The Jordan Harbinger Show - 376: How to Fire Someone You Care About | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

Because of the economic downturn, you're forced to lay off someone who gave up a lot to accept the job on your recommendation. How do you fire someone you care about? We'll tackle this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/376 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Because of the economic downturn, you're forced to lay off someone who gave up a lot to accept the job on your recommendation. How do you fire someone you care about? How should you approach handshakes and face masks for an onsite job interview during the pandemic without seeming unfriendly, strange, or paranoid (or reckless or ignorant)? You want to make your voice heard, but how do you overcome the fear of being exposed, on display, and held to old opinions or snapshots of who you were at a certain period when it's a barrier to your growth? Now sober, you burned a lot of bridges when you weren't. While doing an inventory of your network, should you reach out and apologize to people you wronged, and if you didn't wrong them, how much of a connection do you need to just reach out and be personal? Your gullible brother got out of an MLM scam only to get wrapped up in a currency exchange "company" that operates in a similar manner. How can you help him see the error of his ways without risking his tendency to dig in deeper? As Benjamin Hardy might say: what's next for Future Jordan? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. And if you want to keep in touch with former co-host and JHS family Jason, find him on Twitter at @jpdef and Instagram at @JPD, and check out his other show: Grumpy Old Geeks. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you do. get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. I want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission here on the show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so that you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works, make sense of what's really happening. And if you're new to the show here on Fridays, we give advice

to you, we answer listener questions the rest of the week. We have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers and performers. And this week, we had my friend Kelly McGonagall discussing the upside of stress and how our body's stress response might not be something we should avoid, try to limit, de-stress, all that. She's going to sort of smash that paradigm. And we had one from the vault with my friend, Bob Sutton, he wrote a book called The No Asshole Rule, and it's about how to deal with people in the office who are not always super nice. And he is an absolute gem and gives us some great strategies for that. Now, we're not in offices anymore, but we're still working with A-Holes.

That's something that COVID can't fix for us. Make sure you've had a look and listen to everything we created for you here this week. Of course, our primary mission here on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we want to pass along our guests and our own experiences and insights to you. I just want to place one brick in the structure that makes up your life. That's what this podcast is really about. Remember, you can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. I got to say, Gabe, the show fans brought the heat this week. There's some conundrums.

There's some conundra in here, for real. Is it conundrums? Conundrums doesn't sound right. Even if conundra is the correct thing to say, I don't think we should say it. I had fun answering some of these. Me too, man. They were conundra, though. For real.

They were. What's the first thing out of the mailbag then? Hey there, Jordan and team. I'm the manager for a small business that has been badly affected by the pandemic. We have been successful to some degree in innovating and adapting to find new sources of revenue, but we haven't been able to maintain revenues high enough to keep the whole team intact. My boss has since instructed me to lay off a specific employee. She seemed to be the logical choice because she was new and we had to prioritize existing employees. While I didn't agree with this assessment, I have to comply. My boss would not accept any reason or explanation. Under normal circumstances, I would do my job and lay off the person gently while providing support on a personal basis, giving referrals and things like that.

But the challenge is that this particular employee is an expat and was only hired one month prior to the pandemic, and I had convinced her to resign from her previous well-paid position to join us to set up a new overseas satellite office. If she loses this job, she will not get severance pay as she is not yet past probation. Even worse, she will also lose her visa and be forced to return to her home country, which she may not be able to do due to travel restrictions. Seeking an extension of visa in this country isn't easy, and she may in fact become illegal. Now I feel guilty as I was the one who brought this person in.

Meanwhile, I have a team of 15 other people I need to take care of, and I also need to focus on the business so that we can retain them. The question I have is this. Does this person's situation grant her special consideration? If so, how do you think I should handle this with my boss? Thank you for all that you do, lamenting a layoff. So this one is brutal. I am really sorry for you and especially sorry for this person that's probably about to get laid off.

Man, I don't even know where to start. Gabe, what do you think in here? There's so many considerations with this one. Like, are you loyal to the company? Are you loyal to this person that you encouraged him to take such a huge risk? And they did based on what you said. And now they're getting tossed to the kick to the curve. Like, ugh.

I mean, I get why this person is feeling guilty. It makes sense. You feel sad. You feel guilty. you feel trapped, I bet. You sound like a really thoughtful person. Let me just say that. You sound like a thoughtful boss who looks out for their people. I'm sorry you're in this situation. I literally felt a little nauseated while I read that letter. This is one of those impossible situations that people in positions of authority are given. It's just a really crappy part of life, man. I'm so sorry.

I said, man, it could be ma'am. I don't know the gender. It's really crappy for whoever is in that situation. What's really tough is that, to your point, Jordan, there isn't really a clear answer. It's not like you know exactly what you need to do, but are dreading it. In this case, you have really strong reasons to either look out for this person or prioritize your other employees. So either way, there are costs, right? Is it fair to assume that because you're asking us how to handle this with your boss, there's still a chance you can convince them to let you keep this person? Otherwise, you wouldn't be writing it, right?

