The Jordan Harbinger Show - 383: Aimen Dean | Nine Lives of a Spy Inside Al-Qaeda Part One

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

Aimen Dean (@AimenDean) was once one of al-Qaeda’s most respected bomb-makers who swore allegiance to Osama bin Laden himself. He eventually switched sides and spent eight years as an MI6 spy trying to take al-Qaeda down from the inside. He is the author of Nine Lives: My Time as the MI6’s Top Spy Inside Al-Qaeda and co-host of podcast Conflicted. This is part one of a two-part episode that will conclude later this week! What We Discuss with Aimen Dean: The radicalizing circumstances that contributed to Aimen's recruitment by Islamic extremists after memorizing the Quran by age 12. Early misgivings about the cause brought about by witnessing a brutal revenge massacre instigated by his own side during the Bosnian War when he was only 17. What Aimen learned about "logistical back-office jihad" and financing terrorism on a global scale while creatively accounting for a now-infamous charity front. Aimen's trip to Afghanistan at the behest of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed that led him to swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. What Aimen learned -- and taught -- about ingenious and terrible methods of torture that would extract confessions from victims without leaving permanent marks. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/383 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger show. You know, Smurfet, you know, this is a symbol of sexual freedom. They want to corrupt your mind into thinking that it's okay to mix with the other sex. That it is, you know, normal, basically, to have a crush on girls. So, of course, it was extremely puritanical. Mervet became synonymous with sexual freedom. You will get AIDS, you know, basically if you watch Smurfet. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories,

secrets and skills of the world's sharpest minds and most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening. If you're new to the show, we've got episodes with spies and CEOs, athletes and authors, thinkers and performers, as well as toolboxes for skills like negotiation, body language, persuasion, and more. So, if you're smart and you like to learn and improve, you're going to be right at home here with us.

Today on the show, Amin Dean, man, where do I begin with this guy? He was a top informant for MI6 in Al-Qaeda. So in other words, he joined Al-Qaeda, gets radicalized, turns into a double agent from MI6 informing on Al-Qaeda. Now he works for thanks and finance. So I'm not sure if there was an improvement here because, you know, he went from terrorists to banker. And I've been in finance. I've never joined Al-Qaeda, but I've got to say there's got to be similarities. Now he's investigating terror finance, among other things. His cover was blown by an intelligence leak in the United States.

You're welcome. Sorry about that. This episode went very long. It was fascinating. I wanted to get more time with Aymann. Poor guy had COVID-19 still did the show. So he's a tough guy. What can I say?

In part one, we'll find out how A. and becomes radicalized in the first place, joins Al-Qaeda and learns to make explosives and novel deadly poisons, finally gets arrested. I don't even want to ruin it for you. Let's get right to it. If you want to know how I book people like this, it's because my network now is bananas. I spent a decade and change making it. I'm teaching you how to do this in a free course called six-minute networking. The idea is to break this down into small chunks so you can build a network for business or personal reasons, and it's not going to take you friggin' hours every week. The course is at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. And by the way, most of the guests you

hear on the show, subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Without further ado, here's Aman Dean. Amon, you're an interesting guy. Thanks for coming on the show here. Thank you for inviting me. I didn't quite know where to start with somebody who has this prolific of a story, but I'm curious. You know, you started your book with this story of missing your nephew's wedding. And that to me really put your whole life kind of in the spotlight here because tell us why you missed the wedding. Tell us about the wedding. It was September 2016. My wife was pregnant with our first child, our daughter, and so I was supposed to go from Dubai to Bahrain to attend the wedding of my nephew.

For some reason, you know, three days before the wedding, my wife was beginning to have some this bad vibe. She was telling me, don't go, don't go, don't go. And I was telling her, come on. I mean, my nephew came to our wedding, he gave us gifts, all of these things. So why shouldn't I? And she said, somehow, I'm not having a good feeling about this. My advisors really follow your wife's intuition. They do have really good intuition. You know, and then the next day, I received a phone call from the authorities in Bahrain

telling me that they have uncovered a plot, well, basically to kill me. because those who were plotting to kill me were former members of La Kaida, who were still active, funny enough, and they were aware of my arrival. In fact, they were aware six weeks in advance that I am coming, and they were planning something. That's like before you knew you could go. That's crazy.

Exactly, because what happened is they relied on some female members to know from the female members of their family that, you know, of course, it's the wedding. of my nephew and I'm supposed to come. All the uncles are coming. So that's how they knew I was coming and they realized, okay, fine. They know what?

Just before time, we need to know when he's landing. And once he is in the wedding, we will know he's inside. Once he is making his way back to the airport to go back to Dubai, we're going to intercept him and, of course, do the rest. Right, and the rest was what? You don't really know,

but they were going to kidnap you or something? Well, it was supposed to be a kidnap. and a filmed beheading. Oh, wow. Yes. Do people still want to kill you and film it, you think? I hope not. I hope they are too busy now with their own problems.

One of the things why always people ask me, why am I so relaxed, even though there were two attempts of my life in 2009 and then in 2016? And I say, because I'm not the biggest problem they have. There is a big difference between jihadist groups and the mafia. The mafia, you know, basically don't forgive, don't forget. While Al-Qaeda and other jihadist groups, basically, while they don't forgive, they don't forget, but they believe basically that if there is an opportunity, do it, but don't pursue. Why?

Because they say that, you know, my bigger punishment awaits me in the afterlife. Because I believe I'm a traitor. Right. And therefore, basically, I will burn in hell. So that's, you know, why you don't see a lot of assassination attempts against, well, former members of Al-Qaeda or ISIS. You know, if they catch them during the time they are actually spying on the groups, then of course, basically, there will be an execution party where, you know, you will be a head shorter and six feet under. But if you get away with it and you end up basically going somewhere else and living somewhere else and that's it, you go on with your life, They tend not to spend so much resources on trying to find you because they will fear that in the process of trying to find you, they will end up themselves being caught.

And a jihadist fears the idea of being incarcerated. They love to be either dead or in the field, but not to be imprisoned. Right, which makes sense, especially given the way that they're treated in prison and also the belief in the afterlife, right? Indeed. Let's go back to the beginning. And before all this happened, because I highlight, I start with that because I wanted to highlight the idea that your life is still fairly complicated. And you've, I mean, you can't even go to a stinking wedding without attempted abduction, deheading, kidnapping, happen. You know, it's just the life you've made for yourself is anything but simple. No, it isn't.

But at the same time, I don't live my life in the open. I'm not reckless. While at the same time, I do give, you know, TV interviews and I do appear on some documentaries and all of that. At the same time, I don't announce my address to everyone. I don't tell them where I live. And at the same time, I have a very private social media presence. I don't have a Twitter account. I do my best, basically, to stay below the radar.

That's the first thing in terms of antagonizing my former associates. But nonetheless, for them, the fatwa on my head state clearly that I'm not a target of pursuit. I'm a target of opportunity. If you encounter him, then finish him off because they have bigger problems than me. Let's say put it this way. If someone starts trying to locate me, that will alert several authorities. Right. Yeah.

So don't Google Amundee, home address. Yeah, don't. When you were younger, you were steeped in Islamic study. You'd memorize the Quran by age 12. Did I read that right? That's impressive. I mean, that shows you were kind of like a prodigy when it came to this. Or just that you had a photographic memory.

Which one do you think it is? Photographic memory, I would say. Yeah, which served me a lot later. I was doing a lot of research on you as I do for most guests, and I found some really interesting and kind of funny anecdotes about your Islamic study, and I don't want it to come across as offensive, so hopefully it won't. But what's with the no Smurfs, no Pepsi, no Coca-Cola? What are these, like, silly, militant conspiracy theories?

There was a teacher of mine when I was young, and later he became the leader of Al-Qaeda inside. Arabia. You know, but when I was nine and ten, he used to be the head of our Islamic awareness circle, as we used to call it. He was telling us about all the corrupting Western influences. And, you know, at that time, one of the most popular cartoons we were watching as young kids were the smirfs. It was, of course, dubbed in Arabic, so it was quite accessible. And you just liked it, like the blue things, you know, walking around, like the language,

you know, which was funny and funky. But he thought, no, no, no, there is something sinister. There is an agenda here, you know, for Western powers to corrupt you, you know, smurfette. You know, this is a symbol of sexual freedom.

