The Jordan Harbinger Show - 361: From Self-Help Cultist to Sex Offender | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

The mindset and linguistic contortionism you developed as a self-help cult (aka Large Group Awareness Training program) follower led to you becoming a registered sex offender. How did things go so wrong, and what can you do now? This and more here on Feedback Friday. And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://jordanharbinger.com/361. On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Is the graduating class of '20 finding it especially difficult to plot a life course when everything's so uncertain right now? (Well, it's not '21 yet!) You were a self-help cult follower, which led to you becoming a registered sex offender. How did things go so wrong, and what can you do now? [Thanks once again to Corbin Payne, Esq. for his help with this one.] Even though you're in a long-term relationship, you've accidentally developed feelings for your very married mentor. What can you do to get over this embarrassingly inappropriate crush? Recommendation of the Week: Spy Wars with Damian Lewis Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. And if you want to keep in touch with former co-host and JHS family Jason, find him on Twitter at @jpdef and Instagram at @JPD, and check out his other show: Grumpy Old Geeks. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger, and I'm here with my new Feedback Friday co-host, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people and some fascinating minds. We turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, and authors to thinkers and performers. This week we had Justin Ramsdell talking about pseudoscience, how to spot it, and we even break down an ad spot for a pseudoscience BS product and show you the elements so you can spot them for yourself. Interesting episode there, and we had chess prodigy and human rights activist,

interesting combination, from the vault, Gary Kasparov. Gary's one of the best chess players in the world, and he played for the Soviet Union. He was later bested a legendary match between him and an AI computer called I-Bee, V.M.'s Big Blue, that was something that just made world history. It was the first time a computer beat a human at chess and was only the beginning for AI.

He's always an interesting catch. Also, I write every so often on the blog, the latest post is about why networking is the best insurance policy. Now is a great time to be digging that well, even if you are already thirsty. So make sure you've had a look and listen to everything that we created for you here this week. Of course, our primary mission here on the Jordan Harbinger Show is to pass along our guests and our own experiences and in the information.

insights along to you. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you, and that's what we're going to do today and every Friday here on Feedback Friday. I just want to place one brick in the structure that makes up your life. That's really what this podcast is about, and you can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. By the way, a lot of people have been asking me what I should do with my life. I think it's the class of 2020 graduating into the worst economy in memory. I graduated in the 2008 destruction, but I was right before that's already had a job. So I guess I understand why people are so uncertain.

While this is a massive question loaded with complexities, I will offer you this oversimplified answer, but this is a good drill or exercise, if you will. This is a question you can ask yourself to find work that you'll really enjoy. What do you enjoy refining and honing to the point of absurdity? It's these areas you just can't help yourself

from editing, optimizing, doing, and then redoing things where you have a long-term advantage. That last part is key. for me, it's constantly working on my voice, constantly working on the show flow and the workflow, constantly finding new angles for the show. That I've become obsessed with, and that has generated a lot of success in podcasting. It's also what Tony Hawk was doing when nobody cared about skating. He was working on tricks and skating and staying fit. And it's what I was doing in the first,

I don't know, 12 years of my 14-year podcasting career here, just working on things and thinking, if this never pans out, I've enjoyed the process. And lo and behold, 15 years to an overnight, well, 14 years to an overnight success. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailback? Well, just a quick heads up here before we dive into the first question. This one's pretty intense. It's also a little longer than our usual questions, but it's absolutely fascinating, and we felt it was important to share with you guys.

We also want to mention that this question does include some pretty frank description about a sexual situation and deals with issues of consent, so take that into account. Dear Jordan and Crew, I listen to your podcast with cult expert Stephen Hassan, That's episode 237 and 238, by the way, if you want to check those out, and realized that I was subject to undue influence, hypnosis, and destructive mind control. Worse, I took actions based on this influence and mind control that have since resulted in a sex offense conviction for me. Now I need help. Here's the story.

In November of 2010, my aunt recruited me into a large group awareness training program called Zarvos coaching. I attended this workshop because she thought it would help me become more confident, which I've always struggled with. I was especially grateful for her generosity when she offered to pay. I was 18 at the time in a freshman in college. I did not think I had anything to lose except a few evenings and a weekend. Following level one of the Zarvost Breaking Through program, my aunt decided to pay for me to attend level two, which was very intense and consisted of a variety of exercises like screaming at each other,

I matter, pounding a chair with a pillow on it and screaming about past injuries and pain, lying on the floor for guided visualizations back to our first childhood memories, and sitting in a pitch black room while sharing our deepest, darkest secrets with each other. Following Level 2 was the VIA program. VIA stands for Vision in Action and is a 90-day program. The goal of the program is to enroll other people at least three of them in our vision for the world, which just so happened to require signing up and paying for a Zarvis Level 1 workshop. If we could get people to sign up for the whole package, we were praised even more.

