The Jordan Harbinger Show - 357: Robin Dreeke | Sizing People Up

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Robin Dreeke (@rdreeke) is the retired head of The FBI Behavioral Analysis Program and co-author of Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agent's User Manual for Behavior Prediction and The Code of Trust: An American Counterintelligence Expert's Five Rules to Lead and Succeed. What We Discuss with Robin Dreeke: People can be relied on to act in their own best interest (from their perspective, not yours). Just because you like somebody for any number of commonalities doesn't necessarily mean you can (or should) trust them. Why it creeps us out when people try too hard to get us to like them (and how we can avoid creeping out others when establishing rapport). Four principles that allow you to make any conversation about the other person -- and therefore more aligned with their best interest. How and why professionals who should understand the basics of rapport-building consistently fail (and how they can correct course). And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://jordanharbinger.com/357 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's gofundme.com. Gofundme.com. The first one was a very tall, good-looking blonde woman with a leather biker jacket, tight leather pants, and spike boots. And she introduced herself as the company's lawyer. The next was the lead dominatrix who she had a few extra pounds on her, one of those biker caps and tight leather this with things falling out all over. And on her chain walking on falls behind her was a very young, skinny-looking girl. I'm just sitting there watching a show come in and I'm about to do this interview. I was like, huh, this is interesting.

And here I'm thinking to myself, what do I do to develop rapport? Where's my commonality here? Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with producer Jason DeFilipo. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills

of the world's most brilliant people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, we want you to become a better thinker. If you're new to the show,

we've got episodes with spies and see, CEOs, athletes and authors, thinkers and performers, as well as toolboxes for skills like negotiation, body language, persuasion, and more. So, if you're smart and you like to learn and improve, you'll be right at home here with us. I'm especially excited about today's guest, Robin Drake. He's been a friend of mine for a long time, and for decades was one of America's top spy hunters for the FBI. Today on the show, Robin and I discuss how people in his line of work, size people up,

predict their behavior, and decide whether or not others can be trusted. Whether you're in HR, recruiting, sales, corporate espionage, or actual espionage, you'll get a lot of practicals and how-to out of this episode, as well as out of Robin's new book, appropriately titled Sizing People Up. Something tells me the worksheets for this episode are going to be chunkier than usual, given all the info we go through here today. If you want to know how I managed to have all these amazing folks in my circle, it's about systems and tiny habits when it comes to relationships and networking. I've got a course, six-minute networking. It's totally free, not enter your credit card free, just free, free.

That's at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. And by the way, most of the guests on the show, they do subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Now, here's Robin Dreek. Robin, thanks for coming back on the show. It's been a while, and this is the book I kind of hoped you would write

after retiring from the FBI. Thanks. It's great being back with you again. It's been a lot of years. An early concept in the book was that people often lie to themselves and spread that lie around. And I thought this is a really fascinating insight, because a lot of folks in that case

mislead other people almost by accident. The question you ask yourself is, how often have you met someone who is supposed to be great at something and wasn't? My kind of gut reaction to this, and I think a lot of people says, oh, this person conned me or they lied to me, but really they're lying to themselves as well.

They actually believe their own BS. Is that something you find as common just among humanity in general? Yeah, pretty much, because the way you more eloquently said it, and I said it in the book, But in real life, the way I really look at is how many people are actually truly self-aware. Because if you're self-aware, you stop blind to yourself because you let go over your own insecurities. And when you let go of your own insecurities, you can see yourself of who you are, the good, the bad, the imperfect, and ugly.

And you can do the same with others without judging them either because you just see clarity in life and clarity in people. No good, no bad just is. And so that's what that's about. Now, you've got this list of, what would you say these are? Are these qualities, vesting, longevity, reliability, action language, stability? Are these sort of vectors for deciding whether you can trust someone? What are these concepts here? There are vectors and signs.

You know, each one of these things is built out to be a sign for understanding someone at a deeper level, because once you understand someone at that deeper level, you can get a better idea of what you can reasonably expect they're going to do. And that's what I call, you know, some people call that trust. I call it predictability because that's what this book's really truly about. It's about predicting the behaviors of others, and we'll call them vectors for you. for the sole purpose of understanding how to build even a deeper, stronger relationship, because as you've known me all these years, it's all about strong healthy relationships. And everything I've ever done and worked towards is how do you do that?

How do you proactively make good, healthy, strong relationships? Because without those things, you're not going to achieve anything in life. And there's no better time right now than to understand that. Relationships are going to be the key in everything. This system seems helpful for avoiding drama and protecting ourselves from Flake. protecting ourselves from manipulators, you've mentioned that people can relied on to act in their own best interest. And this at first sounds a little cynical, but I guess it makes sense. Is it cynical? Why not? If not, definitely not cynical to me. When I do all my talks and speak and everything,

and I always say that. I said, I can predict what every human being is always going to do. We're all going to always act in our own best interest in terms of safety, security, and prosperity for ourselves and our family, for a little more altruistic, our community, a little more, even bigger than that. But the key to that is not what you're not. you think their safety, security, and prosperity is, it's from their point of view. So if I can take time to understand what they think is in their best interests, I now know what they're going to do. This whole system forces you to ultimately focus on others and understand them without judging them at a very deep level. Speaking of predicting what people are going to do, predictability comes

first and trust follows. So does this mean that if we can predict what someone's going to do, that's an indication that we can trust what they're going to do because we kind of know already what that action will be? Most likely, you know, because once you observe someone doing something at least once, twice, or three times, the likelihood of them continuing that way and predicting it slash trusting them is pretty high unless you have new outside stimulus. And so, again, that's why I love this system because you no longer rely on hope. Oh, I hope they'll do something different next time. Well, why would they? You know, unless there's a reason in their lives that would change your behavior, the behavior is most likely not going to change. So now I can predict what they're going to do.

