The Jordan Harbinger Show - 31: Bob Burg | The Five Secrets of Ultimate Influence

Episode Date: April 19, 2018

Bob Burg (@BobBurg) is the co-author of The Go-Giver Influencer: A Little Story About a Most Persuasive Idea, a parable about the power of genuine influence in business and beyond. What We Discuss with Bob Burg: Disagreement -- especially online -- is more common than persuasion or advancing the conversation. What can we do to change this? How "listening with the back of the neck" helps us find common understanding with others. The seatbelt principle of emotions and how we can work on our ability to react in ways that result in more productive disagreements. Setting the right frames and responding to negative ones. How to say "no" in a way that doesn't end up getting us in trouble later down the line. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

To be empathetic does not necessarily mean you have to understand exactly how they feel. You simply have to understand and be able to communicate that you understand they're feeling something. And that this something is an issue. This something is distressing or disturbing to them and that you are there to help them through that. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. And as always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. On this episode, we'll be talking with my friend Bob Berg.

Bob, man, this guy, he is, he wrote essentially an instant classic called The Go-Giver. And also the Go-Giver leader, him and John David Mann, really, it's like a modern parable for being a great networker and being very giving and everything. And they've just sold hundreds and hundreds of thousands of copies of these books. His latest book, The Go-Giver Influencer, as well, a parable, about achieving what you want by, focusing on the other person's interests in a way that's not self-sacrificial. And these little nuggets of wisdom included in these parables are really useful. And to some of us who might think, okay, I already know all this stuff. And I understand why people think that. I understand why a lot of people ignore things like this. But it goes along with what I said about Dale Carnegie's,

how to win friends and influence people, where we might know the concepts, but whether or not we're applying them is a totally different story. So today, we'll discuss something called the seatbelt principle of emotions and how we can work on our ability to react in ways that results in a more productive disagreement, if you can call it that. We'll also work on stepping into the other person's shoes in a more effective way by something that Bob calls listening with the back of your neck and how this will help us find common understanding, common ground, and frames. I am a huge fan of frames, frame control. You've heard me talk a lot about this type of thing in the past several years if you've been listening to us for a while. We'll talk about setting the right frames,

responding to negative frames, a little bit of an overview there. And last but not least, how to say no in a way that doesn't end up getting us in trouble later on down the line. As usual, there are worksheets for today's episodes. You can make sure you solidify your understanding. Get all the key takeaways here from Bob Berg. That link is in the show notes, as always, at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. Now, here's Bob Berg. Bob, the Go-Giver is one of those books that it's like an instant, I don't know if it was an instant classic or if it's just a classic now that I've noticed it. Not because I noticed it.

That wouldn't make it a classic, but I mean, maybe I noticed it because it became one. Oh, that would have helped. If you noticed it, my friend, that would have helped. You're like the most network guy and one of the most loved guys I've ever seen. So absolutely that would be a part of it. Well, I appreciate you saying as much. and I know that you've written a couple of other go-giver parables here. But before we get into all that stuff, I wanted to dive into something a little bit apropos here, very much apropos,

is a lot of people are disagreeing a lot lately, which is sort of the focus of the new one here. And people are disagreeing a lot lately with political stuff especially. And it becomes almost like you can't even be in the same room with folks. So before we dive into the go-giver influencer content per se, I would love to hear your opinion on this. because I think a lot of people are in the same room and they're talking across each other. It's just not working out. Well, it can be in the same room physically or it can be in the same room in terms of online platforms. I mean, how often do we see on Twitter or Facebook, for example, someone post a thought about a politician or a policy?

Right. And someone writes back, hits send, and it says, you and people like you are disgusting human beings. if you're even human beings. Are you trying to ruin this country? You want people to, I don't know, whatever, the people write back, okay? Yeah. And so when that happens, I would ask the question, does the person who has just been totally slammed and insulted, do they ever write back something like, oh, thank you for

pointing out the error of my ways? I hadn't thought about it before, but now that you've brought it up, I am totally wrong. I am renouncing all my beliefs and joining your side. No, no. Unlakely. Very unlikely. It's just going to, in fact, it's going to have the opposite effect. It's going to have them, keep them even more glued to their position. In these days, people are not defending their principles. They are defending their teams or their sides. And that's dangerous. But the most dangerous part in terms of communication, because remember, people are yelling at each other. People are accusing each other, people are imputing evil intent to others. What they're not doing is they're

not influencing others. They're not persuading others. They're not causing a change in any kind of thought or even advancing the conversation. And so that's a major reason why the timing for this seems to be good. John David Mann, my awesome co-author, you know, we want to kind of do our part to get the world communicating again in a way that is productive. I like this, but it's a very tough challenge that you've decided to adopt for yourself here, because people are disagreeing a ton, especially with the political stuff. No minds are being changed. People are actually making enemies out of one another and shutting down dialogue.

