The Jordan Harbinger Show - 323: Laura Gassner Otting | Living Your Limitless Life

Episode Date: March 10, 2020

Laura Gassner Otting (@heylgo) is a motivational keynote speaker and the author of Limitless: How to Ignore Everybody, Carve your Own Path, and Live Your Best Life. What We Discuss with Laura Gassner Otting: Everyone has a scorecard that defines success, and it's totally limiting you -- even if you don't realize you have one. Why, when you don't define success in your own terms, finding your purpose and carving your own path becomes impossible. How you can learn to ignore the rules that created your limits. What you can do to align your energies with your actions. How to do work that actually satisfies and fulfills you, regardless of the unsolicited opinions of others. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://jordanharbinger.com/323 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with producer Jason DeFilippo. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. We want you to become a better thinker. If you're new to the show, we've got episodes with spies and CEOs, athletes and authors, thinkers and performers, as well as toolboxes for, skills like negotiation, public speaking, body language, persuasion, and more. So if you're smart and you like to learn and improve, you'll be right at home here with us. In today's conversation, Laura Gassner-auding, she caught my attention because of her no-b-s way of communicating and backing up her ideas and skills with real practical strategies you can use in order to carve your

own path, whether that means a pivot in your career and your job, or something new entirely. We'll discuss why we sometimes make ourselves miserable because of the way we define success, and chase happiness instead of fulfillment, and what we can do instead. This is a really useful episode, especially if you're wondering if what you're doing with your life right now is really going to be something that fills you up at the end of the day, or if you're just chasing the success dragon, so to speak. If you want to know how I manage to book all these great people and manage my relationships using systems and tiny habits, check out our six-minute networking course, which is free over at jordanharbinger.com slash course.

By the way, most of the guests on the show that you'll hear, they actually subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So come join us, and you'll be in great company. All right, here we go with Laura Gassner-auding. So I normally don't ever start a show this way, but I happen to re- Yeah, never a good sign, by the way, the host says that. You said, your audience is primarily made up of millennials and gen Xers who want to improve their lives, true. They are educated, they are affluent, and they have choices, true. But why does somebody who's educated, affluent, and able to pivot listen to a show that engages on topics about improving their lives? And you say, because with all this success, they aren't actually deeply happy.

And I'm like, well, I'm not sure I agree about that. Because so people who are happy then, conversely, go, I don't need to improve myself because I'm deeply happy. So I'm never going to work on myself. Yeah, I think a lot of people think that they're really happy and they don't want to do anything and they're fine. There's that. The thing is happiness is a temporary state. Oh, I agree with that. I can be happy if you give me a chalk of cake right now, right?

The woman who walked in with Girl Scout cookies, that looked pretty good. I'd be pretty happy. I think we could take her. We could take her in two of us, definitely, for sure. But I think that you can be happy in a temporary state, and then we hit these milestones, right? Maybe it's an age that has a zero at the end of it. For me, it's the fours and the nine, right? And you have those like, oh, God, I have another year, and then it's going to be a big five or a big zero.

Am I in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? Am I married to the right person? Am I living in the right house? still have the right job. And those are those moments of self-assessment when you're like, yeah, this is what I was supposed to be doing. I did all the right stuff. I went to the right schools. I got the right job. I got the right title. And I created the life that on paper looks really good, right? It's supposed to make me happy. It's like a look good goal. One of those goals you put on the

wall on our vision boards. Is it weird that I don't have those thoughts? Like I'm like, oh, 40. People will finally take me seriously, which by the way. Well, you look 12. I think that's part of the problem. Yeah, because I, when I was 30, I was like, oh, no one's going to be like, you're not enough to be a business owner. Now, of course, all of these supposed entrepreneurs are like literally 11 or 19 or 22. So now I'm the old guy, which is good, but it hasn't really worked for, like, people taking me seriously. Yeah, I think that's why you keep your hair short on the sides, because I think it's really just gray. It's edgy. Oh, yeah. No, it's also great. It's great. It is great. I've exposed you. Yeah, I don't care. I'm exposed.

Literally, I went to, God, I shouldn't say it. I went to get an emergency haircut yesterday because my sides were really grown out. And I was like, damn, I look over. Yeah, they're going to think I'm old. I'd like to think you got the haircut for me. You wanted to like up your game. No, no. I've barely remembered I even had this until about 10 minutes before you showed up. Well, I was late, so, you know, I got five minutes on you there. But I think, here's the thing. I think that when we spend our lives pursuing success as identified by everybody else, we get to a place where we're like, on paper, it looks perfect. And then we're like, well, I don't know, why am I not happy? Why am I reading all these self-help books? Why do I go on Instagram? Why do I look at memes of girls in flower crowns staring out into the sun? Because there's something that's not there. And that's, we have this middle-age crisis or a quarter-age crisis or we have, you know, boomers that aren't letting go with leadership because they're so afraid of it was over the other side of the cliff that they're afraid to do it.

Over the hill, if you will. Over the hill. So I don't know. You don't have those ideas. You don't have those thoughts. That's great. It's probably because you have at every turn in your career made specific decisions about things you wanted to do. I mean, you're a podcaster. You spend your days interviewing people about subjects you find interesting. So you have always pursued curiosity. you've always pursued interest. You've never shied away from, here's a subject I don't know, here's a topic I don't know. So that in general, that's going to lead you into places where you're constantly growing and changing and learning. It's when people aren't and they're just pursuing the title or the title on the job or the title of the car or the title of the house, whatever that

title may be. They're not stretching themselves. Not asking, is it something that's really interesting to me? Or is it just something that someone else told me to pursue? Sure. You just, you can't be insatiably hungry for someone else's goals. And I think a lot of people are in a place where they've been handed somebody else's goals early on. You've spent your career pursuing your own and finding interesting things. So it's not surprising to me that you don't have this. Well, that's good. I was wondering about that because, I mean, I did end up a lawyer because, you know, one aunt who's like a gym teacher was like,

you should be a lawyer because you argue a lot, which, like, isn't real advice from somebody who should be taking advice from. I had a fourth grade teacher who told me I was very argumentative and that I'd be a good lawyer. So I went to law school also, except I dropped out. But, well, you're ahead of the curve. Well, where maybe I just got worse grades my first year. That's also very possible. That does weed out a lot of us.

Well, I smoked a lot of weed. That really is what weeded me out of the first year of law school. But then I joined the Clinton administration. So, you know, that worked out well. So, yeah, and then all your weed was free. We all inhaled. It was great. Well, your book centers around many questions, but one that I noticed was what if success

and happiness were like two different things? What if success didn't equal happiness? Am I saying this right? Yeah. Yeah. So what do you mean by that? that, then for the listening audience, what does that mean? It means that you are going to spend your life trying to be successful, right? We all want to be successful. But where do we get the idea of what success is?