I enrolled three people into Zarvos, including my bandmate at the time, Eric. Erica started her Zarvo's journey in the summer of 2011. She enrolled her husband in level one. He was skeptical of the entire thing, but Erica went all the way through VIA like me. I graduated from VIA in September of 2011 and still felt unaccomplished. One of my motivations for joining Zarvost was to get over a lost love of mine, but if I looked within myself, I could still find those feelings, and so I felt like a failure. I felt like I needed to do something even more drastic than Zarvost to fix myself. So I decided to quit the band, give away most of my possessions and live in the wilderness out west until I, quote, unquote, found myself and

quote unquote loved myself. You know, I'll pause here right here. This is already sad because I've done some of these personal development workshops and they deliberately take advantage of people that feel a little bit lost. I just want to sort of give context here because I normally I wait till the end, but this is something that they are looking for. They are looking for people that are a little lost. And, you know, we always say like, oh, have an open mind, have an open mind, be open, be able to do new things. This is one of those instances in which when people come in and they seem skeptical, they do everything like, oh, you know, these people are just naysayers. This is where skepticism becomes extremely healthy because it stops you from getting conned. And that sounds like what's

happening here. This guy going into the wilderness to find yourself, I mean, that is, that's a tough one. That's the realm of I don't have any other options left. So I'm going to literally leave civilization to get rid of the distraction, not good. Yeah, you can hear a lot of the preconditions for falling into these traps in this email already. Yeah. Yeah, I feel for this guy, but, you know, the signs are really clear. So let's keep going and see where this goes. So I came back home in early 2012. My experience out West was amazing and beautiful, but I didn't find myself. I returned to Indiana feeling even more lost than I did when I left. A month later, I was in jail for allegedly forcing Erica, my band

partner and one-time best friend to perform oral sex on me. Here's how that happened. Essentially, Erica told me one day that she fantasized about me, that she and her boyfriend at the time had only had sex three times in their three years of marriage, that she thought he might be gay, that she thought she might be a lesbian, but wasn't sure, and that she liked to be forced to have sex. As our conversation progressed, I felt like Erica was coming on to me. I asked probing questions like, would you ever give me a blowjob to try and get a feel for her intentions and desires? She laughed at me and said, why would you ask that? At one point, I kissed her. She laughed. I felt like her laugh was her saying, is that all you're going to do? She also repeated that, quote, there was a chance she could be straight, unquote. I felt like it was up to me to, quote, liberate her true self, unquote.

I felt like I needed to take the risk and, quote, give her permission, unquote, to be true to herself. Or at least give her the opportunity to discover her sexuality for herself. I got to say you're killing it with the quote unquote. There's a lot of air quotes. And those are tough to do in a letter like this. I'm trying to include them so you guys know the language he was using. I think he's trying to make a reference to some concepts that he picked up in the workshop. So I just want to...

That's what I'm highlighting, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This whole liberate your true self. Give her permission to be true to herself. This is not stuff that normal people think of. This is stuff they pump your head full of when they're trying to upsell you into the next personal development program. So I totally get why he took this and internalized it after a 90-day plus program with this self-help sham. Well, hang on to your hats because there's more of that coming.

I felt like I needed to be the person Zarvos had taught me to be. I needed to be a, quote, powerful, loving, authentic leader, unquote. If I were to use their language, I would replace needed to be with got to be. In other words, I got to be a powerful, loving, authentic leader. When I was arrested, I gave a blanket confession to this alleged crime because I thought I was the, quote, source of everything I experienced, unquote. More freaking self-help workshop garbage. Everything that happens to you is your fault. Oh, did you get abused as a child?

Well, what did you do to bring that on to yourself? Well, we don't have to get answered to that next person in the audience. Continuing with the letter here. And if the reality I was experiencing was one where Erica felt I forced her to perform oral sex on me, then that must be the quote, unquote, truth. Man, let me just wrap my head around that sentence. If the reality I was experiencing was one where Erica felt I forced her to perform oral sex on me, then that must be the truth. That's heavy because in any other situation where you, you thought that's not what happened, you would say, well, hold on a second. That's not our shared

reality that we got to talk this out. But instead, he gave a blanket confession. And now, look, that's, if you're trying to hash something out with a friend and you say, hey, that's the way you see it, I'm so sorry about that. I didn't intend for that. That's one thing. But I assume he gave this blanket confession in a police station, which is why he ended up in jail. Sounds like it. Yeah. Yeah. It's really complicated because it sounds like there's a piece of this where he was doing this for reasons that he might have thought were noble, like taking her experience seriously. But it got wrapped up in the teaching of the course that probably replaced some more basic concepts that were true. It's very mixed up. This is interesting. Okay, I'll continue with the letter now. The state of Indiana took my blink in confession and ran with it. Erica lied about most of what happened that night. And even though my confession did not corroborate the specifics of her testimony, They took general statements I made like, I guess I forced her, and used them as evidence that her story was true. While sitting in a jail cell, questioning my sanity, I requested a meeting with the jail psychiatrist.

After a couple of days, I met with her and told her I was in there for, quote, forcing my best friend to give me a blowjob, unquote. She asked me how I forced her, and I told her I didn't know that Erica said I had pinned her down. The psychologist looked at me and said, you need to fight for your life right now. Imagine sitting there in this office and you are in jail and you tell the psychologist what happened and she just immediately sober straight up and goes, whoa, you need to, you need to fight for your life right now. There's no kind of clearer signal from a prison psychologist. She knew what was about to happen. She was like, you're getting railroaded and you did it to yourself.

You need to figure this out immediately because you're going to go to court and you're going to spend a long time in prison. And this from somebody who I imagine is probably pretty jaded by the system. It's probably just like overwhelmed with cases and trying to get through the day. Like it probably takes a lot for that person to stick their neck out and say you need to fight for your life. Right. Like it sounds like you're innocent. She sees guilty people every day all day long. 100%.

