Mikey. You know, you see some monkeys doing something you want to engage. And so basically that what happened to me, I got caught up in that whole system there. It's supposed to say they're doing it. Why can I do it? So I did it. Stoves and watch it. I think I sold like 50, 55. Never came to my mind to sell them.

You know, I just want to get my way to my friends in school. So I did that, gave me away in school. Next thing, you know, knock on the door, cops, you know, da, da, dot. I didn't expect that, you know, being dumb and naive, I didn't know they had cameras in the airport. At the airport. You know, I thought it's like, okay, this free shit. Okay, let's take them all. Okay, great.

They're not going to notice. They're not going to notice. They said dumb criminals, right? I'm one of them. So they took me in jail, and luckily for me, they went to my high school, and they got all the watches back. Oh, that's so lucky because they dropped the charges. I wonder why they dropped the charges. Yeah.

Did that scare the crap out of you? That would scare me being in jail at that age. Oh, well, jail. I was in airport jail. Not the real jail. I was at airport jail. They took me all the airport jail. And I was in a small jail with this other guy.

I think I was like 18. You see the images that luck shot, frayed little kid right there. Like, they never been in jail in trouble. You know, a sudden, just lost now. And then when I got out of the jail, my mother didn't have no money get me out. She said, well, you got to stay in there because I have no money.

I'm like, shit. You know, so I'm in jail for a few days. She scrapped for some money, sold some things, da-da-da-da. As I was walking up to the courthouse, the steps, the lawyer came down and they dropped the charges. And then after that, when they dropped the charges, my mother, we were driving home. My mother said, well, I'm going to have to put you out

because she's not working. take that dumb shit don't go to jail drop the charges got to be putting the streets okay great yeah your mom was like all right you're out

she throws you out you're sleeping in the park behind the 7-11 sleeping with at friends places you're literally homeless at this point what was that time like for you I thought it was cool but it wasn't cool at that time

but I started to get so used to it you know I get up do some like needy chores and stuff like that like a wash cars for like two or three bucks go to seven of them pack some boxes I was sort of trash that stuff like that for five bucks.

And I was like getting used to it. I was like happy. I was fuck. I was happy to sell. I could see my friends every day, go play ball every day. My advice right there. How old were you at that time? 19.

19. Did you think, all right, I'm not going to be homeless forever. So this is fine. I didn't see that part. You didn't see that part? I couldn't think that far. You thought maybe this is my life from here out. Well, I thought the fact that when I watched sports, I watch track and field.

And every time I watch track and field, I would see guys running like the hurdles or like doing a hundred-yard dance like that and I would go outside after watch that I go outside and try to emulate that so you're doing sprints in the 7-11 parking lot that pretty much so where I went I said start trying to emulate what I saw on TV and stuff I just started visualizing I was like I wish I can do that and I just go out and do it and never came in my mind that I was going to come out to be like this well I don't think that yeah I don't think anybody could envision that at that point right what were you trying to do become a track and field athlete or something like that

I just liked what they was doing you know that seemed fun to do since I was like a hyper kid anyway, so I like to run all the time. Like most kids do, like to run and just be crazy. But I had to run and do something to accomplishing, like, sports-wise. I love sports. I didn't watch basketball at all. You didn't even watch basketball. You watch football.

Wow. Do you think your experience being homeless makes it easier for you to relate to other people going through a hard time? I think it's easy for me to relate because I was when I was living in a project and when you don't have food on a table and you have to sit there and wonder why we eat pork and beans and mayonnaise sandwiches and a mustard sandwich and bush like that. See, might be put your hand in a sandwich. understand eat the fucking thing, right? What the hell? So, so shit like that. So that's how I look at it. I look at this. It's so fortunate I can sit there and think about those times and get emotional about it and like be happy. I'm in this position, but I still got that whole history of why I became Dennis Robin because, hey, I can go deal with those people. I can go live with these people all day long, you know, you know, I could drop the fucking image. I could drop the fucking lifestyle. I can drop the fucking startup. I can go back over there and be just right at home. So, so. So, so. Simple shit.

Yeah, mustard sandwich beginnings. Pretty much right. I know. I think it was Phil Jackson, former Bulls coach, who said you have a masochistic streak, and there's a bit of tape where you said, I'm just trying to get people to like me. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. How long was that a factor in your life?

Like, how long did you live like that to get other people to like you? I just live a course. Think about that pretty much all the time. You know, it's more like I'm not acceptable to people because I'm different, because I'm doing things are different. people portray me to be this different person and I built this image because I want people to like me

which I didn't. I just did it because I wanted to and I told some people I said I built this image in a way where people can say oh that's Dennis you know that's just Dennis you know they don't trip on and say

oh my God he did this no they say oh that's just Dennis now when you see what I was doing then and now people actually like me because I'm actually real my heart is always up here people, they see that. They see right through it.

Wow, this is cool. But it's like, you know, when I see things today, people now, when they start doing things, they don't think about what's up. They think about, okay, great, this is exciting. Next thing you know, on the flip side, oh my God, I fucked up, I fucked up.

What should I do to try to get my image back? I already built that shit all the way now. And people expect me, okay, great, that's just tennis. People got to start sitting there try to take care of their image. I didn't. I built that all of this. Okay, great.

And the things I was doing wasn't bad. It was just out the norm at that time. And now since time has changed, now we're here. You see people fucking up. And then all of a sudden now, people are sitting here taking that fucking mistake that people are doing and driving home so hard for the person that did the mistake, they don't know what the fuck they do. They're lost now.

