The Jordan Harbinger Show - 391: Help! My Ex Hacked My Entire Home! | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: August 14, 2020

Your ex hacked all of your electronics when you were together, and now they spy on you from inside your own house! What can you do to fight back? This and more on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/391 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Your ex hacked all of your electronics when you were together, and now they spy on you from inside your own house! What can you do to defend yourself? [Thanks  to Corbin Payne, Esq. for helping with this one!] How do you stop caring about what other people think about you? While you've never filed for bankruptcy and you're currently on top of your payments, you have a lot of debt. Should you be concerned if a new employer wants to check your credit -- and do they have the right to as a condition for hiring you? The good news: you made a great online connection with someone you'd like to date. The bad news: they think COVID is a hoax and refuse to wear a mask for your peace of mind. Should you pursue a relationship with this person, or is this enough of a red flag to just move on? You were let go from a small company during your probationary period due to "culture clash." How can you stay in touch with the coworkers you did get along with, and what do you say to recruiters and hiring managers who ask why things didn't work out? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. And the rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers, and performers. For a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests and popular topics, go to Jordan Harbinger.com, and we will hook you up. This week on the show, we had Ray Dalio.

He is the Steve Jobs of Investing. This was a truly fascinating interview with one of the most amazing minds. in the business world today. The episode is in two parts. We had a lot to talk about. I think it almost runs two hours. So make sure you have a listen to that if you're interested in the markets, China, where investing is going, what he thinks is going to happen with the economy in the next few years. I mean, the guy is brilliant. The scoreboard says so. So find that in the podcast feed. As far as questions on the show, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails as concise as you can. Include a descriptive subject line that makes our job,

job a whole lot easier. A lot of people ask why the Neil Brennan Epp had bleeps in it. It was a radio edit. We should have had a podcast edit. Sorry to everyone who wrote to me and loves hearing F-bombs, which is apparently a lot of you. The feedback on this episode was otherwise pretty good. So if you want to take a peek into the mind of a brilliant comedy writer and creator, check out our episode with Neil Brennan from a few weeks back. All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jordan. I have this black hat problem with my ex-boyfriend. In addition to all of my electronics being compromised, he is entering my home when I'm not here. I've changed the locks several times, but he has cameras inside the house. In fact, he sent me a video of me leaving for work

from inside my house, along with the entire ride to work. I used to use a major home security company, but apparently their system is a joke. I just purchased a Google Nest outside camera system, but I'm wondering if there is a security firm or place that you can recommend to get the bugs and cameras out of my house. My local police department has been useless. By the way, I'm getting the Fortigate firewall, can you recommend a good VPN service that doesn't require me to consistently put in a code on all of my devices? Signed, fed up. So this is a legit wild one. I rarely hear anything like this. I really enjoyed this question in that, of course, this is truly someone who needs help and there are psychological and technical aspects to this question. So

strap in, I've actually got a lot to say on this one. The problem with cases like this is that it sounds paranoid, it sounds crazy, people don't want to believe you, and knowing what I know about security, knowing what I know about hacking, which is sort of, I would say minimal from a first person perspective, but I've given plenty of talks at conferences and things like that with these types of info security folks, many of whom I reached out to for help with this question. So this to me was actually scary in how real this seems and how common this is. And police often have the exact same reaction, which is whatever, there's nothing we can do. And also, you're probably just imagining a lot of this stuff.

A lot of people who get hacked, they'll turn the temperature up in the house to like 88 degrees. They'll kind of gaslight you thinking like, why is it so hot? What's going on? They'll try and turn your alarm on and off. They'll trigger the alarm. Prove what he's doing, and you've got enough to get a restraining order. But you need the cops to do this, not necessarily a lawyer unless you want to sue him. you do need to prove he was in your house without your permission.

So the question then becomes, does he own the house? Does he pay for rent or not? Is he on the lease? Does he help with bills? If he does, this can hurt your case. Sadly, the law is often not that helpful with these things. The police don't want to intervene if you used to live together and now he's entering and doesn't have permission

because they're going to think it's a lover's spat and not a legit legal issue. Unfortunately, in order for you to get a protection order a lot of the time, he's got to do something bad, and by then, of course, it's too late. A system, security system or otherwise is never more secure than its weakest link. And a good guess is that some desktop computer or laptop within your house has been compromised. So maybe he installed a key logger on one of your devices. Once you've gained access to a desktop or laptop on the local network, especially a desktop that's on 24-7, you could monitor that to collect passwords,

security certificates, access to other devices on the local. network regardless of how secure they are. My guess is that the weakest link is probably you, and I don't mean that in any insulting way. Somebody else with access to the local network, it's usually people. If you're on a Mac, take your computers to the Apple store. They love securing computers there. Make that genius bar appointment. They want to perpetuate the idea, the false idea, that Apple computers are unhackable or very secure. So whenever you take your computer, even if you're like six years after warranty, the people at the Genius Bar, they will wipe spyware off the computer. After you get your computer wiped, don't use your own Wi-Fi for this.

Go to a friend's house, change all your passwords from there. Use a password manager like Dash Lane or one password. Make sure that your computer has your passwords, your phone does, has your passwords saved in an encrypted database. Don't reuse passwords. Don't use passwords. Don't use passwords that are easily guessable, that's an obvious security advice. But turn off Wi-Fi entirely in your house, if you can, even for just a few weeks, see if you can borrow your neighbors. Alternatively, any phone plan, specifically these unlimited plans, you can tether to the phone. Google this. You can use your phone as your internet connection. And if you're not streaming a bunch of stuff, if you're just checking your email, you're not going to use a lot of your data.