I can set my bar at a certain level, and they're either going to meet it or exceed it because I took the time to reasonably assess what they're going to do. And now, the great thing here is if they fall short of that, that means something happened in their lives, and I need to understand what it is. So it manages my own expectations of them so that, again, I don't get derailed, I don't get emotionally hijacked, and I can maintain that great relationship. You coined a term called stempathy. What is that? Stemphathy is something that I've been doing for a number of years. and I didn't realize it. It's the combination of stoicism, and not the stoics as a cynics necessarily, but stoicism from the point of view of just observing behavior and cause and effect. So with human beings, there's two truths I basically base everything on, and that is we're very tribal

by our genetics and biology that we want to belong to meaningful groups and organizations and be valued by the same. Our brain rewards us for these behaviors. And the second one is what I said earlier, and that is we're all acting our own best interest. And so when you combine those things together, you can observe behavior and understand the cause and effect, which is very stoic. So that's where the stimp comes from. Well, the stuh. And the empathy part is, when you do these things, you're actually understanding people at a very, very, very deep level, which is empathy. And human beings crave and we seek that empathy. So when you combine the two together of observation objectively and the fact that you're actually gaining empathy,

you get sympathy. Can you tell us about this Russian double agent contacts? This is how you that other people's perspectives are the only ones that matter. I thought this was kind of a fascinating story because I think every sales guy has learned this, but you were in the business of what, would you say selling people on the idea of sometimes even betraying their country? Is that fair?

No, so it's a great question, though. I generally, you know, start out by asking people, all right, so how do you recruit a Russian spy? And people are thinking it's money or you're going to use coercion or you're going to get them to betray something and it's nothing further from the truth. It's just like sales.

So for me, I call it the hardest sales job in the entire world because my job in the FBI working counterintelligence was I was selling a concept. I was selling American patriotism. So I'm actually selling not even a tangible thing. I'm selling an idea. So that's my product. And my potential clients are Russian intelligence officers. And so I always say the first challenge is how many of those Russian intelligence officers, which are foreign diplomats under here under diplomatic cover, want to buy that product? So therein lies your first challenge.

And then the second challenge is, by treaty, it's illegal for me to actively approach them and engage them in a conversation. So the greatest challenge is they don't want to buy the product. And the second challenge is I'm not even going to try to sell it to them. So that brings you to so actually, how do you actually do that then? Well, it's very simple. The same thing anyone in sales does. Salespeople, all they're trying to do is understand what the priorities of that person is,

in other words, their needs, wants, dreams, and aspirations. and they offer them resources that they have as a service or a product in terms of that person's priorities. And so that's all my job was. My job was to discover the priorities of these intelligence officers I was tasked to try to sell my product to and see if anyone wanted to buy it. And the ones that generally come on board and willing to buy that product, you know, was it like a dying wish of a grandmother or a grandfather, father, father, relative, that their children wouldn't grow up under some horrible regime somewhere and they wanted a better life with better education, their health care for themselves. I have resources that can help that if they have a product

that they want to share with me, which would be intelligence, operations, that kind of thing. So it's really exactly the same process. You give a formula for sizing someone up, but I wrote it in my notes as follows. Sizing someone up equals measuring self-interest and the predictability of them following that self-interest. So you would evaluate their self-interest and evaluate the predictability of that person in following that self-interest. Because, of course, you can find somebody who is not predictable because they're incompetent or some other factor.

And you can also mismeasure their self-interest because maybe you like that person. So you're mistaking your ability to predict their behavior with the idea or the fact that you like them, which is not the same thing. Yeah, and that's the great lead. So there's two things I'm talking about in there.

One is, yeah, that liking. Liking and interesting. intuition can really derail the equation of predicting behavior. It creates an immense bias that we have. And because liking is based on subjective observation more, like you share common interest, background, ethics, morals, priorities. And if we share these commonalities and we happen to live in the same place, same area, working in the same place and area, the probability of us liking them is really high. And a lot of times then people misplace liking where I can trust them. The greatest analogy I use is, you know, I'm a volunteer pilot for doing angel flights.

And so I have a best friend. I like him a lot. But he doesn't know how to fly a plane. And so just because I'd like him, if I threw him to keys of my plane because I trust him, he will get us killed. You know, so that's why liking can be a very dangerous thing. Now, intuition can be a little bit more accurate because people say, well, I'm very intuitive and I seem to judge people really well. And yet some people say, well, I like them and I don't do that. Well, intuition a lot of times is more aligned with what someone's saying and their nonverbal behavior.

In other words, intuition a lot of people think in terms of, I think, is, you know, feeling creepy around some bad use car salesman. Well, you're feeling creepy because what you have is, is you have someone saying the right words where they're saying they're making it about you and not themselves, but their nonverbals are saying completely different. And so you're getting incongruance between the nonverbals and the verbals. and our ancient reptilian brain back there picks this up and says, uh-oh, alerts up. Now, we don't know this because, you know, most people aren't like putting labels and meanings like a freak like me on them, but that's where intuition comes.

And both those things can be very fallible. And that's why if you can put those aside and then think in terms then as part of that equation of, let's assess what they think is in their best interest, what they think is their prosperity, and then the final part of the equation can be very complicated, I guess, is that are they going to take actions, consistently in terms of what they think is in terms of their prosperity. And the ones that don't,

well, that's where emotional stability comes in because if they kind of keep reacting to the world around them without thinking, yeah, they become less predictable. But they become predictably underpredictable. That's interesting. We'll dissect that in a second. I think it's important to break this down a little bit because you mentioned that we get creeped out by bad used car salesman. And some of that is when they use things in a clunky way, they try to get us to like them, for example, they'll say something like, oh, you're getting an SUV, you'd like to go fishing, and it's like, I don't know, maybe they guess wrong or they seem like they're trying to try too hard to get us to like them. They're trying to do that so that we trust them so that they

can, of course, make the sale. And we see that a lot of times people who we want or who we think we can predict are not predictable because they're, as I mentioned before, incompetence. So they couldn't even follow their own best interest even if they wanted to because they lack the ability. Yeah, and a lot of times people like that, you're literally describing someone following a script. And scripts are about them, scripts are not about the other person. So if they actually have genuine and sincerity, and what genuine and sincerity is, it's that congruence between the words and emotions. And the only way you can have words and emotions and incongruence is if you're paying attention to the other person and not following a script. Because when you're paying attention to the other person, you're seeing their nonverbals, you're hearing their words.