The whole world's against them right now. You're talking about like how the media punishes. The media is going to punish people. I quit because they want that thrill. It's okay, great. Ah, we got you. We got you. And then those same people are sitting and doing that to people that.

day, they always sit there, kiss their ass when they're doing something good. That's fucked up. Yeah. I was like, okay, great. So I were sunk like because of that bullshit. Right. They're your friend one day, and then all of a sudden, boom. So, you know, it's just very difficult to really have a conversation with people today, especially in the media. We're independent media, so hopefully we're not a part of that whole thing. Right.

How do you know who to trust then? Because I know you got Darren, who's been with you for, is it, 23, 24 years now or something like that? He's known you. Right. How do you decide who to trust? I mean, it seems like you're in a independent. position where a lot of people want something from you, whether it's also good for you or not, is beside the point. How do you know who to pick before 23 years? I mean, you know he's good, but what about new people that you meet?

I don't ever think about that. Whatever people want to offer me today, great. You know, my loyalty is not to people that I meet today. My lordity is to me to try to figure out what's the direction I'm going now. People pay me money to do certain things and stuff like that. Friends are cool, you know. Back then it's more like I was in that party more the whole time. You know, I didn't give a fuck.

I didn't give a damn what's going. I'm just like, hey, let's go do this. Let's go do this. You know, so when the party is over, you'll know who's who. Yeah. And even then, I didn't know who's who. Yeah, it seems like you probably, by now, you got enough friends, right? You don't need to go out and make new friends at a hotel or whatever.

Like the Mondraan? Yeah, for example. Filmed with the Mondrian. Thanks to the Mondrian Hotel, where nobody's making any friends. I know you've said you're never focused on anything early in life, right? Obviously, you turn that around. I mean, you focus on basketball, you focus on everything else. I'm wondering how that turned around because, I mean, the racism, the trauma that you experienced

in Durant, Oklahoma before you played college ball, it seems like it's enough to bother anyone. And it's actually traumatizing to hear how people treated you back then in the 30 for 30. I was checking that out. Do you think that might have contributed to those feelings that you had about maybe I don't belong anywhere? No, I really didn't look at color at all when I went to Durand, Oklahoma University. I really look at color. I didn't look at black, white, whatever. I just thought people with people, and we got along. And even today, I really don't look at color. Look what's happening down in El Paso. Look what's happening in Memphis. Look what's happening around the world. You know, Hispanic people are saying them blaming Donald Trump for some bullshit for some bullshit for some bullshit for some bullshit these fuckers back. These guys retaliating all my god damn. For me, I don't know. This is Hispanic that's delivering a lot of goodbyes for the world, especially in America. We need these immigrants. But Donald Trump makes some states, we should shut these fuckers back. These guys retaliating. Oh, my God, damn. For me, I don't. I don't. I don't care who you are. You know, North Korea, South Korea, Asia, Japan, Africa, this, that's Australia.

I don't care. I just want to relate to everybody, get along with everybody. We're all human beings. It don't matter what the situation with politics, I don't care. I just want to fit in. I know that nobody really taught you how to rebound or score or anything. You kind of learned that, but where? Where did you learn how to play if you didn't play until college?

You just learn in college? I just learned when I was, like I said, in the projects. Yeah. my house every day. I used to watch my mother and my stuff father sell coat every day. The people in the project, I kept going, I would get my tennis, you put them on my shoulder. I'll run down to the park. I'll jump the fence. I love doing that. Jump the fence. Then run to the park with all other guys stuff. I put my shoes on. They saw playing ball. That's all learned how to play. So nobody ever taught you like, hear all these ball handling drills. Like we must have got in college

and you're like, well, these other guys, they got a certain way of doing things and I'm just playing streetball. I was just starting to play ball. I didn't know what drills or layups and stuff like I mean, I just played ball. Was basketball the first thing you remember being good at? No. I mean, that makes sense, right? Because if you grow up in those rough circumstances, maybe not a whole lot of sunshine.

Yeah, you can't be good at Jacks. At what, Jacks? You can't be good at Jacks. You know, oh, one, two, three, two. You can't be good at that. That's not going anywhere. So it's probably a game out these days. It's probably like an Olympic game.

Yeah, the money and professional Jacks these days. No, it sucks. Hales in comparison to the area, yeah. When you were on the Pistons, almost no ego, right? You're jumping into the stands, you're jumping in, throwing the ball back to teammates.

There's none of this, like, camera hog and ball hog and nothing. You're just doing the work. In fact, work that's kind of dirty doesn't necessarily lead to big contracts and it doesn't necessarily lead to a lot of glory and led to this bad boys mentality

and us against the world era. Is it true you never drank when you were in Detroit? People say that. No, I never drank at all. I didn't start drinking until I was 33. John Sally,

I think it was, said you'd go to a club and order milk. Well, I did. We're talking skin milk, We're talking? No, it's milk. Now it's almond milk because you got that paper. Almond milk, it's kind of dangerous for you right now.

It is? Well, I didn't know that. Look it up. I'll do that after the show. What's dangerous about almond milk? I have no clue. Okay. It's like Camel milk, right?

You ever twin caramel milk? Camel milk? I don't know. I hope not. It's supposed to be helpful for you. Well, I'll have to look at it. Somebody make a note. Let me know my almond milk is bad for you.

