The Jordan Harbinger Show - 441: Russell Brand | Finding Freedom from Our Addictions

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

Russell Brand (@rustyrockets) is a comedian, broadcaster, actor, podcaster, columnist, political commentator, mental health and drug rehabilitation activist, and author of twelve books — including Recovery: Freedom from Our Addictions. What We Discuss with Russell Brand: How the concept of the twelve-step program is applicable to all forms of attachment as a tool for transition. Why does it usually take a serious crisis to spur people toward seeking help for their addictions? Addiction is really the result of reaching for something external that already exists internally — but exists in a place that’s either unknown or inaccessible. Do we really overcome addiction, or is it an ongoing struggle that requires constant attention and maintenance? What does addiction want? And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/441 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger show. That adolescent idea of, oh man, the system, this is all bullshit. I don't see things like that no more. One of the things that continues is I'm optimistic about people. I think people are beautiful and that people will change.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show, we have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional economic hitman.

And each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. Today, we've got a real fun episode for you. It's from the vault. Look, this episode almost didn't happen. I'm so glad that it did. We ended up recording it in a green room at NBC Universal in L.A. after Russell Brand had just done the morning show.

He was completely beat, and his people kept trying to feed him during the show, which made for a pretty funny setup. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see that we are in a tiny little room, and I'm in this weirdly low, yellow chair, which was ridiculously uncomfortable. And I had to lean way back and then lean way forward to be in the conversation. But it didn't matter at all. We clicked right away. Russell and I had a real conversation. Everything from addiction to beekeeping. Yes, he keeps bees.

That is totally random mindfulness, mass media. there's some philosophy in there as well because it's Russell Brand and you know how he is with all that. There's some fan boy questions in there because I was slash am a fan of Russell Brand for the past several years now. He's maybe not my style of comedy per se, but he just seems like a, well, he is an amazing guy. And he's one of the first guests I ever wanted on any podcast. 14 years ago, I thought it would be cool to get a guy like that on him and Jay Moore, as old-time fans know. So now I've got to rack my brain and think who else am I going to cross off the Jordan Harbinger? show podcast bucket list here.

This episode was a hell of a lot of fun. I hope you enjoy it as well. And if you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors and thinkers and celebrities every single week, it's because of my network. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free. It could help you get a job, could help you with your career upward mobility, could help you make new friends. If you're moving to a new place, could help you meet your significant other.

I'm teaching you all that at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. It's a free course. You don't have to enter your credit card details or any crap like that. I'm not one of those guys. And by the way, most of the guests on the show, I get a tip or two from them and I throw it in the course or the newsletter every single time. Come join us.

You'll be in smart company. Now, here's Russell Brand. Congrats on the book launch, by the way. Not your first book, but still a big deal. Yeah, I'm very happy with this particular book. I'm proud of it. I love it. And the thing is, is because the program in it,

the system in it, that's not invented by me. So you don't have to worry because I'm potentially an idiot. I could come up with all sorts of mad ideas. Right. The program is like 100 years old. The 12-step program primarily invented to help people with serious chemical dependency issues in your country, America, 100 years ago, nearly. I think the principles within it are applicable to all forms of attachment,

and I think that it can be nothing less in the right context than a kind of secular religion. Most people that get involved with 12-step programs go, oh, wow, everyone should be doing this. This is because, of course, once you yourself have got rid of drugs and alcohol one day at a time, you start to realize that drugs and alcohol were never the problem. The problem was your own emotional state, your own reaction to the world. So you have to start working on them. And the 12 steps works on them. In fact, that's the function of it. The first thing you do it with drugs or alcohol with food, you stop taking drugs. You know, if it's food, you have a structured way of doing it. Then you

start following these steps. It's about inventory and yourself. It's about treating people differently. It's a complete tool for transition. It sounds like a self-help program that you only get to when you have seriously run out of options, which is a problem because it seems like you should be working on that stuff before you run into the problems themselves. That's exactly right. It's like that I wouldn't have done a 12-step program, were it not for the fact that I was on the precipice of serious mental health and criminal judicial issues. But the problems that I had prior to becoming a drug addict, continual, the way that I related to food, the way that I related and used TV, was all problematic. and that's exactly it. Why wait for crisis?

Or like your life may not provide you with crisis, you might be someone that's just coping, being in crap jobs, crap relationships, not really happy. It takes as its premise the quite simple notion that you deserve to be happy, in inverted commas, content, free from pain, free from suffering,

which I suppose, again, is the foundational point of all religions. Like, right, you're here, you're going to die. Do you want some sort of system, or are you going to just try and cope with it through masturbation and buying stuff. Oh, try masturbation and buying stuff. All right. See you with a deathbed.

You know, like, the reason the book starts with talking about death is because one of the sort of visceral things that I feel is that a lot of people you meet in the world. And like, even people in my own family, I think, when is it that you're going to be who you actually are. I know people that I feel that when they are on their deathbed are going to go, this isn't who I was. Right. They're clinging.

After all that. Yeah. This is in a way, a sort of an awakening. or an awakening system or code. But as you said, Jordan, most people don't engage with it until crises. Why do you think that is? When you were growing up, when you were looking at the problems that you were experiencing, why do you think people look to one thing and not the other? Why do you think people look to substances instead of working on the problem in a way that's, is it because it's harder? Is that it? Is it that simple? My personal theory is that it's to do with our way of

life, that we live in a system that tells you you can make yourself feel better by getting stuff, by buying stuff, by doing stuff. And there is almost no way that is presented to you in ordinary and realistic terms to deal with your inner life. Why do people drink? I'm not even talking about people who drink problems, anybody. They drink because they want to feel good. They want to go out on a Friday or a Saturday and feel good. Well, there should be other ways of feeling good. Feeling good shouldn't be something that needs to be facilitated by an external agent. It should be something that you have an ongoing relationship with. The reason I think the world is like it is because I feel that we have quite a deep and all-encompassing capitalist consumer system and we can't see the edges of it.

