The Jordan Harbinger Show - 406: My Custody Battle with an Escort Ex | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: September 18, 2020

You wound up fathering a child during a relationship with an escort-turned-very-wealthy madam, but struggle with constant custody battles since you're not the one running a cash-only business. How can you ensure justice prevails for the sake of your child -- who endured quite a few possibly traumatic "bring your kid to work" days in your ex's care? We'll tackle this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/406 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: How can you communicate effectively and convey emotion through a mask in the age of COVID-19? How can you prevail in a custody battle with your wealthy escort-turned-madam ex when legal fees are bankrupting you? Even though it's a life goal, you don't feel ready to accept the role of CFO you've been offered and it's filling you with dread instead of elation. How do you proceed cautiously without blowing a possibly once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Your mother-in-law gets jealous if you and your spouse spend too much time with your family, and it causes friction at home. What can you do to make her realize that closeness with your family is not a crime? As a manager, you find that if you give your senior-level employees too much direction, they don't like being micromanaged. But if you're not super specific with your expectations, they tend to drop the ball and not manage their time well. How do you strike the right balance in leadership? In the workplace, how do you change subjects gracefully when you feel uncomfortable with someone oversharing or asking intrusive questions? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. And if you want to keep in touch with former co-host and JHS family Jason, find him on Twitter at @jpdef and Instagram at @JPD, and check out his other show: Grumpy Old Geeks. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. And today I'm here with my Feedback Friday, my FBF, BFF, slash producer Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people. And we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, on Fridays we give advice to you and answer listener questions

the rest of the week. We've got long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers for a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests, popular topics, and other suggestions, because everyone asks what they should listen to first. Go to Jordan Harbinger.com. We'll hook you up right there. This week we had Guy Raz of how I built this fame, discussing his path through journalism, and now he's like the Oprah of entrepreneurship, and we all said Harry Hirstie. He takes us through how secure or how insecure our voting technology really is, and explains how he found the vulnerabilities, what's been fixed so far and what hasn't, and what we as citizens can do

about this to ensure the integrity of our elections and of our democracy. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com, please keep your emails concise. Try to include a descriptive subject line. The ones that say, hey, feedback Friday question, those, they all blur together and that's really annoying. So that makes our job a lot easier if you can make a real subject. Now, a lot of people have been asking about communication tips with masks on how to make your emotions come through, your communications more clear while you're wearing a mask, just briefly. One, and this is the most important one. Over-emote with your voice and your face will follow. So kind of overact, especially if you are the type of person that thinks, oh, I'm not really that kind of guy or that

kind of guy. Do it. Overact. Your emotions will follow. Your face will follow. Two, enunciate more. It's a little similar to the above, but do it almost freakishly, almost freakishly, and you will find it easier to communicate. Three, louder volume because your mouth is covered. Yes, it's a little thin piece of cloth, you'd be surprised how much that can make you muffled and or just a little bit quieter, especially if you're already quiet. Four, maybe speak a little bit slower. Like, if you're a fast talker like me, speak a little bit slower. That will help people understand you in five, especially for men. A slightly higher pitch or register will travel a little bit better. Like I said, especially men with lower voices that can get muffled easily. Speak a little bit louder,

speak a little bit higher, enunciate a little bit more, and over, you'll be, moat with your voice and your face will follow, especially your eyes, eyebrows, et cetera. You got to remember to smile with your eyes. Now, this is something that a lot of people have asked me if you need to hear it again. Rewind. I don't want to repeat it because we got a long show today and question number one is ridiculous. So Gabe, why don't you take us through? Good day, Jordan. When I was younger, I had some confusion between lust and love. I generally try to see the good in people and I ended up dating an escort turned madam. The relationship never worked out due to conflicting value but we had a child during our on-and-off relationship. After a long, drawn-out legal battle with his mother,

I'm now a single father to a wonderful seven-year-old boy, and I've had him full-time since he was 14 months. But it's pretty clear that I've upset the wrong multimillionaire. I've already gone through three lawyers and have spent the last few years being self-represented, as my legal tally over this ordeal has already topped $490,000. My ex has appealed to seek full custody multiple times and hasn't been successful. through multiple trials and appearances the judges have awarded me full custody and said, I am a better fit for the child as in the earlier years,

mom would do a bring your son to workday in a not very child-friendly environment. Oh, my God. Her brothels. So she's bringing the kid to the brothel? Yikes. Ah, 490 grand. So half a million dollars

to convince the court that a kid probably shouldn't be going to brothels instead of school or on weekends or whatever. That sounds like the situation. Yuck. I'm currently being taken to court yet again over issues such as child support. Because she's in a lucrative cash business, I've always been on the defense and interested in downside mitigation. I've never really sought child support as I'm professionally employed in a technical field and I do all right.

I just want to enjoy parenthood. I want to prepare the child for the road ahead, but as this enters year seven of continued conflict, I'm feeling defeated and tired. Do you have any recommendations or pointers on where I should take this journey next as my son grows up? He's now asking questions like, why do you go to work, Dad? Mom and her entire family don't work, and they can buy multiple houses and anything I want. Why are you so poor? Damn, that's ice cold, man. I'm also concerned about our child and his development. There is a lot of animosity between his mother and me. I try to encourage the relationship he has with her, although I'm afraid it's not often reciprocated. I've had a psychologist involved in my son's life since he was three, and I hope to build a network for therapy as the vast

differences in lifestyle and upbringing will lead to many questions I may not be equipped to answer. So what should I do? Sincerely stuck between trying to dad and a courtroom. Yeah, yikes. This is so awful. I feel so bad for the kid. And I feel bad for this guy, obviously. I want to preface this answer with the idea that sex workers are not all evil, horrible people that shouldn't have kids or something. But I will say here that this particular mom sounds pretty awful. I realize we're only getting one side of this story, but it's pretty rough because there is a kid stuck in the middle here. And the whole take your kid to workday thing, totally not cool. I mean, look, some people hit desperate times, got to do desperate messengers or make different moral decisions than me, but like I think we can all really agree that a kid shouldn't be around

there, not even because the mom and her colleagues are bad, but the guys that walk in there to patronize this are not necessarily going to be just the most upstanding members of society. I realize it takes a large variety of clients in that kind of business. However, you get the bottom as well as the top, and I don't know if I'd want my kid there. And it's a cash business. So those places get robbed a lot sometimes depending on security. I mean, it's just not a safe place for a kid to be generally. Most types of nightlife environments aren't, really.