So I went back to my cell and wrote down everything I could remember about that night. Interesting. Interesting exercise. Yeah. After reading and rereading what I had written, I finally concluded that I did not force Erica to perform oral sex on me, at least not intentionally or knowingly. Alas, it was too late. The police already had my confession on video. I bonded out after 40 days and decided to go to jury trial, believing the truth would set me free. That is a bold strategy. Holy molly. I hired an attorney and had a three-day

trial. After six hours of deliberation, the jury convicted me of both charges, criminal deviate conduct, and sexual battery. The judge ordered a psychological evaluation to be conducted prior to sentencing. I sat in jail for five months waiting for this to happen. My attorney and the prosecution had to agree on which psychiatrists to use. They chose to go with the prosecution's choice, a facilitator of the sex offender management and monitoring program. I think the important detail there is that they went with the prosecution's choice. Yeah. The psychiatrist conducted interviews with my dad, stepmom, and aunt, the one who enrolled me in the cult.

Thanks, Auntie. That must have been a mind. Like, what was she thinking when she walked in the room to give her interview? That's so wild. Jeez. He also conducted an interview with me and had me complete the Minnesota multifacic personality inventory. It sounds like a standardized test prior to our interview. Probably some psychological test.

In his report, which is part of my court paperwork, the psychiatrist wrote that, quote, there is nothing to suggest that he is sexually abnormal or a sexual predator, unquote. Nonetheless, the judge affirmed the criminal deviate conduct conviction, which requires me to register on the sex offender registry for life as a sexually violent predator. Additionally, this conviction requires me to be on lifetime parole and labels me as a serious sex offender, which means it is a felony for me to be on school property. This means that if I decide to have children, which I've always wanted, I cannot be the kind of father I want to be. I cannot visit them at school.

I cannot pick them up. It is literally a crime. I cannot get a job anywhere for a livable wage. I have attended a coding boot camp and graduated. I have taught myself computer programming on my own time. I have obtained certifications from Salesforce, Amazon. Comp TIA. After having multiple job offers rescinded because of my felony, I decided to start my own LLC where I do web development, software development, and Salesforce. My lack of real-world experience

has been a considerable hindrance, though. I have lived most of my adult life as a wrongly convicted sex offender. I served two years, nine months, in jail and prison. Oh, man. I completed two years of probation where I was subjected to group therapy for sex offenders. This experience was extremely psychologically damaging to me, and I am still traumatized from it. That sounds horrible. You're a guy who didn't really do anything according to him, and then you're in this group therapy with a bunch of rapists and child molesters, and you're in the same group. Like, you're a part of that whole click according to the penal system and the state of wherever he's from. That's horrifying. Yeah, just stacking the punishments. Yeah. Like, let me out of

here with these crazies. Well, it gets a little worse. Although I think this next bit is very revealing, he says, I am now trying to live in a world that, rightfully, in my opinion, does not want sex offenders in it. However, I am not guilty of what I was accused of and convicted of. Nobody wants to hear it. No one understands the brainwashing I experienced that caused me to confess to a crime that never even happened. I consider suicide regularly and have even written my state representative asking that they enact legislation that would allow state-facilitated suicides for convicted sex offenders.

That is horrible to hear. He's in a dark, dark place. Yeah. This is also very revealing. He says, I've been leery about blaming my experience on Zarvos as I do not want to play the victim. But I am starting to see that I am a victim as well as Erica. Let me pause you right here. They definitely intended to victimize you.

Not in this way, of course. They intended to take your money, rip open old wounds that they program you to think only they can help you with and pump you full of baloney. so that you keep buying their advanced coaching and programs and all that other stuff. They intended to victimize you. They just didn't intend it to turn into a criminal offense that you later confess to because of this. But they don't actually give a crap.

A lot of these large group awareness training places, they don't care. I've done a bunch of these. I am not talking out of my, you know what. I go to these for the experience. They're always weird as hell, and they're always extremely sophisticated in their level of manipulation.

It's something I can only do maybe once every couple of years because it takes you a while to shake it off. And you have to have an anchor. I had Jen, she goes, call me every night. This is before we got married. We were living apart at this point for the first one. And I would call her every single night. And I would debrief with her for like an hour, hour and a half. And she was starting to get nervous because she's like, you know, you're starting to say some of the.

And I'm like, yeah, but I know that it's not this. But I will say there's a kernel of truth than this other thing. but I know that it's not like that. I mean, I went in there knowing this was brainwashy to try and get its feel for the experience and see the techniques they use, and it still ends up working on you a little bit, and you have to wait, and, I mean, it's all you can do

to not upgrade to the next thing. I had to have Jen be like, don't do it. Don't do it, do the next one. And I was like, but they said, if you wait, then, and she's like, you realize you're parroting their marketing, and I'm like, oh, yeah, like I'm shaking it off. You know, I'm washing my face with a towel, and she's, don't.

Don't do it. Wait till the next one. I remember it very clearly. I'm trying to wash the brainwashing off of me. So I understand this. This isn't a matter of being weak-minded or something like that. They intended to victimize you, and that's what happened. It just got out of hand, and it got way worse than they expected. Let's wrap up the rest of this, and then we can talk more deeply about it. He writes, but listening to Stephen's interview on your show and receiving a consultation from him has given me hope. Stephen Hassan, again, the cult expert who was on our show last year. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show, and it is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. And now, back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger Show. Maybe there's a way to introduce this new evidence to the courts and explain what Erica and I both experienced in the cult that would satisfactorily account

for the events that took place in 2012 and explain how a nonviolent, intelligent, and compassionate 19-year-old can be convicted of an extremely serious sex offense. I need help. I need help processing these events in my current circumstances. I need help in generating income and stability in my life. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and thank you for your show, wrongfully confused. Wow. Well, that was unusually long, but I think worth it.