We are all within it. We think about life in those terms. You think about life as a commodity. Is it worth doing it? Look at the bees that we were talking about already. You have the bees in order to get the honey. The idea of just have the bees. You're not commodifying it. We default to commodification. So I think that creates a mindset in us that we are looking to consume, always looking to acquire. And these are not original ideas. They're relatively like I suppose when Guy de Boer, a French situation, he says, we live in a spectacle. We are losing our contact with reality.

We are living in an externalised way engaged in your profession or whatever your job is. And when you get home, you're a consumer. Sit and watch that TV, buy stuff. and now people carry their advertising devices in the palm of their end. In fact, because we work in a form of media, which means that's bloody useful to us. It's not all bad. But the reason that we have excessive drug addiction, excessive alcoholism, food issues

is because people are constantly reaching for something external that's already in them. Do you think it's that people don't know how to get that out of themselves or they don't know that it's there at all? As an addict, I feel like the drive is slightly stronger. I think a person that develops chemical dependency issues, develops them because they are not happy. They're like, oh no, is this life? I'm going to die.

I'm expected this is school, is it? Well, this is family life. Well, this isn't going to work. You better give me something else. And because the world tells you, well, it's going to be outside of you. And no one tells you giving you ideas on prayer, meditation. You look to resolve it using some external agent or method. Like, people that are in recovery groups have found a different way of dealing with their feelings.

I had a question before, how do you get addicted to eBay? But I assume it was just like everyday looking for something new on eBay. Why eBay and not Amazon, for example? I've never personally had those kind of addictions. More with me, it would be social media, say, like tech stuff. And what I mean is, I think addiction is something that you do a lot, it's not good for you, you don't want to do it, and you can't stop. Compulsion.

Yeah, compulsion and obsession, I think, are two of the ingredients of addiction. Now, if you're obsession and compulsion is about a substance, it gets bad fast, and if it's about behavior, you can carry it on longer. Like I put on there sort of social media and stuff, because I do notice I stare at my phone a lot and I often don't feel better after looking at Twitter for ages. Twitter will definitely not make you feel better. Out of all of the social media,

Twitter will make you feel the worst, the quickest, because it seems so anonymous and so easy. And it's kind of like every time you go out there, you get those little jabs. On Instagram, you know, you're looking at them, they're looking at you. Most of the profiles aren't anonymous on Facebook, for example. Twitter is just like, it's useful and yet as cesspool at the same time.

Oh, it's a useful cesspool. It's a bear pit. Yeah, a bear pit. Yeah. Like, is there any healthy balance for you? Social media is good, but I have to cap myself at half an hour. Are you just like, I can't look at this at all anymore? I think with the chemical dependency, abstinence, if you're a drug addict, you cannot take drugs one day of time. If you're alcoholic, can't take drugs. Gambling, I think you can't gamble. But like food and sex, these are life-giving things. They're natural things. We have to find it. a structured way. And I would say that social media belongs in that category.

So me personally, I don't anymore have my Twitter password. Someone that I work with does that. So I'll go, here's a photograph and a thing. And maybe once in a while they'll tell me some stuff that's going on on there. Or with Facebook, I've never had it. So I can look at my Facebook page, but I can't go in it. And with Instagram, I post stuff. Otherwise, I'm sensitive person.

And I'll get too affected by it, even negatively or positively. It's like you went, right. I'm only going to use social media for half an hour a day between 4.30 and 5, that's when I'll listen to social media. And then if you try and do it and you can't, it's like, well, there you go. You've learned something about yourself. You aren't capable of keeping it to half an hour. So that tells you you're not in control of it anymore. So that's, you know, in a way, step one, you've got to then admit you've got a problem with social media. It seems tough to admit you're addicted to something because it's obvious when it's cocaine. It's obvious when it's alcohol, maybe not for a lot of folks, but it can be.

but when it's computers, social media, or shopping, it's really easy to couch or sex. It's easy to couch that in something else, especially for somebody who is well known to the world to realize they're addicted to sex and not just having fun. Do you remember that process? Because at some point you must have been like, this is awesome. Every woman that I fancy I can go after and get, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And then at some point, you must have gone, actually, this is really bad for my emotional well-being. Addiction is a bit of a blind spot for me sort of oddly because as someone's thinking, I'm clever, but then sometimes it's revealed to me that I'm not because my behavior is so dumb,

you know, but like with sex, it's interesting because I feel like, well, I'm an adult, I'm attracted to adults in my case of the opposite sex, adult human females, it's all pretty vanilla and innocuous. And like when I first got famous, it was like, I felt like I was addressing the previous circumstance of not feeling good enough, not feeling attractive, trying to address that. It was so exciting and felt kind of validating. And of course, sex is fun anyway. I mean, that's the point of it. I suppose, you know, using the model that I've just said, doing it, it becomes problematic.

You can't stop it. Well, it becomes problematic when you think, oh, I might like to be in a relationship with one person now. And you try. And then you sort of can't because, one, I think people that have a lot of sex with strangers often find intimacy with one person challenging. Is it because you're spreading it out thin instead of going deep? Yeah, that's a really simple way put it. I think it is that. And I think that intimacy with a stranger, for most people I know they've had issues around sex, intimacy with a stranger is kind of lovely. You don't know them. And then you have that sudden excitement of sex and you're kind of connected to them in that context. And it's, you know, I used to joke about it. It's because like, I can have sex with a stranger because I'm not thinking about any other information in that person's life. I'm not thinking, oh, no, her brother's got diabetes. Oh, she might be worried about this. What if that happened? No, they only exist in that context. In a way, there's something spiritual about it. You're in the moment. There's no judgment. The connection is very pure. The type of.