That makes sense to me, right? Otherwise, what's the point of writing it? Unless she just, or he, just wants to get permission for us to be like, not your fault, drop the hammer. Right, that's fair. So before we tell you what we think as best we can, do think that you need to ask yourself an important question. I think you need to ask yourself, are you looking out for this person purely because of her situation? Or are you also looking

out for her because she's an excellent employee and a good person? Now, I know her situation deserves empathy and care. I totally agree. But in a situation where you have to make this tough call, I think it's important to weigh the different variables that are at play here because it can be easy to let your guilt or your fear guide you. It's important to look at this person as an employee also separate from her situation as difficult as that is. So are there good reasons to keep her on the team that have nothing to do with her visa status? And also, tough question, number two, are you overlooking any shortcomings in her performance because of the situation that you're in? I'm not presupposing that she's a bad employee. I'm saying because the situation is so extreme,

it's easy to make the decision purely on those variables and not on whether this person has an important role on your team in the long term. I think you also, I agree with that. And I think you have to factor in your values. And I don't want to sound too sort of fluffy here, but the values you have to factor in are how much you and your company should take care of other people when they're in a tough spot like this. Because obviously the writer cares. Obviously you care. Right. But is it your company's job to care too?

And maybe the answer is no. But maybe also the answer is yes. You know, one of those places. It's a family. I've actually seen this on Reddit, Gabriel, when other people are venting about things. someone will say, oh, my boss, you know, we're a family, and someone's like, whoa, wait, your boss says that? That means they're probably going to abuse you.

Right. It's never like, we're a family. We never let anybody go and there's a problem. It's always like, we're a family. You have to come in on Sunday, even though you came in on Saturday. Right. We're a family as long as you do what I want you to do. And then we're a super tight family.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're super tight. Oh, COVID, though, we're going to let you go. I kind of want a new boat and I don't like your face right now. Bye. You do have to factor in those values. how much does a person's seniority matter in your view? Is another question to consider?

Maybe is this person important to your team in the long run, despite the fact that she's new? Because sometimes, Gabriel, this has happened to me before, too. You hire someone they're new and you go, wow, this person's a superstar. They're better than somebody who's been here for a year, three years. Yep. So if that's affirmative, then that's probably a good argument to make to your boss and also a good reason to not just blindly follow seniority.

That's what I wanted to understand more about this person. Like, what is their performance beyond their situation? I also think it's a really good point you're making about how good are your other employees, because that's what makes this tough. If you don't let this person go, you are going to have to let someone else go, right? So if you save this person, somebody else will go. Somebody else will also suffer in some way, maybe not in the same way that she will, but definitely to some degree.

Is that fair to them? Who should be the one? How much of your loyalty belongs to the people who already work for you versus the people you want on your team right now and need in the future? I mean, these are hard questions, but I think these are the ones you have to ask. So to answer your question, I would separate the quality of this employee from your circumstances. I would ask yourself how important your values are here. Ten year versus quality, how much you feel the need to protect this person, which people you believe you need on your team. And if you feel that you need to get your boss to save this person's job,

then carefully consider your reasons. I would develop a very clear, simple, rational pitch to him or her, explain your reasons, including the risks of her situation if it comes down to that, but know that you might still be overruled and that you might still have to let this person go and that it will suck and that it will not be your fault and that you really went about for this person as much as you could. And if you do end up letting her go, you have to do everything you can to help her. Like, is there some middle ground where you can convince your boss to give her a month or two to find another job and maybe extend the visa a little bit? that could make the difference between being completely ruined and being okay,

give her as much advanced notice as possible. And you also mentioned referrals. That'll help her out in a big way. If you feel comfortable, if you're able, work with her closely to find another job as soon as possible, you can write a glowing recommendation, you can pick up the phone, you can work your network as well. You can tell them this story, make it happen for her.

I don't know if you can help with the visa situation at all. The company can probably only continue to sponsor somebody for their period of employment, I really don't know. They probably can't go beyond that. But it's worth asking. I mean, I think the advanced heads up is probably one of the biggest things they could do to help her if they end up letting her go. It really is.

And look, I know that this sucks. It's horrible. It's part of life. I hate that, but it is true. And sadly, part of your job now is to be a part of this. And I know you wish this weren't the case. I certainly do as well. Whatever you do, you have to do it compassionately.

Because if you keep her and you let someone else go who's more senior, that's going to There's no way to get around something's going to hurt here. Something's got to give, especially if your boss can't afford to keep you all on. Help this person out to the absolute extent of your ability. And who knows, maybe you can find a solution that actually does help her in the long run. Get creative here. I do not envy your position right now at all. All right, Gabe, what's next? I have an on-site job interview next week, and I want to know how I should approach handshakes and face masks during the pandemic. Obviously, I don't want to seem unfriendly, strange, or paranoid, but I also don't want to seem reckless or ignorant. I've heard plenty of talk about a new normal where handshakes disappear, but does that apply yet? I'm planning on emailing the company contact this week to ask what their company policy on the matter is. I'm sure the millions of people that are in the middle of a job transition right now, as well as me, would love to hear your expert opinion. signed COVID or co-home.

Nice. Great name, Gabe. Anyway, yeah, you've got it. Ask. That is the key. But you have to be prepared for anything, though. In other words, bring a mask. Wear it the whole time. Don't walk in and then put it on when they ask you to. You have to err on the side of caution.

Bring wipes, bring sanitizer spray. Gels are gross. Those are really gross. I don't like the sanitizer gel. There's Pure L spray. It's much better. If you know what to expect going in, you can be as careful as you need to be.

again, make sure that you err on the side of caution, and then just make sure that first impression handshake that if the boss really wants it, you know, fine, sanitize the crap out of your hands at the earliest possible moment after as soon as they turn around. Remember, first impressions are made when somebody notices you,

not when you want to make them. So they're nonverbal. And if you need proof of this, next time you're walking in public, which, that could be in 2021, but next time you're walking in public, notice yourself making judgments about other people, tall, skinny, threatening, sexy, whatever it is, that's going through your head. You're always

judging people based on what they look like. So if you look professional, put together, cautious, and then someone says, oh, you're not one of those pansies that wears a mask, are you? First of all, do you really want to work at a place like that? That's just a guaranteed germ factory, especially at this point. But also, if you err on the side of caution, I don't think anybody's going to fault you for too long. And if you want to really stick your first impressions, definitely make sure you're doing six-minute networking. There's a doorway drill in there. which helps with your nonverbal communication, upright, positive, confident, et cetera, et cetera. It's a design for first impressions, especially in professional environments.

