The Jordan Harbinger Show - 392: Joaquin "Jack" Garcia | Undercover in the Mafia Part One

Episode Date: August 18, 2020

Joaquin "Jack" Garcia is the former undercover FBI agent who infiltrated the Gambino crime family of Cosa Nostra in New York for nearly three years, resulting in the arrest and conviction of 35 mobsters -- as revealed in his book Making Jack Falcone: An Undercover FBI Agent Takes Down a Mafia Family. This is part one of a two-part episode; part two drops later this week! What We Discuss with Joaquin "Jack" Garcia: How Jack managed to survive undercover posing as a mobster in the Gambino crime syndicate of La Cosa Nostra for nearly three years. The tells of organized crime: how wise guys generally know who's legit and who's not. Mob culture and the rules that govern the always-upward flow of money. How Jack became so trusted by the highest levels of the organization that they offered him the chance to be a "made" man. How Jack's work led to the arrest and conviction of 35 mobsters -- including the top members of the post-John Gotti Gambino crime family. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/392 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger show. If you're making money in the mob, money flows up. If you are somehow in the family, if you're on record with them as an associate or even if you're a mate guy, you have to kick up money up. Money always flows up. Never does a flow down. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger.

On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show, we have in-depth conversations with people at the top of of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional billionaire investor, each show turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. Today, Joaquin, aka Jack Garcia, former FBI agent who went undercover with the Italian mafia, namely the Gambino crime family. Jack was in so deep, he was almost a made man and had the trust of gangsters

at some of the highest levels of the organization. On this episode, we'll learn how Jack managed to pose as a mobster, even though he was Cuban and not Italian, including some of the tells that the mafia uses to figure out who's legit and who's not. We'll also talk a lot about how the mafia works, who gets paid and how, mafia culture and rules, and how Jack took down dozens of gangsters

during his time undercover. Jack credits a lot of his success undercover to his people skills, and you'll pick up some of that in our free course, six-minute networking, over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. No upsells, no enter your credit card crap, just good learning, and that's at Jordanharbinger.com slash course. Now, here's Jack Garcia on the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Have you ever heard of Sammy the Bull Gravano? Is that name ring of Bill? Yes, I've heard of him, right. But you never met him or you did? No, Sammy the Bull was actually, by then, he had cooperated with the government. See, that was in the 80s. I was in the 2000s.

And he really was very influential in putting a lot of bad guys away, including John Godd. Yeah. I mean, that's what he mentioned. He's like, look, you know, I did my part and everybody else was like, screw it. So why was I going to go to jail? I have kids and a wife, too, you know? Yeah. It didn't make any sense.

Well, that's what they do, Jordan. I mean, I don't know if you're aware of it. But what happens now, the mob originally was a way of life. You know, these old timers, they did it for a cause. They did it for a reason. they believed they died, they were pure cousinostra. You know, and then what happens when they get kind of Americanized, they start changing their ways and start approaching it,

not as a way of life, but as a business, and they're making money. So what happens when a business is going under? They decided to bankrupt themselves or end it somehow. Well, that's how these mob guys are, because they're afraid of what we, the law enforcement, to hit them with Rico, you know, sometimes, 25, 30, 40 years. So they make a business decision and say,

wait a minute, I'm going to cut my losses. Because in reality, if I play the true Cozanostra way and take it with me and go to jail, who's going to take care of my family? Right. Nobody is. Cozanostra is the name, is that Sicilian or Italian name of the mafia?

Cozanostra is with mafia here in the U.S. It's mafia in Europe, in Italy, is Cozanostra here. People sometimes use La Cosa Nostra, but in reality is only Cozanostra, the way it is. Okay, and it means, what does that mean? It means our thing? It's correct. And when you say hit him with RICO, RICO is an organized crime set of organized crime statutes that allow you to, well, why don't you explain it?

I'm a lawyer. I should know this, but I can't remember. It's been one time. I'm a law enforcement officer. I've done so many RICO cases. The definition of RICO, I think it's Racketeer and influenced corruption organizations. Now, what it is is an act. that combines numerous offenses that an enterprise deals in, and this is a way to get to the head

of the enterprise. So, for instance, if you're operating under the Gambino crime family, those who are the workers underneath them, any profits, any extortion, any criminal acts that fall within these, I think this 26 violation, could be used to dismantle, disturb, and destruct organized crime. So it's a very effective law enforcement tool, and it carries with it tremendous, you know, time. I'm talking 25, 30, 40, and it's just not limited to, of course, organized crime. I mean, you could do it with narcotics. There is any time that there is a group and enterprise with multiple people all working together for the commission of crime. So this is the racketeer-influenced and corrupt organizations act. So that's,

The idea behind Rico, I guess, from 1970, which is when it came out, was you wouldn't be able to get a lot of these guys with anything because they'd say, look, I'm just keeping money in my basement. There's no crime against that. Oh, look, I have an illegal gun. All I get is a firearms charge. But with Rico, it's, look, we know that you're associated with these people and that this money is for drugs, which are used to then trade for arms, which this guy has. So now, as everybody is in one, under one charge or several charges that carry a stronger

or penalty, they can't just sort of divide things up. It's like when Tony Sopranos says, hey, hold this, hold this gun for me in the basement in the shoebox because it's just a light charge. I don't know where that came from. Under RICO, you can get everybody who's involved with something like that, as long as you can prove their association, right? Exactly. They have to be in this particular enterprise.