So I am so sorry that you're in this position, fighting for your son over and over again when you're clearly the more responsible parent in this situation. And I'm also sorry that you made the choices you did back then, if I can frame it that way. I don't mean to shame you. And I don't want to turn you into an example here, but it would be a little disingenuous of me

not to recognize that getting involved with this woman was a profound mistake. And look, I assume that the writer agrees with me, Gabriel. I don't think I'm telling him anything he doesn't know, half a million dollars later in all the sleepless nights and pain and, you know, trauma and trouble. And if anyone listening to this is dating somebody seriously questionable, please use your instincts and your better judgment. Once you have a child with someone like this, you're tied to them for a minimum of 18 years, but really forever and could very well end up. seriously, serious, serious legal trouble in battles that take over your entire life. It's really hard to imagine until you hear a story like this. And again, I say that not because of the nature of

this woman's work, but because of the way she's exposed her son to it from just a, obviously, way too early of an age, the way she's used considerable resources to take him away from his dad, even when the courts have decided that he's the more fit parent. And look, I get it. I'd probably do the same thing. But let's be real here. She's using money on which she's not being taxed because her business is illegal. We obviously omitted some info here, but for, and for obvious reasons. But let's just say this is not in one of the limited jurisdictions where prostitution is a legal and regulated profession. Okay. That said, you have emerged from this situation with a wonderful kid, and I can tell you really love him. He's very lucky to have you as a dad. Honestly, you sound like a

dedicated and thoughtful father. You're trying your best to minimize the damage this situation has caused, and I commend you for that. The truth is, though, there's no easy answer to your question about what to do next. You're going to have to weather the storm for a while, keep your sanity, take care of yourself, make sure you're working out and getting son and all that stuff, take care of your money as best as you can, protect your son from the worst of it, because he really needs you right now. You're his best shot. you are his only grounding to kind of normal people land, normal people life. I'm glad that you're fighting for him and he will eventually be as well. The best thing you can do is focus on being a good dad to your son.

He's going to have a better life if he has two parents who love him and treat him well and meet his emotional needs than if his parents are fighting all the time. And I know you can't control the way that his mom behaves, but you can control the way that you behave. You got to create a home that's loving. that's open, that's peaceful, make him feel safe in your company. Don't go out of your way to disparage his mom, which must be really hard not to do. I would be so tempted, and it would be perfectly understandable, but it won't make the situation better. Do all the things that a dad should do under

normal circumstances. Play with him, talk to him, care for him, ask him questions, answer his questions, help him with his homework, teach him, hang out with him. Sometimes you have to do the extraordinary work with his mom for custody, but the rest of the time, just stay focused on doing the ordinary work of being a good father. Gabe, what do you think about answering these questions? I mean, it would be pretty irritating to hear how crime boss mom was buying his affection at age seven, further confusing the situation. It just kind of pisses me off even hearing about it. Gabe, your mom's a whore. Tell me what you think. Let me speak from experience. Now, I have no personal experience with this, but I can say that

kids are really smart, right? They're observant, they're intuitive, they know what's going on, even if they can't fully verbalize it. They know when something is off. Your son might not fully understand what's going on right now, but he's going to get it pretty soon. And lying to him or pretending that the situation that you're in isn't what it is, I think that's going to mess your son up more than just being honest. The last thing you want to do is create distrust with him, especially as the, you know, the best parent that he has in this situation. So I would answer your questions honestly, but, and this is important, sensitively, because you don't want to be so honest with a seven-year-old child that you end up talking shit about his mom and, you know, poisoning the well

when he's like talking to you about what his mom bought him this weekend at the Westfield, and you're like, you know, mommy's a hoe, you know, like you don't want to do that, right? Mommy sells her body for money to strangers. Yeah, that's not going to work. And that's why you have a new Louis Vuitton scarf. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why he would be buying him a Louis Vuitton scarf, but that's all the kids, all the rage these days. Nobody, who cares about Minecraft. Every seven-year-old had us. But you do want to be forthright. I would aim for vague but truthful answers, you know, something like mom does go to work. She has a job that's a little bit hard to explain. She works in the evenings. She probably goes to work after you go to bed.

