The Jordan Harbinger Show - 381: Neal Brennan | Comedy's Triple Threat

Episode Date: July 23, 2020

Neal Brennan (@nealbrennan) is a comedy writer/producer/director, co-creator of Chappelle's Show, host of the How Neal Feel podcast, and is featured in his own live standup solo show 3 Mics at Netflix. What We Discuss with Neal Brennan: How Neal's 3 Mics show came about, and the idea behind its three parts: one-liners, emotional stuff, and stand up. The comedy-writing process and how it mirrors real life. A mindset to get a more realistic handle on the potential outcome of a given project or situation. Tips on getting happy from a guy who's tried everything -- and why achievement can't be a substitute for happiness. When networking, remember Neal's sage words: "No one's going to help you in a way that's not beneficial to them." And so much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/381 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger show. You have to think pessimistically. The reason things worked is because further upstream, I and Dave were worried about whether it was going to work or not, and we corrected it or we made it good. There was a sketch we did, and I was like, we don't have an ending. And he was getting mad at me. I'm like, dude, you can get mad at me all you want.

We don't have an ending. Then we figured it out. You know, as much as I was a pain in his ass, I was correct. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills are the world's sharpest minds and most fascinating people. In turn, their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and makes sense of what's really happening, even inside your own brain.

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at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Most of the guests you're hearing on the show, they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Today, we're talking with comedian Neil Brennan. He's a comedy writer and co-creator of the Chappelle Show. We're going in on the comedy writing process and how it mirrors real life. Also, some tips on getting happy from a guy who's tried everything and why achievement can't be a substitute for happiness. Now, enjoy this episode with Neil Brennan. My friend recommended three mics on Netflix, and he's like, have you heard of this Neil Brennan guy?

Of course, I don't know anybody's names that I'm not familiar with. And so I turn it on, and I'm like, all right, and the first thing I see is you're holding these note cards on the mic? This motherfriker, yeah. That my first thought was, what the hell? You've got to have this memorized already. What's the problem? So what was that all about it?

Oh, why did I do notes? Because if I didn't do notes on that mic, it wouldn't have been different enough from the other mic. Oh, I see. So it has to be like... I just needed to differentiate it. Like a different energy type deal? Gotcha.

Okay, cool. Because I felt like, where is this like weird crutch coming from? It's like when someone gives a keynote but they have their notes on their phone, you're like, what are you doing? I've seen you do this 100 times. And most comedy really is the same a lot.

I mean, the delivery is pretty similar, except for the person's personality is different. Like you got your Gabriel Iglesias or whatever type guys, but this is a lot different. The three mics format is different. Can you tell us a little bit about like what that is? It's basically, so there's three mics on stage, like spaced out, equidistant from each other. So I just alternate mics basically three times.

One's for one liners. One of, I just do like three or four one liners. One is for stand-up, like conventional stand-up. And then one mic is for emotional stories. And then I just kind of go, I do 10 minutes to stand-up or 12 minutes to stand-up. Then I do eight minutes of stories. And I do two minutes of one-liners. And then I just repeat.

Why the break in format from just like, all right, I have funny stuff, I'm going to go up and deliver it? There's so many hours now. There's so many stand-up hours. Like, it's really, really difficult to stand out. And the people that do stand out usually stand out because they have their own TV show. Or they did a roast. They did something that was like sort of got them a lot of attention. Then people go, hey, you just stand-up, I'll watch it.

So I knew I didn't have a TV show. And there was stuff I wanted to talk about that I knew people found interesting. and I wanted to talk about it on stage. And I always had that idea, so I figured it out. How do you know someone's going to find that stuff? Or how do you even hypothesize someone's going to find that stuff interesting? Because I've talked about it on podcasts, and everyone says that's really interesting. Oh, that's the good stuff.

Yeah, well, that's not the good stuff. Comedians have sort of led the movement of being revealing off stage, so to speak, on podcast mostly. And I would watch my friends, like, do stuff. And if they ever got upset or choked up, I was always like, that's so much more interesting, to me than just another person doing stand-up giving like a glib well-thought-out recital of their material that they've rehearsed yeah yeah like it's there look stand-up is the best like it's better than any movie to me it's better than TV show it's the best but there's times where it's like a i don't want to watch you for an hour sort of one note be great stand-ups rare so i just wanted to do a different thing

yeah and done when i saw it i thought like why do people recommend this one-liners with the note cards Like, who is this guy? And then I was like, I don't care what TV show he wrote that I liked before. Like, this doesn't make sense. What did this guy contribute? By the way, the one-liners took 40 seconds. So all this happened in 40 seconds, you had this deep of a spin-out. You know, I-lock this guy.

I watched it like three times. And yeah, I probably did because when somebody recommends something, I'm like, am I going to sit down and watch this for an hour? And, you know, I thought your schick maybe was, I'm going to pretend I'm really putsy in front of the mic and that I don't have good delivery or something. And I was like, oh, wait, actually, these are funny. And then you went into some deeper stuff, and I thought, okay, oh, that part wasn't supposed to be totally funny. I see what you're doing here.

Because I didn't read the premise of three mics before I watched it. I just turned on, I just thought, I did that for the same reason somebody calls it fluffy, right? Like, whatever. There's going to be a three mics joke at the end. Yeah, exactly. So you're talking about growing up in Philadelphia, Irish Catholic, as my friend Caleb Bacon says your family was a little dysfunctional, so dysfunctional that produced two stand-up comics, not just one. Yeah, and that's really saying something. Highly unusual situation.

Yeah. Were you funny when you were younger? Like when you were a kid? I was always pretty funny. I was like, you know, cute. I was the youngest. So it was like I was sort of precocious and I was funny. Yeah.

Was there a time where you realized like, I can do this standard thing, this funny thing? Like, I got this. I should do this. There was no like moment per se. My brother was a comedian when I was in high school. I was like, oh, okay. Like so I knew I got to spend time when I was in high school with like David Mattel and Ray Romano and guys like that.

So that were friends with my brother. It was before they were famous, but I knew, like, I got to see them to do stand-up. They were great. I got to hang out a comedy club, so I just sort of wanted to do it, and then I was funny around my friends. Did you ever think, like, I'm funnier than my brother. I should probably get into this. No, I never, no.