So whether it's organized crime, the Latin Kings, MS-13, however you want to use it, as long as it's as an enterprise. And that's the beauty of what's happened today. the power, thanks to Rico, we're now able to provide these charges that are really outstanding. And they kind of fear, the criminals fear more of the government than the bad guys. And a lot of that helps them make their decision as to whether they're going to cooperate or not. Because with us, you know, you're looking at 25, 30 years, it outweighs what, you know, the mob. What are they going to do for me?

So they are more fearful of us than they are a retribution. because of the RICO schedule. I mean, think about it. Are you willing to do 25 years in prison and knowing that here you are devoted to this secret society and your family is going to be on welfare unless, of course, you're enterprising enough

to save money, put it aside, have it, of course, concealed or given to other people a hold for you so you're able to survive. But a lot of these guys don't think like that. A lot of these guys are instant gratification. They get money, they blow it. They'll buy a car, they'll buy a house, or buy a boat, they'll buy this. And there's no reserve. And the mob nowadays, it's kind of like once they get locked up, they start making a decision and saying, you know what, maybe I should cooperate. Years ago, very few guys cooperate. I'm talking about the Jovalachi era. I'm talking about some of those back in the old days. But now, as they say, you've got to slap these guys just to shut them up because they're all talking. They're all let's wanting to make. a deal because, hey, you know what, the guy who talked. Now, that, of course, has changed so much

and a lot of guys don't want to make deals, of course, to cooperate, nor do they even want to plead guilty in prison. Now, if you plead guilty, as you know, as an attorney, your charges are going to be less because you don't have to go through the process of going to a trial. Right. The problem with that is when it comes to sentencing is the allocution that they would have to make that they belong to this enterprise, that they are members of organized crime, that they are a member of a particular family, the Gambino Crime Family. They can't do that. And the reason for that is because under the guys, it is a secret criminal society. So by you admitting it, you're admitting it that it exists. So these guys don't want to take that plea.

However, later on, and I'm talking about during the Chin Giganti, who was the boss of the Genovese family and others, they decided to say, you know what, let's take the plea. And the reason we're going to take the plea is because I could be out in five or ten years. I can go back making money. I can go back to helping my family. But what am I going to do in jail for 25, 30 years? So a lot of that has kind of become, you know, more mainstream. Now, you had a hard head like John Gotti. John Gotti always said, I've been accused of stealing the church and I had to steeple

sticking up my ass. Hey, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not guilty. I didn't do it because these guys don't want to go to court and admit the fact that they are a member of this organized crime because those guys are the true cause of those for guys. Now, you worked in 45 investigations, which honestly, that sounds like a hell of a lot. Is that a lot for an undercover? That seems like a lot. Well, actually, after the book, we sat down, I've done, my career was 24 out of 26 years,

was solely dedicated working undercover. So I worked over 100 major investigations. The other ones, which I did were buy bust and drugs and quick turnaround cases. I not even counted in that group. So what I meant by working major investigations, I'm talking about those that have a funding, those that require you to work a case as opposed to doing quick buys on the street, doing dope buys, guns, whatever you may do out there. So, you know, it was my little niche that I found, Jordan.

I didn't go into the FBI to become, though, although my motivation was watching Serpico, you know, Al Pacino, back in the days, long hair, beard, he's living in the village. He has a sheep dog, a girlfriend, a motorcycle. That was what you said, this is what I want to do. And then, of course, I changed from there. I went down to Quantico. I wanted to become a regular G-man. And then here I am in the FBI.

I found my niche. And I reasoned for that was because in the FBI, we got involved in narcotics in the early AIDS. And because I'm a native Spanish speaker, I was able to transition to working dope. And because I'm a guy from the Bronx, you know, when I got into the FBI in 1980, it didn't really mirror the demographics of our society.

Yeah, I would have asked. Everybody looked like an agent, if you know what I mean. And here I come from the Bronx and, hey, how you doing? You know, that kind of thing. And I started working undercover and that just grew and grew. And, you know, in hindsight, I looked at it as I loved every minute of it. But in hindsight, what I did was good for the Bureau, but it wasn't good for Jack Garcia. Yeah.

You know, it was just a lot of stress. Well, we'll get to that in a bit. I think it's kind of interesting that they've got somebody in there with, look, a guy who's not a Protestant white guy from Connecticut, we got to put him back with the criminals. He's the only one who can pass. Like, that in itself is a little bit like, all right, well, it shows you kind of what they were thinking back at that time.

