The Jordan Harbinger Show - 30: Vanessa Van Edwards | How to Captivate with Social Cues

Episode Date: April 17, 2018

Vanessa Van Edwards (@vvanedwards) is the lead investigator at human behavior research lab Science of People and author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People. What We Discuss with Vanessa Van Edwards: How to make a graceful exit with social cues. How to nicely interrupt someone with social cues. How to introduce someone whose name you don't remember. How to show someone you are (or are not) attracted to them with social cues. How to show someone you don't believe them with social cues. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A lot of the times I think interruptors interrupt out of fear. They're afraid of silences. They're afraid of being boring. And they're afraid of running out of things to say. So in their head, they're like constantly active of thinking the next thing. And so once they come up with it, they want to ask it or share it right away. But if you say I have three things or I have two things or first, second, they will be like, oh, I have a break.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. On this episode, we're talking with my good friend, Vanessa Van Edwards. It's been a while since I've gotten a chance to speak with her. Flew up to Portland to hang out for a minute, and we did a show because that's how we roll, and it's also how we justify flying around all over the place to hang out with our friends. Not bad.

It's a good time up there. If you're in Portland, you live in a great place. I'm just going to go ahead and throw that out there. If it didn't rain every day, I'd move there. Today, we're talking about how to make a graceful exit with social cues, how to show someone you're not attracted to them with social cues, how to show someone you don't believe them with social cues and how to nicely interrupt someone with social cues.

In case you haven't put it together, this episode largely revolves around social cues. There's a lot more that we discuss in this particular episode because Vanessa Van Edwards is a master of body language and nonverbal communication, which is one of the reasons we met in the first place. And, you know, she practices what she preaches. She's a nice lady that Vanessa Van Edwards.

I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of her and her content. and I'm happy to bring some of that here to you today. Don't forget, we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure that you understand everything that Vanessa Van Edwards and I discussed, and you can actually apply it. Go figure.

That's important too, right? Not just learning through osmosis, learning through doing, and occasionally writing stuff in a PDF. Those worksheets always in the show notes. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. Now, here's Vanessa Van Edwards. Something that I think a lot of people want to know

from you especially, is how to get away from a conversation. Because we've talked a lot about how to start conversations and how to meet people and how to create good nonverbal first impressions. And now we want, and we'll do more of that on the Jordan Harbinger show because you and I have unfinished business literally.

Yes, always. We're going to create like a dozen hours of stuff, hopefully up here in Portland where there's perfect environment for getting a lot of work done. Lots of rain. It makes you really productive. Exactly. It makes you really productive.

and also makes you just, there's not, I mean, if there's nothing else going on, you have to work. You got to work. It's not as tempting otherwise. But people want to know how to get out of situations. We talked about getting into social situations. Let's talk about how to get out of it because especially for the ladies, I think there's a lot of, okay, how do I make it stop?

Yeah. Okay. So what's so interesting is I accidentally figured out this was a skill because I was teaching first impressions as a skill. I'm like, you know, make a grand entrance. Come in and wow them, right? all like that that's a skill and then i realize that you could have the most amazing first impression a really great conversation but if you don't know how to exit the conversation it ends so

awkward yeah you're like uh okay well i'm gonna go the bathroom right and then you're like i'm i messed it up like yeah i think the other skill is leaving a lasting last impression yeah okay so i think these are two skills and they're very different so here's my favorite process for i call it a graceful exit okay Okay, so first is you want to have a cool down. You know how like any workout? You have a warm up. You have the workout and then you have a cool down. It's the same thing on a conversation.

The warm up is like that initial chit-chat, that first impression conversation. And then when you feel that lull, right? Like maybe a couple of silences. Maybe you have to put it up the bathroom, whatever it is. You want to start mentioning verbally, giving them cues that we're sort of wrapping up. There's a couple ways to do this. So don't just start backing away slowly? Like the cool down is like a slow back.

The cool down is like, is there a table behind me? No, I got 13 feet to go. That could work. That could work, especially if you're very graceful. And we will talk about non-verbal cues too. But I like the verbal first. So like verbally, future mentions. So people subtly get this.

If you're like, so what are you up to this weekend? What are you up to later tonight? Like that future mention, it gets people out of the present. And it can segue into, well, that sounds great. I hope you have a great weekend doing X, Y, Z. Alone. Yes, without me there. Yes. So the future mention can be a really nice segue for them to know that that's coming, but also that you're about to then say, wish you the best with that. The other verbal thing you can do is begin to wrap up what you talked about in the sense of, wow, that project sounds super interesting. Well, I'm going to have to reach out to you on LinkedIn. I would love to hear more about that. Or did you have a card? I would love to see that. I would love to hear more trading cards. That is also, okay, we're moving towards the end. And then the other verbal segue is, so I'm going to follow up with you probably tomorrow or.

Friday. Is that sound good to you? And so you're giving yourself a runway for a really easy exit where they can also not be taken by surprise. The worst thing when they're when they're like, oh, wait, what? I wasn't sure we were done yet. Yeah. I noticed that a lot of interactions sort of have this natural fade out, but you don't know if the other person is on the same page, right? So if I'm talking with you and then I'm like, all right, well, we're at some conference. And someone else comes up and kind of says, oh, hey, Vanessa. And then I'm just like, ah, hem, right on standing here. Because they didn't do that.

Or I have to be like, hi, I'm Jordan. And I'm like forcing my way in there because otherwise I'm standing around. Or you started engaging with that person. And then I'm like, oh, I guess we're done talking now. So then I just sort of wander up or I go, or stand silently. See you guys later. Yeah. Stand silently.

You're like, bye. And they're like, oh, no, don't go. And you're like, but I was standing here silently frozen. I'm not participating in the interaction. Okay. So this is a side tip, but I actually think it's important. I think it is your responsibility if you are interrupting someone. So if you're the interrupter or if you're the person who knows both people.