So, right, you had an aunt who said, you're argumentative, you should be a lawyer. I had a teacher who said, you're argumentative. You should be a lawyer. When I dropped out of law school and I joined the Clinton campaign, I ended up in the White House. And when I was there, I met and began to date the man of my mother's dreams, right? Success. Marry the nice Jewish medical student and, you know, nice guy, good family, good teeth, all the rest. Except there was no chemistry at all, right? Every time I kiss him, it would be like, I got to pick up the laundry, I got to get the dry cleaning. Like he was success on paper, but he wasn't successful. He wasn't making me happy. Does he ever do you think he read the book and is like, God, I'm getting wrecked? Because you bring

up that example. This isn't the first time I've seen that example. Yeah, no, but it's a good example. We've all been there, right? Where you've got, I'm going to fix you up with so-and-so. It's like, for the life of you, you're just not that exciting. Sure. You just can't get with it. And I think, I wish I knew his last name. I really do. I wish I could find him. I don't know what his last name was. I wonder whatever happened to him. He probably made somebody else very happy, but he wasn't going to make me happy. I think there are probably a lot of your listeners who were sitting in the corner office, who were driving the fancy car and who were like, okay, this is what I was supposed to be doing, right? This is success. And I realize that I'm not really cut out to be a lawyer. I wasn't cut out to work for somebody else. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I like being in control of my destiny, even if it's scary as can be. And I have no idea it's going to be. I have no idea it's going to be. I'm going to be. I'm not. I'm going to be. I was going to. I'm a little. I'm going to work out or not. I'd like to know that I'm placing a bet on myself. If I'm going to work my ass off, it's going to be for my own interests and my own dreams and my own goals. And I'm going to be the one who defines what quality is and the work that I do, not somebody else. And so I think this idea that there is success is based on this idea that somebody else is defining it for us.

And we just can't pursue that and expect that's going to be fulfilling to us individually because we're all individual. So if we are doing work and we feel stuck, even though, know on paper we look like we should be crushing it, you think that in all likelihood that's a problem of how we've defined success. Or maybe we haven't bothered to define it. We just let other people define it for it. It's precisely that. I think that we let other people define it. There's a moment when you're like 15, 16, 17 years old where somebody says pick a path, pick a major, pick a college, right? Pick a job. Pick a trade. Pick something. And you're like, yeah, okay. Awesome. And then you go and you do it. And then about six years later you develop a

frontal lobe. You know, like the actual part of your brain that helps you, make good decisions. So how are we supposed to make these decisions that are going to affect the rest of our lives before we literally have the capacity to make good ones? Seriously. Yeah, like I should have gone to college when I was 30, not when I was 19. Absolutely. Absolutely. So like you're picking a major based on what? Based on what your parents tell you should do, based on what your aunt tells you should do, based on what some random teacher tells you should do. How, like, we're not even fully developed yet. So you don't know what you're good at. You don't know what you love. So that's the first thing is that we don't define it for ourselves. And then the second thing is,

even if we do do it, we don't give ourselves the grace to look back and say, maybe I want to do something else. Maybe I'm a different person or maybe I'm in a different season of my life right now. Yeah, we get some cost, right? Like, I can't just do that. Now I went to law school. What are you talking about? I can't just like quit everything and start a business. I didn't need to go to law school for that.

I didn't even need college for that. And I went through that thought process. And then I was like, yeah, but what am I going to do about that? Just keep working in the legal field or just start now. Can't go back in time. But I think a lot of people go, I'm not wasting this education. Right. So you're going to say, like, okay, I'm not going to waste these three years of my life at the cost of the next 60? That's insane. I'm not going to have these go to waste. I'm going to double, triple down. On misery. Right, on misery. I hate this. I'm going to keep doing it.

Exactly. Show them who's his boss. Exactly. And I mean, that's so fucked up, right? Like, why would you do that? We all have this one big, juicy life on this planet. And there are so many interesting careers. I wish I knew when I went to college. How many different kinds of careers are. Growing up, it was like you can be a doctor, a nurse, a teacher, an accountant. Like, there were very specific jobs, and those were the jobs. And everything else, it was like, or you're a failure. You just totally flagged where you grew up. Oh, accountant, lawyer? I'm like, wait, I didn't know any accountants. I didn't know what that was.

It was Dr. Policeman, Fireman, Army, I think, was one of them. Yeah, but I talk about this. I give this exact same example, because when you're in kindergarten, those are the jobs that you know exists. And then, like, later on, you find out what your parents do, and you kind of understand, like, oh, my daddy does make sure that, the cars that Ford builds are good quality. And then when you're in college, you're like, huh, I still have the exact same spread of jobs in front of me, except for I think I know what my friends' parents do and my parents and like a few of my uncles, but you have no idea about actual jobs. Yeah, I mean, if somebody had told me when I was in fourth grade loving to draw that you

could be an animator, okay, who knows, that's a job. Like, I did not know that these were jobs that existed. And I think that our parents do the best they can. based on what they know and then we do the best based on what we know and, you know, on and, but my parents grew up in one-bedroom apartments in Brooklyn, and my father shared a pull-out sofa with his brother until the day he left and married my mom. They went to Brooklyn College and they thought they had made it, right? So when I was going to college, it was, you know, you either get into Harvard, which I was not going to get into, or it was like go to University of Go State, whatever, right? I went to University of Texas. I didn't know that small liberal

arts colleges existed. I didn't know that science and technology schools existed. I didn't know that there were other things because they did the best they could based on what they knew. And I think that's what happened. So when we let other people define success, it's going to be a smaller version of what we wanted to be. In the same way that, you know, when you were going to leave law school or when you were leaving law, you told people that they looked at you like, what you were crazy? And the look that they gave you wasn't, oh my God, Jordan, you can't do it. It was, oh my God, I don't know if I can do it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Right. So we have this like smaller version, the smaller definition of success that we start with.

And then it gets even shrunk even more by everyone else's anxieties and their fears. And nobody knows what we're capable of because we never really push ourselves to be in that uncomfortable place on the edge of our incompetence and just figure out, like, well, what if things go wrong? And how do I figure it out from there?

And that's when you find all the good juicy stuff, right? Is in that failure moment. Or they're like, oh, my God, I'm afraid and will it work out? And I got to, like, dig in deep and make it happen. That's when you figure out what you really love to do because in that moment, that do or die moment, you focus on what you really want.

Yeah. It's really hard for people, I think, to wrap their minds around this when you're in the middle of something that should be successful because it's like, oh, yeah, I totally understand what they're saying, except I can't do that because, I mean, I have three kids or whatever. I'm in this law job. I'm doing pretty well. It's not the worst. You know, I get two weeks off here. I mean, I can't really normally take two whole weeks, but, you know, it's fine. And you hear that kind of thing a lot. And Mark Manson and I were talking about how people chasing happiness are some of the most miserable people around. To your point that I think you've made before we started recording the show, because happiness is fleeting, because it's also subjective,

you can't really use it as a metric. It's completely worthless because it is fluctuating. It's like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. If you look at it, it's moved. Yeah, absolutely. And happiness is the same way. It's fleeting, it's subjective. You can't be sure if you have it right now because if you're busy thinking about that, then you're not happy at that time. think, well, in the past I've been happy, right? Well, was I? It must be. Wait, is that cognitive bias? I'm not really sure. And then you're not sure if you're ever going to find it again in the future. So you're like, well, I'm not going to gamble with that and leave my career. I'm just going to stay here because I believe that in the past I have had some happy moments, maybe.