When you're in the FBI, as you were, how do you even get tapped to work undercover? Were they literally just like, oh, look, a Latino, we got to put him back in the mix because none of us can pass? Well, you know what? That's a great part. Keep in mind that undercover work is an investigative technique. is similar to doing a wiretap, it's doing it, whatever stand. What it is is an opportunity to infiltrate a group that may be through the help of an informant who could walk you in or you doing it stone cold, meaning you're spending a lot of time

and energy and money trying to build, you know, your bona fides with the bad guys. The reason why I guess I was picked is because I spoke Spanish. I didn't look like an agent, I didn't dress like an agent, and didn't comport like an agent. So that was saying, yes, they came up to me and said, look, how would you like to do this undercover work? They didn't ask the guy next to me who's sitting there with a three-piece suit and wingtip shoes. But they asked me, you know, what I'm saying? So keeping that in mind is, yes, that happens a lot in the Bureau where you utilize minorities and also non-minority guys.

but look, so we were addressing whatever the problem was. At that time, it was narcotics. So only, of course, you had to be a Spanish speaker in order to infiltrate the group. You certainly couldn't be a guy there, a regular guy, because that just makes it too hard. But I have seen situations where I'm doing the undercover and we needed other undercover guys to help.

And some of these people, agents and cops would say, tap on to another. Hispanic just by virtue of that person being a Hispanic. But that person was like the Urkel of Hispanics. Steve Urkel of Hispanic. So I'm going, wait a minute, you can't use this guy. That'll be equivalent to me saying, let's put all the white guys with the mobsters. You know, being an undercover, it's a skill. It's something not that you learn. It's something you're born with. You know, although we have this great FBI training and undercover school, you don't become an undercovered. You don't become an undercover by going to class, you've got to be able to think quick on your feet.

You have to be able to be comfortable around all types of people. You have to be quick-witted, and likable, and not fearful of it. And so not everybody fits into the criteria. But the main reason, I guess I was tap because I did speak Spanish. They needed Spanish speakers. I know that your family escaped from Cuba. And I'm wondering, okay, so that makes you a Spanish speaker that makes you somebody who probably can blend with other Latinos or people who had maybe should I say rough upbringing? I mean, you lived in the Bronx in the 70s and 80s, right? So. Yeah, well, that's true. I came in here when I was nine years old from Cuba. Our family came with just a clothes on our back. And I, of course, I lived in the tough areas. I lived in Washington Heights.

When we moved to the Bronx, we thought we hit the lottery. I mean, think about that. You're moving from Washington Heights to the Bronx and you'd think, wow, we made it. Yeah, moving on up. So I grew up in a tough neighborhood. I grew up in a neighborhood where they either became a cop or you were chased by one. There's no other option, you know. So, of course, you know, that developed a lot of my forming of my personality, survival skills, how to get along, how to read people, body language, when, you know, danger is coming when it's not

danger. See, a lot of people who go to these undercover schools that we give think that they, maybe they'll see the movie Donnie Braspoe, they'll see some undercover movie, they'll say, boy, I want to be that. No, that doesn't work that way. You either born with this skill or you have no business doing this because you're either going to get hurt or get somebody else hurt. So it is something that I picked up in the streets of New York that kind of form my personality

that I was able to apply as an undercover. Just like I might have been good as an undercover agent, but I respected those agents who were good administrative agents. Guys, you could go to court, file affidavits, file arrest warrants, search warrants, Title III application. I couldn't do that. This was my little niche. You know, there were guys who were good bomb squad.

I mean, picture that. You got guys who working in a bomb squad. Yeah, that's a bomb over there. You go diffuser. What are you nuts? Yeah, that's a different kind of, you need somebody who can keep their cool under a totally different kind of pressure to do that job.

Exactly. And I respect that. That's what it is. You find your little niche, and I was lucky to have found it very early on in my career. And then I just rolled with it. And at always the end of my career, I never had a case assigned to me. I was solely dedicated. I don't think any agent could claim that. That I was just doing undercover, and I was bouncing from one case to the other, or some of them were simultaneous. Some of them were difficult, but that's all I did. I had a zero caseload, but I was actively involved in five or six cases. at one time.

It kind of sounds like if you weren't working for the FBI, you just would have been a criminal that was really busy. Yeah. If I wasn't working for the FBI, I would have been investigated by the FBI. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, it's something that I felt very, very happy to do it. And also, one of the beauties about the FBI, I mean, you have the amazing most men and women

who are agents in the FBI. And I know lately we're taking a hit, but hey, you know, let me assure you, Jordan, that's a cabal in itself that's a taken to hit. That's not the overall agent. Men and women are hardworking. They're out there every day busting their homes, trying to make cases and keep us safe, and they're not involved in any of the politics arounding us. And that is, you know, very important things. So I always felt very comfortable what I did. I felt uncomfortable who was watching me and that they were going to make sure that I would come out of a meeting alive. Because that's at the end of the day. That's the most important thing. You want to be able to come out of your meeting without being whacked.