And when using your computer, you can use 4G to surf the web, not Wi-Fi. It is far more secure than Wi-Fi, if he's got any sort of basic attacks going on. Or use Ethernet and hardwire your home office. This doesn't solve the problem, but once you wipe the computers and if you're not using Wi-Fi, you've made yourself a harder target. You can use a VPN, but it's not really going to help you in this situation. Only after making sure your devices are wiped and secure

and your network is secure is a VPN going to help. Otherwise, you're just the weakest link again. I would also ask your neighbors if you can buy a nest can, or some sort of other security camera and put it in their window facing your house. Because he might be expecting devices in your house. He might even see them pop up on the network if he owns your network. But if it pops up at your neighbor's house, he probably won't notice. And you can aim them at your doors and your windows.

That way, when he breaks in again, he might think he's all clever deleting the footage that he has stored in the cloud if there is any footage or setting off the alarm and setting it and resetting it, whatever he's doing. But if your neighbor's got him on their camera, that you can see the footage of entering your house, you've got him. That can help you get a protection order that much faster. Tell your neighbors, if he's breaking into my house, he may also break into yours, help me catch him if they resist. Otherwise, just leave it alone. If they're super nice and friendly, no need to scare him. But if they're like, well, we don't want to get involved,

then you can let them know what's in it for them, which is, hey, you know, if he's coming into my house, I don't see why he can't come into your house to get to me, possibly at night. We don't know when he's coming in. Anyway, I want to put this camera on your window, so how much of a problem is this going to be? He may try to break in again once his spyware stops working. So if you wipe everything on your computer, make sure you've got the other camera system running, running on the neighbor's Wi-Fi, CCTV, whatever it is, because he might go, oh crap, my key logger's gone off her computer, and her passwords have been changed. I need to go install another one. That might trigger another break-in. So you can catch him at that time. I might also,

with a friend for a few days, if you think it's going to trigger a break in and it could get nasty, you'll then have what you need to take to the cops for a protection order. We're talking of someone who had full access to everything. If this guy has any actual hacking skills, it isn't just what we'd call a script kitty or is running some basic software to run your computer or network. If he has any sorts of skills, he might have installed backdoors on any device on the network. He might have coded something that antivirus isn't going to pick up. A firewall or VPN. will not fix anything. I know I sort of mentioned that before, but either you have to replace your devices or you have to have a specialist with good computer knowledge look into this, because he could

have put something on your router, depending on what kind of router you have. I mean, it's just not worth worrying about. He has several ways to get access, and if you were to replace the devices one by one, he might be able to regain access to each new unit. So don't just get a new router and then leave all your cameras and all your cloud servers and all your CCTV stuff, whatever you've got, and all your computer is unsecured. He's just going to go back in, again, if he's got technical know-how, and use one device to gain access to everything else. So you have to bear that in mind. This could get expensive. That's why I just recommend tethering. That will solve a lot of the problems, but you still have to secure your devices from spyware. I would also absolutely reinstall

or replace everything on the computers that are on your network, not just your main laptop. I'm being overly cautious here, but if for some reason he's got the intention of hacking your home, if I were doing it, I would have hacked into as many devices, as many computers as possible, and installed backdoors everywhere. By hacked in, I mean, if he's going in your house, he could literally just put a USB flash drive and run a program and done. He doesn't need to be any kind of IT genius. This is something I could teach any member of my family how to do in 20 minutes. It doesn't matter if you buy the most expensive security door for the front entrance,

if you leave the kitchen door open. And I'm saying this because of the devices, because of the network. Fortigate, it sounds like you ask the IT guy at work. It's an enterprise-level firewall, but it's not going to do the job if he's in your house already. And speaking of in the house, Gabriel, the thing that freaked me out about this the most

was that he went into her car, most likely, and got the video off the SD card because she said, oh, he showed me my ride to work. Most dash cams, they're not connected to the cloud. They're not streaming the video most of the time. Look, if your dash cam is doing that, then okay, he's got something going on your dash cam, or most likely has access to your cloud storage because you use a password there that he now has. But most cameras aren't doing that in the car.

That means he went into her car, opened up the camera, took the memory card out, copied the footage, and then sent it to her to scare her. Yep. That's really psycho. Terrifying. Terrifying. Yeah. That's next level.

I mean, that means that not only does he have access to all these different spaces, he has a hell of a lot of time to spend doing this. Yeah. And that is driving some kind of strange pleasure from scaring her with the footage. Right. We're talking a lot about the technical aspect of this, and I'm glad we are because she needs some help in that department, but I just need to acknowledge, like, this is exceptionally scary. Like, this is next level terrorizing stuff that we're talking about. Before I overload everyone with tech, if I haven't already, a couple more things. You can also grab a nanny cam and put it in the house, one of those offline-only, you know,

light switch with camera in it. Don't order it from your Amazon account. If he's got access to your Amazon account, he's just going to see what you ordered and look for that in the house. Oh, dude, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. That's really good advice. I thought about that.

Because I would have 100% jumped on my Amazon account and just bought all the stuff. Yeah. Me too. But I remember when I was doing some security and social engineering exercises, one of the main things I looked for was stuff people ordered on Amazon. because you can use it as a conversation piece, like, oh, man, you know, I just got these, like, awesome Rayban sunglasses and people would be like, I just bought those too. What a coincidence? And now I've got, I'm using that to generate rapport. Or I'm saying, you know, oh, this other thing

wasn't working for me. Oh, oh, I just got one. What was wrong with it? That's more social engineering. But this is kind of like, okay, you're going to go on Amazon and order something. Great. I'm looking in your email. I see the receipt come in. I'm looking at your purchase history. Oh, mantle top teddy bear with camera in it? Great. Let me look and see what this thing is. I'll just look for that in the house and steal it when I'm there next time, breaking in.