Yeah. Well, and it's also an asymptotic curve, right? So the closer you get to it, you go and can get like closer and closer and closer, but you never quite reach it because we have this, you know, the whole self-help industry that we talked about before we started. They all be happy when, right? be happy when I get the job. I'll be happy when I get the promotion. I'll be when I get married. I'll be happy when I have a kid. I'll be happy when I get divorced. Like, I'll be happy when I'll be happy when. And it's all this giant happiest industrial complex that's there to teach us that we can't be now. Like it's always got to be something that's just get beyond our reach. The thing is we can be. We just have to define it for ourselves. I was talking to a client of mine and he was saying,

well, you know, I don't drive. I don't have a driver's license. I like to walk everywhere. You know, life is great. My neighbor just got this beautiful. brand new car and I thought to myself, should I get a car? Maybe I should get a car. That's a really nice car. And I was like, well, do you want a car? He said, no. And I'm like, well, then forget about the car. But we have this thing where, like, God forbid, we say, you know what, I am happy. This is good. I like what I'm doing. I'm enjoying it. I'm going to send a little time in the space and let things percolate and grow. But it is, it's this, I think the Heisenberg principle is a great way to think about it because we have this notion that it shouldn't, we shouldn't be

happy, you know, so like, God forbid, we are. And then if we are, well, maybe we're settling, right? It should be something that's just further. And thought about that. Yeah, I think we can be happy now. It's okay. So we are taking input from people, votes from people in our lives that shouldn't have votes. That's kind of the way you phrase is. Yeah, we shouldn't take votes. We should stop taking votes from people in our lives who shouldn't even have voices. Right. Yes, that. So that's really important to note. And I don't want to gloss over it because it's really easy to put that like on an Instagram and meme and then send it off into the internet. But it's true because we don't just do that when somebody says you should be a lawyer because you argue a lot. We do it in more subtle ways. Like,

it's more insidious than that. That's the obvious example. But there are other examples that are less right on the nose where we see like our brother or friends doing something. Well, they're working in finance. Look, he just bought a boat. And it's like, oh, okay, that's the rat race. I'm not going to do that. Maybe that's the adult version of you should be a lawyer because it's really, really clear. But there are other things where people would say you're being irresponsible if you work from home and start your own company right now because you're going to make partner in five years. Or why would you leave the hospital job and go into private practice in a clinic in a poor area? Like what is wrong with you? And then you start second guessing yourself. And no one's saying this to you.

You're saying it to yourself, but it's based on a program that's been installed in your software. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a long time. Yeah, you know, it's when my kids were in second grade, my oldest was in second grade, one of the parents got divorced and then another parent got divorced and another parent got divorced. And I remember saying to my husband, it's like divorce contagion, right? Because in the beginning was like the first person who got divorced was like, woohoo, I'm free. And all of a sudden the unhappy parents were like, oh, that looks pretty good. Their life didn't disintegrate. Their life didn't disintegrate. Because, you know, all we see, we see the highlight reel. Right. So we're busy seeing the highlight real. We're like, well, if this decision's making them happy, then maybe the decision is I've made have made me unhappy. Yeah, like their kid's not shoplifting. Right. We can do it and Tom won't shoplifting. Everything will be fine, right?

No problem. Like, nobody shows you the crystal ball from 10 years ago when Tom's on, you know, Crystal Meth. Right. But right now... Divorce causes Crystal Meth. That's what you should take from the time. That is the takeaway from this.

Like, I am a trained expert. Divorce causes Crystal Meth addiction. But we do, we do have this. And it's everywhere. I mean, it's an advertising. What size should you wear? What clothes should you wear? It's in the movies that we watch.

It's in the voices that are elevated on, you know, television and the radio and the ones that aren't. We see it everywhere and it's really difficult. So, you know, how do you figure out, right? How do you figure out what's actually going to make you happy? Should you leave the hospital jobs? Should you leave the corporate job? And I tell a lot of people that, you know, we get it wrong because we think that we have to have purpose, right? This like big, lofty, higher goal of purpose, like as if, you know, the only jobs that matter are jobs of service and service only counts if it's sacrifice. Like if you're literally not taking the shirt off your back for some kids in Haiti, like, your job is just useless and you're, like, mailing it in.

You know, so we see these friends on Instagram and on Facebook with, like, the pictures of them with, like, a bunch of, you know, black and brown faces around them as if they're holier than now. And the truth is, it's just like fashion tourism, right? It is. Oh, my God. Don't even get me started. I mean influencers doing that. There's a whole lot of people that have, like, their one or five photos from their trip to Africa. And you see them on their feed once a month because they're in the rotation. And I'm like, do you even, I don't even get me started. Yeah. Oh, I did a whole TEDx on this topic. Oh, yeah. Like, this question of, you know, we see this big, horrible thing that happens in the world. And the first

thing we say is, how can I help? Right. And you're like, oh, how can I help? How can I be the center? How can I be the solution? I'm an ale. So this problem must be a hammer. And then we send, you know, teddy bears to Newtown Connecticut or we send, you know, stuffed koalas to Australia right now. Or we send, you know, winter coats to Haiti or milk to Japan. Or, you know, we do this. Meanwhile, Australia is like, you have any idea how flammable these stuffed koalas? Exactly. And by the way, in Japan, we don't drink a lot of dairy. So, you know, it's not a lot of milk. And the money that it costs to ship and to store and to distribute and eventually to landfill, to all of these things to incinerate all these teddy bears, it could be better used for other things. And so my whole TEDx is about this idea that we have to stop asking this question. How can I help and ask a question, which is what needs to happen. What needs to happen so that these things don't happen so that these things don't happen so that these things don't happen so that these things don't happen so that we need to happen so that we don't have these massive, you know, shoot-ups in schools. So, you know, the whole thing is this rail against people who are like,

check, I did it. I built this cathedral to short-term comfort and everything's wonderful now. And I've got my picture on Instagram to prove it. And it's crazy making to me. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. And to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard from our amazing sponsors, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Don't forget, we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways. That link is in the show notes at Jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to

Jordan Harbinger.com slash subscribe. Subscribing to the show is absolutely free. It just means that you get all of the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player so you don't miss a single thing. And now back to the show. You call this the four horsemen of the success apocalypse, these insidious, unreachable ideas. Yes. I love this because not only are these insidious and unreachable, and often we do it to ourselves by accident, there's a whole industry of people that are out there doing it to you on purpose. They're called influencers slash self-help influencers or whatever. They're doing it on purpose because it creates a market for them and it sells this aspirational bullshit. Yeah. And by the way, the worst that they make you feel by uplifting you, the more they make from you.

Sure. Yeah, of course. That is problematic, I think. I agree. It's not practice, frankly. It is. If those people were smart enough to be licensed in anything, they should lose their license. before doing it. Absolutely. I was joking around with you before we started recording that, that I realized one day that I wrote a self-help book and not a business book. I thought I wrote a business book about how do you take your career and your work and use it to make your life better, to have a happy life. And then I got called to be on the Today Show in the 9 o'clock hour, which, you know, the Hoda and Jenna Bush hour and the producers like, most of the people in this hour are stay-at-home moms. And I was like, stay-at-home moms. I wrote a business book. Like,

what are they going to, what do they care? And we went back and forth with what the topic was going to be about and it's all about, you know, how to ignore other people and how to, you know, get unstuck. So I was like, all right, okay, I guess I'll do that. It's the Today Show. Like, how can I say no to that? I wrote a serious business book, but how can I say no to the Today Show? I guess I'll go do that. And then one after another, after another, the market kept coming back to me, quoting back to me some of the lines. And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. And I called my publisher and I was like, I think I wrote a self-help book. You accidentally wrote a self-help book. And he said, duh. Go with it. Yeah.