stuff that I was into at least. But like after a while, I think that that means that when you do know somebody, it seems almost absurd to sort of be intimate with them and the kind of physical proximity and the frequency of sex. A lot of people, my age, and God knows what it's like if you're younger. Pornography is what I learned sex from. I don't know. No one taught me, all right, this is what it is to be a man. And if you're into women, this is what women are like. Or if you're into men, this is what men are like. And this is how we treat each other. And this is what it should feel like. and this has to be loving. It was just like,

yeah, look at these magazines, look at these videos. It's not a very good template, really. When you and I were kids, you had to find a kid who had the magazines, and you might have been the kid who had the magazines. I had a neighbor who had those. And then maybe when I was 14 or something or 12,

one guy had a tape that he had stolen from his uncle or something like that, and you had to wait, and your mom's not home, and you know she's going to be gone for two hours, and your buddy comes over, there's a lookout and everything. Now your kid could be in the back,

seat of the car with you while you're driving and he could be on form hub and you would have no idea. It's unbelievable. The same is kind of true with drugs with like what's called spice in my country, those ever-evolving sort of smokeable drugs. Like, you know, they're salt, I think we call it. Bath salts, that's right, in your country. Now, you can buy them online. Your kid could be using drugs. So like the way that we treat addiction has got to change because addiction is changing because like you say, your kid could be in the back of your car looking at a porn hub or ordering online drugs unless they have access to a way of addressing that and the feelings that are motivating them towards that. Yeah, my experience of porn was similar, but looking back, I recognise,

I was just trying to make myself feel better. Of course, it's natural when your sexuality is awakening, you're looking to express it. But is it the correct way to be looking at images again and again, you'll starting off on the path of your sexuality regarding the people that you'll be having sex with as an object. That's the beginning of objectification is happening right there. For me, I was doing a lot to make myself feel better as well. It's like, oh, this makes me feel good. It's a distraction. I'm not in myself when I'm doing this.

And you're right, it's terrifying the idea of the access to pornography that kids will have now. It seems like drugs and things like that, people might say, hey, man, look, you ever think about you're doing too much of this? Guys don't get that with sex, right? Your friends never go, look, man, you're having too much sex. We need to tone it down. People are going, you're my hero. Yeah, that's right. And I noticed that a lot of how I would relate to men,

I felt powerful among men because other men knew that I would sleep with a lot of women. Now, what I have since learned is that a necessary component of that was that I was not respecting what it was like for the people I was having sex with. I mean, what's so amazing about being famous is people that are willing and excited and up for it and there's a constant flow and it's sort of unbelievable in one respect. It sounds pretty good right now. It does sound good when I'm so. saying it again. But the problem is, of course, now I know, now that I'm awakened, one moment

at a time, that these are human beings. And once you realize, oh, they're probably doing that for their, they've got their own motivation because they're not going to feel any better for having sex with a famous person, except for the brief moment of orgasm, which I did use to try to guarantee, Jordan. Other than that, you know, you're involving yourself in an exchange that isn't necessarily going to be beneficial. So I'm participating in other people's unconscious behaviour. And for myself, what lies on the other side of addiction? That's what's interesting. What lies on the other side of the compulsion? See this. When you want to look at social media and you don't, what happens to you? You start to get anxious. You start to get nervous. You want to

have sex with someone and you don't. What happens? You start to get nervous. You start to get anxious. Well, you have to go through that pain at some point because if you live constantly confined by your unwillingness to go through pain, you do not develop into who you are supposed to be. I lived in that cycle. It meant I became kind of stagnant spiritually. So if you mean that you have to go through that cycle of pain in order to get through the addiction,

did then the addiction start because of pain? Yes. Addiction begins with pain and ends with pain. You're in pain, you introduce some secondary agent to deal with the pain, then that might even make you feel worse, so you're back in pain and you do it again. It's very obvious when it's drugs. It's less obvious when it's pornography. People feel ashamed. If someone's trying to be faithful in a relationship

and they sleep with other people outside the relationship, they feel ashamed when they do it. And then the feeling of shame is so bad. It's not always the right thing to tell the other person who gets the worse. They do it again. Food, it's the same process. People, you feel awful. You're in pain. You feel lonely. You eat too much food. You make yourself puke. You feel ashamed. You do it again. At some point, this cycle has to be broken. This is one of the same. You feel awful. the things I've found myself saying, and I think it's pretty true, Jordan. We don't choose between having a program and not having a program. We choose between a conscious program and unconscious program. We're working a program. I've got a program already. My program is, I want

drugs. I want sex. I want people to like me. I want money. I want prestige. And if I don't intervene with that, like a sort of a waterfall, it just rushes away. This program makes me awaken. One, there's a problem, whether it's drug, sex, porn, food, relationships, whatever. One, there's a problem. Two, it's possible that it could be better because I see other people not living like it, other people that work the program. Three, I've become willing to be teachable. I become willing to look at things in a different way. I come willing to accept help, whether it's from a community or from a higher power, a spiritual idea there. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Russell Brand. We'll be right back. And now back to Russell Brand. I'm the Jordan

Harbinger show. How does that fit in with your career now? Because you can't not have prestige. and do the job that you're doing, but you have to then sort of short-circuit the addiction part of the prestige. The method and that perspective of addiction that I have is that addiction as a drive, if you drill down, this thing is a will to power, whether you call it obsessory and compulsion,

whatever it is. It's like it's a yearning, a hunger. What does it want? What does it want this hunger? Once I'm awakened, I'm sort of, I can watch it a little bit more. For me, I'm not going to become a yogi or a monk or someone that lives in a cave and meditates all day.

That's not, I don't think, my path. I'm going to be involved with the material world. I have a wife. I have a baby. I've got bees, damn it. Yeah, you've got bees. There's no going back. You can't abandon the beers.

You can't un-be yourself. What it changes is that I notice, like when I'm doing this podcast right now in this moment, I'm thinking, I hope this goes well. I hope this will be the best one of the podcasts that Jordan has ever done, and it will get the best figures. Now, when I see myself thinking that, I just go, that's just that habit you have in your mind.

Don't take it too seriously. Your thoughts become the first layer of the outside world. Your cognitive activity, your thoughts no longer define you. You start to recognize it as just a pattern in your mind. Oh, I always think stuff like that. Don't worry about it too much. And I go, oh, no, I'm so shallow. I want everyone to love me.