They want to corrupt your mind into thinking that it's okay to mix with the other sex. That it is, you know, normal, basically, to have a crush on girls. So of course, it was extremely puritanical. And, you know, this conspiracy that if you take a Coca-Cola logo and you actually put it in a mirror, while it is an English written, but the way it's written in English, if you put it in a mirror and you read it backward, it says, no Muhammad, no, Makkah. Well, of course, it might say that if you squint your eyes and you actually tilt your head, you might finally, like, you know, reach that conclusion. So, yeah, it was extremely paranoid way of thinking because there was always the belief that they, you know, of course, when they say they, they mean by they, the West and the American globalization, cultural influence and the hedominy, you know, they believed in.

Or they believed it was out there to get them. It was out there to corrupt young, impressionable minds like ours. So that's why suddenly Smurfette became synonymous with sexual freedom. You will get AIDS, you know, basically if you watch Smurfette. I mean, it's so beyond ridiculous. But that's kind of what we're dealing with. I thought this anecdote was not only funny, but the Coca-Cola anecdote were, if you look at it backwards and they turn your head side, where it says no, Mohamed Nemeca. That to me, like the idea that there would be this global conspiracy that's Western, and then, it would get printed on a drink label so that, like, who can read this?

Oh, only people that read Arabic, but also backwards and upside down. Like, there's no logic to some of the paranoia that these al-Qaeda guys, these Islamic extremists, have really. Like, there's not, it's not like this well thought out, like, okay, we have all this set of reasons. And I'm sure some people do, and we'll get into that in a bit. But at the base level, when you're talking about, like, the young foot soldier level guys between 10 and 20 years old, a lot of these guys are just like,

Oh, my leader of my thought group says Smurfed is too sexual and that Coca-Cola is anti-Muslim because of this dumb non-reason. And so now we are starting to get radicalized. Well, of course, when you tell people, you know, that there are people who are out there to get you. And you ask why? Because we possess the truth. You see, you know, when you try to tell people that we monopolize the truth, that we are, well, let's put it, in inverted commas, God's chosen people, we are, you know, the ones who possess the truth and the only truth and the only version of the truth is ours and the only path to God is through our own faith. Therefore, you know, Western policymakers, you know, spend their days, in 24-7, devising plots to undermine Islam. The only reason, basically, why we are ruled by tyrants is because of the West.

The only reason why we are back with scientifically speaking is because of the West. The only reason why we are held back from development is by the West. In later years, of course I believed this when I was young because I was not knowing any better. But later in later years when I became to some extent part of the decision-making process of some of the Western intelligence agencies in later life, I realized that these fears were so unfounded because they are so incompetent even to, to have any success in holding anyone back. I think we give the West too much credit. I mean, I can't really disagree.

Like, I've seen some bungles. We've read about them. Yeah, there's no need to kind of pile on that. But yeah, it's like, look, guys, there's no secret cabal here. We miss some pretty obvious crap. Indeed. So, you know, later years, of course, I realize that the only people who are holding us back are ourselves, really. Absolutely.

And of course, like deeper philosophical stuff has its place as well. And we'll probably get to that a little later. But what was your process of radicalization? Sure, you learned that Smurfets trying to, you know, corrupt your mind and that Coke's trying to corrupt your body, Coke and Pepsi. But what beyond that, when did it start to get serious for you? You know, when did you start thinking like, oh, there's a reason I'm doing this and it's not just because some guy I trust said so.

There's got to be more to the story that made you start to think, look, I need to destroy the West and be martyred or whatever? Well, at the beginning, there was the fact that I grew up in a region that was extremely politicized. I mean, unlike young American, you know, school kids, they grow up in a law-abiding order society where the nearest real conflict to them is an ocean away from either side of the U.S. coasts. I mean, if you are in the, you know, in the West Coast, you know, the nearest conflict to you might be where, Philippines, you know, Indonesia, something like that. If you are in the East Coast, the nearest conflict to you basically will be where, you know, the Congo or, you know, the Western Sahara. You know, so really, any conflict is ocean away.

But where I was born, I was born in the city of Khobar in Saudi Arabia, which is in the eastern province. First of all, is famous for having, you know, being the home of the largest company in the whole world, Aramq. which is the largest oil company and the largest company by market valuation of any kind. And that's the first thing. The second thing I was born and raised during the time when the Iraq War,

Iraq-Iran war was taking place. Eight years of biggest trench war carnage that took place after World War II. Eight years where 1.2 million people died and it was ethnic and sectarian in its nature. Persians against Arabs, Shia against Sunni, which is for listeners, this is the equivalent of Protestants and Catholics fighting each other.

And so, you know, I grew up in a world where I was born in Saudi to a Saudi father, but to a Lebanese mother. And Lebanon itself was going through its own ethnic and sectarian civil war, which was a macrocosm of the entire region. So, you know, it's enough to politicize any child. So while an American child wouldn't feel the need to follow the news to understand what's going on, just 200 miles away, you know, basically, you know, Iraqi and Iranian airplanes were firing each other and, you know, the air forces and the navies were firing each other. And we hear about civilian aircrafts falling and all of that only within, you know, really two, three hours drive. So, you know, for me, you know, all of these events,

politicized me in a way that was religious, because the whole conflict was about the historical and sectarian nature of our faith in our region. And therefore, I was as, you know, I always been an annoyingly inquisitive child. To this day, actually, I am an annoyingly inquisitive adult, but that's another story. I was bombarding my mother, my older brothers, my teachers, my teachers, with questions about what is Shia, what is Sunni, what is this, what is that, like, you know, why, you know, we are having this war, why Saddam have a party called the Ba'ath Party? What does it, what does our Ba'ath means? You know, so it was enough to politicize me also because my mother was always, you know, worried about her family back in Lebanon, experiencing, you know, the vicious civil war there and wondering basically whether she will ever see them ever. And so I ended up. basically gulping two things, gulping religion, but in its sectarian form, and I was gulping politics in its militant form from a very young age. And then when I, and my mother always wanted as a youngest child to turn towards religion because she was saying, you know, well, my other

five brothers, you know, specializing either in chemical engineering or in oil engineering and all of these things, basically, I am supposed to do something, you know, more in the pursuit of intellectual and religious education. So I joined an Islamic awareness circle at the age of nine, as I said. And, you know, I started memorizing the Quran in 33 months. I ended up memorizing the Quran and my mother was so happy. But then months later, she passed away. So I think the passing away of my mother when I was only 12 years and 7 months

was an incredibly painful moment that pushed me towards no longer just looking at religion from the point of view of either politics or sectarianism. I was looking at it from the point of how it is a tool to help you deal with your grief and to understand how religion and faith can help you cope with pain. At that moment, one of my teachers told me that if you want to read a book that could help you understand grief and pain and how to internalize it from a religious and a spiritual, in particular spiritual religious point of view, then read the interpretation of the Quran by Sayyat Kutub. Sayyat Kutub, of course, is a famous religious Egyptian thinker who lived in the 1950s and

60s in Egypt and was executed actually by the socialist president Jamal Abdel Nassar in Egypt in 1966. However, he wrote this book over nine years period. It's a 6,000, sorry, 4,000 page book and six volumes. So basically, of course, writing this over nine years when he was in prison and he was, of course, you know, awfully mistreated there, you know, he wrote it through the prism of pain and reading his eloquent words, you know, which were not only revolutionary in its nature, in their nature, but also, you know, dealing with the pain of isolation, incarceration, suffering, and how to deal with that from a religious and spiritual point of view. I finished it in almost two years, you know, from 12 to 14.

And by that time, his ideas about the idols of capitalism and communism and socialism, how all of these are idols, all of these are, how can I say, heretical ideologies that doesn't have any place in Muslim societies and that therefore we need to rebel against such systems, whether it is a feudal system, if it is a capitalist system, it's a socialist or communist, we have to overthrow all of these. To restore what he called the kingdom of God on earth, he meant the caliphate. So, Sayyat Kutub's ideas were, you know, the first, you know, foundation block of the movements of the Muslim Brotherhood, of the jihadism after that, you know, including Al-Qaeda, including ISIS, and also, ironically, of the opposite side of the Sunni divide, of the Shia side, because the books of Strait Kutub were translated in prison in Iran by the current Ayatollah of Iran, the supreme leader Ayatollah. Ali Khamenei. So he influenced the political Islam and the militant Islam on both sides of the Islamic divide, the Shia and the Sunnis. So this is my first experience with radicalization. Wow. So you're reading these books from these influential authors. You know, you're suffering the loss of your mother. So you're diving head first into religion as, or further into religion

as a method to cope with the grief. So you're sort of young, vulnerable, precocious and self-educated and being influenced by people who don't really have your best interest in our radical themselves. Indeed, and also don't forget that, you know, while I grew up, there were many people who were traveling from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight the jihad against the communist Soviets. But at that time, America was on their side. Right. And therefore, basically, America and the West generally was not viewed as the enemy. The enemy was those so-called godless communists. But another conflict was brewing in the heart of Europe, in the Balkans, which caught my attention.