Also, if he's breaking in and the alarm is not working, that means there's an unsecured entrance on her property, Gabriel, which is really scary because he either removed a window sensor from the alarm system, which would allow him to go in and out, or he's like, oh, the basement windows never locked. Which is really scary because, of course, now he can get in and out, but so can anyone who finds that. So you could be sitting in your house

and some rando person could find that he's left a basement window propped open and not properly secured. He doesn't obviously care about your safety, so he doesn't really care if somebody else breaks in. He figures no one else will see it. I also reached out to a real lawyer, as one does. Again, I can't give you legal advice.

I'm not your lawyer. It depends on which state you often will not need cops for a restraining order or an order of protection. Again, it depends on the state. I spoke to soon earlier. That always helps, of course. If you do have a lawyer, it is not necessary.

The cops are supposed to intervene in these situations, but they will often duck involvement where there aren't explicit threats of violence and especially where the harasser used to live in the home with the victim, like I said before, because then they think, ah, this is this bad, it's no big deal. Here's what I'd recommend,

and this is via Corbin Payne, aka our unofficial legal, unofficial, very unofficial legal counsel here on the show. Gather all the evidence that we mentioned before, the really important evidence here is any communications that you've had with this guy, your ex, where you've told him, hey, leave me alone, however it was worded. If you've got something that says, stay out of my house, include that because it makes your claims even stronger. Then Google Order of Protection or Restraining Orders,

followed by the county and state. So, for example, Order of Protection in Davidson County, Tennessee. Figure out which court handles that. I would advise unofficially, and not as your lawyer, of course, but go in to see the clerk of that court with your evidence and ask the clerk what you should fill out. Keep the detail short, keep it simple, emphasize the times you've asked him to leave you alone, and they should walk you through the form. Now, clerks aren't allowed to give legal advice, but these stalker harassment situations, the rules tend to get relaxed a little bit. I know we are right now, as you can see, if you listen to the show regularly, this is a long answer, and I'm pretty impassioned. People will kick

into high gear to help a victim of abuse like this. Now, the information you put on this form needs to be truthful. It has to be accurate. But it is vitally important that you talk about threats that he's made against you, if any, and that you should certainly speak about the terror and the fear that this instills in you. And it shouldn't be too hard when you say he sent me video of my community, sends me videos of video cameras installed in my house like something out of freaking a horror movie.

Courts aren't going to act to stop someone from being annoyed and bothered. they will act when somebody is being terrorized and abused. And make no mistake, you are being terrorized and abused. And Gabe, I think we can touch on that. I mean, this is the way you need to frame it to the court. After you're done with this, there may be an appearance or something like that. You don't necessarily need a lawyer for this. Again, it can help.

You appear before the judge. You explain the issues, the terror it's caused, the evidence you have. This is one of the few times that non-lawyers are actually in a decent position to represent themselves in a court proceeding. If you can afford a lawyer, hire one, outsource the word. worrying and the stress, you know, they'll take care of it for you. You may also want to hire a private investigator who specializes in counter surveillance, depending on how serious this gets. They might just help you with the devices. There's not going to be somebody sitting out in front of your house,

but these devices and these private investigators, often these guys know how to work that stuff or know someone who does. A lot of types of investigators work more for companies and people who are being surveilled for economic espionage, but they might be willing to help you in a domestic abuse situation. Like you might have somebody who just cares enough to say, oh, you have one of these, get rid of this, and buy this, and replace it with this. It's really hard to say. I know from my perspective, this kept me awake thinking about all the scenarios that I could hear. This guy's a psycho, man. So I'll cap it with this. Really sorry this is happening to you. This is a person you could have ended up married to. So just don't underestimate this. This is a scary person. They are

showing you how scary they can be. Hopefully this is not just the beginning of how scary they can be. I would stay with friends for a while while you handle this. This guy is unstable. He's a bad person. And even if you succeed in getting a protection order, all you have is a protection order. You then have to catch him violating it and put him in jail. This is kind of the beginning of this process. And again, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I really do feel for you. And I think you should follow these instructions pretty explicitly and take care of this, because it is so much better safe than sorry when you're dealing with abusers like this. You're listening to Feedback Friday here on the Jordan Harbinger show. We'll be right back. And now back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan

Harbinger show. All right. What's next? Hi, team. Thanks for all you do and for all your efforts to connect with people. I'll keep this simple. How do you stop caring about what other people think about you? Signed, always glancing around. I feel for this guy. I spent so much time caring about. what other people think. Of course, I still, I still care, right? Like, I still care a little, but only in the way that I want to be a productive member of society, polite enough society, and not offend people by, like, my smell or very presence or something like that.

But I used to think about this so much that I couldn't even function. I couldn't even focus on school, middle school, some of high school, I was just like, my predominant, my predominant program running in my brain was, are people thinking about or talking about me or looking at me? Now I realize that that's not real. I didn't know that. Oh, it was the worst. That's such a big interesting.

I think everyone, everyone when they were kids and in school, I mean, I think you're so self-conscious. The last thing you want to do is stand out or be different. But yeah, I didn't realize that was such a big thing because I don't see you that way now. Well, yeah. I'm not that way now at all. Not even a little bit. But, you know, it also didn't help that there was like this trend in middle school. And I remember this clearly because it really affected me where there would be people who would

bully you by ambushing you to like get up in your personal space and ask you a lot of questions if they knew you were shy. They thought it was hilarious, but I would be like recoiling, you know? And then if you were quiet and shy, people would like do things where the whole class would, they didn't do this to me as much. They did this to a lot of other people and it was always freaking me out. They would turn around and point at that person all at the same time. Like, you know, it would be like, one, two, three. And everyone would point at Kevin and be like, oh. And this quiet kid in the back would just freak out because, you know, he's like, oh, good, I'm invisible. I'm doing my math homework. And, like, one of the bullies would just, like, make everyone spotlight

him. And it was so awful. But I was like, oh, my God, that's going to happen to me sometime. You know, just like a form of social anxiety, I think, that I eventually got over. Thank God. So first, you got to get clear on a couple of things as an adult. You probably don't have these classroom issues that I mentioned, hopefully. Do you care what other people think about you because you want to understand or evaluate yourself? Or do you care what other people think about you because you're self-conscious and you feel insecure? You know, my middle school was punctuated or defined, rather, by feeling self-conscious and insecure. Now, though, of course, I care what other people think about me, but it's because, okay, how's the show being perceived? Am I improving as a host?