It's going, yeah, that's just a habit you picked up somewhere. I had tried to be the experiencer, the consciousness that watches those patterns. and when you have undergone this program, that perspective becomes easier to access. It is by no means permanent. That's why you get people that get to the top of the mountain, priests, yogi, swamis, and then you find out they're all having sex with the people in their communes. You're like, oh, all right, okay, I trusted you. It happens not just in Christian culture.

It happens in like, you know, sort of in far out places where Western people like me really think, oh, no, they've got the answer. They're in robes of shaved dead. You find out they're doing the same thing. Unless you stay moment to moment vigilant about your patterns, they will reassert. That has to be kind of scary to know that as much work as you've done

to get through addiction, you're 15 years almost clean, right? Yeah. That if you let your guard down, you could be back to square one. Is that not intimidating a little bit? It seems like that would be scary for me because it's like you keep walking away

from the cliff edge and then you turn right just to check and see how far away you are and you realize you've just been walking along the cliff edge for 15 years. It's a good metaphor. Thanks. Well, yeah, but we are all walking along

with Cliff Edge. In a way, the addiction just makes you address it. All of us have just one decision away from destroying our lives, really. You can, in traffic, get in a fight with someone, you punch them, they hit their head, they die, that's your life now. Oh, man. Or like you cheat on your wife because someone is nice to you and you felt vulnerable in that moment, or you take drugs and you overdose. You know, it can happen. But I think you can guard against these things by having a kind of a spiritual awakening by being connected or whatever the answer is, it ain't in my head because if it was, I'd have found it by now. Right.

All I've done my whole life has tried to be happy. It's not working. I need help. Write down all the things that are fucking you up or have ever fucked you up, don't lie or leave anything out. Make a thorough inventory and there's a particular technique for doing that. Honestly, tell someone trustworthy about how fucked you are. You start involving other people.

Now, when I done that, it taught me that I didn't need to be so ashamed of myself, that all of the dark, dirty little secrets that I carried, the guy that I told was like, yeah, that's no big deal. I did something about that. Some level, I think we all think we're unlovable. We wake up at 3 a.m. Oh, no, I'm worthless. I'm crap. I'm not good enough. Or like, that's not real. It's just a sort of a pattern that you're carrying. And by telling someone else, it alleviates you. Most traditions have confession in them. You know, you observe. When I did the inventory, the memory I was, the way I got in trouble

at school is the same way I got trouble at MTV. The way I go in trouble in Hollywood, same way I go in trouble in politics. I have a pattern. I get into a place. I get loads of attention. And then I do something mad. I've always done it. And I do it because of pride, self-centeredness, aspects of my ego. Then the step of the seventh step, right now you know that, are you willing to live in a new way that's not all about you and your previous fucked up stuff? You have to. It's like, well, okay, am I willing to not do that? Now, think of the thing we're talking about lust, you know, the pornography. It's easy in this room to think about that. But if I'm on my own late at night,

the feeling comes, oh, maybe I will look at pornography. Am I in that moment willing to take a different course of action? Am I willing to call up someone else and go, yeah, yeah, listen, I'm in this moment thinking about, one, using drugs, two, cheating on my wife, three, pornography, four, eating food and making myself puke, five, texting that guy that I know is no good for me. You know, like, if you're prepared to make the phone call, before you do it, the person will go, okay, well, remember, we've done all these steps, we've done all this inventory, we know where this leads. Are you going to do it yes or no? And that sometimes gives you respite.

That's why you work it one day at a time, one moment at a time, because it will always come back. you are always walking along the cliffhead. I like that analogy. Once you've done this process, you realize you've hurt a lot of people in your life. Prepare to apologize to everyone for everything affected by you being so fucked up. So you prepare to apologize.

You just go, you write down all the people you might have harmed. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's got to be a sobering, pardon the pun, list of people. It can't be a short list. No, I'm old. You know, like there's loads of people. And a lot of those people, do you know what you do?

You go, yeah, but they did this. Yeah. You're not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to do that. You're going to mind what they did. What did you do? and you just put down your stuff and like you've completely eliminated. EG, like my stepdad, if I think, oh, my stepdad, I weren't very nice to him when I was a kid.

But my next thought is, yeah, but I was just a kid. He's an adult. I don't know that. He should have known better. Yeah. But that's not going to help me change going he should know better. That's where I am already. I need to change my perspective.

And to change my perspective, I have to go, forget what he did. I did something wrong. And then the next step, now apologize and they start to make things worse. So I get myself to frame of mind where I'm becoming willing to go, without any of the parentheses or caveats go, why I behaved when you were with my mom, it was not acceptable, I apologize for that, it must have hurt you, it must have been very

difficult for you, I'm not that man anymore, I don't live like that, and I don't treat people that way anymore, apologize, is there anything else that I did that you want to tell me about? And if there's anything I can do to make amends, I'll do it. And once you do that, your consciousness has changed, you've hacked into your patterns. You can't do that all at once, though, because if you

apologize to people and say, is there anything else you want to go back and forth, there's probably a lot of people that go, you know what, now that you mention it, there's a whole lot of stuff you did when we lived together a while I was raising you during your college years, blah, blah, blah, when we were married. You got to be taken some, not abuse maybe, or maybe abuse from some of these people, whether you deserve it or not. You go into it consciously and you don't go into it alone. That's the ninth step for a reason. You've already done these previous eight steps. You're already a different guy by the time you get to that point. And also, importantly, you do it under the guidance of a mentor.

So one by what you go in the men are right. I'm doing the one with a stepdad now. Okay, so what are your expectations? How do you see it going? What are you going to say? What are you going to say when he says this? An important part of it, and in fact, the best part of it is the bit where they go, you don't know this, but when you did that, it made me feel this,

and you just have to sit there while someone tells you, and you think, oh my God, my actions really hurt other people. And the reason it's called an amends process. It's not just restitution and apology to the other person because it amends you. you think, I'm not doing that ever again. I don't ever want to hurt someone the way I've hurt that person. People that just, we'll be like extras in your life, people that you just pass by in a crowd scene.