And where they're sharing their words with you, what you're gaining is their thoughts and opinions and their priorities because you always got to make sure you're talking in terms of those things and not terms of your own. To go back to your point about the nonverbal communication or someone's intent not matching, that sort of creepy feeling that we get, I've actually discussed this before and taught this to some law enforcement and types. People who used to do the job that you retired from, we call it congruence, right? So you get this weird feeling about somebody and you say, I don't really know why, but that creeped me out of that person was creepy. And you hear it a lot in dating as well. And some of the reasons that that might crop up, let's say in a dating scenario, because that's more relatable, is a woman will say, that guy just creeps me out. And nobody can quite explain what it is. But really, often what that is, is the nonverbal communication that that guy has might be overly sexually charged or aggressive, or maybe he secretly hates women and she's picking up on that. But he's saying things like, oh, hey, good to see you. Yeah, you come here often. You know, whatever cheesy garbage they're throwing out or they're acting really friendly. You also see it with people who,

are predators. Skilled predators, of course, can be very congruent because of their sociopathy and they have a lot of practice, but maybe a clunky predator or somebody who's not quite as skilled at that will throw out a very creepy vibe. And people can't always put their finger on it, but often it has to do with the incongruence between what their body is saying nonverbally and the things that are coming out of their mouth. Absolutely. And a lot of times those things get incongruent with intensity and like you said, sexual innuendo, tempo. I mean, those are the things that really get people off guard. And see, what's really funny is, these people might actually be effective, you know, that have high tempos and high intensity. They're probably being effective by, you know, with one or two other people

out of, you know, 50. And so they think this works for everyone. So no, you actually happen to hit one or two people that actually don't mind that tempo and intensity. And you think, because it's about you, that you don't have to adjust for anyone else. So they're completely oblivious to picking up and paying attention to others because again that goes back to the same core I said at the beginning we all want to be valued by others and we want to be affiliated with in order to do that you have to make it about them so you're the one that needs to adjust in order to adjust to them you have to understand these things about them and one of them is their tempo now tempo being what like the cadence with which they speak what exactly are we talking about really everything sure the cadence which they speak tempo for me

is part of matching with you know the distance they're requiring the topics you're talking about the frequency of contact, the intensity of the contact, you know, whether, you know, you're texting every day or you're, the other person's really looking to text maybe once a week and maybe get together maybe every other week. Tempo is every aspect of our interaction. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest today, Robin Dreak. We'll be right back. And now back to Robin Drake on the Jordan Harbinger show. Again, you see that with salespeople too, not just dating, right? You see them say something like, all right, shall I read it up for you? like, oh, whoa, look, I'm, I told you I was just here looking and now you're trying to get me

to go inside and take it for a test drive and you're trying to put my name in the documents. Like, I'm uncomfortable with this and that again can be really clunky. You have to have that sort of escalation be pretty smooth. And the best way to do that is to drag it out or to, I shouldn't say drag it out, but to escalate it over time, right? So you're not going in, when you're recruiting somebody, Russian spy, for example, in your previous life, you're not going in there, meeting them at Starbucks and being like, all right, man, I got a check for you, sign here, let's go to lunch. Like, that's not how this works.

You will fail majestically, because that is a hardcore type A personality that I was born with, and if you have it, you will fail. It's a guarantee. My books are my manuals on how not to be the moron I was born to be. And so it's coming down to just paying attention to that tempo. You know, so I got these four principles. Matter of fact, it's in sign five language, you know, that are the keys. Because remember, how do you make a conversation about the other person?

You seek their thoughts and opinions. you talk in terms of their priorities, you validate the things they said and who they are without judging them, and finally, the big one here is you empower them with choices. So here's what sales people many, many times fail to do because they fear they're going to lose the sale. They don't give people choices. But here's the guarantee, if you did any one of those things

and everything you said prior to offering them a choice, their dopamine in their brain is going, serotonin oxytocin because everything you're doing is demonstrating, I value you, and I want to be a resource for your success and prosperity. And now when you empower them with a choice about what they want to move forward with, or at what time they want to get back in touch with you, as long as you're given choices, you're making it about them. And all the years I sold patriotism,

now not necessarily spies are going to buy this every time, but for confidential human sources, human beings that actually help protect national security, when I made conversation about the other person, my final statement was always, hey, and if you'd never want to see me again, please let me know, and I'll make a note not to bother you. No one ever told me to go away. Hmm. Why would they?

Because, I mean, think about this. human beings seek to be craved by others, you know, affiliated with, like I said, and be valued. How often during the last conversation with anyone's best friend, greatest relationship you have, did you actually seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of what's important to them and their priorities, validate everything they said without judging them and or give them choices? And I'm telling you, with the best friends in your life, 10 to 15 percent, tops. Most people are around 5 to 6. And so think about the power.

If you now consciously did that in everything you wrote, everything you said with every single statement. 100%. Their dopamine and their brain is firing. Who wouldn't want to be around you? And the big thing, you know, we haven't hit on yet, you know, I'm the counterintelligence guy that says, I will not lie to you. I do not use manipulation, no deception.

One of my three anchors is open honest communication and transparency. Because if you don't have that, you won't have trust. No trust, no relationship. No relationship. Nothing moves forward. So those anchors are very, very important to me. And when you use those four things, that conversation becomes about the other person, And that's what salespeople a lot of times miss.

You can't jump right to offer them a choice because why would they want a choice? Because you didn't make it about them. But if you make that conversation about them and you seek their thoughts and patients about, hey, why are you here today? What are you looking to do? Okay. What are your priorities? What are your priorities for you and your family in this car?

What are your priorities for the carpet you're buying for your house? What are your priorities for your investing? Then you say, wow, you came up with a lot of great ideas. I think that could really be in your best interest. Here's some other ideas as well. What do you think about looking at some of these other things? All right. great now. You let me know your timeline. If anything, things sounds great to you, great. You tell me.