Are the interviews of interest to the audience, or am I being self-serving? Am I answering questions in a useful way on Feedback Friday? You know, I'm thinking about those. That requires feedback and other people's opinion, but we have to make sure we know which one of these we are going for because I think it's easy to get them confused. Those are two very different motivations for caring what other people think about you. And sometimes they get crossed.

Like it can kind of be a little bit ambiguous whether you're doing it because you're so worried about how you're perceived or you're actually in a healthy way trying to understand how you measure up against meaningful and relevant standards, whether it's at work or in your personal life or whatever it is.

So I think that's an important thing to separate. Also, I kind of want to reframe a little bit. I'm not convinced that caring what other people think is a bad thing at all. I think it works really well if you're using it to evaluate yourself, like we said. But I'm also, there's this whole cult of like, I don't give a crap, you know, about anything. I don't care what people think. And that was trendier maybe a few years ago, but it's still going right now. And I see it a lot on Instagram and these influencers are like, yeah, man, don't care what other people say.

It doesn't make any sense. If you don't give a crap what people think about you, you're not enlightened. you're probably a narcissist, you're probably got some sociopathic tendencies. Like, you should have some measure of wanting to conform to a reasonable standard of behavior. Comform might not be a great word to use for this. But, you know, we've all seen people who truly, truly, truly don't care and they're terrible to be around or they're in prison, right, because they can't control themselves. A normal degree of concern about what other people think about you is healthy.

This is how we get along at society. This is why we have norms and rules. So in trying to stop caring what other people think of you, I think what you're really trying to do is not care what other people think about you too much and not letting what other people think about you hold you back in your life and your career. This is a very personal thing. It's up to you to decide what that balance is. Gabe. Yeah, I mean, look, this is a very universal question. Every single human being wrestles with this. We could probably spend hours dissecting exactly how it's playing out in this person's life. But look, let's just cut to the chase. There are a few practical strategies for reducing. self-consciousness. One of them, and this is the one that I have to remind myself up all the time, is that even though it's very tempting to think that people are thinking about you constantly, they're not. They're doing it. They're thinking about you way less than you are thinking about you. And in many cases, maybe most cases, they're not thinking about you at all. That actually has a name. It's called the spotlight effect. And it's very real. Because we are in our lives and in our bodies,

We think that everybody else has as much access to our inner life as we do. But that's absurd, right? Like they're so worried about themselves, they're not even focused on you. So that's really important to keep in mind. I know that's sort of an academic concept. But every time I catch myself worrying, I'm like, oh, yeah, spotlight effect. I've got to keep that in mind. To Jordan's point also, I think it's important to use other people's perception of you as data

that can be useful, but not as the be all and end all of how you see yourself. sometimes when you worry about what other people think about you, what you're really trying to do is define your experience of yourself. Like you're standing at a party, you got a drink in your hand, you're not talking to anybody at the moment, and suddenly you think that everybody's looking at you as like this loser who can't talk to people, who's alone,

who's like, you know, whatever ideas come into your head. But that isn't who you are as a human being. That's just maybe the circumstance of you at this party. It's not the end of the story. So I do think it's important to integrate other people's point of view into your beliefs about yourself, but to make your own judgments ultimately about who you are. And it sounds to me like from your letter, even though it was very brief, sometimes accounting for other people's beliefs can take over your own beliefs of who you are. And it's also worth

looking at some of the roots of your self-consciousness. Everybody has it. Some people have it more than others, just the thing. Spoiler alert, I will tell you that this all probably has to do with your childhood to some degree. I think all this stuff goes way, way back, right? So how you're wired, how you were brought up, who your parents were, what formative experiences you had as a kid, these all affect how you move through the world and especially self-consciousness. So I do think it's important to understand why you care what other people think about you. Everybody has different reasons, right? Like, I think some people care about what other people think of them because they want to be seen as good or attractive or useful or worthy or, you know, some people care about other

people's perceptions because they're constantly checking in, looking around, am I too difficult, am I too much or some people just like the attention honestly. I think that is sort of a form of feeling like you're very important. You know, if I'm at this party and everyone is looking at me and they have an opinion that at least, maybe I'm not talking to anybody, but at least I'm interesting, you know, so I don't know if this instinct ever goes away completely, Jordan. I think everybody cares to some degree what other people think of them. Most people care about it a lot, which is why most people behave so strangely out in the world. But that said, you know, you can learn to calibrate it and to use it in a healthier way. Talking to a therapist would be helpful here

if it's getting to the point where it's like paralyzing you or it's taking over your life. I think it can be really, really helpful to talk to a professional. You didn't ask about self-comparison specifically. You were talking about how other people see you, but we did write a really good article and did a deep dive on the topic of why we compare ourselves to other people and how to stop. Those might be really helpful for you. So we'll link to those in the show notes. Right on. All right. What's next? J-Team. After working on Happenhanations. at a dysfunctional energy company for six years, I've decided that I want to leave. However,