We had Talley Sherritt on the show a couple of weeks ago, and she actually explained to us that the more intelligent people are, that hopefully includes everyone listening to the Jordan Harbinger show here, the better we have. are at actually digging in our heels, rationalizing our current system of beliefs, and then not changing our minds based on that rationalization. So essentially, not only is it really hard to change someone's mind, it's actually harder to change a smart person's mind in many cases, because, like you said, we're sticking up for our team. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why the five laws or principles or secrets, whatever you want to say in the go giver influencer, these are, although it's a business parable,

It also absolutely is appropriate for political discussions as well. And we can go through how to respond to that vitriol on the over the internet, like as we just described, in such a way that not only are you feeling better about yourself and the way you're doing it, but you're able to actually influence and be persuasive. Yeah, I would love to get into that as well, because the parable is always interesting. And whenever anybody writes anything in a parable form, it's always a little easier to digest. actually, I wondered about that. When you're writing a book like this and you come up with a parable to illustrate

certain concepts, do you think that's easier or harder than just writing the concepts? Well, for me, much harder. Fortunately for John David, man, it's not hard at all. He's a brilliant writer. I mean, I'm telling you know, we've been doing this for 10 years now. The first Go-Giver book came out in 2000, the very end of 2007, so really, 2008. and he just keeps getting better at the way he writes a story. So it's, you know, I'm a how-to.

I'm step one, step two, step three. I can write a how-to book. Anyone can write a how-to book. You write down what you know. Writing a parable is a whole different, different thing. And so without John is the lead writer and storyteller, I'd be lost. But, you know, there's so many people that, you know, both of us know, Jordan and who write these parables all the time and they keep coming up.

But I, you know, let someone like a John Gordon or Chris Widener or Andy Andrews or some of these people, I don't know how they do it because to me, because these are people who can write how to and parables. Yeah. So, yeah, so I don't know. So to me, it's a lot harder than, so I'm very fortunate that I have a great co-author. Yeah, I think coming up with any sort of storyline to illustrate concepts such as these can be difficult. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think it's actually important for people to realize that the way that we program our brains isn't just by reading a concept and going, great. All right, step one, master our emotions. Got it.

Got to master my emotion. It's like, okay, how does this actually work? So let's get into that. You do have what you call the seatbelt principle of emotions. And I would love to give people something to chew on. Sure. Well, first it's understanding that we have got to be. be able to master our emotions if we want any chance of being able to take a potentially

negative situation or person and turning it into a win for everyone involved. When we don't, when we allow our buttons to be pushed and cause ourselves to be frustrated or disgusted or angry or what have you, not only are we not part of the solution, we're just as much a part of the problem as they are. And we know this, yet, you know, we allow ourselves to have that that happen. Why? Well, because we're human beings and as human beings. Because I'm right and they're wrong.

Dang it. That's why. Yeah. Well, exactly. And we're, you know, we're emotional creatures. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. It's how we're programmed. And we don't suggest that anyone be some sort of computer or robot without emotion.

Emotions are a great part of life. They make life worthwhile. They bring us joy. No, we're just saying, make sure you. Master your emotions as opposed to your emotions mastering you. One of my great friends, Dandes Kumachi, she said, and I love how she says this, and that is, by all means, take your emotions along for the ride, but make sure you are driving the car. So yes, take your emotions with you, but make sure they're in the passenger side, okay?

They're safely seatbelt fastened and they're tucked in while you're driving the car. Otherwise, as one of the mentors in the story, Judge Henshaw tells her protege Jackson, when you allow your emotions to drive your car, you're actually at the mercy of a drunk driver. That's interesting. I can follow that logic as well because you're really not using your logical brain. You're not navigating in the way that you should be. And you're also allowing by sort of definition our emotions can steer us in a way where we go, oh, I wish I had not done that. Now I've got to fix that. Sure.

And it can be very problematic. But how do we start to master our emotions? Because it's really easy to say, all right, step one, master your emotions. It's like, great. Okay, I won't get mad next time somebody says, insults everything I hold dear and true about the nation I love. I'll just stay calm. It's easier or said than none. Yeah, we know how that works, right?

So the first step is realizing that there's a different way of doing things. And so the person who just blows up and says, well, that's just me, take it or leave it. well, they're probably not going to care about mastering their emotions, and they're not going to take steps. But for those who do, here's what I suggest doing. Picture in your mind, a time that someone has done something just as we've described. They've insulted you or they've said or done something that just really ticked you off and that you lost your cool. You had your buttons pushed and you lost it. And, you know, think about how that feels afterwards because, you know, it's difficult to feel good after you've lost your head.