So here's what I've learned about the self-help world. There is a lot of really damaging stuff in the self-help world. And it is there to make you feel worse after you read it so that you'll buy the next product and the next course and the next whatever. But there's also some good stuff in there. And the good stuff is the one where they bring the help, but they demand that you bring the self. So there's some where it's like they give you the help in these Instagram means and these quotes and frankly half of them are plagiarized from other people. Sure. And they just, all you have to do is buy the mug that says this might not be coffee, right?

Like, this might be mine. And then you feel good because you're, like, part of the tribe. But the ones that demand that you actually ask yourself hard questions, the ones that demand that you bring the self-and-you-show up, those are the ones that I think are useful. But, you know, it was a crushing moment when I was like, oh, my God, am I a self-helper? Yeah.

Wow. Well, I don't want to. I was going to make a joke that involves someone else's name. Let's not do that. From what I understand, my liability insurance is good for, like, one year. It's good for one big loss. suit or one year of life? No, no. It's just... You're not going to do it. It's early in the year. It's only February. I don't really

want to pull the trigger on that just yet. It's got to be worth it. You got to aim big. That's right. Be limitless. Yes. Follow your passion is terrible advice. That's the worst advice. Okay. I just want to make sure we agree on that because a lot of people will be like, oh, okay, so follow my dreams. Got it. Bye. So I say often on stage and on speaking that follow your passion is the, it's the spoken word illegitimate sister of the live, love, laugh tattoo. Yes, which many people have. And then one of the organizers came up to me after the event. She was like, I have that tattoo. It was like, oh, ouch,

here's my problem with follow your passion. Follow your passion tells you that as soon as long as you all you have to do is find your passion and you're going to be jolly, keen, fine. Everything's going to be roses and rainbows and unicorn singing. And the minute it gets hard, right? The minute you mess up, the minute you don't sell the deal or you don't close the pitch, whatever, the minute things don't work out, you're like, oh, I guess it must not have been my passion because I found it and I was following it, so everything should be fine. Right. And I think that your passion is going to gut you. I think it's going to tear you apart. I think it's going to turn you inside out and have its weight with you. Your passion is going to destroy you as you try to perfect it.

And people say all the time, like, tell me what you would do if you knew you couldn't fail. Yeah. That's your passion. And I'm like, that's horses. Like, tell me what you would do if you knew for sure you would fail. And yet you would do it over and over and over until you got it right. Because doesn't your passion deserve that? Yeah, that's a good point. It's kind of a useless exercise. What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? There's a lot of things that I'm really not that, I mean, that are, yeah. I would sit in a room and do nothing. Like, I would know I wouldn't fail. That's not my passion, right? So I tell people that follow your passion is terrible. I want you to invest in your passion, right? Like figure out what it's going to take. Get better at things. Be willing to

fail. Be willing to fail all the time. because like I said, it's in that space that you're like, oh, I actually do like this or no, that's actually not worth it. I don't want to be uncomfortable. It's not worth it to me to do that. And I think that's one of those times when you realize, like for me in law school, like, it wasn't worth it for me to be uncomfortable. What I saw at the end of the tunnel was not interesting enough for me to struggle in that way. So I stopped. It clearly wasn't my passion. And I didn't want to invest in it. So it was pretty obvious that it wasn't going to work out. Happiness is all too often a stand in for fulfillment. Can you talk about that?

think we kind of touched on that in the beginning of the show, but I'd like to hit it one more time because it leads nicely into the next little bit here. Yeah. So look, I talk to a lot of companies who are like, oh, our employees are super happy. We've got ping pong Fridays and kombucha on tap and you can bring your dog to work on Wednesdays. And I'm like, great, they're happy, but they're not engaged. They don't really care, right? And happiness is this like, it's the short thing. Like, you can be happy in a moment, but you don't have a deep sense of fulfillment. It doesn't give you the thing that you really need to show up. I spent 20 years during executive search. What is that like recruiting? It's recruiting. So there's two different kinds of

recruiting. There's the kind of search where an organization brings you in and they ask you to find a new CEO and it takes three to four to five months to like go and comb the universe to find the best in class to do that. And then there's staffing recruiting firms where they're, you know, finding 50 people to, you know, work in a call center or something. And I did the retained executive recruiting. And I never really looked for subject matter expertise. I mean, I was the CEO of the company. So by the time people got to me, they were qualified. But I love. looked for hunger, weight, tenacity, speed, and grit, like for five personality traits. And I did that because I understood that somebody who was actually fulfilled in their work, who actually cared about

what they were doing, who wanted to invest in their passion, was willing to fight for it, were the people who had demonstrated those traits. And with hunger, weight, tenacity, speed, and great, you can figure out anything. You can read a book. You can watch a TED Talk. You could figure out how to do anything. Obviously, brain surgery and, you know, orbital mechanics take longer to learn. But the people who are simply sad, with looking for the fleeting ephemeral happiness, like the dopamine hit, don't do the hard yards to try to get really good at the passion. That makes sense. I feel like that's, it's true in every industry. It's definitely not just true at the executive level. It's probably just a human.

It's a human thing, yeah. I don't know if it takes 10,000 hours. Yeah, I'm pretty sure of it. That's like a made-up thing. Yeah. Work-life balance. Let's speak to that a little bit because I think that, well, first of all, people are always, they trip when I tell them I don't believe in it. You know, like, I, they give me this look of pity when I say that because they think that I'm just like slaving away, which maybe I am. I don't take much time off, but most of my days don't really feel much like work in the first place. Yeah. So I don't really, I feel like I don't need a lot of it. And then whenever I do get time off, I'm always like, ooh, let me read my backlog of book.

Oh, I should interview this person. Let me download that. I'm always doing that. I get bored when I'm just sitting around. And some of that's just like me being neurotic. But the other part of it is me really enjoying what I'm doing. Yeah, you're one of the lucky few. Yeah, I think so.

But I think a lot of people are worried that they don't have work-life balance, or they either feel guilty that they don't, or they're trying to find it in this weird way. Or if they're running a company, they're like, ooh, we need like mandatory time off, like one day a month. There's, like, you can't come in for this. Like, oh, you have to be away from your email after 5 p.m. You saw that study, right? Yes.

Some French companies or something are like, you can't email your employees after work or whatever. And it's like, how much do people hate working there? How much do people hate their coworkers where it's like, hey, I got your email at six. You. Yeah, exactly. Like, come on. I feel like their work life balance is this idea that is kind of outdated, right?

It's this idea that you are a different person at work than you are at home. And that was all well and good, like in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and even into the 80s, where you, you know, went to your job and you got in your car or the bus or whatever, subway. And you went home. and then you could be whoever, right? That doesn't exist now. Like, it would be very hard to find somebody who was listening to this podcast who is not on social media. And it would be very hard to find somebody who listening to this podcast on social media who is not friends on social media with some coworker or some colleague or something somehow, right? Like that wall between the two just doesn't exist anymore.