So it's your responsibility to make a smooth transition. So if you're the interrupter, not only do you have to be like, hey, Jordan, I haven't seen you forever. Oh, I'm so sorry. Did I interrupt? I didn't mean to. That is actually your responsibility is the interrupter to be a smooth interrupter. Because it gives them the opportunity to be like, oh, no worries. Yes, follow up with me on that.

So they can finish up a thought that they might have just had. Or, no worries at all. we were bored out of our mind. So glad you're here. Right. It's like, yes. So the interrupter has to do that, ask for permission to enter the conversation. And then if you're the person who knows both Jordan and Danielle or Jordan and Jen, I would have to say, oh my gosh, you have to meet each other. Let's see, in common. I think you guys, I think you guys actually have this in common. Because that, otherwise you have that, you make everyone awkward. So that's interesting. That's an entrance queue and it prevents awkward exiting. What happens if you're interrupted by a not polite

Interruptor. Yes. You've got to do something about that, right? So the aforementioned, oh, hey, Vanessa. And I'm like, oh, all right. My strategy is always to sort of like bull in a china shop introduce myself as soon as everyone takes up. I'm like, oh, by the way, I'm Jordan.

And I'm like, you should feel bad about not introducing yourself. I actually like that. I personally think that's really good because otherwise, I hate it. You know this. You've been in a conversation where it's group people and there's a silent person who hasn't been introduced and hasn't said. anything and you're like, the elephant becomes like louder and louder and louder. And you know why it usually happens? Why, I think it usually happens. Someone doesn't know their name. Oh, for sure. Yeah,

right. This is, um, dang it. Like, you don't want to bring it up. Right. So what happens is. Oh, like, this is, oh, like this happens to me too. So like what you're talking to, like, let's say that we just met, I didn't know your name. And then all of a sudden someone comes up and I'm like, oh my God, I don't remember this guy's name. I'm not going to introduce you because I'm afraid. So then you end up standing there awkwardly. So first, I love the, in the China shop of like, I'm Jordan, even if I remembered or not. And if you don't remember someone's name, there are ways you can subtly get around it. This isn't quite your interrupting question, but you can say, so you introduce the other person first. So I could say, Danielle,

meet my new friend. Danielle, tell me about this. And then usually Danielle will ask, what was your name? Or you can say, my name is. So sometimes you can leave up to them. I also have a rule with everyone who I'm close with that if I introduce them first, I'm I do not know the other person's name. That's a cool hidden rule. But you need to have it established beforehand. Usually, but not always. Like, for example, my husband is the best of this.

He knows this really well that if he walks up to me. And I'm like, this is my husband, Scott. He knows before he even gave me a chance to say, hi, what's your name? Ah, nice. Jen, we've got to steal them. All of your wing men, all of your wing ladies, they must know that rule. Luckily, even if they don't know the rule, you can try it.

And it usually works. Because you introduce them first and you kind of give them the floor and then they go, oh, hi, what's your name? So, like, kind of puts the onus on that. So names really helps, even if you don't know. Right, because no one's ever going to go, oh, so what's this person's name if they're standing right there? They're never going to do that. They're going to ask the person, what's your name? And then you're like, or they're even more awkward than you for getting their name. So then you're off the hook. Yeah, then you're like, God, weren't they weird? How, who does that? I'm rude. Also, I'm a big fan of like,

don't know their name. I'm just going to take a long drink of water. Yeah. And then also, When you're drinking water, other people know they have to talk. Right. Right. So you're like, hey, this is Danielle. And you take a big drink of water. And they know that it's their turn to say something. And they usually will.

Just going to take a nice long sip of this. So if that happens in an interview, it means I don't know what to say. It's your turn to talk. Yes. That's what that means. You were talking about interrupting. Yes. If you're the smooth interrupter, great.

You're supposed to do that. Oh, excuse me. Hi, my name is this. Did I rope everyone in? But what happens when someone just plows? I was in, hey, Vanessa, I haven't seen you in so long. Because you step back because you're polite or the person, the other person steps back because they're polite.

And then I'm just, since I've stepped back, I'm just losing social status like every second that goes by. It's true. Yeah. And I'm not wanting to be obsessed with social status. But it is at some point you just feel like, okay, I feel like such a schmo. Yeah. I'm furniture now.

It's been a minute and a half. It's so weird. No one's talking to me. Yeah. Am I supposed to just leave now? So here's, so there's a couple different ways you can think about. about this. And I actually like to break it down really specifically. So first, you're breaking into a group. Let's talk about a group of people. So my favorite strategy with a group is if you enter into a group that's in a conversation, most likely you will be sidelined because the group flow doesn't want to be like, oh, who's this new guy standing around? So what I like to do is in a group actually sidle up to the one person who has very, very open body language. So usually there's one person in the group that has their shoulder kind of out, like they don't have a closed circle. They may be kind of looking around overhead gazing. They're very. You're very. You're you're in. So I will usually make eye contact with them, sidel up to them and say, hey, you look like

you're having a fun conversation. Can I join? That way, I'm making this person my introducer. Yeah, they're now responsible. They're responsible for you. Because they're not going to go, no, it's obviously private. You're in some sort of networking event. Right. And also, you're kind of, and they usually they will take a step back, put their arm and say, yeah, come on in. So the other group knows, oh, this person has been accepted. So I almost always will never cold approach a group because no one knows what to do with you and no one's taken responsibility for you. Yeah, I like this. I've definitely done my fair share of cold approaching groups in a past career as a guy who cold approaches groups of people, but the trick always at that point, and this is far

less graceful than what you explain, is to find the two people like you mentioned, if there's one or two that are sort of more open and just sort of place two fingers, one on each of their shoulders, and they will naturally turn to face you. And then you're, yeah, really just like this. And they'll open up and let you in. But then you can't just stand there and be like, continue. You have to, you have to at that point. Carry on.

Right. No, don't mind me. You have to at that point be like, hey, I'm Jordan, by the way. Sorry, I realized I haven't met you guys yet. And even if there's absolutely no reason why you should have met them already, if you're at an event or any kind of mixer, then people will go, oh, right on, because it's kind of what you're supposed to be doing. Yes.