You could also tell your son when he asks you questions, you know, that's something you should probably talk to your mom about. And then when he's older and he can grasp the situation better, you can get into more detail if that's appropriate. Again, if he hasn't figured it out already. One specific thing I do recommend is to continue investing in therapy for your son. I'm really glad to hear that there's a psychologist involved here. I think that's key. I'm also glad they're involved because taking a child to a brothel could be considered psychological abuse, if not sexual abuse, depending on what actually went down there. I don't mean to raise a ton of alarms if nothing happened. Hopefully nothing happened. Hopefully he was, I don't know, watching Sailor Moon on his iPad in the waiting room or whatever, but who knows what he saw,

right? To your point, Jordan, it's not just about the people who work there. It's the the people who come in who go out, stuff that goes down there, whatever. So honestly, I'm more concerned with the clientele because her mom is in charge and knows all the women that work there. And she knows if one of them has like a drug issue, she can be like, you're out of here or do that and you're, you know, I got my kid here. You can't control who walks into the door of any business. And an illegal business doesn't have the same recourse of somebody walked in from a gang and

is being crazy and doing drugs out in the open and calling the cops. Exactly. You know, it's just a different scenario. Yes, they have security there probably, but it's just, it's, I probably don't have to belabor at this point, right? People probably agree. And to be fair, we don't know what the circumstances were. You know, it could have been one afternoon when she couldn't find a nanny and she put him in the lobby with somebody she trusted one time and that became an issue. I don't. If something more serious did go down there and child protective services had to intervene, the psychologist, the psychologist, could make that happen. I hope they don't. But the situation is freaking bananas. So who knows. I also feel very strongly that you, dad, you need a therapist. That's a good point. I love this. Of all the people that need therapy, the kid is not the only one in this scenario. No. That needs someone to talk to besides two strangers on the internet.

Totally. I think it's safe to say that everybody in this situation could use one. You're going through a lot right now. You have a lot of experiences and a lot of feelings to unpack. And at some point, you're going to have to have some pretty difficult conversations with your son. I would encourage you to do family therapy with him when the time is right to handle those conversations and hopefully strengthen your relationship. Also, I would add that you should continue to work on yourself through all of

this, not just for your own growth and mental health, but for your sons. I mentioned before going and working out and getting some son, but kind of tongue-in-cheek, but for real, the biggest question I have is, what drew you to this woman in the first place? You mentioned that you try to see the best in people, that you confused lust with love. I think it's great you see the best in people, but I do wonder if you aren't seeing reality as it is, but some version of reality. I'm not going on full info here, so take it with a gran of sell, take it for what it's worth. I don't know you, but you might be idealizing people, especially women, or choosing to only see the qualities you really want to see, or almost, instead of seeing the good in everyone, only

seeing the good in everyone and sort of throwing everything else out, seeing the best in people can be a virtue, sure, and you're probably a super nice guy. I feel like everyone deserves a friend like you, but in the extreme, it can be a form of blindness, and it can be a very dangerous blindness that led you into the situation that you are in right now. You should work on this, because you could, I know you're sort of saying, well, I'm never going to date again. To hell with it. It's been too much trouble. You could pass this on to your son. You could pass this on to your little boy. You want him to be able to see the good and the bad in people. You want him to be able to hold space for the considerable gray area that exists in life. One day he'll be dating and choosing a

partner. You better believe that the template that he inherits from you is going to play a huge role in those decisions. And at the end of the day, you cannot control what mom does. or what she says or how she interacts with him. And I know that that's frustrating. I'm frustrated for you, but it's true. What you can control is what you do for your son. Be your best self. Work through all your own stuff.

Be there for him. Work through your trauma. Work through your issues. That's what's going to make you a good parent who doesn't pass on, I don't know, this is a bit of an overstep, but generational trauma, right, to your son. That's your job right now. Fix that.

Plug the hole in the hull, right? so that it doesn't end up with the next generation. That and make sure that the next woman you date is very different than what you ended up with in the first place. You're listening to Feedback Friday here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. And now back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger show. All right, Gabe, what's next?

Hey, guys. I've worked in professional services for almost 20 years. In that time, I've grown as a person and developed my personal and professional skills largely with the help of your show. fact, I've moved from Ireland to Australia to challenge myself to build my life, my network, my way of living, and my career down under. One of my goals is to become a CFO or a CEO over the next five to 10 years. Yesterday, I put a two-year plan together, broken down into six-month slots, focusing on three

areas, permanent residency, financial independence, and skills and experience. Under skills and experience, I put a line around a second-sacconment role as a CFO to really live the position and get some experience. Wait a second. What's secondment? I know this from corporate time, but I know that most people don't know what that is. I believe that secondment means doing kind of like second duty or collateral duty, like a part-time professional position alongside your existing duties. Yeah, I think it varies. Like as a lawyer, what it meant was, let's say that I'm working at a law firm and Visa is our major client and I'm running the client. My firm will send me to Visa to work in-house with them, even though I actually kind of work for the firm.

Yes. And I'm not exactly sure how this works, but I think I'm actually a visa employee, but then after the contract ends, I just go back to my law firm and work there. It serves to enhance the relationship. So a lot of people don't really, it's kind of, think of it for an exchange. You're like an exchange student, only it's a job. I like that. Corporate exchange.

I think that's kind of what it is. Yeah. So he puts a line around that. This is really important to him. He wants to be a CFO. Then today, I got an email from two partners who thought I would be a great fit as a CFO for a multi-billion dollar organization. My first thought was how coincidental this was, followed by an immediate thought of overwhelm and dread that I am not the right person, I am not

capable, and I could never do this. I've worked with a lot of small, medium, and large organizations, but never at this scale or in such a senior role, which I would need to fill for 12 months. While this is a huge opportunity, I don't really see myself being capable, which goes against most of my work, my personality, my growth mindset. So what advice would you give if you were in this opportunity. How can I figure out why I'm thinking like this and how to work with it or work around it, particularly given that this is not normally me. I really appreciate your advice on this first world problem. Love your work and all you do, yours overwhelmed and underqualified. Well, good old imposter syndrome. First of all, congratulations. You're taking your career seriously.