You're really going to, well, actually personal and professional environments, but you're going to get a lot out of that. So make sure you're in six-minute networking, do the doorway drill. For those of you not in it, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Some people said they were having trouble registering, by the way. We're going to fix that. We kind of got a beat on what that is. Also, regarding face masks, there are some interesting research coming out about how it affects the way that people see. us, it turns out that a lot of the facial cues we read, they're not just in the eyes, but they're

in the lower half of the face. And this doesn't really surprise me, but I think a lot of people who've been reading too many books about body language now think they can read people's eyes, which you just can't. No one can. It's just not a thing. The lower half of the face is extremely important. We can tell if someone's happy or sad, smiling or angry from the way their cheeks and their mouth move, not just around their eyes. Of course, this is precisely the area that's covered by face mask, which creates a big problem, especially in an interview setting. So I would play up your other facial and paralinguistic cues, smile with your eyes, use your hands a little bit more, speak a little louder than you usually would, which is good advice right now in general, and modulate your voice

to be overly friendly, not ridiculous, but a little bit overly friendly to compensate for the lack of facial cues, that way people can really get a read on you. And once you do sit down, you can ask if you can take off the mask to talk if it's appropriate. If you're sitting on the other side of the room, it should be fine. Gabe, what am I leaving out here? No, I think that's all good advice. I would say, like, every single person right now is dealing with this awkwardness. So it's not just you, which lets you off the hook, but you bring up an interesting point, which is like, how do you, how do you still make a good first impression when the entire world is awkward? And I would say, my advice is, look, call it out. Just make a joke about it as soon as you can. Like, be the person

who's aware that this period is super weird and just like that, you're not the super weird one. So if you walk in, you're like, hey there, like, you meet your boss, whatever the hiring manager comes out and you're like, not sure what we're doing now. Handshake, no handshake. You good with elbows. Here's an elbow, you know, nice to meet you.

Like, have a laugh about it as soon as you can. And then I think the rest of the thing will be way less awkward. Do you know what I mean? Like, even if you have to keep your distance, six feet or whatever, just be like, I'll follow your lead, man. Like, hey, if you want, you could, you go in the conference room. I'll stay in the kitchen.

We'll just yell at each other across the office. you know, like whatever it is, that's a very context-specific. I was assuming a lot about the layout of that office. But you know what I mean? Like, just sort of be in on the joke. And I think that will pretty much cut it in half, if not entirely. In the end, I think I'd also go out of my way to make it okay by cracking a little bit of a joke about it at the top. This might not work for your personality, so take it with a grain of salt. It's just a suggestion. But if you do make a little joke, not only are you going to neutralize the COVID awkwardness, you're going to be showing that you're chill, you're funny, you're relaxed, you're friendly,

all the stuff you'd probably want to be demonstrating in an interview under normal circumstances anyway. So good luck in the, good luck going in the office doing a job interview and onboarding in this era. It's kind of weird. I'm surprised you're even going into the office in the first place. Honestly, I'm surprised it's not a Zoom interview. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show, and it is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. And now back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger Show. All right, Gabe, what's next? Hi Jordan. I'm a big fan of your podcast and I'm inspired by how boldly you put yourself out there. I've started blogs in the past only to delete everything and return to my shell out of fear of being vulnerable or somehow having the content used against me.

The fear of being exposed on display and held to old opinions or snapshots of who I was at a certain period has been a barrier to my growth for some time now. Have you ever had such a fear of writing and speaking in public? If so, how did you overcome it? Do you have any tips for someone who might have more than a healthy dose of paranoia and perfectionism? Thanks for reading, cringing in advance. Gabe, why don't you go first? You're trying to say that I'm cringing, like I'm still cringing about all the stuff that I wrote back in the day? I mean, we kind of just talked about this, right? We kind of just talked about this recently.

Yeah, it's a theme for sure. Well, first of all, I think Jordan and I can both relate to exactly where you're describing. Putting yourself out there is hard enough. Worry about what people will think of you down the line. that's even harder. As a perfectionist myself, I know how paralyzing that is. Paranoia is also very common with writers. We're already insecure. We're already self-conscious. We have a good imagination. So what you end up usually imagining is that everyone is going to look at your stuff later and hate it. So let me just say that I can totally relate. And if it helps, let's just call out the fact that most writers have the

opposite problem, not enough people care. So if you ever do find yourself in a situation where you're being judged for your past work this intensely, I'm going to go out and say you're probably doing something right. But that said, here are a few pieces of wisdom. Jordan, please chime in because I know as a podcaster who's been added for some time, you've probably put out episodes that you cringe at now looking back. So first of all, I think as a creator, if you are not embarrassed by your old work, then you are not doing your job. I will say that again because it is so important. I have to remind myself of it all the time. As a creator, if you're not embarrassed by your old work, then you are not doing your job. One of the consequences of getting better is that your old stuff starts to suck.