So you can just kind of confidently stroll in there. And then what I've noticed years of doing this is if you get into a long or extended conversation with one or two of those people, they'll go, so how do you know everyone else here? And you realize at that point, they have no idea that you just met everyone. Yes. And that's everyone's objection is, oh, well, it's going to be weird. No, every single person in that circle assumes you knew one or all of the other people in that circle. Yes. And it's the same thing when you make someone be your sponsor.

They think that you knew the sponsor. Right. Right. Like whether you did or not, they just go, oh, yeah, like it's a friend of a friend, which immediately gives you social proof and immediately gets you in. I also think if you're brave enough to say, oh, hey, by the way, like, I'm Vanessa. Cool. The other way that you can do it is the kind of the warm-up. So one thing that everyone loves is when people laugh at their jokes. Everyone loves it. They love people laugh when you laugh at jokes. They love losing Oz. So what I like to do is I might not, like, say like, like, hey, I'm Vanessa, just here. But I'll make sure that I am demonstrative with my

social approval. So I laugh. I make more eye contact. I do and awe. So by the first few seconds of a conversation, you actually are already in the group because people are like, oh, she's a laugher. She's a supporter. They feel like you're already in there. And then what you can, if you really want to is then add in like little interjections. Like, oh, really? Interesting. Wow. You're already in the conversation then. Like whether they not, they know your name. And then after that, you can say, oh, by the way, I'm Vanessa. So nice to meet you. Yeah. That's, that's nice and smooth. It's kind of like the slow warm up. So I do want to bring up a really interesting kind of interruption that happens a lot. And I have

very specific cues for this. I don't know if anyone watching has an interruptor in their life. So this is someone where you're in a conversation. I'm that person, but yeah, go ahead. Sorry to interrupt you. Continue. You are an interviewer also. Yes. It's your show. You're allowed to interrupt me. I'm like, oh, she's getting too much attention. Let me

fix that right now. Let me add in my back to me. Witty smart anecdote. Okay. So if you have a Jordan in your life, all you have to do. I'm just joking. You're not actually that long. Extended sick of water. No.

So I'm talking about, this is like a really bad interruptor. This is someone who, they'll literally ask you a question. And while you are about to launch into it, they just go into their next question or they go into their story. You know those people.

They're rough. So I have a couple people in my life, so I have a couple of strategies I thought I would show you that are my favorites for these. Let's do it. Okay. So if you're with someone and they do that to you, one thing you can do verbally

to prevent them from interrupting you is what's called bookmarking. So do you, do you know about, have you? I've used bookmarking. marks before. Okay. This is not, this is a emotional bookmark. Okay.

Okay. So an emotional bookmark is you basically tell someone how long you need before you start talking. So for example, if you say, actually, I've lived in three different places. Someone says, where are you from? Right. Where are you from? Actually, I've lived in three different places.

They know. They cannot talk until you've gone through all three places. So there's actually two different phases. First, they know there's a next that's coming. So you're like table of. contents in your next sentence, or next few sentences. Yes. And they know this.

So they mentally prepare, ah, I have a few seconds off. A lot of the times I think interruptors interrupt out of fear. They're afraid of silences. They're afraid of being boring. And they're afraid of running out of things to say. So in their head, they're like constantly active of thinking the next thing. And so once they come up with it, they want to ask it or share it right away. But if you say, I have three things or I have two things or first, second, they will be like,

oh, I have a break. Right. Like, this person's going to probably talk for the next 30 seconds. I'm good for 30 seconds. So that's one way to prevent interruptor, especially if you have like a boss or a colleague interrupts in meetings. That works really well. What about just the socially unaware interrupter that isn't going, oh, there's three things. They're just going, what am I going to say next to prove how interesting I am in this conversation?

Because everybody knows those people. Oh, yeah. So then next level. So we're talking about levels of interruptions. The first one is bookmarking, hopefully a sane, logical. person will say, oh, I should wait my turn. Okay, but let's say that you have someone who has to be escalated. The other thing that you can do, there's three nonverbal cues I'm going to teach you.

Okay. The first one is call, I call it the fish. So, the fish. Just try to guess. The fish. It sounds like you're just wiggling in there. I don't know. Am I close?

No, but that's not. That's a good guess. No, but that's what fish do. So. Yeah, that's a good guess. Okay. So you're going to, you'll get it once I do it. So when you're talking to someone and they interrupt,

and you open your mouth, we know this is a nonverbal sign. So it's like a fish face. Yeah. So it's like you can't see me doing that, but even makes that kind of popping noise. You know, oh, she was about to say something. Or like she was literally mid-breath or mid-sentence.

So if someone's interrupting me, I will sometimes be like, and they know that I am holding my mouth open that kind of O format like a fish, because I want to say something. And it makes them feel rude. Yeah. That's a common technique that I have to use on the show.

Sometimes if I'm interviewing someone live, not you, of course, because you're experienced. I wouldn't say never. Mostly never. That's honest. That's true. Mostly never. I'll take it.

But you can also do this with your hands. Were you, right? Was this, am I? You got it. You got it. You got it. So like the second one is we are trained as humans to know that this, our hand up, palm out means stop. Right.

And so if you will be like, or you put your hand out. So the subtle one is just the handout. Right. Like it's almost like a pause. But if you really want someone to stop, especially like in a larger group, You can actually like almost. It's almost like you're raising your hand or stop. A gentle way to do this for me as a host is to have that hand out with my fingers open.

Somehow fingers closed is a little bit more forceful. Fingers open is kind of like, I'm reaching for something, but really I'm just reaching for you to stop talking for five seconds or even five milliseconds so that I can interject. Because we're trying to keep this conversation on track. It works just, it works perfectly in person. So you can do, I like, I never heard. That's true. actually. I don't know why that works. I don't know. It's just from testing it, this looks more forceful with my fingers closed than it does. I think it's like, this is like stop, right?