It was the Bosnian conflict. You see, when I was 14, I was attending a middle school. It was late 1992, and the Bosnian conflict was raging by then for several months. And as you know, basically, in Bosnia, they voted for independence from Yugoslavia. I know the Serbian minority within Bosnia, aided by, you know, the Serbian Republic launched a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Right. Against the Bosniak Muslims and therefore the news, you know, and the footage that used to come from there were, you know, so vicious and so shocking in their nature. I remember I had a math teacher in Saudi Arabia in middle school when I was 14 and he was such a wonderful young man.

only 26, he come from a quite affluent family. His father was a brigadier general in the security forces. His uncle was the Minister of Transportation. So affluent family, his name, ironically, was Osama Mansouri. When we arrived back to school, when we came back to school after the summer vacation, a teacher came to our class to tell us that our math teacher was killed in Bosnia, fighting a jihad there. And he had a member of the Bahraini royal family.

Bahraini is just next door to us. It's a small country, but it's a small kingdom. And one member of the Bahraini royal family was there. So I remember wondering, why would a Bahraini prince and our teacher who come from a very affluent family would go and sacrifice their lives for people who we hardly knew about until months ago that they existed even? And I remember that teacher who was trying his best to attend. some sort of grief counseling with us but ended up, you know, giving an exhilarating lecture

about jihad. He said to us that a sacrifice does not taste so sweet unless if you have it all and you give it all away. And it was the first time I heard the three words of jihad, sacrifice, and martyrdom, all in the same breath. And it got me thinking so much as to how, you know, fascinating that what I was reading in Sayyid Quthr's interpretation of the Quran on the verses related to martyrdom and how he talked about it so passionately. He related these to modern day struggles of the Islamic movements against you know, the Arab nationalist and the communist, and before that, the French and British colonial

rule of the Arab world, as well as the Italian rule in Libya. So the way he related all of this, suddenly all came together, realize in my mind. Therefore, for the next two years, I was always following what was coming, you know, out of Bosnia in terms of footage and news about the atrocities and the massacres there. One day, I remember it was just, Just four days after my 16th birthday, I was meeting the brother of a friend of mine. That friend from the Awareness Circle was three years my senior, but by that time I had the tendency to mix with people, sometimes even six or seven years my senior, but, you know, because they were members of my awareness circle and I was more or less, you know,

mixing with older people because of my, you know, rather, I'm not trying to praise myself, but I know. You had the Quran memorized. You were like not at the same levels, the other. fifth graders or whatever, right? Yeah. So is it an awareness circle? Is this like a men's club?

Like, is this like an Islamic men's club, like a boys club? It was like a boy. Like a church group. It was more like the Sunday church school, except it was every day almost. Yeah, except it was every single day. Exactly, yeah. So I was meeting this friend's brother and we were having dinner together. And he told me, you know, my friend's name was Khalid.

He said to me, did you go and say goodbye to Khalid? and I said, no, and why? Where is he going in order for me to say goodbye? So he looked a little bit surprised. He thought I knew. He said, didn't he tell you that he is going to Bosnia? Really? I said, yeah, he's going to Bosnia for the jihad. So I said to him, no, I didn't. Somehow I finished the dinner and I said, okay, fine, I will just go and say goodbye to him. And in the ten minutes it took me to walk to his home, I made up my mind.

So when I knocked on his door, I said to her, your brother, Muhammad, just told me basically you're leaving to Bosnia. And he looked a little bit surprised. He was thinking that his brother shouldn't have blabbed about it to anyone. I said to him, look, when you're going, he said within a week. I said, you know what? How many of you're going? He said, we are three.

I said, you will be four. He said, why do you know anyone else going? And I said, well, you dumb idiot, it's me. I'm going to join you. Of course, basically, he was protesting, you know, my young age, and he said to me that jihad is not a picnic. people die, people lose limbs. You know, I said, yeah, I know, I'm aware of the risks.

I mean, basically, I've been seeing these videos of the massacres, basically coming out of Bosnia for the past two and a half years, so I think I'm aware. But he asked a question which, the way I answered that changed my life completely, he said to me, do you really think, you know, that you as a nerdy, bookish boy, basically,

do you think the jihad needs you? So I said to him, no, of course not. Don't be silly. I know the jihad doesn't need it. me, but I need it. I think, basically, that he looked at me, you know, with Rahatha's a surprising look and he said,

basically, I didn't expect this answer, and this answer shows that your motive, you know, is different from what I expected. You are not looking at it as an adventure. You're really looking at it as a journey. Then he said to me, well, I mean, okay, let's talk logistics, you know, basically. How do we include you?

You know, what are the next steps? And then, of course, basically, there were so many other next steps, like getting my passport ready, my money ready and everything and there were quite few hopes to jump through, but I don't want to bore the listeners with it. Yeah, of course. Of course. But I mean, I've been to Bosnia. It's a beautiful place. I lived in former Yugoslavia for a while. I'd really enjoy it. And Bosnia is really beautiful and sort of scenic. And so to, I was there after the war, obviously, but to see the destruction wrought by that. And I can understand why going there would have been kind of magical, because also it's

early days of any sort of jihad stuff, other than Afghanistan, which was in a different part of the world and didn't concern a lot of the same types of people, this must have been like, oh, it's on now. Like, this is the real sort of jihad thing going on, not like learning about it from the men's group, not reading about it anywhere else. And this is sort of early days of people having the internet. So you weren't online watching YouTube videos about this. You went from hearing about it from some guy to, like, being in it. Indeed. And in fact, Basically, I was surprised, extremely surprised by the low number of people who joined. I mean, the total number of volunteers who came to join from all across the Muslim world did not exceed 900.

And the total number of those who died were 340, I think. So basically, we lost about slightly over a third of our number, like in a 35%. So, in fact, you know, when people talking about it, many people think that there were thousands of people who went to join. I was just shocked by how few joined, actually. Hmm. Now, you started to engage in battle, right, with the Serbian army. Is that how this went? I mean, I guess you were fighting the Serbian army, the Croats and probably like Bosnian Serbs.

Well, actually, it was all the Bosnian Serbs. By the time I arrived, it was October of 1994, the alliance between the Croats or the HVO, as we used to call them, the HBO forces, you know, with the Muslims was restored. the alliance was restored, although basically it was an uneasy alliance, but we were fighting on the same side. You know, so arrival there, you know, we were not a separate group to say, per se. We were part of something called the Mujahideen Battalion, which then later became part of the Mujahideen brigade, which is part of the third, you know, Muslim Corps of the Bosnian Armed Forces.

So we used to carry, actually, you know, Bosnian army IDs. Our enemy was the Chetnik militias, who were the Serbian militias, who were the Serbian militias, but they were supported, of course, by the Serbian army proper, but we hardly encountered the Serbian army as proper. They used to cross as volunteers, because they were not supposed to be the aggressors in this war. The Serbs of Bosnia are supposed to be separate, technically speaking, from the Serbs of Serbia.

The Serbian army was not involved directly, but indirectly, of course, they were sending volunteers, they were sending equipment, they were... ...supporting the Chetnik militias with everything they got. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Amin Dean. We'll be right back. And now, back to Aymond Dean on the Jordan Harbinger show.