Okay. And so picture that. But now what I want you to do is picture something different. Imagine that this person said or did that same thing. Nothing's changed as far as that. But now what I want you to do is imagine that you just handled it perfectly. That you just you are comfortable. You are calm.

You are in control. That you said the right thing. And don't worry about those words right now. We'll get to those later. But that you just handle it in such. a way that you totally diffused the whole situation. Now, you know, I think about this. Orison Swett Martin, who wrote the classic Peace, Power, and Plenty, back in 1909. Here's what he said about this. Self-control is the very essence of character. To be able to look a person straight in the

eye, calmly and deliberately, without the slightest ruffle of temper under extreme provocation, gives a sense of power which nothing else can give, to feel that you are always. not sometimes master of yourself gives a dignity and strength to character it buttresses it it supports it on every side as nothing else can so picture what it feels like when you do that now once you've got this I want you to picture what will happen in the future you will come across that annoying person or that person who insults you or that person who says something contrary to your beliefs about, you know, what's best for this country or something that really would bother you. And I want you to, again, go through picturing it and handling it just like

Orson Sweat and Marden said, and just like we described a few moments ago, really feel the feeling, run through it all, listen calmly, don't interrupt, feel calm, diffuse the situation by saying the, you know, just exactly what needs to be said. And then I want you to keep practice. it because just like an astronaut before they go up into space on a mission, they will run through hundreds and hundreds of simulations so that by the time they get into space and heaven forbid something bad happens up there. They've already been there. They've done that. They can respond perfectly right away because they've seen it a hundred times. Now, we might say, well, but but being in space and doing those simulations isn't the exact same, just like imagining

the situation, handling it beautifully, and actually having it happen, isn't the same thing. No, but you know what, Jordan, you know this, of course. It's close enough. The subconscious mind cannot distinguish between that which is real and that which is being suggested to it again and again and again. So when you do this and you don't have to do it 100 times, but just start practicing it, start doing it. And once the situation comes up in real life and you do handle it beautifully, I want you to just

feel great about it and really think about that and know that if you can do it right that time, you actually could do it right every time. Now, that said, you won't because we're human beings and we're all going to mess up from time to time. But I'll tell you what, if you can nail 98% of the time, then you're making a significant difference in your life. And I can tell you firsthand, because I had real anger issues back in the day. This is something that I learned how to do. It's something I practiced and I turned a weakness into a strength. And it made a significant difference in my life and it can in anyone else's who will practice this. So basically we're kind of, we're kind of doing reps. We're retraining our brain. Exactly. And we're doing reps. Yeah.

Yeah, we're doing reps. Like, all right, this is really going to tick me off when this happens. So just visualize it, go through it. Okay. And my reaction is this, this, this and this. And then, of course, when it really happens, there's going to be an emotional response anyway. But maybe we can blunt it a little bit with the idea that we've, okay, we practiced this in our head. We knew this is going to be a thing. And now I don't have to overreact and flip out and get all indignant and then say, send that text message off or say that thing because I've already visualized this and we don't have to deal with that. Once you start practicing this and getting proficient at it, I'm telling you it'll make such a difference not only in how you feel about yourself, but in how

influential you are because remember to the degree that you can master your own emotions and help other people to work effectively within theirs that's the degree that your influence goes sky high so once we sort of match somebody or at least maybe we don't match them maybe they're emotional and we're not we can gain a lot of respect by going all right i'm listening to you i'm and maybe in your head you're just fuming slowly but you can take control of it i always respect people who do that because I feel like they're in a better position of self-control. And I think at some level, we're all kind of looking for that. So when someone can stay grounded in the face of that, I am always very impressed.

And that comes with a level of respect, even if our opinions differ. And exactly right. And that's why we have so much respect for that person who, just as Orson Sweat Martin said, right, who how many sayings are there about people who can keep their heads about them when everyone around them is losing theirs? We naturally have a respect for that person and that person has influence. Can we define what influence really is? Because that's one of those words that gets tossed around a ton.

And I want to make sure that people are clear on what that really means so that we're not talking across each other. Oh, I think that's so very important. Checking our premises make sure we're coming from the same definition is always. All right. Well, you know, on a very, very basic level, Jordan, influence can be defined. as simply the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action, usually within the context of a specific goal. That's its definition.

However, I don't believe that that is its substance or its essence. The essence of influence is pull, pull as opposed to push, as in how far can you push a rope? And we know the answer is not very far, at least not very fast, or, or, or, you know. very effectively, which is why great influencers don't push. You know, you rarely hear someone say, wow, that Nancy or that Dave, he is so influential. He has a lot of push with people. Oh, right. He sure is pushy.