Right. Oh my God, I damaged them. So now when I'm walking down a corridor, access Hollywood, or wherever we happen to be, we could be in any number of places. That's right. Could have been that. Could have just chosen the outside of my head.

Went out of down a corridor. I'm polite to everyone. I'm polite. I want no one coming away going, he's dick that guy. Yeah. I can't take no more of it. There's a lot of responsibility,

especially for somebody who's in the, spotlight. But what choice do we have, Jordan? That's the realization that you come to. You're not giving anything up because none of that stuff works anyway. It's not like, yeah, but no, no, I can't be an arso anymore. Like being an arseau wasn't working anyway, otherwise I'd have carried on doing it. Having sex with everyone weren't working. Being obsessed with fame and money, it wasn't working. So you're not giving up anything real. Every so often, of course, you are seduced again. What's important here on what I'm trying to do, which I think is a bit hard, is that I think there's a lot of stuff in religion that has been sort of booted out in the secular age because we all know the complications with religious life,

the violence, the bigotry, the institutionalisation, etc. But in religion there are stories that are about the human psyche and the human condition that are indispensable. Oh, it's a tough gig this. Like, well, look at the myth of the Egyptian sun god Ra, who nightly wrestles with the serpent of darkness so that the dawn may come, knowing that the dawn may come, knowing that the the next day he will undertake the same battle again. I mean, of course, that helps early people to have some relationship with astronomy and astrology and all that. But it also helps you to understand.

This is life. Every day, Sisypheus, who daily pushes the rocks to the top of the mountain, knowing that tomorrow he does it again, Prometheus, who has his guts pecked out by the eagle for stealing fire and giving light to mankind, knows that the next day his stomach's going to heal and the eagle's going to peck it out again. This is it. Accept it. There is suffering in life.

We're going to die. So the choices are. are you going to be beautiful while you're here, or are you going to make stuff worse? Now, the problem I think we have is the culture is saying, we are going to make it as bad as possible. We're going to exemplify and constitutionalize the worst aspects of human nature.

Greed, selfishness, these are going to be our politics now. I'm not even talking about recent events, although obviously, yes, but capitalism generally, materialism generally, an age of darkness, an age where we only understand what's growing, because we've forgotten how to go within. And this simple program for dealing with yourself

means that I has just one little unit within it, I'm doing my best. With the severe and underscored caveat, I'm still a total fuck-up, and I still every day will do stuff that's selfish and make mistakes and being patient with my wife and make mistakes with my kid. The guiding light is I'm trying to be good.

I'm not just going, yeah, but that's life, who gives a shit? So what, it doesn't really matter, does it? So what? Yeah, it's my wife's lucky who have me. Who cares if I sleep with some other people once? I mean, I can go that way. All of us, we can all go that way. We're all comprised of, you know, good and evil.

It's a commitment and intention, a programmer method. Speaking of wrestling with good and evil, you were a vegetarian since you were 14. That means then at one point in your life, you are not willing to eat meat, but you were willing to, like, do crack or something. How does that work? What was going on there?

Some of it's about identity, I think. Yeah. I was a fan of the Smiths, and I just found it impossible, not to translate my sort of love of animals on a kind of, oh, that dog, I found it possible to not translate that. I shouldn't eat that animal over there. It became sort of propulsive mentally and a nice commitment. Drugs, although you're a pain in the ass to other people, it's a self-destructive thing. You're trying to annihilate the self. You're trying to get beyond the self. So it's

yourself you're harming, really. So the vegetarianism, I must admit, there were probably late-night relapses at burger vans out of my mind on something. or another where I urge from that path. But I see the paradox of being like a vegetarian crackhead. Yeah, so unusual. But I think it makes sense with your earlier constant battle that's going on. It seems like almost like there's an element of, all right, well, I can't control this area of my life.

So maybe I can try to control this other area and be strict enough with it. And also the addiction is a little bit about control. You can control it. You can get heroin. You can get crack. You can alter your state of mind. mind, much harder to control another human being impossible, ultimately. What I liked about being a drug addict is you're just on your own.

I wasn't very sociable, just on your own doing drugs, shutting down all nice and comfortable and all of the pain melting away and the tight fist in my belly opening up. Problem was, is in the end it stopped working and it got worse and it created worse problems. So I needed to find another way of alleviating that tension. and thankfully I found it in that program. So I think addiction is a sort of way of finding control, finding meaning, finding order, finding connection in a culture that doesn't provide it,

doesn't know how to provide it because it's too busy turning you into a component in an economic machine. Why write this book now after being clean for 15 years? You know, why not write it earlier? What sparked the interest suddenly in this? Because it's not like you just recovered, you're like, I'm going to write a book on this.

I mean, you've gone through this process for as long as us, the public, has really known you. Because I think at this point, I understand it, and I understand it well enough to know how little I understand it. I'm at a point where I can say, whilst I've written this book, anybody that's got clean time could have written a book.

I still have to spend and enjoy and love spending time with other recovering addicts and recovering alcoholics and people with issues around all manner of compulsions. And when I go and spend time with them, I'm not like sat in the middle, blanket drake around me and dramatically lit. I'm just another one of them. And it's a relief to be another one of them.

There's a relief to know that I'm still, like you say, on the cliff edge and that I could fall over at any moment. I'm not better than anybody else. I don't have that illusion. I lost that now. Sometimes I can be a bit grand and a show off, but I know that I'm no better than anyone else. But the relief is I know I'm no worse than anybody else.