And if you don't want to hear from you again, also let me know. You're leaving it open. It's kind of, these people don't feel trapped by you. Absolutely. It's kind of like you're leaving the back door open and they can always go at any time. So you're enticing them. You're not forcing them to make moves. Because here's the bottom line. Two outcomes will happen in either way. If they ultimately say, nah, I'm really not interested, you're leaving them feeling better for having met you and when they walk away from you, their brain is so rewarded. So what? They didn't buy your product because now what you have is branding. Because even they walk away, the next person they bump into that needs your product, needs a service like that, they're going to recommend you because you are not

the pushy salesman. And referrals and branding are more important than the one sale because if you force that sale by forcing it using, you know, the hardcore salesman tactics, you're going to have buyers remorse. They're going to get the product maybe and they might return it the next day, returned it a week later or at the very least they're going to tell their friends and family, don't go there. Right. So you end up with a short-term win that screws you over long-term at best. I get this a lot because I work with a lot of finance companies.

I get the hedge fund guy's got to go, go, go, go, go. And they're always wondering why they can't get more growth. That's why. Because what's the definition is crazy? Doing the same thing. I expect that for results. I mean, if you're not adhering to the principles of how do you make it about them and you empower them with timing and choice.

Now, granted, I understand people put quotas on things without understanding how to increase the quota. I mean, how to increase, you know, the input to the quota. Related to law enforcement for a second. I was out in San Diego working the group out there and, you know, teaching them to code of trust and sizing people up and these things we're talking about right here. And I had these marshals at saying, hey, you know, we're doing this job.

And, you know, we got the judge saying, hey, or boss says, you know, we need to flip more of these girls. So it was human trafficking. We need to flip more of these girls against the pimps. And I said, well, are you talking in terms of their priorities? And they said, well, no, they don't want to flip on the pimp because then they're going to get beaten. I said, okay, did you seek to understand who they were and why they wound up making a choice in their lives? They said, dude, we only have five minutes or ten minutes to do each one of these things.

Then we have to move on. I said, oh, so, I said, this is easy. Tell your boss, it ain't going to change. Your numbers will not change. Because if you don't have brand, if you're not making it about them, and if you're not demonstrating how you can be a resource for their success in terms of what their priorities are, You will not increase your product output, which in their cases, they wanted to flip the girls against pimps. It's sort of scary that they don't know that already. Well, because their bosses are trying to get promoted, and you can't get promoted without numbers.

Great leaders have great patience and develop relationships because they know that's the key to internal morale. Because when you have internal morale, you have higher productivity, and then you have great brand, and then you have great product. And so what happens is you get some of these leaders out there that don't have that kind of patience. No patience. It's like everything in life. I can guarantee you to result. Before we move on, I want to mention one thing. You mentioned that appearances can be really deceptive. So whether you have confidence in somebody, you share the same religion, you work at the same place, you're from the same hometown, whatever. This is bad data and it can mislead us. And it seems obvious when I give those examples, but people use these all the time to great effect, right? Oh, we have so much

in common. We have all these commonalities. Or I have so much in common with that person. I feel an affinity for them. Sure. We totally put on our own blindfold, right? So people are really, look, a great comment is going to deceive you. But a lot of times somebody who's not really trying that hard will just let us deceive ourselves. Yeah, and I think doing all those things are absolutely fantastic because by trying to match,

you know, someone around you, whether by intention or by mistake, as long as it is because you're trying to make it about them and you're trying to build connection. Because all you're doing in those situations is developing liking. You know, again, liking can get you far. Liking can get you to a point where you might start being able to build trust and then a relationship. But I have found through my career, I have interviewed some pretty fantastic people from all the way up to heads of state to all the way from women that worked at a, what the hell was that kind of place? It was a porn place that created their own hardcore bondage stuff. Okay.

I don't know what you call those places. And if I did, I sure a shit wouldn't admit it on this interview. No, I was just trying to remember what it was called, but we had one of our intelligence officers that was into some devious porn. Okay. And what was fascinating about it was, you know, and this is where you learn just to assess the individual and the data coming in and not necessarily the look, the background, all the other biases people can have. And so I had found the post office box where they ran their business out of, and I left the business card because I figured, hey, if I can find out more information about the priorities of my individual that I might be able to use as part of a conversation one day or understand him at a deeper level, great. Again, no assessment, good or bad, just is. And so I remember the guy I was with my partner, he goes, there's no way these people are going to call you back.

Well, no kidding. I left the card. And about two weeks later, I got a call back from the establishment that created their own videos. And I explained who I was, I'm Robin Drake, I worked national security. I think one of your potential customers might be a threat to national security, and I'd love to chat about it with you if you don't mind. Again, full transparency, who I am, what I want. And they said, okay, and I said, where should we meet?

They're based out of Brooklyn. We're in Lower Manhattan. And that's how you ended up in a porn dungeon in Brooklyn. No, we met at a Starbucks off the sixth train in Greenwich Village. And that part of it was sort of unusual. You know, you learn in life never let your draw drop. because here I am, I'm sitting in a suit at a Starbucks, got my buddy with me who's also in a suit, and I'm looking forward to doing an interview just to find out about my guy, I want to sell my

American patriotism to him. And in walks, three people. Okay. The first one was a very tall, good-looking blonde woman with a leather biker jacket, tight leather pants, and spike boots, and she introduced herself as the company's lawyer. The next was the lead dominatrix who she had a few extra pounds on her, one of those biker caps and tight leather. this with things falling out all over. And on her chain, walking on falls behind her, was a very young, skiing-looking girl.

I'm just sitting there watching a show come in, and I'm about to do this interview. I was like, huh, this is interesting. And here I'm thinking to myself, what do I do to develop rapport? Where's my commonality here? And I remember saying, I said, hey, it's nice to meet you. My name's Robin. It's my friend Tom. I said, know who you are?

And they introduced the two of them. And I said, and who are you? And the Dominator who says, oh, she's one of our new actresses. I said, really? I said, so you make your own or do you buy or resell? She said, oh, no, we make her own. Like I said, she's our new actress. I said, well, good for you.

You know, it was a very fascinating experience of really letting go of biases so you can make a connection. And I've got to tell you what, they were extremely helpful, extremely friendly, and they were willing to do anything I want to believe or not. But, you know, my boss decided, you know, might be too much of a control issue. Because I did that pretty young in my career. And it was really a great first experience of just seeing. to understand others without judging them.