It's a little bit like maybe what's going on in Ukraine, right? Like, okay, we're not sending in Russian army, even though they totally are. But we're just sort of arming and causing trouble using Russians that happen to live in this area. And, oh, gee, maybe we're shipping a few thousand or a few hundred guys over and giving them equipment. But we're not going to talk about that. Oh, yeah, especially those who are, you know, Ramadan-Qarming. of men from Chechnya and other places, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So the stories you tell on both conflicted, the podcast, as well as in your book, which will link in the show notes, you started to even change your mind about jihad even this early, because I think there was an incident where you'd taken some prisoners, right, or your unit had taken some prisoners? Yeah, almost a year after I arrived. You know, that was my third large military engagement, you know, which was in September of 1995. And we took so many prisoners after a quite decisive military engagement at that time near the town of Zavidavichi. And I think some listeners from the Balkans will understand that

particular reference. There was, I think, roughly 250 prisoners, 80 of them, you know, were taken to a clearing just south of Zavidivichi and where we were encamped. And it was decided there and then these people will have to pay for the crimes of what they did, raping, killing, pillaging, murdering, Bosnian civilians. But of course, the manner of how this so-called justice was administered was extremely repulsive. I remember I had my doubt, basically, that this behavior was right. I was thinking if the Prophet Muhammad was here, would he have sanctioned this? I told you I'm a very annoyingly inquisitive person.

And that even, you know, occurred to me. that autumn of 95, whether this was right or wrong. And, you know, seeing the bloodthirsty nature of people who, just until a year ago, I used to see them as sweet, tender, decent, good people, middle-class people, bespectacled, bookish, nerdy, you know, suddenly basically became people who would use chainsaws to dismember these people alive. How could one year in Bosnia, basically, one year of ugly conflict and these wonderful souls into ugly, bloodthirsty individuals

and at that time, basically, of course, I was caught in the moment. And, you know, I was, you know, just like the podcast name, conflicted, I was myself conflicted, I was looking, you know, at how my friends are becoming ugly, you know, and the way they are becoming more bloodthirsty. But I was looking at those who were being killed

themselves being, you know, basically, you know, guilty of everything that they've done. themselves. And I was only 17. It was just five days or six days before I became 17. Oh my gosh. And I was looking at all of this and I'm thinking, I don't know what to think. You know, I don't know what to think. Like, you know, whether the, you know, this side is wrong or the other side is wrong. I mean, but I thought basically that when I went to sleep that night, all I could think about basically was how could I unsee what I've seen? Yeah, sure. Like a lot of other kids are getting their driver's licenses and you're watching

friends cut people, civilians or not civilians, but either way, other people apart with a chainsaw. Indeed. They were all military. Those who prisoners were all like basically in their uniform, caught in their uniform. But it doesn't matter. I mean, I was in fact, you know, commenting to Khaled, my friend, the one who came with me to Bosnia, I said, what a waste? And he said, he looked at me and he said, what do you mean with a waste? I said, we could have exchanged each and every one of them for 20 civilians who are held in the camps, you know, in the Serbian side. because there are thousands, and this is well documented. I mean, just from Serbenica alone, basically,

they were estimated, you know, 16,000 prisoners. I said there are 16,000 prisoners from Serbenica alone. We could have exchanged these, you know, and I'm sorry to you, I have used this word, pigs. I said, like, you know, we could have exchanged these useless pigs, basically, like, you know, for these civilians, one military for each 20 civilians. And they do it.

They used to do these exchanges, you know, and the Serbs were willing to trade 20 civilians for each of their own military personnel. And I said, isn't a saving a life far more important than exacting revenge in this way? You know, because I had witnessed exchanges before, you know, of prisoners. And I used to see the kind of prisoners they used to walk either elderly women or young women, you know, women from the ages of eight until the age of 80. You know, and I was thinking of them when I saw that massacre took place in front of me. I was thinking exchange would have been far better. Yeah, that's so awful.

I feel like that's just nightmare fuel. having witnessed something like that, of course, and then also knowing that it was completely senseless, which it always would be. After this, I know you went to Azerbaijan and after sort of the Bosnia conflict came to a slow grinding halt. I'm not sure.

You know, it was a sea spire followed by the Dayton Accord, which was signed on 14 December of 1995, because that day I left Bosnia also. So I still remember. I was going to say you do have a photographic memory. How are you remembering all these specific dates? Well, okay, fine.

You will be surprised to know that in many of my flies at the time, I still remember even which seat and which, you know, I sat on the airplanes. I don't know why. It just sticks in my memory because I remember seeing the seat number and seeing the row and it's just strange. Yeah, that is probably useful sometimes and other times completely not a good use of brain power.

But, hey, it sounds like you got plenty more. In Azerbaijan, this story, this interested me because I know you were doing some sort of financial work with charity money. And this is kind of, unfortunately, what we read about in the news a lot is, oh, this Islamic charity is a front for terrorism. And, you know, on the left hand, I'm like, this is a bunch of BS. You're just trying to smear this poor charity. And then on the other hand, it's like, well, that's kind of what you were doing for some charities in Azerbaijan. Can you take us through this? Well, I mean, basically what you said right now, both statements are true.

You know, I know it's strange and counterintuitive, but both statements are true. These charities do not, you know, their headquarters, whether in Saudi Arabia or in the West or in Kuwait or in the UAE, their headquarters did not know better, you know, because they give total delegation to the regional offices in places like Afghanistan, like Azerbaijan, like Georgia and the Caucasus, like the Philippines, Somalia. So what happened is after the disbandment of the jihadist contingents in Afghanistan and in Bosnia in the early and the mid-1990s, what happened is that many of this charitable fieldwork require significant amount of bravery because basically you're going into war zones where lots of risk and danger could happen. Now, many of the ex-jihadists decided, you know what, like, I'm up for this work, I will volunteer. So until then, their motive was not questioned.

Oh, okay, fine. Like, you know, we kill two birds with one stone. These, you know, former jihadists, like, you need employment. Not many people will employ them in their back-home countries in the Arab world or elsewhere. They have the stigma of being militants. So, however, they are willing to do charitable work at a great risk to their own lives because that's what they know best. They know how to go to the field and risk their own lives.

Perfect. So the idea was we use them, we benefit them and benefit of them or from them. So, and that's how the infiltration of charitable organizations took place slowly but effectively by the jihadists, including Aqaeda and others. So, yeah, that's how it happened. So kind of you're divvying up money and what are you doing? You're saying like, oh, we need $10,000 for bandages and medical equipment, but then it just goes to an arms dealer and ships AK-47s to Dagestan.

Well, yes, I mean, basically, and more than that. I mean, so I remember when I arrived in Baku, in Azerbaijan, and I know I talk about lots of many, you know, some funny incidents at the airport there, but I leave it to the listener to read it in the book. But when I arrived there, I remember I was told by the leader of the Arab jihadist, in Chishina that, look, you know, the mountain passes are not safe right now, but, you know, you know what, basically, you're very good at math, you know, you're young students, you know, so how about you help us, basically? You stay in the office of a charity there in Baku, and you

help us with, you know, everything that we need in terms of diverting funds, calculating the cost of, you know, 5,000 tents for refugees, in fact, basically, they're only 2,000, but, you know, just inflate the numbers. And, you know, create. of accounting, really, in order to divert as much money, food, kents, medical supplies, and the cash, of course, for weapons, as well as cash for bribes. We were bribing Azerbaijani officials as if it was no tomorrow to make, you know, everything look legitimate. So there it was my first brush ever with what I call the financial jihad, because I

realized there and then how much food is needed, how much bandages, how much, Antibiotics, morphine, fast-aid kit, you know, medical supplies, walkie-talkies, you know, video cameras, you know, for the purpose, not only of propaganda, but also for the purpose of reconnaissance. Night vision goggles, you know, all of these things, which I never thought about before. You know, because when you are in the front line, all of these things are given. I never, you know, thought about logistics ever. There I've learned all about logistics, financial diversion of funds, how to infiltrate charities, how to lie to headquarters effectively, even when they sent delegations to visit and inspect, we used to do lots of tricks to make them believe or to amplify what we are doing to make sure that they even give more funds. You know, it was a steep learning for me. Four months I was involved in that kind of thing, which is.

You know, served me well in later life, which we will discuss later. Sure, sure, of course. So you kind of do a little tour of duty, so you're in Bosnia, and it's kind of like intro. Then you go to Azerbaijan, you're doing a little bit of, I don't know, money laundering or whatever you want to call it, money laundering light. And now you want to go to Afghanistan for frontline duty. I assume, was this like, I want to die in Afghanistan, or is this kind of like I want to go there because I want to be on the front lines because that's real jihad. Enough with this sort of calculator Microsoft Excel crap. Neither.