in the book that you use networking skills and positive charisma to generate rapport with people. So you would say, you said everyone loves a happy guy, which I thought was an interesting kind of technique because I think a lot of people don't think about using that kind of skill. They're thinking about other investigative techniques, but you actually focused on getting people to like and trust you. Well, I learned about human nature very early on. And I guess is when I came from Cuba, I remember getting on the plane from Miami to New York where we were going to live. I remember my father said, listen, I says, whatever happens, if you bump into an American, you step on their shoes on an airplane, just say, I'm sorry. They will be the most

forgiving, appreciative people. So what I've learned, I think, throughout my life is always when you go into meeting somebody who's a stranger, whether that person is a mobster, a cartel leader, I'm going there with the attitude of being nice. I'm starting as a regular guy. I'm not going there with a chip on my shoulder. I'm not going there like a flaming asshole because you know what happened to that? If you start up here really tough, like you're a tough guy, then how are you going to go? You can't go down because first impressions are your most important impression. So I always wanted to start down here. If I needed to kick it up, I could kick it up. So my thing was I treated people respect. I was jovial, I hung out with them. People gravitate to me because of my size. I mean, I'm six,

four, three hundred ninety pounds. And, you know, I'm a guy who is not, you know, like Luca Broxy, you know, could say two words. I mean, I was like you're seeing me now. I'm a outgoing, personable. I never had a problem with making friends. And I used that for me. I would always go in, not with that tough guy attitude. And I've seen guys do. And you know what? That's ineffective. You don't want to do that. You want to disarm this person. You want this person to like you so they could tell you what you want to hear. Yeah.

You don't want to have them with blocks. You want to become their buddies. So then all of a sudden, they're confiding in you. This is what we're going to do. This is what we did. I did this. And while all of that's being going on, you're taping them. And that's the important thing, gathering evidence.

You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Joaquin, Jack Garcia. We'll be right back. And now back to Jack Garcia on the Jordan Harbinger Show. How do you know what to do and how to act? You mentioned you got it from the streets, but there's a bad guy code, and you talk about this in the book. Like, one thing was never pay for drinks or food directly, just leave huge tips. And I can imagine trying that and having the waiter chase me down and be like, man, you didn't pay for your meal. And I'm like, but I left $100 on the table.

Yeah, well, you didn't pay the bill. Well, you know what? The bar stuff we went to. We went to a lot of bar restaurants. Some of these guys were mob guys that own it. Now, I walk in to wait to see with the other guys I was meeting. I'm in the bar. Now, there's a barmate there.

Good looking young lady. She's serving me a drug. What would you like? I usually my drink was give me a kettle, one martini, three olives, glass of water on the side. You know? So I would get the glass. She wouldn't ask me how much, right? I finished the drink.

The guys come in. I'm going to go in my pocket, take out the big water money that knot with the rubber band on it. Bam, give her $100. Well, she's not going to say, hey, you owe me $1995 for a drink. You know, because even if she did that, 1995, she's still going to make $80 on you. Right. But what she's going to do is she's going to tell the manager, hey, that guy is a great guy. He says, he just gave me an $80 tip for a drink.

So what you do is you establish the fact that you are making money, that you're a powerful guy. You know, you don't go out with mobsters and say, hey, I had to. soup and the sandwich, here's $20. Or, you know, are you kidding me? I'm not going to pay for it. Let's split it four ways. Can you imagine four gangs are sitting around going, let's split it up? I had the soup. You had the sandwich and french fries.

What about the tip? Everybody fights because in the mob, it's all the make-believe. The more successful you are is every time you take that roll out and you've got that water money, that shows that you've been scamming. you've been doing some work. You know, you're out there. You're not a brokster. You're not, as they used to say, a mortefam, you know, some deadbeat, you know.

So that is one of the things. I wanted sometimes to pick up that check because it empowered me. Sometimes we get into bidding work. I goes, hey, your money's no good here. What are you doing? You're embarrassing me over here, you know? So what do you mean? You paid the land.

Let me get to. Forget about it. You pay for it. So you fight over it. And you don't. But one thing. thing was for sure. If you were a captain and above, you had alligator arms. You never went into your pockets at all. These guys are so tight, they squeak with their alligator shoes. How bad these

guys were. I'm telling you. But we went out there. It was all about showing that that you were successful before you went out. Your car was clean. You had your nice alligator shoes. You had your manicure. You know, you had your nice suit, your Breani's or Zanias, everything. You look like a million dollars, but inside they were thugs, they were criminals. They were sociopaths. And they go out there and they, you know, put on a big show. And meanwhile, they're outside borrowing money from somebody and trying to scrape nickels and dines. But you don't want to come off as that as a guy who's a brokster.

You always want to come off like, hey, I just landed a big deal. And one other thing is if you're making money in the mob, money flows up. If you are somehow in the family, if you're on record with that, as an associate or even if you're a made guy, you have to kick up money up. Money always flows up. Never does a flow down. I would do that occasion. We gave the impression when I was undercover with the mob that we gave the impression that I was

out there hustling, doing scams and all of that. But in reality, we were creating crimes. I would come back and say, listen, I said, I just got my guys. They scored a couple of plasma television sets. Look, what do you think? I'm selling them for like a grand apiece. So, of course, we would do is put it in our budget of our undercover and buy televisions about $2,500 and sell it to them for $1,000 and stolen merchandise.

Now, what does that do? That shows that I'm an earner. I'm a guy who's making money. Then the same thing would watch us. We would go out there and we would get it from our forfeiture unit of all the white-collar criminals and every other person, all their jewelry, their mink coats, you name it, all the vah. high valuable items, and I would say we did a stick up down in Miami. I have my crew go out there, did some home invasions for some of these Cubans down in drug dealers. And then I would say,

I'll give you a president's watch. All I'm looking for is $5,000. Everything above that is yours. Think you sell that watch is $7,000, $8,000 like this. So, of course, that showed not only that I'm kicking money up, but I'm giving them an opportunity to earn. So I made myself valuable and indisposable. If I would have gone in there and became a guy who had never a penny, never went into his wallet, never picked up a tab, never had a dime, never kicked up money, never gave tribute payments, that'd be on my ass, they throw me out. They would never allow me to hang out with them. That's just not the way it works in that life. There's a lot of funny little mafia tells, right? Like you mentioned the wad of cash with the rubber band around it.