You know, by the way, Stephen Hassan's episodes will link in the show notes are 237 and 238. It's a combating cult mind control. It's a two-parter, as you might imagine, with cult mind control. So there are so many things. here. I want to start with some of the legal stuff. I, of course, reached out to Corbin Payne as a criminal defense attorney friend of the show, and his letter was similar to my sentiments here in that we really feel for this guy. Unfortunately, the laws surrounding getting placed on the sex offender registry are harsh, and they are intense. And that makes sense, but it's also really awful for people in this

situation. By the way, you can appeal a sex offender registry entry after 10 years. years, which is a long time. But the only reliable way to get off the sex offender registry before that 10-year appeals period is to successfully appeal the original conviction and get it overturned. And due to the amount of time that has passed on this case, the options surrounding an appeal are going to be limited. The best bet to get this overturned would be to present new evidence that you did not have at the time of the original trial, which would, if true, exonerate you, and that's a very rare thing. So I wouldn't, and Corbin Payne would not advise you to hold your breath on this particular outcome. Despite all the doom and gloom, though,

me and other people here at the Jordan Harbinger show are impressed by your handling of this case. It is rare for a defendant to take an accusation to trial these days. Most people look at the charges and fold without going to trial because they can't hold up under pressure. And you did hold up under pressure. It might not feel like you did, but you did. Further, you're kind of lucky that you spent as little time incarcerated as you did. Not to minimize what had to have been a hellish experience being in prison at a young age. I think you and your attorney must have made you a case if, you must have made the case effectively enough that the judge was not comfortable going after you harder. And it seems that you persuaded the jail psychologist that everything was not as it seemed

and persuaded the investigating psychiatrist that you are not a predator. And that's actually quite a victory, I think, and the notes from that are probably going to help you move forward later on. So make sure that you have that documented, if possible. That's going to be very helpful for you. That evidence and those little tiny wins in the context of the larger losses, look, they pale in comparison to being on the registry, but they are worth noting. You sound a lot more articulate than the average convict, and again, this is not just my opinion. This is Corbyn Payne, attorney at law. You've advocated for yourself 10 times better than most people in the court system. This inclines all of us here to think that you have what it takes to pick up the pieces of your life and move forward.

You know, a lot of people don't do so well with this. You seem like you still have your head on straight. You're just, you just hit a wall. I wish that we had better news here. Most legislatures set up the sex offender registry to make it extremely difficult for people on it to get off of it for obvious reasons. And just think about it. if you had kids, you wouldn't want some technicality to get the local perv kid toucher, you know, type off of the list and then move next door to you and not have to disclose. That would be

horrible. This is a prime example of why everyone should be very cautious about making statements to the police without an attorney being present. I know you thought you were doing the right thing because of this stupid large group awareness training, but had your lawyer been there, he would have said, you know what, this is not going to work. This is not a confession. What he's saying is this, this and this. Based on the... what we've read here, it does not sound like the investigating officers did anything wrong, but you had your head rewired, and you're making statements that the police and a jury believe constituted a confession. So in this case, some reprogramming by a freaking cult led you to make

some poor choices and statements, but saying the wrong thing or accidentally admitting to something are a lot easier for people unfamiliar with the legal system to do than most people realize. You'd be shocked at how easy it is to confess to a crime. In fact, I was researching this, the other day. This is a totally separate issue, but the largest intelligence leak in United States history was debatably Robert Hansen from the FBI. And when they arrested him, they said, were you only working for the Russians or were you also working for something, something, something? They asked him this. This is an FBI agent. And he said, yeah, it was just the Russians. That was his confession. And it was just a casual question in the back of the car. So were you only working for

the Russians or was it somebody else? And he said, no, it's just the Russians. That was it, life in prison, you know, confession. That was it. I mean, they had evidence other than that, but that's his life without parole and his supermax facility. So it is easy for people unfamiliar and it's also easy for people familiar

with the legal system to accidentally say something that can be tandem out to a confession. All in all, look, you're in for a rough time as long as you're on the sex offender registry here in the United States. However, you have done an excellent job of self-advocacy and you have what it takes by the sound of this letter to take whatever other advice you get, whatever other pieces of your life and move forward.

And I truly believe that. Now, to my practical advice for you, I think what you could do, and again, this is just a suggestion. What would I do if I were in your shoes? I would not be thinking about how to end my life. You have suffered an injustice. Don't let the bastards win,

especially some lame-o large-group awareness training. You are obviously intelligent and you are growth-oriented. Don't let these turds from some large group awareness training thing destroy your entire life. They might have gotten a couple punches to the job, but I think you can do a few things. First of all, you are cut out to be an entrepreneur

and you also have no choice now, because if you're going to get denied jobs, but you are self-motivated from what it sounds like with all this learning, you can learn anything that you want, and you clearly have so you can start your own business. You don't have to declare anything to anybody if you're a felon, if you're an entrepreneur, I'm sure. For all I know, Gabe, you're a felon, but you're an independent contractor, so I don't care. You can also wait it out overseas.