Truly will not play that game. I know that there's just as many people saying to him, you're funny than Neil, so it's like, I'm just not even... It's always a matter of taste, yeah. It doesn't do any good. There's nothing there. I'm not trying to bait you and dissing your brother either. I just figured like some comics, they go, well, you know, I saw other people doing it

and I just thought that timing thing, like I can do that, I can mimic that, or I get the same reaction among my friends or among strangers, which is more important, obviously, than your friends. So he got you a job working the door at a club, and was it Boston? Yeah, it was in New York, but it was called the Boston Comedy Club. Okay, that's a little confusing. Yeah, because they wanted to make sure no one went. So I was going to NYU for film school and working the door at the comedy club, And then eventually I was like, I liked the comedy club more than I like film school.

I'm more nocturnal. I figured, like, let me just work there and did. And it was, you know, like I said, Patel, Romano, John Stewart, Chappelle. These were like kindred spirits way more than film students. Actually, how did you start and keep those relationships? I mean, you see the guys there all the time, but there's a lot of people that work in comedy clubs that don't throw jokes at the comics, that don't try to create relationships, that don't end up being or staying friends with these guys. Oh, yeah.

That's a good question. I certainly was like I felt an affinity for them. I would strike up conversations with them. I would, he just said I would pitch them jokes. I didn't pitch a ton of people jokes, but Jay Moore, like we were roommates. He did a joke of mine. Chappelle did a joke. I was useful in a way, like to them.

Me and Chappelle were like same age. Like we got along really well. So I didn't necessarily see it as networking per se. I guess it was networking, but I didn't think of it that way. Sure. I think most people who are good at networking and relationship development don't think of it as networking because the people that think of it as networking are... It's too obvious.

They're like, hey, buddy. Hey, can I give you a card? Yeah. And it's like, no. Let me know when you need a financial manager. Yeah. I have people often saying like, hey, I'm an amateur comedian. Can I send you a link from my, sent me a link?

Can you watch my five minutes? And I was like, no, thank you. People see me or somebody doing better. than them in showbiz are doing well as an opportunity. And it's like once you feel like an opportunity, you're going to shut off. That's an interesting point that I hadn't really thought of. People send me their stuff all the time.

Like, hey, can you read my book? And I'm like, one, no. And two, even if I did, I don't know what useful input I'm going to have because I do my thing totally different than you should do yours. Or even like, listen to an episode of my podcast. It's only half an hour long. Or even if it's only like 10 minutes long. My feedback would be like, yeah, talk closer to the mic.

or I don't know. If you're good, it'll get to me. If you're good at something, somebody will tell me, like, did you see this thing or whatever? Like, you don't want to jump the gun. People send me scripts, whatever. I have scripts that are written by professionals that they want me to do that I don't read.

Right. That I just don't have time or interest. So if someone says, I'm an amateur, read this. It's like, dude, this is your one opportunity. You want to waste it on this? Like, you sure you're not going to get it? get any better. Like, because guess what? If I don't like this, I'm not reading anything else you ever send me. For your entire life. For the rest of your life until you die. No, but you know what I

mean? Like, I do know you need to be smart about people that make online videos. It's like, hey, you don't have to put them all on YouTube. Make five of them. Show them to your friends and the best one put on YouTube. Oh, good point. Whereas everyone's like, I go to my page and it's like, dude, if I watch one and it stinks, I'm not going to keep watching. It's over. Yeah. I'm saying that as like a guy that people want to see as an opportunity, but that's also the audience's take. Like you were mad at the one-liners. There's three one-liners. I wasn't even mad. I just thought if the remote were closer, I would be like, I'm going to lower the volume, but not turn it. Actually, if my friend hadn't recommended it, I probably would never have turned it on. I didn't know who you were.

And so I do watch some comedy, but I like to watch it live. I don't care about Netflix unless it's like, I'll go and look at Roy Wood Jr. because he's a friend of mine. I'm like, hey, you got a new thing. I'm to support you and I'll watch it. And even if it's not funny, I'll probably still tell you I watched it and I really enjoyed it, which it was funny. Gabriel, my buddy goes, look, it's really funny and there's stuff in there that you'll like. And I was like, I assume he's not talking about the first three lines of your thing, of your special. So I gave it more of a chance. But I think about my show in the same way.

My show's obviously not that funny and totally different. I put stuff in there. And if I record something and it just doesn't go that well, I go, I can't put that in my feed. And my tip for new podcasters is if you don't think, damn, that was good. Don't put it in your feed because even if you're on episode 400, there's people who are going to go, I'll just check out that show you recommended. That's the first encounter that they have with you.

And they're like, that Jordan guy just tried to be funny for 40 minutes. What a dips. I can't believe people like this. Who is this person? And you see that in your iTunes reviews. You'll put up something and you're not that proud of it. And like a week later, it's like, this show sucks. Why is everyone recommending it?

And you heard the episode I did with that one guy, didn't you? And it's not worth it. And it's not worth doing that to people that you think might become connections later. Even if you're not even thinking about that at the time, it might do well to realize that in business or in any craft that you do, you're always communicating. You're always creating a relationship or you're warning people not to do that. There's also the thing that people don't realize is like there's nothing in it for me. Meaning helping you, I always tell people like, I didn't move to L.A. to do your shit. You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good point. I didn't think about that. Like, I moved out here to do my shit. I didn't move out here to like, and then hopefully somebody will just call me and I moved out here because I have my own goals and my own like ideas that I want to get done. Most people will help you if they think if it's mutual. If there's a mutual benefit to it that worked out for me, it's like Jay took a joke from my notebook.

I pitched a joke to Dave. So then when these guys started getting TV opportunities, they were like, well, who can help me? Who writes things that I like? Yeah. Yeah. I've made a lot of money off of. of helping people for no reason other than the love of the game. Like other than like,

I just Dave had an idea and I was like, hey, do this. And then that snowballs into half bait, snowballs into Shepal show, snowballs into everything I've ever done. Like Schumer, before Schumer had a show, she was doing the roast. And she asked, we were friends.