What do you mean by it might have been too much of a control issue? You know, very conservative organizations can sometimes, when they see such a divergence of background, they can sometimes consider that, you know, they might go off the rails and not take direction, you know, if we're doing something legal or, you know, if we want to keep them doing things legal, that was all. Oh, I see. So was it sort of like, were the FBI, maybe we shouldn't be dealing with people like this because we're not sure what they're going to do?

I think they were just scared of the unknown. Yeah, I mean, look, if you're at a Starbucks and you're talking to some bondage porn people and they walk in with, I don't know, shiny leather and gas masks or whatever the hell these people are wearing, right? Like, I can see that being jarring, although that could have probably been even more helpful. But, yeah, I get that, you know. Some places in the world. Some, yeah, I mean, I guess. Well, now we all need gas masks, so the jokes on us. Yes, I know.

But anyway, I'm sorry, it's a long story and a little unusual, but it's really not unusual in the sense of if you overlay it to, anything or anyone different from us. How do you maintain objectivity? Don't allow people to shock you. In other words, I adapt the curiosity. When you become curious, it becomes so much easier to try to understand others. Now, longevity is one of the, what do you call it, tent poles of this system as well. So people who think they won't know you for long are harder to predict.

Because why is this? They're not invested in you because their time with you is short. I kind of had the idea of tourist trap restaurants. They have terrible food. They're overpriced. They have bad service because they don't care. They know you're not coming back ever. That's a great example of lack of longevity.

But yeah, and then inside companies sometimes. Or some companies or bars do a great job of demonstrating longevity. They get to know your name when you walk in the first time. They call you by your name every time they come back to the table. Because that might get you there the second time. When you do, they recognize you and try to get you at their tables. I got a table down here in Fredericksburg, a place we go to. It's a great Italian place.

they've made the initiation to try to establish longevity. And the other thing that's done, they've vested in me too because their stinking food is awesome. So they've done a great job of building a great client base because their employees know how to do those first two things. That's a good point. So we want to create trust over time using, well, that's the longevity principle, gaining trust over time.

And people make sacrifices for people with whom they are playing a longer game, right? So you sacrifice for your coworker because you have a, the map is, longer. It's bigger. The timeline is longer, I guess is what I mean to say by this. Yeah, and these are also people in your life that establish traditions of getting together maybe for a happy hour once a week, or maybe, you know, people you have a book club one, you know, with once a month. You know, anything that establishes a pattern over time is definitely a great sign of longevity. Oh, also, you know, if your boss gives you a project that isn't just due tomorrow, but do maybe in six months or a year, that's sign that someone, you know, thinks you're there for the long haul. Now, what about some signs of

distrust, there's got to be a nice little list of signs that someone doesn't trust you other than them not being forthcoming. It's kind of reverse of all the signs of trust to me. Sure. Not to really belate one of the signs, but the signs I'm looking for distrust, or not really distrust, where someone's not really looking to make a connection, I'm going to go to language on this one. I said it already, those four things are so important. I mean, is where seeking thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of someone's priorities and discovering what they are, validating them without judging them and giving them choices. If someone is not doing that with me, that is probably the quickest, easiest sign, you know, to see that someone's not looking to have a relationship

with me, and I probably shouldn't try to push to go further. When you speak about language, what sort of red flags can we look out for linguistically from a language perspective? So, yeah, those four things is what I'm looking for, and then I always try to keep things as simple as possible. I keep circling back to other things. And so I'm looking for that language. Now, what I'm looking for is I'm looking for congruence nonverbally as they're delivering that language. So I'm looking for good eyebrow elevation, smiling, head to leaning in, palms up,

anything that's up and open saying, I have high comfort with the words I'm saying, and the words I'm saying are completely about you. So that's the congruence I'm looking for. Now, again, going back to the earlier thing we said about that incongruence, if they're saying these things and maybe their tempos off, they're two, assertive, their non-verbals are demonstrating, you know, palms down, eyebrow compression, maybe, you know, all the intensity there. That's someone who's actually probably trying to take control of a situation. And if they are, that means it's not about me. Even though they're trying to use

the right language, they have no idea how to execute. And so that's what I'm looking for. You wrote that when we are in crisis, we are less perceptive to whether or not somebody is trustworthy. This is kind of ironic and unfortunate, right? Because when we're in crisis, that may be when we need to be able to evaluate people the best, and yet it actually inhibits our ability to evaluate people. Yeah, because what's crisis? Crisis is fight or flight. And we get fight or flight, you know,

the cognitive brain gets disengaged, and then we start acting in what we think is our own best interest, just intuitively. So the reptilian brain takes over when we get in crisis, so we stop thinking, we just start reacting. And so that's why if you do recognize when you're in crisis, first thing to ask yourself and slow it down is to ask yourself, is what I'm about to do or say going to help or hinder the situation

and the relationship I'm trying to build? That gets you thinking again a lot quicker. Now, if you see someone else in crisis, I always do to try to slow them down, to get them out of it, is ask them, all right, so help me understand, slow down a second. What are you trying to achieve? So get them thinking about that before they keep reacting. They said, all right, I understand what you're trying to achieve. What are you doing right now that's either helping or hindering you achieving that?

I never give advice or guidance. I ask what I love calling discovery questions, because, is if someone can discover their path, and that's just one technique to help them out of crisis, great. Because if you start telling me, hey, you need to stop doing that. The likelihood of them doing it is almost zero. But if you make it about them by talking in terms of their priorities, asking their thoughts and opinions, and then empowering them with choices.

See, it keeps going back to these same things. That's why I've got to make things easy for myself because I said, you know, I was born to be this moron that didn't have these things. So I got to make, it's a long book, but with simple things when you boil it down, keeps coming down to the same things. human beings acting their own best interest, and we want to affiliate and be valued by others. Bingo. You have this concept of trust at first sight?

What does that mean in espionage? I think that was going back to really that whole liking thing, liking or not liking. It's a very intuitive thing that people will try to do sometimes at trust at first site. But again, if you can, if someone is doing the right things to establish that intuitiveness about themselves, so that you're intuitive about them and they're established liking, and now they're going to start using language. that I'm looking for and their language is congruent with the nonverbals. That's pretty good trust at first sight. Now, again, goes back to the phrase and book, you got to trust but verify.

Because now when I'm going to start looking for all the other signs. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Robin Dreak. We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us going. To learn more and get links to all those great discounts you just heard so that you can check out those amazing sponsors for yourself, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode.