Like if you're really, really, but like a casual kind of putting your hand out is like just a little pause. So you can also, by the way, if this works for your brand, you can also do the people. The pupil? Just like one second? Just like one second. So it's like just one. That's a lot. Like that's top level like someone who's really bad at it. Right. Because like what do parents and teachers do to little kids who are talking? Oh, yeah. So we know that this is a sign of like, wait one minute, or it's not your turn yet. I'm trying to think if this looks.

Oh, it looks like I'm thinking, but it also looks like you might let me in. Correct. Because I'm thinking and I obviously have something. So I just did it also. I was like, I actually didn't have anything to say, but like. Thanks for that. Interrupting. Oh, no, I don't have anything to contribute.

I'm just trying to control the conversation. I wanted to show you how it worked in person. So, like, somehow, if you're like, oh, aha, eure, eure, eure. Yeah, it actually looks like you're having the idea, but actually what you're doing is, please just wait one second. So those are the kind of like nonverbal things you can do pretty easily. And of course, the absolute last level, touching them. Oh, right. Right.

If I put a hand in your shoulder, like, you know. That's kind of immediate. Yeah, that's something that works really well if you know the person. If you don't know them and they're a guy, you can get away with it 99% of the time. I would say be careful doing this to women if you're a man. not universally, but it can be a little aggressive if you don't know the person at all and you just suddenly reach out. Totally.

Not that they would get the wrong idea, but it might just be like, whoa, I don't know you. And some people are highly uncomfortable with this. I've learned that the hard way in the past. I 100% agree. I think that touch is the last level, especially if you're touching the opposite gender. Women to men and men to women, the absolute last level. If you touch someone and they recoil or like stiffen, you, I actually apologize for that.

Yes, definitely. Like, I'm like, oh, sorry about that. I'm so, I just got excited for a second. Exactly. Because then you're at least saying, I'm sorry, I acknowledge that. And then you try to like diffuse the awkwardness with like a little bit of humor. Yeah. Right.

So totally agree. Last level. I'll even take that tip away. Because if you can't get someone to stop talking with the fish, the finger and the palm, it just sounds funny. Yes. Like the fish, the finger and the eye. And the palm, they're not someone you want to talk to. Yeah.

Anyway, I think. It typically happens in professional situations where you can't get away from them. I mean, if you're in a social situation and you can never talk, this is a person who maybe needs a little bit of a lecture after the conversation. Like, hey, you know, you never let and you can never, it's better to lecture somebody about somebody else, right? If you have to do that. So instead of you never let me talk, you never let Jen speak.

I noticed that. You know, you never really let Jen speak. That way you're sticking up for them. You're not just forcing your agenda on them. Oh, I like that one. like standing up for someone else. Right. Even though you're like,

I know she's too polite to say this, but you never really let Scott talk. Oh, wow. That's such a good tip because then actually, like then you're kind of in on it together. You're not criticizing them about you. Yeah. You're just like,

I know she, and also you can be like, I know that Scott's a little shy. Yeah, and I bet you that she doesn't even notice you're doing this, but I feel like, oh, you know, we should let her come out of her shell

a little bit more. I love it. Yeah. It tends to be something that you can get away with as long as the other person's not there. Otherwise, you're just throwing them under the bus. Yeah, that sucks. Oh, you never let Jen talk.

No, I'm fine. Shut up. Or then you get someone who's like, I just want to apologize to you, Jen, for my root. And they're like, what? Yeah, what are you talking about? Exactly. Like, that's like even worse. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. No, Jordan said that you were upset that I was always interrupting. And I'm like, check, please. Gotta go. You're writing your wife's battles. Yeah. Not that she needs that at all. So how to make a graceful exit with social kids.

We talked a little about the future mentions. Yes. Oh, that sounds really great. have fun with that or that sounds really exciting. I hope you enjoyed that. And then follow-ups, all right, I'm going to get back to you on LinkedIn or give me your card. I'll make sure I follow up tomorrow.

I want to get a couple more clear verbal exit strategies. So we already have a great time with your weekend plans. Here's my business card. I'm going to follow up with you on LinkedIn. I'll be sure to follow up on this. Good luck with your projects. What other ways can we sort of gracefully slide out of something? Maybe we're not in a business situation.

So we don't want to follow up or they don't have some project. that we're going to follow up with. We just want to get the hell out of there. Yeah. So one of my favorites is like a very soft compliment. So like, for example, oh my gosh, you are, that story was amazing. I like made my night. It was so great talking to you.

Thanks for making my night. That's also like a very like nice way of saying like you're great. That was a great story. You made my night. Great talking to you. It kind of leaves everyone being like. It's all downhill from here. See you later.

You could literally say that. Do you know what I mean? It would be like a very funny thing to say. So kind of that compliment of like you were the highlight of my night. It was so good talking to you. Then everyone kind of walks away going, ha, ha, ha, ha, like a jolly. I'm so, ha. I'm so entertaining.

Yeah. Why is she gone, though? I'm not great. Where did she go? They realize that until later. Right. They don't realize that yet. Yeah, that's one of my favorites.

Nice. Okay, good. One that I stole from you. Yeah. Is I'm going to go say hi to the host. I'll catch you guys in a bit. And you don't have to catch them in a bit unless it happens organically. Exactly.

And no one's going to be like, how rude she went to go say hello to the person who's house we're in? Exactly. How dare you? Exactly. So that's like one of my favorites, host, fill in host with the boss with, and you can also do this with, oh my gosh, I see one of my old college friends. I have to go talk to them before they leave or like it looks like my friend's about to leave. I want to take a bite of her before she leaves. All of those are very legitimate reasons to go meet someone else.

And it gives someone like, oh, okay, like they have, they have another purpose. Same with, I'm going to go refill my glass. If your glass is on the empty, people actually do usually notice it and they're ready for you to say, I'm going to get a refill. you want to join or like, should we chat later? So you can also use that as an example. So refilling your glass, going to the bathroom, getting somebody to eat. I almost always am a grazer at these kinds of things where I can easily refill my plate as opposed to sitting down and having one giant meal.

Ooh, good strategy. Because it kind of gives you an out. Yeah. A little bit. Oh, these pizza rolls are really good and they're going fast. No joke. Like exactly. Like, I got to go.