And it sounds like you're being super disciplined, super focused. You're taking big risks that are calculated and now they're paying off in a major way. So you should be really proud of yourself. I'm excited for you. I think there are a few things going on here. So let's try and pick each one of these apart just a little bit. The first thing is that you are definitely wrestling with some healthy imposterism and some not so healthy imposter syndrome. You've invested a ton in yourself. You've grown a lot, but now you're considering a role that's going to be a little bit of a leap for you. And I don't mean that in an unrealistic way. I just mean a big jump. And that highlights the places you still need to grow. And by the way, this is totally normal. This is supposed to happen. This is the part

that's healthy imposterism. In other words, the places where you really are a little bit of an imposter. And wait for it, I'm going to qualify that. You just need to level up in order to perform. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. It just means you need to be able to get to that next level. Your fingers are just touching that brass ring, right? This is a good thing. This kind of imposterism, this visits anybody who is ambitious because you're always reaching beyond your current capabilities knowing that you can pull yourself up

to the next level by getting to that position and getting the resources and getting the training and then making yourself at home there. Where imposter syndrome kicks in is when you feel like a complete and utter fraud, you don't belong there at all, you can't imagine yourself in any situation

deserving the opportunities that are coming your way. And when you feel like everyone's going to, it's just a matter of time they're going to find you out and they're going to laugh at you as you run out the door with, you know, your picture frame in one hand and like your plant in the other hand, that's the only thing you can carry out of the office, right, as you're laughed out of the building. In a nutshell, imposter syndrome develops when you fail to internalize all of the awesome accomplishments up until now. So you start working really hard to hide the vulnerability that's beneath those accomplishments. In other words, the more raw person,

inside the high performer who knows that he still has things to learn, still has places to grow, still has skills to master, which if you can't already tell, is literally every single person with big goals. So it's like a, Gabe, what am I looking for? It's like a cognitive gap, right, with imposter syndrome where you think, uh-oh, I'm a fraud, I don't deserve this. It's not fake it till you make it. You start just being like, oh, yeah, I totally deserve all this, but inside you're just freaking terrified, right? Whereas imposterism is like, I'm almost, there. I just need to work on my communication and I need to get good at these software programs and then I've got to work on skilling up in these three areas and I should be fine. Imposter syndrome is when

you're like, holy crap, this is all going to crumble. Am I right? Am I on the right track here? 100%. It's when that false self starts to develop to protect the more vulnerable self that's really inside. Yep. So the scary thing about imposter syndrome is that it can actually hold you back from pursuing things that you 100% would be great for. So this incredible opportunity, to work as the CFO of a multi-billion dollar company. I don't want you to feel bad about this opportunity at all. So here's what I recommend. One, own your experience, own your expertise, own your talent.

Don't discount those. Write those things down. I don't care if you have to get out a journal and diary or whatever. Talk about them with friends. Talk about them with family. Talk about them with trusted colleagues. Start to see these accomplishments as your own, as things you've done that have prepared you for this moment, right?

It almost reminds me of those movies where it's like, but I can't do this and it's like everything, like the voice in the cave, right, from Superman, like everything you've done so far has prepared you for this day. Two, notice when you're hiding the parts of you that are still in need of development. And this could be knowledge, skills, emotional intelligence.

Hell, it could be mental health, relationships, connections, really, anything. Imposter syndrome developed around the more tender parts of our psyche. The more you deny them, the more the ego actually feels the need to create the imposter, the ego shield, to protect them, which is why it starts to fear the possibility of being found out, right? Because the gap is real at that point, or feels more real, but also exists because you're making it, you're actually feeding the gap, you're actually widening it by trying to hide

it. That doesn't mean you need to go around highlighting these parts to everyone all the time. It just means that acknowledging these aspects of yourself to yourself and putting in the work to grow them rather than trying to figure out clever ways to hide them. And you're not alone with this. I feel like this was a Wall Street staple imposter syndrome. And that's one reason why a lot of the people there are kind of insufferable, because you have to be like, yeah, I know everything and I'm so awesome. And, you know, I stay up all night trying to outwork everyone and pulling the wool.

I'm fooling. I've got everybody fooled. I'm the smartest guy in the room. there's a lot of that on Wall Street and in corporate positions generally. Third, invest in the areas in which you find a little bit of weakness. And hell, invest in pretty much everything, but especially the areas that you need to build up. Figure out which skills you need to hone as the CFO. Build relationships with the people who are going to help you succeed. Colleagues, friends, coaches, counselors, other CFOs, put together a learning plan. The books you need to read, the courses you need to take,

if any, the interviews you're going to need to read or listen to. In other words, develop a mini-CFO crash course for yourself in preparation. And I think you can get some of those clues by asking other CFOs as well. This is how you're going to bridge the healthy imposterism by honestly recognizing the places you really are a quote-unquote fraud. And I'm smiling as I say this if you're not watching us on YouTube. And then doing the work to become an expert in those areas and shore up those weaknesses. And finally, go into this interview with all of those parts of you. You can be the smart, ambitious, experienced guy who's gotten to this point, and you can be the guy who's got some serious work to do to rise to the occasion. That's how you short-circuit imposter syndrome.