Right. We just, we'll follow him anyway. No. They say he's influential. He has a lot of pull. And that, because that's what influence is. It's pull. It's an attraction.

Great influencers attract people first to themselves and then to their ideas. And I think the best ones, the greatest influencers, who we would call the genuine influencers, they really tap into a principle. And I believe this was Dale Carnegie's underlying principle in his classic, How to Win Friends and Influence People. To me, it was the most brilliant phrase of a brilliant book. And it's where he wrote, ultimately, people do things for their reasons, not our reasons. So the great influencers constantly asking themselves questions to check their own intent. How does what I'm asking this person to do? How does it align with their goals, with their needs, their wants, their desires?

How does what I want this other person to do? How does it align with their values? And when we ask ourselves these questions thoughtfully, intelligently, genuinely, authentically, not as a way to manipulate another human being into doing our will, but as a way to build everyone in the process, now we've come a lot closer to earning that person's commitment as opposed to depending on some type of compliance, which at best is never sustainable. I think that you brought up a kind of an interesting point that I was going to ask, isn't this sort of a clever, some people might think, and I obviously know you, and I know that this stuff works really well and is also. a win-win. But a lot of people might think, okay, put whatever sugar-coding you want on this, but this is some kind of clever manipulation to get what you want. You're not really asking yourself what other people want or what their alignment is. You're just doing that because you

know that as a technique it works. But it sounds like that's not what you don't agree with that. No, but I think it's a natural question for people to have, especially if they, if, you know, their belief system or if their experiences are that people who, who seem interested in them have done nothing but take advantage of them or manipulate them. So it's, you know, it's certainly a legitimate question. Influence is, is a principle. It's a law, if you will, or it's sort of like gravity, like the physical law of gravity. Gravity works. Now, is it good or bad? Well, neither. It just is. It results in good when it keeps us from floating aimlessly up into space. On the other hand, it manifests itself as bad when falling off a seventh-story building,

Okay. It's kind of the same with influence. Influence can be used for good or can be used for evil. So what we do is we break it up into two different forms. There is certainly manipulation, right? And there's persuasion. Both a manipulator and a persuader both understand human nature. They understand human motivation, what drives people, what moves people. You could say the two are cousins, but they're, you know, one's the evil. cousin manipulation and one is the good cousin persuasion. Perhaps the best explanation I ever read about the difference between the two is from a book I read in 1980, published in 1987 by Dr. Paul W. Sweats called The Art of Talking so that people will listen, though it was much more about listening than it was about talking. And here's what he said. He wrote that manipulation aims at control, not cooperation. It does not consider the good of the other party. It results in a win-lose situation. In direct contrast to the manipulator, the persuader always seeks to enhance the good of the other party. As a result, people respond

more responsibly, act responsibly because they're treated as responsible, response able, self-directing individuals. See, Jordan, a manipulator may not necessarily want to or intend to hurt you, but if that's what it takes for them to get their way, they will. With a persuader, that can never, ever happen. Because in order for them to feel good about the situation, they've got to know that you benefited as well, that you feel good about it as well. And this is why we say that a, you know, a manipulator can have employees, but never a team. They can have customers, but rarely loyal customers and hardly ever referral customers.

They can even, hey, a manipulator can even have a family who they love. and who loves them, but rarely a happy functional family. So not only is it good life skill to be a persuader rather than a manipulator, it's actually good business as well. That's interesting because I think a lot of people go, well, you know, the manipulation part or this, maybe not even a majority, but there's definitely a certain contingent of people that think I just need to get people to do what I want and that'll be for their own good and then sort of long term, everyone will realize that.

But that's not really how that's wrong. That's a rationalization. And as you know, when we rationalize, we're simply telling ourselves rational lies. Ooh, I like that. I saw mid-sentence where you were going. Yeah. I like it. And, you know, and I'm sure I didn't make that.

I must have heard that somewhere because I'm not that clever. I don't come up with those things like that. So I'm sure that's been around. But, you know, but really it's true. And so it doesn't matter that we might want to think that we're doing it for some greater good. But no, the fact is, well, I say, you know, the fact is. Usually when someone says the fact is, what they're saying is my opinion is.

But in my... The fact is, I think this way. Right. Exactly. In my opinion, it really has to do with tapping into really what that other person wants, needs, and desires, which is really what sales, what sales. What's selling is all about. And influence and persuasion is sales. On the other hand, manipulation is being a...

thief. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. You really are. You're sort of tricking people. It's like you're conning people out of their attention or effort instead of encouraging them. Exactly.

Like you said, persuading. I can't think of a better word than that. You also suggest, you and John both suggest that you should listen with the back of your neck. Right. What does that mean? Yeah. That comes from the law number two. which is to step into the other person's shoes.