there is one little snafu. In considering what a pre-employment background check may entail, I'm concerned about the possibility of a credit check. I live in the state of Illinois, and the law on whether employers can pull credit for employment screening goes beyond my level of legal expertise. While I have not filed for bankruptcy and am currently on top of all of my payments, I have high levels of debt due to costs rising much faster than my income. That's partly because I took a significant pay cut to come to this company in the first place. This has lowered my credit scores, and I am concerned that a future employer might rescind an offer upon discovering this, especially because I might be managing projects and budgets in my new role. Can employers in Illinois

legally pull credit? If so, what defines the threshold at which they may reverse a hiring decision? Can I subtly ask a prospective employer if they do look at credit? What should I do? Signed captive to my credit. This is an excellent question, and it's especially interesting, your case because your situation might be unique, but anyone who is looking for a job anywhere, not just Illinois, should know the answer to this question. So let's dig into it. First, some good news. There are federal and state laws that govern the use of credit reports in hiring decisions. The federal law is called the Fair Credit Reporting Act, FCRA. The FCRA states that employers can obtain credit reports for employment purposes, but the applicant's consent is

required. So if you don't consent, they can't use your credit scores. So you'll know if they're going to do that. Also in Illinois, specifically, there's a state law passed in 2011 called the Employee Credit Privacy Act, ECPA. The ECPA says that employers can't use credit reports or histories to hire, fire, or set pay and conditions for many types of jobs in the states. But that doesn't apply to all jobs. The types of employers that the ECPA does not cover are banks, insurance companies, law enforcement, state and local government, or debt collectors. So if you're sticking with energy sector, which it sounds like you are, you might be good. Of course, you want to check with a real lawyer in your jurisdiction to get the real straight dope on that. But here's the possibly bad news.

In Illinois, even employers who can't use credit reports, and in many other states for that matter, so don't just switch forward because you're not in Illinois. Even employers who can't use credit reports are still allowed to use them for certain positions if credit history is a bona fide occupational requirement. In other words, if there's a damn good reason for them to know your credit switch, some of the bona fide occupational requirements are if you have unsupervised access to over $2,500 in cash or assets that can be sold, power over business assets of $100 or more per transaction, which if you're doing money stuff at all and it's not just a $20 burrito, you're probably going to fall into this.

Access to personal or confidential information or financial information, that could get sticky depending on your job or a managerial position that involves setting the direction or control of the business. That is probably a little bit higher than your current pay grade, but again, check just to be sure. Since you might be managing projects and budgets in your new role, as you said, it is very possible your role creates a bona fide occupational requirement for them to check your credit history. Doesn't mean they will, just means they could, and it really does depend on how much power

you have over money and information in this role, and whether it's the company's policy to pull credit reports for that role. Obviously, this is in part because they want to make sure you're not tempted to steal from the company if you've got access to cash and you're up to your eyeballs in debt. So it's kind of reasonable. It's not getting all up in your business for a reason. It may not matter. So to answer your questions, can employers in Illinois legally pull credit? Yeah, but only in some industries and functions, if they have a good business reason to do so. Also, to keep in mind, employers who run credit checks, they can't just see your credit score in most cases. The modified report that they pull, it includes information that contributes to your score, like a payment

history, but the three-digit number is not included. They will see open lines of credit like mortgages, outstanding balances, auto student loans, foreclosures, late payments, mispayments, bankruptcies, collection amounts, that kind of stuff. So if you are really drowning, they can see some of that. Paying your bills on time, that seems to be one of the most important factors, which it sounds like you're doing. So you may be worrying a little more than you need to. Again, I haven't seen your credit score, so I don't know. What defines the threshold at which they may reverse a hiring decision? Gabe, you and I researched this. I didn't find a threshold at which the company is going to disqualify you or reverse a hiring decision. That just means there's

no information, not that they don't do it. Yeah, doesn't sound like there's some magic number at which they decide you're undesirable. I think that's probably a company policy, probably somewhat subjective. I'm guessing that's made on a case-by-case basis, considering your overall picture as a candidate. I wouldn't be surprised if they weighed a whole bunch of other factors more heavily than this one and just kind of threw this one in there just to kind of have a complete picture. Yeah, kind of do too. Just like, oh, we're on the fence about this person. Oh, my gosh, they have a great credit score. Well, that means they're responsible. Exactly. Or we're deeply on the fence about this person, oh my gosh, they have never paid a bill in their life. How are they even getting to work?

Do they even have a car? No thanks. You know, to heck with this guy next. If they're not on the fence and they love you, they might be like, well, yeah, I mean, times be tough. Got a couple back payments. NBD, bills are still paid on time. Welcome to the company. To your last question, can you subtly ask your employer or your prospective employer if they look at your credit? Yeah, you can. And before they do pull your credit, they are required to notify you by law and you have to give consent. We don't have to give consent. They need your consent, is what I meant to say. So you can always say, why do you need that?

It's none of your business, which probably means you're not going to get that job, but at least they won't pull your credit score. You might want to weigh the risks of asking this question by asking, you're kind of throwing out a little red flag that you might be a risky candidate. Like, whoa, what's in there? Maybe we should. We weren't going to pull it. But now that you mention it, maybe we will.

If they end up not pulling a credit score, you'd be raising a red flag for nothing. or maybe your report is fine for their purposes. Gabe, you got anything to add? Nope, I think that pretty much covers it. I would say that this person should probably do his best to get his finances in order as best as he can. I know that he's probably working pretty hard, but consolidating debt, meeting monthly payments,

cutting expenses as much as possible, whatever he can do to make that picture, a little rosier would probably be in his interest while he job hunts. But he can also check his credit reports ahead of time, so there are no surprises. You know, every year you're entitled to one free credit report from each of the three main credit bureaus.