I'm just a normal person. You see in that film Punch Drunk Love, the Sandler movie? time ago, yeah. There's a bit in it, right, where after he confronts Philip Seymour Hoffman, who's been bullying him on the phone, like after he's been real meek and he's been easily bullied, there's a bit where he just confronts him finally and goes, I'm a nice person, I'm a nice person. And the reason that it's sort of beautiful and moving is because he's not saying I'm

great or I'm powerful or I'm wonderful or I'm invincible to say, I'm a nice person. It's such a simple little aspiration. I'm a nice person to just be a nice person in the world. So I suppose if I'd have written this a while ago, there'd have been much more, I'm the new Jesus about it. Now, I'm always attracted to being the new Jesus. Why not? I mean, part of the point of Jesus was saying that there is a consciousness accessible to all of us that is within us. The kingdom of heaven is within. The way to God is through I, the way to God is through the self. It's about the God made flesh. It was about God is within man. God is not in the constellations and the stars. God is in your belly. God is telling you, don't do it. that that was wrong. No one else is telling me don't cheat. No one else is telling me don't speak badly to people if you don't think they can do anything for you. My guts go, that was cruel what you just did. Like who is that in there? Saying that Jiminy cricket asshole kicking me in the guts.

So, you know, now it's written from a perspective of fallibility, an ordinary real fallibility about the ordinary real aspiration that ordinary people can have that we can all have together to be beautiful. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Russell Brand. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening to this show. Look, your support of our advertisers,

that is what keeps us going here. We link all of those advertisers on the deals page. You can go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support us. That's what keeps the lights on. That's what I don't sell a bunch of crap on this show. You know, I'm not like, buy my course about making money online. I don't do that because you guys are doing a great.

job of supporting the sponsors. So go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals, pick up a mattress or something, you know, no big deal. And don't forget, we've got that worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. And now for the conclusion of our episode here with Russell Brand. How do you prioritize your different passions? On the one hand, you're comedian, actor, public personality, thousands of people constantly interrupting you and trying to get your attention. But on the other hand, you're creative, so you need to carve out massive amounts of time to be creative, create books, create great comedy. I would imagine that requires a lot of solitude. And these paths maybe appear to contradict, right? You have to be in the limelight. You have to be accessible.

You have to be interacting with people, but you probably have to carve out a piece of your life to think deeply. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to do it. It's contradictory, and it's changed since I've been married and had a baby before my whole life, even though I was cleaned from drugs for a long time, the behaviours were carrying on around sex and the behaviours were carrying on around the obsession with the work itself. Now, I have a wife and I have a daughter, and these are so compelling and so absorbing, like my baby and my wife are with me on this trip. So when I'm in the hotel room, before, maybe there would be a stylist and, you know, who would have been a good friend of mine if it's, you know, on hair and makeup, I'm also a good friend. My life, the focus, the pinnacle of

my life is the showing off in those times. Now there's a baby, there's baby stuff everywhere. So you can't, but be ordinary, it just ground you and it smashes you your ego and your face actually sometimes in so many bloody ways, violent trial. And I've sort of learned it's a very, you know, one way, practical thing. Like I do stand up three nights a week back in the UK. I've written this book and I know that if I don't spend time at home, if I don't spend time around other addicts, I'll go all wrong. So I've got no choice. And like the last three steps, funnily enough, are the maintenance steps. One of you've done like the making amends and the things that we've already talked through.

10, watch out for fucked up thinking and behavior and be honest when it happens. If I'm out today and I start thinking, that's the point where it starts to be real. If I start thinking, oh, that person shouldn't have said that or this should have done that or that should have solved more, I go, ah, that thing's happening. It's happening again, right. Stay connected to your new perspective. That's why I need prayer and meditation because part of my life is solitude. It doesn't matter if this goes well or if this goes badly.

I'm going to be sitting down for half an hour with a candle, in my case, looking at a picture of Amma, the great hugging saint, who travels from India and does nothing but raises money and helps people and sleeps on foot. She's just like an unbelievable figure. You know, like that will be part of my day. And the prayer part of it, it reminds me of the principles that I want to live for by what I'm grateful for in my life and how I'm supposed to treat people. And number 12, and the point of all of this, curiously, look at life less selfishly, be nice to everyone, help people if you can. Like, so this whole journey deposits you in a place where you're trying to be of use to people.

And again, every day I will default back to, should I buy this shirt or not? Do I look cool in this photo? I don't like that person said that. But I don't just accept it, justify it, pursue it. I remember, oh no, God, have you done anything for anyone else today? No, all I've done all day is thought about myself. I'll go out and I'll try and help someone and be productive and constructive.

And those things, that's changing you. I mean, I don't know much about neuroplasticity. You'll be surprised to learn. Yeah. Apparently, consciousness alters as you do these. things. Yeah, absolutely. We talk about neuroplasticity all the time on the show. You know when you see a road in a hot climate and it's got the little dimples where all the cars drive? Yeah, it's a lot like that, right? So when it's hot and that asphalt heats up, cars drive along

essentially the same way or a hiking trail that is carved in a grassy area. You can see it because people keep walking on it. That's essentially a very oversimplified way of how the brain works. So if you start different habits, you can start to create new neural pathways. The problem with things like addiction is that those old pathways that you've treaded for a decade and a half or whatever since you were 14 years old, those are still there. And you know that from experience, whether you know about neuroplasticity or not, because if somebody were to hold you down and force you to do a substance, those pathways are the light up like crazy and you might have a hard time stopping. Again, so now you've got your new habit, which is this green juice, and that's a more healthy

habit to have. But as you know, any habit done to an extreme can result in something negative. You could end up surrounded by corn-made cups and have missed all of your appointments and haven't hung out with your family in three months because you got addicted to this green juice. Wallowing in kale in the bathtub. I'm not going anywhere. Bring me more kale. Yeah, exactly. It easily happened. And one of the things about the spiritual life that is fascinating to me is the way that they somehow,

thank you for explaining that so well, the way that they intuited information that we can now demonstrate materially and anatomically and medically, they intuited that. So this system, of course it was the 12 steps, which was only 100 years old, but it was taken from a Christian group, the Oxford group, which was older than that. And these principles are perennial and universal, and they're found everywhere.

Like with the mindfulness movement, they say, oh, Lao, if you meditate, you know, like it's good for your blood, it's good for your heart. Oh, is there anyone else that were saying that you should meditate like thousands of years ago before scanning was available? Yeah, well, what else are those people saying? Because I think there might be other stuff in there.