It is very difficult. And so you can't post about being in a cigar club if you're, you know, an oncologist. You can't post about making candy as a hobby if you're a dentist, right? Like, there are just, like, you have to live a life where you don't have work-life balance, but you have work-life alignment, where the what you do and the who you are are actually matched. So then it doesn't feel like you're in two different camps. We have this cult of busyness, right? We're all such martyrs.

We're so busy. We're so busy. I need more work-life balance. And I don't think the busy comes from doing too much. I think the busy comes from the costume changes in between the doing too much. Interesting. If you're trying to be a different person in one place and a different person in the other, that's exhausting. That's completely exhausting. So, you know, even in the work that I do, do I have work-life balance? I don't know. I don't really have a line between work and life. Like, it is my life. Some of the things I do I get paid for. Some of the things I do I don't get paid for. And the more of the stuff that I do that I like that I can get paid for, the better. But I don't have a like, I'm at work clock in. I'm out of work, clock out and I ever think about work. There certainly have been days where I fantasize about like, I like to just go flip burgers and not think about it again. But those are very few and far between. And I don't think anyone's ever going to have work that's like, this is glorious and I love every minute of it. But the more of the times that we

like, the more of the times that we can be our very best version of ourselves, then I don't know. That to me, I would rather have just more alignment than balance. What about this whole leaning in thing? You wrote about this in the book, too. Now I'm going to get used to. But there are a lot of books, influencers, people, wisdom, whatever speeches that are like hustle, grind, get to the top, scramble, mad dash, all this stuff. It's nonsense? It's nonsense. It's nonsense. It's nonsense. It's nonsense. Why? So all of these things, and look, I read Lean In and I really wanted to love it. Like, I knew I was supposed to love it. I'm part of the army of women. Like, I have a uterus. Like, we should all like, we should love lean in. You're being, you're disempowering other women. Yeah. I'm not loving that book. I don't love that book. And here's the thing about it. Like, I was not upset with Cheryl Sandberg about her achievement of success and how she achieved success. Frankly, I did the same thing. I used every ounce of privilege that I had to get to where I got to. And I was successful. Youngest Vice President, corner office, the whole nine yards. humble brag continue well but except i was ridiculously miserable right so like i got there and i was

all right well i got to the top but the top of what right like i killed myself to get there and i used everything i possibly could just like she did so like i don't i'm not upset with her about that i mean i had a lot fewer zeros behind my name doing it but but i did the same thing and then i got there and i was like all right fine i got to the top at the top of what and what i realized was that this the definition in lean in is this this this is this this is this one of the same thing i'm One myopic, unflinching definition of success that the fastest and most expedient path to the corner office is the only one that matters. And if you're not on that path and if you're not pushing everyone else over to get to where

you want to get to, then you're a failure. And all of this, you got to hustle harder and you got a rise and grind baby and all that stuff. It's such nonsense because it says that success is defined by like having the Maserati and the G6 and all that stuff. Frankly, all these influence are standing in front of the ones they're renting anyway. Or maybe they're not even renting them and they're just found one on this, you know, It's not a maz around in the street. My friend who owns this network is probably one of the wealthiest guys in L.A.

And he has all these model planes of all the planes he's owned. And I was joking. And I said, which one can we take to do it? And he goes, are you kidding? I sold it. It was the worst investment ever. Who buys a plane? He was a little more colorful on his language, but he was like, it's so stupid to have this thing.

Right. So all these brilliant entrepreneurs that are so wise about money are owning planes, it's a stupidest thing. So my issue with Lean-in isn't, it wasn't how she achieved success. It was how she defined success because I realized there was a point where I realized that that wasn't success for me. That wasn't how I defined it. And frankly, there are so many audience that I speak in front of where the women and some of the men, but especially the women come up to me in the book signing line afterwards and they're like, thank you. I hated it too, but nobody will admit it. No, no. No, because it seems, especially, look, is it different for women? Because I feel like women have more constraints on what they're allowed to say about this kind of thing. Because I think if you say something like, hey, you know, this is kind of a bunch of bullshit that we've been fed. People are like, oh, you're taking. us back to what should we just all be domestic now and like they're really they put words in your mouth but it still seems like you can't really do that whereas if i tell guys to go ahead and like find out their own path people are like thank you for giving me the permission to do it oh yeah it's ridiculous

and i will tell you that limitless it actually started the first line of it started i hated lean-in it was like the very beginning of it and my publisher called me and said oh you can't do that well first of all it's not an anti-leaning book there's so much else in the book and that's one segment he goes so it's not an anti-leaning book. So we don't want to position it that way. And also, it's kind of cruel since she lost her husband and on and on and on. And this is like before the anti-Facebook backlash of the last year. So at that point, I was like, okay, I guess you're right. You were right to be a trend setter. Yeah, I was going to be like this horrible thing. So we took it out of the very beginning and we moved it. And then when all that came out, I was like, see? Yeah. See, I would have been a pioneer.

But you know, but for sure, I mean, women like, God forbid we say anything negative about another woman. And And I'm not saying anything negative about her. I respect her. She's worked so hard. Get where she is. What I'm saying is that her definition is not the definition for everybody. And the happiness industrial complex that I talked about, the hustler industrial complex, all it tells you is that there is one definition. And that definition is it. I mean, like, think about Gary V. Like you think about all the people out there who are trying to be just like Gary V. Nobody's going to be like him. He's Gary V. Right. But as a woman, you want to talk about whether or not there are things that I can say and I can't say, I can't get on stage and curse of blue streaks. People are like, oh, that's fair. That's uncouth. Yes. Like, you seem, when I was in the Today Show, I didn't curse, obviously. And I was, like,

very gentle. And I was, it was like the 9 o'clock hour. So I was wearing muted colors and sleeves, and my makeup was quiet. And I was very, like, I was talking to my in-laws. Talking to my in-laws, it was like that kind of conversation like this. Men would never think about it. So I did that. And then lots of people signed up for my newsletter from there. And then I got emails from people. They were like, you were such a nice, gentle young woman on the Today Show. What happened to her? I got your email and the language. It was like, I was affronted by your language. I, H.E. double, what is hockey sticks? H.E. Double hockey sticks was the word I used. Apparently that was offensive. And I was like, oh, lady, just wait so you get the second introduction. Yeah, yeah. You might want to unsubscribe.