Yes. It's like a rubber band that you literally get from broccoli, which I thought was kind of, funny, like all these rich guys have these vegetable rubber bands that they keep money wrapped in. And like, you never ask for the menu. There's all these little things that you wrote about where I just thought, what's that about? Why don't you ever ask? You never ask what's on draft. You never ask for the menu.

You always know what you want. It's like, this is like cultural stuff that you got to master. Cultural and out there in the streets of you being a knock-around guy. You're a guy who's out there. You're not a guy who takes out of. little leather wallet and he's going through the change or he's doing it. Okay, you don't do that. It's also you're not the type of guy who will go in, weary. I would walk in a restaurant. Okay, first of all, they see me coming, big guy like me. They're happy. They're tripping over

themselves to take care of me, right? They know I'm on a connected guy because I'm with the Gambino crime family. Hey, let me sit here, big Jack right here. The guy would come in and I said, get my drink, because by then they knew my drink or else they would bring it. at the same time. And then what would happen is I would go, hey, Tony, what am I eating today? Oh, I made a special. You got to try it. It is. It is unbelievable. It's a really? It's a good old or so pucco, nice off the ball. Yeah, yeah. I said, bring it on. And then what I guess? How about if I make a little something on this side? Do you like that? Yeah. Bring that on. To bring it all out. Next thing. Next, no, you eat like a king. You know what I mean? But those are behavior things than a guy,

Like one of the big adjustments for me was when I go out with my wife and we go to a restaurant and I go in there with a reservation, which I never had, okay? With a reservation, go in and they'll say, I'm sorry, your table's not ready, Mr. Garcia. You could sit by the bar and we'll let you know what is ready. This is like civilian Jack Garcia out on a date with your wife, whereas Mafia Garcia is like, hey. I said reservations. I look like an Indian to you. I said, get me that table right now. What's wrong with you? That's how you behaved in that world.

Oh, man. It was wild. And now you sit there and you're going, oh, my God, it's my table ready. You feel like a schmoat. And that world, they take care of these people as if they're celebrities. They want to hobnob with these people that are either outlaws or mobsters because they'll either give them somehow by association, respect or bring on fear. And that is so wrong. Why isn't the regular guy? Why isn't you and I going to be getting treatment and take those low lives and make them sit a wait outside? Because they don't want that. It's all about a show. It's fear. They're all big time eaters and bring the wine, bring this, bring that. I just found that to be an adjustment. And to me, I hard like, hey, guys, I was a special agent of the FBI. I got to sit out here for an hour and you see these schmose coming in there before me? Who are they?

They don't even have a reservation. You don't exactly look like a cop at almost 400 pounds, you mentioned. And you have this mafia image of, you said you had, like you're an earner, like you're scamming. But I know you were also, is it posing as a money launderer? Is that kind of part of that whole thing? Or is that just one of many various occupations? Jordan, I've done everything. I mean, I have posed as a money launderer.

I've worked as a drug dealer. I have worked as a transporter for drug dealers. I worked as a warehouse guy. I've been a gangster. I've been involved in cases that deal with police corruption, political corruption, Asian organized crime, Russian organized crime. The whole gamut. There are different hats that you play,

and there are different ways of how to play them. An example for that is when you're out there with the drug dealers or the dirty cops or whatever. You don't owe them any explanation as to where you're at or why didn't I call you back right away when you called. I don't have to explain that to you because that's a circle world that you don't. In the mob thing, there is deference there. There is respect.

When I remember the first time when I was in tight with Greg the Palm and he called me, we had those next telephones. Remember those, Jordan, the radio? And I hear him going, hey, Jackie boy, pick up the phone. I didn't want to pick up the phone. I'm in Miami work in another case. I let it go. Next day when I fly back, I see him.

He goes, what were you yesterday? He says, I told you. I was going down to Miami. He says, well, why don't you pick up the phone? I said, because I was busy. I said, you were busy. I said, you can't be busy. I said, in this life, when I call you, you answer.

And the reason for that is, how do I know you not arrested? How do I know you're not with the cops? How do you know you're not working right now for the cop? I need you to be available 24-7-365. And he would do that. I would get calls from him all hours a night. Two o'clock in the morning, he would say, Jackie Boy, I'm watching Real Bravo on TV.