So you can access those reports for free through a number of services. I think you can get it for free from annual credit report.com, which is, I believe, guaranteed by federal law. You probably don't want to access all three of your credit reports at the same time, just space them out every few months just so it doesn't affect your credit score in any way. But most importantly, do not disqualify yourself from a better job just because your credit history is not perfect. It's a good point.

Again, the company might not even pull your credit report. they might pull it but find it acceptable. So anyone who's listening who's facing a similar question, I'm guessing there are a lot of people in the job market right now. Check your state laws. Every state is different. Only some states like Illinois, California, New York, a few others, have state laws that protect applicants in the situation.

So I do recommend doing your research so you know what you're getting into. But it sounds like it's time for a career change for you. So good luck, man. This is the Jordan Harbinger show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. After the show, we've got a preview trailer of our interview with the one and only Dr. Drew Pinsky of Loveline fame. Always love that guy. Stay tuned for that after the show. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going.

Who doesn't love some good products and or services? You can always visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. Great. Gabe, what's next? Hey, Jordan. I met this guy online a few weeks ago and we really hit it off. We both had a lot of shared interests and a similar sense of humor. So we ended up texting each other constantly, literally every moment from day to night. Remember those dates? Yeah.

Those don't come along very often. Yeah, those are, I mean, good for you. When you get married, that's it. I'm just kidding. No, but those are fun. That's fun. It's exciting, right? We might have spoken too soon, given the rest of the letter.

But I was happy that you, I don't even know why I'm so excited because I think this letter might be turning. I'm happy for you. Oh, wait. I already know what happens. It all goes downhill. This is a disaster. All right, let's see what else.

The letter goes on. We also called each other constantly for hours every day and went on a couple of virtual Zoom dates. Eventually, we both decided that we really wanted to meet in person, so we set a date to go out for some hiking and dinner. This is when things started to go downhill. Did he break into her house and set up video cameras? Yes.

No, it's not going to be worse than question one. Same person writing two parts of the story, two different letters. No, this is not the prequel to the other letter. This is a different situation. She writes, before I date, I texted him my address, and just as a side thought, I asked him to make sure he would be wearing a mask. He responded immediately that he would not, and that COVID was, quote, just a flu, unquote. I was definitely shocked, considering that we live in New York, where cases are still rising, and that it's been my impression that COVID is still pretty dangerous. I also live with my grandparents who are high risk, so maybe I'm more paranoid, too, but I could never forgive myself if I gave them something.

After sitting on this for about a day, I called him and asked him if he would please wear a mask just for my peace of mind. This is when he started to get angry. He said that it was his choice to wear a mask or not, and that if I was so concerned, I should just cancel our date. I was starting to get angry too, so I did just that. I canceled our date right there on the spot and hung up. Now it's been a week, and we haven't contacted each other at all. I think he's blocked me on social media as well. I just feel incredibly lost and sad.

I feel like we had a great connection, and I can't believe we lost it over such a silly debate. I'm not sure how to move forward. On one hand, I really thought I was in love. But on the other hand, being safe about COVID and wearing masks is super important to me, especially again because of my grandparents. So I'm wondering what I should do. Should I reach out and apologize and ask for another date? Should I try to convince him that COVID is a serious issue?

Or should I just keep the silence and let things fade out? Signed, crying behind my mask. This is really sad, actually, because this has all been politicized, and I'm going to try not to do that here, because there's a right, there's a quote unquote right answer for this, regardless of whether or not your pro mask or anti-mask, and I can't believe I'm even saying that. Clearly, recently, wearing a mask has become a shorthand for values and beliefs about the virus

and the world. And depending on your beliefs, wearing a mask either makes you a conscientious person who cares about other people or just another one of the sheeple buying into propaganda about the virus. Similarly, not wearing a mask, either makes you a free-thinking defender of liberty or a self-centered mask hole, I said mask hole, who doesn't take science seriously or care about humanity. So basically, you're running into a conflict of values here. And the values, values in general, are at the very center of every important relationship in your life. Even if COVID ends up being a complete hoax by the Democrats or whatever, you know, whatever you believe, or if it's just overblown, or if it's not overblown enough, he should have cared enough about your

concern. Gabe, if she was like, hey, this might not be a thing, but can you wear a colander and some tinfoil on your head to protect against the Wi-Fi mind control waves? I'd still be like, okay, all right, for first date, I'll show up wearing that, but it's going to be my mission to show you why this is BS, and now I'm judging you a little bit, but we have a good connection, so let's move forward. I'm not going to go, wham, and I have an uncontrolled emotional outburst now and insult you for trying to protect your elderly grandparents. I think that's an unreasonable reaction. Yes. Any way you slice it. He clearly thinks, oh, you're just like.

I'm kind of idiot that believes in this, but she's doing it because she's worried about killing her relatives and she doesn't necessarily know what to believe. That's reasonable, in my opinion. Well, I mean, this guy's probably clinging to evidence in his mind that that's not even a reality, and that's how he's using it to back it up. But I'm saying it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter at all. But what's really happening here, and you're talking about the values, which is exactly what this question is about, is that he's also expressing another value that has nothing to do with the pandemic or COVID, which is that if you have a belief and I have a belief, we can't even talk about it.

Oh, yeah. Interesting. If this guy were open to discussing the issue reasonably, even if he was convinced he was right and was determined to convince her of his point of view, now I would say maybe give it a shot. Like maybe you'd find a little flexibility. Maybe he would find some empathy for you or your grandparents, but he's not doing that, right? Like he has his rigid beliefs.