You might want to unsubscribe right now. But I do think men and women are able to say different things in public, period. And then about other women, about other men. Absolutely. So look, I'm not here to tear it on anybody. I think everybody can go out there and do whatever does they want to do and be the best version of themselves. I'm just unsubscribing to that as my only way of measuring success. Tell me about this consonance concept. First of all, it's a great word. Nobody uses that word, probably because we don't know what it means. Well, but see, here's the thing. You do. And everybody does. Once I explain it, they're like, oh, yeah, that's right. We all know dissonance. We've all heard that word. It's simply the opposite, right? So, concept.

is alignment, it's flow, it's harmony. So, Jordan, think about... That sounds very... What did you use? Floral crown? Yeah, it's flower crowns. Girls are flower crowns. There are crystal healers everywhere that know exactly what you mean. Absolutely. So here, you're going to know exactly what I mean by this. Think about a moment when you were at your absolute very best, when the things that you do really well were called upon to solve a problem at hand. And it was a problem that you, which you cared deeply. And you were rewarded for that, for solving that problem in some way that was either financially, carmically, emotionally,

interesting to you, meaningful to you. Think about those moments that you've had. Yeah, I'm coming up blank here, but that's, I'm trying to run a show, Dan. So those moments, the moments when you're like, yeah, I got this, right? I can walk through fire. I know how to do it in my sleep,

and it's so fun, and I can spend every day doing this thing right here. Those are the moments when you're in consonants, right? The what you do matches who you are. I mean, we're doing that right now, isn't that what I'm doing right now? This is what you're doing right now. I was sort of thinking that you were going to say, like, well, doing the show, interviewing people.

I just thought that was kind of a crap example. But, I mean, this is my hope. This is what you've dedicated your career today. So I hope it's not a crappy job. So here's the thing. I want people to stop leaning into this one singular fastest and most expedient path, corner office hustle, get the G6, that definition. And I want them to figure out what puts them in consonants.

And I want them to lean into that instead. So how do we do that? The first step to finding this, can we practicalize it? That's a word I just made up. Yeah. we can practicalize it. I like that word. We're going to use that. That's better. See, consonants practicalize. You've learned two new words today. That's right. There you go. One of which is not a real word. Well, who knows. Probably. I mean, you know, there's lots of new words we're

discovering every day, apparently. True. Putting in the OED. So there are four parts of consonants. There's calling, connection, contribution, and control. And so how do you get consonants? You figure out what your own personal rubric of these four things will be. So at every age and at every life stage, you're going to want and need different amounts of these at different points. So should we go through? Yes, let's go through those four elements. So calling. I don't even need to be here.

We're doing great. Calling. Calling is that thing that you love, that you want to do, that gravitational force. Like the thing that wakes you up in the morning that you can't, the thing that on vacation, you're like, I'm going to listen to the backlog. I want to read these books. I want to think about who I want to have on. It's clearly for you, this discovery of interesting people doing interesting things.

is that's your gravitational force. It takes the form of doing it in a podcast right now. You're working on this book. There are other things that you do. It takes lots of different forms, but your calling is this sort of discovery of ideas and people, right? That's your calling. And for some people, their calling is curing cancer. And for some people, their calling is starting their own business. For some people, their calling is being a stay-at-home mom and nurturing their kids. It can be anything. It's just your calling. And this is where I say, like, don't give votes to people who shouldn't have voices in your life. Like, figure it out for yourself. Yeah, because that's, like, noise, right? Yeah, like, I don't want to purpose shame anybody.

Like, if your calling is to buy Beach House and a Maserati, like, all the more power to you. Awesome. It doesn't have to be my calling. It just has to be yours. And again, at every age and at every life stage, that's going to change. And we think that, like, you have one calling in life. Like, you only have, like, this one true, you know, soulmate. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show.

We'll be right back after this. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air. To learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, so you can check out those amazing sponsors, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And don't forget the worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. If you're listening to us on the Overcast Player, please click that little star next to the episode. We really appreciate it. And now back to the show. You're right. It is like the soul

made of jobs. Absolutely. Oh, it's such bullshit. It's such bullshit. I was listening to your show with Mike Rowe and the whole idea, like his career is fascinating, right? And he's had seven different callings and he keeps changing what he does and it's incredible. But he's being led by this one interest and discovery of just finding neat people and seeing what they're up to. Like, that's pretty cool. So calling is the first piece. Great. The second piece is connection. And connection really answers the question, does your work actually matter to that calling? Not does it matter in the world? Not are you like finding world peace. But what if you called into work sick tomorrow? Like when anybody notice, anybody care? Like clearly your work is very connected. This would be a problem. This would be a

problem. You have a lot of connection in your work. But there are people who say, yeah, I don't know that anybody would notice, right? I don't understand how the work that I'm doing right now actually impacts the company's bottom line. Sure. I don't know how it's helping my business grow. I talked to so many entrepreneurs who say, I started this work because my calling was that I wanted to solve whatever problem. I wanted to build whatever business. I wanted to work with these clients. And now the company's grown and all I'm doing is dealing with HR nightmares. Oh, yeah. Right? Like, that's not connection. So you need to have a lot of connection to understand. understanding, like the work you're doing actually matters to you reaching that calling. The third piece is

contribution. So contribution is a piece that we often get wrong in our like humble brag, faux humility society. I want to know from people, what do you want your work to contribute to your life? How much do you want to get paid? How much flexibility do you want? Will you be able to afford the lifestyle that you want, have the life you want? Are you manifesting your values on a daily basis through your Manifesting is an icky word right now. They're out there saying things like, you know, imagine it and it will happen. Yeah. So I'm not saying that. I'm saying, are you somebody who believes deeply in the environment? If you are, are you working for a company that's polluting the environment? Well, you're not, the act of manifesting is not, I'm dreaming it's going to happen,

but am I actually causing it to happen in the world? Like, how does it actually show up? Are you able to bring your values to the work that you're doing so that you're not having work-life balance, but it's actually aligned with who you are? And then the last piece of contribution is really, is this contributing to the career trajectory that you want? So if you're somebody who says, you know, I'm at the age where I'm having kids right now, I want to just stay stasis in my job because I want to spend most of my energy on the home front, fine. Then you're in a job where you can stay, you know, at that level for as long as you need and nobody's giving you pressure to move up. But how is it contributing to the kind of life that you want? I had a business coach

once who I went to and I brought him all of my fancy stuff. I thought I was going to get all the gold stars. I brought him like the P&L forms and I brought him the marketing materials and my next year strategic plan. It's beautiful. And I placed it all in front of us on the table and he took it and he pushed off the table and he was like, all right, tell me, how do you pay yourself? Wow. And I was like, ah, and I gave the worst answer ever. I was like, well, I pay my people and I pay her overhead and then I reinvest some in the company and then I pay myself what's left over. Yeah, terrible. Terrible. It's like my dad told me when I was 12, pay yourself first. Yeah, it was the worst. But I, you know, I came out of 20 years of nonprofit and government work. And I was just like, oh, you know, I was wearing

the, like, the badge of honor of purpose, right? Yeah. And the martyrdom hat. Yeah, the martyrdom hat. Exactly. And he said, stop thinking like a girl. I was like, dang. Yeah. You know, I was like 36 years old at the time. So I was a small. A little too old to be. Yeah. Yeah. So he said, tell me what kind of life you want to live. It's like, well, what do you mean? He goes, well, how often do you want to go on vacation? And when you go on vacation, Do you want to stay at the Motel 6 of the four seasons? Do you want to fly coach? You want to fly first class. When you rent the car, are you getting the Maserati or the Hyundai?

So you think about the kind of life that you want. And then how much does that life cost? Okay, now you know what that life costs. Now you know what you need to pay yourself. Now go build a business that's going to throw off that amount of income. It's like, oh. That's important because what people do is they just go, I need to make as much money as possible because that's what you do in business.