You know, I know people that live in Eastern Europe. They live in Russia. They live in China. They teach English. They do IT work. They learn local languages to fluency. Nobody over there, you're not required to tell those people a damn thing when you're over there. And you can travel abroad. You can live abroad. You can make a living abroad. There's absolutely nothing that the United States so far as of the laws here in 2020 can do about that. You could go abroad and make a living for yourself in Russia, China, learn languages to fluency, which makes you super competitive, start businesses over there, have friends, meet a life partner over there, all the while, not having to worry about any of the restrictions of being a felon here in the United States or

being on any of those registries. I think you can go over there and you can start fresh and you can live the life that you want and you literally will not even know. that you have this blemish on your record. Sure, if you meet somebody and you start seriously dating, you're gonna have to say, look, here's what happened, and you can explain it to them, and if you're already in a relationship, they're not gonna care. Meanwhile, you're not trying to avoid going to schools

and stuff like that, because you're on some registry for some thing that you have to be afraid of for the rest of your life. It's not gonna chase you around. And then, when it comes time for the appeal, hire a lawyer here in the United States and get to work on overturning that or getting off that list

and dedicate yourself to the appeal. to that. But I don't think this should destroy your life, especially at your age. You are not guilty, according to your story, of anything other than getting duped by a large group awareness training and unfortunately getting thrown under the bus by your friend. And I'm sure there's a few theories as to what happened there. I know that we've redacted some parts of this letter, but it sounds like this is one of those past the buck scenarios potentially and or she was also brainwashed and confused me. She was there too. So who knows what kind of crap got into everyone's head. It's just a, the whole situation is just a damn shame. Gabe,

what do you think about this? I 100% agree. I think that's basically, what's hard about this letter is that in a way he's presented an impossible problem because the conviction will almost certainly not be overturned. It'll be a blemish on his, on his record, I guess for the rest of his life. And so there's a huge piece of this that is just about coping with it and learning how to work with it and not letting it stop him from living a fulfilling life. And if he can do that, he'll be doing better than most people who are dealing with this problem. There is also a piece of this that, man, I don't want to sound like I'm invalidating how hard this has been because this is really rough. But in a sense, this could be pushing you, it could be forcing you to consider your

career in a way that you wouldn't have otherwise and could actually lead to greater success. Because it sounds to me like you're naturally entrepreneurial, you're very curious, you sound intelligent. You've taught yourself how to code. You've gotten all these certifications. You're already making moves for yourself. And assuming that this doesn't stop you fully from getting clients and paying taxes and delivering work to people, you could actually be in a better position than you might have been just from the standpoint of your professional career. Like, you know, you could be doing better than you might if you were working for Amazon, for all I know. the hardest part about this is probably going to be like dealing with the implications of your story.

And I have to say that if you're going to go ahead and appeal after 10 years, which it sounds like you are and you probably should, then there's going to be a phase of this where you have to do an even bigger version of what you did in the jail cell when you sat down and you wrote down exactly what happened. And I think it could be really helpful for you to sit down and write the story from beginning to end, putting a lot of thought and detail into it. consider publishing it as a collection of essays or a book, even if it's an e-book that you self-publish, and kind of putting out an objective record of the story as you see it, as you know it happened to you. And, I mean, this might be a little wishful thinking on my part, but if you happen to encounter a client who says, you know, I did a background check on you and I found this thing, I'm sorry, I can't work with you, then at least you could say, would you please take 10 minutes and read the first chapter of this book that I published,

so you understand exactly what happened to me. And at least then you have a fighting chance in controlling the narrative around what happened to you as opposed to just letting people find your record and make all the assumptions that they would make all the stuff that that kind of conviction brings to your reputation. And maybe that story, those essays, that book, it might also become a part of your appeal

or your appeal to be taken off the list. I mean, this could be really, really useful for you legally and it could be very therapeutic for you personally. It might actually also be worth checking out the interview Jordan did with a guy named Justin Perperney, who served some time for white collar crime or a few white collar crimes, right, Jordan? Yeah, he was a guest on the show, and he was convicted of, he did some financial shenanigans. Yeah, I think it was a form of corporate fraud, if I remember correctly.

It was. He was like a stockbroker, and he basically conned somebody out of a bunch of money for his company when he was younger. And he now writes about the felony, talks about the felony. that is episode number 226 from the Jordan Harbinger show. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. But he talks freely about this. And he talks about how his time in prison was some of the best time he's ever spent because it helped him get through the dark spot

that he was in when he was committing those crimes. Now, your situation's a little different because you went to prison and you didn't get through a dark spot that you were in when you committed crimes. You were railroaded essentially. So it's a different situation. But the point is that this is somebody

who now talks freely. about the felony instead of hiding it. And that has made him much better off for doing so because he doesn't feel like he has a dark secret that someone can find out at any minute. It's literally the first thing that they find when they Google him. Yeah. And I would add that, you know, we have to acknowledge that committing a white collar crime carries a different stigma from committing a crime like this. So I recognize that they're not the same thing. But just based on your letter, assuming everything you're saying is true, which I have a pretty strong feeling it is, I would find you pretty sympathetic, especially with the details that you choose to include.

I mean, it's troubling and it's a little unsavory, but it is ultimately sympathetic because you're a good storyteller. You have a good insight and a control of detail. And I think you could tell your story in a way that helps people understand that you're the exception to the rule. I also know that that might be scary to do to own it that publicly. But I think that's exactly the point. Like, it might be your best recourse to own the story and try to control it to some degree. And writing into the show could be the first step in that process, you know? So it also might be the document that ends up saving you when you can appeal in 10 years.

but I think at this point, given everything that's happened, the best course is to try to control it and make it work for you in the best way you possibly can. That was heavy duty, man. We've never spent that much time on a Feedback Friday question. If this is your first episode of the show and you're just like, what is going on? This is unusual.