Oh, I got to go refill before they all go out. Yeah. They have crab rangoon here, so screw you all that I'm up. I got to know. These things in a blanket art to die for it. I've used that before, like not joking at all. So, yeah, so I think that those ones compliment and reasons to go. I love it.

Okay, great. And so we have those sort of professional and not as more personal party excuses to go back. Casual, like so, casual, right? Like, so, you know, you were great. This is so, you're so funny. People always like to hear they're funny. Of course. And slash other friends came in.

People get also there's a big influx of people. The mood can sometimes change. people are very open to, oh, like, clearly there's new people here you want to go chat with them. Great. Yeah. Yeah, I dig that a lot. And this sort of dovetails nicely was something we talked about earlier on the Jordan Harbinger show, which was bringing people to networking events. And then it's like, oh, I met a clinger.

How do I get rid of them? And you have like the wingman strategy. And we can go over this stuff in another episode because I feel like you probably have a ton of those strategies as well. Clingers. Yeah, clingers or what do I do with this shy person that I feel bad for because I'm always. always compelled to sort of, it's like, but for the grace of God, go I, right? This used to be me.

How do we show somebody that we are not attracted to them with social cues? I think we can talk about attraction and dating stuff, maybe even in another show, because that's a whole unit. Let's save it. But a lot of, especially females who are networking or in professional situations, have a problem because they're going and they're talking with people, especially if you're a female engineer and everyone around you is, guy, you want to maybe draw a hard line or even if you're just in a mixed crowd, you really

don't want to have, even that thought in your head that somebody might mistake your intentions is got to be really uncomfortable. Yes. Okay. So first of all, this works for both sides. One, you don't want people to think that you're hitting on them. Yeah. And two, you want to make sure that you're observing someone like, oh, I want to make sure they're

not attracted to me either. So this works with both sides. So there's one first nonverbal cue that is. is the most, it's not flirtatious, but it is one of the warmest cues that we have. Okay. And it is nodding. So, especially in Western cultures, in India, it's a little bit different, but in Western cultures. Yeah, you have to do this weird sidewise.

Yeah, exactly. I can't even do it. I always make the exception. I always say that out. I always say that out loud because on YouTube otherwise, all of my followers from India, they're like, but not in India. So I know not India, it's a little different. But in Western cultures, the up and down nod, the vertical nod is, yes, I agree.

I'm listening. I'm with you. here. Right? The no nod is side to side. So the more that we are nodding, the more someone feels like they are literally into us. They're into what we're saying. So this is great for professional work for. But when you pair nodding with a couple others kind of flirtatious cues, lots of smiling, extra loud laughing, any kind of physical touch. So haptics is the fancy word for a touch. And so anytime that we have physical touch, this could be arm touches, this could be shoulder touches, could be hugs, could be cheek kisses. Those add as sort of accelerators for the nod.

Like they, when you get that kind of oxytocin, we get oxytocin from our touch, it's like adding fuel to a question mark of, is this person attracted to me? Is this person into me? Right. Okay. So what I would say is if you're really worried about someone, if you want to make sure that they know, you, they know that you're not attracted to them is actually nodding less. So having a very, very still head. It's hard to do actually. Yeah, I feel like I naturally am always nodding. Right. And I, I, I, I, also as well. So two years, two or three years ago, one of my nearest resolutions was to nod less. How do you even build that practice? Here's how. Here's how I think you do it is if you think you are a bobbleheader. So like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. It's not only very submissive, it's also can border on,

you know, I'm into depending on what it's paired with. Um, is I, so it's really hard to just stay still, right? That's really hard. Yeah, it's a little awkward. I'm holding my face still right now. So I don't know. It's working. Yeah, it is working. It's working. It might look a little awkward because I'm ripping my chin. This is called the Hillary Clinton. Hmm. I'm deep in thoughts. That's or this.

Yeah, you're deep in thought. So actually, is you can hold your chin. That actually works. What I do is I'll do the head tilt. So it's actually, we usually don't nod when we're head tilting. Right.

It's a little awkward. It's a little awkward. So the moment you head tilt, it still looks like you're engaged, still looks you're listening. And that's like exposing your ear, which is listening. But you're not,

it doesn't feel like you have to do the nodding. So if I feel myself, even in this interview, nodding too much, I'll just slightly tilt my head towards you. and that makes me hold it in that position as opposed to nodding. I like that a lot. I found myself nodding when you are nodding because we're doing mirroring stuff because we're

good friends and we're on camera in this sort of artificial situation. There's also, have you seen this thing where like if someone goes like this with their hand, the other person like cannot help but nod? I really resisted it right there. Yeah. You were holding your video. I was forcibly not doing it because we're talking about it. Yeah.

And the reason I mentioned that is because if you're a very handsy person, like I talk a lot with my hands and I'm doing this without even realize I'm doing it. I'll see the entire group will be like, mm. And it looks a little cultish. So also be careful if you want to, if you want to discourage flirtation or attraction, to also a little calmer with the hands, not doing this kind of a gesture

because it automatically makes people be like, yes. And when we say this kind of a gesture, the video is worth watching. It'll be embedded in the show notes. But we're looking at the sort of hurry up, winding the clock finger or hand movement where you're doing, how would you even stress? It's like, stirring.

stirring soup horizontally. That made it more confusing for sure. No, it didn't. How would you stir soup? I mean, you would stir it like this. And now do it horizontally. I mean, if you're holding this, I mean, okay, I'll give you that one. I'll give you that one.

Win for Vanessa. Soup that defies stirring soup in space because it's not spilling out. If you're stirring soup in space and there's no gravity, that's what that gesture was. Very useful reference point for most of my listeners. You're welcome. Most of my listeners have spent at least six months to a year in space. You're welcome. Yeah.

Very good. All right. We show people we're not attracted to them by nodding less. Notting less. Smiling less. Smiling less. So I want to, can we like dive into smiling for a second? Yeah, because I don't want people to be unfriendly.