Big or better, faster, more. So then you get people who have like $10 million businesses, but they live $300,000 lifestyles, and they're like more than happy. So they invest and save a shitload of money. And I know these people for real. This is not like a hypothetical. And they're building a house that's like 1,700 square feet for them, their wife, and they're one or two kids.

And they're fine. And I'm like, why are you always stressed out? Oh, my business is that and the other thing. What are you going to do? Sell it for $100 million and then what are you going to do? Yeah. We're going to be having the same conversation except you're going to have a new iPhone case. Maybe.

When I ran my last business, we brought in a very high-level Harvard-educated business, you know, MBA to facilitate it. And she had us go around the room as our executive team, go around the room in the beginning. And she said, to start the day off, the retreat off, I want to have everybody go around the room and say, how many do you think will be the ideal number of employees for this company? Everybody around the room. And it was like 25, 75, 102, 6.

I mean, people were pulling the numbers out of their ass. And she got to me at the end, and I looked up and I was like, that's the dumbest question. I've ever heard. Yeah, that's weird. It's a terrible question because I could run a way more profitable business at 35 than I can at 75 and then I can run a profitable business getting at 125, but there's there's quantities of scale. Sure. So just this pressure, like this hustle, grind pressure, bigger, better, faster, more. You have to keep growing and growing and growing. Actually, what kind of life do you want? Do you want the kind of life where you can leave every day at 4.30 and be home and have dinner with your family? Then that's a different kind of business than you're building. So, you know,

I ask people to say, like, I want to know what? you want this work to contribute to your life, right? So you have, what is my calling, it does my work connect to it, and how is the work contributing to my life? And then the last piece is control. And control really is how much personal agency do you actually have to impact how much that work connects to your calling and how much it's contributing to your life. So do you get a say on which teams you get placed on? Do you, are you able to go into the meetings and be part of decision-making processes? Are you, if you care about your company's philanthropic endeavors, are you on that committee? Like, how much say do you get to decide where you are or are you just

basically in the passenger seat of someone else's van the entire time? Now, I'm a serial entrepreneur. I'm a control freak of like the highest order. Like, I literally have to sit on the aisle of every airplane I'm on because I just even want the illusion of control. Like, if that plane's going down in a fiery ball of planes... Oh, I thought it was like you're not letting people go to the bathroom without permission. That's, I don't, there's just, listen, I'm a grown-ass woman and no one is going to stop me from peeing the second that lights us off. Ding, I'm up. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to get by Laura Gassner-odding on the plane, but you better mind your peas and teeth. I will take you down. This is an important point because, you know, the more I think

about this, the more I'm in this area right now where I have to start thinking about these kinds of things, probably could have used some thought earlier in the game, like before I went to us. Nine months ago. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or that. But also, like, looking at this, I'm thinking of a friend of mine, I just talked to recently, he essentially lives a little bit more of a consumer lifestyle than me because he has a lot more money, but he has 900 employees. And I realize that when I look at take home pay, his is more than mine, but it's not like an order of magnitude more than mine, but he has 900 employees. Yeah, it's 900 headaches. Oh my, all the time. Yeah. Well, and that's what I said to my team. I said, we could grow the business and we could have 300 employees

or 3,000 employees, but at the end of the day, when things go sideways, that lands on my plate. So are you going to tell me that I'm going to make that much more money? Or am I going to make that much more impact in the world? Like, what are we trying to do in this business? Are we trying to maximize profitability for ourselves? Are we trying to maximize the impact we're having for our clients? Are we trying to change the way that this work is being done in the, in our sector? What are we aiming for? How are we defining success? And then I can build that business. Like, if everybody around the table says, I want to make as much money. as humanly possible and work as little as I need to, then we can build that business.

And what you're saying is we want to make tons and tons of impact on all of our nonprofit clients who are changing the world, then we can do that too. We can do whatever we want, but just the number, that's the worst metric of all. So how do we put this into action? You've got this, I don't know if it's a system. My next book's going to call Wonder Hell. Wonder Hell? What's that all about? So when the book came out, I honestly expected, like, I'd sell six copies and five of them would be to my mom. And suddenly it was successful, right? Like, it was, I didn't quite know what to do. And I was on an airplane on a red eye on the way back from speaking on a stage that I shared with Malala,

right? Wow. Wow. Dang. That was ridiculous. And so I literally took a selfie with Malala. And about 15 minutes later found out that my book had debuted on the Washington Post bestseller list right behind Michelle Obama. And I was like, okay, this will literally be the weirdest week of my life. No matter how long I live. Like, it's all downhill from now. I just might as well give up. And I had that moment at like 4.30 in the morning when I couldn't sleep on the plane and I was like shoved in the like the center seat in between, you know, the seat wouldn't go back and

I couldn't fall asleep. And I opened up my laptop. And I just started writing. And I was like, it's 4.28 a.m. or maybe it's 1.28m. or maybe it's 7.28m. I have no idea. All I know is that I am like in the space between the chaos that was yesterday and the chaos that will be tomorrow is where I am right now.

and it's WonderHell. It's like, it is so amazing and humbling and special that anybody wants to spend even five minutes thinking about a thing that I created. That is such a wonderful feeling. And also, I have never been tired in my entire life. It's hell. It's Wonder Hell. And I wrote this thing where I was like, and you know what happens in WonderHound? WonderHell is that space in your psyche where the burden of potential walks in and unpacks your backpack and is like, hey, motherfucker.

What you got for me? Are you going to live into this? Right? Like you've just seen that you're capable of more than you thought you could do. What are you going to do with it now? And I think there's this Rubicon moment where the world opens up and you're like, I could lean into this and I could do more with it or I could choose not to and let it pass by. And what do you do in that moment? And I think this moment of wonder how I think that there are people who thrive in it and who have succeeded.

And I think there are people who are drowned by it. And I'm so fascinated by that moment. And I want to interview, you know, a dozen well-known. individuals and hear from them what the themes are. Like, why do they do it? And I think there are probably things like you learn to get over imposter syndrome by understanding that you could teach other people what you know, like you could give kindness out. And the more that you use your knowledge as currency, the more that you actually love this moment. Or things like there will be people who you will have to drop who don't like you because you've outgrown the small ideas that they

had for you. Right. I think there are these hard moments you have to go through. So the next book I want to write is going to be called more than hell. It's actually a really useful concept. People always say, how do I know when to cut someone out of my life? There's some obvious people that, you know, like this person stole my identity. Those are bad parents or bad siblings or whatever. But there are other people in your life that are super negative or not negative at all, but insidiously keeping you small. Absolutely. I think there are people in your life who will actively diss you, who will knock you down and to say things. And then there are people in your life who are like, oh, that's a really great shirt. It's a lot better than the one you were last time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then there are people in your life who don't say anything at all. Right. who never cheerlead you. And I think those people are just as toxic as the other ones because those are the ones who sit in the corner and they wait and they bite their time and they keep score.

And they're just like they don't show up when you're succeeding. And they also don't show up when you're failing when you need them the most. And I think those toxic vampires are the ones that, look, we all have enough voices in our head that say like, oh, what are you doing? You're crazy. You're going to fail. Got at least four right now. Yeah, we got all those voices.