It's bad for you. Isaiah Thomas describes you as sweet and innocent. It was charming. Of course he was talking about the Pistons days. I don't know if you guys are still tight, but you're really loved in Detroit from the sound of it. Do you think that was one of the happiest times in your life? That's a very good time in my life. I went to a system where they actually really cared about you, especially Detroit.

The people need for it. Good people, man. They have your back. They're very hardworking. And I'm feeling real well with those guys. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dennis Rodman. We'll be right back after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show.

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It means that you get all of the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player so you don't miss a single thing. And now back to our show with Dennis Rodman. It was you that said the highlight of my life was the championship. I just love making people happy. And there's this clip of you getting the defensive player of the year award and crying. And I love that clip of you because it's such an authentic reaction. I feel like everybody who gets an award like that kind of wants to react like that, but they have to be tough.

It just feels so good because I feel like the fact that I worked so hard. And I just like, whoa, I got this whole thing, this defensive player at the year award. It's like, I did something. And people appreciate it. You know, I was like the Oscar. Oh, my God, this is awesome, man. Like, whoa. And it's like, you know, I said, I wanted it so bad because I worked my ass off to get this

what award, you know, not to scoring, not to assist, not to, you know, whatever. I just wanted that one. Yeah. I think that people really appreciate for me for that because I wasn't trying to be the star. I was just trying to just fit in. Yeah. Right. You just said you just wanted to fit in.

And that seems to be like a running theme in your life, actually. And the fact that you wanted that award so bad, was there a award so bad? was there a part of you that felt like you didn't want that attention, but the award was fine? Yeah, I didn't want the intention. I want the award. As I say, you know, when I'm playing basketball, you know, I had this motto. I said, you know what? I got three hours to really make people happy. Three hours, I have 24 hours. I got three hours to make people happy. And 21 hours, it's time for me to be happy. And that was very difficult for me to do for a long time. Yeah. But for me to go out of three hours and see people happy and, like, really happy. And it made me feel good. It made me work harder. Yeah, seeing other people having made you work right.

It made me work harder. So I think that people appreciate it. It's made me more vibrant, more elusive as far as it. Yeah, they like it. They like it. They like it. They like it. I'm not working by scoring anything like that.

They like what I'm doing. I keep doing it because, you know, that's what they want. But they care about my safety. They care about what I'm doing. But it's one that they just love the fact that I'm in because it's not, I'm playing for money. I'm playing because I like playing. Yeah, I can't remember who said this,

but somebody said, you never played the game from money. Never did. It might have been Isaiah Thomas or something like you said that. Oh, yeah, everybody else is certain the plan for money. John Sally during the documentary says, you found out the hard way that it's a business when everybody was getting traded and sort of the Pistons family split apart. And that took a toll on you.

It did. There's this incident where you go to the Palace of Auburn Hills, the court in Detroit. And you're getting in the parking lot with this gun in your lap. And then you just fall asleep. And now you tell the story like, it's a metaphor. You killed the old Dennis Rodman, but you didn't need to use the car. a gun. I mean, like, what do you mean with this story? What happened there? I actually, you know, when you write someone a confession note to someone, I think it's more like, you're not really

trying to kill the actual individual. I think you're trying to reach out to somebody and hopefully that someone would find that note or whatever you wrote and catch it before something really actually happened. My intention was to do that because there was no other way I had to, I can get out of what I was in. So I just drove over there with a gun. And just sat there and put it in my lap, and they're sitting in a country playing. It was loaded, you know, so now a sudden I decided to turn the radio, and it was Pearl Jam playing. This song came on, Even Flood. Then after that, Black came on song Black.

I started to listen to it. And I was a sudden, well, I was listening to the Pearl Jam, and then Black come on, I just started to close my eyes and started thinking about. And I was a sudden, I just thought I fell asleep. So basically Pearl Jam saved your life. Well, I would say that I think that, you know, at that period, the time, I think if anything that kind of cool the savage beast at the time, I think it would have been another group or another incident, got my mind off for trying to commit suicide.

But unfortunately for me, that was a time right there, like, it for me. But like anything in my life, I've always said this close. I said, you know what? Somebody has a hand on my shoulders, man, because I've been in so many incidents that I could have been dead quick. For once he'd really me back for some reason, for me not committing something that's going to be It's hanging myself, jumping off a building, jumping from a railroad track, putting a gun to my head, put a knife to my throat. I thought of all those fucking bullshit.

I thought of all those reasons how to do that. But for some reason, someone's running me back and keep me here grounded on planet Earth. Because I ain't done yet. I got things to fucking do. I'm believing that more and more every day. Do you still think about taking yourself out sometimes? Do you still think about that? Well, I think about certain things like that.

But, you know, I visualize the fact that I think I'm a superhuman because what has transpired. in my life to now, I was, you know, me and my girl that I gave with this one quote, I said, you know, what do you think if I dive out of a plane, no parachute, look up to God, and hopefully that he catch me, and I want to see my life flash in front of me? What do you think? You tell somebody to catch me? And I'm thinking about that. I've been thinking about for a long time, just jumping on a plane, no parachute, and just dive out and watch my life flash in front of me. What did I do wrong? How can I fix this? How can I be happy? And hopefully does somebody catch me? When's the last time you thought about it?

No, probably a week ago. ago. Do you feel up and down or it just crosses through your mind? I think there was just more like an energy rush for me. Well, I hope Darren Prince is keeping a good eye on you, your agent. Well, I can give you the part two about that whole thing. Sure. I'll get you part two. I'll have two other planes up there with guys with parachute, hoping that jump on the plane and come get me. That's the whole key.