The link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. And now for the conclusion of our episode with Robin Dreak. Later in the book, you mentioned that your old mentor had said, Good agents don't sweat, they think, and type A personalities, which many of whom are listening to this right now, were notorious warriors, which makes us susceptible to something you call emotional hijacking. Can you explain what that is? Because I think if a huge number of people listening to this are susceptible to emotional hijacking, I think we want to know what that is, how to recognize it, and how to counter it. This was such a great point in the book, because I remember my writer I work with Cam Stouth. This is my second book with him.

And when you work with someone else, they think they understand something. And I remember in his very, very specific section. I wrote what I wrote, and he tried to make it sound better. And I remember he exactly said, Robin, I was sweating bullets. And I just look at that phrase, you know, when I read it back and I'm editing, I said, Cam, agents don't sweat bullets because when you sweat bullets, you're not thinking clearly. You actually put that emotion aside, stop reacting and start thinking. You know, it's all about how do you think? How do you cognate through situations? And so emotional hijacking, or what I call crazy brain, happens when we take in stimulus we're not expecting,

and now we start reacting to it and we get emotionally hijacked. So in other words, he stopped thinking, like we just talked about a few minutes ago. And the way that you get by it is to ask yourself, is what I'm about to do or say going to help or hinder what I'm trying to achieve? And as long as you went into this engagement, this encounter, this sales call, whatever it is, understanding clearly what it is your objective is, understanding clearly and start thinking of in terms of so why should they want to? How can inspire them to want to? Now, when something goes sideways, you can take that step back instead of getting emotionally hijacked and angry, resentful, frustrated. is all those emotions, it clouds your judgment because it clouds everything you're saying because you're focused myopically on one thing alone and you're not seeing all the other possibilities

around you. So getting through that is the most important thing you can do and do it rapidly. So how do we imply that someone will be in a long-term relationship with us? How do we pull that longevity trigger either implicitly or explicitly? Are there techniques or anything that we can use to flip that switch? One thing to see if they're looking to have you vested in a long-term, relationship with them is, you know, ask them to participate in the long-term goals and objectives that they have. They're typically saying things like we instead of I, so they're including you pronoun-wise in their conversations. They give you perks and they give you, you know, some rewards and recognitions for the things that you've done. I think great key in today's age, whether it's

virtually or live, is that they encourage you to expand your training. They send you to training, to send you to conferences because these things aren't cheap. And so those are really good things to see if someone's really vested in you in the long term. When I was in the FBI, I had the supervisors I worked for. You know, they're very routinely giving me some long projects, which made me feel very good and made me want to work hard for him because they were demonstrating they valued me. Now, opposite of that, though, you know, for the negative perceptions of longevity, they forget your name and don't even seem to care. And I literally, I wasn't working for this guy, but I was working in a similar office. I was the same office space

with him. He probably called me and everyone around me three different names on three different days of a week. It was the most easily demonstrated perception that he was not looking for a long relationship with you. They don't try to connect with you on any personal level, let alone professional level. They do not care about your priorities, your long-term goals. They're not seeking, in other words, those four things, seeking your thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of your priorities, these people aren't even trying to discover them. And oftentimes, you know, a lot of times in this one, people ask me so, especially if we're in a sales world, they say, Robin, you know, I just really need, how do I speed up a relationship if I need to? You know, I don't have time to

sit around and have donuts over a course of a year. I need progress now. So all I will do is I will tell you what these things are and give caution that remember, if the tempo is not theirs and yours, you can make an attempt, but if they don't want it to go that fast, you're going to blow it because then you're going to come across like the intense, creepy car salesman. So these three things can be very effective at increasing the tempo relationship. Again, if they accept it. The first one is proximity. It is much more effective for a human being to act and interact one-on-one than it is telephone. After telephone, email, after email text.

In other words, if you just want to text a potential client or one of your employees back and forth, I guarantee you that's going to be a very slow developing relationship compared to one-on-one. Next, time. How much time are they spending with you when they get together? Is it a 30-second engagement, a five-minute phone conversation, or a 30-minute meeting? So time is an intensifier of the tempo. And that was actually the third one there, is intensity. the intensity of the conversations in which you're having. Are you having deep conversations about,

you know, the meaning of the universe and the direction of the company, the direction of your program, or you just kind of said, hey, did you have a nice day yesterday? Good. Okay, see you later. You know, so those three things. If you go to the highest level of in-person, time, and intensity, you have a higher probability of quickening that relationship and quickening that trust up. Again, but it's got to be up to the tempo of the other person, not yours. This checks out, right? That's why when you go on a trip with some, somebody like you joined some group and they take you to Bhutan. I went hiking in Bhutan. With a bunch of people I'd never met and a couple of people that I had. And I knew some of

those people before the trip and after the trip we were like BFF, right? And people that I'd never met and talked to once, you know, you're hiking with someone in a mountain for a few days. You feel like you've known them for years. You know, you trust them more than you trust somebody that you might see all the time, but you just deal with in the morning when you buy your coffee, for example. And this is also why people and companies, great companies will break bread. They say, you know, it's like, oh, breaking bread, you know, great for company morale. Yeah, well, there's a reason why, because you're doing these things. And when you include, you know, release of neuroreceptors in there because you have smells,

tastes, and sounds if you have music, then your brain is firing when they're doing these activities. That's why you have corporate retreats. That's why, you know, I've worked many, many finance companies will have client days where they bring in all their special clients and they have great poo-poo platters and they have special guest speakers for them because it gives them an opportunity. They call it networking. Sure, it's networking. But what's the purpose of networking? Intensifiers. And that's how it works.

I would assume that somebody who is not interested in a long-term relationship is doing the inverse of what we just discussed. Yeah, they're definitely doing the inverse. And so that way you can actually assess whether they're looking to have that kind of long-term relationship with you. But also, if you're making the attempt to do the same and you're being shut down in your attempt. And this is where the creepy car salesman comes across. They're not reading the signs. You know, for some reason, they do not look to have a relationship with you, but you keep pushing. you keep trying to do this. Remember this.