But that's easier said than done, right? I mean, it sounds easy, right? But remember, most of us have different size feet. So stepping into their shoes may not be. In other words, we all come from different beliefs, different ways of seeing the world. Our belief, and a belief is a subjective truth. It's how we see the world, which doesn't mean it's how anyone else does. And so our belief system is a combination of upbringing, environment, schooling,

television shows, movies, media, you know, the whole thing. It's how we see the world. But we tend to think as human beings that most other people see the world basically the way we do. I mean, that's only natural, right? Because it's how we see it. And they don't. And we don't.

And so it's very, it can be very difficult to understand another person's intent, to understand another person's likes and dislikes. We think what we find valuable about this product or service must be what they find invaluable about this product or service. And that's, that's one of the biggest spots where salespeople, you know, go awry. They're selling based on what they like, not what the prospector or customer does. So when we say, listen with the back of your neck, what we're saying is if we have different size feet, if we don't know what this other person thinks or feels, the only way we can possibly know is by asking questions and then listening. And what the coach, one of the mentors, there were two

mentors in the story. One was a former coach and one was a former judge. And what the judge tells Gillian, his protege, is to listen not just with your ears and not just with your nose, but with your whole being, with the back of your neck. And I was just to everyone listening, try this. Try this first with someone who you're comfortable with because it can be a different feeling when you do it. But actually listen, focus with the back of your neck. Just like when you're doing a curl, you actually do it with your bicep, right? Or you're doing abs and you're actually doing it with your abs. Really place the focus on the back of your neck when you're listening.

And what it does is it puts your entire being into the conversation focused on this person. Not only will you get a lot more information and really get to know more about what's going on with this person, but that person is going to feel listened to. and they're going to feel good about you. Okay, so essentially, I can see myself doing this leaning in way too far and then having focused on the back of my neck instead of what the person was saying. So maybe I should try this with somebody who's not going to think I'm a crazy person, at least the first few times around.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Do it once or twice, you know, with someone you're comfortable with, practice, and then go out and do it with others. No, you'll see. It happens very quickly, like most of this. And the neat thing is, you know, we say, once. you, you can master the kind of, you know, influence, persuasion, people's skills we're talking about, well, you suddenly have more self-confidence, you become better like, more respected, highly trusted,

far more influential, but you don't have to master it. Just once you begin to become proficient at it, which actually takes a very, very short period of time. I love these persuasion skills and the practical things like this. And I've spoken before on the show about things like frames where you set a certain frame. And one of your pieces of advice in the go-giver influencer is set the frame and be ready to reset the other person's negative frame. I'd love to talk about framing and resetting other people's frames for that matter. This is probably the most important part only because when you set a frame properly or reset someone else's negative frame properly, you're 80% there to the results that you that you desire. What is a frame? Well,

Again, let's define it. A frame is simply the foundation from which everything takes place. Can I give you a very quick example of one of the most powerful frames I've ever seen? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. I'm in a Dunkin' Donuts. And if you know me, you know I'm always in Dunkin' Donuts. Drinking coffee, reading every so often, eating a donut, though I try not too often.

But there was a little kid there. There was probably two, two and a half years old. And he's, you know, a toddler. And he's running around the restaurant. And suddenly his mom and dad call him back over to the table. So he starts to run back over. And suddenly he falls. He takes a spill on the floor.

Now, he was not hurt. You could tell. But you could also tell he was very, very surprised. He was shocked. This was not what he expected. So what does he do? Well, the first thing is he looks at his mom and dad, the two people he trusts most in the world to get their opinion, their commentary, right,

on what just took place. Now, I totally believe that had his parents gotten panicky or upset or run over and, oh, no, are you okay? He would have started crying, but they just handled it so beautifully. They walked over. They had a smile on their face. They began to applaud. And they said, oh, that looks like so much fun. What a great trick.

And immediately, he began laughing. Now, what the parents did is they said. a productive frame from which he could operate. And that's the same thing we can do whenever we have any kind of interpersonal dealing with another person. Now, it could be as simple as greeting that person with a, you know, inside out from the heart smile or saying something that helps them to feel relaxed. Or it could be if you're with a group of people and someone walks in and you can tell they'd

like to join your group, you kind of open up your body language so they feel welcome. That's, you know, that's pretty easy to set a frame like that. The question is, what about when someone comes to the situation already in a negative frame? Now we've got to be able to reset it. Quick example, I was pulling into a parking space in a parking lot and I was not paying attention as I should have been. And I nearly clipped a guy as he was getting out the driver's side of his car. Now, I stopped Oh, yeah. I stopped in plenty of time, but, you know, he was startled, he was shaken up. Mainly he was ticked.