She was like, can you help me with the roast thing? I don't even think I, she used anything I pitched. And then she gets a show. she asked me to direct it, then she does a Bud Light campaign with Seth Rogen. And I don't even like those Bud Light, but whatever. So, but it's on the Super Bowl,

and it's a big, spectacular thing. So it's like, and I got work with Seth and Evan, and I like this guy. No one's going to help you in a way that's not beneficial to them in some way. We call it not keeping score, and we call it giving generously for the obvious reason that you're giving generously,

and you're also not expecting anything necessarily in return. You're giving generously like, look, I got this thing that maybe you can use. You're not thinking like, if he uses that, I am in money, right? You're thinking like, if he uses that, that's cool. And then eventually you're not thinking like, I gave Jay a joke.

So where's my comeback? This was like in the 90s. So I knew that Larry David had sort of knew Jerry Seinfeld from comedy clubs. And then Jerry Seinfeld was like, hey, I got the sitcom you want to work on it with me. So I knew that that was a thing that happened. And I wanted to work with Dave.

I always felt like we could do good stuff together, but... Dave Chappelle, yeah. Okay. But there was a, not even altruism. I was just like, if I think of a joke, I can't not tell someone. If I think of a tag for someone to act, like, I haven't done it this week, but there's very few weeks that go by that I don't text someone like, hey, when you say that, maybe try saying that's like, you know, I do it with Chris Rock.

I do it with everybody. Does anybody ever get annoyed? Like, thanks for your suggestion, guy who works at the door, but I got my shit. Oh, yeah, yeah, there was a ton of that. Like, Chappelle didn't like it the first time I pitched him, but the joke that I think that I pitched him worked. Oh, so he did try it. Like, he knew when I pitched it that it would work. But he's annoyed that you thought of it.

I'm not saying, like, look, there's going to be resistance. Like, there's plenty of people who don't, who I'll pitch a joke and then they won't use it. And I'm like, an idiot. Like, dude, I'm telling you that'll work. But people, again, people didn't move out here to do my shit. Yeah, yeah. Which I get. So I don't, like, begrudge them.

I just stop pitching them. You're cut off. No more jokes for you. I just go like, okay, they're never going to take my stuff. So why? Why waste your time? Yeah. Yeah. And the brain power.

So are you thinking of jokes for specific people in their act? Are you like, I have this generally good thing? Oh, no, no, no. If I have a generally good thing, I'll do it myself. But if I'm watching someone's act, there's a, like, a hole or they say something and they could say more, I will, like, text them like, hey, you might want to say this. That's a unique skill set. I don't know how many people do that for other people or are.

are even able to do it for other people. Have you seen that a lot? I mean, that's kind of what being a comedy writer is. Just writing stuff for other people all the time? Well, no, not unsolicited, but when you write on a TV show, your job is, you work a scene, and then everybody punches it up.

Sure. I can see that. It feels like if I'm working on your show with you and Dave Chappelle, I'm studying all your stuff and your voice, and I'm watching it over and over, and you're kind of doing that, but it's automatically happening in your head.

I don't try to, like, immerse myself. It's like, I, you know, I can write for Chris Rock because I'm a fan of his. Right. So I know his subjects. I know what he likes to talk about. I know how he likes to talk about it. So it's not like, think like Chris. What would Chris say?

It's just, it is automatic. So it would be theoretically really hard for you. If you're like, hey, look, we're hiring Neil Brennan to write for you, Jordan. You're like, this guy, I don't know this guy. I don't know what he does. I want to get out of here ASAP. I don't want to, I don't know how to write for this guy. And it's like, you're getting a million dollars a week.

and you're like, oh, God, it's going to be a lot harder, right? If the person doesn't have a voice, it's hard. But if the person doesn't have, like, a clear comedy voice, then it's harder. But it's not impossible. It's not as easy. It doesn't flow. Well, yeah, it's like it doesn't suggest. It's like when, you know, somebody hosts SNL who's like an actress or something.

And they're all like, all the writers are like, Jesus Christ. Like, what? Like, you know, it's easy when it's Melissa McCarthy or Larry David or people that have a clear comedy voice. but if it's like some chick who just did an action movie and is hot, it's like, Jesus Christ. So then you're just making, you're just doing jokes because they're hot, but it's not because they have a clear comedic force. You grew up, you had kind of a rough childhood and your dad was a little bit hard on you from the sound of it or a lot hard on you from the sound of it. How does that kind of thing alter the way that you develop emotionally? And I don't mean like

from a therapist perspective here, but in terms of expression of feelings and stuff like that, which you kind of have to do a lot of in comedy maybe, how does it alter that? How does it get in there and mix up? I mean, I don't know any, too many comedians that are, like, extremely happy as people. Yeah, I kind of notice that, and I don't know why that is. Because part of it is, like, comedy requires brutal clarity, and you are not especially happy. You see the world in an unsentimental way, and you can see things clearly.

And then you, so you take, like, a brutal, honest, truth, and then you basically spiff it up and put a tuxedo and a funny hat on it, and you've got comedy. To begin with, you start from something like brutal, and then you sort of charm it up. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Neil Brennan. We'll be right back. And now, back to Neil Brennan on the Jordan Harbinger show. People are right now, they're yelling at their iPhone or whatever they're using the play this, and they're like, the jokes make up for the sadness. and it's like that's kind of the easy, obvious, there's more to it than that. Like you just mentioned, you have that brutal sense of clarity.

And they even say they being like scientific American mind, for example, like depressed people have a more accurate outlook on reality. Yeah. And then it's good to have depressed people in a work group. I've actually said that at times. I've gone like, hey, can we look at this pessimistically? Really? Yeah.

Because I think you're more prone to make mistakes if you assume things are going to go well. It's like Jerry Seinfeld has said about standup, bad audiences make you edit and good audiences make you expand. So it's like, let's assume this isn't going to work. Why? What are the potential pitfalls for whatever this idea is? And then can we mediate that before we even start? Like when I'm writing comedy, I can't assume like, they're going to be on board for this.

Then I'm going to say that. Like, I have to assume that the audience is going to drive a hard bargain. Right. You have to assume that they're like me and they're looking at those no cards. And they're like, like, what the fuck? Yeah, exactly. So which is why I only do a few one-liners up front. But I know, like, a friend of mine did a special, and he put a great joke.