Show up with both halves of you rather than clinging to the one that feels safe. And spoiler alert, the people interviewing you are going to respond much more strongly to the person who comes across as vulnerable and authentic, and I'm so sorry for using those words. I kind of hate them, but in this case, they are actually true. Do that show up as that rather than the person who's working really hard to come across is perfect and hide everything else, because bear in mind, for a lot of interviews, is it, Gabriel, what is that thing? It's like the airplane, not the airplane rule, the airline lounge rule among consultants. Oh, sure. Yeah, I remember that. What am I talking about right now? Tell me about this. You're talking about that quality people look for

like, yeah, is he smart? Is he ambitious? Is he talented? But would I actually want to, to hang out with him in an airport if we were stuck on a layover or something like that? Yeah, yeah. It's like, would I want to be stuck with this person in an air line lounge for 12 hours or in a motel for a month as consultants really are routinely stuck? They're not looking for perfection because a person who's trying to portray perfection is going to be the absolute worst, most annoying person that you're going to want to stab with your sharpened toothbrush at 4 o'clock in the morning if you're stuck with them for

any length of time. They're going to want the person who comes in and says, yeah, I've got this, but like, do I know everything? No, I've got a lot of work to do. They want to see somebody who's a reflection of themselves and on equal footing, not somebody who's trying to pretend that they're, you know what, don't stink because those people are terrible. We did a deep dive on this, episode 127, and we did an article on this, which I'll link in the show notes to this episode, or you can just find it by searching the site. It's actually called How to Stop Feeling Like an Imposter. say, I love how you're open and self-aware about this. That's actually going to be your greatest asset, I think. So good luck on the interview. All right, Gabe, what's next? Hey, Jays. My mother-in-law is one of

the few reasons my husband and I fight. Ever since my husband's parents got divorced, they have struggled with family balance. My mother-in-law constantly gets jealous if we spend too much time with my family, and even guilt trips my husband if she doesn't hear from him regularly. Recently, she's insisted that he call her back specifically when I'm not around just to invite my husband over alone. Both of our families are equally important to us. My family is simply closer in distance and as a whole. What can I do to make her realize that my family's closeness is not a crime, sincerely fed up and family-oriented?

Ah, mothers-in-law, you can't live with them? And you can't live with them. Yeah, unless you get really lucky, which I hear happens sometimes. Actually, in my case, it did. I know not everyone's that lucky. My mother-in-law is great. They come over pretty much every day. They often bring dinner.

they sometimes want to give Jaden a bath or just want to hang out or they're like, I'll come out of the studio and it'll be like, oh, careful, I'm mopping the floor. I mean, I love it. It's great. We're all kind of tight. But it sounds like your mother-in-law has some issues of her own to work out. She's probably, look, I feel a little bad, right? She's probably still reeling from her divorce.

Being alone at that age is not fun, struggling to stay connected to her changing family, and clearly jealous of her son, slash envious of you. the person she thinks is taking her son away. I mean, I don't get it. Maybe I will when Jaden gets older, but you did want your son to get married someday, right? Like, what did you think was going to happen? Like, I just don't really understand that.

It is unfair, it's dysfunctional, but it is kind of, it is what it is. So first, maybe the direct approach, Gabe, I'm going to throw this to you in a bit, but I would consider discussing this openly with your mother-in-law. You could call her on the phone, you could take her out to lunch and just have an open conversation.

Tell her that, look, you love her son, you're so grateful for the awesome family that she created and you want her to be a part of your very busy lives. And then tell her that you can't help but notice that she has a very strong reaction when you spend time with your family. And ask her why. Let her tell you her experience in her own words

and mirror that experience back to her. Listen to her, make her feel understood before you try to change the way that she thinks. and that will go a very long way. If she copse to the jealousy, which is great. I mean, props to her if she does that. Help her process it. Maybe you can reassure her that you're not trying to take away her son.

Maybe you can point out that you can spend time with her and with your family and that there's plenty of love to go around. And you don't want to feel like there's a price to pay for spending time with your own family. There really shouldn't be. That's a little bit weird. I think she just kind of feels left out. You know, she feels jealous and left out and alone. That's not a good combination.

And if she seems receptive to all that, maybe you can tell her that when she gets jealous, it makes you want to spend even less time with her. I would be very careful about how you frame that. You don't want to upset her, but you also don't want to feel like you're upsetting her when you go visit your other family and then she's all mad. So if you've built some trust here and she's even a little bit open,

then hearing those words from you could be just what she needs to change her whole outlook. She might not even realize how damaging her jealousy and her envy actually are. I think most people don't. And by the way, this conversation, probably going to be most effective and safe with your husband there. I mean, he's her son after all. Maybe she'll be more willing to acknowledge the truth if she hears it from both of you,

if he doesn't wimp out in the moment, which is totally possible. That's up to you, though. Maybe talking privately, woman to woman will actually make her more receptive, it just depends on what kind of person she is, you're going to have to make that call. Whatever you do, talk about it with your husband first. You do not want him to undermine you five minutes after you leave and, you know, your mother-in-law calls him and says, you'll never believe this. And he's like, what? I can't believe it. You know, you don't want that to happen. Come up with a plan together, get on the same page, and find a way for you both to help your mother-in-law move past this.

Gabe, what about the other side of this? You know, it's interesting. When my parents got married, my mom had some pretty serious issues with her mother-in-law. From what I understand, she was super possessive, she was kind of demanding, she was sometimes even kind of rude to everyone in the house. I don't know, I was a kid. I don't even know if I was there yet. But at a certain point, my mom just kind of had to draw a line and accept that she couldn't change her mother-in-law. And now, 20 years later, 20 years after my parents got divorced, they are super close friends. And she's more of a mom to my mom than my mom's own mom. So I just throw that out there to say that there's definitely hope for people to evolve. I like Jordan's direct approach a lot. I think it's definitely worth a shot. It might actually be the

right solution. But the other option here is to not try to resolve this at all and just accept that your mother-in-law might just be unhappy for a long while, maybe forever. And that might actually be the best move if she seems absolutely unwilling to talk about any of this. But that's why I do think it's important to at least try to have the conversation first, just so you know for sure. If she won't change, then you might just have to draw that boundary and accept that she'll always be upset. that's on her. It's not on you. I know it's hard. I know she's in your lives. She's competing, frankly, with you for your husband's attention, which is problematic and pretty messy. But so much of life is about, you know, accepting other people's dysfunction, drawing a line and going,

you know, that's a you thing. And I'm sorry, that's how you want to be, but I'm just going to have to keep hanging out with my awesome family. And if you come around, you come around, and when you do, we'll all be happy to have you join us. Ultimately, she's the one who's going to be losing out, which is really too bad. The part of this conflict that is between your husband and his mother, though, that's a little bit more complicated. You say that she guilt trips him if she doesn't hear from him regularly. That's an example of a problem that exists between him and her, even if it affects you. So if you were to bring that up in your conversation with her, it might be dipping into business that isn't entirely yours. So I would leave room for your husband to do the work that is his.