This is how it should be. You have to be willing to embrace that and to be proud of that if you're going to be a writer or any type of creator. That's just part of the deal. Second thing I would recommend is getting feedback on your work along the way. If you get feedback from people you trust, then you'll probably avoid most of the unnecessary embarrassment that might come down to the the road. So if you have a couple of people you could run your pieces by, maybe they can tell you when you might be saying something that won't age well or that is missing some huge point that you can't see yet. At the very least, they will challenge you to develop your ideas even further, which will help you avoid the kind of stuff you might come to regret later. Getting feedback isn't failproof.

I'm not saying that you won't be embarrassed, maybe at some point, but it does go a long way. Finally, if you find yourself in a situation where you're cringing about something you've written, then you can always tell your own story. You can always write about the fact that you no longer agree with what you used to publish. You can always revise your earlier views. You can explain your past mistakes. You can build on previous work. This is an option available to you in virtue of the job. It is the job. It's not an excuse for the work. It's part of your work. So look around and you'll see people doing that constantly. By the way, stand-up comics right now, especially. How many of them are apologizing for dumb jokes or taking back insensitive stuff that they've said. And some of it is going

well and some of it's not going well. But the ones who really take ownership and say, I don't know what I was thinking, I used to find that funny, now I know better. I don't think that anymore. A lot of them are actually okay. People respect when they take ownership of stuff that they shouldn't have said or done. So you could argue that some people are doing this too much, but that's not my point. My point is that it's an option. Scientists, philosophers, they do this all the time. They constantly revise and build on what they did before. They use their mistakes to come to better arguments, right? So you can do the same. It's really hard to go wrong when you tell your own story. So if you ever mess up or you make a mistake or you don't like what you wrote, just say that. If you were wrong,

own it, you know, use it to become better. And if it isn't a mistake, then it's just part of the journey. And I think if you do all three of those things, you'll pretty much avoid the disaster situation you're imagining in your head. And my philosophy on this comes from language learning, namely the idea that we should actually make our mistakes out loud. You know, when you're learning a language, let's say you're learning German and you don't know if it's der, der, di, or a das, right? those are like the male, female, or neutral nouns. If you just go, it's like, they're a phone, or like, you just go, phone, like,

then whoever you're speaking with can't hear you make a mistake, so they can't correct you. And actually studies show that we often fill in the right gender in our head, and Germans often fill out the right gender in their head. They'll just hear what's supposed to go there rather than assuming you've made a mistake. But the problem is then you don't learn anything. So you get away with it.

perfectly well for years at a time. But if you make your mistake really loud and you say, Dairphone, whatever, obviously you'd use the word in German. And then someone's like, it's going to be DAS. And you're like, okay, now I can remember that from now on. You really need to make your mistakes out loud when you create too. Another example, when I started to go out and be more sort of social and I was hiding and being really shy, I wore that kangaroo suit. Many of you have heard this where I wear that Pikachu kind of kangaroo suit to try and force myself into going out in groups. It didn't have a helmet. I couldn't hide. People were coming up and talking to me and I went, okay, screw it. Now anything I do is just going to be highlighted and

circled and bolded because I'm the guy in the kangaroo suit. And so making mistakes out loud actually got me to learn a lot faster, whether it was a language or interpersonal skills. My point is, with experience and time, you realize that you're just like everyone else and the people who see you, they view you in a very positive way for showcasing this and not trying to airbrush your flaws. So people are going to look at my work from years ago, your work from years ago, and they're going to go, oh, okay, I wonder if he still thinks like this. I wonder if this is something he agrees with still. Look at this mistake they made in public talking about their old views and why they were mistaken. It's also great for people to be able to follow your growth

curve, see how you change and grow over time. I'm embarrassed. I shouldn't say heavily embarrassed. I cringe with respect to shows that are four to five years old and, of course, older, or anything older than that. As time goes by, things get more and more cringe until it's so long ago that I feel like I'd be kind of insane to hold that against myself. It's like looking at a picture of yourself in middle school and you've got like a wild haircut

or you look weird or fat or something like that and you don't like yourself in the picture. You don't go, oh, I'm a terrible person. You're just like, oh, that's funny. I was awkward back then and I wouldn't look that way now. I think everybody looks that way to old photos. Your work is no different. There are old shows where I used to use phrases like, I'm going to go, I'm going to go hit the bar and pick up chicks.

I used to say things like that on the show. I was 27. It was 2007. It sounds cringe. It sounds unwoke. But you can't compare yourself a decade ago to who you are now and come away clean. It's just not going to happen. If you can compare yourself 10 years ago and then now and go, I haven't changed a bit.

Your life is bad. Okay? You have failed to develop. Maybe your life's not bad. But you have failed to grow. And if you look at yourself 10 years ago and you look at yourself right now and you think things were so much better then, well, your life's taking quite a turn. Maybe you should examine that, right? I certainly am not going to go, ah, yes, broke, sleeping in until 11 a.m. and living with seven dudes in a one-bedroom New York apartment.

Those are the days. I really had it all figured out back then. So true. I hope that gives you a little perspective. I can so relate to your conundra, the conundra that you're raising. in your letter. That's totally going to be a new word for when we have a week full of great letters from listeners. I think so. But I totally feel you and don't let it stop you. Just know that it's part of the deal. It's not always comfortable, but you'll be fine.