Somebody's been watching Drop Zone and too many other movies. There you go. Make sure they've done that before. I'm not sure how easy that is. All right. So after that, you go to San Antonio. So by all accounts, you're going kind of crazy, right? This is the Rodman that everybody has seen in the media, the blonde hair, which you still have now, kind of? Is there a part of you that maybe felt too vulnerable in Detroit,

and you decided to maybe cover that up or change that when you went to San Antonio? Well, I didn't ask to do this, to change my hair. I didn't ask for that. I just went to San Antonio with an attitude. The fact of it is, I found a new to business, and I went with an attitude. I didn't care about nobody. I was just going to play basketball. I told everybody to fuck off, whatever.

I'm doing my job. That's it. And I just went to them all. I keep telling me. I went to a mall. And I said, let me dye your hair. Died my hair. I'm blonde. Went to the movies. That was fucking demolition man. Demolition man. All right. And okay, I inspect that. Now I go to the elbow dome. 30,000 people appreciation day for the spurs. They asked me, they want to say something. I say, hey, like me or you can hate me. But I'm here to play ball and kick ass. And I took my head up. And then my whole transformation when I was doing came to life. Yeah, you popped out of that cocoon. Demolition man. Was that the one where Wesley Snipes had blonde hair?

So you're like, oh, I'm going to pull of Wesley Snipes. Well, I didn't say that. No. No. You wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. No, you pay your taxes. Well, I try to.

Try to. On the outside, it starts to look like confidence. You get that swagger, maybe a different kind of swagger than you had in Detroit. On the inside, though, did it feel like confidence, or were you still trying to find yourself in some ways? I was just going with the flow. I was going with the transition at the time. I didn't have no thoughts about being a bad boy. I didn't have thoughts about being a rebel or me against the world.

No, I was just going out there doing Dennis. I didn't have a trait. I didn't have no desire to be an image or anything. No, I was just going out there, plan ball doing it my way. So the whole personal brand thing came after that. You were just doing what came to mind. Came to mind. But the whole secret about that and the whole vision about that,

I didn't know that I was building a brand. In fact, then people didn't think about that, brand and stuff like that. I was building a brand as I was doing this. All of a sudden, you walk around town or you go to a restaurant, You've seen people with colored hair, piercing, tattoos. I'm like, damn, people, you know. Yeah, you were tatted up before everybody else. Right.

Tatted up, piercings, blonde hair, doing all the crazy stuff, dressing in drag, going to drag clubs and some gay clubs stuff. I was doing everything like that, too. Yeah. People didn't get used to that in the beginning, especially in San Antonio. Oh, yeah, yeah. Especially in San Antonio. I was wearing, like, a halter tops.

I was wearing, like, dressed in drag makeup and stuff like that. And they got a hold of that. They asked me, Dennis, what are you doing? there. I said, nothing, having fun. Yeah. I mean, I will say, you don't get enough credit for that. You don't get enough credit for that. Because early on, you were one of the earliest supporters of, I don't even know what you would call it now, LGBT awareness. And you were one of the first high profile allies. I mean, didn't you put, was it the AIDS ribbon in your hair? Nobody was talking about that.

Nobody talked about that at all. Nobody, I think nobody knew what it really actually mean. Now. But nobody even talked about that. I did it. I did it for a couple of times I did it. I did it in Chicago. or San Antonio, and no one even asked me what's that mean. And I said, okay, great, you don't know what it means. I didn't elaborate at all. I thought, you know, just I put that somewhere there. Okay, great. So I just represented my gay community.

That was it. The gay community knew what it was. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like back then it was really revolutionary because there were people that weren't even talking about that in the media. Tons of people were in the closet. Like, back then, even Prince was straight.

I don't know. He might have been, he flip-flopped a lot. Why he did. So, yeah, I mean, it was very difficult for any athlete to try to come out in the closet. I mean, it was difficult then. As I'm speaking today, and I sit there and analyze myself every day when I sit on the balcony or not home, a hotel or something like that, I sit there and ask myself, I said, wow, what would I have done? Back then, if I were told someone that I was gay playing the NBA, what would I would have done? And I'm saying myself, today's self, and I said, wow.

if I was gay and I told the world I was gay, it would be the most shocking news on a planet. Well, you do have glittery painted nails, but maybe. It might not have been totally shocking. Well, I was saying, but I was saying I had painting nails back then, too. Yeah. But I was saying, it would have been shocking back then because people didn't realize that there was a great basketball player, athlete in the world that's gay, athlete, athlete, athlete, athlete, athlete. If I was gay, playing in the NBA, and people was like, whoa. Imagine how they react today, compare how they were.

that back. Yeah, 25 years ago. Just goes, whoa, that would be like, uh-uh. Yeah. You can have that uh-uh. But I'm like, wow, if I was gay, I probably happen as a fucking clam that's showing the world. Okay, great.

People look at you different, but guess what? Long as you were performing? People would get used to it. They get used to. Oh, okay, great. Yeah. Yeah, he's gay, but he had 35, 37 points. So we're fine with it.

We're fine with it. We're fine with it, right? Turns out, that's his secret. Right. Right. Good. Vitamins, right? Vitamin's right.

What kind of vitamins is it? It's like A to Z. Yeah, right. You feeling vitamin Z right now? That feels a little bit better. Good. Yeah, good. That publicity stunt where you ended up,

was it marrying yourself or something like that? Yeah. I mean, that is priceless. No wonder Madonna liked you. She was probably like taking notes the whole time about all these things you were doing. She's like, is that my dress from like a virgin? No, Madonna's like, yay tall.