You don't have to solve everybody's business all at once. That said, if her relationship with her son comes up organically in that conversation, it could be a really good opportunity to help her work through that as well. You could say something like, you know, I notice that you get mad when you don't hear from your son a lot. But I think maybe he isn't calling you as much lately because he thinks that you're going to get angry at him for spending time with my family. So do you see how that might make him want to call you a little bit less? You know, asking questions like that is a good way to help her see the problem without you having to be too antagonistic. I do have a book recommendation. I just happen to be reading this book. It's called Silently Seduced when parents make

children partners. I'm assuming a few things. I don't know the full story. Creepy. It is a little icky, and that's kind of the point of the whole book. It's not about actual romantic relationships between parents and children, although we all know that that happens. It's actually about something more subtle when parents start to partner with their children emotionally in ways that the parent and the child don't even realize. It's like that emotionally enmeshed concept, right? Is that what that is? I've heard of that. That would be one example of a larger template that this book is talking about. again, I'm not saying that this is what's going on with your husband and his mom, but it does sound like the two of them have a complicated relationship. And there are probably a few layers there that they need to work through themselves. So if the book helps him or you figure that out a little bit better than just wanted to share that. Jordan, you're super close with your in laws. You happen to have a great mother-in-law, but do your parents ever get jelly about the time you spend with them? If they do, I don't know anything about it. I mean, my parents live in Michigan and Jen's parents live like 15 minutes away. So I see, as I mentioned earlier, I see Jen's parents like every day. Her dad comes over in the morning to take care of Jaden while I do Chinese

lessons and do some work. Her mom comes over in the evening usually also with dad. We have dinner multiple times per week. I think the secret for us, my parents don't get jealous. And if they do, they don't say anything. My parents are pretty reasonable. It would be weird if they were like, well, you see them more than us. It's like, well, you live a thousand miles or two thousand miles away and they live 12 miles away, like, or five miles away or whatever it is. That does simplify Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense. The other thing is my mom grew up with kind of crazy parents and my mom realized they were crazy early and was like, I'm not going to be like that. My dad's kind of the same. They get along well with them. And I think they also realize that

the jealousy wouldn't do anything because it's a logistics thing that we can't see them as often. And we call them all the time and we send photos every day. And Jen, actually, this is pretty slick. She texts my mom and dad photos of Jaden multiple times per day. Oh, wow. So they can't really get upset about anything. They're about as included as they could be living that far away. They are more included than any parent who lives anywhere. You could live next door and not get that many photos of a kid.

Right. It's pretty slick. I think it's a pretty good strategy. I know she's deliberate with it. She's close with her family as is obvious here. And she's always like, call your parents, call your parents. And then she'll call on her phone. So my parents love her and she does a really good job at it.

I think they would get jealous if it was like, let's go on a trip with my parents. Oh, your parents can't come. You know, that would be, then my parents would be like, what the hell's going on here? But Jen does a really good job of managing this. I'm oblivious, as one might expect. But Jen does a really good job with that.

So this sounds a little extra, though. This is like daughter-in-law is doing whatever is possible and mother-in-law is trying to kind of like be sneaky. Call her back when I'm not there. Or call me back when she's not there. That kind of stuff, the drama stuff. Yeah, this one's much trickier than other families. The sad thing is that the mother-in-law is really getting in her own way

because the more she does this, the less they want to hang out with her. That's why I'm hoping that they can resolve it, because if they can, then everybody wins. Indeed. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and or services?

You can always visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. All right. What's next? Hey Jordan, team. I've been managing creatives for three years without many issues, but as I have moved into a bigger role, my direct reports have also become more senior. I have no issue giving my less experienced employees direct feedback and clear expectations, but I'm having trouble getting the most out of my senior level employees. If I give them too much direction, they don't like being micromanaged. But if I'm not super specific with my expectations, they tend to drop the ball and not manage their time well.

I'm planning on reading difficult conversations and radical candor so that I can better communicate with them. But do you have any advice or insight on getting the most out of your senior level staff? I'm starting to question if I have the right people or if I just need to make management improvements on my end. Signed, Managing Up in all senses of the term. Managing is tough. Managing creatives is tough.

Managing people of different ages is tough. Thus, this question is tough. So, Gabe, this is mostly going to be your department, but I do think that it is important to calibrate your tone and your approach with older employees. Sort of sucks that you have to do this, but it is possible. I'm just guessing here, it's possible that your ambition and success might come across to these employees as a little bit of self-righteousness and even arrogance. Not that that's what it is.

It may just be a generational thing. It may be a personality thing. Just be sensitive to the fact that they might have their own feelings about a younger person being promoted above them, essentially. I don't know how I'd feel about that, candidly. Don't apologize, don't censor yourself, but just be mindful of how you come across, be mindful of those suspicions. You might also need to communicate differently with your older employees.

Maybe you need to take some extra care with your emails. Maybe you need to find topics that they care about to discuss in your free time. This is no different from learning to connect with a younger employee or an employee from another country or an employee with a totally different background. it's just about knowing your audience. Don't fire off a meme to them when they drop the ball and then send them terse feedback on Slack.