Every time you blast through a door that they put up, every time you do it, your brand is going out the window. Interesting, right. So if in a work setting it might be, oh, I want to get put on this long-term project that's for the next three years. And your boss says, actually, why don't we have you do this thing that ends in two months?

Right. And then if you go back again, and you can ask the same thing again and you get shut down again, the next conversation I have is say, hey, okay, I understand. I'm not, you know, worthier or not qualified to do these things? I'm curious. What kind of things do you recommend I do so that I can be qualified

for them, or where do you see me in five years? In other words, your priorities look like they're misaligned with the priorities of your boss, and so you can have it. And what was I just doing? Seeking their thoughts and opinions and talking in terms of their priorities and empower them with choices. I want to touch on competence again. You have a really interesting observation in the book. You said if people are competent in marriages and relationships, they tend to also be so at work. So I'm wondering if the inverse is also true, and it would seem like it wouldn't be, because plenty of people get divorced but are great at their jobs. What does this have to do with?

Is this a reliability factor? What are we looking at here? Yeah, because reliability is, it's not carte blanche. Just because, you know, so reliability comes down, your ability to do a job and your diligence on following through on it. So someone might be extremely reliable in their marriage, but they suck at their job because they have no skills to do it, and or they have no interest to do it, so they have no enthusiasm and intensity for it.

It's like every single one of these signs applies to a different lane in life. And so that's why I love this system also is because just because you suck at one thing, all right, that means I will not engage you in this lane because you're not willing to have a healthy relationship with me because we'll talk about reliability here because you do not have a skill or ability and or you don't have the diligence to follow through. But over here on this project I saw you do over here, you're great, you're awesome. So we're going to keep engaging over here and you tell me when you're ready to try something else. Because in other words, I don't say I can't trust you and you suck at everything

just because you are not good in one lane. These signs are very specific to each lane in which you engage. That's why you can have a guy like you said. He gets divorced. Well, he really sucks in that lane. But he can be really, really great at work because he's good in that lane. It's a generalization I made in the book is that, yeah, generally if you're good in one, the likelihood of you be good to them, only because I think marriages are a lot more challenging than work. Yeah. Because you get to leave work.

You don't get to leave your marriage. You know, and if you do, well, that doesn't mean you're necessarily bad at work. It just means you suck at relationships. And because, you know, so not all relationships necessarily because you obviously must be doing good at relationships at work. It's just for whatever reason, you know, your competence and your reliability and in that relationship went sideways. But generally, because I think, you know, relationships outside of work are much longer, you know, they have all the signs. They should have all the signs of vesting. longevity, actions, language, stability, all those things. If you can do all those things and

get into marriage, the likelihood of you transferring those skills into a different skill set at work are much higher. Not guaranteed, but generally tend to be. Later in the book, you talk about corporate espionage and elicitation, and you said, had an interesting little throwaway line where you said you were talking with this corporate espionage character, and you said he was speaking faster than I could keep up, and it might have been intentional. Okay, that's interesting. Why would someone speak faster than you can keep up? Why are they trying to keep you reeling back? What's the technique here that they were using?

Potentially. So the healthiest people in the world are the ones that are transparent and clearly understood. And if you're speaking, like I know I speak very fast. I'm originally from the Northeast. I'm an extrovert. So I speak a million miles an hour. But I try to offset it with lots of clarity, transparency, and being able to articulate. But now if someone is speaking very fast and you don't understand a word they're saying,

that's a sign, not necessarily a bad sign, but that's an area of exploration, I call it. Because if someone's now doing that, the next time I'm going to do is I'm going to say, hey, slow down for a second. I apologize. This is my problem. I got a very small brain. Back me up here and help me understand this, this and this. Now, if they re-engage in the same manner and they're just as confusing, all right, now we're out. That is not someone who's trying to do something good by you. Or, I'll caveat, not necessarily that they don't want to do something good by you, but they just don't even understand what they're doing. Because people that understand what they're doing,

they're pretty easy to follow. You know, the greatest masters of content are the ones that can get really in the weeds and also can dumb it down as much as someone needs. Yeah, that's a good point. That makes a ton of sense. I know you don't work with manipulators. In fact, you didn't end up doing that corporate espionage gig.

Right. This might be an obvious question, but why not? You know, it seems like corporate espionage, like the whole thing seems kind of manipulative in a way. It is. Or it's a little black hat, So what's the rule about there?

I assume that limits your income and you're fine with that because you're an ethical guy, but I'm curious as to why you've made that rule. Brand. It's not me as a human being. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, what matters most to me is what my family and my friends think of me and how I treat other people, you know. And my, I always want to leave people feeling better for having met me with no bars or mores for having known me.

Can't wait to see me again. And that's it. I try to live for the epitaph. I think that's a great way to be. I think it probably saves you a lot of missed hours of sleep at night as well, knowing that you're doing the right thing. Oh, yeah. Well, because, you know, when you live that way, you know, there's no drama in my life.

I never wonder who's coming to get me. I never wonder who I've wronged. Well, I might have inadvertently done it, but it lives a drama-free life. In other words, I don't do crazy because it goes back to that emotional hijacking. If I'm in situations that gets me emotionally hijacked, I'm no longer thinking clearly. And if I'm no longer thinking clearly, I'm going to start blowing healthy relationships. Dango circles right back to the beginning. You know, the guaranteed thing in life is you will not achieve anything without relationships.

I mean, you and your success and everything that you've done and everything you've achieved, it's because you've had great teachers, mentors, guides, people that inspired you, and you've had great relationships. You can have the greatest genetics in biology on the planet. But if you don't have relationships, you might as well be a moron on top of of a mountain by yourself. You know, it took me a long time to realize that. If you put relationships first, good healthy ones, and you become a resource for those people without expectation of reciprocity, everything else falls into place because now, now if we have great healthy,

healthy relationship, Jordan, you and I are a great example. We've known each other a good number of years. Yeah. You ask me to do anything. I'd do it because we have a good healthy relationship, and we don't have to be in contact every day, every month. You know, it's just, that's what healthy relationships are based at. I mean, think about, you know, the friends, you know, the couple you might maintain when you grew up, you know, those are great healthy relationships. You lost touch because you no long have overlapping priorities. But these are the people in your life that you can see today. You haven't seen them in 10 years.