Yeah, probably wouldn't have fit. But anyway, I was, I was. I wasn't dating Madonna at the time. No, I know. But I'm saying that when I did that, that was just a spell in a moment. It came to my head. I said, what can I do to spice up this book signing? And I said, how about I married myself?

And I came with this idea. I think the rich card a fourth season in New York. And he was like, you serious? I said, yeah, why not? I left the room. I went down to stairs to the gym. And I bumped into Stephen Tyler. Oh, man.

He was riding up. He was riding a bike. I was sitting beside him. I threw the idea at him. I said, Stephen, what are you thinking if I marry myself? He just started going nuts. Oh, my God. Really?

He said, oh, why? He said, do it, do it, do it. I said, yeah, I'm planning on doing it. I said, coming from you, yes. He said, it's all good. Michael Jordan was saying, I don't think he's going to make it to 40. What do you think when you, what does to your mind when you hear your teammates say stuff like that? Everybody said that because I was burning both ends of the calendar.

I play basketball and I go out all night to 6 o'clock in the morning, try to practice at 10. I actually practice. I was doing it for like three years straight with the Bulls. And I functioned. I was a very functional alcoholic. I worked out a lot. That's what really saved me. I worked out so much all day long.

I'm like, I said, Dennis, you ain't going to make it to Florida. I said, yeah, well, I ain't going to die like that. So after the 98th season, I went to Vegas one time at the Marajas Casino. I'm my friends. We had that and my friends said, dude, look. I said, what are you looking at? He said, look at that shit up that at the, what they call the, what they call it? I don't know what that's called.

It's called. It's called. He said, your name's up there. I said, oh, shit, my name's up there. I said, I went to ask the guy, so what's my name with the people? People have been on you that you won't make it to 40. I'm like, really? Oh, wow, Vegas.

What were the odds? I don't know. It was invented that you will make it to 40. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, that's cool. That was your reaction? I thought my reaction. That's cool, man.

Great. I'm here now. You should have placed a bet. You could have paid some money. I could have based it. But it was far. I said, God damn. Really?

People think them that bad. Wow. And people get this misconception about me. They think I'm doing drugs, like heavily, like cocaine and acid and heroin and stuff like that. And I only drink alcohol. I didn't that's about it. And that's a bad drug. You know, I was really doing it really hard and hard, you know, stuff like that in Vegas.

Yeah. I slowed down for a minute, you know, got my shit together. And I think when at 50, people said I was going to die at 50. And here we are. I do have a quote. I see, you know, it's one thing that I'm not going to die from is alcohol. Oh, yeah. I'm going to do that.

I'll make sure that won't happen. Yeah. I guess that's the victory, right? When you're sober, when it's sober, I can't promise people that I'm going to be sober the rest of my life. This is not my intentions to be sober now. I'm just trying to get back on the right path. See, that's one direction I want to go.

See, this side of the fucking lifestyle lives. That's what I'm doing right now. I'm trying to make sure that it's just the right way for me to do it and live a cool life. Or should I go back and do this other guy again? See, so, you know, that's option is up to me. It's up to everybody, whatever you're doing life. Like the options there. So I'm just, you know, see if this is, this is working out pretty well and let's see how far I can go with this. I know your dad who had bounced, I guess, when you were three,

showed up to a game once. And you said it fucked me up. How do you process that? I mean, that was a weird time for him to show up, right? No, I figured he'll show up because he got 29 kids from the Philippines. And his name is Philander. Talk about living out your name. I don't know, dude. I have no clue how he got that name. Philander, a proper name, right? Yeah. He actually showed up at the practice facility. I was coming in. I was a little late. I was like five minutes late for practice.

I was trying to get into the gate. And this black guy runs up to my truck and is knocking on my window. I said, what do you want, man? You know, I just want to tell you, Dennis, I'm your father. I said, great. I said, you're going to have to wait. I'm late for practice. So I didn't really pay attention to that bullshit.

Did you believe him? Did you even believe him? No. I said, whatever. Another fan. She wanted to be fucking cute. So I went in there. We played the game.

And the four quarters start. And some of the guys said, Dennis, look. up there. And said, that guy says, you'll follow these up to sign an autographs and doing interviews and stuff. I said, great, thanks. I didn't know. I didn't care what he was doing. Yeah. After the game, I didn't even see him. I didn't want him to come back to the locker room. Yeah, that's what I saw him pretty much to the Philippines. That's crazy. Unbelievable. In the 30 for 30 documentary, there's tape where you actually lament, you cry and lament being famous, and it seems like you didn't actually really like it that much, but you were kind of addicted to it maybe

at that time. I didn't like being famous. didn't like it. I didn't like it because, you know, if you asked up, one of my guys that security for me, he would always, I was always seen that, you know, you need to go and take your time. He had locked the door behind me. He'd know, because I would cry. I'll roll down on ground and so crying, I tell myself, I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be this. I don't want to be that. And I try to get myself together. I'm by myself in the Bulls locker room. Everybody's gone. I'm by myself. And I'm just looking up. I was like, damn, man. Shit, try to compose myself and those guys understood.

He said, and they'll tell you the story. You probably heard. He said, he didn't want to do all that. He just wanted to have fun and just play and stuff like that. And it was just one of those things where it was cool for me to do that all the time to let that out, to keep me humble that, you know, this not going to last forever. It's more like, I just want to be this regular guy, go out to the bars and hang out with the locals and be me.