No, I tell you why. Neither, yeah. No. I've learned that the real reason, apart from, you know, me being, you know, basically helping with the, what I call the logistical office, back office jihad, was that, okay, this is a new guy, he is coming. Does he know how to make IEDs? No. Does he have good sniper, you know, capability? No. So, yeah, is he, like, in the good urban warfare, I mean, basically, like, no. So, okay, so then he's, entry is no priority to us. So basically let's keep him there and where he could be more useful. I felt a little bit, you know, humiliated a little bit, that, you know, that, wow, even though I spent 14 months in the war in Bosnia, you know, I'm not as militarily experienced enough to join the ranks in Chechnya. So how do I remedy that? And I remembered words said to me by, you know, none other than Khalil Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of non-11, when he met me in Bosnia in October of 95, he was sitting with us, we were a group of six people, and he was talking to us directly.

He said to us that, you know, the war in Bosnia is about to end because of the ceasefire, which will be followed by peace talks. So most likely it will end. Where will you go after that? Are you going to go from one war to another on the fringes of the Muslim world? Because the fringes are weak, because the center is weak, because the center is invaded, occupied, and controlled by the Americans who install puppet regimes, to guarantee the flow of cheap oil, you know what, you should go to Afghanistan, where the training camps are reopening. You know, basically bring your military experience, you know, shape, you know,

to study a new modern warfare, to become good at bomb making, to become good at urban warfare, to become good at assassinations, at kidnapping, at, you know, basically a new kind of war that will never be fought in the mountains anymore, but it will be fought in every urban center from the pole to the pole. So I thought, wow, you know, that was a very good prep to Okhand. You know, so I remember him giving me a piece of paper with a phone number in it, and he said, call this number, tell them it was me Khaled Ashah, that's how we used to know him. Tell them Khaledashch sent you.

And that's it, that's all you, you know, they need to know. And they will take you into a good training camp in Afghanistan, where you will be trained. Now I ignore that, you know, because I wanted to go and die in Chechnya, you know, but then of course, basically four months of doing a boring office work, sending jars of mayonnaise, you know, basically, like, you know, to the Chechen fighters, wasn't exactly basically what I expected Jihad to be. Were you literally sending jars of mayonnaise to them? Why? What's that? Yes, hundreds of KGs of this stuff, man, because mayonnaise, you know, basically in the cool weather, stays longer. That's the first thing. Second thing,

basically they mix it with bread, with rice, with everything, because it's full of protein, you know, full of, you know, basically fat. So it can sustain them in the mountains, in the cold mountains of the Caucasus. So, yes, mayonnaise was one of the mainstables. I like mayonnaise, and that still sounds freaking disgusting to eat like a jar of mail with rice jammed in it, and then it's like, wait, breakfast, lunch, and dinner? Dude, no way. You know what?

Someone said to me, basically, oh, my God, did you find the Russians in Cheshney? I said, yeah, with jars of mayonnaise. Yeah. So I remember, you know, I just pulled that piece of paper out of my luggage, looked at it, gave them a call and said, Khaled Sheikh gave me this number six months ago, can I come? And the answer on the other phone said yes to me. And that man was a current Guantanamo, infamous Guantanamo inmate called Abu Zubeda. So it was Abu Zabedda at the other end of the phone.

And then it was Abu Zabeda a week later who received me in Peshawar Airport, landing there, and sending me to a training camp in Afghanistan, because I got sick and tired of being militarily, ain't useless. When you get to Afghanistan, though, that conflict is pretty complicated. There's a lot of different parties here. Did you go there thinking, all right, I'm going to fight on the front lines, and then you just ended up killing other Muslims? I didn't go to the front lines exactly because of the issue of killing other Muslims. I mean, I just decided to stick to the military camps and that's it. Training, training, training and training. Nothing else. So, you know, I devoted basically my time there in Afghanistan for training.

And I remember I arrived there in early May of 96. And in late July of 96, just, you know, roughly three and a half months later, bin Laden arrived back from Sudan. And of course, by that time, I regretted not arriving to Afghanistan earlier because the training there was serious. I mean, I thought basically that what more could you learn? But of course, basically, there was so much to learn. So I ended up in that training camp,

and many of my fellow trainees would, you know, later go on to become not only members of Al-Qaeda, but many of them senior members of Al-Qaeda. In fact, one of my trainees, one of the fellow trainees, there would go on two years later to be the van driver of the van, that blew up the American embassy in Nairobi in Kenya in 1998. So you've amassed quite a Rolodex of bastards. Yes, indeed. So when Osama bin Laden arrived, he was asking if there are any people from Saudi Arabia in the vicinity.

He was only about 45 minutes drive, you know, from where we were. So 14 of us, you know, basically all of us went into one car. Yes, into one pickup car, all of us. You know, at that time, I really felt what, you know, crammed cattle, would feel basically in the back of a It's like a clown car. You have 14 people in a van? Well, it wasn't a van.

It was a pickup car. So basically, too of us inside. Oh, a pickup truck. Oh, so you're like all in the payload of this pickup truck and there's like five people in the cab. Indeed, yeah. So I remember basically we were in just childishly saying bad and whatever. So we know pretending to be lambs or whatever.

So we went to see Osama al-Ladden. Now many people, I remember that day was, I think, either the 4th or the 5th August of 96. I remember many people were always asking me, what was your first impression when you saw Osama bin Laden? And I know that all of them expect me to say that I saw something great, something magnificent, something overwhelming, you know, all of that.

And I say, well, it was a little bit overwhelming, actually, the first time I met him, because when he arrived back from Sudan, he was a guest of one of the Taliban warlords, and they were all in a compound that, belonged to him. He and the rest of the Al-Qaeda people who fled from Sudan and arrived in Afghanistan, they looked like refugees. You know, suitcases and boxes everywhere, unopened. You know, he came in a... Usually when you see Osama bin Laden, the first image that comes to your mind is a nicely dressed individual in, you know, neat turban, neat robes, in a well iron, no creased,

nothing. What I saw in front of me that day, basically, it was a very creased Arabic head. scarf, you know, an Arabic robe and looked disheveled, you know, basically, and encamped. And all of them looked like that. They looked like refugees. And there were actually, you know, a bunch of refugees who just escaped, you know, with their lives from Sudan just two weeks earlier. What year was this that you met Osama bin Laden? As I said, basically, it was, you know, either the 4th or the 5th August of 1996. Okay, okay. So we're still in the 90s. I'm just making sure, like, what year we're at. because I think a lot of people was, this is such a weird question because it's not exactly,

there's no good way to phrase it. Was Osama bin Laden kind of already a big deal in the jihad scene at that point? Yeah, yeah. I know that's such a weird way to phrase it, but you know what I mean? He was. He was. You know, the prestige was built up from 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, and of course his time in Sudan and his opposition to the Saudi royal family, the fact that he was planning a jihad against

the Americans in Somalia in 1993. So of course, basically, there was already that prestige and aura around him. But seeing him and seeing the other members of Okaida looking like refugees disheveled and looking as if they just escaped with their lives, it was a bit of an underwhelming moment. But you see, that moment was very pivotal. Because when we sat in front of him and his other lieutenants, and he was talking to us and asking us questions,

and of course, basically, some of us told him that we were in Bosnia, and of course basically he asked about some of the people who were killed there, and he knew them personally. And then he went on to talk about why he is back in Afghanistan. So of course, he doesn't want to say basically that, you know, al-Bashir and At Turabi of Sudan, those two duo who ran Sudan, stole his money and kicked him out to please the Americans. Of course, he couldn't say that.

What he was saying is that it was the invisible hand of destiny and prophecy that brought him all the way from Sudan to Afghanistan, So, of course, basically, it was rather, huh? I mean, what do you mean by prophecy? And he launched into talking about the prophecies of the black banners, the army of the black banners. These are texts, you know, hadith texts, basically, in the narrated from the Prophet Muhammad that an army of black banners will be hoisting their flags from Khorasan, which is interpreted to be Western Afghanistan and Eastern Iran.

where they will be marching all the way towards Jerusalem, Arabia, Damascus, whatever, basically liberating the Muslim world, and among them will be the Mahdi, the Messiah figure, you know, of the Muslim world. So to clarify, because I think a lot of people don't know this, so what this essentially means is there is something in the hadith, which is what, like the B sides of the Quran? I know that I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it's like the other stuff that's included but not directly in the Quran, right? Like, how would you explain that in one sentence?