You start talking. It's like no time passed at all. That's a healthy relationship. So my goal in every situation is to create those because you can't, you don't maintain thousands of relationships with everyone every day. You know, you maintain a few that overlap your sphere of influence currently, but you're not kicking anyone to the side. You know, it's like when all of a sudden someone needs something, something's going

on in life. I mean, there's no greater example right now in what's going on in the world. You know, everyone's relying on good, healthy relationships to get through things. And if you blew it and didn't have any, I guarantee you're struggling. Let's wrap with this. I thought this is a brilliant insight here. On TV, talking heads are a bad example of how to communicate. On TV, drama is an art.

In communication, it's a vice. Tell us what you mean by that. Yeah, well, what do they do on TV? You know, drama sells ad space, you know, and that's about making money. Sure. You know, but the best articulators in the worlds are the ones that, kept it simple, kept it easy and understand, just talked about what is, is cause and effect. And those are the ones that might not sell the ad space and might not be all over the social

things. But I mean, just look at, you know, Kasi right now, you know, director of human health. The world's listening to him. Anthony Fauci? That's what I meant. You know, Fauci is the most popular guy in the world right now because he's not drama. He's talking facts. He's talking science and he's giving information. He doesn't complicate it. You ask a complicated question. He makes it as simple as possible to answer. That's a great communicator. Yeah, that's leadership, I suppose. Complexity hides your message and clarity conveys it best. And I think a lot of people, they hide behind complexity, or they just think they sound smarter when they use complexity, and it's kind of the opposite.

And what kind of people do that? Insecure people, the ones that you really got to watch closely because they will act in their own best interests more often than the ones that don't. I mean, seriously, you know, Fauci, does he look like he's insecure? He's got, bigger fish to fry, I think, at this point in his career, right? I remember a question he was asked the other day. You know, it's like, hey, you know, how does your family feel about this? And what do you think about this? You're asking kind of personal background on how's it feel?

And he's like, it doesn't matter because I've been doing this for 37 years. This is my job. It's what I'm going to do. It was such a great answer to say, I'm leaning in. I've leaned in before. I'm going to lean on this. I'm going to fix it. And that gives you such confidence because that's a leader that says, I got this.

Before we go, you were hired by this corporate espionage security firm to create scripts to build trust on cold calls in a short time. I'm wondering what's in those scripts. What would be in a script you would write for this? Does something like that even exist? Yeah. In reality, what I'd done, you know, when he picked me right up at the airport and brought me right in, I wasn't actually creating scripts. I was reviewing all their scripts. And all I was doing was I was going line by line. And first of all, the first thing I said to him was, I don't believe in scripts. I don't do scripts. I said, because scripts make it about what you're saying, scripts are not listening to what they're saying. And if that's your goal, then I don't believe in scripts.

And he said, oh, well, well, you know, not everyone here is as good as you are. So he's trying to validate me. He said, so if you could really do this, you know, this is what we really want you to do. So I acquiesced. I got a little dubious on that. So I spent hours and hours going line by line. And all I was doing was going back to my four tenants. Did each one of these lines and sentences and statements in the scripts have at least seeking the person's thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of their priorities, validate them some way, and giving choice. So I was making sure at least one of those things was built in into every line because I wanted to make sure that every line was about the other person. Robin, thank you so much, man. This is always

super informative. There's so much more in the book. I had pages of notes we couldn't even get to you, but that's how it goes. We got to pick and pack. We'll just have to do it again. That's right. Thanks a lot, Jordan. Robin's always great. In fact, earlier, I meant to add this into the show here. He mentioned that we pick up subconscious signals from other people. No big secret there. We talk about that on the show all the time. So if you're nervous and maybe your hands get cold or clammy before you run to a meeting, run your hand under warm water to mask the cold. Mask the claminess, mask that nervousness. We pick that up subconsciously as well. I thought that was kind of like a, that was one of those where I pause and I'm like, is that real? But look, this isn't a guy who was in business for

very long deciding whether or not to believe some crap he read on Instagram. This is America's chief spy hunter for decades. So I'm inclined to believe him. And look, even if this one's a little bit chintzy and maybe he's off a little bit on it, you know what? It doesn't hurt to have a little extra boost of confidence before you go into a big meeting. Also, I asked him about meeting up with these informants and these spies and these double agents. He mentioned this. Whenever people are talking business for real and they have a chance to talk about money or a mutual contact, they always pick the money. So if you meet with somebody and they're doing small talk constantly and they're kind of avoiding the issue and they're just sort of BSing with you, unless they're from specific cultures

where maybe there's a bigger emphasis, let's say, on personal relationships, then chances are they're going to shift to the money and then talk about the social stuff afterwards. That's, in fact, how it works in a lot of other cultures as well. So I wouldn't take this as a hard and fast rule, but generally speaking, whenever people are talking business for real and they have a chance to talk about the money or they switch to a mutual contact,

if it's a real business discussion, they will always talk about the money first. But that was interesting as well. Big thank you to Robin Drake, The book title is sizing people up. Of course, it'll be linked up in the show notes, as always. Please do use our website to buy books because it does help support the show. We get a couple dimes, I don't know, for each one.

And it helps us track and see if anybody's paying attention out there. Also, in the show notes, there are worksheets for each episode. You can review what you've learned here from Robin Drake. We also now have transcripts for each episode. Those can be found in the show notes as well. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six-minute networking course, which is free. That's over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course.

Build your network before you need it, even if it means starting from scratch. That's why we say dig the well before you get thirsty. The drills are fast. You can do them every day in five minutes. That's Instagram time. You're just sitting there doing nothing. It's not fluff. It's crucial.

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You never know what might shake out of that. And speaking of building relationships, you can always reach out and follow me on social. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Instagram and Twitter, and I would love to hear from you. This show is created in association with Podcast One. This episode is produced by Jen Harbinger and Jason DeFilippo, engineered by Jay Sanderson. Show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty, music by Evan Viola. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own,

and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's in sales, recruiting, HR, or just likes human nature in the study thereof, share this episode with them, and I hope they get something out of it too.

I do hope you find something great in every episode of this show, so please do share the show with those you love. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are

all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.