And the look he gave me, I got to tell you, Jordan, the nastiest look, his face was covered with ugly. I mean, he was really mad, okay? Yeah. And it was an angry frame. Now, I'm not judging him. It was my fault, actually, and different people react. He didn't respond. He reacted, and people react different ways of different stimuli.

And that was his reaction. Now, he was in an anger frame. Had I bought into that frame, I could have gone, you know, what are you going? He'd have gone, watch where you're going. Watch where you're going. Now, I don't know about you, but I've never seen those situations end up in a good way. No, I don't see two frames dinging into each other like that and creating magic. No, and personally, I don't want to be involved in anything like that if I don't have to.

But what I did immediately, okay, by responding instead of reacting, what I did was I I immediately put up my hand in a waving motion. I put a smile of friendly apology on my face. And through the windshield, I went, sorry. And he immediately responded by saying, no problem. Right. That was it. We just changed frames right there.

Instead of buying into his frame, we sort of reset it. Instead of adversaries, now we're allies. That's really what we're talking about. So rather than buy into another person's frame, you know, it's the person. who, let's say you have to speak to the supervisor, for whatever reason, the front office, front desk person, rather, wasn't able to help. The manager's name, supervisor's names of Mr. Jones, he has to deal with people 10 times a day who either want something or have a problem. He comes out, yeah, he knows he has to be polite, but he's ready to quote the rulebook, but he comes out looking for a knockdown, drag out fight, basically, because that's usually what he gets, the person insults him, offends him. But instead, he comes out, and you're there.

but you have a smile in your face. You take a step toward him with your arm outstretched with a smile. You say, hi, Mr. Jones, Jordan Harbinger, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to come out and see me. I know you're very busy. Boom. You have just, again, you've reframed it from two people who have some sort of issue with each other and are going to try to defeat the other person to two people who are just two good people looking for a solution that's going to work for everyone.

You've now reframed this into becoming that customer who he wants to please. Right, because nobody wants to play into a negative frame. Everybody wants to play into a positive frame. So if you take a positive frame, thank you for your time. I'm really grateful to be here. No one's going to go, no, don't be thankful for my time. You should be annoyed that we're having this interaction. They're like, okay, well, if this person's going to be positive and upbeat about this,

I have to be that way because we sort of play to characteristics that people want to believe about themselves. Yeah, that's a great point. Absolutely. Yeah, I can understand that. Okay. And this sort of bleeds nicely into communicating with empathy and sort of focusing on relating your feelings to the other person, setting up the types of feelings that you want to relate to the other person, maybe so you can stay away from some of the, some of the negativity that might be inherent in an interaction that might be unpleasant. by nature? Yeah, this is communicate with tact and empathy. And, and you think about it,

tack, and my dad has always defined tact as the language of strength. And I've always felt that was so accurate, because again, just like the Orison Sweat-Martin quote, it's that person who can think first, who can consider the other person and who speaks in a way that is much more likely to have someone be less defensive and more accepting, that's the person who, again, is influential. That's the person who has strength. TAC allows us to be able to correct or critique or, dare I say, constructively criticize. Not that we want to do any of those things, but we're talking about the real world, not some fantasy world. And there are times we need to be able to, again, to help someone see a different way, a more effective way, a more productive way of doing things. So,

tact makes it so that this person not only is is not defensive toward us and resistant to our ideas, but they become open to us and hopefully more accepting of our ideas. That's tack. Now, empathy, which is kind of its partner, empathy, which is defined as the identification of, or identification with or vicarious experiencing of another person's feelings. Again, just like the stepping into another person's shoes. we don't know what they're thinking, right? Well, here, with empathy,

we don't necessarily know what they're feeling. However, to be empathetic does not necessarily mean you have to understand exactly how they feel. You simply have to understand and be able to communicate that you understand their feeling something. And that this something is an issue.

This something is distressing or disturbing to them and that you are there to help them through that. And when you're able to do that, wow, you're, you know, you're really nine steps ahead of the game in a 10-step game. Last but not least, you've got this concept of letting go of having to be right. And this is something that I think a lot of people struggle with because some people, one, we were pretty darn attached to wanting to be right. The other half of us might think, well, I can't pretend that I don't care or do I need to pretend that I don't care? is that the same thing as not wanting or not caring whether or not I'm right? And whenever we battle egos like this, trying to not be attached to being right is really,

really, really difficult. I mean, in the moment, it is very hard to do. And you can do all the reps you want about not being reactive emotionally, but you still might want to be right, chances are. Sure. Well, and by the way, letting go of having to be right doesn't mean you don't want to be right. It doesn't mean you don't care about being right. It doesn't mean you don't prepare and do everything you can to be right and to be able to move that person to the desired action.