But I wanted to give him a real answer because he spent three years in prison and this isn't like somebody who can't find a job or doesn't know what they want to do with their life. It was like the stakes are so much higher on this one. Please tell me this next one is a little lighter. Yeah, this one's a little bit, a little bit easier to wrap your head around. This is the Jordan Harbinger show, and you are listening to Feedback Friday.

We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us going. To learn more and to get links to all of those great deals you just heard so that you can check out those amazing sponsors for yourself, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And now, for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. All right, let's hear it. Hey, Jordan. I've got an unusual workplace relationship situation I was hoping to get some advice on.

I'm in my late 20s and I've been working at my current company for a little under three years. The company itself is great, but it's not quite the field I want to be in. And when you add some crappy workplace politics into the mix, I'm finding that I'm struggling to stay motivated in my job. Recently, though, I befriended an older male coworker. He's about 40 who's in the field I want to be in. Older, 40? Ugh, I feel gross now. I think that's relative to her.

He's intelligent, bold, extremely professional, great with people, and a genuinely good person. He saw my struggles in my current job and ended up becoming my unofficial mentor, helping me open up many, many doors from a career standpoint, which I am incredibly grateful for. I don't think there's an ulterior motive there. He told me that he was also in the same boat once and that one of his female colleagues helped him out in the way that he's currently helping me. So I think he's just passing the favor along. That being said, oh boy, here we go. Yeah, here we go. That's the turning point.

That being said, this guy is very flirty. Over the last few months, we've been Skyping back and forth, and there's been a lot of playful banter. The thing is, he's like this with everyone at the company. People have even come up to him and asked if he was secretly sleeping with his teammate, which he very much wasn't. Well, how do you know? That's true.

I don't see that you would know. Yeah, that's a good point. Unless it's her. Right, unless it's her and this is like a weird third person. I'm guessing from the contacts that it is very much not. her. Okay. Let's go with it and assume that she's right about that. Okay, fine. Continuing with the letter, I think the whole flirtiness thing is just part of his persona. Most people seem to be able to handle it and have a mutual understanding that this is all for fun.

Plus, he also constantly mentions publicly how much he loves his wife and kid, so people don't think twice. At the end of the day, I think he just enjoys being liked by women and getting attention from them. However, I think his flirtiness affects me a bit differently, and I'm starting to develop feelings for him. Oh, interesting. Interesting. Now, this is problematic on my end because I have a boyfriend whom I love dearly and whom I've been with for over 10 years.

But that hasn't stopped me from developing feelings for married work guy, which is really frustrating because he's supposed to be my mentor, not my teen-like crush. Not only that, but I think work guy has now picked up on this and is now constantly bringing up his wife and kid around me, and now I feel completely embarrassed. He used to IAM me every week for multiple days, and I've noticed that that's how much. happening less now. All right. Because this professional relationship is too valuable, I want to continue staying friends

with him, but I can see that I'm having a bit too much fun with him. And because some of our past conversations were a little deeper and more personal, for example, he helped me with my struggles with anxiety, and at times were possibly inappropriate. For example, he made a joke about my underwear at one point. I felt like this was starting to border on emotional cheating, even though work guy doesn't feel the same way. I don't know if that's true. We don't know what he's feeling.

Yeah. We don't really know what work guy is feeling, do we? No, we don't. She's making some assumptions about how a lot of other people in the office feel, which I think is interesting. But, again, just presenting the facts. Okay. They didn't sleep together, but he also doesn't feel that way. Exactly.

Yeah. Okay. It's interesting that a lot of this letter is so focused on her experience that I think she discounts maybe what other people are doing or feeling in the same situation, which we'll get into in just a second. The rest of the letter goes like this. I felt so guilty and awful that I ended up telling my boyfriend all this, and he was surprisingly very understanding about it all. He said that he's come across people like work guy before and that the best thing to do at this point for me is to establish emotional boundaries when interacting with work guy, cool off on the conversations and remind myself that at the end of the day,

this is a professional environment and the flirtiness was just part of who work guy was. My biggest concern right now is how this is going to have an impact on my professional reputation if people find out that I have a crush on work guy. Because of my childhood upbringing, I have a tendency to seek validation from older men who are, authority figures in the workplace. If this crush gets out, I'm worried my reputation here will be permanently tarnished, and I'll be labeled as, insert, whatever unkind word here. On top of all that, I'm having trouble distracting myself from the situation

because I don't have a lot of work to throw myself into, partly due to the COVID situation. What else can I do to get over my mildly inappropriate crush and manage this? Sincerely safer at home? Ooh, man. Well, you're already doing some things right. For example, you should definitely not tell anyone at work because that's how this gets back to you in a way that's unnecessary. So 100% do not go around talking about this with people at work. I do not think that is necessary at all.