You might have to tailor your message a little bit. On the other side of the equation, watch how you relate to employees your own age. In my experience, it's really easy for older people to feel alienated around younger people, not because the younger employees are trying to alienate them on purpose,

but because there's such a large cultural gap between generations, and it's hard to ignore. If you only sit with people your own age in the cafeteria, although that's probably not a problem right now during the pandemic, if you make weird Snapchat references in meetings or something, if you only solicit input from the younger folks, older employees are probably going to feel slighted. And you might not even know it. Talk to any older person about this. They will tell you how often they feel accidentally othered and marginalized.

I hate the word other. It's so stupidly woke, but marginalize is better. It's a powerful feeling. And yes, it's their job to keep up with the time. it's their job to build relationships with younger people. It's their job to stay relevant. But it's also your job to make them feel needed and included and make them want to stay relevant instead of just like, I'm the old folk in the office. Where's my new job? I'm going to get fired. That's what a good manager does. Gabe, what do you think? I think that is excellent advice. You know, the more he can treat these

employees as employees rather than as older employees who need to be managed differently, you know, the better. I say that because it's very easy as a young person who's conscious of their age in the office to accidentally create that younger person, older person dynamic when it doesn't actually need to be there. I'm not saying it's not a thing. I'm just saying it's easy to reinforce it when you go into every conversation thinking, now how would an older person want to hear this feedback? You know, so I would try as much as possible to treat them the way that you would treat someone your own age, frankly, the way you would treat anyone who is just a good employee and to expect the same things from them and see how far that goes. At the same time,

time, do not tiptoe around your older employees, right? If they sense that you're treating them with kid gloves because you're uncomfortable or you're scared, then they will probably start to think that they can get away with more, which might be why you're not getting the best work for them. And that is true of all employees, right? It's not just the older ones. So the more upfront you are with them about what's working and what's not working, the more they'll be invested in the relationship with you and the more they're going to show up when you really need them. But if none of that works, then I would communicate pretty openly with these employees about how they actually want to be managed. If they tell you that they feel micromanaged with you, then you can back off. But if they don't deliver on the expectations that you set,

then circle back with them and say, look, I totally respect that you don't want me hovering over your shoulder. I don't like that either. Totally understand. But after we talked, you didn't do the thing that you said you would do, and now we have to do this extra work, right? So help me out here. What can I do to make this easier? Do you want me to be more involved along the way? Could I be more clear about what I need? Make it a conversation, right? Make them tell you where the breakdown is. that might force them to realize that they really are dropping the ball or just that they really do want to be better managed by you. And at the very least, you know, talking about it will give you more intel about your employees before you make some more drastic decisions. If you really give it a shot with these folks and you're still not getting what you need from them, then I think it might be time to make some changes.

But I would not write off your older employees just because they're older or just because you think you're too young to manage them. It's not fair, right? and it's potentially a huge missed opportunity for all of you. So I say dig into it and find out what's possible. Last but not least, Gabe. Hey, Jordan and Gabriel. Now that I've been working from home for several months now, I've gotten a view into my coworkers' lives,

and I feel that they're oversharing a lot of intimate details. I don't mind a little chit-chat with my colleagues, but I really don't need to hear about their sex lives or that they hate their kids. Coincidentally, the thing they did to get their kids in the first place. Oh, man. When this happens, I usually abruptly and loudly say, okay then, well, I've been reading about such and such.

That's awkward. I know metallurgists slash metallurgists are not known for having big social circles, so we have the tendency to be friends with those we work 80 plus hours a week with. I love my job and I work with a great team. I just don't want to be close friends. So how do I change subjects gracefully when I feel uncomfortable with someone oversharing or asking intrusive questions? signed the metallurgist or the metallurgist still struggling to human.

I don't know any metallurgists personally, but based on your description, they do sound like the stereotype of super smart scientists. You don't really get into this because you're like, oh, man, I just want to play Xbox all day. What's an easy job that'll let me coast by? People who would rather talk about the oxidation of non-ferrous alloys or whatever than hear about Linda's kids' little league game or whatever position her husband likes in bed, I mean, these are thinkers, right? And everyone's different. Some people love being close with their colleagues like that, the small chat, the gossip, the story swapping, the Kamasutra position comparisons, whatever. Other people like to keep a stronger boundary at work. They keep it polite,

keep it brief, just focus on work. Both are fine. It's totally fine for you to keep more of a distance. That said, I'm curious why you find their chat so uncomfortable. For me, I think I wouldn't care. Is it because you don't really like these people? I'm not judging you if that's the case. is it because your time is so precious and you feel like they're wasting it? Again, I'm not judging you. I can get behind that too. Or is it maybe because the topics they bring up are uncomfortable for you and there's something about being close with these people that makes you feel some kind of way. I'm getting the vibe from your email that it's a mix of all of these things. But more of the latter. Again, I'm not judging it. I'm just noticing. You might want to explore that. What is it about knowing about other people's lives, intimate details that rubs you the wrong way? I wonder if you grew up maybe in a family that wasn't super close? What does that intimacy bring up for you? Does it make you feel like you are actually over exposed to them like they expect you to share and return and you're not because you're not comfortable with it? And so you feel a little bit judged by that. I'm spitball in here, but this is actually really important. Not just for you to know about yourself. Meaningful relationships, they all involve some degree of intimacy.