When you see Isaiah Thomas in 30 for 30, he's crying and he's saying, you're in Chicago, you're clearly looking for help, but nobody's helping you. When you see his emotions like that, I mean, do you agree? You know, in retrospect, were you looking for help? Did you feel isolated and alone at that point? I think I said probably know me better than anybody as far as playing in the NBA. I think he was the one guy that took me under his wing and helped me grow as an individual and as a person. I think he has the most heartfelt for me because he knows the things I was going through those six, seven years I was in New York.

He was the only way really was there for me besides Peter Chinnopoulos, his dad, his family. and Nancy and their family, but he was there for me 24-7, and I think that's one of the attachments between men that comes from. He actually really cared about me. He still does from the look of it. I mean, he still does. I think it was at the end. You said, I'm one of the top 10 most recognizable people on the planet.

I am. I should be happy. That's true statement. I think for sure now. You ask yourself, I should be happy, right? I mean, at some point, did you think fame would make you happy? Well, I use that as a fact that, yes, I am probably most recognizable with people on the planet. Yeah, the top ten. But it's like, that's actually a fucking curse. It's more like, I'd rather have the money than fame any day. But even with money, it sucks too. So I'd rather just be a local guy where short flip-flops go to the fucking beach and have a cigar, maybe have a drink or two, that's all right, and just live with my friends around. I mean, you can do that now.

I can do that now, but it's very difficult for me to do it because no matter where you go, go downstairs, if people want to take pictures. Going down the street, people want to take pictures. I mean, it's never ending. Not to say that I don't like it, but it's more like, damn. Just tell him your Wesley Snipes and people be like, oh, and let's walk away. Let's walk away, right? I don't want a picture now. But, you know, I like interacting with my fans and people that like me.

I like doing it. I like socialize with people. I love it. I like being cool with people. I'm not saying I don't want my picture taken, bro. I love people, being around them. What was in your memory the happiest time in your life? The happiest time, let's see.

I mean, the happiest time? I can say a lot of them, but they all turn to shits. So I can say a lot of happen. I could say, well, and my first child, but that didn't turn out too fucking well. So that went to fucking over there. I could say win a championship, that didn't work out too fucking well. Why not? Because things changed.

Nothing else is the same. So when it championed with Chicago, that was pretty cool. I don't know. It's a difficult question. I think down the road, I probably can answer that. Yeah. It seems like part of the problem with you remembering what time is happiest in your life is that you're worried that the stability is not there, that it's going to be taken away from you somehow, or that it's going to disappear somehow. No, I just think that I have so much to offer. I just got to wait and decide how I can dissect my life and try to pinpoint what was the turning point to make me satisfied to keep living every day. That's what I'm waiting for. What do you think that will look like? No fucking clue. You have no clue. I'm no damn clue. I'm so thankful and grateful that I can

actually do that. Yeah. And it keeps me moving and grooving every day. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dennis Rodman. We'll be right back after this. Thank you for listening and supporting the show, because you're listening. your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air. To learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard so you can check out those amazing sponsors, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And don't forget the worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast.

If you're listening to us on the Overcast Player, please click that little star next to the episode. We really appreciate it. And now for the conclusion of our episode with Dennis Rodman. I was in North Korea with you. I don't know if you caught that downstairs. I caught it downstairs. eating part of your salad. And I was like, let's leave the guy alone.

But I was in North Korea. I spotted, we were in one of those, I don't know, mandatory museums where you got to sign in and everything. Because we didn't know who you were. My friend goes, is that Dennis Rodman? And I was like, no, of course not. Why would Dennis Rodman be here? And then we look in the book where we sign in. And my friend's like, that says Dennis Rodman on the paper.

So we signed our names right next year and took somebody's got a picture of it somewhere. But to run into you at North Korea was just. definitely was something else. I know you gave a toast to Kim Jong-un, and you said something like, your father and grandfather did some fucked-up shit, but you're making a change. Your entire entourage must have just, like,

clenched up everything at that point. That was funny, though, because I gave a toast to him to his birthday. To him to Jong-un. I took him to-Jong-Ungu. He was sitting right beside me. I stood up and said that fucking thing. My friend said, you know what the fuck you just said?

I said, nope. That's a great. So he said, whatever. But they clapped. I said, but he's trying to make a change. And I said that. I actually meant it, and he really didn't take offended to it. What was he like?

What was Kim Jong-un like, just personally? It was cool to me. I mean, you was fine. We ate very well. I'm sure. We ate very well. We ate like nine coarse meals every fucking meal. It's like, okay, you want a duck bring it on?

You want a cow bringing on. You want a chicken, bring on. I mean, everything you want, it was right there. It was like the whole table. What was the weirdest thing that you guys did? Because it must have been like normal, normal, normal, normal. okay, but we're in North Korea. There must have been a point where you were like,

did he just say shoot rocket launch? There must have been something weird that happened, partying with Kim Jong-un. We never talked about politics. No. We never talked about politics. We never talked about the starvation in North Korea. I'm trying to cut you on that one.

We never talked about the military, which I saw a lot of that stuff, which I didn't care. It's more like entertainment. We never really got in depth with the politics of North Korea in America. Yeah. We never talked about that.