And I said, is that your closer? And he's like, no, I put it third. And I was like, why? And he's like, because people will turn it off. And I think that's a good way to look at things. Because I've actually imparted that wisdom to other people. And they go, no, they won't turn me off. Really?

So you're the exception to human nature. I think there's something to pessimism. It can fuck your life up, but I think it's a decent thing to be mindful of. If we're trying to apply this at home, for example, outside of comedy writing, how does that exercise, if you will, work? Is it just like, let's assume that the first thing we do just bombs, and the second thing we do also doesn't work. Is that kind of the real?

Yeah, I do that in everything because I direct stuff sometimes, like I said, like I direct commercials and I direct TV shows and stuff. And directing is all about having an offensive plan and a defensive plan. Like, so I'll have a shot that I want. And then it'll be while oneer and we'll just it'll be no edits and did it. I'm like, well, but also I need to get shots in case that doesn't work. I need to get like sort of static defensive coverage in case this big ideas doesn't work. And with stand up comedy writing or whatever, it's just looking at things critically.

And like, what if it doesn't work? You need to have a backup plan. Whenever people are like, I have, there is no plan B. I'm like, oh, you're an idiot. Yeah, you're screwed. This has to work. Okay, well, then you're fucking yourself. You have to have a defensive plan.

It's like in stand-up. People always said, like, it was fun to watch Johnny Carson bomb. Johnny Carson, the old host of the Tonight Show. Like, when he bombed, it was as funny as when he killed because his bomb, he would, like, fidget and look off to the side. And it was funny to watch. So Dave Chappelle has said, like, you can tell how funny someone is by how they bombed. So it's like, do you show you? or do you realize like, well, this isn't going well?

And then you're funny and you're honest. And your backup plan is your sort of saver. That's a really good point. I hadn't thought about that before. Once I was at the laugh factory, the comedy store, I can't remember. I was with my parents sitting at a table. They were seated kind of away from me

because they wanted to see and not creating their necks. And the guy who was one of those open mic kind of short set deals. First guy doing crowd work, the whole audience was like, oh, why you sit with these two old people? Oh, they're my parents. and then he kind of played with us for a little bit. The next guy comes up and does this like really raunchy masturbation joke. And he points at me and he's like, this guy and he just goes to town.

The whole audience is kind of quiet because they know I'm with my parents. And he goes, what the hell happened here? That usually just crushes it. And then he goes, wait, are those your parents? Oh my God, I'm so... And he made a big deal out of that. It was in everybody. The tension, it built up so high at that point that the whole...

room just exploded and laughter. And I thought he could have blown that really easily by being like, oh, and then just move down to the next thing. When I pitch movies or pitch TV shows or whatever, and it's not going well, I will literally say that. Like, well, this isn't going good. And I think if you say it in a confident way, it makes, even though you're still going to bomb, you're bombing less. Yeah. If you just say like, oh, this isn't going well. If you do it in a sweaty way, if you're doing it a needy way, it can backfire, but there have been times where I've been pitching movies and I've said to the person that I was pitching to that we were bombing with, I was like, all right, well, we're going to come back in a year and pitch you another one. I think if you're pitching or meeting people or whatever or

trying to sell yourself in some way, I think if you say like, look, I can see you don't like it, I understand, I'll come back. Like, if you're, instead of just this sweaty thing of like not acknowledging what's happening, I think that can make it way worse. It's like a bad. Shark Tank. You ever watched that show? Yeah, 100%. They're just getting killed and you're like, you just, you suck through your teeth because you're like, this guy. You want the person to be like, all right, this isn't working. I'm rescinding my offer.

Or just like, I'm just going to show you the product because I'm blowing it. Like right now. I'm not even going to show you the product. This is going so badly. I'm going to walk back out there. I would love that. If someone on Shark Tank was like, you know what, you guys, this is over. I don't know if that would make air, but it would be an awesome episode of Shark Tank for you. It'd be hilarious.

You wrote Half Baked. that movie, speaking of pitching movies, I don't remember why that movie didn't do well, because when I watched... Because it opened against Titanic, Golden Eye, and Goodwill Hunting. That'll do it. That'll do it.

But I watched that movie, I don't know, 50 times, and I haven't watched the other ones 50 times combined. Because I don't even know. I wasn't like a pot smoker or anything like that when I was in high school or college and whenever that came out. It just turned into this weird, is cult classic the right term? Like it was this underground college

Like probably did a million times better on DVD than it did in theaters. Almost to the number a million times better. When you're doing Chappelle's show, did you decide, look, I want to be performing instead of only writing? I mean, how did the transfer? That's the thing. Like, I was never watching Dave being like, I should be Rick James. He's an amazing performance.

I was never jealous or envious of the attention he got. Like, I was happy with the amount of attention I was getting. Like, when the show ended, it was like, oh, well, I'm at the whims of somebody else here. Yeah. I need to be more self-determining and do something where, and I'd been doing stand-up a bit, so I was like, let me focus more on that. When you're writing a show like that,

that's doing so freaking well, you mentioned, well, we got to look at things pessimistically and figure out if they maybe aren't going to work. Is there ever a moment when you're writing something like that? And you go, it's definitely going to work. This is Chappelle's show. We're killing it. Or did you always kind of go, well, you know?

Yeah, there was never, I mean, I was thinking pessimistically. You have to think pessimistically. The reason things worked is because, Because further upstream, I and Dave were worried about whether it was going to work or not. And we corrected it or we made it good because we needed a joke. Like we would go, we need a joke here. We can't move on until we have a joke here. Like Chappelle hosts at SNL a couple months ago and I worked on it with him and it was like,

there was a sketch we did. And I was like, we don't have an ending. And he was getting mad at me. I'm like, dude, you can get mad at me all you want. We don't have an ending. Then we figured it out. but it came from me saying we don't have an ending and him going, I think we do.

And we go, no, I don't think we do. You know, as much as I was a pain in his ass, I was correct. And that happened, and there were plenty of times where vice versa, like, where he'd say, I don't think we have a joke here, I don't think we have an ending, and I'd be like, if someone criticizes something,

even if you don't agree with him, I think it's worth maybe coming up with a solution. That's a really good point. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. Because even if they're wrong, worst cases you worked out this non-existent problem. That's like when people like, I like this joke, it's like, okay, I don't. Take 40, how long it it would take you to think of the joke?