No, it just simply, and you hit right on the word attachment. It means you're not emotionally attached to having to be right. But here's a thing. And just like with all our parables where we have five laws or five secrets or five principles, there are always four that sort of go together. and then the last one, the fifth one, is typically very counterintuitive sounding and seems to almost be opposite, right? And yet, when you, it's what we call the four fingers and a thumb. And when you, but when you really dig deep, it actually makes sense.

And so in this case, letting go of having to be right, paradoxically, will make you more right and much more influential. And here's why. There are basically two reasons. One is when you let go of having to be right, you go into learning mode. So rather than just taking your side and just disavowing anything that doesn't already agree with you, right? Rather than having that confirmation bias where you only let things register that already confirm or agree with your already held beliefs or biases, is you go into learning mode and you're able to see the other person's point. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

Absolutely not. But here's the thing. They say you don't truly understand an issue until you can argue it from the other side. And this is why it makes you so much more effective. I tell people, if you are a political conservative, watch MSNBC sometimes. if you're a political progressive, watch Fox sometimes. Don't watch them just to insult them or be snarky or look at all the reasons why they're wrong, although you're also not watching it in order to agree.

Just watch it so you can understand where they're coming from, so you can understand why they're thinking as they think. Okay. And so that's going to provide you with a lot more information. The other thing it does is when you approach a disagreement like with someone, they understand that you're a person not just looking to be right even if you're not, but that you're a person who is seeking truth. And when they understand that you're seeking truth, they're going to be much more likely

to do the same thing. Remember at the beginning is when we began talking. We looked at the Facebook and Twitter situation. where people post something really horrible and then the person, you know, responds in kind and so forth. Can we go back to that and look at how we could use these five principles in order to actually be more persuasive? I kind of did want to come full circle with the political stuff because it's not just on Facebook or social media. I mean, this stuff is happening at family parties and people are writing in and asking me about this stuff all the time because this is happening at Easter

dinner. Someone gets asked to leave and it's like, okay, come on, people. it together. Exactly. So the following is going to be just as applicable on social media as an in-person family dinner. So let me utilize Facebook right now just as one platform. But again, this works anywhere and everywhere. Let's say again, somebody posts something on Facebook and another person writes back and again says, you people who think this way are just the worst scum of the earth. What are you trying to do? You don't care about people, blah, whatever. Okay, so you control your emotions instead of just writing back right away and insulting them, which is going to do nothing for anyone, okay?

You try first to see their side and where they might be coming from. And the chances are, other than the few outliers on either side who really, most people want what's good for people. They just have a different way of seeing what that right way is. So you're stepping into their shoes. You're going to reset the frame here. you're going to speak with tact and empathy and then number five you're going to let go of having to be right but let's put that aside for right now so the person has just hurled an invective that it was just horrible so here's what you write back something along the lines of you know let's say his name is Dave Dave I've got to tell you I really admire the passion you have for this topic and it's obvious you really care about people so boom you've just reset the frame right there Now what you want to say is this.

Like you, I want to live in a country where people are able to, whatever it is that, you know, the point is being made that you'd want. Okay. And then you'd say, I think our only sticking point or our only area of disagreement is actually what the best way is to go about making that happen. now when you frame it like that there's a couple things that are going to happen as far as this person's concerned in believe it or not i've had people you know apologize and people who i've taught this to have had people apologize for the way they they uh you know framed a uh uh a saint you know the way they talk to that person but let's just say this person so far out of it that they're not going to apologize for anything here's what we've got to understand whether we're at a family dinner

or somewhere in public or online. It's not just the other person who's part of this. There are many people who are looking on. They're not saying anything, but they're observing. And they're looking to see where this argument or discussion is going to go. There are some people who are very far to the left and very far to the right and they're never going to change. It doesn't matter what's said.

But that's not most people. Most people are somewhere in the middle. They're either in the middle or they're kind of on one side or they're kind of on the other side, but they can be persuaded. They are open. Here's what they're looking at. They're looking first for the logical words, the actual right word. So we've got to obviously know our topic. But they're also on an emotional level, they're looking to see who is more likable.

who can they relate to? Who could they ask a question to without fearing that their head's going to get bitten off? Because they don't totally agree, right? And so when we persuade or influence in a political type of discussion, let's realize it's not just that other person. It's everyone else there who's part of this sphere of influence, if you will. So, all right, you're a busy person. You've got a lot of influence and persuasion tactics under your belt. I would love to hear this from you because I get this question a lot in my inbox.