And I wonder if keeping your colleagues at arm's length might be holding back your relationship building. trust, rapport, connection, goodwill. These are so important, and they are really hard to cultivate when you're not truly invested in someone else's life. I'm not saying you need to know that weird thing Linda's husband likes in bed in order to be a good colleague. Gross, by the way. But I do wonder if you're cutting these conversations off before a real relationship can begin and these people are feeling a little rejected. Gabe, any idea how he can politely deal with this? You know that sort of tact is not my usual strong suit. Fair enough, but I do think you are dead on. I was wondering the exact same thing. I was like,

I don't know if I want to hear about the husband stuff or the wife's stuff. Like, I get it. You don't want to hear sex stuff at like 845 in the morning. Like, look, I'm an evening sex person. I don't need to hear this right now. Keep it for the happy hour when I'm, yeah, when we're done with the non-farous alores or whatever that was. But I did wonder what was kind of going on beneath that. But look, if this is the way that he or she wants to relate to colleagues, fair enough. So to answer your question, how do you change subjects, graceful? when you feel uncomfortable. I don't know. I would set a certain amount of time, let's say five, 10 minutes for that kind of chat, right? You can keep it friendly, keep it light. Don't indulge in gossip or BS if you don't want to be a part of it. But, you know, don't reject it either. And just call that you're connecting with colleagues time, right? Have a laugh, let them vent, maybe share something you feel safe sharing for you to-cape, speed it up, man. I'm getting bored over here. Cool, cool, cool. Don't feel subconscious about the rest of my answer at all.

Whatever you feel safe sharing, I don't know, that's probably like, I read a great e-book this weekend. Ah, missionary, huh? So, I've been watching. Yeah. I had a great mission the other day. I went to the supermarket. I don't know what you talk about. And then, you know, you just say after that, okay, I've got a ton of stuff to get through today.

So if it's cool with you, you know, let's get down to these manganese chromium alloys or whatever, you know. Yeah. As you can tell, Jordan and I have a supreme command of what metallurgy. Yeah, we're pretty limited. It's oxidation and corrosion is kind of where we leave things. Alloys, I think pretty much covers all of it. Alloys. For all we know, she's probably like making pots and pants for restoration hardware or something.

I don't know. Anyway, if they do ask you intrusive questions, you can always just say, you know, I don't have much going on in that department, right? I'm pretty boring these days. Sorry. Or you can just shut it down straight up. Like, that's totally you're right. Who knows?

Maybe you just work with a bunch of gossipy, annoying a-holes, and it's time to start looking for another job totally possible. But I don't know. I think the answer here is a happy medium between keeping these people at a distance and oversharing yourself. So learn to open up a little bit more, be willing to connect when people reach out,

but define that boundary for yourself as long as that boundary is not getting in the way of you building good relationships. It seems like there's maybe more going on. I mean, unless the writer here, Gabe, is closed off because these people really aren't her speed. That's fine. But I hope that she or he have good close.

friends that do talk about this kind of stuff and that they share it. Look, if these are your boundaries and you never want to talk about that, that's fine. I'm not judging you. But I think especially right now where everyone's stuck working from home, a little horseplay on a Zoom call, it's kind of a nice little relief, don't you think? Yeah, I agree. Like, it would be different if he or she has, like, a husband or wife at home they get to talk to every night and two best friends who get together like three times a week, like getting these relationships nurtured and fulfilled somewhere else. And then with these people, it's like, can we just talk about the pots and pans? Please, like, I don't need to hear about everything else. That's a little bit of a different scenario. But even then,

don't you want to like have some relationship with your colleagues in the middle of the workday? Don't you want to be able to connect with people? Avoid that Zoom death that everybody's going through in the pandemic. I would, certainly. So I think that's a good point. I hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Go back and check out Guy Raz and Harry Hirstie, if you haven't yet. If you want to know how we managed to book all these great people and manage relationships. It's all about systems and tiny habits. Check out our six-minute networking course. It's free on the thinkific platform at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Don't do it later. Do it now. Dig the well before you get thirsty. You don't need a

credit card. You don't need anything. I'm not trying to sell you anything. All the stuff is free. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. It's been crucial for my business, my personal life. Find it all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for this episode or at Jordan Harbinger.com, a video for this interview or this feedback Friday. That's on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. Transcripts also in the show notes. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter, Instagram, hit me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast One and my team, Jen Harbinger,

Jay Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Our advice, our opinions, and those of our guests, those are their own and our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. Here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. Tell me about the neighborhood where you grew up. South Central Los Angeles. Yeah.

Well, most people played a game, Grand Theft Auto. Yeah. So I'm sitting on the porch, and I don't know what I'm going to do. And my partner calls me, and he's like, man, I got the new thing. And it was cocaine. Cocaine was really, really expensive then. Yeah.

You know, a gram of cocaine back then was like $375. Wow. So it was dozens of times more expensive back then than it is now. Like 300 times. Wow. And it's also the most expensive thing that you can fit in your hand that cost that much money, Probably. Maybe you have watched. Yeah, absolutely.

At that time, they said cocaine was more expensive than gold. How much money are we talking about here? I probably was making about 55,000 off of a kilo. I think you made up around a billion dollars in the 80s in LA. That's what I heard on the documentary. For two years, I made like $600 million. Not profit for me, but money that went through my hands. Before I started making a million every day, we was making $500 every day.

Before he was making $500, we made $400. before he's making four, he made two. Before he's making two, he made a hundred. So you scaled up to a million dollars a day? Yeah, yeah. I had days that I went through three million dollars in one day. How are you even counting that much money? Oh, you have money counters.

Yeah. And you have a team of girls that sit there and they count money all day. You know, you have a house, and this house would have like a slot in the door, and people would just come in and drop duffel bags through the door. So I wanted to know what was the difference between real business and the cocaine business? this. And what did you find? There's none. For more of Freeway Rick's story as one of the biggest drug dealers of all time, including his ties to the CIA, check out episode 121 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something

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