All right, Gabe, what's next? Hey, Jordan and crew. I've been working my way through six-minute networking. Thanks so much for making it available for free. It is a great course, and I'm getting incredible value from it. I've revived a ton of old connections and I'm already seeing amazing results. That's dope. While many of

my close contacts are super happy to hear from me, I have more than a handful of names that I think may be less enthusiastic. I used to be a touring musician, and during that time, I drank very heavily and was, well, let's just say, not a great person, and I burned a lot of bridges. I never did anything deliberately to harm anyone, but I was kind of a hot mess for a while, and I think I may have offended many of my acquaintances from this time period. I've since sobered up, getting close to two years now, and I've cleaned up my act substantially. I'm not perfect, but I'm doing my best to be a better person and be of service to others. So I have two questions for you. One, should I reach out and try to

apologize to people that I've wronged or who perceive that I wrong them? And two, if I didn't wrong them, how much of a connection do I actually need to reach out and be personal? I would love to know how you recommend handling these sorts of contacts. I was considering deleting them, but I don't want to waste the potential good that may still be in those lost connections. Warm regards, networking right, with those I've wronged. I personally think this is a great. great opportunity to get some stuff off your chest, and you'll be surprised how many people are glad to hear from you. I went through this several years ago. I was like, I'm just going to apologize to everybody that I think I wronged that I can get a hold of. And I went on Facebook, and I reached

out to people seriously in like middle school. And I was like, hey, sorry, I made fun of your list, but I just thought you were kind of a cute girl and I don't know, I'm an idiot. How are you? And they were like, oh, I don't remember that at all. I remember coloring and playing dodgeball and you were really good at four square. You know, I'm married with three kids. And I'm like, oh, okay. And it felt good because yes, maybe once every five years I felt a little bit bad about making fun of Joanne Golden, right? But then why feel that way at all ever when you can reach out and catch up with somebody and maybe they don't even care? Or they say, ah, thanks, you know, you were kind of a dick back then. Anyway, it's been 20 years. How are you? You know, it's going to feel

cathartic. It also, by the way, happens to be one of the steps in 12-step programs, you know, like Alcoholics Anonymous, you call people or you see them and you apologize for how you've affected their lives. It's crucial and it can really alter your psychology. It can really clear out some guilt and emotional baggage. The key here is, I would treat this in a way that you're closing the loop versus trying to network. You know, you don't even have to apologize profusely. Just close the loop on all these sort of old interactions. Don't try to network, quote unquote. I think people like that might just read it, okay, he's going to come over or call me and apologize for something and then he's and now he wants me to join his stupid MLM, right?

Like, they're going to suspect that you want something. So just make damn sure that all you want to do is close the loop. They're going to think, oh, he needs a job now or whatever. You don't want to be, that's going to make your impression 10 times worse. It's going to compound everything from the past and then just add a layer of garbage on top of it. So just focus on closing the loop. Gabe, what do you think?

Yeah, I think those wires are getting crossed a little bit. So my advice is exactly, yeah, Treat it has an opportunity to write those wrongs rather than as an opportunity to network. If a relationship comes out of it, great. But if you mix your motivations, I don't know, I think you might come across as disingenuous. So just get clear on that in your head. Making amends, that's its own reward. What's your take, Jordan, on the second question, how much of a prior connection does this guy need to reach out and be personal? I would say you don't really need to be strongly connected. These are your weak and dormant network ties. We talk about that in six-minute networking. The weak and dormant ties. There are people that it's like, hey, this is my

old boss that I only worked with a few times, but I was really impressed by. Or, this is my college guidance counselor, career counselor. He was really, really cool. I haven't talked to him in a decade. You don't need to be strongly connected. Weak and dormant ties, these are some of the first couple exercises in six-minute networking. You can find at six-minute networking.com or Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where that lives anywhere on the Jordan Harbinger website. These people do not have to be old friends. They don't have to be old roomies. They really can be any. and this will compound your connection in a positive way. And if somebody goes, ugh, you were a terrible person back then and I never want to talk to you again, it's

kind of on them. If somebody reaches out to me from 10 years ago, unless it's somebody that really did something horrible over a sustained period of time that shows me their true and possibly unchangeable nature as a human and isn't just totally, totally remorseful, there's very few people I can think of where I'd be like, I don't even want to talk to them again. And it sounds to me, Gabe, like, this is a guy who may be, like, got drunk and puked in someone's truck and is like, oh my God, I can never talk to her again, when really the person's probably like, yeah, remember that. Not your finest moment, but, you know, you were a good person otherwise. And I think that's more likely what he's going to find. Yeah, and even if it's

worse, even if you, like, peed in her shoes or something, I don't know what you did or yelled, I said something really cruel. I don't know. But, like, I think if you're genuine in your remorse and you really want to apologize without any ulterior motive, I think in most cases, you're just, is it's going to go well. If a relationship develops after that and this becomes a connection, so to speak, for you, great. But like, don't layer that on to the first reach out. If you layer that on, it's just going to sound gross in some way or vaguely suspicious. Just separate those two things, and I think you'll be just fine. This is the Jordan Harbinger show. And it is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. After the show, we've got a preview trailer of our interview with

poker star Annie Duke on how we can learn to make better decisions by thinking in bets instead of trying so hard to be certain all the time. So stay tuned for that after the close of the show. Thank you for listening and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us going. To learn more and to get links to all the great discounts you just heard so that you can check out those amazing sponsors for yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. And now for the conclusion, of Feedback Friday. All right, last but not least. Hey there, Jordan and team. I'm a long-time listener going all the way back to the old show and gladly transitioned with y'all when things went sour.

I want to first say, thank you for opening my eyes up in a number of ways with your fascinating interviews and deep dives. My brother has been heavily involved in Amway, a health and beauty multi-level marketing company for the past three years. He has poured who knows how much money into this company and had a difficult time grasping the difference between profit and getting a discount on the product he was required to purchase. They do that on purpose, by the way.