He used to love the old Westerns. Oh, it's great. Put it on the Turner Channel. He wasn't calling me to tell me to put it on. He's calling me to see if I'm around. Then I go back with the other guys. guys on the crew and he says, yeah, Greg called me up yesterday at three in the morning. I don't know. He was talking about something in the morning how to do. It's all by they learned from their

previous arrest. They learn about things that they have done and they morphed themselves into a life to keep that from happening. Now, if you did that to me, if you're a drug dealer and you said to me, I called you, you called me back, you know where I'm going to tell you to go. I don't know you an explanation, dude. I said, hey, we're here doing a business. That's the end of that. You don't need to know. What are you, a cop? The mob, a whole different animal. I remember to Greg De Palma, one time I waited for him. Greg DePaulma was like a boss or something. Yeah, Greg DePalma was a captain in the Gambino crime family. Okay. I was in his crew. I was his driver. Very early on, okay, he tells me, meet me in such and such a place. I was late for something. I get there,

and he looks at me, he gets in a car, and he takes off, and he says, before he takes off, you wait here for me. Now, I'm sitting out there. It's a hot day. God knows, our surveillance sits, he's all over the place. Comes back about three hours later, he says, how does it feel? So, what do you mean? How's it feel?

I said, don't you ever do that to me again? If I tell you to be here at one o'clock, you're here at one o'clock. You understand me? You got it, boss. That's it. It's different rules. You know, yet when I worked dope, and I was dealing with Colombians and Dominicans and Cubans and all of that, you say 1 o'clock, you wind up 7.30 at night. That's just cultural. That's also the fact that things are different. And the other thing about Greg was that I learned, because this is what other guys told me, if Greg DePalma could be a beautiful sunny day, if Greg DePalmer called you up and he says, hey, Jack, I want you to come pick me up, bring the umbrella because it's going to rain. And you look at that sky. And there's not a cloud in the sky.

When you see Greg DePalmer, you better bring that umbrella. And you know why? Because it's going to rain because Greg said it was going to rain. And you don't question it. Is that blinded... Obedience. Obedience, exactly. And that's what went on, Jordan, which was really amazing compared to all the criminal groups that I've worked.

And I've done, like I said, so many of them, including bikers and everything. Nobody plays by those rules. It really is an amazing culture, that whole mob world. But listen, there's also so many fake things that the whole mob is. A lot of it is show, yeah, they don't work drugs. Everybody's been locked up for drugs. Just the list goes on and on. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Jack Garcia.

We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. I know I say that a lot, but I do mean it. To learn more and to get links to all the great discounts you heard, check out the deals for yourself and support the show. Go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. We've also got a worksheet for today's episode.

The link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. And now back to Jack Garcia on the Jordan Harbinger show. You became an undercover in the Italian, the Gambino family. This is an Italian family, but you're Cuban. So did you straight up say, all right, I'm Cuban, but I'm going to be Italian? Or were you like, I'm Italian now? I mean, how does that work? Wait, I'm not.

I don't know. I can argue with it. Remember George Kirstanza? He goes, I'm not an architect. What I mean I'm not? You know, no, what happened was the guy who was running the case, Nat Parisi, a great agent. He's Italian himself. And I did a couple of cases for him, drug cases.

So he calls me up and he says, listen, we got this situation in the strip club as being shaken down by some Albanians and, you know, possibly the mob is involved. We want you to get it. We're looking for a guy like you. We don't think he could do a job. And I said, well, you have me at strip club. Okay? So I'm in this thing.

So then he says, well, look, we want to have you pass you off as an Italian. I go, I can't pass off as an Italian because, you know, I've never thought that. As far as I was concerned, my parents only spoke Spanish. I grew up in a home speaking Spanish. I eat rice and beans and maduroes and plantains, everything. And I said, well, I don't know if I could pull this. He goes, yeah, you could pull it. I said, we're either going to have you as being half and half,

where your father would be or mother would be Italian and your other parent is going to be Cuban. Or we'll take another chance of make you totally Italian. So I went into this thing and I'm going, all right, so I could explain being Cuban and Italian in case it comes up. literally within the second meeting, the guy goes, yeah, you're Italian, right? What part of Italy are you from? So I went with it. I said, I'm from Sicily. He says, oh, yeah, you're a CG.

Okay, yeah, great. Nobody ever questioned who I was, you know? Subsequent when the case got taken down, these bad guys all over the place were called me the spec. How does this speak ever got in? But you know what it is? I was well prepared. The agent being Italian explained to me the different types of food.

how to pronounce those foods. So you don't go in there and say, yeah, I'll have some brasioli. And he goes, brazioli is brujol. And how to eat and order certain. Just like in the TV show of the office. Remember, you got any Gabagoo? You got any Gabagoole.

Remember that scene? Well, that's kind of you learn how to say it because we set up this whole identification of making me a third generation Sicilian who grew up in Miami, among the Cubans, and we had all of my friends, so-called friends with dope-dope dealers. I was in the drug trade and even had myself prepared with having informants that I had in Miami in the event that maybe somebody doubted who I was, these guys would vouch for me.

But I even took it a next step over. When I was down in Miami, I created that I looked at all the various cemeteries, and look for a Mr. and Mrs. Falcone. And I found them. So they would have been my parents. And why did I do that? Because of the fact that they are so distrustful, the last thing I needed, Jordan, is to them being down in Miami with me.

And the guy innocently says, hey, Big Jackie, I know you're from here. I know you lost your parents early on. Before we go to dinner, just go pay our respects to your parents. That would be nice, don't you think? What are you going to do then? Yeah, walk around the cemetery for three hours looking for people with the right name. Yeah, or else like, I don't know where they are. You know what I'm saying?