I normally recommend getting involved in outside social activities because that type of distraction is the best thing for a work crush. That said, in the time of COVID-19, that is far less possible. But the idea is sound. Make sure once the plague lifts, you've got an active social life to get back to. Seeing someone excel at work can build admiration and it can build respect between you and them, but it can also produce all kinds of annoying fantasies. The more elusive, the person, the higher status they are in the workplace, the easier it is to sort of build this fantasy narrative around them, filling in the blanks in their personality,

the personality that you know, their work personality, with something that your 10-year-old relationship is maybe missing. So, oh, but he's so successful and he's so funny and he's always upbeat. And my boyfriend is going through work troubles right now and he's a little bit down. And he's, you know, you're filling in the blanks. You're idealizing this person because you have limited contact with them. So instead of fantasizing about the crush, redirect your mind to all of the negative emotional consequences that could result. No relationship happens in a bubble.

There's collateral people. There are relationships involved. And if you feel tempted, just remember how, awkward and potentially crushing the conversation was with your boyfriend of 10 years. I think that should dry things out pretty quickly. Imagine that conversation only it's much, much worse. He's far less understanding and whatever you did was way worse than what you're talking about now. Well, I felt warm and cozy on a Zoom call, you know, big deal. It sounds like this person is more entertainment right now because we're on lockdown, more than a serious threat to your relationship. So I would

create, as you mentioned, and maintain those boundaries. Mute the guy on social media. Anytime it's going to pop up in a feed that you're not actually thinking about, you don't need that. You don't need more exposure. And remember that a person you know that happens to be an outlet for your emotions is not the same thing as having emotions for that person. So someone who's an outlet for your emotions is not the same thing as having emotions for

that person. That's the key, right? If it's just like, I'm bored, I'm at home, there's a flaw in my relationship because I've been with the same person for 10 years. I have an outlet for an emotion based on this guy. That doesn't mean you feel those feelings for that person. You would feel them for anybody that wasn't your current partner that you had that much exposure to that said all the right things, you know?

I hope that makes sense. I totally agree. And I think she's in a tough position that a lot of people, especially women, I imagine, find themselves in a lot of the time. Like she's developed a relationship that is really fruitful and important to her in a lot of ways, but it comes with this ambiguity and conflicted feelings that are complicated of the relationship, possibly some agenda on his part. Maybe, I mean, I want to talk about that for a second because it's worth unpacking.

I'm getting the sense that he is aware to some degree of the dynamic between them because he seems to be very careful about when he brings up some of these details like his wife and his family. And that makes me think that at a minimum he is picking up on her head. hesitation or her concerns and trying to alleviate them. And that might be coming from a perfectly good place. But it could also be, again, I don't know this person. He's not writing in. He's not like sitting in front of us.

We're not talking to him. But I feel like that could also be manipulative to a little bit of a degree in the sense that he might be using it to signal to the other person that he's not a threat, but continuing to flirt and laugh. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about that. Not like, oh, I have a wife and kid and they're so great. So nothing's going to become of this.

But more like, oh, I'm harmless. I have a wife and a kid. I couldn't possibly be trying to get with you. I couldn't possibly be trying to bang the women in the office. No, I'm not sleeping with my partner. That everyone thought that. That's hilarious. Ha, ha, ha.

I have a wife and a kid. Did I tell you? You know, that kind of, I never even thought about that. Dude, you just brought that office to life right there. Yeah. I have such an image now in my head of this person. But look, she wants to keep this person as a friend and a mentor, but she's struggling with the gray area.

And the costs of ending that relationship, if she wanted to do that, are pretty high. He's helped her out significantly, and we all need people like that in our careers, right? But then she loses a significant source of professional support if she does on the relationship. And that's important, too. So it's a really difficult dynamic, and I feel for her. And I also think a lot of people have been there. As for your question about your reputation, I think that fear, just based on what you've shared, is mostly in your head. I totally get it and you should be concerned about your professional reputation.

But unless you've told a bunch of people or acted very overtly around the office, then you probably aren't going to be labeled as anything. People might wonder, I guess, maybe they'll speculate if they see you guys talking a lot or see you indulge in those Zoom vibes or something. I don't know. But now that you've backed off a little bit and he's backed off a little bit, I think they'll probably forget pretty quickly. But if you ever get a feeling that people are talking about you guys, I mean, you might consider just bringing it up point blank. Jordan, tell me if I'm crazy, but they haven't done anything. So she's in a pretty good position. Like she could just say to somebody, look, I'm getting a weird feeling that you think there's something going on between me and work guy. It's okay. We can talk about it. But is that what's going on? Like, do you think that? Do other people think that? And if they say, well, kind of, then you can just set the record straight. Like, you're in a good position because nothing happened yet. So overall, I wouldn't indulge that thought any more than is strictly necessary. You can drive yourself insane worrying about what other people are thinking about you when nothing has happened. And what you feel in your head is not what other people perceive in their heads. So I don't mean to reject the fear. I totally get it. I just don't think it's as threatening

as you think it is. You know, one thing that comes to mind here is that she mentions that she has a tendency to seek validation from older men who are authority figures in the workplace. And this to me, this is meaningful here because, and first of all, I commend yourself awareness. It sounds like you've done some work in this area. I know she wasn't really specific about this. She just said because of the way I was raised. So who knows what's going on there? But this is extremely common. It's very normal. It sounds like maybe, who knows, maybe her mom dated older men. What do I know? But especially for ambitious people who value things like achievement, intelligence, authority, connection, et cetera.

I mean, who embodies those qualities? Older people, surprise, surprise, right? You want somebody who's mature. It's like saying, I want somebody who's mature that has a lot going for them, that's relatively stable. Yeah, okay, you want somebody who's 30, 40 plus years old. 10 years older than you, minimum. If that's what you value, of course you're attracted to those types of people.