You know, it's funny, earlier in the day, I almost said, oh, yeah, you know, this blah, blah, blah, wants you to join your stupid Amway thing. I was literally going to use that instead of MLM. They do that on purpose. They make you think that the quote-unquote discount you're getting on the inventory, which you are, by the way,

forced to purchase to keep your status in an MLM. They make you feel like you're getting a discount. It's not that your brother's dumb. he's literally being deceived. But anyway, I could go off on that train for a while. Gabe, continue. He never had anyone underneath him and is, in general, not the ideal person

for the 1% who actually succeeds in essentially screwing people over. Let me stop you right there once again. It's far less than 1% who succeed in a multi-level marketing. We're talking about breaking even is less than 1%. Success in a multi-level marketing?

It's well under 0.1%. Anyway, continue. He finally opened his eyes and left the company now that all of his mentors have moved on to the next shiny get-rich-quick scheme. From what I'm hearing, he's now focusing on a currency exchange company, which also requires him to have two people under him, or he has to dish out almost $200 a month. This seems ridiculous. My question is, what are your thoughts? This is the first time I'm hearing about a currency exchange that seems to function like an MLM, and I know I'll have a hard time discussing this, since he's hot-tempered and thinks that he knows more than anyone else about everything. That's going to be a hard conversation.

Yeah, it is. He still lives at home with our mom. He's six years older than me at 32. And it makes me sad that he continues to make poor financial decisions instead of focusing on saving. Do you have any advice or knowledge on currency exchange companies like this? How should I handle this? Thanks in advance.

Taking the L out of MLM. Wow. Okay. Well, first of all, make sure you listen to the episode with CoffeeZilla. We discuss one particular type of scale. called the fake guru scam, which is almost like a meta scam. And we touch on a lot of these points in your question. So you may want to listen again with your brother as well, though he's not going to want to hear it. To your question, it's not about refuting the logic of any particular

scam. So Gabe, something here I want to make a note of. They asked if we had any advice or knowledge on currency exchange companies. That's the wrong question to be asking. It's not about any particular scam. It's about the mindset of scam victims and how scam. Exploits, Victims' Weaknesses. So off the top of my head here, and again, there's a whole show about this with Coffeezilla earlier in the week. I'm going to do a whole show about multi-level marketing scams. I'll do a show about any kind of scam I can find, for that matter.

But off the top of my head, scammers typically look for people who are, and tell me if this is any of your brother's qualities here, insecure or vain, and of course people who are vain are also insecure. It sounds to me like your brother is a blowhard. You said he knows more than everyone about everything. That's not usually a good sign in somebody who's also then living with your mom at age 38. That's typically, that's kind of loser behavior. Again, no judgment, but with everything you're telling me here, it's all starting to come together. Scammers are also looking for people who are desperate, like, you know, a 38-year-old that still lives with mom and has no finances and nothing to look forward to. They also look for people who are looking for shortcuts. You

Usually because people don't have a lot of self-confidence. So shortcuts aren't just lazy people. Some of that is lazy people. Some of it is people who are inexperienced. And I think that's the vast majority of people who are looking for shortcuts. People lack experience. They don't understand how real businesses are built and or they lack self-confidence. Because think about that.

Well, vanity. It's really easy to exploit, right? You can show people what they lack by shoving it right in their face online, especially on YouTube. This is why you see guys standing in front of Lamborghinis. They're holding cash on a boat. It's easier to say, look what I have and you don't, if it's visual and it's visceral.

Desperation is also exploited by the same practice because you see signs of overt wealth, and that seems unimaginable for somebody who can barely make ends meet. So it's intoxicating. It's tempting to believe in it because people want to believe in it. A lot of the people like look at a stay-at-home mom that's doing an MLM,

she's not thinking, yeah, I'm going to be on a boat throwing money at girls and bikinis after this. They're like, I don't need that kind of money. I'm not going to do anything with that kind of money. I just want to pay for my kids diapers and I want to pay the rent and I want to not worry about my cell phone bill. So it's very insidious in that respect. So what you're saying is that it actually doesn't matter the details of the MLM that this guy might be involved in.

Like focusing on whether there are any merits to it whatsoever is irrelevant. As long as it's an MLM, then it's more about her brother and why he's. falling for this, his or her brother? Correct. And also, it's currency exchange scam. Who cares about that? The fact is it's a get-rich-quick scheme, period. The details of how we shouldn't be looking to go, oh, well, look, see, this thing doesn't work with Forex, and this thing doesn't work with currency exchange. It doesn't matter. Your brother's on to every get-rich-quick scheme. He doesn't even know the details. I guarantee you he doesn't know how this scheme works. If he did, he would know that it

doesn't work, and he's not going to make money doing it. Questions like this are why I'm on a crusade to expose these types of companies and teach you guys how to avoid them. They are predatory, they're insidious, they come in, they encourage you to damage the relationships you have with your own family and your own friends so that they can be exploited too. MLM recruiting is toxic. Don't even get me started. It's a whole other show. As for your brother, the truth is, you can really only send him coffee zilla videos or podcast episodes and see if he's willing to self-educate. And the problem is that he is likely not willing, because if he were willing to, self-educate. He would have done so when getting burned by a previous scam. You said he's doing

one after another. In my opinion, people who get into these types of scams time and time and time again, they're unwilling to learn because they're actually attached to the hope and the promise of a win at some point. They prefer to live in a fantasy of success because their current reality is so unappealing that they actually crave the escape. And of course, they could escape with real success as well, but that would require a level of self-confidence to build a business, and most serial scam victims lack that self-confidence. And I know I'm going on and on here, but last, just I'll end with this. I know what it feels like to not believe in a product that you have to sell. So it sucks for guys like these scammers, people getting duped by scams as well,

like your brother, because that product is themselves, right? You have to sell a problem. that you don't believe in. So of course you're looking for shortcuts. The problem is you don't believe in yourself. You are the product. So of course you're not going to try and build a real business. You don't have the confidence. You have to look for the tricks. And that's what these scammers are preying upon. They know you have to look for the tricks. They know you're looking for the tricks and they sell you the tricks and the tricks don't exist. You are the product. You are being sold. You're not selling anything to anyone else. So given all that, Jordan, Do you think that this person can convince their brother to stop doing it?