That didn't even have been brought up. We just talked about life and sports and skiing and, you know, snowboarding and Korea, every day. We talk about stuff like that. Every day. We said something new come up. We go play horse or go ride horses, stuff like that. We have clips of North Korean people praising Dennis Rodman. I mean, I go to an orphanage in our career, and these people put on a show for me. You see all the dignitaries over here sitting over here.

I'm sitting there a chair by myself. Everybody's sitting around. And the kids will come out and put on performance for me. People never saw that. I got footage of that. You go to a stadium, we got $160,000 of people. saying they're clapping to you and saying your name. People have never seen that. And you're on the States by yourself, 160,000 people send that clapping to you. Never saw that.

And when you go to the hospital, people sit there and said, we're glad you hear. Glad you hear. Glad you hear. That's somebody. People don't see that. And that part right that I was trying to relate that back to America. So, you know, these people are not bad. They just don't know.

They're not sheltered, but they just don't know. I wasn't trying to convey, okay, great, I'm going to go back and try to prove the fact that North Korea is great, even though I'm fighting against the fucking winning, losing battle, you know, and I just made it clear the fact that I want to bring sports to North Korea. I want to communicate that way, you know, open the door that way. So, you know, people won't be afraid to go to North Korea. It's okay to go there. When are you going to go back? Well, Donald Trump, opening gate. Let me in now. No, let me in. I always said Donald Trump, he will open the gate back up because of me. You don't think Donald Trump will open up North Korea because of you? Yeah. Why is that? I can't. I can say it would be different, very, very different if I didn't go to North Korea the first time and make awareness the fact that there was someone harshest over there. It would be different. If I didn't go there then, I guarantee this will never be happening right now. We will never be talking about in North Korea because before I went there, we didn't give a shit about in our career.

even though they were doing the same shit, doing the same stuff, but no one paid attention on our career. I started to go there and start giving awareness what's going on in North Korea. That's when shit started to come to light. Donald Trump didn't do that. That president didn't do it. Obama definitely hated my guts because I was doing it. He couldn't stop it.

Trump didn't do it. The only reason why Trump even had that summit is because of me, he said, okay, great, let me go over there and try to make peace. I love Donald Trump. Me and Donald Trump, you have a blast together, you know, stuff like that. But I'm saying, though, no one ever thought about having a meeting summit with North Korea seven years ago. Nobody ever thought about it. Kenneth Bay did thank you for the increased attention.

I mean, he was the guy that came out and he was like, hey, I think Dennis Robben helped get me out of here. That guy was there for a long time. Long time. At the end of the 30 for 30 documentary, there's not much about that family, the rich family, that you were so close to when you were young. Are you still close with them? Well, we kind of broke away distant wise because of certain things that happened. I guess they pretty much got older. You know, if you saw in a documentary with the mother,

God damn, she seems like she's so fucking racist. Yeah. The way she talks. Yeah. I said, that's country, you know, if you live with them, you understand. I got used to them. You know, she'll make stupid comments, but I don't care. But it was just more fun than anything.

But it was like I said, notice one of those precious moments in my life that really kept me whole and kept me as a human being and kept me moving in that right direction as far as going to the NBA. I worked my ass on on that farm. every day, 5.30 to 8 at night every day, besides playing basketball. So you don't still keep in touch with them? You stay with them. Well, I keep in touch with the sons. Oh, you do? Yeah. What happened to, is it Brian? Yeah. Well, Brian's doing his own thing in Dallas. Yeah. You know, he's doing his own thing. He went

through some issues, too, but he's getting back on the right track. When you hear Pat Rich, the mother say things like, well, I feel like I lost a son. What do you think when you hear that? I mean, now that you're not in touch with her. You know, it's funny to my mother said the same thing when I went to move with that white family because when I went to southeast in Oklahoma State, I told my mother I'm never coming back. And then when I went there, when I started to live with this white family, and then I went back to Dallas and I took the little white kid with me to Dallas to my mother's apartment or whatever. And my mother said, why is he here? He was like 12. You were like 22. He's 12 years old, a white skinny kid. And I bought the kid with me to Dallas and stuff like that

in the projects of all places. And my mother said, So what is he doing here? I said, well, you know, he's coming with my friend, 22 and 12. You know, it's more like, okay. That's like some Michael Jackson looking type thing. That one's like that. No, of course, but people looked at that. It looked at it like that.

It's a little white kid doing the neighborhood with him. And my mother said the same thing. She said, I just want my son to come back because she says that I abandoned her when I went with that white family. I never went back to the ghetto to the projects at all. When I lived with them, I wouldn't even talk about my family. It seems like you've got sort of this thing where you move on from people and you just never look back. I catch myself doing that a lot because it's like, wow.

When I catch myself doing a routine, I forget what just happened 10 days ago or two days ago because I'm so focused like this. I'm so focused on this right here. I forget that for a time being. I forget that unless I'm alone. I started to think about all these things that has happened over the last year, last two years, last 10 years, like 20. I started thinking about everything and then try to put my mind at that ease place where I so get great. got it, I got it, I don't forget. I think that's one of the main reason why I keep going and doing what I'm doing now.

I'm not trying to keep myself so still and so bored and thinking about the same old bullshit. I'm always looking for new things, new avenues to keep me striving for that fucking ability to help people and to help myself. I was going to ask you about, I wanted to end on a fun note and ask you how you broke your dick three times, but out of respect for your friend, I think maybe we should skip that. She's heard it too many times. She's heard it too many times. But I'm saying, but there's no good note. Yeah. What you went on a good note?