I know. So I really struggle with smiling specifically because on the one hand, you're told from a very young age, especially women, are told, smile all the time, be friendly, be likable. And so when you first meet someone, you're told it's a smile, right? Every first impression article ever says smile. And then on the other hand, research is pretty clear that smiling is more of a submissive nonverbal. Correct. Yeah.

So you can be friendly and submissive or unfriendly and dominant. Dominant. Right. Now, I don't like that choice. I don't think it's that black and white. Sure. But I do think it's something to keep in mind. So for example, typically if you're in a room and whenever I'm in a room, I always try to cold read the room.

This is like the best non-rural practice. See if you can figure out who the boss is. See if you can figure out who has a crush on who. See if you can see alliances. It's a really helpful nonverbal strategy. You'll often notice that more people are smiling towards and at the boss and the boss is smiling at no one. Typically, not always.

Sure. And that's because subordinates just do. Like when I'm with a VIP, I'm like, ha, ha, I'm a grinning fool. And that's because it's seen as like a non-threatening open gesture. So I like smiling upon first impression. I think it's great to have that immediate, like, warmth. But I really caution being careful for smiling in a conversation unless you genuinely feel it. The worst is when you have someone who has that, like, maniac smile in their face.

Yeah. Is that right? Moniical? Yeah. They're like, uh-huh. Yeah. Tell me more. Please.

And you're like, you think they're crazy because they might be crazy. Yes. And so I say to be careful, smiling for attraction. But I also say, don't hold a smile because you think it makes you more likable. because actually that comes across as more inauthentic and more disingenuous when you feel like you should smile so you're holding this fake smile. We would much rather reserve a smile when you actually think something is funny when you're sharing a story about something you actually care about. That is a much better way to interact and it kind of hugs that line. You're not being dominant, right?

You're not not smiling at all. Sure. But you're not being totally submissive and passive. So in attraction cues, it's even more important to only hold that smile for when you really mean it. And for women especially, don't give the guilty. laugh. The guilty laugh. Yeah. What's this? So the guilty laugh is when a man or woman tells a joke or says something that they think should deserve a laugh, but you don't really think it's funny. So you laugh guiltily. Okay. Do you have you seen this before? I'm sure I've done it before too.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it happened. And I can now feel myself doing it. It takes a little bit of practice getting out of. But try to notice yourself doing it. So often, I find that it often happens when people make the same joke I've heard a million times before. Like, for example, I'm from Portland, and so, without a doubt, if I'm at a conference, and I'm like, oh, from Portland, someone maybe one out of every 20 times will go, oh, the land of the hippies. Oh. And I have a choice in that moment. Right.

I can just look at them like I'm annoyed. Or I can be like, not a good way to make friends. Not a good way. Or I can be like, both are terrible. Yeah, they're both terrible. Both are terrible. And so that's an example of, and if you have a name that does this, like some people have names that always have the same joke.

Like Sharona. Is that anyone's name, though? Probably not. It's a good name to have a bad joke. Okay. Like Sharona, but I don't think, that's probably not anyone's name. Have you ever met a shirona? No, no.

Never mind. That was a terrible example. If there's a Sharona out there, I am sure that she has to guilty laugh all the time. But there's other names that this happens with, like movie character or TV character names where someone's like, oh, like Catan is from Hunger Game. Right. Sure. I know Katna's is there.

Kirk, if your name is Kirk, you get Star Trek references. Yeah. Or like, my husband's name is Scott. And if someone says Scotty, people always like, beam me up Scotty. Oh, gosh. Wow. Exactly. That never gets old.

Exactly. So what I would say is if you really want to make sure that people are not mistaking you from attraction, and on bad dates, people are laughing fake or not. It's just the way they build likeability. Or break awkward tension, right? Because laughter sort of processes any kind of tension. Exactly. It works.

It's like a massage for a social interaction. Right. It's lubricant. It's like lubricant. It makes everything go smoother. So in a situation where you're worried I'm sending off the wrong cues or I don't think I'm attractive, I would actually just maybe lightly smile or verbally acknowledge the joke. So instead of, so they say, oh, the land of the hippies like marijuana, ha, ha, ha, whatever they say.

Instead of me being like, which is allowing some kind of traction, I can say, you know, actually, I, whatever my answer is and verbally answer the question as opposed to acknowledging it as a joke. Oh, wow. So you can just take all of the wind out of that one. You can take all the wind out of it. Or you can, so sometimes what I'll say is, I'm actually a recovering Californian. So I counter it with another kind of soft joke. So I don't fake laugh. And they go, oh, really, Californian. I'm like, yeah. So technically in Oregon, I'm the stuck up one. Right. And then when we're in a conversation that actually is more interesting, I didn't have to fake laugh. So that's usually what I say is, oh, actually I'm a recovering California. Yeah. It moves things forward instead of just throwing the ball back to

them. And it keeps it professional. Right. Oh, she thinks I'm funny. Let me keep doing it. Right. And that's what happens is if you fake laugh, they'll keep throwing out those really silly corny jokes. And then all of a sudden, you're like, are we flirting? Wait, what? Like, I am an unwilling participant in this flirting. I do not want this. And then all of a sudden, when you want to leave, they're like shocked. Right. Like she's into me. Yeah. She laughed at everything I said. So do not guilty laugh. Good. Matt's rather you take it verbally. And a lot of guys do this with people that are of higher social status or perceived status. It doesn't result normally in an attraction kind of thing, but it really makes you,

it cements you as the submissive one in the interaction. Yes. I will say, like, I'm, I've been around what my, I consider VIPs. VIPs are usually like scientists that I love. Like, I joke in my book that I'm obsessed with Dan Ariely.