So I had it. I had a little like that. The only fear I had, maybe would have gotten some flowers and I've gone there and the suns, the old springs or the real Falcons were there and they go, who the hell are you? Yeah. You know? Yeah. But that, of course, never.

What are the odds of that? Yeah, exactly. That never happened. But you have to deal not like you do with the other groups, like the drug dealers and all of that. That stuff, they don't get into your personal life. They did. I actually had early on in the investigation, the old man comes up and goes, how would you like to get some union benefits?

So I joined the union, okay, that had... Like a construction worker union? It was a restaurant type union, server union. I think it was local 305, right? It had eyeglasses, dental, all medical, retirement. Okay, their benefits were better than the FBI benefits. Okay? That's how good they were.

And what I was into and I was paying for that with that because that's what they care about. And I had to fill out a form. Now, after I fill it out, what did the old man came back to? It was, Jackie Boy, you know, we got to be careful. So I checked you out. You're cool. You're fine. But I guarantee you they took the date of birth.

I took the social. All of the stuff that they did was checking me out. And they have to do that for fear of infiltration. informants because of my role. How I came in to be in this case was we had an informant who was well liked and respected by these guys. He bought me in as an investor, as a friend of the club that he owned the strip call. So I came out of nowhere. It was, it's just like in the mob, it's kind of like in Goodfellas, you know, when the little kid opens the door, wearing his suit, he goes, as long as I can be far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster.

So it's one of those situations that I did. And I wanted to be careful. I want to make sure my eyes were dotted. I wanted to make sure my T's were crossed because the last thing I needed to do is, you know, make one mistake and it be a fatal one. Sure. I mean, I understand playing an Italian for Asian gangsters, Russian gangsters, and playing Cuban for Italians.

But playing Italian for Italians, that's the, you are just right on the line. If you say marinara instead of marinerara or whatever, it's over. Right. But see, I had that covered not only because I went to the training that I had beforehand, but also I thought like you that in the mom, yes, they're Italian. You have to be Italian to be in proposed for membership. The associates could be any kind, women, whatever. But I was kind of careful of bringing out too much.

but the Italian part, I felt I did it because all of these guys didn't speak Italian. These were Americanized guys. This is a whole generation. Keep in mind, the mob started when in the 30s. So a lot of these guys are either old timers, which were few and dying off. And then these were the sons or other new guys. So you see what I'm saying? I wasn't going there and sitting in a bunch of guys who were thought,

I've never recalled in my almost three years anybody talking Italian at any mob meeting or so after. Oh. They were Americanized. They were Italian, but they were Americanized. So that makes sense. And especially I would imagine, you know, your Cuban accent is cover if you're from Cuba. Not a lot of people maybe know about it. But if you were Mexican, people could backstop you more easily, right?

Because they can just put people down there. They've got roots down there. But did you find that Cuba itself had less ties to organized crime? because Castro kind of put a hard stop between everything when the regime changed? Well, first of all, I never told these guys I was Cuban. As far as they're concerned, I was born in the U.S. But as far as the Cuba thing was concerned, is remember, Cuba before Castro was run by corruption and by the mob.

So Castro came in with the premise that he was going to free and liberate Cuba from the mob and corruption, and in turn, he went to bed ride with the Russian. So mobsters wise, as far as the concern, I never told him that was Cuba. but I did tell them I grew up in Miami, as you know, which is predominantly Cuban, and there I grew up with the Cuban. So I picked up a couple of words here and there. Just down there, there's actual signs in Miami that say, we speak English. So it's foreseeable that maybe had a little accent because I was around.

I told them my girlfriends and my wife was Cuban, you know, all of that stuff. So it was kind of believable with that. And listen, no one suspected it. And like I said, much later on, it came out that they were kind of disappointed. And I guess that was the big slap in the face to the mob, the fact that an FBI agent and a Cuban-born FBI agent was able to infiltrate them and was going to be proposed for membership. I mean, that's a direct slap in the face. I mean, if you look at Joe Costone and Donnie Brascoe, he's a town. But, you know, I'm not.

And yet I didn't find that to be, nobody ever said to me, hey, you Cuban, you know, I said, what are you? You're not Italian. You know, no one said that to me. Yeah, yeah, interesting. I know you got in with the boss. Of course, you become an associate. Did they give you a diamond pinky ring? Is that a part of the, either you gave one or you got one?

I can't remember that. I got one. It wasn't a pinkering. It was the most courteous ring. It had some diamond in it. The captain, when he put me, basically, what they first do is they put you on record. And that just means that, hey, I own you. Okay.

That's what that means. Like, for instance, if you own a restaurant or right now, your show, if you're with the mob, I say, hey, Jordan, you're on record with us. That means we protect you. Nobody could shake you down. But yeah, we could shake you down, but you're on record with us. So I got put on record with the Gambino crime family, and he gave me this ring, which was the gaudiest thing I've ever seen in my life. I wore in my pocket, but when I saw the old man, I put it on. Because one's going to say, where's the ring?