No, and the reason is because it's a self-confidence problem. It's not a let's pick apart these schemes problem. You can pick apart the scheme. And somebody who's intelligent might even realize that they're being duped. And they might even, because I get letters like this all the time. Like, hey, I used to get taken by scams and MLM things. And I started listening to the Jordan Harbinger show and I heard XYZ episode. And that made me peel back the curtain.

And now I understand what's going on. but those people are also building confidence and or they're falling into something else because they lack confidence. So you're always going to fall into something if you lack self-confidence. You're always going to get victimized by something, even if it's yourself. So you really have to attack the confidence problems. Yes, you can show him coffee zilla. Yes, you can have him listen to the show here. And maybe he'll go, man, I know this stuff's not going to work. But remember what I said before. They're addicted to the hope and the promise of a win at some point. So until you fix that, they're not going to stop looking for that win and they're not

going to stop looking for shortcuts to that win. Gabe, I know we actually had one more. I said last but not least before, but I was lying. Yeah, Jordan, we have one more. Here it goes. You seem to progress through and master what you put your mind to and I wonder how you get to that top spot in your craft and not get bored. You've been interviewing consistently what feels like 15 plus years now. 14 years. I'm curious to know if there's a what's next for future Jordan. That's a rest. from the Benjamin Hardy episode 365. Ah, yes, good reference. Signed consistently curious.

I think it's funny that consistently curious as I'm at the top of the craft. Like, that's great, awesome. I really appreciate it. Huge compliment. If anything, as cliche as it sounds, I know more now about where I need to improve than ever before.

So do I think that compared to journalists that you see on television or here on the radio that I'm pretty good at interviewing? Yes, it's hard. for me to pat myself on the back ever, but I will say, yes, I watch and consume a lot of interviews, and I think that I've worked really hard to get to the top bar of people, the top band of interviewers, but if anything, it makes me, it shines a light on all these cracks in my

skill set. So as I grew in the podcasting space, I realized that podcasting is not one skill, but it's a set of skills. So if you'd asked me, I don't know, 12 years ago, how I am at podcasting. I would probably speak in this sort of like monolithic skill that is podcasting, but it's not. It's a set of skills. And as you get good at podcasting, quote unquote, you get good at a subset of skills. So as we grow in any area, the more we can break that area down into its component areas, the better off we're going to be. So for example, podcasting includes, among other things, hosting a show, marketing a show, the technical aspects of running a show, saving the files, recording the audio, blah, blah, blah. For me, I've chosen primarily

to focus on interviewing. Obviously, I know stuff about marketing a show. I know a lot about the technical aspects of running a show, but I've chosen to focus on interviewing because I enjoy that the best. That's also just one element of hosting a show, which is a subset of podcasting. So even interviewing, that's got several different component areas. For example, cadence of speech, humor, prep and research, listening versus talking, asking questions and formulating them, controlling a guest that might be a little out of control, controlling the flow of a conversation. That's just off the top of my head. There's probably other areas that I haven't even thought of. So the more experience I gain in a given area, the more I see areas to improve because those areas were invisible before,

and they were invisible before I had enough experience to expose them. It's like shining a light, again, on the cracks in my skill set. It's important to keep this in mind, because as you gain expertise in most areas, you'll find as areas that you're lacking or could stand to focus on more start to appear, you're really going to start to see the gap between your own experiencing capability and then what you think you need to work on. Thus, it can actually be really easy to get discouraged because it looks like you're moving backwards on the capability timeline as you expose these new areas that you don't know. Does that make sense, Gabriel? Dude, you just hit the nail on the head. That is such a real feeling as you get better. It's like you feel worse. Yeah, you feel worse. You feel worse.

Like, imagine when you started writing in high school, like, really writing, you're like, I'm good at this. I got a gold star from my teacher. And then you write something else, and they're harder on you. And you're like, okay, I got a B plus. And then you start to realize that you read other people's writing and you go, oh my God, I am not anywhere near this. And so as you start to open up your capability versus somebody that you admire, you just

start to go, like, I suck. And then you work your way up to where those people are that you admire. You put your writing next to theirs and you go, I'm pretty damn. I'm good at this, but I still don't know all of this other stuff. And then I bet if you have a conversation with that author that you admire, they'd be like, are you kidding me? All I see is what I'm lacking. It's hard for me to turn anything in.

Aren't there writers famous ones that have like kept most of their writing unpublished because they thought it sucked? And of course, now it's like literary gold. I feel like I hear that all the time. I think what you're describing, though, is such a, it's like a universal irony of getting better at any craft, any skill. It's one of the worst parts and also one of the most inspiring parts about it is that it's humbling in the most literal sense of the term when you start to understand that for sure. I think that was really well put. You have all these artists and of course like painters and things like that and you hear about their masterpieces, right?