You have yours. He's not even open to considering any middle ground or exceptions. You sound like you kind of are. Like you sound like you understand why you want to. to wear a mask and what you believe about COVID, but you were at least willing to have a conversation. But the possibility of understanding each other in this situation is like slim. I would say it's non-existent. So given all of that, I say move on. And that's hard to do because you really like this guy, but you got to move on. I just think, look how quickly he dispensed of her and disposed of her

and their connection. Right. Because she wanted him to be conscientious of her wishes for her elderly grandparents' physical safety. That's kind of the most important thing that's happening here. Yeah. In a way, it has nothing to do with the virus, actually. It has nothing to do with the virus. Because if it weren't the virus, it would be something else. Right, right. It would be something else. It's like, I talked to a friend recently, and I said, oh, how's such and such mutual friend that we've all known for like 20 years? And we don't talk anymore. And I was like, what? Why? No, I'm not talking about why. Wait a minute. Did you guys get in a political argument about something and they're like yeah people are ridiculous like figure out how to talk to each other and coexist

with different beliefs especially i mean we live together in this uh whatever it's no whole thing i'm not even going on there it's not even worth it i'm just going to get angry myself about people getting angry about stupid crap find someone who shares your values is willing to consider another point of view those values aren't just legitimate because they're yours they're legitimate because they're reasonable i think bumble in apps need a filter need a little checkbox for people who Who wear masks and who don't. What do you think, Gabe? When is that feature coming? I feel like that would save so much grief and heartache and time for people. I think you're right. I will just say one more thing. I think this is obviously very painful for you to go through, but I think this is

actually a really great thing, ultimately, because what would have taken you weeks or months or possibly years to discover about this person, you have discovered before you even went on a real date. That's a good point. In a way, you just save yourself a ton of time and heartache by finding out now. So it'll hurt for a few weeks, but you'll be okay, and it will be nothing compared to what you would have had to live with, living with somebody who wouldn't even consider whether wearing a mask is something important in the extraordinary times that we're all dating in right now. You know, this could be extremely efficient, but also extremely awkward. Like I can see people sitting down for the pre-date drink, whatever, like pre-dinner drink. And it's like, okay, vaccines are no vaccines. Masks are no masks.

Yeah. like yang gang or Bernie bro. What is it? And then like one wrong answer and the other person's like, I'm out. You know what? I'm out. Goodbye. Yeah, throws $5 on the table and just steps out the door.

I mean, that would actually be a really smart thing if you run like a speed dating night, like just like a shorthand for some of those like fundamental issues in a relationship. But to your point, though, here's the thing is that if you're not going to be able to even talk to somebody about it or still love somebody who has different. beliefs from you, then is there even any room? You know what I mean? Like, what's the point even? Do they get the right answer? I guess the trick is, do they have such strong opinions on any of those things? Or are they kind of like, you know, this person has good points? Actually, I did this, but, you know, I just felt better safe than sorry, and you're like, yes. Right. This is the person. Totally. They're flexible. They're not an extremist in either way with their beliefs. They seem conscious of the fact that other people have different

beliefs and that doesn't make them horrible people, et cetera. Yep. All right. What's next? I was recently terminated from a small company, although I was glad to go, mostly because a couple of the managers had strong personalities. The employer stated that they were ending my employment during the probationary period, citing a quote-unquote culture clash. The thing is, I'd like to maintain relationships with my former coworkers, and I'd like to know what a good script would be. Do I say, hey, it didn't work out with your company, but I'd like to stay in touch? What do I say if they ask why I was terminated? I don't want to get into all the details, especially since they still work with those managers and may feel some loyalty. towards them. On a related note, what do I tell recruiters and hiring managers? So far, I've said,

it didn't work out and I'm used to larger companies, but when pressed, I added, there were some strong personalities there. But one recruiter recently said that using the term culture clash is basically saying that I'm too difficult to work with. So what's the right lingo to use? Thanks so much, reframing my firing. I'm going to sit down because I've had exactly one real job after college, and let's just say there were some strong personalities in a bit of a culture clash. Yeah, did you write into this letter asking for advice 20 years ago?

I mean, shout out to my Thatcher Profit and Wood crew from back at the law firm. I love those guys. I talk to them all the time. I actually really liked working there, but I hated that job. I also worked for a firm called Linklaters that did not go well.

Culture clash. I think it's a great idea to keep relationships from company to company no matter how short the stint or whatever happened there. Somebody wrote in a couple weeks ago, this might have just been like a fan letter or whatever, but they said they were expats and they move around all the time. And I was like, oh, great, you must have a really cool global network of people in tons of different countries. And they were like, actually, we have no friends because we move so much.

We just don't even try to make them. We don't try to make or maintain connections. It's not that they don't are friendly. It's just that they'll meet somebody and they're like, yeah, we're going to move in two years. so they're just casual acquaintances. And then once they move, it's like never again. They just don't talk, which is a wasted opportunity. I think you should try to maintain.

I mean, sometimes the only thing you get out of a job is a relationship with somebody. Like a boss, mentor, colleague, friend. Sometimes that's all that's there to salvage. I met a developer who's a really good friend of mine, Dominic. He made Connection Fox with me. I met him on a food tour in San Francisco with my parents. And we stayed friends and he's given me investment advice. it's been really awesome. He's making that product, ConnectionFox.com for the six-minute networking folks.