You know, it's obvious that there's a lot of stuff that's in religion that are cultural inflections of the time that they were written, bigoted, prejudicial information, practical stuff that doesn't seem relevant anymore. Sure. All of that. The things that interest me are the things that are found in all religions. That's the stuff that we should be focusing on.

If it's found in all of them, there's a kind of something that's coming out of the human consciousness that's truthful. And so now that it's found in the religion of our time, which I accept is more science-based and empirical, and that's a bloody good thing and it's given us so much. But we should look to which of those principles were already, present. And that's just one example. You can act yourself into thinking differently. You can't think yourself into acting differently. You can act yourself into thinking differently, but you can't

think yourself into acting differently? Yeah. I like that. It's good, isn't it? Yeah, that's really good. A lot of these things are like things, these are sort of the folk wisdom of the 12-step program. Do you ever think, all right, I've got a baby daughter, oh crap, I've slept with a lot of women. This is what men are like. Does that ever worry you? Or are you just kind of like, look, Not yet on one level because I sort of see it, like maybe you know, talk to me again when she's 16, but like, or hopefully 25. Sure. You should be so lucky, but like, what I feel is I don't know what type of a woman she's going to be. The other sort of thing is I'm going to teach her if she's up for it to not do stuff to make her feel good just for the sake of it, to be a grounded, connected person.

And the only way I can do that is by being grounded and connected around her. Now, I know all parents go into parenthood with those objectives and all sorts of curveballs must come flying in from every direction. But my hope is that by being conscious and awake around her, she won't go, oh, I'll feel great if I drink a lot. And if I sleep with a load of people, I'll bet go, oh, no, I'd try that. And it does work temporarily. But here's some boring stuff.

Right. Would you like to try this green juice, man, ma' ball? You'll find that infinitely more satisfying. Yeah, it could be tough, especially with a teenager. I know. It could be extremely tough. Well, you know the score about neurology and both. chemistry, that she won't even have the mental facility.

It literally doesn't arrive through the mid-20s to understand certain aspects of reason I was listening to. She will, however, have the mental facility to tell you that you don't know anything, you don't understand, and you never could understand. And then she's going to read this book and probably, with any luck for you, curl up in a little ball and go to sleep and realize she dodged a bullet, right? I hope so. I hope so.

You were on Colbert last night. That was your first time on the show? Yeah. How is this stuff for you now? I mean, this aside, is that stuff still fun? Or are you kind of like, all right, this is part of the job. I'm used to it by now? It is still fun if I do it, right?

I recognize that something like this, talking to you, the reason I love this medium is it's sort of kind of oddly old fashioned in a way. It's less constructed. It's a lot more room to unpack and examine ideas. It's more free form. It's more intimate. It's more real. Something like going on Colbert is a performance.

That's what I'm aware of. And I noticed while I was doing it, I thought, oh, God, I'm acting. funny, you know, I'm pulling, like, doing silly stuff with my legs, I'm leaning into him, I'm being antic and daft. But I kind of like doing that, you know, it's a laugh to do that. And another thing is, I recognize my own snobbery, because, like, going on to daytime shows that are built around entertainment, I sometimes think, I read very deep scriptural texts, I analyze Nietzsche, I don't think that these people are going to understand me, but I go on, I realize that I'm from that background, whether you're, you know, whether it's a very deep scriptural text, I'm

entertainment or growing up watching that stuff. And these people are just people like me. They're interested in the same things I'm interested in. And funny enough, a few of those shows I've been on, I've been given a little bit of a wake-up because they're like, they've been sort of like, oh, my cousin's a drug addict, or my relationship's codependent. They've spoken a very plain way.

I've been like, oh, brilliant. Well, this is what this is about. So it's been actually that cuts adolescent idea of, oh, man, the system, this is all bullshit. I don't see things like that no more. One of the things that I maintain, and there's a continuum of the last book I wrote, was a revolution. It was all about, like, changing systems and anarchism and deception in the media and sort of my understanding of Noam Chomsky and learning and trying to distill important academic information into an accessible format. One of the things that continues is I'm optimistic about people.

I think people are beautiful and that people will change. When I'm going on populist TV, I don't think, oh, I'm too good for this. I sort of think, no, these are beautiful humans. This is going to be brilliant. And they're looking to you both to be entertained and for you to make them think. Or do you think people are looking at you to be entertained and then you're kind of like, let me slide some entertainment in there. Then here's something that's much more important.

I try and do both of those things. When I'm listening to people giving me spiritual information and advice, I love the theoretical stuff. But when people tell me a story about I did this and this is how it felt, I like it. And when people tell me stuff that's funny, it really impacts me. So being put in the conditions where I have to be entertaining is not a drag. It's like a kind of joy. As long as I look after myself, I'm overtired.

Then I can be a bit, I don't know, like, oh, God, do this bullshit. Yeah, I wondered if that was going to happen today. I was like, maybe we should just do a really short one because he might be really tired. No, it's been a joy to talk about it. And it's a context in which I feel comfortable. You're obviously a very intelligent person and you're obviously tuned into what's real and challenging yourself and willing to be open. I've been watching you and your eye come.

contact. You're obviously going through things yourself in life. It's lovely to be able to communicate with another person. Well, I appreciate it, man. I appreciate you and I appreciate this. What is next for you, by the way? Doing a lot of stand-up. I'll probably come back to this country, America, and do stand-up soon. I may do some acting, sometimes read a film script and think I'd like to do that. What else will I do? I don't know. This is a weird time in my life. I've sort of always used to know. I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do this. Now I don't really know, but I feel all right about it. By the way, the back of my head is in your comedy special at the improv from about four

years ago. Oh, wow. Cool. Right in the middle, too. And I thought, oh, man, we had to do this thing because we were in those first rows where they're like, you've got to sign a waiver because if you turn around this way, your face is in there, maybe. Oh, thanks.