Those are the things that they worked on for months or years finished and they probably thought there's a lot of things they could have improved but it's like the most famous Monet, right? The most famous Picasso. So that doesn't even include all the stuff that's in their workshop that will never see the light of day that you find 20 years after they die in a drawer. Yeah, or all the mistakes they made on the way to getting there or all the work they created after that, that backslit or didn't live up to it. Or it's really, yeah, you only see like a very thin layer of that kind of work. So it's hard. Yeah, that's interesting for sure. I'm doing a show about art theft and sneak preview. And one of the things that was interesting and one of the ways they find counterfeits is on real art.

And you probably already know this, but there's like, they'll do some sort of scan of the art, and they'll see like an old painting underneath it and then an old sketch underneath that and then another old sketch. I believe the word is pentamento. Isn't that what it's called? Should we look it up? I just want to make it. Sure.

A visible trace of earlier painting beneath a layer or layers of paint on a canvas, yeah. Well, pentamento it is. That is a word I've literally never heard in my life, but totally makes sense. But you're saying that that's the sign that it's a real piece of work. Well, that's the sign it's a real piece of work. of art, yeah. And so what's interesting for me is obviously, look, they could have just used that canvas to practice on, but more likely, and what I think they've found is that they tried to start the painting and they went, nah, and they started over. So take this into your own life. Everybody

you think is at the top of their game probably sees a lot of the areas where they're lacking. What's next for me, since you asked, is simply honing each of these new component areas as they come. For example, I have a voice coach daily to improve stamina and energy in my voice. I'm working on adding more opinion onto the show. I think I did all right today. Feedback Friday, I'm not lacking opinions. The interview is where I can do a little bit more. I want to insert more of my own thoughts and personality into the interviews, but not too

much. You got a balance. You don't want a pentimento interview. It's not going to be fun for anyone. That's what's on my schedule other than growing the show aggressively over the next few years and we can get into marketing some other time. People probably don't care. but I do work on every little skill set.

I'm not anywhere near where I want to be. I see, if anything, areas for improvement. And I think that's a good sign. I think anybody who goes, I'm the best at this and just kicks back is lying to themselves and is obviously going to stop growing and get passed by somebody who's hungry like me.

So hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Go back. Check out the guests, Kelly McGonagel, and Bob Sutton. Kelly McGonagle was stressed Bob Sutton with the no-a-hole rule. If you haven't checked that out yet, go over there. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great

people and manage my relationships, I'm using systems and tiny habits in the six-minute networking course. That's on the think-ific platform. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Dig your well before you get thirsty. Once you need relationships, you're too late. These drills take a few minutes a day. That's why it's called six-minute networking. Dang it. I wish I knew this stuff 20, 30 years ago. It has been crucial, jordanharbinger.com slash course, and I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Jordan Harbinger. You can add me on LinkedIn. Great way to engage with the show. Videos of our interviews are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. This show is created in association with podcast one.

Thank you, Gabriel Mizrahi, for your sage advice and question curation today. This episode was produced by Jen Harbinger, edited by Jay Sanderson, show notes for the episode by Robert Fogart, video editing by Ian Baird. Additional voiceover by Peter Oldrowing. Music by Evan Viola. Got a lot of people working here now. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own.

I'm not a psychologist nor a therapist. I have no clinical authority. I can't give you specific treatment recommendations. I can only share what I've learned on my own and with my team, and I'm a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. Lots more in store for 2020. Very excited to bring it to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. As promised, here's a preview trailer of our interview with Annie Duke. The quality of your life is determined by the sum of two things, the quality of your decisions and less. When something bad happens to us, we act as a skill wasn't involved at all.

We just sort of pawned off to the luck elements. But when good things happen, we sort of ignore the luck element and we say that it was because of our great skill. A self-driving Uber just hit and killed a pedestrian. But what I thought was really interesting was that the reaction was to suspend the testing and just to take the cars off the road, not just the Uber cars, but other self-driving vehicles. And what I didn't see were any comparisons to the car. How self-driving vehicles did per thousand miles travel versus the technology that we already have on the road, which is cars that are driven by humans.

We know that 6,000 pedestrians die per year by regular driven cars. Let's say that you're on the side of the road and you've got a flat tire. And, of course, what everybody's thinking in that moment is I have the worst life ever. Like, why do these things always happen to me? I'm so unlucky. I'm so miserable. What's really interesting to me about it is like you could have gotten a promotion, like the biggest promotion of your life three days before. And you're not standing on the side of the road going, my life's great because I just got the biggest promotion I could ever imagine.

So imagine that you had this flat tire a year ago. And now I'm asking you today, a year later, how much do you think that that flat tire would have affected your overall happiness over the year? For more with any Duke, including some common mistakes we make when evaluating decisions, check out episode 40 here on the Jordan Harbinger show. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast? If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you stop mid-dishwashing and go, wait, what that actually happened? You got to subscribe to, what was that like?

It's real people telling the most surreal moments of their lives, and they're not just giving you the highlights, they're walking you through it from the inside as the person who actually lived it, which means you're basically getting a front-row seat to the chaos. One episode is about Scott getting locked up in a foreign jail for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, Scott. Another is Sue's parachute failing. Wow, I'm surprised she was around to tell that story. And then there's Michael who was stabbed on a bus, which makes your commute instantly feel a little bit more relaxing.

Do what you think? So if you want to hear some wild and inspiring firsthand stories, I invite you to check out what was that like. Every story is verified. Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. or whatever app you're using right now. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think. the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something

you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.