I have my own way of doing things, maybe less tactful and empathetic than what you would do. How do we use these techniques and ideas and concepts to say no to requests in a way that's kind and preserves the relationship, but also is effective? Because I think a lot of people, we are used to saying yes to everything, especially if we own a business or something like that. We want to say yes because we don't want to get rid of or lose an opportunity. However, as we become more in demand, our time becomes more in demand. We have to say no, but we're afraid to. We don't want to build a relationship and then poke a hole in it with a no. Or we don't want to be seen as disagreeable in some way.

Do you have any way that we can apply what we've learned here today to that particular situation? I believe this is one of the most important skills we need to learn. Because the fact is, as we get busier and busier, we are going to be asked by, more people to do more things. And it's appropriate. That's fine for them to ask. And we're often very appreciative that they do. But we need to typically say no a lot more than we say, yes, just in order to be productive and do the things we need to do. There are different ways that are taught how to do this. I think some of them are less productive than others. I've heard people teach, and I'm not meaning to disrespect anyone who teaches in a way that I disagree with. It's just my

opinion. I've heard it said, in fact, it's become very politically correct to say, well, no is a complete sentence. And I've heard people hear that and nod their heads in empowerment as though they're going to do that from now on. And my question would be, really, is that what you're going to do? Someone asks you a question because they respect you and they or so they ask you to serve on a committee. And you just, for whatever reason, you don't want to serve on this committee. That's fine. Are you really just going to say no. Is that really a complete sentence? No, of course not. First, it's not nice. Secondly, you're going to, as you said, you're going to turn a person who's a friend into an enemy and they're never going to ask you to do anything and you may want to do something with them in the

future. But mainly, you're not going to say no like that because it's incongruent with your values of treating people with kindness and respect. So I don't believe that's the best way to do it. There's also a teaching that says, well, kind of tell a little fib. Just say, well, I would, but I'm too busy. The challenge with that, Jordan, is that we know it's not that we're too busy. It's that we just don't want to do it. Right. Yeah.

As human beings, we don't have the time to do anything. We make the time to do what we value most. And so when we, when we fib, we kind of feel a little yucky about it. But here's the other thing. The other person's used to hearing people say they don't have time. So they're going to answer this objection, probably in a very persuasive way. and now you're painted into a corner where you either have to admit that you really just don't want to do it and you were you were lying. They're going to resent you.

You're not going to feel good about it. Or in order to save face, you have to say yes and do the thing you don't want to do. I also don't believe that's a good option. So here's a way of saying no in a way that honors this person and again is effective and respects your boundaries. Again, you're asked to serve on a committee. And you simply say, thank you so much. While it's not something I'd like to do, please know how honored I am to be asked. Okay.

Or depending upon your own style, you might say it a little differently. You might say, thank you so much for asking. While it's not something I choose to do, please know how deeply honored I am just to be asked. Boom. What you did is you first, you were very kind. You honored that person. You let them know you were honored to be asked, but you did say no. and you didn't present an excuse.

You didn't give them anything to hold on to an answer. Now, if they are the type that kind of, you know, they take it to that next step and say, oh, come on, but please, we really need you to do this. You simply listen without defensiveness. You don't interrupt and you just have, you know, positive energy. And you wait till they're finished. And then you simply say, again, I thank you for asking. It's not something I would like to do.

Thank you, though. Boom. That's it. And be willing to do that. And it will set you free. and you'll retrain people to know that they can ask you, but that when you say no, the answer's no. I love this because you're right.

It doesn't give them anything to latch on to. It doesn't because whenever people say no or I don't have time, especially when I do this, I try to think, okay, what am I really saying? Because we all have the same amount of time. What I'm saying is I'm not willing to prioritize this. So whenever anybody else says that to me, I just realize, okay, what they're saying is I'm not willing to prioritize this. And it's kind of hard not to let that hurt your feelings in some way if you have feelings attached to it, which we all do.

Yeah. Sure. I love this. Bob, I know you got to run. Thank you so much for your time with us today and sharing your persuasive and influential techniques. Always a pleasure to speak with you, Jordan. Thank you. Great big thank you to Bob Berg.

The book title, the new book, is The Go-Giver Influencer. You can find two free sample chapters at the gogiver.com. That's where he's got all of his good stuff there. If you enjoyed this one, don't forget to thank Bob on Twitter. That'll be linked up in the show notes for this episode, which can, as always, be found at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. I'd love it if you'd tweet at me your number one takeaway here from Bob. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram.

And if you want to learn how to apply everything you learned here today from Bob, make sure you grab the worksheets in the show notes, also at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. This episode was produced and edited by Jason DePhilippo. Show notes are by Robert Fogarty. Booking Back Office Last Minute Miracles, always by Jen Harbinger, and I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Leave us a review in iTunes, and please share the show with other people, those you love, and even those you don't, frankly,

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