A split second, take another two minutes and try to beat it. It becomes this ego thing and it becomes this defensiveness thing. Like, well, no, it works and da-da-da-da-da. And I like it. I bet you do like it. You thought of it. I bet you like it. Me and a buddy of mine used to be the head writer, Sient Live would say that people go,

like, we like that being. he's like, oh, I know you do. The audience didn't like it. And we work for the audience. So you need to come up with a better joke here or whatever. So like you said, if you try to come with a solution and you can't, then you've done your due diligence and you can sell, do whatever you're doing with a clear head. But the goodness is you may think of a way better joke.

Yeah, it's more. Or way better anything. Like a lot of what experience is, in my case, it's comedy. Like, it's like seeing patterns and remembering like, oh, this reminds me of that and that didn't go well. So how can I work against that? That's what wisdom is. That's what experience is. It's like we may be making that mistake.

How do we avoid making that mistake? How clear is that image of like the pattern in your head? For example, are you just going, I feel like this doesn't work? Are you like, no, last time we tried this and this and this followed this pattern and it didn't work. You know, how crystal in this. It's very clear. Really? That's what experience is.

Like working on Siret Live a bit this year, hung out with Lauren Michaels a bunch, and he's been a comedy writer for like 50 years and wrote for shows that you've never heard of literally 50 years ago. And he'll talk about a sketch. At Sionat Live, they read 50 sketches a week. Jeez.

So, okay, so that's 50 sketches a week, 25 times a year, for 43 years. So he'll talk about sketches and go, yeah, I've seen that sketches. 10 times. I've written myself twice. And he's not talking about that literal sketch. He's talking about that pattern of sketch, that format, that formula, whatever you want to call it. So a lot of it is just seeing a pattern and going. Like when we were at Sire Live, the week Dave hosted, there was a sketch that somebody pitched and it was a funny pitch. But I knew where it was headed. And I was

like, I said to Dave, I was like, that's a good idea. But something tells me it's going to be flat when we read it, and sure enough, it was flat when we read it, because I knew what the idea was. How do you test stuff like that? Do you have a focused audience in there? You just like, in the back of your head, you're like, this is still not funny? Because we're rehearsing it and sucks. You just can tell, like, by being a comedian and being a funny person, you just like, does it in funny? It seems like it would be really easy to start writing comedy for comedians, instead of writing comedy for an audience of people who just got done. It's the same thing. I mean, Comedians might not laugh, but look, that's a good joke.

Like, that's the thing is you get to the place where you're like, ah, it's a good joke. We all recognize, like, a good joke when we see it. Having said that, I have a ton of experience, a ton of boots on the ground, et cetera. I still bomb regularly or do a joke that bombs regularly. Like, I do a new material show usually every Tuesday in Santa Monica and the West Side Comedy Theater in L.A., and I do jokes every week that don't work. There are things like, I think this might work. the thing about comedy is this should work, but it's a fickle thing, and it's really subtle,

and it's the highest level of difficulty. And if you can do stand-up or do, you can pretty much do anything, if you look at, like, the things that comedians do that actors can't fucking do, how many actors do you know that can write their own show? Because I know 20 comedians that can. Yeah, you kind of have to. Yeah. Their own show, not their ass. I'm not talking about their ass. No, no, yeah, like a sitcom. How many actors do you know that can write their own monologue? and then write their own television show and do 25 episodes a year for eight years. Because like I said, I know a lot of comedians

and movies and then direct movies. And then, you know, it's like comedians can do a lot of stuff. It's incredible, actually. And it seems like the kind of thing that you would not get good at for a really long time when you start. Yeah, it's like incredibly trying. There are people that are good immediately.

I think Chappelle was good immediately when he was like 14 he started. Jeez. I've heard Schumer was good immediately. I've heard like there are people that are good immediately. immediately. But yeah, it takes a long time to get good at. And that's the thing is that there's really no shortcut. You can be good look and whatever, but if you don't have good jokes,

ultimately the thing about stand-up is, in comedy in general, whoever writes the most good jokes is the most successful, period. Meritocracy. Complete meritocracy. You know who's written the most good jokes? Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Bill Burr, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Jerry Seinfeld. Like, these are not. Like who? Wait, who's that? This is the hall that you get to, it's like, Whoever has the most home runs is Babe Ruth. When you hit 750 home runs, you get to be Babe Ruth. And stand-ups the same way. It's like whoever writes the most good jokes is the winner.

We talked earlier about trying to achieve things or trying to get good at something in order to make yourself feel better because you struggled with depression for a while. I mean, do you still? Yeah. Still do? There's a lot of people that are obviously in the same boat. A lot of people write in as well looking to apply what they learn on the show

to issues like, depression, other types of sadness and things like that. And what advice do you have for people who are thinking, holy crap, this is me. I'm trying to achieve stuff or get ahead or do something great in order to overcome depression. I overachieve in order to make up for something I'm lacking elsewhere in my life. I mean, that's something you've dealt with. That's what it is. That's what achievement is. I mean, I think like all achievement comes from feeling of deficiency. I think there are some exceptional people who are like, my father and mother told me I was great. and it turns out I'm great.

Yeah, they were right. Yeah, again, there are rare instances, but most of it comes from a feeling of deficiency. And this has just happened for me recently, where I finally feel like I've achieved enough shit in my life that the voice in my head have lost credibility. Like the negative voices, it's like, you couldn't do without Dave, you did it do.

And then I done enough stuff in my life where it's like, okay, I've written for so many TV shows and done it well. I have a stand-up specials that are well-received. I've done enough shit at this point that's like, all right, voice in my head. Like, you're just wrong. You're wrong. Yeah.

But it took 25 years. And it may go away too. That's the other thing. It's like this could be a result of a part of me thinks it's like these things that I finally achieved and finally like three mics being really well received and me finally going like, hey, give yourself a break, kid. Or it could just be because I started taking Zoloft again five months ago. I don't know.