I said, oh, yeah, yeah. But anyway, that was the introduction. Not everybody does that. I mean, that's just what he did that with me. And then after that, what happens is after you prove yourself, some guys are associates for years and years, and never ever get proposed. What happened much later on, he felt I'd met the requirements

of what it is to be a wise guy. And that's a guy who keeps his mouth shut, a guy who makes money and kicks the money up, a guy who could do time and a guy who is capable of virus. All of those are the things that require you to get straight now. He came to me and he says, I'm going to get you proposed. And he asked me, are you involved in any drug traffic? I says, Greg, you know I was a day, because I don't care about what you did. you can't be involved in any drug traffic, at least for the last five years, any issues with it.

I said, no, no, no problem. Why is that again? Well, what they have a rule, at least it was with the Gambino's, that if you're a drug dealer, okay, or were a drug dealer, you couldn't have been for the last five years. And that's because of the statute of limitation. They don't want you to get collared on a drug caper you did three years ago and maybe have that be influenced the flip. in you. But that's the irony of that is it's a lie because there were many guys who were drug dealers. And as long as they hand the envelopes, what they do is they totally block it out of their heads.

They don't go and say, well, what did you get this money? How did you get this? Did you do it? They'll accept whatever money and if you get caught, you're on your own. So that was his first priority. And then he says that they were going to put my name on the list, which they did. And that list is passed around to all the family. And that says Jack Fawker, and the list the way it works, you list a person and the year that they died. So let's say Joey Bagadonis, he died in 1998. So now I'm going to be replacing Joey Bagadones because there's certain numbers that they are allowed to have. And that list is spread. The reason they spread that list, they want to say, you know anything about this guy? Is this guy a

pervert. Is this guy previously on record with another family? Is this guy a rat? Anything that once you clear that obstacle, you then get put in to like, okay, you're going to get straightened down, and then that day will come, and the day all the family bosses are there, the captains, you're in separate rooms, would everybody else get made? You go down individually. they cut your finger, blood, and drips into a saint, a religious mask card. You light it on fire and you say, may I burn in hell like this saint if I betray my family, and you take this oath over Murta, which is the oath of a vow silence. So that's the process.

I only made it to my list going around, and the reason being things were put on hold because Joe Messino, who was the boss of the Bonanos, decided to cooperate. So things kind of froze and also a decision made by the FBI, which I viewed as very short-sighted, and they pulled the operation because they felt we had enough mofsters and they didn't really want to devote the continuation of the case. Sure. Which, you know, myself and the United States attorneys and the other guys work in the case were fighting that battle, but we lost. And of course, we took the case down. Yeah, I know they took the

case down. And we can talk a little bit more about that in a bit. I am curious, though, what is the list on? I assume they're not using Google Docs or Microsoft Word. I mean, where do they keep the list? What's the list? Is it an actual document? Yeah, it's an actual paper document with the names. In fact, a list was found in John Gotti Jr., money, along with the money they sees hidden somewhere like in the basement or something. So that's what the list is. You see it. The boss or the street boss goes around tells everybody, hey, you know this guy? They're thinking about him straightening the mouth. And then, of course, they get rid of it. But every once in a while, these lists. So if you even Google Mafia, as you'll see the list that was found, I believe,

in John Gotti Jr.'s home that listed about seven or eight names. My name is not on there because this is pre-me. But that's how the list works. their own, you know, system in place because they don't want to have any insults with it. But usually it's a rubber stamp because by then they should know what kind of guy you are. And by being on record, meaning is that you could have been working with the Lucasi crime family and then you left for whatever reason and then you're now with the Gambinos. You need to answer that. Like, well, why did you come here?

What didn't you tell us then? And then there could be a situation with the Lucases if they evaluate you as being a guy who made a lot of money. They may claim you and say, well, you're not going to be one of those. You're going to be one of us. You know, so that's how it works. As we reach 400 episodes of the show and well over a decade of podcasting, I keep thinking about which have been some of my favorite episodes in which you'll enjoy the most that you might have missed.

Stick around for the end of the show to hear my final thoughts on this episode with Jack Garcia. But before I get into that, here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger show. He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a palette, arrange it on a canvas? I began to unlock the secrets. I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion, presented to a experienced expert, manipulate his mind. and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine.

We flooded the market with my paintings, and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling, and eventually the FBI were led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me. But they never actually got you. At this point, you've sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold one painting for 717,000.

Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? How are we having this conversation? I guess that's the greatest story of all. To hear how Ken Perennie made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI. Subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger Show and check out episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

or wherever you're listening now. Now, I really love this episode with Joaquin Garcia. This is the end of part one. We've actually got a lot more coming in part two. This guy's got stories for days, and he was a fun conversation. As you can tell, this guy was a fun conversation, and I'm excited for part two. So stay tuned for part two coming up right here on the Jordan Harbinger show. Links to Joaquin's book will be linked in the show notes.

If you do buy books from any guests on the show, please do use our website links. It helps support the show. Worksheets for this episode in the show notes, transcripts in the show notes, and there's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems, using tiny habits over at our six-minute networking course, which is free over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course.

Dig that well before you get thirsty. Most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course in the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. Get those people skills like Jack Garcia. This show is created in association with Podcast One and my amazing team, including Jen Harbinger, J. Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show, this free show, is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. So if you know somebody who's interested in the mafia, the FBI, under cover work, maybe even just the people's skills involved or a great story, share this episode with him. Hopefully you find something great in every episode. please do share the show with those you care about.

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