It was cool. I was cool. I did like it. You know, it was interesting because I went with a group of people that I had decided, they had done some pretty shady stuff to me years and years ago. Oh. And they called and they said, will you come and go to this Russell Brand thing with us? And I said, no, because you guys did all this stuff.

That was really shitty. And they said, actually, that's why we're inviting you because we all want to apologize. And we all want to make up and take you out to dinner. And we would love for you to come to this comedy thing with us and the night on this feel good note. And that's exactly what happened. Oh, my God. I was a tool for reconciliation. You were. Absolutely.

Excellent. So thank you very much for everything. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you. I've got some thoughts on this one as per usual. but before I get into that, I wanted to give you a quick bite of a recent episode I did with Simon Sinek. He's been on the show a couple times. Simon is one of the most sought-after speakers and mentors in the corporate world, but he's no stuffed shirt.

Well, here are some of his wisdom from the elite levels of public speaking, as well as his organizational skills that keep him at the top of the game. I have a vision of the world that does not yet exist. I'm trying to build it, and whatever it takes for me to advance that vision, speaking, writing, teaching, whatever it is, I'll do it. I remember when cell phones were just starting to show up. You know, there was this great promise that we could leave the office because of this device. And in reality, it backfired is we don't leave the office, the office comes with us.

Right. We're always at the office, you know, because of the device. One of the things that happens when we take the office with us is if we're not constantly engaging and checking in, we actually feel guilty that we're not. You know, you're walking to the subway, you're on the device. If you're off the subway, going to the office, you're on the device. We take the phone with us to the bathroom. You hold it in and look for the phone.

You know, there's something unhealthy about that. That's so true. You know? When we're not connected, we actually feel guilty. And the reality is, is that ideas don't happen when we're connected. Ideas happen when our minds have an opportunity to wander. And this is why we have our great ideas in the shower, when we're driving, when we're out for a run, when we're just going for a walk. Because the brainstorming session actually isn't the time to solve the problem.

The brainstorming session is the time to ask the question. Allowing ourselves these disengaged times is absolutely essential. for innovation. It's absolutely essential for problem solving. It's absolutely essential for creativity to disengage with the device. The problem is, I don't know when it's going to happen. When I was writing Leogers Eat Last, I would have so many ideas in the shower, and I would forget them as quickly as I had them, that I kept a dry erase marker in my bathroom, and I wrote on the tile. And so as soon as I got out of the shower while I was brushing my teeth, I'd write an idea on the tile. And so when I was standing there the next day, brushing my teeth, I'd be staring at my writing on the tile,

and I'd sometimes have another idea. And so it looked like a beautiful mind. It was ridiculous. All the tiles had these little chicken scratches all over. And I didn't want to raise any of them because I didn't know what ideas were going to be smart. But my point is, is like, if you figure out what works for you, do that. Keep a notebook by your bed. If you go for a run, take a notebook with you. I usually carry a notebook in the back of my pocket at all times because I don't know when I'm going to have an idea. And like I said, I lose them as quickly as I have them.

For more from Simon Seneca, including why it's important to have a worthy rival to stay sharp, check out episode 300 right here on the Jordan Harbinger show. Big thank you to Russell Brand. The book title is Recovery, Freedom from Our Addictions. The lovely book. If you're interested in this sort of thing, I do recommend it. This interview almost didn't happen, like I said, they pitched us, which was a huge virtual pat on the back.

And I tried to get him for years to do the show, no response at all, as it goes. And then one day out of the blue, hey, would you like to interview Russell Brand? It's like, yes, please. And the day before that, they're like, look, he's not feeling good. He's really not feeling well. It kind of just wants to cut the tour shorts and just fly back to the UK. and I said, look, I'll fly to the UK, but I did book a flight and hotel to L.A., and I don't live there anymore, and they're like, all right, fine. So the sympathy card works, people. They just talked with him,

and he stayed. He freaking stayed, and we did the show. And I'll tell you, look, he's a great person, and I'll dig into that in a second, but I've got to tell you his people, his people, his assistant, Charlie's so nice as well. And that is highly unusual for a lot of times. These folks are just kind of untouchable, and the people around them are, they're a little testy. But at first I was thinking, these people must be new, or maybe they work for somebody else, and they're just subbing for him. But everyone I dealt with in the email chain and in person when I met them was just so incredibly nice and polite. They weren't all British, because I know that's what you're thinking.

Maybe they're just Brits. And I thought, that's so strange. They must not work with celebrities that much because usually people who work with celebrities, in my experience, they don't always fall on the side of patient, nice, carrying responsive folks, I should say. But it reflected well on him, and I'll tell you when I met him, he was also incredibly nice and friendly. Just what you hear on the show is the real thing he doesn't turn it on and off. You know, he was super present, very real and interesting, as you heard here.

I got none of that fake comedian vibe that you get from a lot of folks. And Russell, of course, is charming. That's his like major, major trademark, I think, major hallmark. And you know from every interview, every movie, everything he's ever been on. But it's different because it really does feel genuine in person, for those of you who are going to ask me about that, as you always do when I have a celebrity on the show. So yes, Russell is just who he appears to be on media, which is great in person anyway. If you're ever fortunate enough to meet him, you'll immediately want to be his best friend. Let me tell you that. Links to the books and everything will be in the show notes. Please use our website links if you buy books like this one because it helps support the show. Yeah,

we get like a quarter for each one or something, maybe, like maybe half a dollar. I don't know, not even. But it adds up. Worksheets for the episode are in the show notes. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of this interview going up on our YouTube channel, recorded in a tiny closet of a room with GoPro cameras. That's going to be at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six-minute networking course, which is free, over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course.

Dig that well before you get thirsty. Most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course in the newsletter, or they help contribute to it. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jay Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie O'Campo, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's a Russell Brandt fan or maybe climbing through an addiction or dealing with somebody else who's climbing through an addiction, share this episode with him. I do hope that you find something great in every episode of the Jordan Harbinger show. Please do share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you

listen and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not,

the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.