That's interesting because it almost to me is an outlet. outsider sounds like that's just the voice in your head telling you don't get too comfortable because we might pull the rug out there is that but like it's also all right there's too much evidence at this point there's too much evidence that I'm good at my job oh yeah no I'm not arguing against that yeah I know I know you yeah I just meant the voice in your head telling you not to get too cozy because you know you're worried about that it the other thing I found though is that there's no real happiness in it I read a prince quote recently that I've been telling a lot of people which is somebody was telling them, like, write more songs,

why don't you run another hit? And Prince looked at them and said, look, I've been to the mountaintop, there's nothing there. Like, I've achieved a lot of shit. Any happiness I have, or a good portion of happiness I have, is from meditation and from my own outlook on what life should be.

Because I've done a bunch of stuff, and it's like, man, it's pretty cool to, like, do a Netflix special that people like, and it's pretty cool to do a TV show. Again, you hear this all the time, which is happiness is a choice. And I've become more aware of that in the last six months

than ever in my life. It really is just a matter of like, I can look for external validation, but ultimately it's just got to come down to like, do I want to be happy or not? There are things I can do to make myself happy in a way that's not outcome-based.

There's a term unconditional happiness. I'm not going to be happy if I'm just going to be happy. You know, that's what I've focused more on in the last few months. And that's been working out really well so far. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure you're, listen and be like, you don't sound happy. It's just because I'm fighting a cold. And I don't know how to parse out

what's the approval I've been getting and what's the medication and what's the new outlook. But I meditate every day and I do CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy, which is like a, there's a list of 10 negative thought styles, which just Google it. It's really excellent. And I've been more aware of those thinking styles and trying to play defense against it in myself. Like I said, I have a good resume it wasn't necessarily making me happy until I realized like this resume it doesn't make a difference you know like I went on vacation with my girlfriend I'm single now but we went on vacation and to like Bali and we were doing nothing and she's like you're so happy and I was like I love not doing shit like this makes me happy and figuring out that like all right go to do that do more of nothing

like I didn't do shit yesterday it was great I didn't do jack shes in a It was fantastic. I'm lucky in that I don't have to work all the time, but there's something, too, like, what makes you happy? I like playing video games sometimes. Look it. Play a video game. Like, do the thing that makes you happy.

There's such a premium put on achievement. I'm just saying, as someone who's done a lot of this stuff and is successful, and the next chapter is what makes me truly happy and what kind of life am I going to lead from the inside out, not from the outside of it. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Neil Brennan. We'll be right back. After the show, we've got a preview trailer of our interview with the one and only Dr. Drew Pinsky of Loveline fame.

Always love that guy. Stay tuned for that after the close of the show. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. You know you got to support those advertisers to keep us going. To learn more and get links to all the discounts you just heard so you can check out the deals for yourself all in one place, those are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. We also have worksheets for today's episode and every episode. The link to those is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com.

Now, for the conclusion of our episode here with Neil Brennan. You tried a ton of stuff to get rid of the depression. I mean, ketamine and then TMS, which is like brain magnetic stimulation. I mean, just like stuff that goes beyond the Zoloft or like the... Yeah, yeah, I try fucking anything. Like, I've tried everything, including achievement. it. Like as a thing. Which is harder than ketamine. Yeah, I've tried everything and just has to come to a point where you go, all right, it's not outside of me. It's just not outside of me. It's not about like making contacts and following up and sending out even. It's like, yeah, that's fine. It's not that meaningful. I can work on Cynette Live or I can work on Chappelle Show or I can do a Netflix special. If I don't like it, if I'm not happy doing it, what's the point? So I can say I did it. I have enough shit. I can. I can do it. I have enough shit. I can. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can can say I did. It's such a tempting trap for people, though, man. It's not even a tempting trap. It's

our whole society. It's not even a trap. It's, I mean, it is a trap, but the whole thing is a trap. It's all a trap. Yeah. Like, and I'm not trying to get to, like, you know, matrixy, but it is like philosophical. Yeah, it's like, it is, truly is all a trap. It's like, people have ambition and don't even know why they have it. It's like, where is it coming from? What's the point? It's like approval seeking behavior at that point. Yeah, like, and it's, and it's, and it's, and it's, it's, It's just a habit. It's a habit that's like, do you like it? Do you really like it?

Do you feel fulfilled by it? If you do, great. Chances are you're full of shit or it doesn't actually fulfill you. Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we used to do, that I used to do personally, especially in this business early on, was just like, it's got to be big. We have to have like a good social media following and all this stuff and people have to really understand our mission. And then when I kind of decided that that was less important than just having

conversations with people that I found interesting, the show. the show freaking just took off from there. Yeah. It just took up. Because it was like, what do I actually like? I like interesting shit. That's part of what was good about Three Mikes. It's like, well, who am I actually?

Because there's a lot of comedians that are on stage and then that's not you. That's not who you are. This was the thing about Three Mikes. It's like, this is who I actually am. I don't have all the charisma and charm that a lot of my peers have. And Three Mikes was in some way explaining why I don't.

You know what I mean? I'm going on. Yeah, I do. I have clinical depression and I had a weird childhood. I've been doing all this stuff. Here's my story. There are people now that they know the story will like me forever. It's not because when I walk into a room, people want to say yes before they know what the

question is. And it's not because of that. It's because I'm honest and I'm relatable as a result. You kind of nailed the whole concept behind the show, which is like authenticity in the face of just whatever sort of is going on up here. Yeah. Because that I feel like, and I know, is much more interesting and attractive

and relatable to other people. You can't have friends if they don't know the real person inside. Yeah. But a lot of people are afraid to show that because they're busy covering it up with a mask of like, look how freaking cool I am and accomplished I am.

That's the antithesis of what we're doing here. We're trying to show people that like, look, all the crap that you think makes you not as palatable as you would like is the stuff that makes you real and therefore is the stuff that you should actually probably check. In my case, it was like, I took an acting class probably seven years ago, and I would do scenes and the acting teacher was like,

you're not being real. And I was like, dude, I'm such a sad person. You don't want to see it. And then he was like, no, you have to do it. And I did it. And it was like, oh. And that was the first time people were like, dude, you're really good. And I was like, oh, okay.

It's like, Republicans do it a lot politically where they'll go like, they'll say what's our weakness and they'll make it a strength. Oh, right. It's like a job interview. My weaknesses, I'm just too detailed oriented. I think it's more like, was John Kerry a war hero

or was he a coward? You know what I mean? Like, you think he's so great. It's actually you've got it 100% wrong. It's like, is Neil too sad? Let me show you like way more of three mics is like a stylistically, I do it in an artful way.