I mean. Ask me something that nobody's heard you say on this podcast. Nobody's heard me say. A question to someone. Ooh, that's a tricky one. I mean, I thought,

how did you break your penis three times? There's a question I would never have asked anyone. Everybody knows that story. Everybody knows that story. Then let me flip this around. Tell me a story that you've never told any of these other media folks because you're doing a ton of me. How are you going to flip it like that?

Luckily, I'm in the position where I get to ask the questions. You get to be the fun one. How are you going to flip that on your own podcast? How are you going to do that? That's how podcast is. Miss stream, you're going to still do that, right? Midstream.

Okay. All right. You want me to say something that people... A story that no one's heard that you think is funny or that you think is educational. Probably both. He's got to have something. There's got to be something where you went, ooh, I'm glad I didn't mention that. Now's a good time to mention it.

I mentioned everything. I'm missing a lot of stuff, man. I got to say a lot of fucking crazy stories, but we'll wait for the movie and the book and the series. You got a book coming? Well, I just thought about it. Oh, okay. I just thought it should be coming next year. Well, I give you one story.

Please. That was a time where I contraflated on trying to go on the other side of the road. Meaning the same sex? Yeah. Yeah. I thought about that. I thought about that. Nope.

No? I said I thought about it. Yeah, I understood it. I thought about that. But I was saying that we all have the option and the freedom to do anything we want. Like they say, curiosity, kill the cat. And you never indulge that curiosity or just once? Never have.

Never have. You can always think that. It's more like I say, great, if you want to go. go that, go that. If you don't want to go that, don't go there. It's like saying you see your mother and father doing drugs. You didn't go there. It looks fun, but damn, fuck it. Keep going. Keep going on your path. Same thing with that. Why did you resist that, though? Looking at that now, you're hanging out at those clubs. Obviously, you got, I'm sure there were tons of guys that were like, hey, let's try and bang Dennis Rodman. No, they didn't say that like that.

They said it to each other. Maybe not to you. That's what I said earlier. I said, it'll be a trip. If I told people I was gay back then, which I'm not, if I was gay, I'd be proud of it. I mean, the whole flag, I have a flag hanging from my cock. Hey, I'm gay as fuck. Look at me. So. So. So.

So. So I'm a clip. So. So. Yeah, but it's like, yeah, but I'm just saying, even if I'm just saying, even even day, I'd be proud of it. If I was good, I'd be proud of it. I'm saying I'm going to be shamed up.

But there. But there's a lot of stories I can tell you. The truth are there or tell all book. I never had one of those books. Tell all book. And I got a lot of stories. I can tell all about a lot of things. But I won't write that book.

All right. Well, you'll have to come on next time. I got to come on next time. That's right. I'm down. All right, brother. Thank you very much. Always good, man.

Oh, wow. Well, Dennis Rodman, I told you, it's a crazy one. This is just a taste of the enigma that is Dennis Rodman. He was discovered by a college coach, for example. We didn't cover this. But the guy flies out to him from Oklahoma. He flies all the way there. Rodman won't come out of his room for a few hours.

I'm like, what is going through your head here? He moves to Durant, Oklahoma, not exactly a friendly place for him. Racism every day, didn't phase him at all. His best friend was like 12 when he was 22, as we mentioned. I mean, it's just bananas. His 30 for 30 on ESPN was crazy. And you really see how all the things he wanted to do as a kid he started doing in his 20s. It's just wild.

His level of skill in basketball, Isaiah Thomas said it best. He said, we were standing in the layup line, warming up and shooting, and Rodman was standing back and watching everybody shoot. And Isaiah Thomas, he says, hey, come on, you have to participate. Everyone's shooting layups. You have to shoot layups too. And he said, Dennis Rodman says,

I'm just watching the rotations on the basketball. Like when you shoot, your ball spins three times in the air. Joe's sometimes has three and a half or four times. That's how far Dennis Rodman had taken rebounding. To literally a totally different level. Off the charts. He knew the rotation of every person that shot on the team. if it spins sideways, where it would bounce, how often it would bounce left or right.

He had a rebounding down to his science. I never heard anyone think or talk about rebounding and defense in the way that he can break it down. When you talk about basketball IQ, Isaiah Thomas says he would put Rodman at a genius level. And that is just a tiny piece of what informs this man's character today. I had a really, really fun and interesting experience with him. And we're actually going to be hanging out again in a few weeks. So stay tuned for more with Dennis Rodman, not necessarily on the show, but certainly on our social media feed or my social media feed, which is at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. Big thank you to Dennis Rodman and Darren Prince for making this happen.

Check out his 30 for 30 on ESPN. We'll link to it in the show notes if there's a public link. And there's, of course, there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. And there are worksheets for each episode, including this one, so you can review what you've learned from Dennis Rodman. at Jordan Harbinger.com in the show notes. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits in our six-minute networking course,

which is free over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. And don't kick the can down the road. Don't do it later. You got to dig the well before you're thirsty. You got to have those relationships in place before you need them. Nobody wants to get a call from you. Hey, can you help me out with something when they haven't heard from you in six months or a year?

Come on. These drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. changed my life, my business. It's free. Not enter your credit card free, but free at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. And of course, most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So join us. You'll be in smart company. Again, my social media at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. This show is created in association with podcast one. This episode was produced by Jen Harbinger, Jason DeFilippo, and edited by Jace Sanderson. Show notes and worksheets

by Robert Fogarty, music by Evan Viola, and I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. And yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, which this episode should definitely count. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast?

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