Well, I mean, basically the Quran is the holy book and the Word of God. The Hadith is just collections of the statements and the deeds of the Prophet Muhammad scattered in many different books. Okay. They don't hold the same holiness or authority as the Quran. For sure. Got it. Okay. And then so in that set of books, there's a prediction that there's going to be some sort of like fake Islamic BS that turns out, like,

like ISIS, where they're pretending to be speaking holy, but they're really just preaching violent crap that you should ignore. Yeah, but actually, you know, what he is trying to say is that we are the army of the black banners that will actually be the army of the truth, the army of the jihadist, the liberation, that the Mahdi, the Messiah figure for both Sunni and Shia Muslims, you know, will rise with us and, you know, we will be the paving the way for his return. Of course, now, you know, in later years when I devoted much of my, you know, a spare time as much as I can to the research of these prophecies and I've wrote, you know, basically a small research paper which only basically like, you know, I give to certain intelligence agencies around the world.

But anyway, you know, but it's a 90,000 word research paper concluded that these were, without doubt, fabrications, you know, basically written just 90 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad for the sake of political expediency to pave the way, you know, for a rebellion by one dynasty against another, because all the narrators, you know, of those prophecies then got handsome jobs and rewards, you know, in the new dynastic empire, you know, basically, that were built upon the rubble, you know, of the previous dynasty. So all of this, basically, was just load of crap. It's the con. It's the biggest con, you know, being published. because already 1300 years ago, an army of black banners coming out of Khorasan, hoisting black flags, you know, marched all the way to exactly the same directions, you know, these, you know, armies were supposed to go.

And they did all the conquering and all of that, and they even had a leader among them called the Mahdi. And then after that, you know, these narrators who poisoned the minds of the people at the time with these prophecies, you know, basically got all these handsome rewards. That's it, done, that's it. But nonetheless, the damage is done. These prophecies seeped into the books of Hadith, shaping the messiah or the messianic narrative within Shia and Sunni Islam together, promising conflicts in Iraq, in Yemen, in Levant, in Syria,

in the Magrib, in North Africa, and in Khorasan, which is Afghanistan and Western Iran, Eastern Iran, sorry. So in reality, these became self-fulfilled prophecies by the fanatics from both sides who are trying to fulfill prophecies that actually are fabrications for political expediency. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Amon Dean. We'll be right back. After the show, we've got a preview trailer of our interview with Navy SEAL and veteran Jock Willink, like you've never heard him before. So stay tuned for that after the close of the show. Thanks for listening and supporting the show.

You supporting our advertisers keeps this show going. If you want to see all the deals in one place, go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. We've also got worksheets for today's episode. The link to that is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. Now for the rest of Part 1 with Amin Dean. Sort of clarify here,

there's predictions that there'd be like fake Islamic armies that rose a black flag and fake jihad. And even that turned out to be a big forgery just for political expediency. So the text that we're looking at here has been manipulated a lot to get people to believe certain things, including that, you know, jihad means violent war against everybody who the current sort of teacher wants it to be. When you're in Afghanistan, you said you got surveillance training. What kind of stuff are you learning?

I know the first of all, when you're there, isn't anyone like, hey, who are these random foreign fighters? Or were you pretending to be something else? Well, we always were dressed like the locals. And we never looked different from the locals once we had done. dressed like them, you know, because we were always in Pashtun areas, you know, this is one of the biggest ethnicities in Afghanistan. So we deliberately learned, you know, the language of the other ethnicity in Afghanistan, which is the Tajik's, you know, which is Farsi, or as we call it there in Afghanistan, Dari, it's a form of Persian. The idea is, so if we are asked questions by the

local Pashtuns, we just reply in Dari. So they think, basically, that we are from the north. And, you know, at that time, remember, the Afghan population were the most simple-minded people you will ever encounter on the planet at the time. I'm talking about the Afghans who were there, not the Afghans who traveled abroad and became well-learned and educated in Western or Far East universities. No. So when we tell them we are who we are, basically, they accept. We are from the north or we are basically from Iran or we are from Pakistan. And so they just accept it. However, those who are educated among them, especially those who go to religious seminaries and learn Arabic, they catch the Arabic accent in our diary and tell us, no, you're Arabic.

But then we don't fear these people because they're already supposed to be sympathetic towards us. Right. Okay. I thought maybe you were saying to the locals, like, oh, we're studying it at Islamic school. You know, we're just scholars. You can ignore us. That kind of thing. No, they knew what we were up to.

And of course, basically, you know, a year after I arrived, you know, the Taliban took over almost all of Afghanistan. And so we became part of their dominion. All of our camps, all of our training facilities were now under their control. So the locals more or less viewed us as the foreign Taliban. You got some sort of weird torture training. And one that I remember was taping people's penis shut and forcing them to drink a bunch of water. I got to admit, that would definitely work on me. Like, that would be the most uncomfortable thing.

Well, we never practiced it, if it's it a meme, but we were told, you know, that, okay, so there is a course called security, which you are dealing with counter interrogation, interrogation, surveillance, intelligence gathering, all these kind of things. So one of the things we were told, okay, how to extract information from people in a way that doesn't leave a mark, because we were told that you can't torture people in a way that leave Mark or break a bone. so we were told but yeah but what tickled them until basically like you know they tell you what you know what we want to know and of course basically the answer was no we came up with an ingenious idea that you know doesn't leave a mark or break a bone but it will make anyone talk so we were all curious they said okay tell us so they said okay you know if you have the suspect and make sure basically that you know you make them a little bit hungry you know skip few meals so they will

ask you for food then ask them what is it that they want So whatever they want to give them You know if you are somewhere where they serve burgers and pizza Give them that So give them as much as they can eat So once they eat they will become thirsty You know, okay, don't give them anything to drink for a while But then once they really become thirsty

Then you bring a big bottle of water cold You know sweating from the outside It looks so appealing Let them drink to their heart delight Once they fully drank the water Of course basically they will soon need the toilet So what you do, tie their hands to the back, you know, basically, and then pull the clothes down, basically.

Take a cellotape or a duct tape, whatever, basically, and, you know, block the urinal tract, basically, and make sure they can't pass. And that's it. Just watch them tell you exactly everything that is in their heart and their mind, you know, basically, and that's the only way you can extract a confession. And then they told us well, this is very humane, because, you know, you are not leaving a lasting mind.

Mark, you know, you're not breaking any bone. You're not basically like, you know, even leaving any bruise. Yeah, you're leaving a mental scar, though, man. I think we all have one of those stories. I'm like, I had to pee on this plane and the bathroom was broken and it was six more hours in the flight. And I was just like, what happens if I stab myself? We have to make a landing, right? So, well, you see, so basically, like, I mean, you know, these kind of courses, no way.

And of course, basically, they used to give us lots of. useful tips about how to gather information. They used to tell us the taxi drivers are the best place to start with if you're landing in any city because they are eager to talk, they are eager to please, and they drive all over the place. You know, they meet all sorts of people,

rich and poor, foreign and domestic, oh, everyone. So if you ask them, where do American, you know, basically tourists go for fun? Where do British businessmen go for to congregate? where do Australian, you know, team players basically, you know, go to party. They will tell you everything. So, you know, your starting point is always, you know, taxi driver.

So I still remember, you know, this piece of training, you know, from my time with the Kaida. How did you get into bomb making and poison making? I mean, this is like a jump. And you've got tons of stories. I'll go over some of these in the clothes. We don't even have time to get to everything. Like, you went to the Philippines and you were fighting in the jungle.

You just got around. Eventually, you get to bomb and poison making. Like, what's this all about? How did that happen? It's a weird major. Well, you know, after encountering Osama of Luddn, you know, basically, I didn't join him immediately. It took me a year to join al-Qaeda. So in August of 97, I joined them.

In September 97, I swore allegiance to him. And I remember, basically, he told me that you have an aptitude for math and science, you know, which shows. And so, therefore, basically, we want you to try. with the famous master bomb maker in Afghanistan. His name is Abu Khab, a former Egyptian army officer, specialist and explosives. So I went to join him, and there of course I spent 11 months with him, and the course was like this, you know, how to make bombs from scratch, from the beginning, and then you progress into poisons, then into chemical weapons, then into biological weapons.

So it's a course that lasts roughly 11 months. I remember my first day on the course. The course is only attended by four. That's it. No more than four to make sure that, you know, to limit the number of mistakes because why? Yeah, you don't want the fifth guy who like doesn't listen well in the back. Like, no, no, you just mix it all together at the same time, right? And then it's how everybody goes.

Yeah, I remember him, you know, telling us this very ominous in the warning. He said, the art of bomb making is extremely fine. Your first mistake is going to be your last. Remember that. Like, sorry, I was checking my phone. I think this one goes first, right? Yes, and then boom, and that's it. So I was, of course, fascinated.