I'm not just like, hmm. You know, like I try to, I explain it in a way. Yeah. I explain in a way that's like, like you can understand it and it's helpful to people. But I'm not saying like, you just got to be honest all the time. I just think that there are things that people keep secret that are unnecessary.

I think what I found is everyone's got a thing. And whereas I just went first and then everyone comes out. It's like, I'm depressed. I have a bad thing with my dad. So everyone's got a thing. And it's like when people apologize on dates where they're like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm being so serious. I'm like, this is all I want to talk about. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't need to hear about all the great things that are going on your Instagram feed. Yeah, I don't care what move. I don't care that you can quote Anchorman. Like, I don't give a shit. But I think that it is about, like, what do you actually find enjoyable and then doing that and being yourself unapologetically? You said that you did a lot of honest writing when you were in a 12-step program. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Is that something we can apply it all? I think it's just that thing I said about brutal clarity. It's the depression thing. in some ways the three mics is the M&M thing at the end of A mile, which is like, I am white, I am a bum. What are you going to say about me? Like literally, what's the meanest thing you can say about me? I'm a star f***er.

Okay, guess what I'm doing a monologue about? I'm a star f***er. Here's why. Makes sense now that you hear it, doesn't it? Like, because I have no self-esteem, I was fucking chasing celebrities around. It's like, what's the worst thing people can say about you? The reason I said it in public is the thing that I, this is going to sound crazy, but I read it in Mysteries book.

Really? It's the thing in Mysteries book, it says, if you're going out to pick up girls, give your buddy $300 and say, give me $100 back every girl I try to talk to, right? So this was, I would do that with standup. I would give somebody $300 and say, every time I smile for more than five seconds, give me $80, whatever, give me my money back. First time I did it, I lost $220. on. But this was my way of saying like, okay, by calling myself a star figure in public makes it

way more embarrassing to do it for me. I can't do it anymore. Like I can't in good conscience, having called myself this in public, it's like where people will post their exercise results online. It's a bit of that where it's like, I'm making myself accountable. So if people see me with a famous person, they're going to be a little disappointed. Like, mother fuck, I thought you weren't hiding anymore. You know? And that's what I kind of am doing.

Like, that's kind of what I was doing. And that's being brutally honest with yourself and figuring out a way to make yourself stop doing it. How do you stay motivated to start again, and this might not be the right terminology, so pardon me, but at the quote unquote bottom, I mean, you're doing open mic stuff. Mm-hmm.

Or you were doing open mic stuff. Yeah. You already sort of touched the brass ring with the Chappelle show. Yeah. How do you say motivated? Because I think a lot of people, when they heard I was interviewing here, they're like, oh, yeah, he's bouncing back.

Like, that must be tough. And I thought, yeah, maybe he doesn't look at it like that or maybe he does. Everything you do is starting at the scratch. I mean, as a comedy writer, writing is so fucking hard that, like, it's all starting from scratch. So, like, from the maker of blank doesn't really get people in the seats. It does a little bit, but not really. Like, especially now there's so much media saturation. I see it all as like starting from the bottom.

I think when you write a movie or direct a movie, it's hard for everyone. It's literally even being movie starts and no one gets everything they want. There's always someone who's better than you. For a long time was Will Smith and then now he kind of seems to have lost something. So they go, Kevin Hart.

Well, Kevin will do it or whatever. And even when it was Will, there was movies that Denzel Washington would get that he couldn't get. Like there was always somebody. In showbiz, you have to do. do it every day. That's how it's like sports. It's like they don't win Bronn plays. They don't automatically give him 30 points. Yeah, good point. He has to score every

game and it's people might play your defense against him, but mostly it's because he's bigger and faster than them. Yeah. I'd see it as bouncing, whatever you want to call it, but because it did Chappelle Show, people are not predisposed to like something else I do if they don't like it. Because your friend recommended it, you gave me more time, but like everyone's defensive about everything. You don't really get the benefit of the doubt for the most part. So you shouldn't play like you have it. The best example of this I can think of is I talked to Eddie Murphy one time about when he was on Saturday Live and I said, did you just feel like you were dominating and like you were just killing and you had the minus touch and he's like, no man, it was week to week. I just was trying

to survive. And you think about all the shit he did, but he was like, I was just trying to get sketches on. Yeah. And that's life in showbiz for sure. I think the way the world is now. I think I think everything is like so market-based. No one's going to give you money for nothing, like for the most part, other than, of course, voiceover. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah. Which is the easiest money. There's some of that.

You do a bunch of that, huh? Yeah, I did a bunch of stuff for Samsung like two years ago for like a year and a half. It was the best. I did Grand Theft Auto four and three. What did you deal? Bad guys. Great. Like Russians and, you know, explosion, guys who are involved in the character's life.

Of course, a lot of those little side gig guys where it's like a radio DJ or nerd and then like a million pedestrians. Great. Because they just wanted to knock those guys out and you're already in there. Can you do an Indian accent? And I'm like, not really.

And they're like, just try it. Just try one. It doesn't have to be real. Yeah. So you just do this like really racist Indian accent. And they're like, nailed it next. Yeah. That is kind of free money.

I remember getting like $445 for like an hour of work. Yeah. I thought I was going to get like a T-shirt or something. And I was like, sign me up. for every video game ever, and then I sucked it, like, all of the things. Yeah, you're also not going to get free money for long. Like, if you'd suck, they wouldn't have gotten again. I did a couple other ones, but man, doing, like, aliens and stuff, it's so much harder

than people think. Like, you're thinking of an awesome character. They want that, but 10% in a different way, and you just can't do it. Like, unless you're an actor, you just can't do it. You had a great quote where you summarized a little bit of this. You said, I never going to be more successful than I've been in the past two years. I have a better chance of being eaten by a shark. Yeah.