He's making that with me. He was like an early employee in Google, such an interesting guy. And I went on a food tour and I don't remember liking any of the food. I thought it was kind of a whack tour, but I met a close friend there. I went to an event. That's where you and I met. We met at an event. I don't remember anything about that event other than that's where we met and became friends. Totally. So what do you think about maintaining relationships with her former coworkers if it didn't really work out for her at this company. Yeah, I love that she wants to stay close to them. I think that's smart. I think it's classy. I would say be honest when appropriate, but you might not want to totally smack talk, your former employer. Be honest, but don't use the exchange as an excuse to

bash them. You can always say, hey, it wasn't much of a fit. I struggled to really work well there. That's fine. Or you might find out other people are dealing with the same issues and nobody wants to talk about it. And they're like, oh, you're so lucky you got out. Brian, what a jerk. he's ruining the office for everyone. You're like, I got fired because Brian didn't like me. You know, who knows? You might just find out it wasn't the place for you, and that's okay. As always, build meaningful relationships with the people who want to build meaningful

relationships with you. I don't know. Does that sound simplistic, Gabe? What do you think? No, not simplistic at all. If this office was full of dreadful people, then there might not be anybody for her to build a relationship with. But if there's, to your point, if there's one person, if there are two people who are cool and

they're worth staying in touch with, absolutely. And I don't think she has much to lose by being honest. But as for talking to recruiters and hiring managers, that one is a little bit trickier, but definitely doable. Basically, you want to tell a story that explains why it didn't work out without coming across as vindictive or failing to take accountability for your experience there. So I would take a little bit of time to really figure out what went wrong, even if it ultimately was a culture clash and a bad fit, which is totally fine. You know, we always play a role in every interaction. So I would ask yourself some questions. What could you have done to communicate better?

What could you have done to navigate those strong personalities a little bit better? What could you have done to recognize that that place wasn't the place for you a little bit sooner? I mean, even if it's 90% their fault and 10% your fault, the 10% that is your fault is going to help make this story meaningful to a hiring manager. And hiring managers are going to appreciate your honesty if you can tell your story in the right way. You know, I worked with a bunch of A-holes who wanted to micromanage me and we just didn't like each other. We're fighting all the time, so they fired me. You know, that's not a very good story. But a story that goes something like there were some strong personalities that made it

hard for me to do my best work. And, you know, looking back, I do think I could have been a little bit better at understanding them and communicating with them in the way that they wanted me to communicate. But honestly, I realize that what I really want to do is work with people who empower me and inspire me and make me want to do my best work. And I think that they sense that. And that's why they let me go and why I'm interviewing here. Like, that's a much stronger story.

So basically, tell the truth, be open, be vulnerable, be authentic, but take ownership of your piece of that story. Frame your firing as a difficult event that ultimately helped you become a better candidate. And if you do that, I don't think you can go wrong. Explain how it helped you understand the kind of office you do want to work in, the kind of job you do want to have. And if you've learned some things at that job, talk about them. Hiring managers, the impression is that they want the perfect candidate. I think the perfect candidate is somebody who is undeniably great, but is super open. about the things that they could have done better or the things that they still have to learn.

Hiring managers love people who are interested in growth and are not trying to always hide the ball. You know, when you ask somebody straight up why they were fired from a company, and they don't just come out and tell you the story and give you like an interesting narrative, they're going to sense that you're hiding something almost immediately. That'll work against you every single time. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Go back and check out Ray Dalio, part one and two if you haven't yet. If you want to know how I managed to book folks like Ray Dalio. It's because I've got a network. I've always working on my relationship, speaking of maintaining relationships. I've got systems. I've got tiny habits. I'm teaching you how to do that

for free over on the thinkific platform. This is our six-minute networking course. Again, totally free. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Maintain those relationships. The systems make it easy to do in just a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. This has been crucial for me. Jordan Harbinger.com slash. course. Show notes for the episode at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of this interview on our YouTube at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or you just hit me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast 1 and my amazing team, including of course Gabriel Mizrahi, who's here with me today,

Jen Harbinger, J. Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Melio Campo. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. As promised, here's your interview trailer with Dr. Drew Pinsky. It's like a movie script. This person was saying a bunch of crap, didn't make any sense. And then you said something along the

lines of, is there someone else in there I can talk to? And then they were like, sure. Yeah, I could tell it was a multiple. Yeah, that's pretty easy thing for me to tell. You listen with your whole body. You don't listen with your ears. And that really started happening with dealing with drug addicts out in the clinic because they pull you into a vortex. If I hear the sound, You know the little cartoon with these guys? Yeah, sure. I know I'm with a drug addict. Okay.

When I hear that yugita yuggerna in my head, I got, somebody's doing drugs. I just know. I'm just going to be sitting here listening to somebody going, huh, huh, huh, and all of a sudden I go yugita yugga and I go, oh, okay, I got it. I can stop listening now and just start asking what they're taking, how much they're on, that kind of stuff.

I'm thinking right now of this guy that called us and wanted to know. Women always freak out when they find out what I was in jail for. And all of a sudden, Adam goes, wait a man, find out that you were in jail or find out what you were in jail four. He goes, what was in jail for? And we go, oh, well, what were you in jail for? I broke into a mausoleum, and I twisted it off the head of an old lady and

boiled it to a skull, because I needed it for my little brother's snakes aquarium. And I thought, wow. And you don't understand that might be a little disturbing to me? Well, why? Okay, so he was psychopath. Psychopath. Yeah. Self-esteem

obviously doesn't care if you're successful. Right. Self-esteem is something established. I think 85. I mean, you can enhance it and you can move it a little bit, but most of it is set early. And mine was bad. Yeah, that's okay. That's all right. You know, it just if it gives you trouble, if it makes you feel bad, it gives you symptoms, it pairs your functioning. That's therapy time. Okay. Did you ever try therapy for that? 11 years. Oh, my God. Not for that per se. I was having overwhelming anxiety. That was my main reason. At least that's my wife's reason for sending me. For more with Dr. Drew, including what experiencing imposter syndrome

usually reveals about you and how we can spot the behaviors of addiction in others as well as in ourselves. Check out episode 72 right here on the Jordan Harbinger show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think,

the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you, or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for or something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.