Like, why do we need to add on to them with people who don't have our best. best there. People always talk about that Jim Rohn quote that you're, you know, the average of the five people you keep close to you. And then I just a couple weeks ago saw John Wooden, you know, the basketball coach, who said you will never outperform your inner circle. And I thought that is such a good concept, right? So like, who do you keep around you? And the ones who are keeping score and who don't have this abundance mentality, the ones that are like kind of just sitting there, like waiting and biding their time. And I think when you know when to cut people out, when they're not actively cheering for you all the time, good or bad. And if you don't want to actively cheer for them.

Oh, that's interesting. That's really good. It goes both ways. Most people don't think about that. So what would be the first step someone after hearing this should even take in order to, like, one, start applying this, but two, figure out, like, am I doing the right thing that's the right thing for me or am I just delusional in thinking that my current career is good for me? Yeah. So there's a couple things. The first is anyone who's like, okay, calling, connection, contribution control. That sounds sort of interesting. I don't really know where I sit. I have an assessment online. I think you have it in your show notes. Yeah, it'll be in the show notes. Right. Limitless assessment.com. And it's a fairly intense quiz. It takes about 20 minutes, but anyone is listening can tell

them a fairly intense human being. Yeah. Way to un-sell that. Yeah. You know, it's funny because I, I know that I'm supposed to make these quizzes like super easy and really light and you're supposed to feel all awesome about yourself after and yay. But I feel like anybody who's going to take the time to actually invest in an idea and who wants to think about something and wants to improve their life? Like, take it serious. Like, it's your life. Take it seriously. Like, you can afford 20 minutes. Like, get a glass of wine or a goblet of OJ or like whatever your drink of choice. For those of you that have goblets around the house. After your Dungeons and Dragons tournament, go get some orange juice.

Listen, man, I played a mean game of Dungeons and Dragon back in my day. But I think, so go and take that quiz, right? The end of it, you get a beautiful radar chart and there's two different charts. And one shows you how much of each of the four you have in your life. And the other shows you how much of each of the four you actually will. want to have in your life, right? So it shows where you're not in consonants, where they don't overlap, and then there's some actual very specific practical tips. But I would say if you're sitting here and you're like, well, I'm not really sure. Maybe I have it. Maybe I don't. I would ask yourself,

who set that definition of success for you? Like, is it yours? Is it what you've always wanted to do? I mean, you know, when I was 10 years old, I wanted to be an astronaut, right? Like, I'm clearly not an astronaut today. But why was that set for me? It was set for me because those are the careers that I saw, those are the ones that were put in front of me. Those are the ones who like, when they brought people into like career day at school, nobody brought in the like software programmer, right? They brought in firemen. That was exciting. It was sexy. It was interesting. So I would ask yourself, who set up my definition of success? What am I pursuing? And then why am I doing it? Right? Is this something I really want to go after? And to really have that conversation with yourself about whether or not

the things that you like to do when you're not being paid to do them, when you're on vacation, do you gravitate towards the stuff that's actually part of your work? Or are you going so completely far away because you're just dreading Sunday night? You get like that case of depression. You don't want to go in. And then it's like, well, is it the work? Is it the environment? Is it the career that I hate that I have? Is it the workplace that's just not really part of what's interesting to me? I don't like the people that are there. I don't feel like they're, you know, looking out for my best interests. Or is it me? and have my goals changed since I've changed. You know, I get asked a lot on interviews, like, what would you tell your 22-year-old self?

Yeah, people ask me that too. Terrible advice, right? So at one point when the book came out, I did like 100 podcasts, and I got a little cranky on one of them because this guy was asking me, like really just wrote terrible questions. And so I said, well, that's a terrible question.

I said, my 22-year-old self, who's listening to a podcast on my mobile device that was recorded over the internet, none of those things existed when I was 22. Sure. So even if I knew who I was when I was 22, which none of us did, the world around us has changed so much that we will have to change. Like, we have to do different

things. We have to continue to evolve and to grow and to reevaluate. And I think just not being afraid of reevaluating, not being afraid to say, this was a path I was on. It's not the path I want to be on anymore. I mean, in 20 years of doing executive search, the most interesting, actually, the only interesting people that I spoke to were the ones who took left turns and U-turns and right turns. Like the ones that just have the straight and narrow path were incredibly boring. I never presenting them as candidates. It's interesting.

I've got a friend in Toronto. She's a listener of the show. I was going to name her, but maybe she doesn't want me to do that. She used to work at like some corporate job making a ton of money and she quit and she's like an actress now in Toronto and we email back and forth as I do with many show fans. I think she's happier now, but she literally can't afford good food sometimes or food in general because she's like a local actress. But she's happier now.

Yeah. Having left corporate. And she, I think she went to like Stanford or Harvard or something like that. I can't remember now. But she wasn't exactly, she was like at Goldman Sachs. Like she wasn't just like working, you know,

on the back end of a whatever. That's going to come out rude no matter how I say. She had a really high-powered corporate job that would have resulted in a lot of money. And probably everybody in her, told her she was insane to do it. And it may be, I think we take other people's opinions of us as definitional. when they're really not. They're literally just opinions. And the person who tells you that you're crazy because you want to do something, by the time they've gotten their coffee at Starbucks and, you know, gotten back in their car, they've forgotten all about your conversation. And it sticks with us as if it's like, oh, that person thinks I'm crazy, right? But like you wouldn't, if that person gave you incredibly great, wonderful compliments about the show, would you take them seriously? Maybe, maybe not. So why are you taking their concerns about you seriously also? Because they're really just about them. So, you know, your friend who's the actress.

this is where she is right now at this stage in her life. And it may be that there's another stage where she's like, you know what, this doesn't work for me anymore. It worked for me then. It caused me happiness then. Now I want to do something else. And I just, if I could wave a magic wand for all your listeners, I would just like release them of the burden and the stress of living into everybody else's idea of what they should be and who they should be and God forbid what they can't be. And let them just define for themselves of what's going to make them happy. Laura, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Big thank you to Laura.

Her book is called Limitless. Of course, we will link to that in the show notes. There's also a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. Also in the show notes, there are worksheets for each episode so you can review what you've learned here from Laura Gassner-Odding. We also now have transcripts for each episode, and those can be found in the show notes as well.

I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six-minute networking course, which is free. over at Jordanharbinger.com slash course. The problem with kicking the can down the road and saying you're going to do this later, well, I've heard that before. But if you don't dig the well before you get thirsty, you're going to find that when you need relationships,

you're probably too late to create them. These drills take just a few minutes per day. This is the stuff I wish I knew decades ago. It's not fluff. It's crucial both in your career and in your personal life or if you're self-employed. And you can find it all for free at jordanharbinger.com slash course.

By the way, most of the guests on the show actually subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So come join us and you'll be in smart company. In fact, why not reach out to Laura Gassner-Oding? Tell her you enjoyed this episode of the show. Show guests love hearing from you and you never know what might shake out of that. Speaking of building relationships, you can always reach out and or follow me on social. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

This episode was produced by Jen Harbinger and Jason DePhilippo, engineered by Jason Sanderson. Show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty, music by Evan Viola, and I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. And yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. And I think here, anybody who's wondering if their career is the right place for them, thinking about a pivot, thinking about making of change. Of course, I hope you find something useful in every episode. So please share the show

with those you love and even those you don't. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here. Just an fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like

why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.