Yeah. Dan knows this story, by the way. I met him for the first time and was a total giggling teenager. Just because he's like my favorite scientist to favorite writer. And so I couldn't even help that, but being more aware of that's our instinct to do it. And it's totally a misogissive gesture at least helps you be like, okay, I don't want to go that way. I'd much

rather have good verbal responses. And VIPs don't actually like that, or they don't want you to make those kinds of laughs. Right. It makes the whole situation more awkward and sort of reminds them like, hey, we're not treating you like a normal person. Exactly. And you're not and, and you're not someone that I could even be friends with. Right. You forget dating. You've written yourself out of the available pool of peers. Exactly. Yeah, which you don't want to do. because normally you want to, in theory, you want to be at the same level as that person or try to get near it. We should have a whole episode on like VIPs because I have a very, I think in business now, like if you want to really meet people and make good connection with them, it's not just like, oh, I met her once or I met him once. So we could talk a lot about VIPs and how to approach VIPs.

Yeah, you're right. There is a delicate science to this because I'll, and I'm not throwing myself in the VIP pool, but to some people who are fans in the show, they might be. be feeling that. There's people who tried, and this, you're right, this is a whole show. There's people who try to be like, I'm going to treat Jordan like an equal. And they say things that are like borderline offensive. They're negs. Yeah. And they're trying to be like, we're buddies.

So I'm going to make fun of Jordan in front of all these people. And I'm like, dude, I don't know you. Yes. That happens to me all the time. I have had. So negging. I don't know if you're familiar with that. I remember it from the like pickup days where you're like, oh, that lipstick looks really good on you.

I think my grandma has that color. Yes, exactly. Or like a neg that I get often, often is, oh, you're, you're nicer looking than your picture. Wow, that's super rude. I'm like, okay, thanks. Yeah. Or someone once told me, oh, you're nicer than you know. Like, you're not nicer looking than your picture.

Your picture's way better than it. Or that, or that. Someone wants to me, I'm nicer than I look or I'm not as bitchy as I look. Oh, you don't. Yeah, that's really. And I do have RBS. I have resting bitch face. So anyway.

I've never seen that on you for the record. Maybe it's because you're always so happy to see me. Thank you. It's true. And so, like, that is a neg that I get a lot. And I think that that's exact, I get it from those kind of people, people who want to be like friends, but we're not friends. My friends would never say that to me. No. Yeah. That's a good point. It's an attempt to be like, we're going to be broie with Jordan. I'm like, my friends don't say mean shit to me. They just don't. We just don't do that to each other unless we deserve it. But you wouldn't know that because we're not friends. I also, I wonder if men sometimes I see like they like are very

physical with each other. Yeah. Like I'll see like men who don't even know each other will like shake their shoulders or like punch each other on their shoulder. I'm like, why would you do that? Does that happen? It does, especially with immature guys or like people who relate on let me think about this. It's an immaturity thing because I used to do it a lot when I was more shy and awkward because if I didn't know what to say, I'd be like, bam. And some people would be like, why did you just hit me really hard? And I was like, I don't know. Guys do this on TV and I don't know what to do with myself. Right. That's high school. But I also know. But I also know. notice there is this physical dominance thing that happens with guys and they'll be like, oh, man, and they'll like, and I don't even want to do this to you because it's so awkward. They'll put your neck in the crook of the arm and drag you in almost like a headlock. Yeah. Nobody should do this to a female, by the way. It is way too aggressive.

But guys will do that to each other. And I'm like, I don't know you. You are literally attacking me. And I'm freaking out right now. That's what I've seen. And I have not seen it done with actual guy friends. I usually see it done with some kind of a difference where I'm like. I'm like, ooh, that suck.

Yeah, that's... So don't do that. Don't do that. No headlocks. No, like... And if you grab someone on the shoulder, you really have to know them well enough. Like, if I do this, this is fine. We're friends.

But if I'm, like, gripping you and shaking you back and forth, again, I would never do that with a female. I would only do that to a guy I've known for a long time. And I'm really happy to see them. So, that's such a good point. So what you should never do nonverbaly, I think, is also pats. So, like, padding is, like, a very submissive. It's like I'm dominant to you. So I don't have you ever seen this happen before, but like even like the kind of like kind of pat on like the solar like, yeah, you're fine little one.

Yeah, that's incredibly awkward. It's very, very demonstration. I've seen actually bosses do it to employees. And I think they do it well meaning. Like they think like I'm acknowledging you nonverbally. Good job. But actually it's very much like an owner and a dog. Yeah.

Never do the pat. Ever, ever, ever. So what is acceptable then? We've basically ruled out almost every single kind of physical touch. Basically, just don't even look at people. Mirror-touch. My favorite is mirror-touch. So mirroring is its own very delicate science because I hate when body language experts are like,

oh, like, if they're sitting like this, then you sit like. So now I have to sit like this now. Now we're having a conversation. It's so awkward and like it's so rarely done right. But I do like the idea of bids. So Dr. John Gottman is a researcher, a marriage and family counselor. And he has this idea of bids that, um, couples especially, but everyone, you offer a request for a bid. So I might say to my husband,

how do I look? That's a bid for affection, for reciprocation, for acknowledgement. He can say, you look great, honey. That's a received bid. And you say, not as bitchy as you do on the cover of your book. Yeah. Zing. Ding ding chah. Yeah. That's not how that. No. But I'm bumch. Yes. I did. Yeah. That is the Chinese equivalent. I do speak a little Mandarin. And so that's what that came from earlier today. Okay. Yeah. So he knows that's a bid or a request.

This happens in friendships and relationships all the time, or even networking, right? Where someone can say, you know, a question or they make eye contact or they make a nonverbal bid. Every time we do an interview, something funny happened and I can't stop laughing. Zitting zing to. Yeah. Still going on that. Tom means tea. It does.

It's a special kind of tea in Chinese. Yes. The ding ding ding. I appreciate you trying to get my brain back into a logical. mode so I can stop laughing and continue the conversation. It's okay. You can always laugh. All right.

So bids. So bids. So I think bids happen all the time. We should be better at recognizing them. And this is something that I preach and teach a lot, which is any small bid that's offered should be taken with gratitude and held and received. So for example, if someone does this to you while they're talking, that's actually a bid. So reaching out and touching my upper arm. Yeah, reaching out touching an arm or, you know, putting an arm on the back or even like, you know, putting an arm on a hand.

if like you're talking, women will do this. Can you do this with me just so? Yeah, sure. So if you hold up both of your hands, like this. Like, let's say that you're holding your glass or networking. Women will sometimes do this where you just shared something really personal with me and I'll hold your hand and go, oh, I'm so sorry. Or, oh, I know this.