It doesn't mean that it's wrong. It's not pathological. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. It's just part of your personality, and it's connecting with other parts of people's psychology. So knowing this about yourself is great. I recommend entering your relationships, no matter how minor, no matter how professional or non-professional they might be, enter your relationships with that in mind. For example, if you catch yourself giving older people's opinion more weight, notice when you

are participating in approval-seeking behavior, agreeing with them all the time, trying to be a people-pleaser. It can be hard to clock these things in the moment, but it is something that you, you can teach yourself to do and build a little awareness around. And I think it'll help you stay out of these types of situations that may be getting a little dicey in the future. And more importantly, or most importantly, it'll help you enjoy the parts of these relationships that are healthy and additive, the mentorship, the friendship, the connection without maybe some of the parts that are dysfunctional or problematic where you're getting a work boner.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I mean, you know. Yeah, totally. I think if she does all that, she can build this relationship with the appropriate boundaries and have a really great mentor and friend in the office. And if she feels comfortable, if you feel comfortable, I would recommend maybe talking to him about all this. I mean, he'll probably be relieved to hear you acknowledge it out loud, assuming he isn't like low key trying to date you and will probably be happy to be your colleague without all of this extra baggage and pressure. I mean, I would be professional and open with him about what you're thinking and feeling and invite him to do

the same. And I would get clear with yourself on what you actually want out of this relationship. Like, do you want to end it or do you want to have it but with the appropriate boundaries? It sounds to me like you want to stay with your boyfriend. It sounds like you and your boyfriend actually have a really good relationship if you could even bring this up with him and he was so understanding and cool about it. So it sounds like he's your boyfriend and this person is your colleague and that's very clear. So I would go into that conversation knowing that and see if you are both on the same page. And if you are, then this could all be resolved pretty easily.

Recommendation of the week, Spy Wars. I don't know where you can watch this. I checked this from BitTorrent, but it is from the history channel. it's corny, it's Damien Lewis from Homeland. Is that the name of that show? That's the one, yeah. So, great actor. First of all, I didn't even realize that guy had a British accent.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because in the homeland, he does it super straight American, yeah. Yeah, he's an American vet. So this is funny because it's like all this corny, British spy. It's one of those series where they do spy stories, but in between they have Damien Lewis narrating. And occasionally they'll cut to him and he'll be like wistfully looking at a window or like,

arranging strings on a board or making a phone call on a secret-looking satellite phone, and then he'll put the antenna down and be like, but that wasn't all that happened that night. And then they cut to the rest of the story. Because, of course, they're just telling a narrative that has no footage. But it's called Spy Wars. I really enjoyed its true stories of espionage. So a couple shows ago, I mentioned Robert Hansen and the FBI leak and all these crazy missions from Israel to get the Ethiopian Jews out of Ethiopia.

a really interesting historical true story. So that'll be linked in the show notes, Spy Wars. Hope you all enjoy that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com. Go back and check out the guest, Justin Ramsdale and Gary Kasparov, if you haven't yet, and if you want to know how I've got all these amazing guests and folks lined up to do this show, it's all about my network. You can go check out six-minute networking. It's a free course over there on the Thinkific platform at Jordan Harbin. slash course. Dig that well before you're thirsty people. I'm also on Instagram at Jordan Harbinger, Twitter at Jordan Harbinger. It's a great way to engage with me in the show.

Videos of our interviews are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. And this show is created in association with Podcast One. This episode is produced by Jen Harbinger, edited by Jay Sanderson, show notes for the episode by Robert Fogarty. Ads were fun because of Peter Oldring. Thank you, Gabriel Mizrahi. And this music was by Evan Viola. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. And yes, I'm a lawyer,

but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show, especially Gabe's advice. God knows where you got that stuff. I mean, I'm not a lawyer or a psychologist.

I'm just a friend who happens to find this stuff interesting. So I'm glad you called that out. Well, you're a screenwriter. So if anybody has any authoritative questions. It's definitely the guy who makes people up for a living.

Yeah, absolutely. Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please do share it with somebody who could use the advice that we gave here today. Lots more in store for 2020. I'm excited to bring it to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen.

And we'll see you next time. Most of the people, young people I deal with, envision themselves in kind of the top economic class, or at least aspire to it. Two basic rules. Get certified and get to a city. I know, of course, most people want to be in the 1%. You know what? Actually, I take it back. I think now most people want to be in the point 1%.

They just think that's what the 1% is. 100%. 100%. The myth of balance is a myth. And the other big myth is this notion that you should follow your passion. And the notion that you should follow your passion is dangerous. Because most passion sectors are over-invested. If you want to open a nightclub, go to work or vogue,

or play professional sports or music, just recognize. You better get a great deal of psychic income. from those things. Because the monetary income relative to your effort will be dramatically lower than other asset classes. Your job as a young person is not to follow your passion. It's to find out what you're good at and then invest the time, the grit, and the energy to become great at it. The accoutrements that follow being great at something, status, respect your colleagues, money, access to better health care, the ability to take care of your parents and your kids, you will become passionate about whatever it is that lets you do those things.

Happiness is love, full stop. So the depth and number of relationships across work, family and friends is the best practice around happiness. Again, this is one of our most popular episodes. Scott has a bunch of great advice, whether you're young or old and you want to live in rich and happy life, whether that means economics or not. And that's episode 204 with Scott Galloway, solving the algebra of happiness here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. Check it out. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast.

Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you, you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the

same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know, where, wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.