I'll never be famous, but I've got financial. financial success. People in showbiz seem to want to work with me, and I get to control the stuff I write. Fame gives you noise, which is freaking worthless. I've got a girlfriend I love, so I can't use it to get women, and it's not like Dave and I got laid because of Chappelle's show. He was married and I'm pale. Yeah. What do you mean by fame gives you a lot of noise, I think that's a brilliant observation. What I've found with like the small amount of fame that I have in the last month or whatever, I've always said, like, I always say I'm famous like an NBA referee where people are like, where do I know you from. It can get you laid for sure, but I think for the most part, it's just like, if getting recognized

is mostly an exercise in calming the person down, when someone recognized you, they just start acting crazy and like, dude, I just got to say, dude, I can't believe you're here. And you have to just feel like, yeah, man, it's cool. Yes, I'll love to take a picture with you. Yeah, okay, great, here we go. We're going to take in a picture. Really nice to meet you. They're having a freak out. and you almost have to, like, give them CPR. In the middle of the grove. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you just have to, like, give them a little massage.

Like, it's going to be fine. Fame will get you. A lot of people acting weird around you. Yeah, that's mostly what it gives you. And then you might pick up, like, a good, like, voiceover gig. You can advertise, like, you can promote, like, liquor. Right.

Yeah, or you get, like, free twizzlers at the movie theater, because they're like, y'all. Yeah, I mean, love that Netflix. Yeah, sometimes you get free shit, but mostly it's like, it's valuable for men to attract women. Really shallow women that you just want. Yeah, or, you know, it just makes it easier,

even if they're not shallow. Yeah, I suppose that's true. That would have to have, it's just a social value. Yeah, you're high status. Yeah. But it's also really ephemeral. Like, your high status now, but then when you stop being high status, people look at you like, oh, poor thing.

Yeah. I remember when you were famous. Yeah, people feel bad for you, and they kind of are shuddy. to you. Yeah. Like, how you doing? And you're like, I'm fine. Thanks for treating me like somebody just died close to me. I've been fine for years. Like, I'm good. People think they act normal around celebrities. No one acts normal. No, it's like being around cops. Yeah. I'm driving the speed limits. See, I'm a normal driver. Yeah. Look at me drive.

Man, you've been really generous with your time. I appreciate it. There's a couple questions from listeners of the show that I feel compelled to ask you since you're sitting here. Do you have pre-show rituals? A lot of comics have things they have to do. I have none. None? No. I usually have to have like two mugs of tea. And to be honest, if you weren't here and we weren't doing this like in video, I'd have

something probably to take a leak in just in case. Really? Yeah. Are we on video? No, no, no. But you're here. I'm not going to like pee in the bottle in front of you. That would be a weird thing to do around anyone, let alone.

Yes, thank you. Yeah. Thanks for not doing that. Would you ever work with Dave again? I work with them on silent. Oh, you do? Yeah. But like on a project, I guess, with just you and M?

I don't think it's. even going to be an issue. You're not going to have that ever happen. No, no. And if I did, I would get the money up front. Yeah, yeah. Make sure it's in the bank. I love the comedy. You're one of my new favorites now. I don't say that to everybody that comes in. I know you're probably thinking, like, yeah, right, because a lot of people are like, sure, yeah, I'm a fan. Yeah, no, I understand that people are now seeing me for the first time. So I'm, I told it. Like I told you before, when we walked in, I was at a coffee shop and people were looking at me, like, I hope that he's wearing headphones. Yeah. Otherwise, we have to call the police. Yeah. And I don't normally

laugh out loud to comedy because a lot of us is not that funny. Even TV. I appreciate it, man. What's next for you, man? What's going on? I'm doing a couple pilots and just, you know, I'm around. And in the credits, it'll be like from the creator of and everyone about that, I don't care. People go, I don't, that means nothing to me.

Yeah, from Neil Brennan. That sounds familiar. Where do I know that, yeah? It'll have to eat the three mics guy. All right. Well, thank you. Thanks, Neil for this one. His comedy special on Netflix is called Three Mikes.

We'll link to it in the show notes. as always. Links to everything, always in the show notes. And if you buy a book from anybody you hear on the show, please do use our website links. It helps support the show, helping our sponsors supports the show. Worksheets for this episode in the show notes. Transcripts for this episode in the show notes. There's also a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube, or there will be soon. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter, Instagram. You can hit me on LinkedIn if you want to chat. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over

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This person was saying a bunch of crap. Didn't make any sense. And then you said something along the lines of, Is there someone else in there I can talk to? And then they were like, sure. Yeah, I could tell it was a multiple. Yeah, that's a pretty easy thing for me to tell. You listen with your whole body.

Okay. You don't listen with your ears. And that really started happening with dealing with drug addicts out in the clinic because they pull you into a vortex. If I hear the sound, you know, the little cartoon with these go yugged-d-dug-d-y-gog-y-gog-a-you-a-oh. Yeah, sure. I know I'm with a drug addictic. Okay. But I hear that yug-y-y-y-gut-a-old in my head, I got, somebody's doing drugs.

I just know it. I'm just going to be sitting here listening to somebody going, huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, and all of a sudden I go yuggedy yugger, I go, oh, okay, I got it. I can stop listening now and just start asking what they're taking, how much they're on, that kind of stuff. I'm thinking right now of this guy that called us and wanted to know. Women always forgot out when they find out what I was in jail for. And all of a sudden, Adam goes, wait a minute, find out that you were in jail or find out

what you were in jail for? He goes, what was in jail for? And then we go, oh, well, what were you in jail for? I broke into a mausoleum, and I twisted it off the head of an old lady and boiled it to a skull because I needed it for my little brother's snakes aquarium. Wow. And I thought, wow. Wow.

And you don't understand that might be a little disturbing to me. Well, why? Okay, so he was psychopath. Psychopath, yeah. Self-esteem obviously doesn't care if you're successful. Right. Self-esteem is something established, I think, by eight five. I mean, you can enhance it and you can move it a little bit, but most of it is set early.

And mine was bad. Yeah, that's okay. That's all right. It just if it gives you trouble, if it makes you feel bad, it gives you symptoms, it pairs you functioning, that's therapy time. Okay. Did you ever try therapy for that? It's 11 years.

Oh, my God. Not for that per se. I was having overwhelming anxiety. That was my main reason. At least that's my wife's reason for sending me. For more with Dr. Drew, including what experiencing imposter syndrome usually reveals about you and how we can spot the behaviors of addiction in others as well as in ourselves. check out episode 72 right here on the Jordan Harbinger show.

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