It's almost a way of having a hand hug. I like that. And if you're wondering what we're doing, watch the video embedded in the show notes. It's really good. It's a hand hug. It's a, yeah. You can't get that anywhere else. Here's another hand hug.

You want to see it? Yes. That's a hand hug. tuck. That's a hand hug. I wasn't totally sure what to do there. Keep your hand straight and then put your thumb like that. That's a tiny little hand hug. Yeah. Okay. So, so that is anytime someone reaches out and touches, it is a bid for connection, for affection. And I like mirroring that bid with a reciprocal touch. So either you can touch the hand that they touched you with. So if they put their hand in your shoulder, you then like tap my hand.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. That's the way of, I receive it. You receive it. Or you can then later or immediately, then also reach out and given that touch back. So I try to only do touch or haptics as reciprocal bids as a way of saying, I feel you, I hear you, we're on the same page. So how do we know who starts then if we're only reciprocating touch? This is a personal rule of mine. I try not to be the first to break the touch out of respect for people who don't like touch. I have been burned one out of every 30 times. I used to touch first and you'll get someone who really doesn't like it. And it's really. really awkward. Really? I feel like I've just been mostly oblivious of that and or I probably

you know what? No, that's not entirely true. I have done that a lot. And when someone recoils, I usually start marginalizing them in the conversation. So if I'm talking with three or four people and I touch the person next to me and they're uncomfortable with it, I will immediately start talking with other people in the interaction. You punish them for it. Yeah, I basically punish them for it. You take their bid, you throw it on the floor and you step on it. I'm like, look, you're rejected my touch, you are, you're shunned. That's option one. Yeah, that's not nice.

That's option one. So I'll tell you the moment I decided I was never doing this again. There was a moment. I don't think I'm actually sure this for. So I was pitching a television show at a major network. This is when I was living in Los Angeles. And it was a major, major meeting and a big network that you've heard of before. And the booking executive, we had this great meeting at the end of the meeting.

It was a long meeting. It was like an hour. And I was talking about very personal things. And so were they and what they wanted. It ended it really well. And he reaches to say goodbye. And it was one of those moments where I didn't know if he was going for a hand-check or hug. And I felt the meeting went really well.

And so I said, oh, I'm a hugger. And he goes, well, I'm not. Oh, ouch. He just like spiked your bid. And then he stood there limply while I hugged him. Oh, my God. It was. Oh, my goodness.

And I didn't get the show. And I have no idea that's anything to do with it. But I swear. it did. I swear I left the worst last impression. And I was like sweating afterwards. I felt so bad. And I, from that moment on, I was like, I am never first touching. I'm always making sure that I respect it. Because like maybe had like some, you know, people have trauma. Sure. I mean, it was, it was rough. And so I thought to myself, you know what? For anyone who's had any trauma, I'm always going to respect them and let them touch first. I'm surprised. But he said, I'm not. And then you just hugged him anyway. I was already here. I was already. I was like, okay, so put your

hand. I was like, with this. And I was like, oh, I'm a hugger. I'm not a hugger. That's where it was. We were like, already hugging me. That's where it was. And I was literally hugging him while he like limply stood in my arms. Oh, I feel the creepy crawling. It was horrible. And so that's why I say my advice is to try to wait, if you can. But if you're very, very a touchy person and that's how you interact with someone, it could be actually going back to your option one. Maybe that's a way that you can test people out. Yeah, sure. Although, I will say in professional settings touch far, far less than in personal settings. Yes, please.

Because in personal settings, I can always go, whoa, I made that person really uncomfortable. There are virtually no consequences as a result. But if you're closing a real estate deal and you hug someone and they're like, wow, that was incredibly awkward. Now, well, congratulations on you meeting your new boss and totally branding. Exactly. Or me not getting a tail of the show. Right. Because I hugged someone wrong.

Yeah. Well, I guess you're going to have to go crush it on YouTube, which you've done. Screw you, NBC. Or whoever that was. It was. It was an NBC. Okay. Got it.

You know, like, looking at me. I'll tell you what it was later. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm like, oh, yeah, definitely want to know. It's a three letter. Oh, that narrows it down. Yeah, I got it now. Vanessa, thank you so much.

We have hours of this stuff. We're going to do a lot more. Yes. Because every single thing I feel like we create together is freaking gold. I was going to say magical, but then I thought it's too cheesy. The ding ding ding shaw. I'll get a special tea. For sale at Jordan Harbinger.com and ScienceEbel.com.

Thank you. Thank you. All right. I'm always a big fan of you. Get to hang out with a friend and you get to create some great stuff for the Jordan Harbinger show listener family. Great big thank you to Vanessa. Her book, by the way, is called Captivate. You've heard me talk about it before.

I highly recommend going and grabbing that one. She really just knows this stuff upside down. We're going to have a lot more from her. Of course. How could we not? If you enjoyed this one, don't forget to thank Vanessa on Twitter. That'll be linked up in the show notes for the episode. episode at jordan harbinger.com slash podcast. Tweet at me your number one takeaway here from Vanessa Van Edwards.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. Man, I wish I'd started doing Instagram earlier. I just started it. And man, it's just everyone is on there. And it's fun. It is fun. I never thought I would be taking pictures of stuff. But now that they allow videos, I can goof around on there. So be forewarned, there's a lot of content on there that I put out, but there's also a lot of stuff that, you know, if you don't, if you're in it for the content and you don't like my personality, I don't. don't know why you listen to the show, but you're going to get a heavy dose of that on my Instagram. So if you're just in it for the worksheets, stick to that.

Speaking of which, those worksheets are always in the show notes, Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. This episode is produced and edited by Jason DePhilippo. Show notes are by Robert Fogarty. Booking back office, last minute miracles, and flight accommodations to Portland by Jen Harbinger. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. All right, review us in iTunes.

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