I was telling him, I was telling my instructor, I was saying, I was studying chemistry, you know, just until I was 60. I was studying chemistry in school. Why didn't they teach us this? This is exactly what chemistry should be. Yeah. You know, blowing up things.

And, you know, I got my taste. I remember just five days after I joined, our instructor was experimenting with how to build a megabomb. So he was experimenting with a 1.2 tons of explosives. And he set it off, you know, basically the windows in the four kilometers away shattered in the village, you know, four kilometers away. And just to show you basically how. And they thought some power somewhere dropped a mini-nuclear bomb. So this is the first experience of a massive bomb. And then after that, we went on to build even bigger ones.

So for me, basically, it was something that fascinated me. The theory of it, the making of it, and then, of course, progressing into poisons. You know, so you learn more about the human anatomy and metabolism and, you know, how poisons are either ingested, injected, or basically simply by touch. This is when I understood how heroin and nicotine are extremely poisonous. This is when I understood that don't smoke, don't take drugs seriously. These things really, we can make poisons out of them that are extremely lethal. And then we moved into, of course, chemical gases, chemical weapons.

And of course, basically, we had an understanding of their uses during not only First World War, but even during the Iraq-Iran War and how Saddam used them against the Kurds and the North of Iraq, understanding their application, even coming up with a delivery mechanism that is easy for individuals even, basically, to do once they master basic chemistry and basic engineering. Then we moved into biological weapons and how it is difficult to produce and control and preserve and deliver and difficulties and the challenges all around that. So why it's all theory, but it was there when I started hearing from my fellow trainees. one of them is quite famous actually. His name is Muazzaan. He is the mastermind of the

Bardot Museum attack in Tunisia in, I think, 2017, I think, or 2016. And also the Suisse Beach attack, which also killed 38 British holidaymakers in Tunisia. And because he became a senior leader for ISIS in North Africa. So I heard him at that time talking about how we use these chemical devices in cinemas and trains, you know, in the subway of New York or anywhere else, basically, like, you know, where, you know, we could have people in confined spaces. So all of these intentions basically unsettled me. I mean, you know, I thought basically we're going to fight against military, not against civilians. Right, like you're in your 20s, or you're, right? How old are you at this point? 19. You're not even 20 years old. You go to this

sort of wholly cause, this higher power. Meanwhile, you're gassing jackrabbits to test chemical weapons and making poison and you're trying to figure out how to kill people on their way to work or kids watching Disney movies. Like, there must have been some point where you're just like, what the hell is going on here? Like, none of this is what I signed up for. You know, terrorists just want to create chaos because I guess people will crave law and order. Is that the idea behind this at this point?

Well, of course. Because basically suddenly, you know, I thought that the nature of the war is changing that, you know, from fighting in the mountains of Bosnia. I mean, basically we are talking about gassing people in cinemas and, theaters and nightclubs and trains. Of course, that was unsettling, but I thought basically this is just the ranting of one insane individual. So, you know, I thought

I will continue with the course. Why not? Like, I mean, you know, just he's one insane individual. Then the news came, of course, basically, after 11 months of spending it there at the camp, that the Al-Qaeda carried out its first attack, serious attack, against American interests, you know, around the world.

It was the attack against the American embassies in Nairobi in Kenya and Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. At the beginning, you know, everyone was jubilant in the camps. They were firing bullets into the air, you know, in celebration and shouting Allaha Akbar and feeling elated and exhilarated. And so I asked, you know, basically, what is it about these two locations that was so important? And they said, oh, they were the largest CIA stations in East Africa. Of course, you know, basically, I had a radio with me.

I was always listening to Kuwait radio. As you know, Kuwait radio is quite sympathetic to Americans in general, because of course they were liberated by the Americans just a few years earlier from Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War. But I listened to them and they were saying, no, it was American embassies. Twelve American diplomats were killed, but alongside them, 220-plus Africans, innocent Africans,

were killed, who were at the wrong time, at the wrong place, and 5,000 were wounded, 150 or 150, of them were blinded for life because the devices were full of shrapnel's. And then when I learned that it was a close friend of mine, Abu Abdullah al-Macki, the one who went with me to see Osama bin Laden two years earlier, was the one who drove, you know, the van. I started to have doubts. It's different when you hear about the theory and the plan and then see it happening,

being executed. And that's when you start to think, is that what I signed up for? Right, like, because you'd killed a bunch of Serbs for doing pretty much the exact same thing to civilians and now, and you're on the wrong continent. Like, Africa, what the hell you do? Like, what are you guys doing? Many, many questions came to my mind, including the justification. Was it justified or not? And I was told it was justified. But then the religious justification that they came up with was extremely bogus because it's based on a fatwa, a religious edict that was issued 800 years earlier. In regard to the Mongol invasions of the Muslim world, because they were saying, look, if the enemy is hiding within civilian areas, we have the right to attack. But the fatwa was consigning the Mongols using Muslim prisoners to push the Mongol siege towers towards the walls of the next Muslim city they want to sack.

So the urgent question from the Muslim defenders against the Mongols was, are we allowed to kill these Muslim prisoners being coerced by the Mongols to push the siege towers? And the answer was yes, if you don't kill them, the Mongols will kill them anyway. They are dead anyway, because if you don't kill them, you will be killed. So it was a matter of life and death. It was a matter of desperate situation. Yet I can't recall the American embassies in Nairobi or Tanzania pushing siege towers towards Mecca or Medina. Right.

They're like waiting to get a visa for their, to go visit their grandma. or something like that. Exactly. Exactly. There was no life and death situation. There was no imminent danger, imminent attack that justifies what Aqa'ad did. So I, you know, felt that the twisting of the religious principles, you know, was ugly, you know, in order to justify this act. And so I started to have in my mind that, one, I don't want to be part of a group that is on the wrong side of history. I started to see that. I started to see that. I started to see that there was. will be massive consequences for what happened. We are no longer just a bunch of, you know, freedom fighters, you know, Islamic version of that,

like, you know, roaming around trying to defend people. You know, we are now bona fide terrorists, you know, and I don't want to be part of that. I felt basically that maybe I stayed in and in because I didn't have any choice, but now I have a choice. I don't want to go. I don't want to stay. I'm going. So it took me four months. It's not like, you know, I woke up one day and I decided.

all that's it, I'm going to leave Al-Qaeda and become a spy. Of course, it wasn't like that. I mean, basically, I wanted to go back to the Gulf, go back to Qatar, because it was nearby where I used to live, go to university, continue my education, become a history teacher, because that was my naive idea. Well, much to the relief of my would-be students, it never happened. I was arrested the second day after I arrived to Qatar. Of course, I told Al-Qaeda that it was a medical issue, and I had actually, in the previous

year, had a serious medical condition that necessitated going to Qatar for treatment. It was both a malaria and typhoid coming at the same time. I was bedridden for nearly a month. I lost half of my weight and nearly died. So remember the doctors there in Qatar telling me you have to come back a year later to make sure we run tests that your liver is not damaged forever, basically, because. because, you know, my liver was, you know, almost 50, 60 percent is normal size. Wait, what did that happen?

Do you think it was from any of those poisons you were making? No, it was the onset of typhoid and malaria at the same time. Oh, typhoid and malaria at the same time. Okay, yeah, I could see that causing a little liver stress. Yeah. You know, so I told them basically that I was, I'm supposed to go back to, you know, to Qatar for the medical checkups and everything. And of course, basically, they already have, you know, the internal, you know,

from Okada, we have our own doctors. So basically, they have the report and everything. of course you can go. You know, there is no question. So the idea is I'm going but not coming back. You know, so once I land in Qatar, that's it. Goodbye. I will send them a message saying, oh, the Qatari authorities, you know, confiscated my passport.

I'm now not allowed to leave the country. You know, I don't know what to do. So, you know, gradually disengage. That was your exit strategy. Yeah, I got to go back for medical treatment and then you're just going to peace out. Yeah. So it will be, you know, gradual disengagement. But of course, basically, it wasn't anything.

But I was arrested the next day. So I remember, and I remember before I, you know, when I was, you know, at the airport, before leaving Pakistan, I was in the prayer room in the airport and I was, you know, praying something called the guidance prayer. You know, I was, of course, deeply religious at the time. I said to the Lord that I put my destiny in my life, I put my destiny in my life in your hand. Wherever you take me, I'll follow. I don't know where I'm going. Therefore, basically, your guidance is, you know, what will shine, you know, the light. And so when I was arrested and taken to the state security building, I remember basically at the

beginning the atmosphere was so intimidating, you know, because of course they knew how I was. They had information that I was coming. They knew about my association with people like Abu Zubeda and many other members of the Qaeda. And of course, when they started asking the questions in this very brisk, you know, and intimidating manner, you know, do you deny that you are an associate of Abu Zubair? No. So I remember there were several of them. Look. each other thinking, okay, that's the answer we expected. We expected denial. Oh, no.

Who are you talking about? Who's the of Zubeda? But of course, I wasn't in the mood to deny anything. So they said, do you deny that you remember of a cauda? Nope. Do you deny that, you know, you met Osama bin Laden? Oh, yeah, I did meet him. Okay. And then they asked more questions, and then sit, wait a minute, like, why are you so candid? Yeah, what's going on here? Like, we were asking you if you denied it

because we expected you to deny it and then we were going to beat you off. Like, you're taking all the fun out of this, man. Exactly. They looked a little bit flabbergasted and disappointed at the same time. And so I told them exactly the story. I told them, you know, in all honesty, you know, this is exactly what it is. And so I remember it was dark at their side, light in my side, so I can't see them exactly properly. You know, I see just basically like, you know, the expressions in their faces, but it was dark their side. They all whispered to each other something and then they all left the room. Then when they came back, they switch off. the intense light, they switched off the normal lights, and they all came to me, shook my hands, and some of them hugged me. And they were saying, basically, well done. You know, we truly believe you, like, you know, well done.

And, you know, for the next nine days, like, you know, I was their guest. They brought a proper bed, you know, basically. Like, I mean, you know, the Sheraton Hotel was just next door. So they used to bring all the three meals from the Sheraton Hotel. And of course, what followed basically was just discussions about everything and debriefings, and I was forthcoming and honest about everything, basically giving them the valuable intelligence that they wanted from the beginning

about Abu Zubeda and his role in the Paris metro bombings of 1995 and, you know, his picture, because I knew where to find his picture, I knew where to find his bank account, I knew where to find a photocopy of his passport, the passport he was using. So, you know, there were valuable, you know, Intel, basically that I was able to give them, and these questions were on behalf of the French intelligence. because the Qataris and the French were very close at that time in terms of defense and security. So by the end of it, they said to me, they told me the Qataris were very candid.

They said, look, we were talking to you. Everything was recorded and it was basically streaming life to a room here within the building, you know, where there are French intelligence officers there. And they are extremely keen in recruiting you, but we are blocking them at the moment. Because we want to give you the choice. What is your choice? I immediately said, I want to stay here. I want to stay in Doha, in Qatar.

I want to, you know, go to university, do this, you know, and become a teacher in the future. They said, there is a problem. And I said what? They said, you know, the entire country is 250,000 people, you know, basically. Oh, yeah. So, like, if you're in this small country and you come out and leave out, like, you're going to run into your old homies, for sure. They said every day, you will encounter them every day. You know, there are a handful of mosques only.

there are a handful of shopping in a places, you'll end up meeting them regularly. So, you know, you need to think bigger here. I mean, so we could facilitate you, you know, basically being protected by a bigger agency than ours. You know, and I said who? They said, well, there is a French, there are the Americans, and of course, basically, there is the British. So the French I said, no, I'm not going to learn another language entirely, you know, so it's going to be a very uphill struggle for me to. really absorb French, learn French culture and just take it like, it isn't easy for me.

They said, okay, fine. Still a lazy 20-something year. You can't take, you might have gone around the world fighting for Al-Qaeda, but you kind of like, man, learn French. Ugh, nah. Indeed. So, and for me, to be honest, basically, I find the French and the French language, I'm palatable, but please, you know, no, no offense, no offense.

And I said, as for the Americans, I just, you know, last August, I survived their retaliatory attack by cruise missiles against our camps. I find it extremely difficult to work with someone who just a few months ago, you know, pressed a button to kill me. So it's still raw, still recent. Yeah, I'm still a little sore about that cruise missile attack, guys. Sorry. Indeed. So the Brits by process of elimination, then. Indeed, it was a process of elimination. And because for me, I was told, look, you need to be protected by a bigger agency.

And I said, yeah, but I don't want to be a spy. They said, no, no, no, no, no. It's going to be a debriefing and that's it. Then you can go to university. So, of course, even then, I didn't imagine I will become a spy. I was thinking it's all just debriefing. And I will be giving them, of course, valuable intelligence about the Al-Qaeda's WMD program. You know, the poison.

The poisons and the bombs. Yeah, exactly. I will give them the entire thing. You know, I'm aware of, in most of the camps, locations, I can point them in the map, I have a photographic memory. You know, so I thought basically that will, you know, basically, first of all, ease my guilt about being part of that awful organization. That's one, so I can atone for being part of it. And the second thing is, this will give me a passage to a normal life. Oh, how naive I was, but I was still clinging to the idea that I'm going back to normal life.

life. And once I boarded that plane from Doha to London Heathrow, yeah, I was going into anything but a normal life. Well, I want to talk about your life as a spy in the next part, but thank you for coming on the show. I'm excited for part two. Definitely. Okay, there's so much more to this. So don't forget to tune into part two next time. That'll be up in a couple days for you all. Man, I'm telling you, this is just the beginning. Great big thank you to Aymand Dean, his podcast is called Conflicted. We're going to link to that in the show notes. His podcast is less story-based, more analysis. Also in the show notes, there are worksheets for each episode so you can review what you've learned here from Aymand Dean. We've got transcripts for each episode just in case you all want

to read a podcast. Those can be found in the show notes as well. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people in our six-minute networking course. It's free. It's always going to be free. That's at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Dig the well before you're thirsty people. Build that network before you think you're going to need it. That's what spies do. And look at how glamorous their lives are, right? Doing a show in their underwear with a kid knocking on the door.

These drills are designed to take just a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. I got to tell you, compound returns, folks. Find it all for free at jordanharbinger.com slash course. By the way, most of the guests you're hearing on the show, they're in the course. Join us. You'll be in smart company.

Reach out to Aiman Dean. He's going to love hearing from you. And if you're into building relationships, I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Jordan Harbinger, but more importantly, let's be real. We're all adults here. I'm on LinkedIn. I post more there than anywhere else right now.

This show is created in association with podcast one. This episode was produced by Jen Harbinger, engineered by J.Sanderson, show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty, music by Evan Viola. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. And yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a therapist.

I'm not a spy, and if I was, I wouldn't be able to tell you. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's interested in espionage, terrorism, terror finance, global affairs, share this thing, man. I hope you find something great in every episode, but please do share the show with those you love. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen.

And we'll see you next time. And remember, part two coming up in a few days. Tune in. As promised, here's a preview of our interview trailer with Jocko Willick. Leadership is the most important on the battlefield. Every characteristic that you can have for a leader can be taken to an extreme. Even the most important characteristic that I talk about all the time, which is humility. You've got to be humble as a leader. You've got to always look, okay, how can I improve?

Why, I need to listen to other people. Well, as a leader, you can actually be too humble where you don't stand up when somebody's telling you to do something that you don't think is right, but you're like, hey, I'm humble. so I'm going to do it anyways. Well, if you don't think it's right, you actually shouldn't do it. Every positive characteristic can be taken to the extreme that it becomes a negative. And that is why, as a leader, you have to be balanced. Be humble or get humbled is a term that I love.

Can you tell us what this means? The nature of the world is if you're not humble, you are going to get humbled. So that's a good attitude to have. And it's a good attitude to always think, you know, I need to stay humble. but, and this is the dichotomy, this doesn't mean that you're completely passive. And there are times, as humble as you should be, there are times when you need to stand up and say no. You know, Laif and I joke about it, sometimes the most we get to sleep was when we were in the field. There's a funny picture of myself and Dave Burke on a rooftop.

It's probably, it looks like it's about 11 o'clock in the morning, and we're both sitting there. We're both asleep. We're both sitting there. It's 110 degrees, and we're both asleep. but clearly this was the first time we had to rest in 24 or 48 hours. And you learn to sleep anywhere on concrete and floors and stairwells and whatever else. For more with Jocko, including why we should stop being the easy button for those we manage and lead, and the concept of leadership capital, how to build it, when to use it, and when not to use it.

Check out episode 93 right here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way.

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